WEBVTT

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If you're day one, day two, day three, day four,

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after D -Day, you know, you can't see anything

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good. Everything's black and white. Let us hold

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your hope for you. We've all survived betrayal.

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Let us hold on to hope for you. Hello, everyone.

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Welcome to the Betrayal Recovery Transformation

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Podcast, where we talk about all things betrayal,

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all things recovery, and all things transformation.

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I'm your host, Chris Rocha, here with my fellow

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lover of metaphorical alphabet soup and co -host,

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Jen Howey. Hi, Jen. I just looked at the script.

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Okay, folks, many of you know that we have a

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script of some sort. It says wing woman. Huh?

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I changed it up. Yeah, you're keeping me on my

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toes, girl. Yeah. Metaphorical alphabet soup.

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Because we love, we love a podcast guest with

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some letters after her name. And our guest today

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has some letters. Yes, she does. Highly certified.

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Yeah. You want to introduce our guest, Jen? Yeah.

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So Stacey, Stacey Smith is somebody that I met

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this year at the Sexual Integrity Leadership

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Summit. And Chris, you met her in a different

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way, and you can share about that. But our guest

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is Stacey Smith, and she's the Chief Clinical

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Officer and Clinical Therapist at Daring Ventures.

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With a personal recovery journey from betrayal

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and stinking thinking, Stacey uses her lived

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experiences and professional expertise to guide

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betrayal partners and those suffering from addiction

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toward healing. She's a certified EMDR therapy.

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She is certified in EMDR therapy and specializes

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in helping people overcome attachment wounds

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and shame. Stacey is passionate about creating

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a healing partnership with her clients and believes

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in the transformative power of therapy. Oh my

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goodness, Stacey, welcome to the podcast. Thank

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you so much. It's just a great pleasure to be

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here with you, the wonderful ladies. Thank you.

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We're so tickled. We've been looking forward

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to this day because you are a savvy, savvy. therapist

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and businesswoman and trainer, APSATS trainer

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and all of those things, but you are also a barrel

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of monkeys. You are a lot of fun and we just

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love your joy. So Stacey, introduce yourself

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to our audience a little bit. Let's learn a little

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bit about you. I am Chief Clinical Officer for

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Daring Ventures. I run a team of counselors.

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I also have a betrayal retreat returning to you.

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I'm the program director for that through Daring

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Ventures, which is fabulous. Let's women come

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for a week and have a spa -like experience with

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some great trauma therapy and some great group

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experience. And just am loving that. I'm recently

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married a little over a year ago and just loving

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the redemption that comes from that relationship.

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It's just a joy. My life is in a really good

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place right now. I can tell from your Facebook

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pictures and you've got little grandbabies and

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you're off on adventures traveling and yeah,

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congratulations on your marriage. We're living

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life and that's why I am so happy to be talking

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about the subject we're talking about today.

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Beautiful. I'm so excited to learn from you today

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about post -traumatic growth or post -betrayal

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growth. So looking forward to this conversation.

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Me too. I think a lot of us haven't even heard

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of that. Many of us that even started in this

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process understood that somewhere inside of us,

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we wanted this to be a thing. Turns out it really

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is a thing. And here we are going to talk about

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that. So Stacey, share with us, what is post

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-traumatic growth? And really, where does it

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start? Well, It starts when you realize that

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there's got to be life after what's happened

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to you in betrayal. And I was thinking, Chris,

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when you introduced your title, the word transformation

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is in it. And that's what we're talking about

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is the transformation that happens. And people

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might say, oh my gosh, betrayal? What do you

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mean transformation? It really is an opportunity

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to become a different person. and to transform

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what harmed you and what hurt you into something

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that's good for you. And, you know, I don't ever

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tell a client that on day one when they're coming

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into my office and they're falling apart. Oh,

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this is going to be great for you because that

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would kick me out, right? But what we do know

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is we know the secret. We do know that good things

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can happen as a result of the work you do and

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the experience of betrayal. And so it's a new

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normal. It is learning that life goes on after

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betrayal because betrayal blinds us so much that

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sometimes we don't think there is life after

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betrayal. And it's about starting to build your

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confidence little bit by little bit, little bit,

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one thing at a time. And, you know, for me, it

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was fixing things around the house. It was just

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starting with something small. and saying you

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know oh I can do this and funny thing I went

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to my hairdresser this morning and she just lost

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her husband from cancer and she's in her 50s

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and I said how you doing and she said you know

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she said I am doing some things that I didn't

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know she told me one story about how you know

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she had a water leak and her husband did so much

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around the house she didn't know what to do she

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goes I figured out how to turn off the water

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And at first, I went to panic and thought, I

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can't do anything. I can't do anything. And then

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she realized, she got the water turned off, and

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then she called people for help. And they helped

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her financially, and three men showed up and

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said, we'll do whatever it takes to help you.

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So she learned how to take care of herself and

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that she could survive something like that and

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that she could ask for help and receive help.

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And another example that she gave me, I said,

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I'm going to talk about that today on the podcast

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that I'm on, because it's the same sort of a

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thing. It's coming back from what you think has

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been taken from you. Like you just can't take

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another step. And that's what it feels like when

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you're in the middle of betrayal. But she also

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said that she had to go get an oil change. And

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I happen to know she's scared of driving, but

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she also was going to go to the car dealership

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that her husband worked. And she was like, I

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am avoiding this and avoiding this for so many

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thousands of reasons. And she got there. She

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got the oil change and she bawled and she was

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miserable. And it was, you know, she thought

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he should be here and she's feeling all the feels.

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And her mother told her when she got home, you

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did it. And she was like, no, I was a wreck and

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I was miserable. And she said, but you did it.

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And she said after a few days, she realized,

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you know what? I did do that. And that was a

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big deal. And so in the beginning, it's really

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little things. It's really little things. Also,

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traveling was one thing for me. I had never traveled

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by myself with kids or without kids. And so it

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was like, oh, maybe I can go here, which was

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a little bit of excitement, adventure. Like,

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oh, you know, life can be different now. And

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so it's always little scary things. But, you

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know, for my daughter, we took a trip to a little

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amusement park where my son, my son was in school.

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And I said, we can go here. I don't have to ask

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anybody else for permission. Now, some people

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don't end up single like I did in my story, but

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still discovering a whole new way of building

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confidence in yourself. You can do that when

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you're married, too. Yes. And sometimes it's

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just making a choice. Making a choice that you

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can have choices because betrayal sometimes makes

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you feel helpless and powerless like you have

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no choices. So sometimes it's just one little

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choice at a time. I think sometimes we forget

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that we even have choices. Absolutely. Because

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it feels like everything's been ripped away.

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All your aces that you had in your hand, they've

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been ripped away. And now you're left with this

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crappy hand of cards that... that I can't play

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any of these. And the reality is we do have choices.

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There are little things that we can do to, even

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while staying in the marriage or staying in the

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home or while we're trying to decide what to

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do, there are these little tiny things when we

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identify our needs and speak those needs and

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then start to draw boundaries around those needs,

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you know, that help us really start to activate

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that part of us that's like, oh, okay, I'm not

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powerless here. There's something I can do. We

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might not like the choices we have. That's the

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problem. Some people go, there is no choice.

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And it's like, yeah, there is. You just don't

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like the choice you have to make. Like, maybe

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I have to go back to work. Yeah. Or I choose

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not have to, but choose to go back to work if

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I want to live in a certain lifestyle or if I

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want to be self -sufficient, even if I am staying

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in my marriage. But we don't like the choices,

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so we don't feel like we have any choices. And

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also, there's that part about breaking routine.

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You know, when we get into that comfortable,

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like, this is how my husband and I did it. And

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this was how we spent our weeknights. And this

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is what we did on the weekend. And, you know,

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that was protected space. But there's that routine.

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And so having the landscape napalmed by betrayal.

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And then having to create a space for safety.

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I remember in the beginning stage for me, my

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therapist said, what are your hobbies? And I

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was like, I don't have hobbies. Being a mom,

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that's what I always have done. Being married

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is my hobby. Right. Yeah. And I found out that

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I had so buried myself into my husband's identity

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or the roles that I had under the roof of my

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home that I hadn't invested. or investigated

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who I was or what I wanted to do. So even those

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little micro things of like, I think I'm going

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to take a watercolor class. Or I think, I've

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always said I can't garden, but what if I can?

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Maybe I'll try that. So having those little micro

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choices or those little, like I love what you

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said about, you know, oh, just going to the airport

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and traveling alone or being able to say, I can

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do this. I'm making the choice to do this. You

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know what? Guess what, ladies? We can do that

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even if we're married. That's right. We can go

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travel alone. We can make these choices as well.

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You know, one of the things that you talk about,

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Stacey, I've heard you mention is grit. So talk

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to us about how to develop grit. What is it,

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first of all, and how does it help us recover

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or get through this post -betrayal situation

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into a growth state? Right. The definition for

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grit that I like is unyielding courage in the

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face of hardship. So it doesn't say... don't

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do it scared it says just have the courage to

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do it you know and in the face of something difficult

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so I use an acrostic that I I wrote a book on

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single parenting it's called understanding and

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loving your child as a single parent and co -authored

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it co -authored it with Steve Arterburn and I

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use an acrostic in there called empower and so

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Grit comes from these elements in my mind. Embracing

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change. We're doing this personality assessment

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thing for a team building here at Daring Ventures

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and I found out that I'm a nurturer and I don't

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like change. And I'm like, wait a minute, I thought

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I did. But maybe that's why it was so hard in

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my journey to embrace change. Like you said,

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the habits, you said it so well, Chris, we are

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so used to routine and habits. This is the way

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we've done things. This is the way for so long.

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And by the way, women cry when I ask them that

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question, what are your hobbies? They're like,

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or who do you have to talk to? Like who's in

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your support system when there's nothing there?

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So back to that, but embracing change. and saying,

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you know, I'm going to yield to the process.

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Acceptance is yielding to the process, even if

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we don't like it. Acceptance doesn't necessarily

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mean approval, but life can be different than

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you think it could be. So the next one in empower

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is movement. Dr. Jake Porter always says we're

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never stuck. We're always moving in one direction

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or the other. So doing the next right thing,

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is it detrimental to me or is it positive? We're

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really never stuck. We're always going one way

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or another. So just taking the next step, doing

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the next right thing, breaking it down, because

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sometimes it can be overwhelming. How am I ever

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going to trust this man again? How am I ever

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going to have sex with him again? embrace it

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one little bitty thing at a time. Let's talk

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about maybe, you know, being in the same room

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with him, you know, just one little bit at a

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time. The next one is the P and it's thinking

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in a more positive direction. You know, ask yourself,

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am I a positive thinker or do I come from a victim

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mindset? We have been victimized by betrayal,

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but we don't have to stay in that mindset. If

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you find yourself saying things like, I can't,

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it's not my fault, I can't do it, it's someone

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else's responsibility, I can't do it, the opposite

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is I can. I can make choices. I can take responsibility.

