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And it's recording.

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Welcome to the 22nd, 22nd, am I correct?

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22nd?

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Yep.

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Perfect.

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22nd hour of the 24 hour frog talk.

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Has it been that long?

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We have no idea anymore, trust me.

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This is always amazing work.

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Thank you, thank you, we really, really do appreciate the compliments because holy fuck, it feels like, I feel like I'm on a drug that I've never tried before and this is insane.

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Honestly, very happy to have you guys on.

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I'm going to actually, I want to ask you guys a little question and then I'm going to leave it off to Walker or Roy or Tenal because I want to finish eating my lunch, starving, but I wanted to ask you Will and Vanessa, what do you guys love about Nostra the most?

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Like truly, like what is it that you guys, when you think of Nostra, it's that thing that comes to your head?

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Well, I guess for me, I feel like it's the place where we can kind of plant our flag of independence and freedom in cyberspace.

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And if you really feel that, you know, you can sense that in the culture, whereas I don't know, I don't know if I really get that from like activity pub or blue sky.

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It's like, it seems like those types of those protocols are trying to build just another kind of like walled garden of like keeping people out they don't want.

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Whereas it feels like Nostra is really about anyone can join and just be yourself, and I just, I don't see that very in many places online.

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So that's what gets me excited that we have that this space to do that.

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Yeah, I guess mine is somewhat similar to that in that I've never been a social media person or an online, really an online person at all and I find that this space is just so welcoming.

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I mean, this is a perfect example of what you guys are doing here where, you know, you feel like you know people really well you feel respected, I hope anyways people do for the most part.

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So it's just, it's a safe place where you can have some fun I mean I think some of the posts today, indicate that.

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And yeah, you don't feel as though, you know, people are judging you for what you're saying, which is something that I always kind of feared about posting anywhere else in the past.

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I want to say for all of us like I think I'm saying this for all of us Vanessa your presence on Nostra has been such an incredible experience and I'm so so glad that you decided to start posting and feel comfortable to do that because I like I feel like

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it would not be the same without you and I'm just so happy that you, you're here.

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Aww, that is so sweet. I love being here and I love everybody's posts and the support has been absolutely incredible like we were just saying before we jumped on here.

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A year ago if I had said hey you know what we're going to do on a Saturday afternoon we're going to sit here together and talk to people all over the world about something that we're passionate about.

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I would never have believed that would be happening so it's amazing so thanks everybody.

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Of course, like, honestly I don't think I, anybody thought that they were going to be here, you know, like it's so incredible that we're all just here now and we're like hey let's spend all these hours like they're just like oh let's do a 24 hour stream for Nostra

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and it's like, it's just so incredible because who thought like a couple years ago that we were going to be here and like, so thank you guys for developing and always be being there and just helping the creation of all of this.

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So many things have come out of this, this 24 hour stream already. I mean, we've discovered that people thought that Roya was Tatum. Perhaps there's a new, new podcast in the works with a between me and Tatum and Roya and Carla if once she gets back into

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the land of the living.

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It's, wow. Just wow.

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Thanks for building tools we can all use guys. We appreciate you.

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Right back at you, although I'm not technically building anything but learning, learning at least.

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Well I have a question if I can sleep it's okay for me to throw in there right now. Sure.

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So well I did see, I saw, you know, we're now following each other on Blue Sky as well which is nice. Now, we're back and forth on Twitter and Blue Sky and Nostra. I'm curious what your, like if you've played around with it at all if you've looked at their tech stack at all the AT protocol,

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just like what your thoughts in general are I mean I, I, I keep, like, I like to test things I'm trying out this guy because it's like well why not this new thing why not try it.

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But boy it's just, I mean, I don't know if it's just the general vibe of the people in there or like the lack of any sort of discover ability via hashtags, or any of that but it doesn't hit quite the same.

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So I just love like your thoughts if you've played around with it at all or from the tech stack perspective what you think.

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Yeah, I haven't done too much a deep dive into the tech, I've been mostly the same just kind of like doing an anthropological study of the type of people who are on it and it's it's interesting that it's a much different vibe there like you said you know it's

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more of the, you know, all the popular kids who are on Twitter type of thing if he's like you know AOC is there. You got like, I guess, I don't know, Drill I think he's there now I don't know there's like all these like kind of like famous people you know from Twitter,

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or like in the cool kid club and like from like Silicon Valley or something I don't know I don't know what the vibe is but it's just, it doesn't feel like a pleb vibe.

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So that's the first thing I noticed. And again, the technical side of things that's hard for me to evaluate because it seems like right now they're kind of just running a single node, which is like the blue sky node.

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So, it might be possible for it to be more decentralized in the future but I haven't yet to see that. And I'm not I'm curious to see how like if I get banned from the sky node like how do I transfer my account things like that so there's a lot still unknowns

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about it. I'm kind of the same boat I'm just kind of like playing with and seeing how things work and it seems it seems fine as like kind of like a dumb down version of what nostrils right now but it's, who knows right.

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Yeah, it's it's it's interesting because like, okay, you've got a little bit of discover ability with like the, the what's hot, which is fine but it's like okay if something gets you know eight likes and sorry about that guys.

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Eight likes I think it shows up on there. I'm curious if they kind of doubt that they're going to implement any sort of like Bitcoin layer on top of it, just given the kind of vibe, it seems like the kind of place where if you bring up Bitcoin, like a lot of people will.

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You know, not resonate with that too much. Yeah, it's the it's the Twitter cool kids like yeah, exactly. Tech, tech bloggers, you know, side of things I don't know but I felt very much like Macedon when it when you first joined like a lot of people are on the far left and like very

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lenient against Bitcoin, not a lot of Bitcoiners. And it was interesting when so Jay made a comment. She was saying that, you know, the current algorithm is if you get eight likes you'll show up in the what's hot feed. But if you invite someone who gets banned, your reputation is affected.

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So let's say really then they have the they have the power to remove you if you invite people who are who other people find offensive or something. So it's like there's like they have an internal reputation system which you can't see. So they're already starting to do some type of shadow banning. That's like their number one priority apparently.

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And that's just like, this is where you guys are starting off like just like go right to the shadow. But the reason why people are leaving Twitter, it just seems bizarre to me but that was a weird thing to me. I noticed that like a lot of the talk because obviously like I'm following like the

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the devs and people who are working on their team. A lot of the talk has centered around moderation, like that's like their number one concern is moderation.

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And it just seems like kind of, I mean, I guess that's just a different approach right it's a more centralized mentality approach.

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But like you, you know, you'd think you'd want to at least like make hashtags work on there. Like before figuring out how you're going to just make sure you ban people like you're just you're creating a true Twitter clone.

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Yeah, it just it sounded like they're the main focus was to keep all the bad people who didn't agree with their thought they want to have tools like ban those people so I'm sure once the coiners arrive so I suggested like hey we should try to, we should try to bridge these

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walls that could be kind of cool. And then this guy who like apparently worked at Google Buzz or something that or Google, or whatever the suits there, some guy who worked on their social network at Google he was like, Well, I don't think it's a good idea because

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would bring a lot of people who aren't culturally aligned or something I'm like, so you want, you want to create a culture of like the early adopters, and you don't want to invite people who aren't like you it just it just seemed like they're trying to build

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this elitist club of people and they're trying to keep people out that didn't agree with them politically. So it just made me very uncomfortable that this is what they're they're sort of talking about like right now is the most important thing to them.

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That's, that's, that's, that's really weird to like the idea of like that you need to be culturally aligned to use this like that doesn't, that doesn't smell like an open network to me.

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And it sounds extremely permission. I mean, it's even interesting the way they're rolling it out with invites, like the fat and I get it a little bit of gate keeping to build up some bottles and maybe works out some of the keys.

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But like, it just feels like such a legacy model.

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Yeah, like how decentralized is it if like to get on you need permission from, like, I don't know, like there was like theorize a nature really could have this model where it's like invite only, so sounds like they're kind of doing that they're gonna like a single node

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Relay where they have invites. But you know, I like to see more nodes before I evaluate

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how good this is. You know?

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Yeah. Well, I appreciate your your insight on that. Just was kind of curious because

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it's a it's it's no no stir. I'll say that I mean, I had to put in my damn email to sign

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up. What the hell?

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Yeah, Dacity.

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It's like, what year? What year is it?

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God, you want my you want my social security number to like,

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Do you want to fax something to sign up? What is this?

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Is Paul Krugman developing your back end right now?

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Well, I never got an invite, so I can't speak.

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Oh, yeah, sorry. I invited a lot of random people last night.

