downloads. It's been a little hit or miss for us, for QW and me on our show. So yeah, I feel you,
brother. Oh man, it literally releases like so much dopamine as soon as it happens. It's like,
I don't know what it is. It's like having a post-covid. I don't know how to compare it,
but it feels so much better than anything else I've felt in a while.
Oh man. Yeah, it's amazing to have you here, Avi. Fuck yeah. You're on the Frog Talk on the
24-hour Nest and we're coming in on our 13th hour. No sleep. Just on here talking to you guys.
You guys are what makes Noster fucking amazing. And fuck man, I fucking love you, man.
You, we have so much history in terms of like how my experience has gone here, my journey.
God damn it. It's fucking incredible how you were right there when I needed you the most.
Well, I appreciate you saying that, Sleepy. And look, it's a pleasure to be here. What you guys
are doing is incredible. 24 hours. I certainly can't do that. Not at my age, not with my family
situation. So yeah, kudos to you. Also, hour number 30. Is this the hour when your brain
started melting and I can psychologically manipulate you guys to give me your private keys and
NSAC and whatever else? I think that started two hours ago for me. I'm having my second wave right
now and I'm thinking about getting an energy drink. So, but two hours ago, if you were to ask me
my seat, I'd probably give it to you. Oh man, I'm starting to feel a little weird now,
but I'm with it. I'm with it. Whatever comes, I'm with it. I just need to sit correctly because
I'm sitting really bad right now and my back is going to hate me for this. So I'm just going to
get ready. Thank you, Avi, for coming on, man. And thank you for saying those really kind words. I
want to talk about Plebchain, man. Plebchain, Plebchain Radio, everything you guys got going
on right now. Yeah. Fucking incredible, man. I've been there for a couple of episodes and the ones
that I haven't been able to be there live, I've been able to catch the recording. So I fucking love
it. It's incredible what you guys are doing over there. It's so informative and the way you guys
are like, it's getting better and better every single time. Today you had an intro. Holy shit.
It's incredible. Yeah. So, Sleepy, so you guys are going to do this frog talk every week, right?
That's what I'm hearing. Yeah. The next one is 48 hours and then just double and pass it to the
next one, right? Literally. That's exactly the plan. Well, when you guys do end up doing the
next one, I mean, I don't think it's going to be weekly, obviously, but I'm sure the adrenaline rush
from this is going to drive you to do another one at some point. We should try and coordinate.
I think if you guys had started an hour later, we could have led in nicely into your show
because that's right when our show ends as well. So we should talk about coordinating this the next
time you guys do it. Yeah. No, we definitely should because the way that we planned this shit was
ass and I think everybody could agree on that because we've made a ton of fucking mistakes along
the way. Appreciate you guys for not fucking booing us. We fucked up so much in terms of
all of this shit that it hasn't been easy. We literally, it took us how many days to prepare
this channel? Like maybe four days. I think we spent like three or four days,
three to four days, like 35, 40 hours of nastiness together. Yeah, look, you guys should not be hard
on yourselves. This is no mean feat, right? Pulling off something like this with all the
coordination and then the actual stamina of being able to get through it and getting the recordings
going. So yeah, look, I mean, you can always be self-critical, but just from as an outsider,
from what I'm seeing and all the comments that are coming in, it's nothing but good stuff. So yeah,
you can learn lessons and improve on the next one, but you guys are doing great. I won't worry about
it. Circling back to your original question about Plebchain, right? So there's Plebchain and
Plebchain radio, which is obviously the related concepts, but the Plebchain itself, I can't take
any credit for. So I joined Nostr in that early wave right after Jack posted on Twitter about it,
sometime in mid December of last year. And a few days in, I started seeing this hashtag
plebchain. And I said, what is this? And then I found there's this guy, Quiet Warrior, who'd
started this hashtag. And it took me a while to really understand what this is about. But he was
pushing this concept of everyone is Satoshi, right? We are all Plebchain. We're all Satoshi.
And we are on a platform, we're on a protocol now, right? Which is completely different from
the algorithmic manipulation that we've been facing on Twitter. I'd certainly been there.
I wasn't liking where Twitter was taking me. And QW was in the same boat. And a lot of others
migrated here were in that same boat. Twitter, the algorithm created in my mind,
two classes of users. You had the influencers and the simps, right? And the more of an influencer
you became, the algorithm perpetuated that, right? Your posts got, or your tweets got boosted,
they'd show up at the top, they'd persist over a couple of days. And then if you were a simp,
you'd just be a reply guy or a pride girl on influencer posts and effectively screaming into
the void. So Nostra was the great equalizer. And Plebchain, the concept of we are all Satoshi,
really encapsulated that well. So I think hats off to QW for coming up with that, with a simple
but powerful concept of Plebchain. And he used that and then a lot of others jumped on board,
right? To welcome new folks back when the global feed was just raw, right? You couldn't choose
the relays. You saw everything. And we'd see Plebs joining in saying, hey, I'm new here. I can't see
anything. I can't talk to anyone. What do I do? So we'd jump in and say, hey, follow Plebchain.
