Welcome, Kieran, to our eleventh hour of the 24-hour Frog Talk.
How are you, my friend?
Kieran, we can't currently hear you. If you're trying to speak, please refresh your browser.
It's actually been really surprising how little audio we've had so far.
Hey, Kieran, can you hear us?
Not having anything come through.
I'm not hearing anything. Audience, are you hearing him? How is it?
I'm trying to refresh myself.
No, it's Ralph. Ralph just gave us...
Tano, hold up. Ralph just gave us a thumbs down. He can't hear either.
So, Kieran, it's an issue on your side.
By any chance, can you tell me what browser you're using with emojis real quick?
Throw up on 100 if you're using...
Well, first, let's find out if you're on desktop or mobile.
Oh, you have your hand. Okay. Desktop or mobile?
Desktop, put your hand up.
Okay, desktop. Okay.
Are you using a Chrome browser?
You are. Alright, perfect.
So, yeah, just refresh maybe another time and we'll see if that works because he's using the right browser.
Maybe it might be him using Ikeganito.
Maybe he has some cache or permissions settings on or some other apps that might be...
Wait, hold up. Tano, hold up.
Can you hear me now again? Yeah, we can hear you.
Perfect. Perfect.
I didn't have the right input selected on my Mac. Sorry.
No, you're good, brother.
How are you guys doing? You've been going for a while now.
Mad man.
I actually like Sleepy just DM'd me. He can tell me that I'm sleeping.
I just wrote him back like I'm doing the TikTok dances alone in my room just to keep myself awake.
So we're doing good. We're halfway there.
I'm doing absolutely amazing. Nothing to worry about.
Yeah.
So I'm stretched now.
No, I could definitely tell that he was sleepy with his last response. I love it.
Kieran, welcome, man. Very excited to have you on.
We have so many questions to ask you.
But first, we'd like for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey here.
Journey on Nostr, journey on Bitcoin, if you like.
Yeah, we have an audience of 20 people right now.
And I'm positive that 100% of them would love to hear it.
The floor is yours.
Okay. Thanks. Thanks for having me on.
It's currently 10 a.m. here. So I'm just in the middle of drinking coffee.
So you're going to have to give me some warm up time.
No, you're good. You're good. Perfect. Perfect. Cheers. Cheers.
Get the coffee in.
My story is like, yeah, so I've been following, I guess I'll start with Bitcoin because it leads kind of leads straight into Nostr as well.
I've been following Bitcoin, you know, for like a couple of years now, I think around 2013 or 14 or something.
And, you know, kind of doing my fiat slave job and not liking it very much.
And then kind of decided in like 2017 or 2018 that I wanted to kind of try to dedicate more time to Bitcoin or to try to work on Bitcoin, you know, try to progress Bitcoin or improve adoption of Bitcoin.
So I started to like learn about, you know, the internals of Bitcoin and stuff at that time.
Yeah. And then it was it was only in 2020 when I seen a tweet from because I wasn't really like ready to work in Bitcoin.
You know, I wasn't like confident enough to work in like a back end sort of Bitcoin job because I'm a back end dev mainly.
And there was a tweet from Jack Mallers in like 2020 looking for looking for back end devs for strike.
And I was like, oh, great. Like I knew about strike and it was the same kind of technology that was familiar with.
So I was like, oh, cool. I'll apply for this. I ended up working for strike then for like a year and a half until kind of Nostr exploded.
I was just like on my Christmas break and I was like, everyone was talking about Nostr and I'm like, I need to check this Nostr thing out again.
And I was like trying out all the different web clients because they didn't have an iPhone and there wasn't really any Android apps yet.
And I was like, hey, I can I can probably build, you know, like I could probably build something.
You know, I'm not really a front end dev, but I had some experience with React and stuff.
So I was like, I'll give it a try. You know, try to build some something or at least try to build something as like a learning project, even if it goes nowhere.
Because that's usually where like most of my spare time goes. I'm just like building random stuff.
That's it might probably probably goes nowhere. I mean, most of the time it doesn't go anywhere.
Like there's barely any traction with and it's just kind of like learning projects mainly.
That's you know, that's what I'd be doing most of the spirit my spare time anyway.
And yeah, then Nostr kind of exploded. People started tweeting about it.
Jack started tweeting about it. Snowden mentioned it briefly when he was checking out Nostr stuff.
And yeah, it's been a crazy journey since then. It's kind of wild. It's been four months already, really.
This is kind of exploded. Yeah, that's incredible, man.
We actually had one of your front end developers on here not too long ago.
Really? Yeah. Alejandro?
No, hold up. I believe he did. I believe it was.
Did he tell me that he worked on trying to see that I got it right?
Maybe you don't know. Maybe it's Faberice you're thinking of. Yeah, it is.
That's him. Oh, I was like, yeah, I didn't. I don't know his real name.