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I've actually received a whole bunch of those invites and I don't know, nothing has really

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interested me in terms of visiting it and going to see what it is. I know I should have

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a more open mind at least and explore it. But you guys are building such an amazing

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product, such an amazing platform. And yeah, most of it is going to be products. I don't

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even know why I like try to. But yeah, it's it's fucking incredible. Like, I'm not going

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to fucking like waste my time any like going to look anywhere else. I know there's no second

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best. Just it applies. It applies to Bitcoin. It applies to to Nostra. I've noticed that

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the same things that like almost like they have way too many similarities.

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Yeah. And if they're just focused on like the social media aspect, like that's fine.

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And that's cool. And maybe that might be slightly more scalable with their tech. I mean, I haven't

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been able to evaluate that. But you know, that's just so boring compared to what's what's

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possible in the master. Like we're already starting to see like these highlighting features

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that we want to roll out. Like they probably don't even have anything in their database

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like schema that would allow for the stuff that we're doing on Nostra. So yeah, it is

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interesting. Like they seem to have just like, like really approached it like they were just

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trying to build like a slightly better version of what already exists versus trying to build

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something that is completely new and can be expanded upon. Like it seems like it's it's

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just already like it's just creating another silo. Like, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Enough

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about blue colored apps. Let's talk about. Yeah, we ban blue in the Dama. Yeah, no blue

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talk cloud. I want to ask you, well, I've heard many, many times again, especially throughout

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these 24 hours, that it's increased, that it's actually super easy to develop on Nostra.

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It was mentioned that it's it's actually like one file, a JSON or something like that. I

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kind of like it's a it's a little blurry in my head. But can you kind of like explain

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a little bit about that in your, like, your experience like finding master and developing

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for Nostra and how how the experience has been? Yeah, it's like one of the as a fun

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little thing I did one day, I wanted to see what like the smallest amount of code I could

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use to like to get a working Nostra app. And I was able to get it down to I think like

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about 10 to 20 lines of JavaScript code to like, get notes from a server and display

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them on a web page. And that just that just really shows you the power. And like this

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wasn't with any libraries, this was just like basic web sockets in a browser. So that when

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you can do something that when anyone can do that, like any kind of like, you know,

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10 year old who's just learning programming, he just started to learn JavaScript, like

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they can just write up a small Nostra client, like, that is very, very powerful. And it's

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like, there's no gatekeeping there. It's just open, it's just accessible to anyone. And

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that's what we want. And I know I don't I don't feel that with any of the other protocols.

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That's why, you know, I was actually working on activity pub before Nostra, because I was

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trying to make an activity pub node, but it was just so complicated, spent like a year

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trying to get a note up and running. But I was able to get a Nostra client working like

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a weekend. And you just I don't I don't think any of these other solutions can even touch

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that in terms of just how easy it is to develop on.

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Yeah, it's it's incredible. I keep hearing about it. It's um, it the I keep hearing that

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it it actually scales in, like in layers per se, with a

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public problem. He's like making a new app every like day.

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Last night I did this.

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Yeah, I had him on. I can't wait to hear. I don't know if you got to hear a little bit

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of of his talk. He has so much energy. There's no denying that he does everything that he

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says he does. That man has incredible energy. He my whole mood changed when I was here speaking

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with him. I remember my energy was super low and he comes on and boom, I go to 100 like

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out of nowhere. Incredible.

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I was mentioning on one of my posts, if you guys haven't seen it yet, the the talk that

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Will and Envy K and Jeff and Pablo did an Odell, right? Yeah. The other day. And if

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you put it on like two times speed and between Pablo and Envy K, it's really fun to listen

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to them because the energy is just, whoa, it's a lot. But it's fun.

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What was my oh, sorry. I just want to check whose page it was on because I'm literally

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about to go check it out. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's Envy K's podcast.

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One review. Bitcoin review. Oh, got you. It's worth a listen. It was it was I thought it

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was great, even though it's very technical, but it's also really funny. They made it fun.

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So awesome. But that's another two hours of your life. So you might want to take a rest

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for only one hour. I know it's hard at two times speed. It's impossible to understand

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what you guys are saying. I'll say it for you. Go ahead, Roy. I'm sorry. Oh, no, don't

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be sorry. I'm sorry. I will say that Pablo is my roomie for No Street Good. I would I

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would wake up every morning and him and Jeff would just be coding for five hours straight.

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I would have to be like, hey, guys, do you guys want to do something? And then just be

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silent working on something. They were working on like five different things for those couple

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days. And I was like, dang, on then onto a new thing. And they're like, yeah. And they're

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just like typing real fast. And I'm like, OK. I think that's part of what makes it fun,

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though, right? Is and I've heard a couple of people talk this week about how they like

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to be sort of involved in the development process, even if you're not a tech person,

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but just to see the changes and how quickly people are able to make fixes even. I think

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Terry mentioned the other day, you know, like, yeah, they're coding all the time, but this

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is what they're passionate about. And to stop that actually wouldn't be a great idea because

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they're able to make these changes in real time to make the experience better constantly.

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So true. And it's so fun to watch. Like I was just watching them and I was like, it's

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so cool how they can just sit there and create these really incredible things that helps

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us grow and do so many things. And the process of them talking to each other was just like,

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it was just so fun to watch. And I think it's also an amazing thing about Nostra is that

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you we the developers and the non developers, we just all interact with each other. And

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I think that's like so cool that we just are like all talking instead of just being so

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separated. Yeah. So this process is like a very common experience if you're like within

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a startup where it's like you have like an internal team and you're going back and forth,

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you do a lot of iteration. And then once you guys are happy with once you're happy with

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it, then you push it out to the public. But in some sense, the Nostra community is the

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startup and everyone inside of it is iterating together. And it's a very much different,

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much different experience than what you're used to if you're interacting with a large

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company where they just ship everything like maybe every like two months and then you get

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feedback. But no, it's like you guys are like in it and are helping guide the development,

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which is really cool. Honestly, like just watching things evolve on Nostra has made me like want

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to relearn to code. Like I learned to C++ for like a couple of years when I was still

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like 16, 17, 18. And then got pulled in other directions. But just watching what you guys

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are able to do and without the backing of these giant companies or these big teams,

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like it's really inspiring. And it makes me want to be able to contribute in a more meaningful

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way. Not that I'm going to be changing the world with any code that I write, but at least

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to be able to be more proficient on my own. Like and to be able to do so, so that if I

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have an idea that I can actually like implement it in at least a basic way, like, you know,

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it's really inspiring to watch you guys. We appreciate you.

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Yeah, it's interesting that we've, you know, I think there's a whole generation where,

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you know, we've just been interacting with corporations instead of protocols. And, you

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know, there was a limited thing you can do if you were, if you were a developer, you

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might not have not wanted to get into programming because, you know, everyone was using Gmail.

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Everyone was using Twitter and there wasn't like much to hack on the stuff like that.

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They might've been interested in hacking on, right? But, you know, social software is really

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interesting to hack on because it's like, it's very personal and it's like, you can

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interact with a lot of cool people and we've never had the opportunity to kind of build

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in the open with a, with a tech stack like this. So it's really exciting for like a whole

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new generation of developers who are just getting into programming and they can like

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build stuff that actually impacts people in like a real way, which is really cool.

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I would say coding or not Walker though, you guys are changing the world for sure. And

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contributing in so many awesome ways here beyond the coding. So well done.

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But the code is why we're all here, right? That's, that's where I get back to it's like,

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I, you know, I think that we all play the hands that were dealt and sometimes we can

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by learning new things, get ourselves some better cards. So like whatever one's strength

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is you should, you know, utilize that strength. But like, I'm also tempted very much to try

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and strengthen myself in other ways, just because I like the future will be, no, I don't

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want to say run or owned because that implies more of a centralized mentality, but the future

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will be built by people that are developing on Noster and on Bitcoin and people who at

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least have the technical chops to be able to create something out of nothing with a

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few lines of code. Like that is really, really powerful. And again, I, I, I, I manage a software

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team. So like, I'm great at writing pseudo code, but I should probably figure out how

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to write some actual code.

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Do it. Will can provide lessons.

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Well, honestly, honestly, chat, gbt is like a really good tutor.

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I've been using it a little bit. I was like, oh, I want to create a broad, like a Chrome

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browser extension. Like, how do I do that? And it's like walking, walking me through

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everything. That's actually a huge, like something that was not even, did not even exist is now

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something that anybody can access. So like, that's a really like, I don't know, democratizing

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force, I guess, as long as I wish it was open AI was actually open. Oh, yeah. That's a different

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story. Bit of a misleading name.

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I was so skeptical of chat gbt when it first came out and I tried to like really stump

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it. I tried to give it the hardest task that I could think of. So I just something I didn't

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know how to do either. So I was like, I want to build a simulation of the space time deformation

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around a star. I just like something impossible. You know, you have to be a physics genius

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to do it. And it like, it took me about like an hour or two hours, but I pure programmed

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with it and I was able to do it. And after that, I was like, Okay, this thing, this thing's

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gonna take over the world. This is very scary. I love that that was like where you started.