And we'd follow them. We'd interact with them. And we just keep doing that and build a community
that way. So Plebchain Radio was an extension of that to take this. Even the posting we were doing
was what we like to think of as lighthearted shitposting, right? It wasn't super serious
stuff. We were mostly talking nonsense. And he said, let's just take this to audio format. And
here we are.
That's fucking incredible, man. It's a beautiful fucking story, especially because I saw it
firsthand. I saw the boat that literally came by and grabbed me off the water while I was drowning.
And you guys...
That's how we found you.
And that's how you found so many other people that I've spoken to and I speak to on the day to day.
And they tell me their experiences and it leads back to you and QW and a couple others finding
them and leading them to Plebchain where the signal lives. So I'm super thankful. Honestly,
grateful, grateful for you guys actually taking the time and doing that. But it's not easy to
spend most of your time on global just finding pleads and helping them find the way
and answering questions that you've already answered countless times.
But you persevere and you do it. So I salute you, man. It's an incredible job.
Sleepy, before you ascribe too much altruism to my motives, I was doing it because it was fun.
I was having a good time.
It is a good time too.
It's a fun time.
It is a fun time. And Sleepy, you had a legendary entrance. I remember that day
vividly sometime in early February when I think you had about 15 relays turned on
and then you'd ask Will a question saying, is this the right number? And they're saying,
no, that's too high. And I think I egged you on and said, no, you can go for more.
And you kept going. You went to 103 relays at one point.
Oh my God. Yeah. I found those notes yesterday on
Nasheed Abed and I couldn't stop laughing because it all happened in the span of a couple hours.
I think it was maybe my first or second hour on here. It all happened so quick.
It happened so quick, man. How something like that could really happen. I literally went on
Twitter and I asked somebody as well. I asked, I forgot who it was.
I forgot who it was. It's going to get me. Oh, I don't know. I asked him. Yo,
because his tweet was the one that I saw and then I saw him retweet the quote tweet
to Jack's tweet that Snowden had made. And holy shit, that was a beautiful, beautiful reference
that he made of what an open protocol is. So I was like, I need to frame that, to be honest.
But at that moment in time, I was like, holy shit, this guy knows how to put words together.
This sounds amazing. And I went and I followed and I clicked on there and showed up. And fuck
yeah, you guys greeted me with the best entrance ever. Better than KC, to be honest. We can talk
about it, but we could discuss it. But mine was better. I had 103 relays on the first two hours,
I think it was, and my phone was cooked. All my data was gone, not gonna lie. But yo, funny enough,
somebody paid somebody. Remember, we had invoices around that time. We didn't have Zaps.
And I said something about that. And somebody ended up being like, I got you or some shit like
that. And like, sound like that might have been me sleepy. I think I might have paid your first
invoice. That's fucking crazy, man. My phone bill was paid for that month, because I lost all the
data that same day. Well, maybe that wasn't me. I didn't pay the phone bill. What? I think you put
an invoice for a couple of three or four KSATs. And then you said, oh, no, this is too high. Don't
worry about it. Oh, shit. Yes, that was you. I remember specifically that. Yeah. That was like
my, my, wow, holy shit. Yeah, I wasn't expecting nobody to pay that. I was that was shitposting
with with with invoices. Back when you can still do that. Holy shit. Thank you, man. Yo, like,
holy fuck. Okay, stop talking about like, about you, Avi. Avi, this is your hour. Okay. Let's
hear your journey. I want to hear more about it, because there must have been a lot of cooler
shit happening on your around your first day around your first week, because I wasn't around
here. I came on. I came on the second of February. I mean, the first of February. So you came on
January, you had a whole month ahead of me. That's a whole year. Well, no, I came on December 15. Oh,
you actually look at that's like two or three years. Holy shit. I will say that those December
and January days were incredibly fun. Because this is global was completely raw and unfiltered.
And yeah, I joined in and I think the on the 16th, or the 15th of December was when will had just
implemented invoices rendering. So earlier, you did you post a, you know, an LNBC invoice, right
into a note, and it wouldn't render as an invoice. I think just around that time, they'd rendered and
I remember Jack was like a kid in a candy store. And when that happened, so around that mid December
timeframe, he was posting these 69 sad invoices, of course, paying other people's invoices as well.
Very generously. But so that was, you know, the first couple of days was that was just us,
you know, we couldn't believe that invoices could render. I mean, now it all seems so obvious,
right? We have zaps and we have a zap life dot lol, where we can go and look at look up all the
stats and everything back then it was, we were privatives back then. It's watching an LNBC render
into that nice, you know, nice looking invoice was rocket science for us. So we had fun with that.
We had these random bot storms that would take up global people started to create figured out how
to create bots back then. So we'd have hundreds and hundreds upon hundreds of bots just posting
nonsense, right? On global and, and then we went through this phase, Jack included, where we post
things like Marked Essay from bot storm of December 18 2022. Let's see what else happened. And then,
oh, yeah, then I, I, because we had invoices back then, I came up with this really silly game,
which people seem to enjoy, which is the numbers game, I said, look, post an invoice in my reply,
with, with any three digit number in it, if I like the number, I'll pay it, if I don't, I'll tell you
why. And so, and this game took off for some reason. It was, I mean, we're talking about a few
cents here, right? Three digit invoices, but people would post, you know, the standard 615,
420, you know, whatever else, of course, the more ambitious ones would post 999. And I'd roast
those in the replies. In what I thought was a good natured way, I think the people who received the
replies thought so as well. No one got upset at my roasting. And yeah, this game went on for about a
week. I do it two or three times a day. I was, it was amazing fun. So that was the invoice game.
