If you're day one, day two, day three, day four,
after D -Day, you know, you can't see anything
good. Everything's black and white. Let us hold
your hope for you. We've all survived betrayal.
Let us hold on to hope for you. Hello, everyone.
Welcome to the Betrayal Recovery Transformation
Podcast, where we talk about all things betrayal,
all things recovery, and all things transformation.
I'm your host, Chris Rocha, here with my fellow
lover of metaphorical alphabet soup and co -host,
Jen Howey. Hi, Jen. I just looked at the script.
Okay, folks, many of you know that we have a
script of some sort. It says wing woman. Huh?
I changed it up. Yeah, you're keeping me on my
toes, girl. Yeah. Metaphorical alphabet soup.
Because we love, we love a podcast guest with
some letters after her name. And our guest today
has some letters. Yes, she does. Highly certified.
Yeah. You want to introduce our guest, Jen? Yeah.
So Stacey, Stacey Smith is somebody that I met
this year at the Sexual Integrity Leadership
Summit. And Chris, you met her in a different
way, and you can share about that. But our guest
is Stacey Smith, and she's the Chief Clinical
Officer and Clinical Therapist at Daring Ventures.
With a personal recovery journey from betrayal
and stinking thinking, Stacey uses her lived
experiences and professional expertise to guide
betrayal partners and those suffering from addiction
toward healing. She's a certified EMDR therapy.
She is certified in EMDR therapy and specializes
in helping people overcome attachment wounds
and shame. Stacey is passionate about creating
a healing partnership with her clients and believes
in the transformative power of therapy. Oh my
goodness, Stacey, welcome to the podcast. Thank
you so much. It's just a great pleasure to be
here with you, the wonderful ladies. Thank you.
We're so tickled. We've been looking forward
to this day because you are a savvy, savvy. therapist
and businesswoman and trainer, APSATS trainer
and all of those things, but you are also a barrel
of monkeys. You are a lot of fun and we just
love your joy. So Stacey, introduce yourself
to our audience a little bit. Let's learn a little
bit about you. I am Chief Clinical Officer for
Daring Ventures. I run a team of counselors.
I also have a betrayal retreat returning to you.
I'm the program director for that through Daring
Ventures, which is fabulous. Let's women come
for a week and have a spa -like experience with
some great trauma therapy and some great group
experience. And just am loving that. I'm recently
married a little over a year ago and just loving
the redemption that comes from that relationship.
It's just a joy. My life is in a really good
place right now. I can tell from your Facebook
pictures and you've got little grandbabies and
you're off on adventures traveling and yeah,
congratulations on your marriage. We're living
life and that's why I am so happy to be talking
about the subject we're talking about today.
Beautiful. I'm so excited to learn from you today
about post -traumatic growth or post -betrayal
growth. So looking forward to this conversation.
Me too. I think a lot of us haven't even heard
of that. Many of us that even started in this
process understood that somewhere inside of us,
we wanted this to be a thing. Turns out it really
is a thing. And here we are going to talk about
that. So Stacey, share with us, what is post
-traumatic growth? And really, where does it
start? Well, It starts when you realize that
there's got to be life after what's happened
to you in betrayal. And I was thinking, Chris,
when you introduced your title, the word transformation
is in it. And that's what we're talking about
is the transformation that happens. And people
might say, oh my gosh, betrayal? What do you
mean transformation? It really is an opportunity
to become a different person. and to transform
what harmed you and what hurt you into something
that's good for you. And, you know, I don't ever
tell a client that on day one when they're coming
into my office and they're falling apart. Oh,
this is going to be great for you because that
would kick me out, right? But what we do know
is we know the secret. We do know that good things
can happen as a result of the work you do and
the experience of betrayal. And so it's a new
normal. It is learning that life goes on after
betrayal because betrayal blinds us so much that
sometimes we don't think there is life after
betrayal. And it's about starting to build your
confidence little bit by little bit, little bit,
one thing at a time. And, you know, for me, it
was fixing things around the house. It was just
starting with something small. and saying you
know oh I can do this and funny thing I went
to my hairdresser this morning and she just lost
her husband from cancer and she's in her 50s
and I said how you doing and she said you know
she said I am doing some things that I didn't
know she told me one story about how you know
she had a water leak and her husband did so much
around the house she didn't know what to do she
goes I figured out how to turn off the water
And at first, I went to panic and thought, I
can't do anything. I can't do anything. And then
she realized, she got the water turned off, and
then she called people for help. And they helped
her financially, and three men showed up and
said, we'll do whatever it takes to help you.
