1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,120 woke up after a nice long sleep last night. Oh man, nice. Thank you. Thank you for 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:15,120 that right in the face. No, no, to be honest, I mean, we got to bed like three hours late 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,560 because we have a baby in the house. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not right there with you, but, 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:28,800 you know, I'm tired enough. So nice. Congrats. Congrats, man. Holy shit. How old? 5 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:39,760 He's, he's 10 months now. Nice. Yeah. Number four. Wow. Wow. We have a plead dad over here. Let's 6 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:47,360 go. I love to see it, man. Yo, this is amazing. So, sir, sleepy. Are you sleepy? I'm very sleepy. 7 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:56,880 No, I won't lie. I'm not joking. The space is, so, okay, this is my first space or, or nest or 8 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:04,480 clubhouse or anything. I've never done any of these things. So, uh, wow. Thanks. You're honored. 9 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:10,720 Yeah. Yeah. This is, uh, wow. It's been awesome so far. I've just like jumped in when I have a 10 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:16,400 chance. And last night I, uh, jumped in and someone was talking about, uh, renegade butcher was 11 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:23,840 talking about Joel Salatin, who's like basically my spirit animal. And, um, and then like turned 12 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:31,040 it off and then got back on. And then Derek was talking about asking for girls, uh, five pictures. 13 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:41,600 So I can't imagine what it was like starting at like 11 PM forward, but. Oh man. The diversity of, 14 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,720 um, these panels, it's, it's incredible to see. And they actually stayed on for like the next three 15 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:52,160 hours, I think. Oh my gosh. They took over multiple panels. That's awesome. So you're going to see 16 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,960 that in the recordings. You're going to hear that in the recordings. It's crazy. It got crazy after 17 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:03,120 that time. I want to listen to 24 hours of recordings. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine 18 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:10,240 who would actually sit there and just replay this whole thing? No Strikas was enough. I mean, 19 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:17,280 that was probably like 20 or 25 hours, right? Oh, so much content to consume. I totally skipped the 20 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,400 open source stage. Okay. So I didn't go to Nostrica cause I don't have, I don't have a passport. 21 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:29,680 That's, uh, unexpired right now. So I had to watch it on YouTube, but, uh, yeah, I totally skipped the, 22 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:36,320 the open source stage and just listened to the, uh, uh, wait, no, I skipped the workshop stage and 23 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,920 just listened to the open source stage. And yeah, that was like, that was like three or four, seven 24 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:48,960 hour videos, something like that. Uh, looks super fun though. Definitely hope to make it to, uh, 25 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:56,800 wherever the next one is. What Japan is that? That's, that's where I'm from. Japan seems awesome 26 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:02,960 though. Bro. Oh my God. I've always, I've dreamed of going to Japan all my life. I think cause I'm a 27 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:10,080 huge, uh, fucking nerd and I'm an anime fan. Uh, so, you know, uh, how can you not? How can you not? 28 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,880 Um, also if you ever like, if you ever played Nintendo games as a kid, you should, you should 29 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:21,520 definitely want to go. Oh yeah. Definitely played the, uh, you know, original super Nintendo 30 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:30,240 and 64 stuff grew up with that. So there you go. You see that. Are you coming by any chance to Miami? 31 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:38,240 Uh, yeah, I've also been to a conference. I've barely even been to a tech conference. So yeah, 32 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:44,400 I just, I don't really get out very much, but it's all good. Same thing over here. I'm coming 33 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,760 to the Bitcoin conference exclusively to hang out with Nostra people. That is, that is the reason, 34 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:56,160 you know, I'm a Bitcoiner too, but, um, I'm, I'm not even like, hardly excited about the Bitcoin 35 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:01,120 part. The Nostra part is where it's at. Oh yeah. I couldn't agree more. So you definitely have your 36 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,760 own karaoke ticket then. Oh yeah, I do. That's another thing I've never done. I've never done 37 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:13,680 I've never done karaoke. I've sung in like choirs and stuff, but, uh, I don't know what I'm kind of 38 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:20,080 thinking is I'll, I'll go and I won't know any of the music and then I'll just like sing like some 39 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:26,720 William Billings or something like that. And, uh, you know, stand out. That's you, you have something 40 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:32,320 in common with my, uh, with my co-host. My co-host is, uh, is it a, is it a choir group? I think it's, 41 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,360 is it a group or is it a, he's actually on national TV, believe it or not, in a competition, 42 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:47,120 where he lives, uh, singing is like, it's part of their heritage and, uh, yeah, they, they have a 43 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:53,200 long history of singing. Um, and I'm very proud of him for doing that and sticking to it. Do we, 44 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:59,040 do we know where Tennolla is from or, uh, is that, is that a privilege? Um, I'll give you Northern 45 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:08,400 Europe. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm part of a choir. There's like 50 people in it and 50, 50 men. Yeah. So, 46 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:15,200 and there's like, I think the first quarterfinal of the show is on maybe today or tomorrow, but 47 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:20,880 unfortunately didn't get to record as I was sick during that time, but next Friday, we are on this 48 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:26,640 semifinal and back on, back on national TV. So it's going to be absolutely amazing. I wish I 49 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:33,360 could be there for the karaoke. It could be amazing. Yeah. I, I have no idea. I'm sure, 50 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:40,080 like Derek, Derek is the one who organized it, right? Yeah. Derek, UTXO, um, Avi, I think as 51 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:45,280 well. Yeah. So, you know, it's going to be good. Yep. Yep. There's no denying that. There's no 52 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:50,800 denying that they, they've, they've got this down pack. Um, I'm super excited for that as well. And, 53 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,520 and now that you mentioned that you're also into, um, that you were also into like the Nintendo 64, 54 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:02,720 uh, we were planning, you know, Island, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. So Island, Island might be having a 55 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:10,480 get together, um, for, you know, some nostrigists to play some old school games. Oh, nice. That 56 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:16,800 sounds amazing. Right. That's fucking lit. So we might do that as well. Yeah. Yeah. We got to set 57 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:23,680 that up. Yeah. Every so often one of my friends goes and finds a Nint-Bolt Nintendo and, and buys 58 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:31,600 it. And then we play it for a while and then he loses it or whatever. You got to do it. Those old 59 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:37,440 goals were getting harder and harder to get ahold of, you know, like I grew up mostly playing like 60 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:46,720 windows PC games. Um, and, uh, they're, they're impossible to install on like on anything anymore. 