00:14:01.190 --> 00:14:06.330
I can choose this. I can choose that. The next

00:14:06.330 --> 00:14:10.029
one is own your life. The O is own your life.

00:14:10.539 --> 00:14:14.080
So, this is so funny. In the middle of my betrayal,

00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:18.460
I always tell this story. I was driving down

00:14:18.460 --> 00:14:21.019
the street one day, and you know those road signs

00:14:21.019 --> 00:14:24.399
that they can program with lights to say whatever

00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.399
is next that's very specific, right? I swear

00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.100
to y 'all, it said, this is your light. Wow.

00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.299
This is your light. Because I kept saying, but

00:14:35.299 --> 00:14:39.519
God, him. But God, him. He, if he would just,

00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:43.899
okay, he, he, he, he, he. And God put literally

00:14:43.899 --> 00:14:47.259
a road sign saying, this is your life. And I

00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:53.659
was like, I have chills. Gosh, okay. And I realized

00:14:53.659 --> 00:14:58.539
that I was not, when I got to heaven, I wasn't

00:14:58.539 --> 00:15:00.980
going to have a t -shirt on that said, I'm with

00:15:00.980 --> 00:15:04.220
stupid. Like, this was my life. This is what

00:15:04.220 --> 00:15:06.899
I had to answer for, which meant. My speech,

00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:11.259
my attitude, my choices, it involved so much.

00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:15.899
Yeah. Can I just pop in there? Own your life.

00:15:15.940 --> 00:15:20.159
I remember talking with a coworker. I have two

00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:23.919
daughters and they were in high school and there

00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:27.279
was something so stressful going on in their

00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:31.519
lives. And Mama Bear came out in me. And I later

00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.340
have learned that I just I want to fix it. I

00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:36.820
need everybody else to be happy so that I can

00:15:36.820 --> 00:15:39.320
be happy. If they're not at peace, then I'm not

00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.500
at peace. And I need to get all my ducks in a

00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:45.559
row, all the little ducklings, right? And yeah,

00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:48.080
otherwise, yeah, it is a boundary issue. I've

00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.960
learned. I've learned since then. But I remember

00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:53.580
my coworkers, I was discussing this situation

00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:56.059
with my daughters and like they weren't in any

00:15:56.059 --> 00:15:57.600
trouble. I was just wanting to help them out

00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.879
of a difficult situation. She said, you can't

00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.019
change their reality. Essentially, this is their

00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:06.820
life. These are the cards they've been dealt

00:16:06.820 --> 00:16:09.120
and you've got to just support them while they

00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.580
learn how to figure that out. And I took that

00:16:12.580 --> 00:16:15.480
into my own heart, in my own mind, and just thought,

00:16:15.580 --> 00:16:18.620
gosh, this is my reality. So I can't change it.

00:16:18.620 --> 00:16:20.299
I can't wish it away. No one's going to fix it

00:16:20.299 --> 00:16:24.580
for me. So what do I need to do? I love the conciseness

00:16:24.580 --> 00:16:27.299
of that statement, own your life. Basically,

00:16:27.299 --> 00:16:31.200
own your reality. Stop putting energy into wishing

00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.340
it was the way it used to be or wishing I had

00:16:34.340 --> 00:16:37.899
what so -and -so had. Instead, this is it. So

00:16:37.899 --> 00:16:39.700
what are you going to do about it? What are you

00:16:39.700 --> 00:16:42.559
going to do within it? It is so hard. So scary.

00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:47.460
I can't tell you how many times I've sat in that

00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:49.759
corner of my couch and said it wasn't supposed

00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:52.779
to be this way. It was not supposed to be this

00:16:52.779 --> 00:16:56.639
way. And talking to God about that, God's like,

00:16:56.740 --> 00:16:59.080
you're right. This is not, this was not my best

00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:04.000
for you. And here we are. And here we are. We

00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:06.339
are still here in this position. So what are

00:17:06.339 --> 00:17:08.529
we going to do next? But I also know that for

00:17:08.529 --> 00:17:13.390
me, while cognitively I understood that my marriage

00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:16.910
was not my life, there was still this element

00:17:16.910 --> 00:17:21.230
of feeling like the status of my marriage, being

00:17:21.230 --> 00:17:26.730
in limbo, was occupying my life. It was occupying

00:17:26.730 --> 00:17:29.849
my thoughts. It was occupying my next step. It

00:17:29.849 --> 00:17:33.069
was occupying the way I behaved, the way... I

00:17:33.069 --> 00:17:36.069
engaged in all of my relationships as I was waiting

00:17:36.069 --> 00:17:39.650
in this perpetual, how will this turn out? That

00:17:39.650 --> 00:17:44.670
also is not living, you know? And so it's really

00:17:44.670 --> 00:17:49.410
difficult to really conceptualize this concept

00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:52.930
of what is our life? And it's exactly what you

00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:55.150
just said, Stacey. It's what are you going to

00:17:55.150 --> 00:17:57.190
do now? What are you going to do today? What

00:17:57.190 --> 00:18:00.230
step are you willing to take? To move towards

00:18:00.230 --> 00:18:03.069
something. Chris, I love that you, I think you

00:18:03.069 --> 00:18:05.789
said, I wrote it down. I buried myself in the

00:18:05.789 --> 00:18:08.670
roles I played under my roof. What other roles

00:18:08.670 --> 00:18:12.509
are there in my life? There's more to me than

00:18:12.509 --> 00:18:15.049
this marriage, you know? And I think you have

00:18:15.049 --> 00:18:18.509
to go through a lot of grief to get to the place

00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:22.670
of letting it go and accepting the new normal.

00:18:23.210 --> 00:18:26.390
And I did. I had to because I couldn't define

00:18:26.390 --> 00:18:31.589
myself that way anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So just

00:18:31.589 --> 00:18:35.009
to get us back on track, we've got empower, embrace

00:18:35.009 --> 00:18:38.630
change, movement, positive mentality or mindset,

00:18:38.910 --> 00:18:41.869
own your life. And then Stacey, what's the W?

00:18:42.049 --> 00:18:47.289
The W is welcome power. Yes, please. How scary

00:18:47.289 --> 00:18:49.730
is that? I mean, sometimes it's scary, but it's

00:18:49.730 --> 00:18:52.690
the power to choose what I want. And that can

00:18:52.690 --> 00:18:57.329
be scary. You know, a lot of people. Not every

00:18:57.329 --> 00:19:00.809
betrayed partner has a dysfunctional family of

00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:04.930
origin, but sometimes I run into partners who

00:19:04.930 --> 00:19:09.089
don't know how to make decisions or have power.

00:19:09.170 --> 00:19:14.630
It scares them because two things. One, they

00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:17.609
were given too much responsibility as a child.

00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:22.299
and they were responsible for things that they

00:19:22.299 --> 00:19:24.380
should never have been and felt very incapable

00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:28.480
as a result. So, like, I remember one client

00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:30.619
sticks out in my mind. She was seven years old

00:19:30.619 --> 00:19:32.579
and was in charge of her four -year -old brother,

00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:34.400
and he ran out into the street, and she got in

00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:37.400
trouble because he almost got hit by a car. I

00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.059
mean, imagine the powerless helplessness. And

00:19:40.059 --> 00:19:42.819
so that kind of person isn't going to welcome

00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:46.180
power because power is scary to them, right?

00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:51.079
The other people are people that have been betrayed

00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.740
partners or their parents helicopter parented

00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:58.319
them. And so they never knew how to come into

00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.880
their own because they never had to make a decision

00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.599
for themselves. So it's really scary. They don't

00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:05.420
know how to trust themselves. They're inside

00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:09.980
gut and to like fail and it'd be okay. So some

00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:13.299
people are really scared of power and it's just

00:20:13.299 --> 00:20:16.200
a foreign, foreign object. But I help them start

00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.859
small. start small in those kinds of things.

00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:21.720
Stacey, as your clinician as well, a therapist,

00:20:21.859 --> 00:20:25.880
right? So do you find that it, I've always thought

00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:28.059
that that inner voice, that gut that we have,

00:20:28.099 --> 00:20:30.380
that feeling that, you know, again, inner voice

00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:35.420
is something that we're born with. I've never

00:20:35.420 --> 00:20:37.960
thought about the development of that. As a therapist,

00:20:37.980 --> 00:20:41.279
do you find that family of origin situations

00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:45.319
or traumas or whatever will impede? The development

00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:49.240
of that? Okay. All the time. I was working with

00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.019
a lady yesterday, and she said to me, my mom

00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:55.279
used to say, I'm the only one you can trust.

00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:58.859
And she said, well, what I'm figuring out now

00:20:58.859 --> 00:21:02.819
is she's the only one I can't trust. Not the

00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:05.200
only one, but she says, I can't trust my mom.

00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.640
So she's saying one thing, yet my sense says

00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:09.460
something else. And the truth is, I really could

00:21:09.460 --> 00:21:11.500
trust my dad. He was my protector. He was my

00:21:11.500 --> 00:21:15.299
safe person. How do I trust my sense of self

00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:18.380
when mom says this over and over and over and

00:21:18.380 --> 00:21:22.539
over again? So again, it's eroded her sense of

00:21:22.539 --> 00:21:25.940
self and belief in herself and her voice. And

00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:35.599
we may not realize that. When I was 19, my boyfriend

00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:37.839
at the time had come home from the military and

00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.680
I was getting my nails done. We were going to

00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:42.720
go on a date. It was New Year's Eve. And this

00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:44.460
is back in the day when there were no cell phones,

00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.880
there's no texting or anything like that. And

00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:50.559
I get a phone call at the nail place. And everyone's

00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.059
looking around like what kind of client gets

00:21:52.059 --> 00:21:54.380
a phone call, you know, at these nail places.

00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:56.880
And so they hand the phone to me and my mom proceeds

00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.299
to tell me that he was going to propose to me.