So you got me right there. Yeah, he worked at Strike as well.
I mean, he still works at Strike and he was like looking at this Nostr stuff as well.
And I was like, yeah, this is kind of cool. And then I showed him like my project and he was like, this is awesome.
I'm going to try to contribute to this. And yeah, he was like grinding so hard on it.
He got burned out. You know, like he doesn't want to look at Snort anymore because he was working so hard on it.
He was like building all of the like every single new NIP that was approved.
He was like, oh, I'm going to implement this. And he like implemented straight away.
Oh, that's amazing. I love how excited you get when you see a new NIP and you just like, holy shit, I got to play with this right now.
Right now, right now, I got to drop everything I'm doing, even if it's like 10 things.
Exactly. Yeah. He would like pick up every single NIP and he'd be like, I'm trying this out. I want to build this. This is so cool.
I love that. I fucking love that, man. He's killing it right now. I fucking love what he's doing with Abla.
It's very interesting. We talked a lot about that as well. And yeah, about Snort, we talked a good amount.
It was the client that really that he really liked because he said that he really thought every other client was really sucky at that time when he first joined.
So that's amazing. And actually, that was my first it was my first desktop experience.
And it's still my my go to. So fucking it's a great job. Honestly, you guys killed it with that.
It was it was actually like a lot easier in the beginning, like because it was like a lot more simple, like, oh, we want to just build like we want to at least get like a certain number of features built.
And it was like so simple. You know, it's just like, oh, we're making great progress. And it's so easy to like to build this client.
And then it's just like things just start to get really complicated, like where we're at now.
It's like way more complicated than it was in the beginning. And it's quite it's a lot slower to like add more features.
It's more of a grind right now, you know, like than it was in the beginning.
And beginning, it was all like excitement and optimism.
And we have to build all this like there's so much more stuff to do.
Like there's always things to improve. And it's like, it's just getting more difficult to maintain, like to add more stuff right now.
But things have like really slowed down in terms of like features that are getting built.
Yeah, this is not stopping every day. Somebody's coming out with with another idea, with another nip.
And I think I also think this this place, this on NOS and that's right here is going to be a great place for client devs to, you know, talk about nips and hash out, you know, disagreements and stuff like that.
While, you know, being able to hear each other on here, you know, your voices is going to help.
It's going to help a ton. It definitely like text isn't going to get us like where voice could get you in the matter of a couple of minutes.
You know what I mean? Yeah.
So I really think like if you guys have I don't know what you guys could call it, but like regular like NOS or NEST where you just hop on and just talk about a whole bunch of cool ideas that you all have and work together on nips like in front of everybody.
That'd be insane because it's like it's completely open source building right there and then.
And everybody could like, you know, listen in.
I love for that to happen, to be honest.
Yeah, I mean, the
it's kind of difficult, you know, like people are all in different time zones and people are interested in different things at different times usually.
So it's kind of hard to get the right momentum of that certain discussion going.
Unless it's like very like everyone is interested in one point and then it's like
everyone's going to be arguing like the thing is like, like nobody can nobody wants to nobody's happy really with with the compromises that were provided.
And I mean, we are having everyone's having open discussions on on GitHub.
But like I said, like I said, it's all text.
Oh, yeah, it's not like hidden discussions or anything.
But no, no, that's that's absolutely true.
Yeah, no, I was just thinking, thinking a lot in terms of like having that speech element for the people that are not very like tech savvy.
But can still come on here and like listen and maybe Google a couple terms and here and there and, you know, be kind of on the same page about the progress that's going on.
And I don't know, it would just be easier for like the devs to like, you know, like let's say you put a message on there and the other person won't see it for like a couple hours.
I don't know. But it would be easier for you to get that feedback right there.
And then when somebody asked you, you know, with words.
But yeah, it was just a just a little idea.
But yeah, with the thing about time zones and the thing about like, you know, being emotionally attached to a certain thing in time as well, like to a certain nip and then somebody else attached to another one.
Emotions do run high.
Like, yeah, I could definitely see issue with being on the same page about the same topic.
I see it a lot right now.
Like, yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Definitely has to be something like like what just happened right now with like Nip 54 and 55, I think it is like something like that could definitely be brought to a nest where devs could hash it out, I guess.
I don't know what you think about that one and specific.
Yeah, I think that that would have been like a good a good time of place to have that discussion.
Sorry, one second.
No problem.
Here, take your time.
But yeah, I think so, too.
Let me see.
I'm actually going to make the post I forgot completely to make that I just made one that would live.
You can repost that.
I got you.
We're on our 11th hour.
Nice.
Exactly.
So after this, we're going to be halfway done.
Right.
Absolutely insane.
In the meanwhile, feel free to donate like this is all of this is done for for semi so and director really have the funds necessary to develop masternest even further.
Hey, I'm back now.