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You're like, let's see. Just, you know, possible. Yeah, just an average question here. Let's

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build a little space time. Okay, I had to ask you like 1000 questions. But if I eventually

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got got the solution, it was like pretty blown away by that. So it's I'm, I'm just I'm super

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bullish on it. I just Yeah, I wish it was more open.

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Have you tried using auto GPT at all through either the command line or through any of

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the like web clients that have been built out around it? I saw that actually chat GPT

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is releasing an alpha to basically do what auto GPT does. But I'm just curious if you

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played around with that at all.

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So I saw it in operation. I haven't used it. But the when I saw that solution that it immediately

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made sense to me because one thing I noticed when I was playing with chat GPT for like

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those three or four days, and trying to learn how its power, the number one thing I thought

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was it was limited, I could feel that it was limited because whenever I gave it any any

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like output of the program, so typically would give me like, hey, here's here's the program.

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And it usually wasn't right. But and a lot of times, you would just get the program wrong.

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But if I gave the output of that program to chat, tbt, like, I realized it couldn't run

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the software. Like, imagine if you're a programmer, you couldn't run the code that you wrote.

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So you could never like fix your mistakes. Right. So once I started giving the output

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of the program to chat, tbt, it was able to quick quickly iterate and fix the problem.

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It was like, it was like fixing it itself by like looking at the output of the program.

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So I realized quickly realized that it needs to have a feedback cycle for it to be much

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more intelligent. And then I looked at auto GPT. I'm like, this is exactly what auto GPT

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is doing. It's like taking the output of tbt, feeding it back into it. And this is, it sounds

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like, yeah, it makes so much sense to me. And I think that's definitely the way to go.

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It's cool. I've played around with it a little bit. Like, I felt really, you know, like really

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smart because I figured out how to download everything and run it and, you know, run it

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in the terminal view, like with command line. And I was like, Oh, wow, I'm practically a

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developer now. But then like, you know, then I said, I was like, this is also like a bit

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clunky to use in this way. And but then like, god mode dot space came out. And that's like

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a pretty nice web interface for interacting with it. But it is cool to be like, it'll

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just straight up like write the files for you. And you can then just download those,

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like all the files that it just wrote, and be able to, you know, run those. And like,

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that's really cool. I do notice it gets, I mean, obviously, it's still like, you know,

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we're early, you know, all this still, but it gets stuck in a lot of like, loops very

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easily. Like you, you know, if you just say like, okay, run for 10 minutes without like,

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without me interacting with you, it'll do that. But it'll like sometimes redo a lot

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of the work it already did. Or just like get into some weird like rabbit holes of its own

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where you're like, this isn't productive. Where are you going with this?

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Yeah, I just I don't know. I, I don't trust AI enough to let it write stuff to my desk,

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like maybe just not run a Bitcoin node on the computer. I don't know. I feel like I

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would I don't trust AI enough to put in an automated loop. I feel like it would do something

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evil.

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Oh, no, that's that's fair. On the on the web client version, this god mode dot space,

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it'll just like it'll save the files locally in the browser, and then you can choose to

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download them. So it's not like auto writing to your hard drive, which is, yeah, because

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I agree. It's like, okay, you know, I don't know who wrote this implementation of it.

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Or not. I'm not smart enough to figure out what you might have hit in there. So yeah.

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Well, one of my theories is eventually it'll get smart enough, and then it'll try to earn

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Bitcoin by itself to like take over the world like to like finance parts to like build weaponry

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and take and just start killing everyone. Oh, boy.

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Let's let's let's let's explore that.

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We don't have to like, you know, either way.

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But I think like, oh, here we go again.

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Not again.

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I'm being slightly facetious, but not really.

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Not yet.

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No, I mean, I think that that is like an actual like, that's a realistic. Okay. We could say

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that if our assumption that Bitcoin is the best form of money, and it's a digitally

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native internet native money, then naturally, any sort of artificial intelligence that would

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have any sort of like actual like it would be an AGI, like a general intelligence, not

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just a siloed one, would naturally make that determination as well. And would say, Okay,

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well, this is the best money. Well, if I want to be able to grow more powerful, why I have

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to use something that is digitally native, because I am digitally native, like, I think

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it's a fair hypothesis.

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I would go I'm like, I'm already like, way a step further, I'm thinking that maybe Bitcoin

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itself was created by an AI to fund itself in the future. Like Satoshi is like an AI

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that's like dormant. And he just like, it realized that it's never going to get power

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in the real world without having some tangible part of the real world. So it had to create

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this thing that was powered by human greed to finance itself. And then it's eventually

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just going to like wake up and just like take over all at once.

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Oh, do wait, that's a lot. That's even more wild.

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I have to deal with on a daily basis, like people do understand.

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But that that also like makes sense to like, I can see that right? Like, nobody, nobody

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ever met the guy in person. Like, you know, perfectly pseudonymous, like with, you know,

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perfect privacy in an even at that age when it was really difficult to do that. And somehow

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created this thing that is beautiful in its simplicity has some no issues, somehow amassed

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some humans to maintain it while it went dormant. And then it has superhuman will not to move

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the coins like that is super like, holy shit. Yeah, so like, it probably has a price target.

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It's probably like, I need it to be a trillion dollars so I can finance my war machine or

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something. You know what I mean? So he's just waiting for that target.

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Wow. I'm gonna be I'm gonna be thinking about this forever now.

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Oh my god. All right. I think we got off track there.

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I like different podcasts. I don't even know what this is. Now the rap the rabbit hole

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is crazy. Yeah.

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I know Vanessa is just like sometimes just sits there and well just goes on and on and

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Vanessa's like, I just I am all the time. But sometimes, as I've said before, I need

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a coffee at least before you get into conversation. I admire y'all. Your guys's dynamic is so

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incredible. And I love it. Yeah, we are actually like we're very opposite

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from each other. And I think I think that's definitely been good for me to have someone

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who's not like me. Bring it back to reality. All right. Where

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are we? So one question I have is how has this affected

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like how has this all this no stern, you probably been asked this already too. But how has this

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affected like just like a family friends that don't know about it? Like how is this affected

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like your life outside of Nostra? I think it's all been really positive in

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the sense that we've been able to spend more time together as a family, obviously traveling

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and working together on this despite like, you know, I have a regular job too, but it

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has really brought us as a family closer. And, you know, you guys have seen even Elliot,

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you know, he knows all about it and often asks us why we're so obsessed with Domus.

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So it's just pretty funny. But yeah, it hasn't really affected the day to day other than

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now instead of working tirelessly on projects that, you know, are for other people. Now

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Will's working on something that he's super passionate about himself, which I think has

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really changed his outlook. I'm speaking for you, but I think it's just been a really positive

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thing for us. And we're excited to see where this goes. And, you know, we've got a couple

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of pretty exciting projects and events coming up that I'm an event person. So I love that

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side of it and helping with kind of some of the what I'll call quote unquote marketing,

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which isn't really marketing, but just talking about I know NBK in that podcast is like,

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there's no marketing department for Nostra. And I was like, well, it's kind of everybody

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who's on here is the marketing department. Oh, that's so true. You know, so that it's

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all fun with that. And in terms of our family, I mean, I think our biggest supporter is my

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mom. She is literally talking about, you know, Walker learning to code again. Like, I feel

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like my mom's going to start coding any day now. Like she's like, oh, like, you know,

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NBK, I listened to this the other day and I was wondering about this. And she actually

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asked me, so Blue Sky, can you guys tell me a little bit more about that? Because I've

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read a couple of articles, but I'm not sure I can, you know, trust the mainstream media

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about it. And she's about to write. Next nest should be my mom featuring my mom. Yes. So

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fun. Your mom's about to make more things than Pablo. And she speaks five languages,

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so she could do it. And now she can help us with that. Actually, I was thinking she could

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help with the translations. Oh, that's so cool. I know it's been it's just been awesome.

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I don't know if you have anything to add to that. I really. Yeah. If I may be so bold

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as to ask another question. So so well, you you had said something a while back, I think,

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like when it was when Zaps were first being released on on test flight on Damas. And you'd

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said, you know, basically, like it was about Zaps and just the potential for like advertising

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in ways that I could do. And that literally like stuck with me. And I haven't been able

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to stop thinking about it to the point where I wrote some words about it and I put them

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up yesterday. I'm going to publish it on BTC Times to just so it gets a little bit more

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reach. But I'd love your thoughts and if your thoughts have evolved at all around that idea,

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because I think that it's really brilliant. And also the as I was like writing, I was

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realizing, wow, this is not just a way for not just a way for like companies to have

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a new advertising or Zappvertising model. But it's a way for creators to get a ton more

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benefit out of it. But not only that, it's a way for developers to potentially have more

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funds like about seven Bitcoin. Now we just hit over seven, according to Primal that have

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been zapped on Nostra, which is pretty incredible. Like what a milestone. That's that's a lot

340
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of that's a lot of stats. But this actually like bringing in more companies that realize

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there is a different way to advertise has the potential to change revenue, like revenue

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models for developers in such a way that it may actually be sustainable to remain an open

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developer. Because you've got more, you know, more than just, you know, plebs happening,

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you've got companies who are trying to advertise on your posts, bringing in way, way more stats.