The other thing we did in back in the early, I'm talking like this is centuries ago, but it's just
four or five months ago. It feels like centuries ago. The other thing we did was we discovered
that Will had a GPT 3.5 bought up there, right? So this is again around the mid December time frame.
So people started having conversations. I started a conversation series where I'd pretend that the
GPT 3 was my work. So I'd say GPT 3 is summoning you, present yourself at once. And then I would
ask sort of in that high-handed manner, this is obviously a game, but in that, you know, sort of
very supercilious high-handed manner, I'd be asking it questions about completely random things and
then roasting it in the replies if it gave me a nonsense answer, which most of the time it did.
Right. So that was fun too. A lot of people were doing similar things like that. Yeah. So that,
you know, those types of, just fun and pointless and goofy behavior for me was what encapsulated
certainly December and January, the first couple of months in Nostra. And that's what made it so
much fun. I mean, I'd seen nothing like this before. It was, you know, a hundred percent happiness
and nothing negative. Didn't have a single negative conversation with anyone. I mean,
there'd be one or two people who would say the odd thing and you know what? You just ignore it.
And this is happening across the board. You know, you'd have the odd negative statement
and no one would engage with the negative statements. You say, you know what? Yeah,
I'm just here to be happy. So yeah, that's what it was like, man. And that's why I'm here for life.
This is my home now.
I fucking love that. I fucking love that, man. It really, it's different here, man. It's different.
The vibe, the whole thing is different. Like, man, you said it so well. You said it so well,
you said it so well. You said it so well, Javi. Honestly, I really wish QW was here with you, man,
because he's somebody super special, just to say the least. He's incredible, man. You guys had,
I can't imagine when you were both here experiencing all those things together.
Because when I got here, you guys were already super tight. It was fucking incredible the way
like you're, I don't know, you guys like seemed like you were friends for like,
like a long, long time. And I come to find out you guys met on here as well, right?
Yeah, we did. Now, I'm glad, I hope he's not listening to this as an anon,
because his ego doesn't need any further stoking with all the good stuff he said,
Sleepy. But yeah, I think it started off as a friendly rivalry, in a sense,
Sleepy, right? If we would, I mean, we were both, we both took pride in our shitposting,
and we both took pride in being able to onboard the most number of plebs and just give them a
good experience. So it really did start as a friendly conversation and then, or rather,
a friendly rivalry. And then I think sometime in in March, I finally reached out to him,
or late February and said, Look, we should, why don't we join forces and actually
do something here? We just don't know how this medium is going to play out. We're,
we're, I mean, this is such a cliche, but we are so early, right? And we the future of content
creation is in front of us. So why don't we just take a leap and do something, just take this shit
posting to audio format. And I think the plebs will appreciate that. And, you know, we'll,
we have humble beginnings, we're still trying to grow, right? So I appreciate you saying that,
you're talking about us here. And then I think you've done it on a couple of other forums,
as if we're some well established, famous show, we're not, right? I think maybe I wasn't
following, but I suspect you might have gotten a larger audience than us in one of your evening
segments. So it's, so we have humble beginnings, we're constantly trying to think about how we,
where we take the show's direction. That said, both of us are, you know, we have family commitments,
we have our fiat mining commitments. So we're doing this just for fun, right? We're not doing
this for the money. We're not, we're perfectly okay, at least financially from, by not making
money from this, right? So this doesn't need to be a career. But that said, we also can't dedicate,
you know, a large amount of time to blockchain radio as a result.
Honestly, I think you guys are bigger than what you're given credit for, man. Like, I'll continue
to say you guys are the shit. Bomb.com, like there's no second best. Like, honestly, what the
fuck? If anybody asked me right now, I'll be like, yo, them the guys, the biggest podcasts in the
world. But for real, though, like, honestly, I, you guys are, like, paving the way. Because I
wouldn't have like, I'm pretty sure me, the Bitcoin lobby, all these different nests wouldn't be on,
if it weren't for you guys, you know, putting your feet through the door, and allowing us to see
through the little crack and be like, holy shit, this is a cool ass place. Like, let's hang out
over here as well. And yeah, I fucking you guys keep doing it with like, you guys started with
the hashtag, then with your show, I wonder what's next. Like, you guys are going to keep leading
this town the rabbit hole and I'm down for the ride. It's an amazing ride. And you guys, you know,
get us there generally. So fuck man. You guys are killing it.
That's, that's again, very kind of you, Sleepy. But
I have one thing to say about you guys. You guys are incredible. You got to admit it. You got to
admit it. You guys are incredible. I will say I do have a life outside of QW. A nostril life outside
of QW as well. We don't do everything together. Oh, man. No, but yeah, go ahead.
I'm sorry. Can I can I selfishly plug something of my own? Yes. Hell yes. Yeah, this is the time.