What I was going to say is like, yeah, like that would have been a perfect time to do a nest, I think, because a lot of people were like active at the same time talking about it on the GitHub issues.
You know, there was some progress made, you know, wasn't as as as constructive as they would have liked.
But I'm talking specifically about the 54 or the other one that will raised recently about the image metadata or image optimization.
Like, yeah, I could have been could have maybe solved a lot of the miscommunications by starting a nest or something.
At the time because you know we had like four people, we had like four devs on at the same time, talking on the GitHub issue.
My I definitely agree. I absolutely agree. I also think, yeah, it could be used for every single time that something like this, you know, brings the people together.
Like I remember the deletion spec thing that was going around.
That would have been also a good time for people to voice their opinions about deletion events, deleting events, stuff like that.
Yeah, it's interrupted again. Sorry.
There was one more thing I wanted to say is like a lot of the times like there's there's so many nips proposals that, you know, you can't really keep track of them even.
So it's kind of also hard to to get like devs talking about certain nips because there's a lot of them that I wouldn't really be interested in.
And it's maybe hard to get everyone on the same page or everyone aligned to talk about a certain nip, you know, and it's only later on where like the nip gets approved.
And then some other, you know, some people are like, hey, you shouldn't commit this nip.
And you're like, what is this nip? And like, why is it approved? And stuff. It's kind of.
It's a little bit it's a little bit too much, I think, for individual client devs to keep track of. There's so many nips being proposed and discussed all the time. It's like, it's kind of crazy.
Can you walk us a little bit through the process of approving a nip by any chance?
Well, I mean, I've I've only written like one nip so far, so I don't even like know what the process is, but it's kind of just like.
Yeah, you get like the relevant people or the people are interested to talk on it and to give their feedback like if.
But like I said, it's hard to get devs to initially look at it because they're already so busy with like whatever else they're working on or like it's not interesting at the time with it's not interesting to them at the time.
And it's maybe a little hard to get the right feedback, you know, like the process right now. I wouldn't say it's perfect or anything. It's just kind of.
It's like if anyone, you know, if anyone is not strongly against it, then it kind of just sits there until some clients implement it like you have to have certain certain clients, a certain number of clients have to implement it or to be able to show support for it.
You know, like it won't it probably won't be merged unless some client at least tries to implement it.
So that's kind of one of the requirements is like you've frozen it then if it's like a client then one of the clients has to implement it or two clients have to implement it before it will be approved.
And if it's like a relay specific thing then you know relays have to at least implement it in one of the relays one of the popular relays.
Okay, okay. I see. I see. I see. So it's a yeah, not totally understand by your chance. I'm kind of interested in which you you put out there.
I wrote this in snort we have this, you know, subscriptions thing and the NOS address but it's like integrated into snort.
And to do like the authentication for that I came up with this HTTP authentication by using master events.
So in, in like in normal web API's and stuff or you have this kind of authentication header that you send in the request which has like your, your token or whatever that gives you access to certain parts of the site or certain API calls.
And I wanted to basically, you see I wanted to use you know like the NOS or account as like a login. And I can do that just by making them sign up.
If the user just signs an event and it proves that they own the key.
And, you know, I don't need to create an account I can just basically use this signed event to say like oh hey this is this person, you know, trying to sign up for a subscription or whatever.
So I created this, this request header format in the authentication header that allows you to kind of interact with normal API's but with NOS keys.
So basically you can build something that's like NOS compatible I suppose but like it uses the your NOS account.
So you're providing NOS services but over regular HTTP API's then this is like a way to standardize authentication with those calls.
So if you want to build some kind of services that are NOS for NOS accounts like for NOS for example.
Like instead of posting this proof on your NOS feed and linking it you could basically just click and it will sign an event and it will just prove that and it will send it to NOS.
Well I don't know how NOS actually works for their authentication but this could be another way of doing authentication as well for NOS.
That's amazing because Derek is actually trying to do exactly what you're saying.
So this, if it could work if that's already a nip that's out there and it could actually work for this then yeah that's definitely something Derek is going to want to know about.
It's kind of yeah that's amazing. That's amazing Kieran.
It's also being used by Melvin's NOSDAV. I don't know if you heard about that.
What's it called again?
NOSDAV.
It's basically like a well.
NOS about me?
Oh my bad. It's a little.
NOSDAV. N-O-S-D-A-V.
Oh N-O-S-V-A-V.
You probably have to search for it on GitHub honestly because you won't find anything on Google.
GitHub? Okay.
Yeah NOSDAV. It's an organization called NOSDAV.
But basically DAV is like this, it's kind of like a way to store and modify files but over HTTP calls. It's like a really old web standard called just DAV I think or WebDAV or something.
But this is like an adaption of that.