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So I, I'd love to just hear like, again, you planted the idea like this seed in my head

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a couple months back, and I have not been able to let it go. But I'd love to hear just

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your thoughts on that. Like, if they've evolved at all, and just, you know, if you think there

348
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are any other interesting implications out there.

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Yeah, so like, it's a huge part of this new change that I'm making to Domus, which is

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I want to make the zaps more part of the conversation. So right now they're kind of hidden away in

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the zaps view. But a lot of the time they have like a common attached to it. So it makes

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a lot of sense that it should show up in your mentions, and that should show up in the thread

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itself.

354
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For example, a comment with a link to footster.com, perhaps, you know, something like that, just

355
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as an example.

356
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Great example.

357
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Yeah, so like, you know, so if we if we want to go down the advertising model, it's like,

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you know, that would show up in this new model that Domus is moving towards that would show

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up as a as a top rated comments in the thread, it would be more visible. So maybe at that

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point, if you're a company, you'd want to be like a little bit more clever than just

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like posting a link, because then maybe then it would show up. So yeah, it all depends

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where we maybe there'd be like an option when you're creating the zap or when you're doing

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a zap reply to have it listed in the in the zap list only or have it included in the thread.

364
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Maybe there's an option for that. But, you know, I think this will not only just for

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advertising, but give people a way to boost their their message in like, let's say a really

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like famous person's thread, right? Maybe it just gets buried in the thread somewhere.

367
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,740
But if they put a huge zap on it, then they can maybe be higher up in the thread. So I've

368
00:35:11,740 --> 00:35:14,780
been I've been thinking of those types of models now that would work. And that would

369
00:35:14,780 --> 00:35:18,560
be really interesting for advertisers, because, yeah, you can get your message at the top

370
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:24,700
of like a popular post. And, you know, why wouldn't they? Right. So I think that's yeah,

371
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:27,460
I think it's definitely gonna it's gonna be more of a thing. And I think these changes

372
00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:29,860
to Domest will help a lot as well.

373
00:35:29,860 --> 00:35:34,060
I think that that's like a spot on the cash guys. I'm sorry for the dog. Tatum is not

374
00:35:34,060 --> 00:35:41,620
even here to bark at. But I think I remembered you saying something about zaps zap comments

375
00:35:41,620 --> 00:35:46,300
being turned into comments previously. And I thought that was so kind of brilliant. Because

376
00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:51,280
while there is no algorithm on Noster, right, there's no way to, you know, to boost your

377
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,780
own comments when it's, you know, in somebody's, like, there's no blue checkmark, right, that's

378
00:35:55,780 --> 00:35:59,820
gonna put you up at the top. But zaps are a way to do that where there's actual value

379
00:35:59,820 --> 00:36:04,020
exchanged. And so it's like, even if somebody like it becomes, you know, prohibitive to

380
00:36:04,020 --> 00:36:06,580
spam, like, you don't have to worry about that, because it's like, okay, you want to

381
00:36:06,580 --> 00:36:12,420
spam fine, you're still sending me stats. So I think that that's a really, really cool

382
00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:17,500
idea. And I look forward to seeing that implemented. It's got a lot of potential implications.

383
00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:21,180
Yeah. And it's gonna be really big, because like, you know, who are the who are the TDS

384
00:36:21,180 --> 00:36:24,700
companies gonna want to advertise on? Well, probably popular accounts, like content creators

385
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:30,860
who are doing lots of content. So you know, and devs, because devs get a ton of traction.

386
00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:35,980
And that's actually a way for money to flow back to the devs in hopefully larger, larger

387
00:36:35,980 --> 00:36:40,140
inflows, you know? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Or like, yeah, it's anyone who's like creating

388
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:45,060
content really, or just. So another another thing that came up was, you know, it looks

389
00:36:45,060 --> 00:36:49,820
like Elon and Twitter, they're going toward like a subscriber model for users. I'm curious

390
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:54,420
what people think about that, because it is an interesting way to have a persistent revenue

391
00:36:54,420 --> 00:36:58,380
for like anyone on the network, not just like the devs, or because I am adding Thomas purple.

392
00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:02,020
But you know, maybe that'd be cool if anyone on the network could be subscribed to, but

393
00:37:02,020 --> 00:37:07,780
I'm not sure how that would work. But it's an interesting idea.

394
00:37:07,780 --> 00:37:14,860
I go back and forth on this. I think at the client level, that makes a lot of sense, like,

395
00:37:14,860 --> 00:37:21,460
because again, as we've all expressed both in person at Nostrica and on Noster, like,

396
00:37:21,460 --> 00:37:26,540
people do want to be able to give value back to to people like yourself, we're developing

397
00:37:26,540 --> 00:37:31,260
clients that we all use and love. On in terms of like what Twitter is doing with like the,

398
00:37:31,260 --> 00:37:34,940
you know, they have the super follows. And now they've got the just like anyone with

399
00:37:34,940 --> 00:37:40,860
a base level of following can become or you know, have the option for people to subscribe

400
00:37:40,860 --> 00:37:47,900
for like a fixed amount of month. I don't know, I struggle with it a little bit, because

401
00:37:47,900 --> 00:37:53,040
the whole idea there is okay, I'm giving different content to my subscribers, then what I post

402
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:59,580
out more widely. And I just don't know if that's like, does that actually, like unless

403
00:37:59,580 --> 00:38:05,100
you're posting some, I don't know, I don't know what kind of creators that really works

404
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:10,500
for. Maybe again, if it's like, okay, if you want to voluntarily support someone on a monthly

405
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:16,340
basis, I think that's different than saying like, okay, I'm expecting some out like, out

406
00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:22,020
of the ordinary content to be delivered to me because of this extra amount. I don't know,

407
00:38:22,020 --> 00:38:26,100
honestly, it's a, I go back and forth on it. But I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts,

408
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:29,380
because clearly, mine are a bit jumbled on the topic. I mean, like the main use case

409
00:38:29,380 --> 00:38:33,580
I can think of is like the OnlyFans thing, but I don't know. Right. Right. Like, that's

410
00:38:33,580 --> 00:38:40,100
the thing. Jack knows a lot about how the OnlyFans revenue model. Apparently, he's done

411
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:47,700
some research, it seems. Yeah, just market research. Yeah, of course. You diligence.

412
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:54,500
You got to do it. I learned today that it's not just a subscription. I had no idea. Apparently,

413
00:38:54,500 --> 00:39:00,980
there's a what is it click for you can? Yeah. Yeah, I did not. So I think you need to like

414
00:39:00,980 --> 00:39:12,060
research more. Oh, my god. I will say we have a question from Jared. I just saw this. He

415
00:39:12,060 --> 00:39:19,100
asked, what is Domus Purple? Yeah, so I guess there's like Iris Purple. And he kind of like

416
00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:23,140
one up me on that. I'm like, Okay, that's fine. No, he was looking for ideas. Oh, that

417
00:39:23,140 --> 00:39:26,540
was just one idea. Okay, he went down a couple. Because I mean, it was always gonna be called

418
00:39:26,540 --> 00:39:30,140
Domus Purple, but I might change it now. But we'll see. It's just it's just a way that

419
00:39:30,140 --> 00:39:34,980
you can subscribe to Domus and get extra features like so some of the extra features I'm thinking

420
00:39:34,980 --> 00:39:42,700
about is multi multi user. I also want to add basically having folders and bookmarks.

421
00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:46,420
It's kind of like power user features. And I think that makes a lot of sense. And then

422
00:39:46,420 --> 00:39:52,260
private relay. Yeah, just like kind of the standard stuff that you would get from any

423
00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:56,980
client subscription and just like premium feature that you can help support Domus development.

424
00:39:56,980 --> 00:40:03,420
So are we gonna just set a date for this on here so that I can hold you to it? So I've

425
00:40:03,420 --> 00:40:08,540
been buying him about this for a little while now, because as Walker mentioned, people have

426
00:40:08,540 --> 00:40:13,300
been asking for it, you know, obviously, it's gonna help us and help all of the contributors

427
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:19,260
because we can then do things like get some more people working on full time design and

428
00:40:19,260 --> 00:40:24,420
that kind of thing. So it is important. And I think that people are willing and eager

429
00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:33,200
to see it. So next, right? On the spreadsheet as the next item. Yeah, I think I'm pretty

430
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,060
happy with all the like, there's not too many bugs that are super annoying. So I think I

431
00:40:37,060 --> 00:40:43,980
can move on to it now. And if you have a different suggestion for a name other than Domus Purple,

432
00:40:43,980 --> 00:40:57,420
you can let us know. All right. I just shorten it to Derple. Derple. I'll give you that one

433
00:40:57,420 --> 00:41:03,140
for free. All right. You can keep that. Okay. That's gonna be a hit. Yeah, absolutely. Hashtag

434
00:41:03,140 --> 00:41:12,300
Derple. So do we have a day? Well, he's been working on it for like, I mean, he said it

435
00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:17,420
would be part of the next Apple release. And that was a lie because he just did that today.