So one or two of you in the audience might be aware of this, but I am in the process of writing a book
of magic realist fiction about Bitcoin. I've been and the the approach I've taken is, well,
okay, actually, let me rewind. I started writing this around this time last year, right? It was
meant to be a book of 20 plus chapters. I had the full plot figured out, but the details were,
you know, trickier because I had set myself up somewhat challenging topic to write about.
And I hit writer's block sometime late last year. So I was about five or six chapters in. And I
I just wasn't moving. And then about a month ago, I said, you know what, I need to force the issue
here because I do want to write the book. Right. I like the I like the idea that I have. And I want
to take it to its conclusion. So to force myself to do that, I said, I'm going to release one chapter
at a time. My initial view was I'd release it on hubla.news, but I have not been able to get it to
work on. I've tried multiple browsers and so on. So what I've the hybrid approach I've taken is I
have a ghost blog and I post one chapter every week or 10 days to it. And then I immediately
link it and post it on Nostra, then copy the Nostra note ID and paste that in the footnote
of that post on ghost. So it's there. It's a tenuous linkage, but it is a linkage to Nostra.
And in any case, the first post when that talks about the release of each chapter is it happens
on Nostra. So I've done three chapters plus a prologue so far. Chapter four is coming maybe in
two or three days. And I'm planning on doing that. If my speed of writing increases,
then I'll try to move to faster than once a week. But right now, one chapter every
week or 10 days is what I can manage. I've actually been meaning to read some of it.
I know exactly where it's talking about. You're talking about Casa Nostra.
And yes, that's right. That's the name of the blog or the newsletter, if you will. Right. But
that's what I'm posting to. Yeah, this is a yeah, I got I got to like actually dedicate some time
because I've noticed that each chapter actually gets longer. Right. Well, maybe the first three
that could have been the pattern, but it's going to be about the same. You know, it's
in a standard size book format. Maybe we're talking about 12 to 15 pages per chapter.
I think that's going to be the average. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. And I just want to be updated by
the time that chapter four comes out. I want to be already ready for it. So yeah, I'm going to
actually dedicate some time to this after this. Is there any way where this this place where you have
it here, there's there's no way to zap on here, huh? You know what I just noticed? We can highlight
this with Pablo's new tool. How would you feel about that? If you started highlighting certain
like, you know, parts of the of your writing and putting it up on there? I mean,
so I want to preface this by saying the reason I plug this is I want people to read the book,
not because I want to make money off of it. Right. It's a fun exercise for me. And I and I think
the story will resonate with with a lot of folks. Right. It's not just about Bitcoin.
I mean, Bitcoin is a key part of it. But it's really about a young man's journey in coming to
terms with grief and then just through a lot of magical experiences, finding out about and
learning more about Bitcoin while dealing with his grief as well. So that really is the theme here.
I'm writing it because I don't want to explore that subject. It's fun for me to and it's, you
know, it's a it's a I wouldn't even call it a tragic comedy. It's supposed to be generally
lighthearted and in tone. Right. It's like this this young kid who's dealing with this incredibly
difficult situation, but in a really weird way with with bizarre things happening to him with
Bitcoin, you know, a pretty constant theme throughout throughout it. So that and I think that
will resonate with some people if not the Bitcoin part, then the sort of hero's journey, if you will,
to some extent, and some of the non Bitcoin but other crazy things that happen in it. So I just
want people to read it and have fun. I want to have fun writing it. So this is not about the Zaps.
Yeah, no, I didn't. I actually just wanted to see if you were willing to use the tool for something
like this, because I see it as valuable content that could be that potentially I'd want to. But
yeah, no, I completely understand what you mean, Avi. That was just a me, me thinking,
like what I would want to do. Not now. What do you want? You know, I want to know. I get it. I get
it. I wanted to ask you something. What are the numbers mean? All right, I'll give. So I don't
want to give too many spoilers in the story. Right. You talk about the numbers. They talk about the
which numbers they talk about the book or something else? No, no, no, the numbers in the book and they
seem to be like they remind me of like a block sizes or something. Oh, the oh, the chap. Yeah,
those are those block height blocks. Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah. How you time sent it.
That's how I time stamp it. So if you look if you look up those block heights on and it's I've,
I think I'm accurate to within 10 15 minutes, right, plus or minus. But if you look those up
on mempooled or space, you'll get the exact date and time. So all the time, the story set in on the
East Coast, and it's set in this time, it starts around this time 2022. Right. So if you look at
the block heights, it'll correspond to the dates and times in, you know, April, May 2022.
That's really, really interesting. I've, that's so interesting. Yeah, that's it really looked like a
like a block height for a little second, but I didn't want to. Yeah, that's amazing.
So the name of the actual book is 24 the book or just 2424 just 24. Okay.
Yeah. So everyone, if you'd like to go see the book, can I plug it in like the whole link?