That's you know set up but for NOSDAV. So basically you can have like a
common file storage system and then you can kind of interact with it
from your NOSDAV account. So you can store files and it would basically authenticate with your key.
And he's implementing this exact same
header that I was talking about, this authentication header. It's exactly the same as the one I proposed in the NIP.
Because I talked to him about it before proposing the NIP or before implementing it for Snort and he was like yeah I'm thinking of doing something similar for this other project that I'm working on.
And we kind of collaborated on that NIP for this kind of scheme.
Yo that's fucking sick. I love that. And what you said right there like it's I love how DAVs on here just collaborate with each other and build off of each other's work.
It just seems very collaborative and seamless to build on here when you have the support of almost everybody on here.
Like every developer is open to making their projects open source and allowing others to fork it or do whatever they might want to do.
That's incredible. I don't know if you want to comment on how much, how the experience has been on here in terms of like collaborative work with other developers.
And your experience overall with that and if it's been much easier than the Fiat world then if it's changed your mind in any ways about where this could go.
Well I'm not sure. I mean it's probably on par or similar to other kind of open source development because I never really done open source development before.
Like every Fiat job that you get it's probably like there's 99 percent chance it's going to be closed source and you're going to be building like something that competes with somebody else.
So it's a very different environment. It's not even comparable to Fiat I would say because like everyone here is just building things in their spare time because they're interested in it.
And they're not really like directly in competition. They're actually all work that someone else builds. It's like it could actually help you as well with your project.
And you know this this all came about this header thing came about because of like I just asked in my telegram chat like does anyone know of this like this already exists because I was like trying to implement something like this and I was like OK well nothing exists.
Maybe we can build something for this and you know everyone else can use it. That's that's the great thing about Nostra as well.
Like if it doesn't exist I mean you can just build it and people can other people can use it or they can they can make use of it or they can improve it even.
And everyone benefits really. Whereas you know in a in a closed source situation I mean you're never going to have that.
It's only it's only open source development where you're going to have kind of collaboration between essentially different companies if you could call them companies you know but different projects.
They're all just working together. It's pretty nice.
Yeah I mentioned that because I heard from another developer that he he's on the Linux newsletter or something like that where a lot of developers are on and that he always sees people arguing on there and being very toxic towards each other instead of being on the same page about certain things.
Yeah not really getting any like he says this is like a brush breath of fresh air when it comes out to open source developing.
It's taking a lot of like the masculine toxicity out of the equation when it comes down to working together and stuff like that.
So, yeah, it's I could I could definitely see where where you were where you're saying with these are definitely like projects that you know feed your soul like in terms of it be true passions of yours.
When you you know when you're building something like this. It tends to be more than it starts off as a hobby and now it's you know turning into you know passion projects and then.
Yeah, I'm really happy to see that you guys are rock stars here you guys are definitely like celebrities.
And that's something I haven't seen in any other social media.
You don't tend to have the know the developers be sort of like like brought up to the spotlight per se and like sort of like at the same level even higher than an influencer would be in terms of their you know recognition and overall like me this around the protocol.
And the social media it's it's incredible you guys totally deserve all the praise you guys get and all the love.
I fucking love it's this is why I'm like this is why this place is so amazing.
Because you guys are getting the recognition you guys deserve.
And I fucking love it man it's it's true value for value all every time there's an update and I'm using it. I zap that post because it is just the way that it's supposed to go you know the way supposed to be you get the way they got set it up to be.
And yeah I fucking love it man.
This is a really cool place.
What made you stay by any chance like this is a question that I have asked before.
And it's basically what brought you to Nostra and what made you stay I didn't actually ask you those questions on together but yeah what actually made you stay.
Yeah what made me stay.
You know I kind of had this idea as well like I've always wanted like ever since I worked in companies.
I've always wanted to do like open source development so this is me like staying true to my my wish and dream to like work on open source because like open source software is the only software that actually matters you know because like all the other software
it's all just like for profit it's all for like just part of the machine you know like companies make make software just to make money.
And open source software is not to make money it's like it's to provide people tools and that's really it's really powerful right like you can you're actually making something that's important, which you can't really you almost never will achieve if you're
just working at a company so this is my trying to stick to it just for that reason.
Oh man. Yeah.
That's fucking incredible. Yeah I totally agree with everything you said about open source. It's definitely the only thing that's that's worth it.
At the end of the day, it's, it's beautiful how it's.
I really like the permissionless part of this whole thing where you can really do whatever you want to do whatever you want to do it.
You can stop doing whatever you were doing to pursue the next, you know, the next myth per se that that comes out and you're really passionate about.
And then make a cool thing and then possibly go back to the to the thing that you were, you know, creating and polish it, you know, better on.
But yeah, there's no, what I like about it so much is that you guys really have no timelines.
Like, most of the time the community completely understands because they're either as excited about the new implementation as you are, or, you know, more like it's, it's incredible.