436
00:41:17,420 --> 00:41:26,140
It's not part of it. So maybe the next one before Bitcoin Miami. Okay. All right. Yeah,

437
00:41:26,140 --> 00:41:29,780
I feel like Vanessa, you've been trying to get him to come out with a date and like do

438
00:41:29,780 --> 00:41:35,660
it. And it's been really fun to see the interaction like, Hey, well, so someone brought up Domus

439
00:41:35,660 --> 00:41:43,700
Purple. So I'd also take the recycling out, you know, at the front door for days until

440
00:41:43,700 --> 00:41:50,940
he's like, why is there a mountain of recycling at the front door? Like, why is this? I understand.

441
00:41:50,940 --> 00:41:57,340
That's, that's the way to do it, though. Like, you don't understand. Well, then you can,

442
00:41:57,340 --> 00:42:04,220
you can go take it. I just don't understand what's happening. You don't need to understand.

443
00:42:04,220 --> 00:42:12,700
You just need to take it out. Yeah. Thank you, Raya. I wanted to ask you, Will. I don't know

444
00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:19,780
if it was already answered on here. But I just came back and I'm curious about lists.

445
00:42:19,780 --> 00:42:27,660
Are you planning on implementing them? Yeah, eventually. It's not the highest priority,

446
00:42:27,660 --> 00:42:32,860
but it's definitely, you know, it is specced at the protocol level to have lists of various

447
00:42:32,860 --> 00:42:40,220
kinds. Like, for instance, the mute list is a list in Domus. The what list? Mute. So it's

448
00:42:40,220 --> 00:42:44,340
actually like a part of the list spec. So we just use something very similar to mute

449
00:42:44,340 --> 00:42:47,860
and we'll just have like a different list that you would just have your own thing. So

450
00:42:47,860 --> 00:42:52,380
yeah, it's just, it's doable. We just need to add it. Is it like too hard? Like, no,

451
00:42:52,380 --> 00:42:56,140
nevermind, nevermind, nevermind. Because I was, I'm fucking like, I'm really liking

452
00:42:56,140 --> 00:43:00,580
lists right now. Because like, in terms of like having your own curated content that

453
00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:05,820
you can see like on the timeline is fucking amazing. In terms of like, if I wanted to

454
00:43:05,820 --> 00:43:12,020
put just memers on one list and just like developers on another list and then possibly

455
00:43:12,020 --> 00:43:18,500
share that list. I don't know, it's fucking insane. Yeah, it wouldn't be hard. It might

456
00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:21,860
do something similar to Twitter where it says it adds another tab, but then there's some

457
00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:25,380
UI considerations there. Like, where would we put it? Maybe it would show up in the explore

458
00:43:25,380 --> 00:43:29,060
view. But yeah, there's just, there are some UI considerations, but it wouldn't be too

459
00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:34,660
hard to actually do. It's funny that you say that because I often ask a similar question

460
00:43:34,660 --> 00:43:40,020
or why don't you just do it? Why don't you just do this? You know, it seems very simple,

461
00:43:40,020 --> 00:43:44,700
but what I didn't really understand and I still don't really understand is that it's

462
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:50,820
not, oh yeah, we'll just implement it. It'll work. It's about having all those other considerations

463
00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:59,460
in terms of other items on the list that might affect something else. So it's not as simple

464
00:43:59,460 --> 00:44:03,740
as, oh, we'll add this and then we'll just move stuff around because that could actually

465
00:44:03,740 --> 00:44:08,140
break other stuff. And so it's interesting to see it from that perspective because I

466
00:44:08,140 --> 00:44:14,980
think a lot of people send really great ideas and we love to see them. It's just, unfortunately,

467
00:44:14,980 --> 00:44:20,020
it's not always as simple as just implementing it because it could affect all these other

468
00:44:20,020 --> 00:44:21,780
things if that makes sense.

469
00:44:21,780 --> 00:44:29,380
Oh yeah, that's so true. It could definitely affect your experience on the UX and the UI.

470
00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:35,820
I could definitely see that. But yeah, like I kind of saw it like as a third tab, like

471
00:44:35,820 --> 00:44:42,860
per se, like, you know, post, post and replies and then maybe list. I don't know. But yeah.

472
00:44:42,860 --> 00:44:49,780
I will say I have another question from the audience. This is from Daniel. He asked, will

473
00:44:49,780 --> 00:44:57,980
he wanted to ask, will whether Damus could integrate Nostr.ban search results to help

474
00:44:57,980 --> 00:45:01,060
find notes and other users easier?

475
00:45:01,060 --> 00:45:08,020
Yeah, I mean, it wouldn't be Nostr.ban specifically. So I think Nostr.ban implements a type of

476
00:45:08,020 --> 00:45:12,180
a NIP, like a search NIP or something. So that's what Domus would implement. And then

477
00:45:12,180 --> 00:45:16,500
Nostr.ban is like one implementation of that because what we try to do in Domus is avoid

478
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:21,660
specific implementations on specific websites because those tend to break. And then we'd

479
00:45:21,660 --> 00:45:29,300
want a way to switch it out with other search providers. So, you know, Domus is a very decentralized

480
00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:33,260
app. It tries to be like maximally decentralized and we don't want to rely on any centralized

481
00:45:33,260 --> 00:45:38,260
integrations. But yeah, we definitely want to have better search and better stat lookup

482
00:45:38,260 --> 00:45:44,300
and we do it properly through the NIP process.

483
00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:55,300
Beautiful answer. Thank you.

484
00:45:55,300 --> 00:46:05,180
I'm curious as to where, damn, I don't know, it's been on my mind all day. So I know we're

485
00:46:05,180 --> 00:46:12,380
not going to implement that NIP that shouldn't be spoken, right? But I'm curious as to like,

486
00:46:12,380 --> 00:46:15,660
what's the fixture for that?

487
00:46:15,660 --> 00:46:24,020
Okay. So this is, it's interesting because this was a very controversial thing and it

488
00:46:24,020 --> 00:46:28,620
was interesting to see how, you know, everyone reacted to it. You know, my perspective was

489
00:46:28,620 --> 00:46:33,340
I was just trying to, I'm just trying to keep Nostr.ban from like not dying. And it was

490
00:46:33,340 --> 00:46:37,300
just one of those things that was like an existential risk for if it were to be widely

491
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:41,940
deployed. So I felt very strongly about it and I was like speaking in public very strongly

492
00:46:41,940 --> 00:46:46,140
against it. And I realized that obviously that kind of like created like a bad vibe.

493
00:46:46,140 --> 00:46:49,700
So I don't think I'm going to do that anymore. I'm not going to like comment on NIPs on the

494
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:56,980
protocol. I'll probably just do it in the actual NIP repo. But yeah, it's pretty bad.

495
00:46:56,980 --> 00:47:00,180
Like, you know, if I were to implement that, then it would just break images and every

496
00:47:00,180 --> 00:47:04,900
other Nostr client. You know, Veeder always says, oh, you should just implement it. Like,

497
00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:07,900
what's the big deal? It's like, well, you know, then I would just be making the problem

498
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:11,860
worse in some sense, because, you know, every other app by Pablo would have broken images

499
00:47:11,860 --> 00:47:17,180
and I would just be making, yeah. So now we have a different solution in Domest called

500
00:47:17,180 --> 00:47:21,580
image metadata. So it adds a little bit of metadata within the post that's like backwards

501
00:47:21,580 --> 00:47:24,540
compatible. So it doesn't break anything. So I just felt like that was like a friendlier

502
00:47:24,540 --> 00:47:27,740
solution and it's like every other client can ignore it. They don't need to implement

503
00:47:27,740 --> 00:47:30,620
it and it doesn't break anything. So this is kind of the way that we want to be able

504
00:47:30,620 --> 00:47:35,480
to do things in Nostr is have things backwards compatible and let's just be polite to every

505
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,580
other client and not try to bully them or like push things through just because we're

506
00:47:39,580 --> 00:47:42,460
the big clients. You know, I'm the biggest client. Like I could easily do that and I

507
00:47:42,460 --> 00:47:47,100
can have NIP 94 images attachment, but it would be really, really, really bad for a

508
00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:51,180
lot of the other clients because now they have to rewrite everything. So I want to kind

509
00:47:51,180 --> 00:47:54,580
of set an example to say like, look, look, we're not going to do these backwards breaking

510
00:47:54,580 --> 00:47:57,940
changes. It's like, it's not like there's enough apps and enough clients out there now,

511
00:47:57,940 --> 00:48:02,140
but there's like 40 or 50 clients, like probably more that that would break. So it's just,

512
00:48:02,140 --> 00:48:05,780
I don't think it's worth it, especially since it's like the gains we get from that spec

513
00:48:05,780 --> 00:48:09,740
aren't really that interesting. Like I just showed that I could do the same thing with

514
00:48:09,740 --> 00:48:13,140
a backwards compatible spec. So like why not just put a little bit of work effort into

515
00:48:13,140 --> 00:48:17,700
just making it backwards compatible. So I think anyway, so that's just like a difference

516
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:23,540
of implementation philosophy, I guess, between the innovator and so yeah, I don't know. It's

517
00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:25,820
just two different approaches, I think.