61 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:53,200 You know, all the drivers are for, uh, direct 3d and all that stuff are completely, completely 62 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,920 messed up. I, I, you know, obviously I'm a dev, but I'm not technical enough to make windows work. 63 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:08,320 I'm dead. Yo, these are shots, especially at me. I'm a windows user. Yeah, I used to be, but, uh, 64 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:15,920 you know, I've repented. So actually my dad used to work at Microsoft. Uh, so he, my dad helped 65 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:22,240 write NT. Um, so I've got a lot of windows heritage, but I talked to him and he's like, yeah, 66 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:29,600 yeah, windows is pretty crappy. Yeah. Like every time somebody sees my laptop, they always, oh, 67 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:35,120 you're running Linux or cause it's a think pad and they're obvious, like they all assume, oh, 68 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:43,840 it's Linux. No, I'm a fucking regular ass plebe. I'm running windows. Yeah. I, I, I was at, uh, 69 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,440 I got a grant to work on core goal for a while and that just ran out yesterday, but I'm down in 70 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:58,000 Austin with a bunch of, uh, open source, like cypher punk nerds kind of, um, and, uh, and I, 71 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:03,840 I use a Mac book and, uh, I didn't exactly get like dirty looks, but people definitely dished on Mac 72 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,720 while I was in the room. Damn. It's funny. I don't mind. I agree, but, uh, 73 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:17,040 be what you gotta do. Facts, facts. No, especially, uh, what, what is it that you like about Mac on 74 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:22,160 specifically? Like if you, if, you know, if you're able to tell us, uh, compared to like another 75 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:29,040 machine. Yeah. Well, Mac works. Uh, that's, that's what I like. I don't really like anything else 76 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:35,040 about Mac. Uh, I don't use an iPhone. I think the design for iPhones doesn't make any sense. 77 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:42,640 Um, I think Mac's like window management and, uh, you know, like settings panels and all that stuff, 78 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:48,720 they're kind of pretty, but I just don't think I don't, I don't like them. I don't. So I don't 79 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:57,200 like Mac. I only use it because windows is slow and the command line is awful. And, uh, and Linux 80 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:03,600 every time, every time I buy a new computer, I buy a Linux computer and like a windows computer. 81 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:10,480 So I got a Dell XPS 13 last time and tried to set Linux up and, uh, you know how it is. You, 82 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:18,000 you wake up like 30 hours later, covered in sweat, trying to sign your kernel. And, uh, yeah, I, 83 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,760 I got that far. And then I, I returned the computer and bought a Mac book instead. 84 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:30,960 Oh, all right. So that's out of the way. Uh, yeah, back definitely works. Not gonna lie. Like the 85 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:37,360 only reason why I'm not using my, uh, my Mac book is cause the screen broke and basically it's way 86 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,120 too much fucking money for a screen. Not gonna lie. I could, uh, I'd rather, it was, it was enough 87 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:48,400 to actually like put up some more money down and replace it, uh, replace the whole thing with a 88 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:55,680 different laptop. So that's where I'm at currently. Yeah, I've been there. I have a 2012 Mac book and, 89 00:09:55,680 --> 00:10:01,680 uh, I, I now have a 21 that I use for work and stuff, but the 2012 is, is still just kind of 90 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:06,320 taken along. I bought a new computer because, because the screen broke, but then I found a 91 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:12,880 screen online on eBay for like $80. So yeah, they, they keep going. It's nice. 92 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:24,800 I had to be myself to cough. Um, but, um, okay. So I want to give a background, a brief background 93 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:29,200 real quick, whenever, um, to the audience members that might not know who you are. 94 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:41,120 Yeah. Yeah. So I, let's see. So I write the coracle Nostra client. Um, I, uh, just like kind of my life 95 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:49,360 history is I live in Idaho and, um, it's nice there. And, uh, I got into Bitcoin in 2020 about the same 96 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,680 time that I started looking into decentralized social media, the two weren't really connected. 97 00:10:53,680 --> 00:11:02,560 It was just, um, sort of a coincidence. Uh, you know, it was around the election, of course. Um, 98 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:12,320 and so I was like, I quit Facebook in 2017, um, but I didn't quit Twitter and I realized that, 99 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:17,200 well, I didn't really expect Twitter to censor. And then they started doing that. And, uh, so I 100 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:24,240 looked around and I found scuttlebutt and, um, that was neat, but it wasn't really like a solution, 101 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:30,160 um, that scales. So I just didn't do anything about it. And I kind of shrugged and said, 102 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:35,680 I hope someone else solves the problem. And a year later, no one had. So at the beginning of 2022, 103 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:42,240 I started writing a, uh, protocol called blaze point. You can find it on GitHub and it's really 104 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:48,800 pretty similar to Noster. It's more focused on social media. Um, so it's a little bit more fully 105 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:56,000 specified, uh, also, you know, over HTTP and stuff. So some slight differences and it was more focused 106 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:02,240 on what I wanted to solve. Um, so two weeks later I discovered Noster and I tried to convince Fiat 107 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:10,960 Jaff to use my protocol instead. But, uh, uh, yeah. And I kept like working on my protocol and then 108 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:17,440 in October I was finally like, well, I guess it turns out that writing a protocol for decentralized 109 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:23,120 social media yourself, like by yourself is not only hard, but also kind of pointless. So I just 110 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:29,520 switched over to working on Noster instead. And, uh, over Thanksgiving break, since I had the week 111 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:37,600 off, um, I just, uh, kind of pounded out the first version of coracle and I wasn't going to share it 112 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:47,120 with anyone, but, um, but Fiat Jaff or, uh, Leonardo, uh, I'm not sure which one founded on 113 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:53,280 GitHub and told Fiat Jaff and then they were like, you should share it. And so I did. Um, and then 114 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:59,440 a couple of weeks later, Jack Dorsey tweeted about Noster and it was very exciting. Uh, cause I don't, 115 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,640 like I said, I don't get out. So Jack Dorsey followed me and tweeted, retweeted my stuff 116 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:13,280 and that was exciting. And then, um, in December I applied for a grant with Futo in Austin and, uh, 117 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:20,880 drove my whole family, my wife and four kids down to Austin in February and, uh, just finished that 118 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:28,240 up yesterday. So after this nest, I'm, uh, at eight o'clock central time, I'm going to hop in the car 119 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:37,600 and we're going to start driving up, uh, back up to Idaho. So that's me. That's incredible. Oh, wow. 120 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:45,120 I have, I have a ton of questions about coracle to be honest, cause, uh, I'm fairly new to it. Um, 121 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:52,880 I found it, uh, through Derek. Derek introduced me to it when he was, uh, cause he was actually 122 00:13:52,880 --> 00:14:00,560 explaining lists to me. And this seems to be like the only client that, um, had lists that he liked, 123 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:09,360 um, interacting with. Uh, I, I just wanted to know more about lists overall, cause I don't know 124 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,320 enough. And one of the things that I kept on, like, that I was like, you know, that was actually 125 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:19,120 answered here. Uh, I think Betty Berisha was the one that answered it. Cause I was asking him, 126 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:24,560 Hey, how do I even like find the list that I've been curating? Cause, uh, I keep adding people to 127 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:30,000 this list, but like on this client, I can't find anywhere that says list and I can find the whole 128 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:35,680 list. Um, so they actually told me about this other site called Lister. Yeah. I found this 129 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:44,240 through yesterday. Lister is awesome. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. So my goal with lists was actually 130 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:51,120 custom feeds. So kind of, kind of advancing the whole give, give the user control over their 131 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:58,640 algorithm and, um, allow people to have different views into Noster. And really like the main thing 132 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:04,880 that I wanted to accomplish was, uh, helping people navigate relays. Um, which is kind of, 133 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:12,320 kind of tricky. It's kind of an abstract problem right now because relays mostly have the same data 134 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:19,840 on them. There's not really like, there's not a lot of cultural cohesion or topical cohesion 135 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:27,280 on any given relay. And maybe there are, and if anyone has any like favorite relays that, uh, 136 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:33,280 that are sort of group-like, let me know. Cause I would like to see something like that. Um, in, 137 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:39,120 in practice, I kind of hope that that's where relays end up eventually rather than kind of 138 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:45,040 replicating all the data across all the relays, which seems to be the de facto standard right now. 139 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:51,680 So the goal with lists was really to allow people to, um, you know, like open up a relay and see the 140 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,400 global feed on it. And then if it's the kind of thing they want, they can add that to a list. 141 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,320 And then you have a list with just a relay and there's a custom view that you can add to your 142 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:07,600 feed. And then, you know, you can also filter it by hub key or by topic. So it is, it ended up being 143 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:13,200 like a really, uh, traditional just lists feature, but the relays dimension is what's really 144 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:20,480 interesting to me. Yeah. Now that you mentioned it, um, actually, uh, we had Mazin and Katie on, 145 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:28,160 for our first hour of this. Yeah. Yeah. And they spoke about some super, super interesting things, 146 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:35,920 especially, um, making something like, uh, um, I'm trying to remember what the name is of the 147 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:41,280 social media where content creators are valued. Do you remember that name of the social media 148 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:48,240 channel that they compared it to? Um, it's all right. Well, it's the social media where like, 149 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:56,880 it has tiers for, um, for, for them to like, uh, subscribe to you, to your content. Um, I have it 150 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,800 right at the tip of my tongue. It's like a super popular site, not Patreon, Patreon. Yes. Yeah. 151 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:09,040 Yeah. So something like Patreon, uh, for specific, uh, content creators, like, you know, like, um, 152 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,920 that do niche stuff, like let's say if it's only fans, right. Uh, specific to them. And what you 153 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,640 just said, like kind of reminded me of that, like, uh, uh, like a content, uh, like a content 154 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:25,280 specific really, that doesn't have any double, um, events of any kind is just specifically reading 155 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:30,000 and writing for these people that are subscribed to it. And like, um, maybe you have the, you know, 156 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,560 the read one, I mean the right one. Uh, but then you have to like subscribe for the read one as 157 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,200 well. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. It's pretty interesting. And then you can have 158 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:44,240 lists of the content creators on that really, um, I don't know. It's super cool. Yeah. Mazin has a 159 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,800 lot of good ideas. I've chatted with him a little bit lately. I think he has a really good vision 160 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:54,320 for where, where relays should go. Relays are such a cool primitive. And I don't think everyone, 161 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:59,360 I don't think anyone has fully thought through, you know, this is like a truism in Noster. Everyone's 162 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:05,920 like, I don't think anyone understands what Noster is. Uh, and I think that's totally right. Relays 163 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:11,840 are, are just like a web socket connection with a bunch of events. So you could do really weird 164 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:18,240 things where you could create a relay that does content recommendations and creates and self signs 165 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:25,040 events, um, using some new kind, uh, lazily, right? So you connect to the relay, it doesn't have a 166 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:32,480 database and you just ask, like, recommend me some content. And then it signs some, some event that 167 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:39,680 says, I'm a relay and I recommend this kind one content and delivers that to you. And then you 168 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,480 load up the kind one, uh, or, or, or something like that. I guess that's, that's more complicated 169 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,360 than it needs to be. But, you know, you can have relays that serve whatever kind of weird, uh, 170 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:56,720 proprietary stuff they want, whether it's content recommendations or just like kind of grouping, uh, 171 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:04,560 grouping some, some other set of pub keys stuff or like, and filtering them out. So like maybe, 172 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:12,400 you know, it would have all of my, uh, notes, but not the replies or something like that. And so you 173 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,200 get like a higher signal relay. Anyway, I think of relays as like potentially being a tool for 174 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:23,120 publishers to, to be like, here's a magazine or like, you know, like a zine or the indie zine kind 175 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:29,120 of things. And, um, and then you just subscribe to that relay and you look at its global feed and 176 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:36,080 there you go. Like you get all the, the issues of that magazine, uh, loaded up as kind one or as 177 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:43,040 long form content or whatever it might be. Um, yeah, I, I think there's a ton of potential and I 178 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:48,000 don't really know exactly what that's going to look like. Yeah. One of the things that they said 179 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,280 was all the ability to search a relay, like to search within a relay. Um, that sounded super 180 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,880 interesting, especially with like all the different parameters that they had thought up already. Um, 181 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:04,400 it's, it's interesting that that's like, uh, I don't know. It's just, that's really interesting. 182 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:10,960 To me, um, it kind of reminded me of, um, like a search engine in a way. Um, I don't know. It's, 183 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:16,320 it's interesting. Yeah. I know there are some that support search. I think, I think Nostra.wine 184 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:23,360 supports search. I have it integrated in, in, uh, in coracle. If you go to the search page and you 185 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:29,440 type in a query, it'll attempt to send a search query along. Uh, a lot of relays will reject it. 186 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:35,600 Um, but the ones that support it, uh, will allow you to actually search, search profiles, um, which 187 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:42,560 is, uh, it's a big difference. Like before, before I added that last week, um, it would only search 188 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,600 profiles that had already been loaded, uh, by coracle. And so, you know, if you were looking for 189 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,080 a particular person, you couldn't find them unless you scan their QR code or something like that. 190 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,840 So the search improved the, the user experience by like, 191 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:03,840 probably more than anything else. Yeah. This is a problem that I believe all clients currently have. 192 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:10,480 Um, and crazy how it's just, uh, you know, doing, it's just the, the relay at the end of the day, 193 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,800 being able to utilize it correctly. So, uh, MindTest, can you explain a little bit of how, 194 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,200 how was it exactly that you were able to do it? Like, um, and does it, does it actually like, uh, 195 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,000 cause yeah, I had the same problem where I don't, if I don't follow that person, I've never loaded 196 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,760 their profile, they're not going to show up when I search them, um, like search their ad pub. So yeah. 197 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:38,320 Yeah. And of course, um, you know, search isn't a perfect solution either, because maybe the relays 198 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:44,640 that you're connected to don't have the profile you're looking for. So I, you know, Mike, Mike 199 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:51,360 Dilger, Dilger has talked about this a little bit as far as like, we should probably be replicating 200 00:21:51,360 --> 00:22:00,880 kind zero and, uh, NIP 65, uh, stuff more aggressively. So, so most relays would have 201 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,560 everyone's profiles. So it's all searchable. And then once you find someone, then you can, 202 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,480 then you can like start navigating the network to find them. But yeah, as far as how I did it, 203 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:14,400 I don't know which NIP it is. Um, not sure which one it is, but I think