Yeah, I just want to say that how like how cool it is that it's permissionless so you guys have no timelines here, and you're free to do whatever you'd like.
Yeah, I fucking love that.
Another question that I had for you is, so I actually want to know if you have any new features coming out or anything you want to say, particularly about the client.
Okay, new features.
I've been trying to build like the subscriptions thing for the past few weeks.
It's been pretty much taking up all my time.
But there is some other kind of side quests I guess you could call them related to that work.
I've been trying to build like this you know, zapped paywall feature that a lot of people have been asking for.
So that's maybe coming soon. I don't know if I'll have time to work on it.
Basically, it'll, it's kind of like an extension, well I'm planning it as like an extension to NIP 94. I know it's very controversial NIP but I think it's a really great NIP for this use case, where you could essentially tag, like an image or like a video as like requiring a payment.
And then whenever you fetch the content, like you have to pay it with a 402 response, which is basically like a HTTP response code for payment required and it will give you like an invoice and you pay it and you get access.
Hopefully I can build that soon. That's kind of like my next thing I think that I'm going to try to complete.
Because there's a lot of features in subscriptions and stuff that take a lot of time to build like for the premium tier for subscriptions.
It's a lot of complicated stuff that I don't want to like stare right now.
So I'm happy just to leave the, like the supporter one there and it gives you some basic features but aside from that.
Yeah, I don't I don't know like what's what's gonna come next honestly it's like.
I'm kind of trying to focus on like getting some kind of revenue streams coming in like this is this paywall feature will have like a fee.
Like a fee model so that's like one way of monetizing the services because like I'm running this this void cat thing as well this this file host void cat but it's completely free and it's like unlimited storage and that can't last forever so I need to kind of monetize that as well and that's where this this kind of coming in like I want to build this this
kind of function where it's like connected to Noster and you can do the paywall payment directly on Noster and that service can kind of get some revenue coming in because it's not it's obviously not free to run.
It's costing like like four or $500 a month so I mean in total I mean for all for all the things that I run it's like $500 a month.
So it's very expensive. So I'm trying to I've been kind of just focused on that really for the past month I guess. I haven't really been paying attention to any of the nips or planning to implement any new features but hey if you guys want something.
Please let me know because I tend to just kind of meander between different things until it's it's usually something that I kind of want to implement because there's actually not a lot of people requesting like specific things so it's usually whatever I'm interested at the time that I work on.
That's that's incredibly.
That's insane man like how much it's costing per month. I definitely do think that yeah the paywall is going to help a ton now.
And those subscription models.
Yeah they should like that that file file hosting. I mean, yeah, I don't know if it's just file hosting or just image hosting.
But yeah the hosting should definitely be like a feature of like the subscription model and yeah man.
Devs need to get paid at the end of the day. You guys do a ton and you're not getting. I know you I know like I definitely know this that they're not getting that enough for the work that they're putting in and you know the expenses that they have to take on.
So yeah this is it brings back to the point that this is exactly why we're doing this this 24 hour and asked to bring attention to to this specific problem for semi so specifically to further build this because yeah we all like we're all motivated because you know it's it's cool things that we're doing.
But at the end of the day we need you know we need sats and money to survive. So yeah I completely agree with you man.
I definitely think that the paywalls with the fee is a super powerful monetization tool.
And it's needed for for us creators as well like yeah I definitely benefit from it to be able to use it. I know I know a lot of people would to be honest.
Yeah, I, and I'm honestly I'm like, I have no ideas for new things just because like I'm waiting for other things that are like in the pipelines to like finish getting built and stuff like that. Like what I'm most excited for to be honest is like private DMS like really private
DMS I don't know if that's ever going to happen. I don't, I don't think that's a, I don't think the standard of like the protocol allows that to happen.
Like because I discussed that with somebody and they told me now that's always going to be public information like yeah you're not going to be able to see the messages but you can definitely always see who this and pub speaks to you know what other
and pubs this and pub speaks to basically and the amount of like messages that transpire between them in the conversation. And I don't know I just, I always find that a little weird but whatever it is what it is.
But if there's a nip that makes that more private that makes a tech, because I know nips have their own events and stuff like that, that creates a different event that is a more private event that doesn't allow that to happen.
That's even possible, maybe I'm just talking shit. But if somebody could figure that shit out, it would be super useful, as well as, I think it's a called nip 40. I forgot what it's called.
I'll tell you right now if I can find it.
But the one that's used for Nostra chat.
Nip 42 maybe.
That's a cool nip to implement I think all clients should have a version of this, where you could have like channels.
And in those channels you can have messages that are specific kind that don't get, you know, posted in your profile, and you could actually have messages with a ton of people inside your own little channel.
That's pretty cool. Reminds me of like telegram or something like that.
But yeah, that's all I got. Tanow, if you have any, anything you want to say?
If not, then Kieran.