Sure. Yeah, the 24 the book and it has all the chapters in it. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. So
Casa, if you if you guys go to Casa slash, wait, how do you say that? Ford, like, how do you say
that slash? I think that goes in the middle. I'm so illiterate when it comes down to like,
dash hyphen. Yeah, whatever you want to call it, dash hyphen, Nostra, Casa, dash Nostra,
the ghost that I owe. And on there, you'll be able to see it. Please go check it out. You're also
able to subscribe with the email guys. So I'm going to do that. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, you know,
that's completely optional. Look, Ghost is for me is a one of the better, better platforms.
But it's also a fiat platform. So to subscribe, you actually have to semi docs yourself or at
least docs are email. So completely optional. That's all good. My email is literally sleepy
ass or sleepy calm. So it's all good. Seriously. All right. Tano, you're also here, man. Do you
have any questions for our fucking guest? I don't know that much about the book. So
I was just learning so much right now. Doesn't have to be about the book, brother. Oh, okay.
As you've been here for quite a bit before your actual speaking time, I'm actually curious what
kind of maybe tips and tricks you might have because your player chain radio is absolutely
amazing. I love it so much. Yeah, again, appreciate you saying that tunnel. We're still
learning and still trying. So I'm glad that even this humble effort in the beginning is resonating.
Well, I look, I don't have any tips and tricks for a 24 hour nest. Right? My tip and trick is
don't do it because you're insane for that. Now, if you're doing thinking about doing a standard
one or two hour nest, the two things I would strongly recommend. The first one is get a good
mic. If you guys haven't already, right? Just invest in a good mic and use a desktop because
the sound just comes in very clean that way, right? Without any catching any background stuff.
And when you listen to the recordings, it sounds a lot better. So that's one. The other is I would
go in with, it depends on whether you're getting a guest or whether you want to riff on just between
the two of you on one topic. But if a little bit of structure is always better than no structure,
so go in with maybe five or six bullet points and then under those bullet points, you know,
you put some related sub bullet points, right? So, you know, it doesn't have to be dogmatic
that you stick to that in the letter, but at least you create guardrails and a little bit of
discipline for yourself to stay on topic and then to know when you need to move topics, right? And
if you have a two hour nest, I would just put some loose timelines, you know, 20 minutes for topic one,
25 minutes for topic two, whatever it is, right? And that way you can have a little bit of discipline
and make sure the show runs a little smoother. These were some absolutely great tips. Sleepy,
you were writing them down, I hope, right? Of course. Yeah, I did. We actually believe it.
But I will say, sorry, real quick, quick comment, right? But that is if you're looking for a structured
type of show, I think the one or two of your frog talks that I've listened in on, I think you won,
you pulled me up on stage even, Sleepy, was I think you seem to take the more open mic approach,
which is great, right? It's like get as many people on and let's have that chorus of voices,
vigorous dissent or vigorous agreement, whatever it is. So it really depends on the style of show
that you walked. I like chaos. I thrive in chaos. So the more people we can have on stage,
the better. Honestly, I don't like being confined to bullet points or to any of that. I'd much rather
go with the flow. I feel like it's going to make for a better, more interesting, more human
conversation at the end of the day. Because I mean, there's different opinions on this. I have
multiple different opinions on this and I just change my mind because at the same time, it is
who you're going to have on. If there's going to be a guest, I definitely should have minimum,
maybe three questions. I don't want to go as far as six. Maybe three questions and then break
those down into even more. But yeah, typically I'm pretty comfortable with
everybody that I've spoken to on here. I'm not afraid to let them know that
I'm not fully prepared and this whole thing is, there's no format for this. It could go
anywhere you want it to go at the end of the day. If we wanted to just stop talking about whatever
we're talking about now and talk about Bitcoin only, we could talk about Bitcoin only. We want
to talk about the corn industry. We could talk about the corn industry. You know what I mean?
This doesn't really have to like, because at the end of the day, we branded ourselves as frog talk
and we take ourselves super lightly. The conversation is supposed to be fun and
it's entertaining in a way, but not super technical where everything that you hear will go
over you. Where you won't actually be able to comment and interact. So I want it to be
super inclusive to everyone that's listening. I don't want it to be something that, I also believe
that other people will do the super technical shows and have the background to do that. I don't.
Tanel doesn't. We could sit here and shitpost all day, you feel me? And make memes and stuff like that.
Tanel, you want to speak? Go ahead, brother. Go ahead.
Yeah. Well, Slippi, we both had this discussion already, I think in a closed room.
We were considering should we have just the frog talk? Should we have a separate, maybe
a bit more formal kind of episode? Maybe one, two hour long one like you and QW do?
So what we came across was that neither of us two are really that tech savvy, which made us
understand that we should really be doubling down on stuff that we excel at instead of trying to be,
I don't know, we're not going to be better than you in that sort of a format. So we have to find
a different format that we excel at. And this chaos, I don't know, I don't know,
this chaos, like inviting everybody randomly to the stage, asking for different kinds of opinions.
It's been a mess. My phone overheating constantly. This is hilarious and funny and degenerate.
And it works for us, but it might not work for other people. So yeah, that's how we ended up on this format.
Yeah. And that makes sense, what both of you said, right? You guys have got to play to your strengths.
If you are more comfortable in that open mic type format, then you should absolutely embrace that.