it's, I think it's, 204 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:22,080 um, but there's, uh, there's one that just defines an extra search key on a, on a rec. Um, 205 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:30,240 let me see if I can find it. Uh, yeah, I don't, I don't see it on the NIPs page, but yeah, 206 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,440 it's in there somewhere and you just say search and then you give it a string and, uh, the relay 207 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:42,880 can ignore it or, um, or actually apply the search to your query. Um, but yeah, like search is really 208 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:50,640 hard to do well. You can, you can add it to your Postgres database or whatever. Um, and Postgres 209 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:57,280 has some full tech support, but it's not super, I mean, it's enough, but it's not super enterprise 210 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:04,640 level. So eventually you'll need like a elastic search cluster or something like that in order 211 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,400 to really fulfill search queries. And then of course you might want structured queries. So, um, 212 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:16,000 um, right now search is just kind of the bare minimum. Um, and I don't know if more features 213 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,600 should be added to the official version of search or if search should be implemented by like third 214 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:28,640 party indexing things. Um, I have opinions about extensions too, but, uh, I've, I've written on, 215 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:34,880 about that on my blog. Where, uh, if you, if you want to plug that in, uh, now's the perfect 216 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:41,920 time to plug it. Yeah. It's just at blog.coracle.social. Um, it loads kind of slow because the blog is, 217 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:48,320 is run on Nostr. I don't know if that's why it might be my hosting provider, but, um, it uses 218 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:58,080 the end blog by, uh, let's see, I'm going to plug, uh, Jikani. Um, I'm not sure if I got his name right, but, um, 219 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:06,960 um, yeah, it's, it's a cool, cool, like group of concept blog, blog engine that runs based on the, 220 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:17,600 uh, what 348, uh, or 30,048 long form content, uh, kind. So my entire blog is on Habla or Obla as well. 221 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,880 Oh, that's dope. I think it's cool. Yeah. I fucking love Obla. It took me less time to set up my blog 222 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:30,240 on Nostr than it did to set up my blog on Pelican, which is a Python static blogging thing. 223 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:37,600 Damn. Nostr is just so awesome. That's incredible. Every day, every day, I, like, I literally see 224 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:44,000 something new and shiny and beautiful come out. And I love how everybody's attention just like, uh, 225 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:50,400 automatically it's, it's drop everything else and just go full on like full throttle on this 226 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:56,000 because now's the time. Yeah. I used to have a lot of FOMO about that. And I still kind of do, 227 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,880 but I have like FOMO calluses now because every day it's like, oh, there's something else to feel 228 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:06,960 like you're missing out on. And when I look at what I want to spend my time on, it's like, 229 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,840 do I want to start a new project or do I want to make all the things that are wrong with Coracle 230 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:17,120 better, uh, and add features to Coracle. And it's always like, well, I'll just keep doing what I'm 231 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:24,480 doing. Um, but it feels like I, you know, I've only made one product. Uh, I think it's pretty, 232 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:31,680 pretty like pretty full featured. Um, but, uh, but meanwhile, Pablo is out there like pounding out, 233 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,720 uh, something new every six hours or something like that. Yeah. It's down to like almost every 234 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:45,360 six minutes now. So yeah, it's the, it's the Nostr time warp, uh, you know, like what, what 235 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:52,960 it's been like five months since, since, uh, Nostr blew up and it feels like it's been five years, 236 00:25:52,960 --> 00:26:02,720 10 years. It really does. It really does. Of, uh, all the, all the developers, like, do you know 237 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:09,600 how many developers there are? My impression is like maybe like one or 200 active developers, 238 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:15,840 but it's super hard to say whether it's more or less. It's, I have, actually I have no idea. 239 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:21,280 I've seen that there's lists around, um, when it comes down to guides on who to follow, there's a 240 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:27,600 whole dev list, which is amazing. Um, cause you guys are, you guys are the rock stars here. Um, 241 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:34,720 and no, I have no idea to be honest, but 200 active developers seems like, are like a really good, 242 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:42,320 um, number for it. I believe we have how, how many years is it that you're, uh, cause there's, 243 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:49,120 I forgot what was Primal Primal.net tells you like how many active end pubs there are, right? But, 244 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:56,320 um, it's not a good, uh, it's not a good read, right? Since it's only like, uh, based on if 245 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:02,560 they've published one node and have one follower or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well says 246 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:09,840 Primal says there's 27 million public keys, which I don't believe that. Yeah, there's no way. Uh, 247 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:15,840 it says 478,000 users. I think that's probably a little high too. Yeah. That's a little high. I, 248 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:23,680 I cut that in half maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the stats I've been going off of on Nostra.band, 249 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:31,440 I don't know how they calculate their, their, uh, like high quality pub B, but it's like 18,000 250 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:39,200 weekly active users, which I think that makes a lot more sense. Um, actually that feels a little 251 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:45,040 bit low to me. So I don't know. Who knows. Damn. I should have asked them. Um, we had them here. 252 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:51,840 Not. Oh yeah. Yeah. I really wish I would have asked them. Um, he's, he's bro. Oh my God. The 253 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:59,040 work that he's doing right now. Uh, when I was with our band is top notch. I love it. Um, every day, 254 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,240 every day that I look on here, there's a whole bunch of new updates now that you could actually 255 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:08,000 log in and do a whole bunch of new, uh, new cool stuff. Like he's, he posted about like all those 256 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,120 new updates. I believe he posted about them yesterday. Um, and we talked about a couple of 257 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:20,400 them today. Um, Ethan, if we also had Ethan on and he was super excited to, to speak to, um, to him. 258 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:28,000 Um, it was, it was a super, super, super interesting conversation. Um, some of the techie 259 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:36,640 talk, um, got over my head, right? Just cause I just didn't understand it. Um, but overall, um, 260 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,400 it sounds like, it sounds like he's just keeps on doing the right things and making the right, 261 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,440 you know, um, cool things. Like, uh, I, I'm interested in the RSS feeds and the API. 262 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,600 Yeah. That's where you can just like create an RSS feed, uh, or you create a pub key based on 263 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,800 an RSS feed or something like that. Uh, you could even create an RSS feed based on a hashtag. 264 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:08,160 Oh, nice. Yeah. And have that whole hashtag, uh, on a site. If you like, if you just want it to be 265 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,600 like, uh, this is something I was going to tell, um, I was going to tell Walker, Walker, you could 266 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:22,240 just grab that, um, RSS feed from Flister and put it on the site. Yeah. So what would be cool is if 267 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:28,400 these RSS feeds also published to a, a public key or like a virtual relay, like wine has, 268 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:29,120 Oh yeah. 269 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,760 is that you would not only have an RSS feed, but you would also have a custom feed within 270 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:41,200 NoSphere that you could subscribe to. That is true. Holy shit. I had this idea a while ago about 271 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:47,120 oracles. Um, and it's kind of like come up in a bunch of different ways, but, uh, it'd be cool to 272 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:53,680 be able to make oracles really easily. Um, you know, based on whatever, like a temp, like a 273 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:59,040 thermometer in my garden or something like that, but also, you know, uh, isn't there a tool somewhere 274 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,800 that lets you put in an RSS feed and then integrate it with NoSphere? I can't remember. 