So she learned how to take care of herself and
that she could survive something like that and
that she could ask for help and receive help.
And another example that she gave me, I said,
I'm going to talk about that today on the podcast
that I'm on, because it's the same sort of a
thing. It's coming back from what you think has
been taken from you. Like you just can't take
another step. And that's what it feels like when
you're in the middle of betrayal. But she also
said that she had to go get an oil change. And
I happen to know she's scared of driving, but
she also was going to go to the car dealership
that her husband worked. And she was like, I
am avoiding this and avoiding this for so many
thousands of reasons. And she got there. She
got the oil change and she bawled and she was
miserable. And it was, you know, she thought
he should be here and she's feeling all the feels.
And her mother told her when she got home, you
did it. And she was like, no, I was a wreck and
I was miserable. And she said, but you did it.
And she said after a few days, she realized,
you know what? I did do that. And that was a
big deal. And so in the beginning, it's really
little things. It's really little things. Also,
traveling was one thing for me. I had never traveled
by myself with kids or without kids. And so it
was like, oh, maybe I can go here, which was
a little bit of excitement, adventure. Like,
oh, you know, life can be different now. And
so it's always little scary things. But, you
know, for my daughter, we took a trip to a little
amusement park where my son, my son was in school.
And I said, we can go here. I don't have to ask
anybody else for permission. Now, some people
don't end up single like I did in my story, but
still discovering a whole new way of building
confidence in yourself. You can do that when
you're married, too. Yes. And sometimes it's
just making a choice. Making a choice that you
can have choices because betrayal sometimes makes
you feel helpless and powerless like you have
no choices. So sometimes it's just one little
choice at a time. I think sometimes we forget
that we even have choices. Absolutely. Because
it feels like everything's been ripped away.
All your aces that you had in your hand, they've
been ripped away. And now you're left with this
crappy hand of cards that... that I can't play
any of these. And the reality is we do have choices.
There are little things that we can do to, even
while staying in the marriage or staying in the
home or while we're trying to decide what to
do, there are these little tiny things when we
identify our needs and speak those needs and
then start to draw boundaries around those needs,
you know, that help us really start to activate
that part of us that's like, oh, okay, I'm not
powerless here. There's something I can do. We
might not like the choices we have. That's the
problem. Some people go, there is no choice.
And it's like, yeah, there is. You just don't
like the choice you have to make. Like, maybe
I have to go back to work. Yeah. Or I choose
not have to, but choose to go back to work if
I want to live in a certain lifestyle or if I
want to be self -sufficient, even if I am staying
in my marriage. But we don't like the choices,
so we don't feel like we have any choices. And
also, there's that part about breaking routine.
You know, when we get into that comfortable,
like, this is how my husband and I did it. And
this was how we spent our weeknights. And this
is what we did on the weekend. And, you know,
that was protected space. But there's that routine.
And so having the landscape napalmed by betrayal.
And then having to create a space for safety.
I remember in the beginning stage for me, my
therapist said, what are your hobbies? And I
was like, I don't have hobbies. Being a mom,
that's what I always have done. Being married
is my hobby. Right. Yeah. And I found out that
I had so buried myself into my husband's identity
or the roles that I had under the roof of my
home that I hadn't invested. or investigated
who I was or what I wanted to do. So even those
little micro things of like, I think I'm going
to take a watercolor class. Or I think, I've
always said I can't garden, but what if I can?
Maybe I'll try that. So having those little micro
choices or those little, like I love what you
said about, you know, oh, just going to the airport
and traveling alone or being able to say, I can
do this. I'm making the choice to do this. You
know what? Guess what, ladies? We can do that
even if we're married. That's right. We can go
travel alone. We can make these choices as well.