Yeah, more than anything I'm just really really excited to see what you guys got coming up in the pipeline because I personally like the web clients so so much.
I'm such a big fan of it, especially this, this actual design of it and everything. Yeah.
But at the end of the day, I'm just really really happy to have you on here.
Thanks for having me on.
It's definitely one that I am annoyed about, you know, like, not having private DMS, it's really bothering you know because you know this, Nostra Marketplace and stuff like those proposals rely on this, the same nip for DMS and like, I don't really want to implement the marketplace because I was thinking of implementing
marketplace for snore, but like the DMS are still, they're not private enough.
Because people could start using it and not realize that you know, it's basically public information.
But again about DMS, it's like, there definitely are ways to make it more private it's just like, there's always some kind of trade off like the way the DMS work right now is like, it fits in with how relays work, because relays essentially need to know, like, who you're, who you're messaging or like,
because you have to tag them right if you're sending a DM, you have to tag their pub key and then whenever you're, whenever you want to load your own DMS like the people who are tagging you then you have to say hey give me, give me events which are tagging me.
So like you kind of need to know each party, you know that's the only way that relays can actually give you the information that you want.
You can't say like hey give me, give me the DMS to me but like you don't even know who DM me, it's like it's not possible for the relay to give you that information, you know those events because it won't know who DM you.
But there are other ways of doing it by kind of, you know, wrapping, you know, doing it in layers essentially. That's one way of doing it.
Where you have like, like an encrypted, you know, you create, you create one event and then it's, it has some information in it but it's encrypted.
And then like everything after that will be kind of like anonymized or using different keys or some kind of scheme like that where you're not actually using your real pub key you're using like another key that was generated just for this chat.
And that's, you know, there are many proposals, there are so many that I don't even know, and I'm probably not doing them justice by saying it like that but that's that's how I see that they, they are approaching this issue.
It's like, you have to use a different key essentially, you know, that's the only way to, to gain privacy on DMs. It's like you have to not be yourself.
That's the only option you really have in terms of DM privacy.
Wow, that's pretty crazy. You, and also you just made me think of something.
What, what maybe having a, like, you know, I don't know if you've ever done this but sending a DM to just like one relay and maybe you having that relay.
Would people still be able to like, because if they're not able to connect to that really well. I don't know. Oh, yeah, you can still you can limit people from actually reading a specific really I remember that.
So if you have a private really, and let's say this is the, this is your really and this is the really that you want to use to DM, wherever you want to DM.
Is that, is that a possibility to keep yourself and on on there. If I read from there. There is like that that nip off, you know, nip 40, I think it's 42 no nip 40.
I don't remember which one I think it's 42. To be honest, the, the auth one. Yeah, that's, that's supposed to be like one of the mitigations to this is like the relay won't give you the DMS unless you're, you know, you're really the person that owns the key.
And that's one way of like restricting who can actually fetch those events is like to to prove your, your, your pub you own the pub key.
And then it's like okay well then it can release them but you know that's not really perfect either because relays usually share, you know, or they like, they're not really securely, you know storing these DMS, you know, their relays or operators are sharing them or making backups
So there's other ways for those events to get leaked you know like it's not, it's not guaranteed that those events will never leak, you know, so it's not really super secure it's okay for like maybe just regular DMS you know between people who are not being targeted, essentially.
But, yeah, it's not it's not a perfect solution.
I understand. I understand. I really appreciate that answer.
Are you down to open up the floor to maybe some live q amp a. Yeah, sure.
Awesome. So, audience members if you like, you could press that little hand right there in the bottom.
And we'll bring you right up to the stage, and you can ask a question, if you like.
And we'll give you some time.
Honestly, I don't even know why I decided to do this I feel like shit right now.
But it's all good. We're fucking we're gonna persevere.
Yeah, just don't think that this is only the halfway point, just forget about that.
I posted that I'm having like speaking issues already. This is difficult as well. Much more difficult than I expected.
But so, especially guys, please help us out with any kinds of questions that you might have.
Yes, guys, come on, we need to save our voice. We have 12 more.
I think it's I think it's no it's 13 actually. Sorry, it's 13 more hours. It's 12 slots 13 hours.
13 more hours. Holy moly. I think Tony has a question. Yes, bring Tony up man. Oh my god.
Tony save us.
I think Tony's up next as well. Tony refresh if you can because we I'm not getting anything at least from my side.
You guys got anything? Tano? Not hearing anything myself.
Tony, try to refresh. Yeah, try to refresh brother.
Your browser. Try to refresh your browser brother.
If you can, just refresh it.
Please.
No.
All right, Tony, I know your mic is open, but we cannot hear you.
Can you hear us?
Gives a sign signs of life brother with emojis.
No, I'll bring you down and then I'll bring you back up.
All right, spiral, you're on.