275 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,000 Let me, I think I know what you're talking about, but let me just check my bookmarks real quick. 276 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:21,120 I gave up on bookmarking stuff on NoSphere. I have a text file with like 50 or a hundred links 277 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:27,120 and, uh, I just got tired of maintaining it. So I just try to remember everything. But of course 278 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:32,240 the naming conventions on NoSphere are impossible to follow. So I always forget, forget what I'm 279 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,080 looking for. 280 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,520 Yeah. I don't remember the name that, that it's get, that it has this, so I can't even fucking 281 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:44,640 like find it correctly. It's not, I tried looking for anything that said RSS, but no, I couldn't 282 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:51,840 find it. I guess I don't search for NOS because that matches everything. I get the feeling 283 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:58,000 sometimes that people don't realize coracle is on Noster, um, because it's not called Nostracle or 284 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:04,400 something. Yeah, that's so true. I should rename it to Nostracle. 285 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,440 Holy shit. And who's, who's, uh, cause you're, you do the backend, correct? 286 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,280 Uh, there, I do everything on coracle. There's not really a backend. There's, there's like a 287 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,040 little server, there's two little servers that are kind of helpers, but they're totally optional. 288 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,240 You can, they're meant to be self-hostable pretty easily. So if you go to the settings, you can 289 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:32,960 change, change which servers you're connected to. Um, and then I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, 290 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:40,000 um, and then I anonymize all the data that I send to my usage end point. So if you, if you configure 291 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,440 those, uh, those links, then I don't even know you're using coracle. 292 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,200 Wow. Holy shit. 293 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:55,680 But, uh, yeah. So I don't collect IPs or anything like that. Um, I'm not like a huge privacy, 294 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:02,880 uh, like nerd. Um, I just know that lots of people value it and I value it too. So I tried to 295 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:09,920 make it easy, uh, or just, just avoid violating privacy accidentally. Right. Um, but, uh, yeah, 296 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,920 one of them is, uh, duffel putt is just a little server that helps me do integrated image uploads 297 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:25,840 and link previews. And then, um, multiplexer is, uh, it allows you to, um, kind of, uh, 298 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:32,240 filter all your, uh, web socket connections through a server. And, um, and so the server 299 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:40,960 de-duplicates events for you. So it can reduce bandwidth by a lot. Um, and, uh, it's, um, 300 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,440 I don't know, it, it, it increases latency a little bit, but also reduces load on the, 301 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,080 on the client when you're using it. So as far as performance, it probably is kind of just a wash. 302 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:58,160 Um, but, uh, but yeah, you have to, you have to verify fewer signatures when you're using 303 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:04,800 multiplexer. So, um, it, it helps with battery life and, and, uh, data, uh, like bandwidth. So 304 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:11,680 that's the only thing. Everything else is client side. And, um, that, that was kind of a goal of 305 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:19,040 core goal too, is to build something that, uh, if at all possible doesn't, doesn't contribute to the 306 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:25,840 centralization of no stir at all. Um, so there's no service that anyone relies on. And actually, 307 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:32,400 I've also been working on making core goal, um, itself, self-hostable. So, uh, just this week, 308 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,920 I released an update that lets you, uh, kind of white label core goal. So you can choose, um, 309 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,440 your color scheme and add like a logo image and change the name of the app. And then you can just 310 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:49,360 put it on your own domain. And, um, now, now you have a, and there's also a way to hard code, 311 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:56,160 which relays it connects to. So you can create a private social network on, uh, on the no stir 312 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:02,720 protocol. That's incredible. I'm actually on the GitHub right now, I believe, uh, core goal. No, 313 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,600 I'm on the wrong one. I'm on core code duffel, duffel pod. Oh yeah. That's the little helper 314 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,240 server. There's not much there. Yeah. I don't, I was looking at contributors and stuff like that. 315 00:34:12,240 --> 00:34:22,240 I see Tom stab. I see. Yeah. That's me. I tried to be anonymous with no stir at first, but I 316 00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:28,560 dox myself really quickly. Nice. Cause of the gap. Yeah. It was mostly, I think it was mostly 317 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:35,120 the GitHub. I set up a different GitHub and I, uh, set up a different SSH key on my computer and 318 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:42,800 stuff. Um, but then I forgot to use it. And so I committed using my regular account. Oh man. 319 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:49,840 Don't worry. I also dox myself the other day. Uh, when I, when I posted, uh, the stats of how long, 320 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:55,520 uh, uh, how much I've been using my phone. Oh yeah. Yeah. I didn't know that they, 321 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:02,400 they literally had your name right there. And then, uh, yeah, nice. Yeah. No one, no one except the 322 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:13,440 FBI cares. So literally, literally. Uh, so the, the other contributor, uh, here is actually, 323 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:19,200 is that actually Kieran right here that we have on the, on the, on the audience, uh, from Snork 324 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:26,640 or is it a different Kieran? Uh, oh, it did, uh, did Kieran have a, let's see. 325 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:32,640 I don't get a lot of, uh, pull requests, but I think I vaguely remember that. Let me see. 326 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:42,640 Let me look at more contributors. I'm going to the insights page, but I probably shouldn't be there. 327 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:49,760 I look for your job. Oh yeah. I guess, I guess Kieran does have a pull request on duffle bud. I can't 328 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:57,840 remember what, which one that was, but that was dope. That was very dope. He, he was, yeah. 329 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,120 He added the Docker build. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. 330 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:10,720 Nice. Very nice. Uh, do you mind if we open it up, uh, to like a live Q and A so the audience could 331 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:17,760 ask you questions. No, go for it. That's great. Awesome guys. Uh, audience, uh, if you have any 332 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,640 questions for Hadoobad, uh, please raise your hand and we'll bring you right up. 333 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:31,200 We'll give you some time, but I see that we have, we still have, Oh, Ethan, he must have gone to sleep and woken up again. 334 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,200 I saw Pablo in here. Uh, he must have left for a little bit. Oh yeah. 335 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:47,440 Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 336 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,960 I saw Pablo in here. Uh, he must have left for a little bit. Oh yeah. 337 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,120 He actually heard what we had said and laughed. 338 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,040 All right. Not everybody don't, you know, everybody don't raise your hand at once. Come on now. 339 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,440 I think we have Aaron, um, do you have your hand up? Cause you've had it up for like the 340 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,000 longest. I don't know if it was a mistake or not. Aaron, you're up on stage, brother. 341 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,880 If you have any questions for Hadoobad, now's the time. 342 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:30,800 Nah, I think he had his hand up by mistake. 