00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:04.240
And she wanted me to know this in advance because

00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:11.500
she was afraid that I would say no. Oh. And so

00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:14.460
I knew that whole night, you know, just kind

00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:16.119
of going through the process of watching him

00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:17.700
be all nervous and all that. It was kind of fun.

00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:20.400
It wasn't until years later, really until my

00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:23.079
recovery and my second marriage, that I really

00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:26.779
realized the impact that my mom had had on my

00:22:26.779 --> 00:22:30.079
life in teaching me not to trust my gut. That

00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:32.279
was one example. Like, I wouldn't have told you

00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:34.980
that I didn't trust my gut. People always told

00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:37.700
me I had great instincts. But what I grew up

00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:40.900
with and didn't know until therapy. was how much

00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:46.279
my mom had influenced and had essentially passively

00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:49.559
told me that I don't have the ability to make

00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:53.140
good decisions on my own or to make best decisions

00:22:53.140 --> 00:22:56.779
on my own. So therefore, I must listen to her

00:22:56.779 --> 00:23:00.180
or others. And so for so long of my life, and

00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:01.779
Chris, you know this about me because we've been

00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:05.859
friends for a very long time, I need a committee

00:23:05.859 --> 00:23:09.759
to make a decision. Almost always. And I hate

00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:13.799
that about myself because I'm intelligent. But

00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:16.240
at the same time, when it's been so embedded

00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.640
in you, so if you're a woman listening to this

00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:21.799
podcast, if you're a man listening to this podcast,

00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:24.259
welcome. But if you're anyone listening to this

00:23:24.259 --> 00:23:28.200
podcast, if you find yourself continually going

00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:31.619
to others to help you make a decision, that's

00:23:31.619 --> 00:23:35.920
a great opportunity to hit pause and really consider.

00:23:36.670 --> 00:23:40.089
your family of origin? And are you acting in

00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:43.630
an empowered way when you are continually needing

00:23:43.630 --> 00:23:46.829
an audience to help you make a decision, even

00:23:46.829 --> 00:23:49.930
if it's good, trusted people? The Lord has gifted

00:23:49.930 --> 00:23:52.809
you with his Holy Spirit if you are a believer.

00:23:52.970 --> 00:23:54.670
And if you're not a believer, hey, let's talk

00:23:54.670 --> 00:23:59.130
about that. But we do have the ability to make

00:23:59.130 --> 00:24:00.769
these decisions for ourselves. And sometimes

00:24:00.769 --> 00:24:03.730
we need to grow into it when it hasn't been nurtured.

00:24:03.789 --> 00:24:07.980
Yes, so true. So true. Yeah. Thank you for sharing,

00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.259
Jen. Okay. Welcome, Power. What's the E? E is

00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:15.220
elect a choice. Make a choice. Just make one.

00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.240
Just make it happen. So we're resolving to choose

00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.700
something. And maybe it's a small thing. But

00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:27.259
some people, choices are scary and hard. And

00:24:27.259 --> 00:24:31.079
so we fear failure. A lot of times we fear failure.

00:24:32.589 --> 00:24:35.369
And making choices means you might make a wrong

00:24:35.369 --> 00:24:38.829
choice, but it's empowering to make choices even

00:24:38.829 --> 00:24:41.650
if they are wrong because you will recover from

00:24:41.650 --> 00:24:46.950
them. And the last one is R, I already said it,

00:24:46.950 --> 00:24:49.789
resolve to choose. So just resolving to do that.

00:24:49.890 --> 00:24:55.890
And again, I have a picture that my clients have

00:24:55.890 --> 00:24:58.609
given me is on my walls and they are so meaningful.

00:24:58.670 --> 00:25:04.130
And this lady many years ago, I was very depressed,

00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:07.450
and I asked her. I was a practicum student. I

00:25:07.450 --> 00:25:10.309
wasn't even an intern yet. And I was counseling

00:25:10.309 --> 00:25:14.190
as part of my schooling. And I said, who were

00:25:14.190 --> 00:25:16.069
you before someone took it away from you? And

00:25:16.069 --> 00:25:18.289
she said, oh, I liked art. And I said, okay,

00:25:18.390 --> 00:25:20.910
well, I want you to start getting back, you know,

00:25:20.910 --> 00:25:23.250
again, what's your hobby? You know, and she got

00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:26.809
back to painting. But she said to me before that,

00:25:26.890 --> 00:25:29.609
she said, I can't afford to paint. She said,

00:25:29.630 --> 00:25:33.430
canvases are expensive. I don't have any space

00:25:33.430 --> 00:25:35.569
for it. She was finding all the reasons she couldn't,

00:25:35.569 --> 00:25:38.670
kind of some victim thinking. And I said, I want

00:25:38.670 --> 00:25:43.549
you to paint over all your old canvases and just

00:25:43.549 --> 00:25:46.230
put it up in your kitchen, find a way. And she

00:25:46.230 --> 00:25:49.589
did. And so she gave me this beautiful piece

00:25:49.589 --> 00:25:51.470
of art that's sort of looking at it right now.

00:25:51.490 --> 00:25:55.109
It looks like stripes of green and yellow, kind

00:25:55.109 --> 00:25:58.900
of a sunset, sunrise kind of picture. And so

00:25:58.900 --> 00:26:00.720
I said, this is going to be the first thing for

00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:02.920
my counseling office when I get it. And so I

00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:06.680
went and I put it in my window at my office,

00:26:06.859 --> 00:26:12.380
my first office. And all of a sudden, Jesus came

00:26:12.380 --> 00:26:16.519
through. There was a picture of Jesus behind.

00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:20.660
Wow. And I was like, what in the world? I called

00:26:20.660 --> 00:26:22.880
her and I said, what in the world is this? How

00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:24.539
did you do this? And she said, what are you talking

00:26:24.539 --> 00:26:27.700
about? And I said, there's Jesus in my picture.

00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:30.680
And she said, what do you mean? And she goes,

00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:33.839
oh, I painted over an old picture of Jesus that

00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.200
I didn't like. So when a client is struggling

00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:43.089
with. Fear of failure and making choices because

00:26:43.089 --> 00:26:45.049
they're scared they're going to mess up. I go

00:26:45.049 --> 00:26:47.829
and I get that off the wall and I hold it up

00:26:47.829 --> 00:26:50.569
and they gasp because it's like finding Jesus

00:26:50.569 --> 00:26:52.470
in your toast. You know, there's people that,

00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:55.210
you know, it's a shrine or whatever. Potato chips.

00:26:55.309 --> 00:26:59.630
Yes. Yeah, exactly. And. And I say, you know,

00:26:59.630 --> 00:27:02.819
I talk about that verse that says. We're like

00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:07.359
fragile clay jars. And when we're flawed and

00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:10.460
fragile, Jesus can shine through. But when we're

00:27:10.460 --> 00:27:13.779
like a terracotta pot and we got this and we

00:27:13.779 --> 00:27:17.819
can do okay, he doesn't get the chance to shine

00:27:17.819 --> 00:27:20.420
through us. But it is such a risk and it is so

00:27:20.420 --> 00:27:24.099
scary. So that's for all my perfectionists and

00:27:24.099 --> 00:27:26.359
all the perfectionist listeners out there. You've

00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:28.880
got to send us a picture of that painting, if

00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:31.160
you would. And I will either use it in the social

00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.220
media or find a way to link it in the show notes.

00:27:33.259 --> 00:27:35.099
But I would love to see that. You too, Jen, right?

00:27:35.259 --> 00:27:39.660
Yeah, absolutely. That's a great story. Stacey,

00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:42.880
so as we're looking at this acronym, what are

00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.559
some of the shifts that can happen in betrayal

00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:47.839
trauma that can lead us to some of that post

00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:52.660
-traumatic growth? Well. priority shift. Like

00:27:52.660 --> 00:27:55.900
we were saying earlier, you know, I focused so

00:27:55.900 --> 00:27:59.920
much on my kids and who they were, my marriage.

00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.599
All of a sudden, it's like, you know, maybe I

00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.160
don't need to be on the PTA team. You know, a

00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:09.579
lot of people come in, they're just, they don't

00:28:09.579 --> 00:28:11.119
have time for therapy, they don't have time to

00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:14.440
do this. They're traumatized, completely traumatized,

00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:16.799
and they're trying to hang on to all the offices

00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.039
they hold and all the things they say yes to,

00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:21.720
and I have to tell them, hold up. What would

00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:24.700
happen if you just said no to being PTA president

00:28:24.700 --> 00:28:29.680
or whatever it is? But maybe what is most important

00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:34.079
is spending time with kids. So they start to

00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.180
see that these habits or things they've been

00:28:38.180 --> 00:28:41.700
used to may not be what serves them well, and

00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:44.930
that's okay. So I'm going to shift from being

00:28:44.930 --> 00:28:47.589
a volunteer at school to spending more time with

00:28:47.589 --> 00:28:52.809
kids. Sometimes we reevaluate our goals. What

00:28:52.809 --> 00:28:56.329
is it I want in life? Maybe I haven't thought

00:28:56.329 --> 00:28:59.589
about who I truly want to be in life. We do a

00:28:59.589 --> 00:29:02.289
lot of work on value systems. You know, like

00:29:02.289 --> 00:29:05.490
we do this at our retreat. Like, what do you

00:29:05.490 --> 00:29:08.039
want your future to look like? If you were to

00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:10.619
draw it, what do you want it to include? What

00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:12.880
do you want it to look like? And it can look

00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:15.240
radically different than you thought it was going

00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:18.720
to be. One of the shifts that I call people to

00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.319
in couple therapy and couple work is protecting

00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.519
the relationship. We call it a couple bubble.

00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:30.519
Protecting the couple bubble. And I'll tell you,

00:29:30.579 --> 00:29:33.839
that's a hard sell to some people early on, but

00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:36.720
it's truly what they want. They want a good marriage

00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.519
where we tell the truth to each other, where

00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:42.019
what's good for the relationship is what's good

00:29:42.019 --> 00:29:44.900
for me. And so priorities have to shift. Goals

00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:47.299
have to shift. So there are a lot of things that

00:29:47.299 --> 00:29:53.160
will change and grow as we go into this post

00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.819
-traumatic growth. Also, our purpose. And my

00:29:57.819 --> 00:30:01.599
favorite moment in therapy is... When a client

00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:03.559
is sitting on my couch and they look at me and

00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:06.960
they go, okay, I'm ready to give back. I'm ready

00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.819
to start a support group at church. I've got

00:30:09.819 --> 00:30:12.779
to tell somebody about this. And that's really

00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:16.200
the 12th step. It's carrying the message to others.