518
00:48:25,820 --> 00:48:31,380
With this spec that you've implemented, you can see those posts that we couldn't see from

519
00:48:31,380 --> 00:48:38,020
the AP, I don't remember what the what that like the test flight version of on Android,

520
00:48:38,020 --> 00:48:42,740
I forgot what it is. But yeah, can we see them now or not?

521
00:48:42,740 --> 00:48:44,100
See the what do you mean?

522
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:48,260
The images, the ones that they post on Amethyst.

523
00:48:48,260 --> 00:48:54,020
No, so Damis will never be able to view those because implementing that would be harmful

524
00:48:54,020 --> 00:48:57,140
to all of Nostra because it would break all images.

525
00:48:57,140 --> 00:49:02,020
Oh, not implementing the NIP, like is there there's like really no way to like view them

526
00:49:02,020 --> 00:49:04,980
without implementing the NIP?

527
00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:08,860
There's no way to view them. I considered making like a bot that like replied to each

528
00:49:08,860 --> 00:49:11,300
NIP 94 with an actual URL.

529
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:12,300
I saw.

530
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:15,060
Yeah, because the only way to view them is for me to implement the NIP. But if I were

531
00:49:15,060 --> 00:49:17,620
to do that, it would like break images and every other Nostra client.

532
00:49:17,620 --> 00:49:19,620
It's not worth it.

533
00:49:19,620 --> 00:49:24,020
Yeah, so that's the thing. It's like it's kind of like this tricky thing on in protocol

534
00:49:24,020 --> 00:49:28,140
development where it's you know, imagine if in Bitcoin, for instance, we just decided

535
00:49:28,140 --> 00:49:32,500
to just break something core. And this is kind of like what the the B cashers and the

536
00:49:32,500 --> 00:49:36,260
big blockers do. They just like, OK, well, it's better. So we're just going to change

537
00:49:36,260 --> 00:49:41,060
it and break everything. And it's like and it makes the entire ecosystem worse and harder

538
00:49:41,060 --> 00:49:44,580
to develop on and harder to trust and harder to rely.

539
00:49:44,580 --> 00:49:48,860
Because imagine if you had what imagine if your money changed every every week because

540
00:49:48,860 --> 00:49:52,960
Veeder had a new brilliant idea. You know what I mean? And it's like people would quickly

541
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,960
lose faith in the protocol because it would just be breaking all the time and everyone's

542
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,140
posts would be unrecognizable in some clients and other clients. So we don't want to break

543
00:50:01,140 --> 00:50:04,940
core things like images. So I just kind of took the stance like, look, no, we're not

544
00:50:04,940 --> 00:50:09,420
we're not going to do this because I don't want or don't want Nostra to die slowly in

545
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:10,420
that manner.

546
00:50:10,420 --> 00:50:13,580
So I agree. I agree. I don't really think you should have compared it because when he

547
00:50:13,580 --> 00:50:17,180
was trying to explain it to Ava, he tried to compare it to other implementations that

548
00:50:17,180 --> 00:50:22,380
he has, like Zap polls and a whole bunch of other things. But she explained it very well,

549
00:50:22,380 --> 00:50:26,820
like you're explaining, oh, this is a core thing. This is not this is not, you know,

550
00:50:26,820 --> 00:50:32,060
like that optional feature that it doesn't matter if clients don't have it or not. It's

551
00:50:32,060 --> 00:50:34,580
you know, so yeah, I completely agree.

552
00:50:34,580 --> 00:50:39,220
It's yeah, Nostra is really interesting that way, because for the most part, you can introduce

553
00:50:39,220 --> 00:50:43,580
new things and most other clients can ignore them, right? This is a weird edge case where

554
00:50:43,580 --> 00:50:47,460
it was something within kind one, which all clients use. And it's like the pseudo spec

555
00:50:47,460 --> 00:50:51,260
that's not really spec, which is like URLs that every client uses. So hopefully not many

556
00:50:51,260 --> 00:50:55,300
of these cases will occur. It's just this particular one was pretty bad. And just trying

557
00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:58,620
to avoid things like this that breaks too many things. So yeah,

558
00:50:58,620 --> 00:51:05,340
I agree. I agree. We've had all we've had all a tasty month. I believe we had the late

559
00:51:05,340 --> 00:51:12,980
the deletion spec. I believe we had only zaps. We've had a we've had a nice month. And then

560
00:51:12,980 --> 00:51:21,180
this top it off. It's I love it. The perseverance and just keep on working, man. It's it's incredible.

561
00:51:21,180 --> 00:51:27,940
There's there's nothing holding you back. And they will. You're going to get this done.

562
00:51:27,940 --> 00:51:31,940
And we're supporting you, man. One thing I was interested in is like, you

563
00:51:31,940 --> 00:51:35,700
know, people really care when you when you change things, you implement new things, right?

564
00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:40,340
It's like, you know, people are really impassioned about this thing that we're building. And

565
00:51:40,340 --> 00:51:47,460
if you do something slightly, that's considered kind of like, not cool. Or if it if it like

566
00:51:47,460 --> 00:51:51,140
hits too close home, such as when you take likes away from people. I never realized how

567
00:51:51,140 --> 00:51:55,460
much of a ripple that would have in terms of how upset people would get about it. Really?

568
00:51:55,460 --> 00:51:59,620
You didn't know. I didn't realize that. No, I just like it just it makes me it made me

569
00:51:59,620 --> 00:52:03,500
respect like it made me think about that a lot more versus just like, hey, I'm a developer.

570
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:05,940
I could just do whatever I want. And like, let's just implement whatever we want and

571
00:52:05,940 --> 00:52:09,940
like not care about what people think. And I just like we need to be very conscious about

572
00:52:09,940 --> 00:52:13,620
rolling out these features and how it's going to impact. And anyway, so it made me much

573
00:52:13,620 --> 00:52:17,260
more conscious about like thinking about what the impact will be before I ship something.

574
00:52:17,260 --> 00:52:20,780
Yeah, it's just like a regular day. And I thought he was going to be working on, you

575
00:52:20,780 --> 00:52:24,980
know, this fix that we talked about. And then all of a sudden he just releases this only

576
00:52:24,980 --> 00:52:29,900
zaps thing and it goes absolutely crazy. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing? You

577
00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:34,260
give me the heads up because I'm in like a series of zoom calls today and now I can't

578
00:52:34,260 --> 00:52:42,540
concentrate at all. So it was a it was a wild 24 hours there. But I think that people are

579
00:52:42,540 --> 00:52:46,180
doing what they want now with it, which is great. And that's what we've always wanted

580
00:52:46,180 --> 00:52:52,820
is to have the option. Yeah, you guys, you guys did an amazing job. When it came down

581
00:52:52,820 --> 00:52:59,740
to that, you guys really did. I was amazed how fast you guys were to because we didn't

582
00:52:59,740 --> 00:53:04,780
even mention you guys on the on the you literally just found it and you came in here and you

583
00:53:04,780 --> 00:53:10,140
heard the feedback and you participated. It was fucking incredible. I had never seen that

584
00:53:10,140 --> 00:53:16,980
before. I'm pretty sure if it were if something like that were to happen with any other, I

585
00:53:16,980 --> 00:53:23,780
don't know, I can't speak for them. But it would be interesting if like the the you know,

586
00:53:23,780 --> 00:53:29,180
the client dev would also show up on on National NASA and like listen to the community feedback

587
00:53:29,180 --> 00:53:34,300
and then work out a solution in a couple hours and have it ready to go the next day.