343 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,000 All right. AFK. 344 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:43,600 Uh, well he raised his hand again and oh, we have Cheri as well. Hello, Cheri. How are you? 345 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,800 Hi. Hey, Cheri. 346 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:55,120 Hi. Hello. Uh, I think because I just joined, so probably like you guys already talk about it. 347 00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:01,600 So I just gonna ask it anyway. Yeah. So like, are you still like working on core protocol four times? 348 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:08,720 I was working on core protocol full time until yesterday. Uh, do you, so this week I, I, uh, 349 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:13,200 haven't figured out how I can work full time on core protocol yet. So I'm going back to my normal 350 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:20,640 job and I'm probably going to do that for another month and then quit at the end of May. Um, and I 351 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:26,640 don't have anything figured out for the end of May. So hopefully I can figure something out by then. 352 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:34,880 I've been talking to VCs, um, and I might do, see if I can charge for core protocol or do crowd 353 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:42,480 funding or work with someone else or something. Uh, I really want to work full time on it. Um, 354 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:48,960 or, or just on Nostra in general. I think Nostra is super important, super cool. And, um, like I've 355 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:54,240 heard Pablo and, uh, G sovereignty in their podcast recently say we're going to be doing 356 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:59,200 sovereignty in their podcast recently say the same thing. They just can't think about anything else. 357 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,280 I can't think about anything else. I just am always thinking about Nostra and I have way more 358 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:11,200 ideas than I can ever put together. So yeah, it's just like, I have to, I have to keep working on it. 359 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:17,120 So yeah, I'll be kind of like in maintenance mode for the next month or so, but, uh, but yeah, 360 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,320 core is not going to go away. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. Because I have this question 361 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:28,560 because I think it's you, I cannot remember clearly like in the North trivia, you said you're 362 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:33,840 going to work on car, like full time for three months, right? And you've got some funding, 363 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:39,840 something like that. Yeah. So it's almost the time to decide. I just certainly remember. Yeah. 364 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,880 Exactly. Yeah. Uh, I got a grant from Futo. They're, they're a cool little organization 365 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:52,160 in Austin, Texas. Uh, so they, they gave that to me from, uh, from February through, through April. 366 00:39:52,160 --> 00:40:02,400 So, um, yeah, that just ran out. Did you figure out any like pro profit model business model around 367 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:10,560 Nostra or like in general? I have a lot of ideas, but the problem is I don't think there are enough 368 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:19,360 users to sustain a lot of businesses right now. Um, you know, there's 18,000 weekly active users. 369 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:28,960 So if you wanted to make a hundred thousand dollars a year, let's say, um, then you'd have 370 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:37,920 to make 8,300 a month and 13,000 weekly active users. You'd have to charge each of them 50 cents 371 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:44,240 a month, which is, um, not impossible, but there's so many different people and products in the space. 372 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:50,800 I feel like if all of them became profitable, uh, or even if 10 of them became profitable, 373 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:57,920 um, it would be, it would become really expensive for users. Like Zaps, Zaps feel like such a high 374 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,760 volume thing right now. And in some ways they are because it's value for value and people are being 375 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:10,160 generous with that, but, um, it's not really enough to sustain a lot of real development. 376 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:16,960 So yeah, I don't know what the answer to that is. There's lots of ideas I have for, 377 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:25,200 for making a profitable business, um, after Nostra scales, but, um, but right now I feel like 378 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:33,280 people have to basically build products on Nostra in a way that you can get non-Nostra users 379 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:39,680 to use your product. So that's kind of why one reason I've been working on the white labeling 380 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:45,040 stuff for Coracle, where you can deploy your own instance, because then maybe I can find a way to 381 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:52,640 sell private social networks to, um, to like organizations and businesses. And then at some 382 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:58,560 point in the future I can say, oh, you know, it's also interoperable with Nostra and, uh, now Nostra 383 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,200 is a big thing. So do you want to just connect your private social network to the, to the wider 384 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:10,880 network? Um, and so I can sort of compete with Slack, uh, in a, in some kind of niche, um, and 385 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:18,000 then down the road kind of use it as an onboarding tool for, for, for Nostra. Um, I don't know, I 386 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,920 don't know if that would work, but that's kind of the only idea I can think of that doesn't require 387 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,520 more adoption. Does that, does that make sense? I'm curious what, what people's thoughts are on 388 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,800 that because, um, I know people are trying to make business models work. I just don't know 389 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,120 to what extent, uh, you know, Snort is actually paying everyone's bills and stuff like that. 390 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:49,600 So there's a, um, I believe, uh, there's a couple ideas out there, um, different clients doing the 391 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:56,720 subscription models, uh, and maybe pay walls. I, I believe I spoke to Kieran about that exact same 392 00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:05,120 thing. Um, because he's, you know, he relates to this, like I believe all, not all, there's like 393 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:10,960 two that are pretty good right now. Well, no, I'm pretty sure all of them, all of them are not like 394 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:16,720 profitable at the very moment. Um, unless you have like a big grant that was given to you by, you 395 00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:22,400 know, someone, whatever. So point is like, yeah, devs right now, client devs are not being paid 396 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:28,080 what they're, you know, what they do for, uh, their work. So yeah, making these things like, 397 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,880 uh, pay walls for certain things and like allowing like that to be a feature and then, you know, 398 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:38,160 charging a fee for it. Um, and also like, you know, creating a subscription model where you, 399 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:44,320 you know, you have certain features that are premium, uh, for the user, uh, being given to 400 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,760 them if they subscribe for a certain price a month. Um, I think these are all models that are like, 401 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:57,600 you know, uh, that should work. Um, in, you know, in, uh, they should work and I believe that they, 402 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:03,440 they could, especially with what you said, like, you know, with our user base growing, um, 403 00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:11,280 at a spending, uh, spend a little rate, especially if we, uh, if we cater to the kind of, um, 404 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:20,800 creators that will, uh, shed light on our, you know, on this protocol, um, in the correct way, 405 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:27,680 you know what I mean? Um, like, yeah, like that. Yeah. Yeah. Onboarding influencers or just people 406 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:34,080 who, who are going to get zapped, uh, and, and, uh, and share, share the protocol and the products 407 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:39,600 with, with everyone else with their audience. I think that's cool. The, the zap splits idea is 408 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:44,400 really neat too. If a client can say like, you know, do you want to give me, do you want to donate 409 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:51,200 1% of your, of your zaps? Uh, I think that makes sense too. Another model that I think really 410 00:44:51,200 --> 00:45:01,360 promising is, um, charging for services. So like, um, charging for social media clients, I think 411 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,800 it's actually possible on Nostr just because the culture is so different, but you know, like 412 