00:30:16.779 --> 00:30:19.480
And some people go like, okay, all of us, y 'all,

00:30:19.579 --> 00:30:22.599
who wanted this to be in this field? Who wanted

00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:26.440
a podcast on betrayal, right? No, thanks. Yeah,

00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:29.319
we did not sign up. No one's raising their hands.

00:30:30.370 --> 00:30:32.609
Okay, y 'all, I was on jury duty the other day,

00:30:32.650 --> 00:30:35.470
and they asked, you know, during war dire, they

00:30:35.470 --> 00:30:38.430
asked, like, does anybody advocate for addicts?

00:30:38.430 --> 00:30:40.569
And I'm like, oh, crap, should I say this? And

00:30:40.569 --> 00:30:43.109
I'm like, I'm a therapist, and I work with addicts.

00:30:43.109 --> 00:30:46.390
And they go, okay, drug addicts? And I go, no.

00:30:46.930 --> 00:30:49.690
And they said, what kind? And I said, sex addiction.

00:30:49.789 --> 00:30:53.890
And the whole courtroom of 60 people burst out

00:30:53.890 --> 00:30:58.410
in laughter. Really? you don't pick this as a

00:30:58.410 --> 00:31:01.190
thing, but you had to be, I had to be truthful,

00:31:01.250 --> 00:31:03.369
right? I swore that I would tell the whole truth,

00:31:03.390 --> 00:31:06.190
right? Did you tell them the statistics of how

00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:08.769
many of them were probably in the room? Seriously?

00:31:09.170 --> 00:31:12.029
No, but like people came up to me afterwards

00:31:12.029 --> 00:31:13.990
and were telling me stories. I'll tell you that.

00:31:14.109 --> 00:31:18.019
Wow. But we don't pick this. It picks us. And

00:31:18.019 --> 00:31:21.579
the only good that I can find, and there is a

00:31:21.579 --> 00:31:24.099
lot of good I can find, is the good that we're

00:31:24.099 --> 00:31:26.039
doing, that we're giving back, we're educating

00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:28.880
people, we're telling people. So that's a huge

00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.299
shift, I'd say. Boy, is it. Yeah, make your mess

00:31:32.299 --> 00:31:37.640
your message. Yeah, I love that. What would you

00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:43.240
say, Stacey, to the woman who is afraid of growing?

00:31:44.269 --> 00:31:46.809
As an individual, I was just talking with a gal

00:31:46.809 --> 00:31:50.450
the other day who was so afraid and felt disloyal

00:31:50.450 --> 00:31:53.130
to her to grow past her husband or to grow without

00:31:53.130 --> 00:31:57.670
her husband. And her husband is not identifying

00:31:57.670 --> 00:32:00.910
that he has a problem. He's blame shifting. He's

00:32:00.910 --> 00:32:03.190
minimizing. It's the, you know, every guy does

00:32:03.190 --> 00:32:06.109
this kind of thing. And she's in pain. So she

00:32:06.109 --> 00:32:09.150
wants to grow, but she's afraid to grow without

00:32:09.150 --> 00:32:12.329
him because she feels like she's being disloyal.

00:32:13.579 --> 00:32:16.960
She said, I feel like that will make us unequally

00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:20.279
yoked. What would you say to that woman? What

00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:25.480
if it does? What if it does? Because I remember

00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:30.180
like all of a sudden looking in the mirror and

00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:32.279
it's when I finally started working. I went back

00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:34.539
and got my graduate degree and I looked in the

00:32:34.539 --> 00:32:37.160
mirror and he was being so abusive. It was psychological

00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:40.579
abuse. And I just said, you're too much for him.

00:32:40.779 --> 00:32:42.519
I mean, I just looked right at myself in the

00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:46.180
mirror. And he's intimidated by that. But my

00:32:46.180 --> 00:32:48.700
mom used to say it was like he had a butterfly

00:32:48.700 --> 00:32:52.240
in his hand and just crushed it. So, you know,

00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:55.559
what I had to understand with my faith background

00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:57.700
is that God did want me to be that butterfly.

00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:01.319
He did want me to soar. And that that wasn't

00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:06.799
being disloyal to my marriage. That I had a duty

00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.660
to God because of everything that he had done

00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:12.079
for me to be the person. And that's this person

00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:16.039
today. Back then, I couldn't see it. That person

00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:19.240
was so downtrodden. She was such a martyr. She

00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:23.559
was such a mess. And this is what he wanted to

00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:26.180
see me do. And that's not being disloyal to be

00:33:26.180 --> 00:33:28.019
the best person that you can be. In fact, your

00:33:28.019 --> 00:33:32.359
partner should want that for you. And when I

00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:35.240
say should, that's a hard word. But if he can't

00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:37.140
tolerate that, then what are you going to do?

00:33:37.259 --> 00:33:38.799
What are you going to do? You have choices to

00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.799
make in the marriage. It's a good question. What

00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:44.779
I shared with her was that oftentimes, and I'll

00:33:44.779 --> 00:33:47.700
never forget, on D -Day, I was at Dan and Jen

00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:51.160
Howey's house. And I remember Dan telling me

00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:56.460
that it was Jen's growth. It was Jen moving toward

00:33:56.460 --> 00:33:59.859
her healing and the changes he was seeing in

00:33:59.859 --> 00:34:02.890
her that got him to move. And that's where I

00:34:02.890 --> 00:34:05.089
think, you know, one of the things I share with

00:34:05.089 --> 00:34:09.469
women is that these are our husbands. Yes, they're

00:34:09.469 --> 00:34:11.570
also, you know, if we're believers, they're also

00:34:11.570 --> 00:34:14.969
our brothers in Christ. And we're part of the

00:34:14.969 --> 00:34:17.190
body of Christ. And there is that iron sharpening

00:34:17.190 --> 00:34:20.050
iron aspect to this relationship. And maybe it

00:34:20.050 --> 00:34:22.309
was something that God told me throughout my

00:34:22.309 --> 00:34:25.510
healing process was that part of my calling or

00:34:25.510 --> 00:34:28.730
part of my purpose, as we're talking about. a

00:34:28.730 --> 00:34:32.730
priority you know purpose shift is um is to be

00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:36.269
here with my husband while he while he grew while

00:34:36.269 --> 00:34:38.829
god worked in his life and sometimes to stand

00:34:38.829 --> 00:34:42.469
by but sometimes to maybe carry the load a little

00:34:42.469 --> 00:34:45.610
bit more and move forward because as we heal

00:34:45.610 --> 00:34:48.389
it's got to change the dance steps it absolutely

00:34:48.389 --> 00:34:50.570
if you're playing tug of war with someone and

00:34:50.570 --> 00:34:53.309
you let go of the rope it changes the dynamic

00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:59.190
so yeah yes Yeah, thank you for answering that

00:34:59.190 --> 00:35:03.590
quick side question there. So how does post -betrayal

00:35:03.590 --> 00:35:07.809
growth affect our spiritual growth, Stacey? Because

00:35:07.809 --> 00:35:12.570
I know for me, the roots went deep. The roots

00:35:12.570 --> 00:35:16.929
went deep. I feel like prior to this, I was baptized

00:35:16.929 --> 00:35:18.409
when I was eight. I've been a person of faith

00:35:18.409 --> 00:35:21.050
for a long, long time. But I felt like I had

00:35:21.050 --> 00:35:24.389
a really pretty tree, lots of great leaves, but

00:35:24.389 --> 00:35:28.019
my roots weren't very deep. It was the adversity

00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:32.039
of betrayal and then having to dig into my family

00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:34.619
of origin, the baggage I brought into this relationship

00:35:34.619 --> 00:35:37.000
or even outside of the relationship, just who

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.199
I was needed some healing. And God used this

00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:44.400
opportunity. And I'm thankful that I did own

00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:49.019
my life and I did welcome the power, a shift.

00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:53.099
And the roots have gone deep and they're still

00:35:53.099 --> 00:35:55.780
going deep. And I'm so grateful for that. Yeah.

00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.039
How does this affect? I know for me, it, it,

00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.400
it, it, whoa, I don't even have words for it

00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:05.280
to quantify it, but it, it woke me up and changed

00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:09.199
me on a molecular level, I feel like. And, and

00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:14.639
for me, God was oxygen. My reliance upon God,

00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:17.300
he was the firm foundation. He was the one thing

00:36:17.300 --> 00:36:20.460
that I could count on. And I knew that I knew

00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:24.719
that I knew that was solid ground. And so. That's

00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:27.119
where my faith grew. That's where everything

00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:32.460
changed is. And even today, as I get into these

00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:35.320
routines with my new husband and we are just

00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.940
like, I love you more every day and we feel it

00:36:37.940 --> 00:36:40.920
and we experience all these amazing things together

00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:45.280
in our growth together. I get a little panicky

00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.719
and go, I'm getting used to him. I'm getting

00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:49.639
used to him being there. I'm getting used to

00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.719
him being in bed next to me. But then I say.

00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:55.579
Lord, you're above all this and you're what I

00:36:55.579 --> 00:36:58.539
really need. And I, and I just surrender my sweet

00:36:58.539 --> 00:37:01.099
John to you and what we have. And I'm so grateful

00:37:01.099 --> 00:37:03.320
for it today, but I know that I'd be okay without

00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:10.739
it. Boy. Yeah. Yeah. But so in betrayal and injustice

00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:15.139
occurs, it's a true injustice and maybe even

00:37:15.139 --> 00:37:18.510
abuse. And so. As a Christian, we say, okay,

00:37:18.550 --> 00:37:22.289
how do we respond to abuse? How do we respond

00:37:22.289 --> 00:37:26.269
when somebody wrongs me? So some of the things

00:37:26.269 --> 00:37:30.449
that I misunderstood is I thought I should be

00:37:30.449 --> 00:37:34.110
silent. Just be like Jesus, just silent before

00:37:34.110 --> 00:37:37.369
his accusers, right? And I zipped my lips because

00:37:37.369 --> 00:37:39.610
that's what the word said. Win him over without

00:37:39.610 --> 00:37:42.670
a word. And I tried that. I did that, right?

00:37:43.340 --> 00:37:44.760
You know, and then we ask ourselves, should I

00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.179
respond like Paul did? You know, and he just

00:37:47.179 --> 00:37:50.820
robustly defended himself. But there is no simple

00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:53.679
answer like that. I tried everything. I tried

00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:55.900
to be quiet. You know, my attachment style probably

00:37:55.900 --> 00:37:59.900
went all over the quadrants because I was just

00:37:59.900 --> 00:38:03.380
trying desperately for something to work, right?