You know, one of the things that you talk about,
Stacey, I've heard you mention is grit. So talk
to us about how to develop grit. What is it,
first of all, and how does it help us recover
or get through this post -betrayal situation
into a growth state? Right. The definition for
grit that I like is unyielding courage in the
face of hardship. So it doesn't say... don't
do it scared it says just have the courage to
do it you know and in the face of something difficult
so I use an acrostic that I I wrote a book on
single parenting it's called understanding and
loving your child as a single parent and co -authored
it co -authored it with Steve Arterburn and I
use an acrostic in there called empower and so
Grit comes from these elements in my mind. Embracing
change. We're doing this personality assessment
thing for a team building here at Daring Ventures
and I found out that I'm a nurturer and I don't
like change. And I'm like, wait a minute, I thought
I did. But maybe that's why it was so hard in
my journey to embrace change. Like you said,
the habits, you said it so well, Chris, we are
so used to routine and habits. This is the way
we've done things. This is the way for so long.
And by the way, women cry when I ask them that
question, what are your hobbies? They're like,
or who do you have to talk to? Like who's in
your support system when there's nothing there?
So back to that, but embracing change. and saying,
you know, I'm going to yield to the process.
Acceptance is yielding to the process, even if
we don't like it. Acceptance doesn't necessarily
mean approval, but life can be different than
you think it could be. So the next one in empower
is movement. Dr. Jake Porter always says we're
never stuck. We're always moving in one direction
or the other. So doing the next right thing,
is it detrimental to me or is it positive? We're
really never stuck. We're always going one way
or another. So just taking the next step, doing
the next right thing, breaking it down, because
sometimes it can be overwhelming. How am I ever
going to trust this man again? How am I ever
going to have sex with him again? embrace it
one little bitty thing at a time. Let's talk
about maybe, you know, being in the same room
with him, you know, just one little bit at a
time. The next one is the P and it's thinking
in a more positive direction. You know, ask yourself,
am I a positive thinker or do I come from a victim
mindset? We have been victimized by betrayal,
but we don't have to stay in that mindset. If
you find yourself saying things like, I can't,
it's not my fault, I can't do it, it's someone
else's responsibility, I can't do it, the opposite
is I can. I can make choices. I can take responsibility.
I can choose this. I can choose that. The next
one is own your life. The O is own your life.
So, this is so funny. In the middle of my betrayal,
I always tell this story. I was driving down
the street one day, and you know those road signs
that they can program with lights to say whatever
is next that's very specific, right? I swear
to y 'all, it said, this is your light. Wow.
This is your light. Because I kept saying, but
God, him. But God, him. He, if he would just,
okay, he, he, he, he, he. And God put literally
a road sign saying, this is your life. And I
was like, I have chills. Gosh, okay. And I realized
that I was not, when I got to heaven, I wasn't
going to have a t -shirt on that said, I'm with
stupid. Like, this was my life. This is what
I had to answer for, which meant. My speech,
my attitude, my choices, it involved so much.
Yeah. Can I just pop in there? Own your life.
I remember talking with a coworker. I have two
daughters and they were in high school and there
was something so stressful going on in their
lives. And Mama Bear came out in me. And I later
have learned that I just I want to fix it. I
need everybody else to be happy so that I can
be happy. If they're not at peace, then I'm not
at peace. And I need to get all my ducks in a
row, all the little ducklings, right? And yeah,
otherwise, yeah, it is a boundary issue. I've
learned. I've learned since then. But I remember
my coworkers, I was discussing this situation
with my daughters and like they weren't in any
trouble. I was just wanting to help them out
of a difficult situation. She said, you can't
change their reality. Essentially, this is their
life. These are the cards they've been dealt
and you've got to just support them while they
learn how to figure that out. And I took that
into my own heart, in my own mind, and just thought,
gosh, this is my reality. So I can't change it.
I can't wish it away. No one's going to fix it
for me. So what do I need to do? I love the conciseness
of that statement, own your life. Basically,
own your reality. Stop putting energy into wishing
it was the way it used to be or wishing I had
what so -and -so had. Instead, this is it. So
what are you going to do about it? What are you
going to do within it? It is so hard. So scary.