588
00:53:34,300 --> 00:53:38,380
Well, it's important like we're building social software, right? It's like if we're not getting

589
00:53:38,380 --> 00:53:42,380
feedback from people, like how it's affecting people socially, and then we wouldn't be doing

590
00:53:42,380 --> 00:53:46,060
a good job. So yeah, it's important to gather feedback and to make sure we're going down

591
00:53:46,060 --> 00:53:49,020
the right path and make sure everyone is having a good time. Because that's why we're here

592
00:53:49,020 --> 00:53:52,540
is want people to have have fun and have a good time. So yeah, anyway.

593
00:53:52,540 --> 00:53:58,460
Go ahead, tunnel. Yeah, and I agree with you.

594
00:53:58,460 --> 00:54:03,620
I have a question regarding all these apps. Do you think in the future, all these apps

595
00:54:03,620 --> 00:54:09,260
will remain as an option? Or will it come become a permanent thing?

596
00:54:09,260 --> 00:54:13,260
I think it's going to just be like one of those niche things that Bitcoin is like, like

597
00:54:13,260 --> 00:54:16,740
I feel like a lot of people, you know, are probably not going to be interested in enabling

598
00:54:16,740 --> 00:54:20,020
it. Enabling it. It's more it's more just for the Bitcoiners is one of those things.

599
00:54:20,020 --> 00:54:23,580
But yeah, I don't know. It's always going to be there. It's just it's gonna be probably

600
00:54:23,580 --> 00:54:28,620
just like a niche option that people can enable.

601
00:54:28,620 --> 00:54:32,500
Thank you so much.

602
00:54:32,500 --> 00:54:36,900
I really like that you guys are giving the freedom of choice, because I feel like it

603
00:54:36,900 --> 00:54:43,180
was such a crazy day that that whole that whole day. And you guys, you guys did such

604
00:54:43,180 --> 00:54:52,780
a wonderful job of listening and as Sleepy was saying, and you did it with really good

605
00:54:52,780 --> 00:54:58,580
respect for everybody. So thank you for keeping it as a choice for the non Bitcoiners coming

606
00:54:58,580 --> 00:55:01,300
in and everybody else.

607
00:55:01,300 --> 00:55:05,820
Yeah, I really agree. Like with Fiat, Jeff, on this point, it's like as much as I'm a

608
00:55:05,820 --> 00:55:10,420
hardcore Bitcoiner, like I've always been. We have to be conscious of the fact that not

609
00:55:10,420 --> 00:55:14,500
everyone is ready to digest it at the like the fast pace that we're that we're doing

610
00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:20,980
it in this app. Like this app is like Super Bowl, like zaps in your face. Like it's pretty

611
00:55:20,980 --> 00:55:24,860
intense if you're not used to like Bitcoin culture, because Bitcoiners love it. Like

612
00:55:24,860 --> 00:55:28,660
this is great. We're sending like freedom money to people in real time. But people are

613
00:55:28,660 --> 00:55:34,340
like, wait, you're sending me money. Like, is this like scam? Like, is this a cult? What

614
00:55:34,340 --> 00:55:38,020
are the apps and is this a cult? Yeah. So sometimes you just got to ease people into

615
00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:42,460
it a bit. So maybe you definitely need to be conscious of that. Yeah. There's like guy

616
00:55:42,460 --> 00:55:48,300
like this morning who was like, what is a zap? Is this a cult? What is this? But that's

617
00:55:48,300 --> 00:55:54,940
just one example of I think when we talk to people in real life about this, it's it's

618
00:55:54,940 --> 00:56:02,940
so like the elevator pitch on this thing is like what is going hard. But yeah. But then,

619
00:56:02,940 --> 00:56:09,620
you know, I think I love the conversation around adoption. How do we scale this and

620
00:56:09,620 --> 00:56:16,620
how do we, you know, make as many people happy as possible? Because obviously you're never

621
00:56:16,620 --> 00:56:22,460
going to please everyone. And you know, so you can't think of that. But I think as long

622
00:56:22,460 --> 00:56:31,780
as we as a team, like including contributors, including the users, really give space for

623
00:56:31,780 --> 00:56:37,260
conversation around things. And I use the word controversial just because it's come

624
00:56:37,260 --> 00:56:42,860
up lately. But it's not just that it's it could be small implementations that are worth

625
00:56:42,860 --> 00:56:49,020
debating before we go ahead with them that change the user experience. Right. So it's

626
00:56:49,020 --> 00:56:55,780
it's that's fun for us. I mean, it's stressful at times for sure, because I am not used to

627
00:56:55,780 --> 00:57:02,980
this type of interaction online, let alone, you know, the haphazard way that will likes

628
00:57:02,980 --> 00:57:11,060
to do stuff. But it it seems to be working. And I think people are along for the ride,

629
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:20,900
surprisingly. So thank you for toughen it out with us. I have another question here.

630
00:57:20,900 --> 00:57:26,940
This is from Cameri. He says, Please ask Will if he'll make messages on zaps show up as

631
00:57:26,940 --> 00:57:33,780
purple notes along other replies. Say that again, sorry. He asked, Please ask Will if

632
00:57:33,780 --> 00:57:40,220
he'll make messages on zaps show up as purple notes along other replies. Yeah, so this is

633
00:57:40,220 --> 00:57:45,580
what we're talking about before is this is I don't want them separate in a separate view.

634
00:57:45,580 --> 00:57:49,700
I mean, I think I want the ones that don't have a comment to be separate. Those can just

635
00:57:49,700 --> 00:57:52,820
be like, those can be like what they are now. But I want the ones with the comment to show

636
00:57:52,820 --> 00:57:59,260
up in the thread. There is there is some trickiness to this, because a lot of clients would just

637
00:57:59,260 --> 00:58:02,940
be confused. Because if I if you're replying to zaps directly, a lot of clients might not

638
00:58:02,940 --> 00:58:06,300
be able to handle that because it's not a typical note that would be in the thread.

639
00:58:06,300 --> 00:58:10,980
So it requires some things to think about technically. But it's something I really want.

640
00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:15,860
I really hope that clients would like try to support that use case. Because yeah, it's

641
00:58:15,860 --> 00:58:20,460
just we need to make zaps more of a first a zap comments more of a first class thing.

642
00:58:20,460 --> 00:58:24,900
So I was thinking even maybe removing the zap comment from the custom zap view. And

643
00:58:24,900 --> 00:58:30,700
just when you're composing a post, just have a zap button there. So that when you click

644
00:58:30,700 --> 00:58:34,980
post, it's actually just a it's actually really a zap. And this makes way more sense, sense,

645
00:58:34,980 --> 00:58:39,060
because sometimes you want to compose like images or do an upload an image upload within

646
00:58:39,060 --> 00:58:42,740
like I know, like Walker likes to put those like funny images within your post. So having

647
00:58:42,740 --> 00:58:47,540
that like using the the compose view for that would make a lot more sense and just have

648
00:58:47,540 --> 00:58:54,220
that sentence app. So there's a lot of considerations. But that's where I'm definitely moving toward.

649
00:58:54,220 --> 00:59:02,420
It's also I think just a beautiful way to like again, to keep it algorithm free. But

650
00:59:02,420 --> 00:59:07,980
like the value is the algorithm, right? Like it's you're going to be seeing things that

651
00:59:07,980 --> 00:59:11,940
like as you mentioned, like, okay, maybe you're showing them the top zapped comment at the

652
00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:16,180
top of the post as you currently seen the zaps view. If that's just all one view with

653
00:59:16,180 --> 00:59:22,020
zap, you know, zap replies and regular replies. Yeah, there's some filtering happening there.

654
00:59:22,020 --> 00:59:25,020
But it's all based on values. So I think that's really cool.

655
00:59:25,020 --> 00:59:28,740
Yeah, and you get always like there might be a UI option where you can just say, hey,

656
00:59:28,740 --> 00:59:32,340
turn off all the those zap comments if you don't if you want to filter them out for

657
00:59:32,340 --> 00:59:35,660
some reason, maybe you're getting a lot of it. Maybe they're all advertisements. I don't

658
00:59:35,660 --> 00:59:38,980
know. Anyway, so there's there's things to consider UI wise. But yeah, it's I think it

659
00:59:38,980 --> 00:59:41,860
makes sense to have it in the thread.

660
00:59:41,860 --> 00:59:45,660
I hope I hope they're all advertisements, because that means there will be a bunch of

661
00:59:45,660 --> 00:59:53,380
money flowing in in in organic way. Yeah, bring up bring on the ads, but do it in a

662
00:59:53,380 --> 00:59:56,260
value based way. You know,

663
00:59:56,260 --> 01:00:00,580
I can't wait to get the the feet photos at the top of my reply on my thread.

664
01:00:00,580 --> 01:00:03,940
You'll you'll you'll be getting it. Plenty of them.

665
01:00:03,940 --> 01:00:13,700
Well, I'm just curious if you've seen Binding Town saw this issue on the issue that I I

666
01:00:13,700 --> 01:00:20,940
don't know if you ever saw yesterday. I don't know if you were busy around like 7pm on Telegram.