I just wanted to say that I could hear him just a moment ago, but then when I jumped on stage, I couldn't hear him. So I'm not sure what that's about.
Seriously?
Yeah, maybe refresh.
Wait, let me see if you were able to hear Tony.
No, I didn't hear anything.
No. Tony, try again brother.
You want to unmute real quick?
Tano, did you put on spiral down or did he go down by himself?
I didn't put him down. He went down himself.
Okay. Tony, you don't.
Okay.
Tony, feel free to try it out.
If not, we're most likely getting back to you as soon as possible, I guess.
Tony actually has a 6 a.m. slot, so he's pretty sure he does, right?
I think so, yeah.
Yeah, Tony.
Yeah, I think it's Tony and then it's Avi, right?
Roya, I'm sure you have any questions for Kieran.
Roya gets VIP treatment. She gets up here.
No need to put her hand up. She's here.
Uh-oh.
Oh, that's pretty late for her. Let me not do her like that.
All right, Roya, I'm sorry.
Okay, so let me put Tony back down.
Damn, my voice. Holy shit.
Kieran, by any chance, do you want to say anything else that hasn't been mentioned so far?
About the client, about Nostra, about anything you like?
I got nothing, sorry.
You got nothing? It's all good. It's all good. I appreciate you.
Oh, man. This is great. This is great. Not gonna lie, this is great.
This is my weekend now, so I'm trying to switch off as much as possible.
A couple of weeks ago, I was not taking any breaks. I was doing seven days.
Holy shit.
And I was just so overloaded. I couldn't escape Nostra.
Every day, apparently, I was talking in my sleep about Nostra.
Oh, my God.
So I need to make sure that I switch off correctly.
That's insane. I dream. I dream of my timeline sometimes.
I thought that was just me, though. Wow, Kieran.
I was working every day. I was doing something.
I was pushing code every single day for two or three months straight.
I was like, this is crazy. I need to stop.
God damn.
What are your plans for the weekend if you don't mind us asking?
It's kind of rainy and stuff, so I don't know what I'm going to do with my kids.
But yeah, I don't know. We have to clean that every Saturday.
We clean the entire house. So that's what I'm going to do next after this.
Nice. Yeah, we'll see what happens. I don't usually make plans.
I just make things up on the spot and just go with that.
Nice. Yeah.
I think no specific plans anyway.
Nice. That's usually our motto and our format for the Frog Talk.
We usually don't even... we just go with the flow.
Yeah, why not?
No questions written down. No nothing.
And this was like...
Blank mind. Everything.
Literally. Literally.
Well, even like when I... you know, because I'm working full time on Snort, right?
Like I'll bring my kids to school and stuff and I'll do all of that.
And then I'll come back to the house and I'll sit at the computer.
I'm like, OK, what the fuck am I going to do today? I have no idea.
It's like, you know, I'm either in the middle of something else, like, you know, in the middle of building something else,
like the, you know, like I said, I'm working on subscriptions or my mind is completely blank.
So it's like, it's kind of crazy.
Like every day I could just be working on something completely unexpected.
That's amazing, man.
Oh, well, does it even feel like work at this point?
No, not really.
Isn't that beautiful?
It is, yeah.
Some people just like, you know, they go all their lives, they, you know, doing something that they don't really like doing.
So they do it for...
Yeah, most people, right? And they do it for almost the same amount of time, right? It's crazy.
Yeah, it's sad, honestly.
Yeah, society. That's what society wants. They want the worker bees.
Yeah. Yeah, that's...
And the problem stands from, you know, from the very, from the very roots, like the education system is largely to blame, along with, you know, a lot of society.
That's where it all starts.
Yeah.
That's where the worker bee mentality starts.
Exactly. Exactly. That's why, you know, if I'm ever going to have a kid, he's, he or she is definitely not going to public school, my brother.
Yeah.
There's no way.
I wish I could like homeschool my kids, but you know.
Oh, yeah.
Kind of busy.
No, I definitely feel you on that.
But then there was points where I was like, maybe I should just like, not, you know, just do it anyway, you know?
Yeah.
Well, I don't know what it's like in where you're from, but here it's, you know, they are very kind of...
Well, I'm a fella. It's pretty shitty over here.
No, I think here it's not too bad. It's not like, you know, complete brainwashing.
But yeah, of course, there's a lot of...
It's like just a system, right?
Like they have to do things a certain way so that it's efficient to teach like 30 kids all at once.
But yeah, it's not like crazy to the point where, you know, they're basically just bees.
Yeah.
I agree.
Stake, you have a question?
Oh man, I just got rugged.
All right. Cool.
So Stake came up just to like get my feelings, you know, just whatever.
It's all good.
I appreciate you.
But yeah, I agree with you, Kieran.
It's fucking crazy, man.
But yeah, here in Florida, I'm not going to like...