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:12,560 Twitter charging for, um, for the badges or even if they just charged for like features or something 413 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:21,760 like that, um, there's, there's, that's always been pretty unpopular. Um, I think because, uh, 414 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:27,520 just like for a variety of reasons, um, not least of which that people are not super willing to pay 415 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:32,320 for things that they don't need, especially like if we're going to into like a recession or 416 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,880 depression here, um, people are not going to be excited about paying for social media. That's, 417 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:42,800 that's the first thing, that's the first builder not going to pay for. So anyway, um, the other 418 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:49,760 model that I'm interested in is, is, uh, having services, uh, like third party backend services 419 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:55,600 charge. So charging for image uploads or like multiplexer saves you bandwidth. So having 420 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,840 multiplexer charge for bandwidth, uh, that the user uses, then, you know, you're basically, 421 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,840 you're basically arbitraging, uh, compute resources because you have to pay for storage and you have 422 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,640 to pay for bandwidth as a service provider. And so saying like, we're just passing this along with 423 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:19,520 a markup. Um, that seems promising to me too. And then it allows, it allows you to not have to pay 424 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:24,640 right out of the gate for social media, which is kind of like kind of a bad look. Um, but 425 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:31,200 kind of a bad look, I think, um, potentially just, you know, and how it's, how it's perceived by 426 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:37,840 end users, uh, who aren't bought in to the culture and everything. Um, and then also, you know, 427 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:46,000 a whole other thing is referrals. So, um, if, if third party services like content recommendation 428 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:52,720 engines or whatever can charge users for, for access to their service, um, as, as like an add 429 00:46:52,720 --> 00:47:00,160 on, then the client that integrates those things can get a referral fee, right? So if there's, um, 430 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:06,000 if there's like a, a publisher that wants, wants their stuff and it's a, it's a subscribe only 431 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:11,200 magazine, if I surface that publisher as like a recommended feed in coracle and someone clicks on 432 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:17,120 it and subscribes through coracle, I can, I can report that click to the publisher and then they 433 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:22,400 can give me a cut of the subscription that they, they gain. So you get basically, it's like an 434 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,680 advertising model, except it's an advertising model that aligns with the interests of the users. 435 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:34,640 So rather than inserting a bunch of like curated, um, and targeted ads into people's feeds, 436 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:39,520 so they'll click directly on the product, you know, your users are just looking for good 437 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:46,880 recommendations for, um, additional content or, or whatever, um, services that augment Nostra itself. 438 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,840 And then, um, and then you can, they can pay for those. And then the client that brokered that 439 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:56,640 connection can make a little bit, obviously there's some like perverse incentives in there 440 00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:01,680 and it could go the wrong direction, but, um, but I think it's still, I think it's viable. 441 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,720 Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. That's very interesting. 442 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:16,560 Yeah. Because you mentioned like, I know it's high limit, so it's not, 443 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,720 Oh, wait, sorry. Say that again. I, uh, I miss that. 444 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,800 Sherry, um, if you're speaking, we can't hear you. 445 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:36,720 She sounds very far, right? If you want to refresh your mic. 446 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:47,040 Oh, here's another question. The reason that I kind of feel car will become slower than before. 447 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:52,720 Any particular reason? Oh, okay. Um, like, uh, when did you notice it gets slow? 448 00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:58,880 For around, uh, two weeks, or maybe one week because time on lost is much more faster. 449 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,840 Yeah. Probably recently one week, one or two weeks. 450 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:09,120 Okay. Um, I would guess it's, it's a relay thing. It's hard to tell. Sometimes, um, I did just 451 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:17,200 release an update yesterday that, uh, changes how feeds load. Um, and I don't know, I don't know 452 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:23,040 if it's going to be faster or slower. Uh, it should be faster though. Uh, so maybe try again. 453 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:29,040 And then if it's still slow, um, check on the quality of your relay connections because, um, 454 00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:35,200 Relays, relays are really getting bombarded right now and some of them are holding up pretty well, 455 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:43,280 but, um, but things do tend to slow down during busy times. Um, so, um, I think that's, that's 456 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:49,440 what I'm saying. Um, but things do tend to slow down during busy times. Um, so yeah, it kind of 457 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:56,560 just depends. Um, but performances is something I've been struggling with for a long time. If, 458 00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:01,760 if any, if any of you have used Oracle, like back in January or December, it was basically 459 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:08,720 unusable because my algorithm, uh, wasn't very good for loading feeds. Um, and so I don't want 460 00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:14,320 to mess everything up by just making it impossibly slow. So yeah, let, try it again and let me know, 461 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:19,760 send me a DM or something. If it's still slow. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Do you want to share 462 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:28,400 it and how you do the feed things now? Like your latest update? Which things? Uh, like how, how 463 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:34,960 you get all the feed? Like you mentioned, you, you just update your algorithms, right? Yeah. Yeah. So 464 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,520 I have this cursor abstraction and of course, you know, you've got multiple relays that you're 465 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:45,840 connecting to. So you basically create a cursor with all the relays and you say, you just give it 466 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:52,640 a, um, a default, uh, time Delta to walk back in time. Um, and the reason you need to do that is 467 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:58,960 sometimes relays will, will give you events, uh, out of order. So, you know, you'll just ask for, 468 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:05,280 give me the latest, give me 20 events with a limit and the relay will be, will be like, yeah, sure. 469 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:11,920 Well, here's something from March and, uh, that's, that's pretty much unusable for the way people 470 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:19,200 want their feeds. So you just have to drop that event. Um, so I'm using the window, um, to sort 471 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:24,560 of mitigate that. So like on the main follows feed, I just say, give me everything after six 472 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:33,200 hours ago. And then, um, the, the update to my algorithm that I did this week was I'm paginating 473 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:39,600 feeds, uh, per relay. So before I was kind of doing this complicated heuristic where I was taking 474 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:45,040 the 20th percentile of events, uh, and dropping those, and then taking the 80th percentile of 475 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:52,240 events based on created time and, uh, and kind of conservatively moving my window. And that worked 476 00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:57,440 pretty well, but I was pulling a lot of duplicate events all the time. And so it was really wasteful 477 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:06,400 for bandwidth purposes. So, um, so now I'm keeping track of the, the sliding window, um, as far as 478 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:14,240 like until and since, uh, on a per relay basis. So if one relay has a ton of matches for my filter 479 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:20,480 and it gives me 20 events in the last three minutes, and then another relay is a lot less, 480 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:26,240 less dense, maybe it's like an archival node, and it gives me one, one event for the entire, uh, six 481 00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:35,600 hour, um, time span, then I just won't ask that, that, uh, slower relay or, uh, not slower, less 482 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:42,640 dense relay for any more events until the really dense relay, uh, hits the same window, right? So, 483 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:53,760 um, I'll get like, uh, uh, 120 pages of events from relay A for every page from relay B. So now 484 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:58,320 I'm not asking relay B for the same event over and over, basically. Does that make sense? 