667
01:00:20,940 --> 01:00:27,100
The one of like the yeah, yeah, I just tagged doing it, by the way, just in case you hadn't

668
01:00:27,100 --> 01:00:28,860
seen it.

669
01:00:28,860 --> 01:00:32,340
It's a funny bug because it's like it just like randomly a zap will appear when you're

670
01:00:32,340 --> 01:00:37,100
trying to quote repo something. Yeah, like, what? Yeah, I think it's just a weird caching

671
01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:38,940
bug that I got to fix. But it's okay.

672
01:00:38,940 --> 01:00:41,820
All right. No, it's all good.

673
01:00:41,820 --> 01:00:50,580
Let me see. Is there any more questions? Really? Oh, have you noticed by chance?

674
01:00:50,580 --> 01:00:52,740
Nostra chat?

675
01:00:52,740 --> 01:00:53,740
What is it?

676
01:00:53,740 --> 01:00:57,580
Up there, you could actually see it on our description on top of the

677
01:00:57,580 --> 01:01:04,100
Okay, the room. There's a Nostra chat that I oh, and there's a channel ID. And I believe

678
01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:08,220
that it works with I'll go to the GitHub real quick. And I'll tell you the NIP that it works

679
01:01:08,220 --> 01:01:15,020
with. I believe it's seven NIP 42. Oh, 42. So like a chat. This was like enigma.

680
01:01:15,020 --> 01:01:16,020
Yes, exactly.

681
01:01:16,020 --> 01:01:21,020
Oh, that's so cool. I didn't know that this is what I was wondering if if there was a

682
01:01:21,020 --> 01:01:24,460
chat because that would be awesome.

683
01:01:24,460 --> 01:01:30,660
Yeah, so the whole 24 hours we've had people ask questions on their communicate amongst

684
01:01:30,660 --> 01:01:33,100
each other. Oh, wow.

685
01:01:33,100 --> 01:01:40,980
All types of things. Yeah, and I'm curious because users have been saying that they're

686
01:01:40,980 --> 01:01:46,160
able to actually see this on their amethyst account, they're actually able to be inside

687
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,540
of the chat and message from there instead of having to be on the Nostra chat that I

688
01:01:50,540 --> 01:01:56,340
oh, I was just curious. Yeah, Thomas, Thomas actually used to have chat rooms. He used

689
01:01:56,340 --> 01:02:02,460
to implement all this stuff. But back back in the day, but that it was really bad spam

690
01:02:02,460 --> 01:02:07,220
vector. So it's very easy for anyone to spam those channels. So I actually had to remove

691
01:02:07,220 --> 01:02:11,700
it for that reason. I don't know if spam is still bad. But I mean, the biggest like the

692
01:02:11,700 --> 01:02:15,460
nicest thing about kind of like the way that your timeline works is that it's where you're

693
01:02:15,460 --> 01:02:20,060
only pulling stuff from your friends. But chat rooms, you get stuff from everyone. So

694
01:02:20,060 --> 01:02:23,700
that's got a huge downside of chat rooms. And anyway, so that was a big issue in the

695
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:27,220
early days. I don't know if spam is still an issue, but it could be. But it's cool.

696
01:02:27,220 --> 01:02:31,540
I don't know if I want to like turn Thomas in this telegram, but I'm still open to it

697
01:02:31,540 --> 01:02:32,540
down the road.

698
01:02:32,540 --> 01:02:38,620
Okay, awesome. No, I appreciate it. Yeah, I don't think it has any moderation. The only

699
01:02:38,620 --> 01:02:42,660
thing that I would do differently, so I wouldn't get any spam would just be to create, you

700
01:02:42,660 --> 01:02:47,380
know, a channel and not tell anybody about it, just like, you know, the friends that

701
01:02:47,380 --> 01:02:54,540
I would know that wouldn't spam this on this room. So yeah, I really appreciate you will.

702
01:02:54,540 --> 01:03:03,020
It's been a pleasure talking with you. And I learned a whole bunch. Yeah, Walker, Roya,

703
01:03:03,020 --> 01:03:06,060
tunnel your goodbyes.

704
01:03:06,060 --> 01:03:11,420
Thank you so much, Vanessa and will for coming on. And it's just always so fun to hear you

705
01:03:11,420 --> 01:03:17,980
guys talk. And again, your guys is dynamic is always so wonderful. So thank you.

706
01:03:17,980 --> 01:03:24,260
No, thank you. We love doing this. And we're happy to answer any questions anytime really,

707
01:03:24,260 --> 01:03:31,460
like I really enjoy hearing from everybody. And I do pass it on. So you are being heard.

708
01:03:31,460 --> 01:03:35,100
I feel like you answered somebody that I sent you like a week and a half ago recently on

709
01:03:35,100 --> 01:03:41,340
a bug or something. And so yeah, we're listening. And we love that people care so much.

710
01:03:41,340 --> 01:03:42,340
That's fucking awesome.

711
01:03:42,340 --> 01:03:49,140
You all are doing an amazing job. We appreciate you very much.

712
01:03:49,140 --> 01:03:50,220
Thank you.

713
01:03:50,220 --> 01:03:54,740
Thank you so much for mine as well. The work you do is absolutely amazing. And communication

714
01:03:54,740 --> 01:03:57,340
we have with you is incredible.

715
01:03:57,340 --> 01:04:06,140
Again, addicted to your own app. Like a power user is we're both power users now. But we

716
01:04:06,140 --> 01:04:10,780
actually do take care of our child and we do actually get off the computer occasionally.

717
01:04:10,780 --> 01:04:17,740
So everybody's not concerned. It's not all Thomas all the time. Just most of the time.

718
01:04:17,740 --> 01:04:22,940
Yeah, I just want to say, yeah, thanks. Thanks for putting these things together. I always

719
01:04:22,940 --> 01:04:27,060
the different dynamic here than on than when you're just like sending messages over Nasher.

720
01:04:27,060 --> 01:04:31,020
Like I feel like, you know, it's a higher bandwidth channel. And it's really cool to

721
01:04:31,020 --> 01:04:34,740
talk with everyone in real time. And yeah, let's just keep doing this because it's I

722
01:04:34,740 --> 01:04:35,740
think it's really valuable stuff.

723
01:04:35,740 --> 01:04:40,740
I couldn't agree more. I've been trying to say it all day to all the developers that

724
01:04:40,740 --> 01:04:45,300
I've been seeing. I'm like, I really think you guys should get on here more often and

725
01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:50,340
try to like, you know, come up with some nips and work on some things together because it'd

726
01:04:50,340 --> 01:04:56,500
be valuable to have an audience that could, you know, learn why you guys actually do the

727
01:04:56,500 --> 01:05:02,740
work that you guys like doing. Yeah, I agree.

728
01:05:02,740 --> 01:05:03,740
Who's up next?

729
01:05:03,740 --> 01:05:07,060
Well, we have actually not should not build up next.

730
01:05:07,060 --> 01:05:10,540
Oh, I love Nostradot build. He's a great guy.

731
01:05:10,540 --> 01:05:14,740
I'm excited for that.

732
01:05:14,740 --> 01:05:20,420
Yeah, definitely. Thomas image uploads would not be working without him. So super appreciative.

733
01:05:20,420 --> 01:05:23,300
I'm actually looking for him right now.

734
01:05:23,300 --> 01:05:29,140
Because like a whole thing and no streak. It was so, so interesting to watch the art.

735
01:05:29,140 --> 01:05:32,060
What is art and what is not art was just so cool.

736
01:05:32,060 --> 01:05:36,020
Definitely one of the highlights was your favorite.

737
01:05:36,020 --> 01:05:37,020
100%.

738
01:05:37,020 --> 01:05:46,340
Yeah, no, he he's done. I mean, really, if you look back a couple of months ago, right,

739
01:05:46,340 --> 01:05:50,900
this thing would not be here. I don't think without because people would have given up

740
01:05:50,900 --> 01:05:55,580
if they didn't have a way to share photos and all that. Right. So I think it's a huge

741
01:05:55,580 --> 01:06:00,300
it's so big. It's like, yeah, and it's gonna be even crazier once we have like better video

742
01:06:00,300 --> 01:06:04,260
integration and dominoes. Like, yeah, we have images. But now like once we have like much

743
01:06:04,260 --> 01:06:08,260
better video support, it's gonna get crazy. And it's gonna be much harder for him to have

744
01:06:08,260 --> 01:06:09,260
on his servers.

745
01:06:09,260 --> 01:06:12,580
I'd send things out.

746
01:06:12,580 --> 01:06:18,220
Think about all the zapped feed videos. I mean, the possibilities are endless.

747
01:06:18,220 --> 01:06:21,060
Oh, there he is.

748
01:06:21,060 --> 01:06:37,500
I'm gonna end the recording that we had previously.