I hope I don't have kids here, to be honest.
I definitely want to...
I think I've listened to...
What's his name?
Magoo way too much.
And I kind of definitely want to like leave the country and just go be sovereign somewhere else that actually values you, right?
Because here there's this...
I don't know, man.
This state right here doesn't like...
It doesn't value you the same way that somewhere else, like another country, will open their hands for you, you know?
And not make things a total bitch.
Like not make everything a hassle.
You know what I mean?
I don't know.
But yeah, definitely.
I don't know.
I'm completely falling in love with Costa Rica.
So that's an obvious option, to be honest.
If I ever want to go.
I was completely amazed with Costa Rica as well.
It's pretty amazing there, honestly.
And I would say that you should definitely have kids or plan to have kids because that's super important.
Oh, yeah.
It's definitely like...
Yeah.
When I think about it, my number one goal is to have a family, for sure.
Above anything else.
I definitely want a healthy family.
But I obviously want to be prepared to take care of them.
You know what I mean?
And I don't think this environment is going to be the best for nourishment.
So yeah, that's where I'm at currently.
Just swing it, honestly.
Just swing it?
Oh, man.
Yeah.
I'm also 25, Kieran.
So would the advice be any different now that you know my age?
I mean, I had my first kid when I was 25.
Oh, shit.
Yeah, just swing it, bro.
It's fine.
I am not ready, Kieran.
No one's ready, okay?
I keep hearing that, god damn it.
Yo, holy shit.
But I'm really not ready.
Like, you know how bad it is that I'm not even slightly ready?
Like, holy shit, 10 out.
Please jump in.
10 out?
Did I lose my phones?
I think another rap overridden my microphone.
I said it's time to start seeking, buddy.
Oh, my god.
You got to prepare yourself and get ready.
Come on, man.
Sir.
You're 25.
Sir.
You're doing me, man.
Sir.
It's time to have fun.
We can't be doing that out here.
Come on.
Back to Pepe's it is.
Back to Pepe's.
Back to the lab, guys.
No, but seriously, yeah, I definitely agree with you, Kieran.
And yeah, I got to be more honest with myself.
I'm never going to be fucking completely ready.
Who the fuck is, you know, like, I'm not a perfectionist.
I know that's not going to happen.
I'm not going to have the house.
I'm not going to have the, you know, the money, the car, you know, all this shit, like prior to.
No, like most of the time, you know, yeah, you do build together and yeah, you'll get like, I know what you mean.
I know what you mean.
I just what I feel like is that Florida is not the place.
That's kind of where I want to like to leave it at.
I'm in the wrong state.
I didn't mean to put you on the spot.
You're good.
Florida is not the place.
It's okay.
You're going to be okay.
You're going to be okay, buddy.
No, I'm not.
All right, Kieran fucking loved having you on, brother.
This is so much fun.
I hope you don't, you know, I hope you keep doing what you're doing, man, because honestly, like we we we fucking love it.
Snort is was my first desktop client and it'll probably be my last.
So keep going.
We'd love to see it.
And I'm going to be going to be interacting with you a lot more because I you like memes and I like memes and you need, you know, a break from time to time.
Now that you tell me that you're working seven days a week nonstop, I'm definitely going to be sending you more memes, man.
You need a break. So I really appreciate you.
Yeah, it's been fun. Thanks for having me on.
And hopefully we can do something similar again.
I mean, people were spending all our time typing messages and maybe it is better that we all just talk, you know, and I haven't really been joining a lot of these mess and stuff.
So, yeah, I don't know.
Maybe you should do more.
Hell, yeah. Hell, yeah.
I've heard about an infamous get together that happened here maybe like in December.
Is that true that you guys were using utilizing not sure.
Ask back then.
December, maybe December, November, maybe Derek mentioned something about the whole crew being here.
I believe it was you will be told.
I'm hanging out and chatting on here. I was not in December. Yeah.
Why did it feel like longer? Yeah.
He's like, here's like, nah, that's a year ago.
That's like crazy.
It's like a faint memory already.
Oh my God. That's, you know, that's so funny.
Austin, me and Austin met maybe a week ago and we both could have sworn it was a month ago.
It's insane. Nostra is really doing something to our to our to that clock that we have inside of us.
It's crazy. Oh my God. My dog just woke up.
But yeah, Kieran, I really, really appreciate you taking the time to hang out with us.
It was lovely. We definitely got to do this again.
We're most likely going to do another frog talk next month because we're psychopaths.
And we love the, you know, the development going on here.
So we want to support it in any way we can.
And if it means losing sleep and hanging out with you guys, then fuck yeah, we'll do it every single time.
Appreciate you, Kieran. We'll talk to you very soon, brother.
Thank you. It was absolutely amazing having you on, Kieran.
Thanks guys. Bye bye. Thank you, Kieran. Peace. Bye. Peace.