00:38:03.639 --> 00:38:06.940
But this is when prayer becomes your lifeline.

00:38:08.889 --> 00:38:11.130
Again, surrender, I use that word a lot because

00:38:11.130 --> 00:38:13.289
that's what it is, is just giving it to God,

00:38:13.349 --> 00:38:16.630
surrendering to him, to bring your cause before

00:38:16.630 --> 00:38:21.989
him, to voice that out of this isn't fair. You

00:38:21.989 --> 00:38:23.590
know, if you read so many of the Psalms, this

00:38:23.590 --> 00:38:26.349
isn't fair. My oppressors are there and I had

00:38:26.349 --> 00:38:30.699
to. make my husband an oppressor in my mind in

00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:33.960
order to detach from him. I had to do that. And

00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:37.360
to just say, give me wisdom and give me justice,

00:38:37.699 --> 00:38:41.639
Lord, because this isn't so unfair. So when I

00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:45.360
allowed God to meet me there, my soul became

00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:51.900
settled. And sometimes we want to just be still

00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:55.710
and be quiet about it and push it away. And that

00:38:55.710 --> 00:38:59.530
would be a travesty to not talk to God about

00:38:59.530 --> 00:39:03.829
it. He's there. He understands. He gets it. But

00:39:03.829 --> 00:39:07.789
I would get a sense of, and he could give you

00:39:07.789 --> 00:39:11.510
a deep assurance of his love and his presence

00:39:11.510 --> 00:39:15.210
and knowing that in time, he'll set everything

00:39:15.210 --> 00:39:17.409
right. He'll set everything straight. And I'm

00:39:17.409 --> 00:39:19.489
a testament to that. And I thought that might

00:39:19.489 --> 00:39:23.610
be a marriage, right? But it wasn't. It was my

00:39:23.610 --> 00:39:26.480
life. I know that God gave me a reign of promise

00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.699
that said, he who began a good work in you, being

00:39:29.699 --> 00:39:31.760
confident of this, he who began a good work in

00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:33.760
you will be faithful to complete it. I thought

00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:37.139
that was about my marriage. And I had somebody

00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:39.019
say, that's about you, honey. And I went, no,

00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:41.380
it's not. You know, you can't tell me what God

00:39:41.380 --> 00:39:43.960
told me, but you know. Yeah. Hang on to what

00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:49.019
we can hang on to. But understanding spiritual

00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:51.739
growth and so much of that, we have to let go

00:39:51.739 --> 00:39:56.280
of some of the anger. Romans 12, 19 says, Beloved,

00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:59.159
never avenge yourselves, but leave the wrath

00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:01.960
to God, for it's written, vengeance is mine.

00:40:02.139 --> 00:40:05.860
I will repay, says the Lord. You know, there's

00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:08.880
some people who have a very overactive part of

00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:10.980
their brain that says, this is just not right,

00:40:11.059 --> 00:40:13.000
and I won't rest because it's not right. And

00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:15.280
that is truly something we have to leave and

00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:18.300
surrender to God, the injustice of it all. It

00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:21.530
is an important stage to grieve. But it is just

00:40:21.530 --> 00:40:25.329
so hard to just finally say, okay, I let it go.

00:40:25.429 --> 00:40:28.110
I don't understand it. I don't get it. And I

00:40:28.110 --> 00:40:31.329
give it to you. Yeah, that's good. In my first

00:40:31.329 --> 00:40:35.190
marriage, I did that pretty well. His stuff was

00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:37.969
top of the news, so it was very public. And so

00:40:37.969 --> 00:40:42.590
I will admit it was a little bit easier because

00:40:42.590 --> 00:40:46.190
of that. But in my second marriage, that's when

00:40:46.190 --> 00:40:49.960
I came to a crisis of faith. My spiritual growth,

00:40:50.059 --> 00:40:54.400
I had gone from having solid faith to really

00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:56.840
wanting, really trying to determine whether or

00:40:56.840 --> 00:41:00.800
not God was real. Because if he was real, why

00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:03.659
would he put my kids through another potential

00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:09.340
losing a father, right? And so I had reconciled

00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:11.579
that maybe God wasn't real. But if he was real,

00:41:11.820 --> 00:41:15.719
he was cruel. And why would he let me go through

00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:17.960
this type of suffering again? Why would he let

00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:19.940
my kids go through this type of suffering again?

00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:22.840
And so then I had to try to determine, do I even

00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:25.119
want to serve a God like that? That is a cruel

00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:28.380
God, the kind of God that keeps you under his

00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:31.780
thumb or constantly sends you to this emotional

00:41:31.780 --> 00:41:34.780
emergency room. where you can rely on him and

00:41:34.780 --> 00:41:36.940
feel comforted. I didn't want, I was not interested

00:41:36.940 --> 00:41:40.280
in a God who would put me through suffering just

00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:43.019
so that I could rely on him. Like, can you like

00:41:43.019 --> 00:41:45.820
meet me in a happier place where I can experience

00:41:45.820 --> 00:41:48.239
you that way? Because this version of you, God,

00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:51.139
I didn't like. I had this whole wrestling. And

00:41:51.139 --> 00:41:53.000
I don't want to say it was a deconstruction of

00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:57.039
faith because that word has its own connotations

00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.340
in today's society. But I will say that there

00:42:00.340 --> 00:42:02.840
was a necessary deconstruction of faith that

00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.400
was taking place. We know that thoughts and beliefs

00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.320
create emotions that drive behavior. And so there

00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:11.219
was an entire belief system behind who I believed

00:42:11.219 --> 00:42:14.559
God to be and what he would do in my life that

00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:18.500
I had to wrestle through. And then eventually,

00:42:19.019 --> 00:42:21.019
I remember I was in a group setting and I told

00:42:21.019 --> 00:42:23.679
this woman, actually the entire group this, and

00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:25.699
she looked at me with so much compassion in her

00:42:25.699 --> 00:42:28.750
eyes. and said, I'm going to pray for you. And

00:42:28.750 --> 00:42:30.550
I remember thinking, oh, all right, sister, you

00:42:30.550 --> 00:42:32.710
just go ahead and do that. Because, yeah, apparently

00:42:32.710 --> 00:42:34.570
you've got a good relationship with God. So you

00:42:34.570 --> 00:42:36.110
just talk to your God about all these things

00:42:36.110 --> 00:42:40.789
and pray for me. All right. Well, now my youngest

00:42:40.789 --> 00:42:42.670
son at the time who I'd been very concerned about

00:42:42.670 --> 00:42:46.070
is a pastor. And he's a pastor of prayer and

00:42:46.070 --> 00:42:49.429
outreach. And she is on his prayer team. And

00:42:49.429 --> 00:42:51.889
every time I see her, let me just tell you, first

00:42:51.889 --> 00:42:53.909
of all, I'm very in love with Jesus. But I had

00:42:53.909 --> 00:42:55.949
to go through a reconciling to get to that point.

00:42:56.269 --> 00:42:58.489
to understand who he was. And now I see this

00:42:58.489 --> 00:43:02.510
woman who my son, who she had been praying for,

00:43:02.550 --> 00:43:04.570
you know, back when he was just a child, was

00:43:04.570 --> 00:43:07.590
now over her and mentoring her in her own prayer

00:43:07.590 --> 00:43:10.949
life. She had prayed for me and it changed my

00:43:10.949 --> 00:43:14.289
life. It changed my life to have someone who

00:43:14.289 --> 00:43:17.250
cared that much about my spiritual growth. And

00:43:17.250 --> 00:43:20.530
so if you're out there and you're struggling

00:43:20.530 --> 00:43:25.780
in your faith, It's okay. That's okay. As a matter

00:43:25.780 --> 00:43:27.320
of fact, it might actually be a really, really

00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.380
great thing because God wants to reveal himself

00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:34.760
to you. That song, Pieces, man, when I got to

00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:36.440
a point where I was like, I'm so tired of my

00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:38.320
husband not being able to fully give himself

00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:42.320
to me. I'm so tired of the emotional withholding

00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:46.920
and the lack of surrender. I'm so sick of these

00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:49.150
things. When I started to realize, that Jesus

00:43:49.150 --> 00:43:51.929
actually encompassed everything I've ever wanted

00:43:51.929 --> 00:43:56.190
in a husband, I was like, oh my gosh, this dude

00:43:56.190 --> 00:43:59.449
Jesus is amazing. Mindset shift. So want to be

00:43:59.449 --> 00:44:02.269
in love with this guy. That is one of my favorite

00:44:02.269 --> 00:44:04.789
songs. I love it. It is so good. It is so good.

00:44:04.889 --> 00:44:08.449
And I just, once I realized that, I was like,

00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:12.409
no one compares to Jesus. And then my appetite.

00:44:13.630 --> 00:44:15.710
For that type of connection started to shift

00:44:15.710 --> 00:44:18.329
toward him instead of my husband. And let me

00:44:18.329 --> 00:44:21.010
just tell you, that changed everything. So healthy.

00:44:21.489 --> 00:44:25.150
I just want to interject. And I know before Friends

00:44:25.150 --> 00:44:27.710
pre -roll, we were talking about how we try to

00:44:27.710 --> 00:44:31.230
keep the podcast to 45 minutes to maybe 60. And

00:44:31.230 --> 00:44:32.849
I don't think we're going to meet that mark.

00:44:32.949 --> 00:44:35.030
And that's OK, because this is a great conversation.

00:44:35.230 --> 00:44:39.289
But Jen, as you were talking, we're going to

00:44:39.289 --> 00:44:42.869
have the gentleman that taught me this on in.

00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:47.159
in a month or so, Pastor Paul Goulet, he taught

00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.420
me in Bible college about God concepts. And as

00:44:50.420 --> 00:44:52.980
you were talking, Jen, you were describing the

00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:56.760
cruel chess player. So in a quick nutshell, there

00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:02.000
are four main wrong concepts of God that we develop

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:05.860
usually through our fathers, but it can be through

00:45:05.860 --> 00:45:07.920
our mothers if they're the primary caretaker.