485 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:04,560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. I think it should, like theoretically, it should improve the 486 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:11,280 performance. It should. If not performance, it'll improve bandwidth. And if not, then at least it's 487 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:18,160 kind of a cool algorithm that has a lot of... Yeah, yeah. Can I, can I choose, like, which relay I 488 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:24,400 want to read from and which relay I want to write to on Carlyle? Yeah, if you go to the relay settings, 489 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:30,880 there's a toggle. So every relay that you, like, sort of join is a read relay, but the orange button 490 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:36,480 lets you turn off which ones you're writing to. And then also, if you, uh, when you create a note, 491 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,880 uh, you can choose which relay you want to publish to for that individual note as well. 492 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,400 Oh, really? Oh, you added that feature now? Oh, that's super cool. Yeah. 493 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,800 And I spent some time figuring out what the toggle means on the relay setting page. 494 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,840 Yeah. I'm so dumb. I didn't know it means read and write. 495 00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:01,520 It's all buried in... I designed the whole thing myself, so I'm not a UX designer. It's, uh, so 496 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:07,600 it's, it's been a long evolution of that. Um, but also if you reply, if you reply to a note, 497 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:14,560 Coracle will mix in your write relays with, um, with the relays where that note, where the, 498 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:21,280 where the notes author publishes. And so, uh, if you use Coracle, I think authors are more likely 499 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:28,000 to see replies. Um, I'm not sure how often times was that, but that was kind of the whole Nip65 500 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:34,000 gossip model thing a couple months back was, was making an effort to, uh, to, to put notes in 501 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:40,800 in different places. Yeah. I really like in Coracle, you can show, uh, which really you 502 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:47,760 found this event. This is very cool. Yeah. Uh, yeah, that was like, that was one of the most 503 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:53,200 important things I wanted to solve while I was working full-time on Coracle is cause like relays, 504 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:58,160 relays are what makes Nostra special. And, uh, you know, like Primal is a really nice client, 505 00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:05,040 but I, I don't think it really, uh, hews to the spirit of Coracle. I mean, not Coracle, uh, 506 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:11,120 of Nostra, like because it abstracts over all the relays. And so it basically re-centralizes 507 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:16,240 the user experience, uh, on their servers, which is fine. Um, and it's really cool to have an 508 00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:20,400 overview of the whole network. Um, but I'm, I'm trying to do basically the opposite. 509 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,680 Let me check. Oh, oh yeah. When I post a note, I can choose which really I want to publish to. 510 00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:33,760 But when I reply to others, no, I cannot choose. Yeah. Yeah. I, I might add that. I don't want to 511 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:40,480 add too much, too much stuff to the interface, but, um, and it, it, it's, it's kind of smart. 512 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:46,160 So it automatically chooses a bunch of relays rather than, uh, letting the end user choose. 513 00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:52,720 I wanted Coracle to use too. So, but yeah, do you think that would be important? 514 00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:02,080 Do you think, do you think that'd be important to be able to choose which relays, uh, reply gets 515 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:02,720 published to? 516 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:11,680 If she doesn't want to answer, I'll answer. Cause, uh, yeah, I definitely do think so. 517 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:18,000 Um, yeah, hell yeah. What the fuck? Hell yeah. Especially if it's, uh, if it's one of those like, 518 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:22,240 yeah, those who also has questions, just, I really, I really use a lot of Coracle. 519 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,800 What, what would that look like? Like, uh, you know, you're replying to someone and that you 520 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,200 only want to send it to like a private relay or something like that. 521 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:37,280 Exactly. Exactly. It's, it's, let's say it's, uh, that really that this, uh, that Jason is trying 522 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:43,280 to make for not a bot. Uh, let's say we, that actually came out, you know, and I, and I only 523 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:47,280 want to reply to that. So yeah, hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. 524 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:55,280 Um, yeah, I honestly think like there, there should be more private relays for, um, for this 525 00:56:55,280 --> 00:57:01,360 specific, like for us to have, uh, you know, more like diverse, like, uh, little communities of 526 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:02,880 niches and stuff like that. I don't know. 527 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,440 Yeah. A hundred percent. I totally agree with that. One thing I think we need for private relays is 528 00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:13,360 a better onboarding mechanism where, you know, you have a couple different options for how to get, 529 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:17,280 how to register with a private relay. Cause right now it's all done through like DMs or an 530 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:23,040 external site. And that's, that's fine, but it would be cool to be able to connect to a relay 531 00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:28,480 from within a client. And then the relay issues and off challenge. And then the client is like, 532 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:34,720 attempts it. And if it's denied, it shows like a modal or pop-up and says, this relay wants you 533 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,160 to register in order to use it. Do you want to ignore that? Or do you want to go ahead and 534 00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:44,240 register? You can register at this link or you can use this coupon code or you can enter your email 535 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:51,440 or whatever. Um, yeah. Cause, cause, uh, you know, the onboarding experience is just, it's the hardest 536 00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,080 part of the whole thing. And so, yeah, I think that's a good point. 537 00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:58,880 Cause, uh, you know, the onboarding experience is just, it's the hardest part of the whole thing. 538 00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,960 Uh, so smoothing that out would be for private relays would make it a lot more usable. 539 00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:15,600 I agree. Um, shit, uh, this, thank you so much, Hadoobad. Like you've, you've made this time go 540 00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:22,080 by so quickly, uh, with your expertise. Uh, thank you for having me on. It's, it's fun to do my first 541 00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:28,240 nest. You, you ha yo say last. Oh man. I had a lot of fun as well. I'm glad you had fun, man. 542 00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:34,800 For real. I learned so much from you. This is great. This is fucking great. I appreciate you. 543 00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:40,640 Dude, I appreciate you. I hope you guys can survive the next, uh, what do you, what do you got? Um, 544 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,200 how many do we have? I think it's like 10 hours left, right? 10 hours. Nice. 545 00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:56,560 Nice. Man. No, no, no, not 10. Uh, we have 11. 11. 11. Yeah. Wait, wait, actually? Yeah. This is our 13th. 546 00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:07,920 Oh God. Yes. Thank you so much Hadoobad for being on. Like so much of the tech stuff went over my 547 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:13,600 head, which is why I didn't ask much, much of the questions and let Sleepy speak because I'm the 548 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:20,560 last techie guy that has, but it's absolutely amazing what you do. So have you on. Cool. Thanks 549 00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:25,920 guys. Appreciate you, man. Can't wait to have you on next time, man. Uh, I hope you have a great 550 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:43,840 weekend and yeah, man, take care. Much love. You too.