I think the tip I gave you was what works for me. I mean, it's just the story of my life and my career
that I like hierarchical bulleted lists, like organizing things into that. It just makes my life,
it makes it easier for me. But yeah, I see what you guys are saying.
Yeah, it's, no, but I definitely, it's, yeah, no, I wish I could be, I wish I could be as a,
I wish I could, but I don't know, man. It's hard to like, you know, like teach me how to
how to actually do that. Like, it's hard, man. It's hard. Like, you know what I really love?
I really love like these, these mess that we've done over the past couple hours. I've learned so
much. But I haven't had to like, you know, pretend that I know something that I don't know.
I'm never going to fucking do that. I don't like doing that shit because at the end of the day,
I'm not actually going to pick up whatever you're going to explain to me if I'm doing that. You
know what I mean? Like, so if I don't know something, I'm going to ask a question. Like,
I'm pretty sure you saw that from the very moment, like I got on here, Avi, like I'm,
I'm going to ask questions. I don't care how dumb am I sound. I'm going to ask it.
Because at the end of the day, it's for my benefit. And somebody else might be looking
and somebody else might be listening and, you know, doesn't want to fucking speak up for whatever
reason, but I'll speak up. I don't care. I really love learning. So especially, you know, things
that interest me. All of this interests me because it's, it's, it feels like a revolution, man. It
feels fucking crazy what we're doing here. This is insane. Like this whole thing. Like, I'm pretty
sure you have a lot of thoughts about this. But, you know, I really want to ask you, like,
what do you think about like this, this nature of, um, NOSTER being decentralized, being uncensored,
being, um, untamable, like it's fucking crazy permissionless. You can do whatever the fuck you
want to do at any moment in time. Like, how do you feel about those? Yeah. So I'm going to give a
non-engineer answer to this. And any engineers in the audience are probably going to balk at this,
at the way I'm going to describe this. But one of the first things that struck me about NOSTER,
and this is back in mid December when I joined and I just read up on the spec, is we have an,
so, you know, the concept of relays and clients, we know that, I don't need to explain this.
But I said, the first thing that struck me was there is an opportunity here to re-architect
the entire internet using NOSTER, meaning using NOSTER as the base layer to build all the
applications or a vast majority of the applications that were, that are part of our lives today and
do it the right way. Right. Was it, was someone from, it could have been Mark Andreessen or
someone like that who back, you know, almost 15 or 20 years ago said, uh, words to the effect of
the original sin of the internet was not having a native payment layer to it. Right. So, and what,
what ended up happening is you had this, uh, balkanization and these oligopolies being created,
especially over the last 10 years, right. These walled gardens and platforms that were driven by
advertising revenue, inserting a third, you know, third party into what should be a user and content,
strictly a user and content interaction. Uh, but you do have this third party with, uh, slightly
a different set, potentially misaligned set of incentives, which then feed into the platforms,
incentives, right. Platforms here being Facebook, Google, uh, Amazon, and what have you.
Uh, and it's, it's just become a complete mess and a symptom of, uh, you know, late stage fiat
capitalism in my mind. And with NOSTA, we can just, we have an opportunity. Yes, it's not a base
layer. This is why I said an engineer would bark at it. If I said we can re-architect the internet,
because, you know, you react, if you wanted to do that, you'd have to be at the TCP IP or, or even
lower level. Right. But you know, in a manner of speaking, if you were to use NOSTA, you would
have to use NOSTA as the base layer to build applications like publishing, right. Like we're
seeing with Hublot News, we're like a wave man, uh, for music streaming. Maybe there'll be some
sort of YouTube variant once we can figure out how you could have distributed video over relays.
Right. And I don't know what the answer to that is or something like jam systems, which today is a,
uh, I mean, it's fantastic, right. Uh, we all love Ness, but it's still a centralized service, right.
And Derek's already talked about, uh, you know, and I think he called it, it was a NIP 100. Uh,
but in any event, a new NIP that could potentially allow the, uh, relays to play a part, uh, in, in
the way the audio is stored or, or, or streamed. Right. So all of these applications that we,
we're so used to and we're so trapped in, in their walled gardens or in subscription hell,
uh, with them, there's an opportunity to re-architect them with the native currency.
That's Bitcoin, uh, in, uh, in place. Uh, and I think that's just going to lead to a better place
because we remove advertising or at least advertising as it exists today out of the picture.
And, uh, it, it, in my mind, that'll lead to happier people, more constructive engagements, less, um,
less algorithmic manipulation, right. The way you see on Twitter and even on Facebook for that
matter. So I think it's all good stuff and, and the world's at our fingertips. And this struck me
in mid December, right. And, and what that's as long before, I mean, it's not, it's not social
didn't exist in, on December 15th or December 16th of 2022. Right. And then now you have all those
multiple clients. Uh, and you have, uh, you know, Pablo came in and he started changing the world,
one Nostra client at a time. Right. So I think we've seen remarkable progress in just those
four or five months. And I think the future is very bright. We just need to make sure we get,
you know, more engineers engaged and interested and, and keep zapping the good engineers to
incentivize it.