00:45:08.799 --> 00:45:12.239
um, or other, uh, authority figures. But the

00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:16.139
first one is Zeus that God is sitting up in the

00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:17.840
heavens, just waiting to throw a lightning bolt

00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:20.940
at us when we mess up. Uh, he's just, he's the

00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:23.579
punisher basically. And the next one is, uh,

00:45:23.659 --> 00:45:25.579
the one you were describing, Jen, is the, the,

00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:28.519
the cruel chess player that we're just pawns

00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:31.099
on a board game. And he's just moving us around

00:45:31.099 --> 00:45:33.880
to his, you know, board delight. He's a little

00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.849
sadistic. And he doesn't care about the outcome.

00:45:37.110 --> 00:45:39.369
It's almost like he's doing some cosmic experiment.

00:45:39.469 --> 00:45:41.829
Like we're lab rats. If I put her here and her

00:45:41.829 --> 00:45:43.690
kids here, what's going to happen? OK, now what

00:45:43.690 --> 00:45:46.369
happens if I double up the trauma? You know what?

00:45:46.429 --> 00:45:48.449
Now what's going to happen to them? Angels gather

00:45:48.449 --> 00:45:49.929
around. Let's watch. You know, it's going to

00:45:49.929 --> 00:45:52.989
be fun. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another one

00:45:52.989 --> 00:45:56.690
is the absentee landlord that he created all

00:45:56.690 --> 00:45:59.329
of this, this world, these people, these animals.

00:45:59.409 --> 00:46:01.309
He just kind of threw us all down here and then

00:46:01.309 --> 00:46:04.719
took off in the cosmos for some, you know. vacation.

00:46:05.019 --> 00:46:06.800
We don't know if he's ever coming back. He's

00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.400
just gone. And he just left us here to figure

00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:12.219
it out for ourselves. And then the one I struggled

00:46:12.219 --> 00:46:16.800
with is the harsh ruler. And that one was because

00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:20.599
I grew up in a family system that was very image

00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:25.460
oriented and results oriented. So that one says

00:46:25.460 --> 00:46:27.440
that if you don't measure up to God's standards,

00:46:27.559 --> 00:46:29.500
then he's going to reject you. And it's a very

00:46:29.500 --> 00:46:31.980
works -based faith. too, that you have to be

00:46:31.980 --> 00:46:33.780
the good girl. You've got to be the good guy,

00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:36.260
you know, and if you don't, if you fail, if you

00:46:36.260 --> 00:46:38.440
screw up, God's going to cross his arms and turn

00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:40.840
his back on you. And so just to wrap up this

00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:43.699
little section of how post -betrayal growth affects

00:46:43.699 --> 00:46:46.820
our spiritual walk. Again, we'll go into this

00:46:46.820 --> 00:46:50.980
deeper with Paul in the future, but Lord willing,

00:46:51.099 --> 00:46:55.739
but 1 Corinthians 13 verses 4 through verse 8.

00:46:56.269 --> 00:46:59.230
is God's resume. That is who he actually is.

00:46:59.789 --> 00:47:02.250
And where it says love or charity in your Bible,

00:47:02.289 --> 00:47:04.769
you can replace that with God. So God is patient.

00:47:04.889 --> 00:47:07.110
God is kind. God is slow to anger. You know,

00:47:07.130 --> 00:47:09.869
God never fails. God doesn't keep record of wrongs.

00:47:09.869 --> 00:47:12.909
That's who he really is. And so reconciling that

00:47:12.909 --> 00:47:17.289
in the midst of this betrayal trauma can be mental

00:47:17.289 --> 00:47:22.039
gymnastics for sure. But God is patient in that

00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:24.559
with us, right, Stacey? Yes, yes. And we could

00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:26.739
talk, I mean, this subject, I've done many a

00:47:26.739 --> 00:47:29.719
podcast on spiritual trauma, spiritual abuse,

00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:33.139
spiritual everything, including Sills at Sexual

00:47:33.139 --> 00:47:35.420
Integrity Leadership Summit. And there's so much

00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:39.300
here. And I just say to the listeners, work through

00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:42.380
it with someone that's healthy and can help you

00:47:42.380 --> 00:47:46.079
walk through your anger, your questions, all

00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:50.889
of that about God, and he can take it. Okay.

00:47:50.949 --> 00:47:53.889
Well, that's just an invite back then, Stacey.

00:47:54.130 --> 00:47:56.329
We're going to have you back to talk about that.

00:47:56.369 --> 00:47:58.610
I'm making a note right now. Okay. All right.

00:47:58.730 --> 00:48:01.670
So Stacey, you know, here we are talking about

00:48:01.670 --> 00:48:04.190
all of this post -traumatic growth and you kind

00:48:04.190 --> 00:48:06.670
of spoke of new opportunities that open up after

00:48:06.670 --> 00:48:10.989
surviving betrayal trauma. That can be scary.

00:48:11.289 --> 00:48:13.289
That's a scary, like, well, new opportunities.

00:48:13.409 --> 00:48:15.869
Do I really want them? Because I just really

00:48:15.869 --> 00:48:18.489
want what I have right now to heal. Talk to us

00:48:18.489 --> 00:48:20.829
a little bit about that. Are there really new

00:48:20.829 --> 00:48:22.530
opportunities? What does that mean? What does

00:48:22.530 --> 00:48:25.530
that look like? Well, you know, we've talked

00:48:25.530 --> 00:48:28.150
about a few of them, like family of origin work.

00:48:28.309 --> 00:48:31.769
I mean, of like, it's painful, the chiseling,

00:48:31.769 --> 00:48:33.730
like you were just talking about, Jen. I didn't

00:48:33.730 --> 00:48:36.070
want to go through this so I could become closer

00:48:36.070 --> 00:48:39.030
to God. But yet now, you know, the gift that

00:48:39.030 --> 00:48:42.070
it gave you. And we don't, we usually get that

00:48:42.070 --> 00:48:45.190
through adversity. And so. Looking and understanding

00:48:45.190 --> 00:48:47.809
where we came from, it's an opportunity to go

00:48:47.809 --> 00:48:50.369
to some of those places. Again, I don't want

00:48:50.369 --> 00:48:52.610
to pathologize betrayed partners. Not everyone

00:48:52.610 --> 00:48:55.989
has family of origin issues. But Lord, we live

00:48:55.989 --> 00:48:59.590
in a world where we can get trauma very easily

00:48:59.590 --> 00:49:04.849
from a lot of sources. And so getting the opportunity

00:49:04.849 --> 00:49:08.989
to look at that stuff. Attachment. I mean...

00:49:09.260 --> 00:49:12.119
What a great gift it is to all of a sudden understand

00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:16.039
how we become attached and what secure attachment

00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:19.519
looks like. That's been such a gift for me to

00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:22.880
be able to understand relationships in terms

00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:26.380
of attachment and how people attach and when

00:49:26.380 --> 00:49:29.960
an attachment rupture happens, how devastating

00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:33.400
it is, how it blows your life up, like you said,

00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:37.599
Napalm. And so the opportunities that open up

00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.320
is, man, we can get You know, we ask couples

00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:42.500
all the time, we can get better than before.

00:49:42.579 --> 00:49:44.960
Would you ever want to go to this reality? You

00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:47.099
know, we talk to them about the reality before

00:49:47.099 --> 00:49:50.780
betrayal. And they're sitting here asking, like,

00:49:50.900 --> 00:49:54.500
how can I reconcile having children and all this

00:49:54.500 --> 00:49:57.199
while he was acting out this entire time? And

00:49:57.199 --> 00:49:59.960
now that I know what I know about that acting

00:49:59.960 --> 00:50:02.099
out, but we always ask them, would you go back

00:50:02.099 --> 00:50:05.179
to that couple before betrayal? And they say,

00:50:05.260 --> 00:50:09.550
nope, nope. So this is an opportunity to become

00:50:09.550 --> 00:50:13.989
a deeper, richer, closer couple, or in my case,

00:50:13.989 --> 00:50:17.070
a deeper, richer, fuller, healthier individual,

00:50:17.409 --> 00:50:20.369
right? But we don't know which way it's going

00:50:20.369 --> 00:50:25.090
to go. But when we do our own work, we start

00:50:25.090 --> 00:50:26.949
to get there. And that's definitely an opportunity

00:50:26.949 --> 00:50:30.960
for me. It was an opportunity I never spoke up.

00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:33.420
Like I told you, I didn't feel like it was my

00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:35.800
ground to stand up, my place to stand up. And

00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.179
I learned that that was mistruth that I had learned

00:50:39.179 --> 00:50:41.900
along the way. So there was an opportunity to

00:50:41.900 --> 00:50:46.480
use my voice. And one of my core values now is

00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:49.519
boldness. And I have to have it. Managing this

00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:53.039
team here, you know, they want me to be a leader.

00:50:53.099 --> 00:50:55.420
They don't want me to just sit back and shrink

00:50:55.420 --> 00:50:58.480
down. You know, it's challenging for me. to be

00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.179
bold and do the hard thing, but it's an opportunity

00:51:01.179 --> 00:51:03.699
for growth. You know, if we're not growing, we're

00:51:03.699 --> 00:51:06.579
dying. I mean, recovery is a lifelong process

00:51:06.579 --> 00:51:09.559
and I love the process. And of course, empowerment,

00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:12.519
you know, just being able to be the person that

00:51:12.519 --> 00:51:15.199
God created me to be. And it wouldn't be if I

00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:18.400
hadn't gone through the hard stuff. And resilience

00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:22.360
is just such a great word. Resilience, the word

00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:25.139
to me means taking us back to the shape we were

00:51:25.139 --> 00:51:30.510
before. I always try to say, like, maybe even

00:51:30.510 --> 00:51:33.130
better than before. And usually that's what I

00:51:33.130 --> 00:51:35.269
find with people I work with, that they are better

00:51:35.269 --> 00:51:39.070
than before. One of the ways that we can measure

00:51:39.070 --> 00:51:42.449
resilience, and we do measure it with betrayed

00:51:42.449 --> 00:51:48.510
partners on the IPAST, it's an assessment, and

00:51:48.510 --> 00:51:51.610
it's the Inventory for Partner Attachment Stress

00:51:51.610 --> 00:51:55.090
and Trauma. And it's made specifically for partners

00:51:55.090 --> 00:51:59.579
of sex addicts. And we ask them these questions.

00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:03.420
I feel I am an emotionally stronger person because

00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:07.320
of my experiences. Yes or no? My relationships

00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:09.860
with others have deepened and become more meaningful.

00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:13.619
Yes or no? I believe there are positive things

00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:16.539
that will come out of learning about my partner's

00:52:16.539 --> 00:52:20.739
sexually acting out behaviors. I am better to

00:52:20.739 --> 00:52:23.619
adapt to challenging situations. Better able

00:52:23.619 --> 00:52:27.110
to adapt to challenging situations. I have more

00:52:27.110 --> 00:52:29.150
confidence in myself now because of what I've

00:52:29.150 --> 00:52:31.110
experienced. I want to take this assessment.