I can't tell you how many times I've sat in that
corner of my couch and said it wasn't supposed
to be this way. It was not supposed to be this
way. And talking to God about that, God's like,
you're right. This is not, this was not my best
for you. And here we are. And here we are. We
are still here in this position. So what are
we going to do next? But I also know that for
me, while cognitively I understood that my marriage
was not my life, there was still this element
of feeling like the status of my marriage, being
in limbo, was occupying my life. It was occupying
my thoughts. It was occupying my next step. It
was occupying the way I behaved, the way... I
engaged in all of my relationships as I was waiting
in this perpetual, how will this turn out? That
also is not living, you know? And so it's really
difficult to really conceptualize this concept
of what is our life? And it's exactly what you
just said, Stacey. It's what are you going to
do now? What are you going to do today? What
step are you willing to take? To move towards
something. Chris, I love that you, I think you
said, I wrote it down. I buried myself in the
roles I played under my roof. What other roles
are there in my life? There's more to me than
this marriage, you know? And I think you have
to go through a lot of grief to get to the place
of letting it go and accepting the new normal.
And I did. I had to because I couldn't define
myself that way anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So just
to get us back on track, we've got empower, embrace
change, movement, positive mentality or mindset,
own your life. And then Stacey, what's the W?
The W is welcome power. Yes, please. How scary
is that? I mean, sometimes it's scary, but it's
the power to choose what I want. And that can
be scary. You know, a lot of people. Not every
betrayed partner has a dysfunctional family of
origin, but sometimes I run into partners who
don't know how to make decisions or have power.
It scares them because two things. One, they
were given too much responsibility as a child.
and they were responsible for things that they
should never have been and felt very incapable
as a result. So, like, I remember one client
sticks out in my mind. She was seven years old
and was in charge of her four -year -old brother,
and he ran out into the street, and she got in
trouble because he almost got hit by a car. I
mean, imagine the powerless helplessness. And
so that kind of person isn't going to welcome
power because power is scary to them, right?
The other people are people that have been betrayed
partners or their parents helicopter parented
them. And so they never knew how to come into
their own because they never had to make a decision
for themselves. So it's really scary. They don't
know how to trust themselves. They're inside
gut and to like fail and it'd be okay. So some
people are really scared of power and it's just
a foreign, foreign object. But I help them start
small. start small in those kinds of things.
Stacey, as your clinician as well, a therapist,
right? So do you find that it, I've always thought
that that inner voice, that gut that we have,
that feeling that, you know, again, inner voice
is something that we're born with. I've never
thought about the development of that. As a therapist,
do you find that family of origin situations
or traumas or whatever will impede? The development
of that? Okay. All the time. I was working with
a lady yesterday, and she said to me, my mom
used to say, I'm the only one you can trust.
And she said, well, what I'm figuring out now
is she's the only one I can't trust. Not the
only one, but she says, I can't trust my mom.
So she's saying one thing, yet my sense says
something else. And the truth is, I really could
trust my dad. He was my protector. He was my
safe person. How do I trust my sense of self
when mom says this over and over and over and
over again? So again, it's eroded her sense of
self and belief in herself and her voice. And
we may not realize that. When I was 19, my boyfriend
at the time had come home from the military and
I was getting my nails done. We were going to
go on a date. It was New Year's Eve. And this
is back in the day when there were no cell phones,
there's no texting or anything like that. And
I get a phone call at the nail place. And everyone's
looking around like what kind of client gets
a phone call, you know, at these nail places.
And so they hand the phone to me and my mom proceeds
to tell me that he was going to propose to me.
And she wanted me to know this in advance because
she was afraid that I would say no. Oh. And so
I knew that whole night, you know, just kind
of going through the process of watching him
be all nervous and all that. It was kind of fun.