I couldn't agree more. Um, I had a, I had a little question for you Avi, um, in terms of like,
have you seen, um, that, uh, that push that Jack is, is making for, um, the Nostra native, um,
GitHub? Um, yes. What do you think about that whole thing? And do you, do you think like there's a
better way of doing it than, um, the bounty?
Yeah. I mean, just on the idea itself real quick, right. Uh, so Git itself is, uh, decentralized.
Um, but GitHub, right. The current repository that hosts all of these Gits, which most people use
is now unfortunately owned by Microsoft. And I suspect, uh, Jack's, um, concern stems from that,
right. That the bit, especially, I mean, there's a lot of, uh, code repositories that are on GitHub,
uh, but especially, uh, Bitcoin core. Um, and I think Jack's concern stems from that, that
this is a single point of failure that we've created, uh, for ourselves as a community.
Uh, and I think that's the push behind having, uh, truly decentralized, um, uh, GitHub
alternative. And I haven't looked at the spec too closely. I want it might leverage the concept of
Gits, which are decentralized today anyway. Again, I'm not technical enough to opine on
the specifics of that. Uh, but that said, I did see the comment to your question on the
sleepy, uh, uh, Jack posting or musing publicly if the bounty was the right approach or not.
Um, I mean, there are a couple of ways of, of thinking about this, right? I think, uh,
when I initially saw the bounty, I thought it was a good idea. Uh, but the problem is it is such a,
such a large task, uh, smaller bounties work, right? Smaller bounties for smaller, uh, books of work.
Um, I think those work large bounties for these large potentially world changing tasks. Yeah,
that's, that is a trickier one and you need to mobilize a team of people, um, to do it. And I
mean, maybe in Jack's mind, it was just, you know, do a quick, you know, a quick, you know,
you know, do a quick and dirty proof of concept. And that's what the bounty is for. I wasn't too
specific, uh, in the requirements that he wrote up, but if you, if you want to real systemic
replacement for GitHub, you actually need a whole team. And then it becomes, uh, there's a bit of a
catch 22 here because you will, to get a team, you'll need to create a company that raises capital
that can pay the salaries of these teams. So then you're creating another central point of failure,
right? And it's, it's, you're just perpetuating the cycle in a slightly different way, right?
Your central company building this replacement rather than this being built as a public good.
I have a radical idea about doing this. It's not a sustainable business model for anything else,
right? But so we're dreaming here right now, right? But I, it'd be amazing if someone does this, if
someone sets up a company, maybe it's, it's purely philanthropic, right? It's a, either a nonprofit
or some, some type, yeah, it'll have to be some type of nonprofit company that says, you know,
we have this money. It's basically, I've donated whatever it is, 20 million, a hundred million
dollars, or I've asked through my friends and other like-minded people, we have raised about
a hundred million dollars. No expectation of equity or anything like that. This is just,
these are just grants. And we will now hire a group of developers, product managers,
marketers, UX designers to build public, to build open source, maybe even public domain
tools for the community, right? So it'll have to be this sort of massive philanthropic push to create
this company-like structure that behaves like an agile enterprise-grade product team, product and
engineering team, you know, and follows, you know, healthy best practices for software development
lifecycle, product development lifecycle, UX design, what have you. But because there is no
expectation of profit from the funders, all of this just becomes public domain, right? And the,
you know, the money obviously goes to pay for the salaries of the developers, but the code,
there is no IP, there are no patents. This is all just a public good. So that's one way in which,
I mean, this is, this is fantasy right now, but if someone were to do it,
something as big as a GitHub replacement on Nostra could be built.
That's amazing. That's a really good solution. I love for them to utilize Nest to talk over
those meetings. I would love for them to be here on Nest, to be honest, so it could really be
like open source, like development, like right in front of all of our eyes. And, you know,
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure like if everybody got together right now, if every single
client dev and, you know, UI and UX designer, a talent here and product manager just decided,
you know, what, fuck it, like, let's actually do that. Like, Avi, right now, if you decided,
like, let me make that company, right? And then we let everybody know that at this certain time,
you got to join Nostra NAS and you got to join this NAS because over here is where we're going to be
building. And somebody takes, you know, charge of like moderating the room and delegates tasks,
like according to like whatever the people want to do themselves. Like you let them know, okay,
we have this number of tasks and these are the tasks, which ones do you guys want? And,
you know, you pass them out. I don't know, but I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,
these are the tasks, which ones do you guys want? And, you know, you pass them out. I don't know
how it would work, but like something like that, but it's right in front of everybody's eyes and
people could chime in. Like, you don't know, but like somebody in the audience might have the
question to, you know, I mean, the answer to that question that you have about a solution.
Maybe even in the speakers themselves, like if it's everybody that I'm thinking about,
there's no way that it can get done in a timely manner while everybody's motivated.