00:52:31.829 --> 00:52:34.489
Isn't it great? Yes. I'm just going, yes, yes,

00:52:34.550 --> 00:52:37.929
check, check, check. Find it easier to find humor

00:52:37.929 --> 00:52:40.349
and enjoy life now that I know what's going on

00:52:40.349 --> 00:52:45.409
with my partner. So I know really quickly whether

00:52:45.409 --> 00:52:47.809
a person is resilient. That helps me. And if

00:52:47.809 --> 00:52:51.570
not, I help them get there. I help them move

00:52:51.570 --> 00:52:55.590
into resiliency. The opportunity for resiliency

00:52:55.590 --> 00:52:57.429
is a great thing because then you don't fear

00:52:57.429 --> 00:53:00.909
what's going to happen. You know, post -traumatic

00:53:00.909 --> 00:53:04.429
growth reestablishes the baseline, like the baseline

00:53:04.429 --> 00:53:07.829
of like what I want to be. And the bar usually

00:53:07.829 --> 00:53:10.750
moves up. I want better. I don't want to go back

00:53:10.750 --> 00:53:13.650
to how I was before. I want better. What kind

00:53:13.650 --> 00:53:17.190
of behavior will I accept? What is healthy? All

00:53:17.190 --> 00:53:19.369
of a sudden, now I have this opportunity. What

00:53:19.369 --> 00:53:22.559
is self -love all about? Is that? What did she

00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.579
say she thought was disloyal to her husband?

00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:29.420
Is self -love disloyal? Is it biblical? And so

00:53:29.420 --> 00:53:35.079
now, all of a sudden, there's opportunities for

00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:38.380
all kinds of things in life that you never thought

00:53:38.380 --> 00:53:40.940
of before. And I don't want to say, oh, go out

00:53:40.940 --> 00:53:42.659
and get betrayed so all these things can happen

00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:45.679
to you. But these are some gifts of what can

00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:48.679
happen in good recovery. Go ahead, Jen. You were

00:53:48.679 --> 00:53:51.860
going to say something? Oh, girl. Girl, this

00:53:51.860 --> 00:53:55.579
is just such a great conversation. It's sparking

00:53:55.579 --> 00:53:59.260
so much. That list that you have there needs

00:53:59.260 --> 00:54:03.059
to be plastered on so many of our mirrors. It

00:54:03.059 --> 00:54:05.599
needs to be plastered on our hearts. Because

00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:07.659
for many of us that have been in the process

00:54:07.659 --> 00:54:09.840
for years, you know, a lot of us have bought

00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:11.619
into this, oh, it's a two to five year process.

00:54:11.739 --> 00:54:15.780
Well, here's the truth that some people it's

00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:18.579
longer than a five year process. And some people

00:54:18.579 --> 00:54:21.250
it's less than two. Yeah, well, good for them.

00:54:21.369 --> 00:54:26.550
Happy for that for you. But regardless, that

00:54:26.550 --> 00:54:30.150
list, sometimes when we get stuck in the muck

00:54:30.150 --> 00:54:33.829
and the mire of the heaviness of this type of

00:54:33.829 --> 00:54:38.210
recovery, we lose sight of that list. And so

00:54:38.210 --> 00:54:40.909
I had written down, I'm not back there. I'm here.

00:54:41.010 --> 00:54:44.449
Look at that list. Look at who I am today. Are

00:54:44.449 --> 00:54:46.769
you talking about the assessment questions? Yeah,

00:54:46.769 --> 00:54:52.179
the yes, yes. Yes, because we lose sight of that

00:54:52.179 --> 00:54:55.840
and the enemy wants to blind us and keep us focused.

00:54:55.900 --> 00:54:57.579
It's like smoke and mirrors. It wants to keep

00:54:57.579 --> 00:54:59.760
us focused on the parts that are challenging,

00:54:59.980 --> 00:55:06.840
forgetting where we were and how far we've come.

00:55:07.340 --> 00:55:10.059
And the Lord wants to speak to that. He wants

00:55:10.059 --> 00:55:12.579
to shape our identity around that. Look at you.

00:55:12.619 --> 00:55:14.360
Look what I've created in you. Look what I've

00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:17.500
done in you. Yes, these other things might still

00:55:17.500 --> 00:55:21.980
be taking place. but friend sister daughter this

00:55:21.980 --> 00:55:26.360
is who you are and this is evidence of me working

00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:30.579
in your life and boy that shifts one's thinking

00:55:30.579 --> 00:55:34.980
and perspective and it talk about power like

00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:38.219
it shifts your power yeah it's supernatural yeah

00:55:38.219 --> 00:55:40.340
that's right it's good stuff that's right and

00:55:40.340 --> 00:55:42.860
we're vision casters in the work we do where

00:55:42.860 --> 00:55:46.460
we have to point this out to them because you

00:55:46.460 --> 00:55:48.949
forget You know, you've got blinders on. You've

00:55:48.949 --> 00:55:50.969
been going at this two, three years. You forget.

00:55:51.150 --> 00:55:53.869
Four years. You forget. I tell couples all the

00:55:53.869 --> 00:55:55.969
time, look where you're at. Not very many couples

00:55:55.969 --> 00:55:59.250
get here. And being hope givers and being aware

00:55:59.250 --> 00:56:02.449
of, yes, how far you've come. We're always focused

00:56:02.449 --> 00:56:05.030
on where we're going. But looking at how much

00:56:05.030 --> 00:56:08.050
we have accomplished is so important. Okay. I

00:56:08.050 --> 00:56:11.210
know. I don't even know how to present this.

00:56:11.250 --> 00:56:14.260
I'm one of those weirdos. Yes, you are. I will.

00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:16.699
I will. I know. I know. Jen's like, mm -hmm.

00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.880
I know. 25 years. There's a Z -snap in there.

00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:25.179
I saw that. I'm one of those weirdos that my...

00:56:25.179 --> 00:56:29.059
Okay. I did this program where I did a bunch

00:56:29.059 --> 00:56:32.320
of assessments, found out that I have an incredible

00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:36.119
sense of adventure. And... It was something I

00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:38.400
thought I needed to apologize for because I thought

00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:42.500
it was a coping mechanism that had become a crutch

00:56:42.500 --> 00:56:44.619
or a way of life. And when our coping mechanisms

00:56:44.619 --> 00:56:47.679
become a way of life, friends, that's dangerous

00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:50.260
if it's an unhealthy coping mechanism. But what

00:56:50.260 --> 00:56:53.300
I was so grateful for when I took this class

00:56:53.300 --> 00:56:57.239
was that my sense of adventure is part of...

00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:59.880
who I am. It's something that God created into

00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:03.039
my being. And so to circle back, I was one of

00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:05.619
those weirdos that when I was going through healing,

00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:09.239
after I stopped vibrating from stress, after

00:57:09.239 --> 00:57:12.039
my heart calmed down and my blood pressure came

00:57:12.039 --> 00:57:14.000
down and I was able to sleep again at night and

00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:16.519
I was able to eat again and all of those things,

00:57:16.599 --> 00:57:18.900
I kind of started getting into that phase two

00:57:18.900 --> 00:57:22.199
of the APSATS model where we're grieving and

00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:24.400
we're creating boundaries and there was some

00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:28.860
stabilization happening. I saw adventure in this,

00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:33.559
and it wasn't about the ick, the hard, the gut

00:57:33.559 --> 00:57:37.000
-wrenching, the destructive nature of betrayal.

00:57:37.179 --> 00:57:39.559
It was when I shifted away, just like you just

00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:41.980
said, Stacey, from what was going on with my

00:57:41.980 --> 00:57:44.320
spouse into what's God doing here? How is he

00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:47.300
not wasting my pain? And I found that to be such

00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:49.760
a grand adventure, and I'm still on it. I feel

00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:51.760
like I'm like, do you remember that Stephen Curtis

00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:54.659
Chapman song, Saddle Up Your Horses? The great

00:57:54.659 --> 00:57:57.880
adventure, right? I got that in my head as I'm

00:57:57.880 --> 00:57:59.840
saying that. Talk to us a little bit about how

00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:03.820
there's a sense of adventure after trauma. Yeah,

00:58:03.880 --> 00:58:06.920
and you can feel it in your body. Yeah. Do you

00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:08.840
know that, Chris? It's a little exhilarating.

00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:10.940
Oh, yeah, I feel it right here. Where the heaviness

00:58:10.940 --> 00:58:14.019
in my chest used to be, now there's an exhilaration

00:58:14.019 --> 00:58:17.980
there. Yeah, and it is a resource. It is a resource

00:58:17.980 --> 00:58:22.719
of, oh, what could be? Oh, what is possible?

00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:28.559
Now I'm hearing Dr. Seuss. Oh, the places you'll

00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:33.440
go. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But and that was

00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:35.340
for me in the beginning, the places you'll go.

00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:37.960
I was still in my marriage and there was a graduate

00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:40.500
class that I wanted to take and it was offered

00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:43.900
in Athens, Greece. And we were so broke and student

00:58:43.900 --> 00:58:47.019
loans out the kazoo I was taking. But I realized

00:58:47.019 --> 00:58:49.760
that I could go to Greece and I probably shouldn't

00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:52.139
have because I still owe a lot of money today.

00:58:52.730 --> 00:58:56.070
But what that did for me, I went to Greece by

00:58:56.070 --> 00:59:00.530
myself, not knowing anybody. But I proved to

00:59:00.530 --> 00:59:04.449
myself that I could do that. And at that point,

00:59:04.469 --> 00:59:06.909
I knew I wanted to stay in my marriage. But I

00:59:06.909 --> 00:59:10.429
started building up me and thought, you know

00:59:10.429 --> 00:59:16.289
what? You're not doing anything wrong by doing

00:59:16.289 --> 00:59:19.030
that. Even walking around the block. My husband

00:59:19.030 --> 00:59:21.739
used to say, that neighborhood's not safe don't

00:59:21.739 --> 00:59:25.440
go further than this and I thought really I gave

00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:27.340
judgment about what's safe or not and I thought

00:59:27.340 --> 00:59:30.119
this is he was very controlling so this was something

00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:32.880
I could control for myself and it was an adventure

00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:35.039
oh I found this new neighborhood oh how about

00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:37.460
this oh I went a little further and that was

00:59:37.460 --> 00:59:41.659
infectious inside me it was like oh I can do

00:59:41.659 --> 00:59:43.920
this and it really built my self -confidence

00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:49.230
so from travel to just even trips alone speaking

00:59:49.230 --> 00:59:52.750
and work with new life. And I would travel and

00:59:52.750 --> 00:59:55.309
speak with them and then spend a couple extra

00:59:55.309 --> 00:59:57.889
days in Laguna Beach or a couple extra days in

00:59:57.889 --> 01:00:00.670
Washington, D .C. And it was exciting. Like,

01:00:00.710 --> 01:00:02.590
maybe I can find the great restaurant. I'm such

01:00:02.590 --> 01:00:04.869
a foodie. And, you know, maybe this would be

01:00:04.869 --> 01:00:06.809
maybe this would be fun and the greatest beach.

01:00:06.889 --> 01:00:09.429
And it was like, you know what? This is what

01:00:09.429 --> 01:00:12.369
living life is about. And it felt great. So then.

01:00:13.130 --> 01:00:17.010
The ultimate adventure was love, risking again

01:00:17.010 --> 01:00:21.510
in love. I just made a sound, sorry. I know.

01:00:21.809 --> 01:00:25.469
I know most people do. But people say, after

01:00:25.469 --> 01:00:28.869
what you do for a living, how can you even begin

01:00:28.869 --> 01:00:31.489
to trust men? And I said, because I knew it was

01:00:31.489 --> 01:00:33.530
out there. I knew what I was looking for was

01:00:33.530 --> 01:00:35.369
out there, a good, safe, secure relationship.

01:00:35.769 --> 01:00:38.710
And I kissed a lot of frogs. But I'll tell you,

01:00:38.789 --> 01:00:41.530
dating was an adventure. And I had to learn how

01:00:41.530 --> 01:00:44.340
to do it scared. A lot of those things were very

01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:46.340
scary for me. The Greece trip, while I was there,

01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:48.820
I almost had a panic attack, but I learned how

01:00:48.820 --> 01:00:51.519
to deal with it and move past it. I didn't have

01:00:51.519 --> 01:00:54.260
any panic attacks in dating, but might as well

01:00:54.260 --> 01:00:58.619
have. And so just going forward and anything

01:00:58.619 --> 01:01:00.880
is possible. And that's what I want to say. Betrayal

01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:03.000
doesn't have to end your life. It can be the

01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:05.659
beginning of something amazing and beautiful.

01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:09.199
I love how Brené Brown talks about that this

01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:11.710
doesn't have to be the ending. And you can write

01:01:11.710 --> 01:01:14.769
the ending of your story. Yes. And that just

01:01:14.769 --> 01:01:17.989
speaks back to taking your power back or welcoming

01:01:17.989 --> 01:01:19.989
that new power that maybe you've never had before.

01:01:20.210 --> 01:01:23.349
Right. So I hate to get to the point where we

01:01:23.349 --> 01:01:28.429
are starting to close this episode because I

01:01:28.429 --> 01:01:30.650
honestly just don't want it to end. There's so

01:01:30.650 --> 01:01:33.570
much good conversation that we could have. But

01:01:33.570 --> 01:01:37.469
in closing, what is a word of encouragement that

01:01:37.469 --> 01:01:42.010
you would like to share with our listeners? Who

01:01:42.010 --> 01:01:45.150
would say, let us be your, let us hold your hope

01:01:45.150 --> 01:01:50.030
for you. Let us be your hope. Because if you're

01:01:50.030 --> 01:01:52.929
day one, day two, day three, day four, after

01:01:52.929 --> 01:01:56.130
D -Day, month one, month two, month, year one,

01:01:56.369 --> 01:01:59.710
month two, you know, you can't see anything good.

01:01:59.869 --> 01:02:02.190
Everything's black and white and everything's

01:02:02.190 --> 01:02:05.929
bad. Let us hold on to hope for you. We've all

01:02:05.929 --> 01:02:10.010
survived betrayal. And I've watched many, many,

01:02:10.070 --> 01:02:14.269
many women and men survive betrayal and have

01:02:14.269 --> 01:02:18.590
a much better life afterwards. So just remember

01:02:18.590 --> 01:02:22.230
our voices, even if you can't see it right now.

01:02:22.349 --> 01:02:24.329
And if you're on the track and you're relating

01:02:24.329 --> 01:02:26.969
to what we're saying and you're feeling it inside

01:02:26.969 --> 01:02:28.809
and you're just wanting to dance, you go girl.

01:02:28.969 --> 01:02:31.670
That's what I want to say is just keep doing,

01:02:31.750 --> 01:02:34.010
taking, doing the next right thing and taking

01:02:34.010 --> 01:02:38.440
the next step because. recovery is in your hands

01:02:38.440 --> 01:02:41.579
and you can be which one to be. I love what you

01:02:41.579 --> 01:02:44.300
just said there. Do the next right thing. My

01:02:44.300 --> 01:02:46.840
dad used to say, inch by inch, everything's a

01:02:46.840 --> 01:02:48.800
cinch. And how do you eat an elephant? One bite

01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:52.159
at a time. And betrayal, that napalming, your

01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:55.659
life can be so overwhelming. So overwhelming.

01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:57.579
And friend, if you're there, I love what you

01:02:57.579 --> 01:03:01.320
said, Stacey. We will hold hope for you. In the

01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:03.480
meantime, you just keep doing that next right

01:03:03.480 --> 01:03:08.139
thing. Get out of bed. Feed your kids. Take a

01:03:08.139 --> 01:03:12.940
shower. Feed yourself. Call a friend. Show up

01:03:12.940 --> 01:03:15.739
for work. Just do one thing at a time. But the

01:03:15.739 --> 01:03:18.539
day will come where that adventure will be there.

01:03:18.619 --> 01:03:20.280
You'll see those measurables. You're going to

01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:23.559
see the growth that you've experienced. And you

01:03:23.559 --> 01:03:26.699
will laugh again. You will rejoice again. You

01:03:26.699 --> 01:03:29.300
will have good things to look forward to again.

01:03:29.500 --> 01:03:33.400
Renee Brown said something really cool. I don't

01:03:33.400 --> 01:03:34.860
know if it was recent, but I heard it recently.

01:03:35.369 --> 01:03:37.250
But she said, our worth and our belonging are

01:03:37.250 --> 01:03:41.030
not negotiated with other people. We carry those

01:03:41.030 --> 01:03:45.230
inside of our hearts. I know who I am. I'm clear

01:03:45.230 --> 01:03:48.090
about that. And I'm not going to negotiate that

01:03:48.090 --> 01:03:52.170
with you. Because then I might fit in for you,

01:03:52.190 --> 01:03:55.389
but I no longer belong to myself. And that is

01:03:55.389 --> 01:03:57.889
a betrayal that I'm not willing to do anymore.

01:03:58.570 --> 01:04:01.710
So there's this aspect of, yes, betrayal has

01:04:01.710 --> 01:04:03.869
happened to us, but we do not need to continue

01:04:03.869 --> 01:04:06.949
to perpetuate that within ourselves by negotiating

01:04:06.949 --> 01:04:12.329
who we are in this season of life. We can stand

01:04:12.329 --> 01:04:15.570
firm in who we are. There's an element of in

01:04:15.570 --> 01:04:17.909
this process when we're trying to fix our marriage

01:04:17.909 --> 01:04:20.789
that sometimes we lose sight of that. And so

01:04:20.789 --> 01:04:24.019
let's not... shift towards betraying ourselves

01:04:24.019 --> 01:04:27.039
but really press into what god has for that so

01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:30.840
thank you stacy for that hope that when we can't

01:04:30.840 --> 01:04:32.920
carry it ourselves there are people out there

01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:38.619
who can and help us not to abandon who we are

01:04:38.619 --> 01:04:41.559
in this process it's a super important piece

01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:45.559
of post -traumatic moving towards post -traumatic

01:04:45.559 --> 01:04:48.559
growth right it's not abandoning who we are in

01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:51.690
that process Yeah, and one of the takeaways for

01:04:51.690 --> 01:04:54.269
me was that as you were talking, Stacey, about

01:04:54.269 --> 01:04:56.849
the healing of the relationship, the healing

01:04:56.849 --> 01:05:00.630
of your own identity, etc., I was thinking, but

01:05:00.630 --> 01:05:04.449
what if relapse? But what if what I think is

01:05:04.449 --> 01:05:07.550
true isn't true? One of the things I'm so grateful

01:05:07.550 --> 01:05:10.150
for that is a huge measurable is I have identified

01:05:10.150 --> 01:05:13.909
my inner circle. I have women. I have men. I

01:05:13.909 --> 01:05:17.219
have experts. I have people that love me. that

01:05:17.219 --> 01:05:19.500
I can go to, that I can do life with, that will

01:05:19.500 --> 01:05:21.480
carry me through that. Stacey, thank you. This

01:05:21.480 --> 01:05:24.500
has just been a joy -filled, very validating

01:05:24.500 --> 01:05:27.099
conversation and we're so grateful that you joined

01:05:27.099 --> 01:05:30.119
us today. It's been a treat. I love you gals

01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:32.139
so much. It's just been a treat to be on here.

01:05:32.199 --> 01:05:34.420
Thanks for asking me. Absolutely. And we will

01:05:34.420 --> 01:05:36.639
have you back talking about spiritual abuse.

01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:39.679
All right. Friends, thank you for joining us

01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:42.400
on this episode of the Betrayal Recovery Transformation

01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:45.280
Podcast. We sincerely hope you found today's

01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:47.699
discussion insightful, empowering, and uplifting.

01:05:47.900 --> 01:05:50.840
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe,

01:05:51.179 --> 01:05:53.860
rate, and leave a review. This helps other people

01:05:53.860 --> 01:05:56.739
find the healing and help that they deserve and

01:05:56.739 --> 01:05:59.400
need. Your support helps us reach so many other

01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:02.679
people. So until next time, be kind to yourself

01:06:02.679 --> 01:06:26.190
and keep pursuing healing. Please contact Chris

01:06:26.190 --> 01:06:29.530
or Jen for transformative coaching. This episode

01:06:29.530 --> 01:06:31.730
has been brought to you by HealingWithTheHowies

01:06:31.730 --> 01:06:35.090
.com, WatermarkCoach .com, and with the support

01:06:35.090 --> 01:06:36.849
of Pure Life Alliance Ministries.