Yeah. I think the challenge, so that is a good idea, Sleepy. And I think maybe for smaller
features, something like that would work, right? My concern with that approach is I don't know
how scalable that is or how sustainable it is over long enough period of time, because
enthusiasm could start waning and it's also hard to coordinate in this type of open forum. I mean,
you could do it for a while, but coordinating in an open forum without some semblance of structure,
without some sort of engineering best practices and just a flow of task prioritization and all
of that structure that's part of standard software development. And I think that would have to come
from a slightly more formalized structure. And the problem is the most obvious manifestation of that
is your standard, you know, privately owned company, right? Like, you know, any of these
software giants or even the smaller startups, these are all private companies. They have
shareholders as an expectation of profit and with an expectation of profit, there's an expectation
of protecting intellectual property, putting boundaries around that. So that defeats the
whole purpose and it's against, in my mind, the ethos of what we're trying to do here. So,
which is why I sort of put in this fantasy solution of, to your point, Sleepy, taking that sort of
energy that you're talking about and enthusiasm, but putting it under a slightly more formal
umbrella, but that's not a traditional company. It's a, you know, some type of non-profit type
structure where the people who have contributed have zero expectation of profit. It's an altruistic
philanthropic contribution to build out public goods, which will have, and really it's a long
term investment, right? Because if they truly believe in the power these tools will enable and
the direction in which it's going to take the world, and in my mind, that would be a happier
place, a more abundant place, a more peaceful place, right? If these, the people who are
investing truly believe in that, then, or not investing, putting the money aside, then they
would do that for that long term play. They say, yeah, look, what's $10 million for me right now
to donate here if, you know, 10 or 20 years from now, my children are going to live in a peaceful
world or happier, more abundant world. So we need to have people with that low time preference,
you know, who think generationally to participate in something like this.
I agree. I agree. Bhai, we have five minutes. Do you want to maybe open it up to live Q&A real
quick? We have somebody with their hands up. Yeah, let's do it. We have Bezoski,
Bezoski, I'm hoping I pronounced that right. Yeah, you can speak now.
You have any questions for Avi?
No? Did you raise your hand by mistake? Yeah? Was that the thing? Okay. Putting you back down.
All right. Thank you. If nobody has any questions for Avi, I mean, let me ask them.
You guys do? All right. Perfect. Aaron. What the fuck? Tenno, are you helping me or?
No, I'm not pushing any buttons. Okay. Actually, you're doing it yourself right now.
God damn, because I literally bring him up and like as soon as I bring him up, he goes back down.
I don't know. No, it's too early for that. We'll be doing that later for you. Don't worry.
All right. Whatever. Avi. Fuck, man. Thank you. Honestly. It's fucking been amazing.
If you buy your chance, I don't know what you're about to get into, but you're more than welcome
to stay for however long you want. Well, I'd love to. Sleepy, you guys are doing a fantastic job
here. The reason I chose this time slot is this is the only one that works just given, I mean,
Saturdays and Sundays are family days. So I've got to take my kid for a soccer tournament and there's
a bunch of stuff going on. But I'll try and pop back in later in the afternoon,
if nothing else to see how you guys are surviving about five or six hours from now.
Place your bets. Place your bets. Look, I appreciate what you guys are doing. I think
it's incredible. I hope you've raised good funds for the NES because I'm certainly invested in
NES taking off. So yeah, thank you for this. Thank you for having me on. And look, I've given you
three minutes to have a bio break. Yeah, I think this might be the kindest thing anybody's done
for us in the last couple of hours. Incredible. I should have taken that break to be honest when I
had a chance. But yeah, I actually haven't had a bathroom break in a lot of hours. Holy shit.
I thought I had one. Sure. I fucking love you, Avi. Avi, don't leave until I come back. Give me a second.
Oh my God.
Sattel, I see that it's still recording. I hope it doesn't catch any bathroom sounds.
Sleepy. I'm not going to comment on this one. This is just sound effects. Yeah, feel free to
throw shit emojis in honor of the sleepy taking a toilet break. Yeah, this has been absolutely
crazy. Actually, I'm really curious how big the audio files are. Do you know, Avi?
They should be saved to your desktop.
I think it's on desktop and we are recording every single hour separately. Otherwise,
the files would get way too large. Yeah. Well, also, you'll run into an issue that we've run into a
couple of times, which is if you go over an hour sometimes on Nest, because it's your browser that's
recording it, it could crap out. So that's just something to keep in mind. So it's a good thing
that you're stopping it every hour. So it should be saved on your desktop and you'll just have to
look for them, retrieve it. I don't know how much editing you guys are planning on doing, but
you'll have them. Do you edit yours? Like regarding, like, is there any audio stuff, any
cutting, any stuff you do? We just clip the, if anything needs to be clipped from the beginning
or the end, like, you know, like small sounds just before we launch in. We, you know, because
you're not always sure when you hit the record button, it could be hitting the record button as
someone's finishing their last word. So if there's, you know, some weird noises like that, we just
clip those and then we put them up. I guess it's the difference in your audio setup as all like,
if you have a really good audio setup and everything, all the levels and EQ and everything's
good, then you don't need to really worry about it as much as we do. Yeah. Come back. What do you
guys sound like? Throwing shit at you because you didn't end the recording. Yeah. Because I did what?
You didn't end the recording. Oh no, I didn't. I didn't. Hold up.
All right guys, this is the end of the 13th hour.
Is it? I had number 13. 13, yes. It's 13 hours. Holy fuck. Okay. We're actually keeping tracks though.
Wow. Wow. That's how you know I'm still good. Okay. Say it last. Yeah, man.