It wasn't until years later, really until my
recovery and my second marriage, that I really
realized the impact that my mom had had on my
life in teaching me not to trust my gut. That
was one example. Like, I wouldn't have told you
that I didn't trust my gut. People always told
me I had great instincts. But what I grew up
with and didn't know until therapy. was how much
my mom had influenced and had essentially passively
told me that I don't have the ability to make
good decisions on my own or to make best decisions
on my own. So therefore, I must listen to her
or others. And so for so long of my life, and
Chris, you know this about me because we've been
friends for a very long time, I need a committee
to make a decision. Almost always. And I hate
that about myself because I'm intelligent. But
at the same time, when it's been so embedded
in you, so if you're a woman listening to this
podcast, if you're a man listening to this podcast,
welcome. But if you're anyone listening to this
podcast, if you find yourself continually going
to others to help you make a decision, that's
a great opportunity to hit pause and really consider.
your family of origin? And are you acting in
an empowered way when you are continually needing
an audience to help you make a decision, even
if it's good, trusted people? The Lord has gifted
you with his Holy Spirit if you are a believer.
And if you're not a believer, hey, let's talk
about that. But we do have the ability to make
these decisions for ourselves. And sometimes
we need to grow into it when it hasn't been nurtured.
Yes, so true. So true. Yeah. Thank you for sharing,
Jen. Okay. Welcome, Power. What's the E? E is
elect a choice. Make a choice. Just make one.
Just make it happen. So we're resolving to choose
something. And maybe it's a small thing. But
some people, choices are scary and hard. And
so we fear failure. A lot of times we fear failure.
And making choices means you might make a wrong
choice, but it's empowering to make choices even
if they are wrong because you will recover from
them. And the last one is R, I already said it,
resolve to choose. So just resolving to do that.
And again, I have a picture that my clients have
given me is on my walls and they are so meaningful.
And this lady many years ago, I was very depressed,
and I asked her. I was a practicum student. I
wasn't even an intern yet. And I was counseling
as part of my schooling. And I said, who were
you before someone took it away from you? And
she said, oh, I liked art. And I said, okay,
well, I want you to start getting back, you know,
again, what's your hobby? You know, and she got
back to painting. But she said to me before that,
she said, I can't afford to paint. She said,
canvases are expensive. I don't have any space
for it. She was finding all the reasons she couldn't,
kind of some victim thinking. And I said, I want
you to paint over all your old canvases and just
put it up in your kitchen, find a way. And she
did. And so she gave me this beautiful piece
of art that's sort of looking at it right now.
It looks like stripes of green and yellow, kind
of a sunset, sunrise kind of picture. And so
I said, this is going to be the first thing for
my counseling office when I get it. And so I
went and I put it in my window at my office,
my first office. And all of a sudden, Jesus came
through. There was a picture of Jesus behind.
Wow. And I was like, what in the world? I called
her and I said, what in the world is this? How
did you do this? And she said, what are you talking
about? And I said, there's Jesus in my picture.
And she said, what do you mean? And she goes,
oh, I painted over an old picture of Jesus that
I didn't like. So when a client is struggling
with. Fear of failure and making choices because
they're scared they're going to mess up. I go
and I get that off the wall and I hold it up
and they gasp because it's like finding Jesus
in your toast. You know, there's people that,
you know, it's a shrine or whatever. Potato chips.
Yes. Yeah, exactly. And. And I say, you know,
I talk about that verse that says. We're like
fragile clay jars. And when we're flawed and
fragile, Jesus can shine through. But when we're
like a terracotta pot and we got this and we
can do okay, he doesn't get the chance to shine
through us. But it is such a risk and it is so
scary. So that's for all my perfectionists and
all the perfectionist listeners out there. You've
got to send us a picture of that painting, if
you would. And I will either use it in the social
media or find a way to link it in the show notes.
But I would love to see that. You too, Jen, right?
Yeah, absolutely. That's a great story. Stacey,
so as we're looking at this acronym, what are
some of the shifts that can happen in betrayal
trauma that can lead us to some of that post
-traumatic growth? Well. priority shift. Like
we were saying earlier, you know, I focused so
much on my kids and who they were, my marriage.
All of a sudden, it's like, you know, maybe I
don't need to be on the PTA team. You know, a
lot of people come in, they're just, they don't
have time for therapy, they don't have time to
do this. They're traumatized, completely traumatized,
and they're trying to hang on to all the offices
they hold and all the things they say yes to,
and I have to tell them, hold up. What would
happen if you just said no to being PTA president
or whatever it is? But maybe what is most important
is spending time with kids. So they start to
see that these habits or things they've been
used to may not be what serves them well, and
that's okay. So I'm going to shift from being
a volunteer at school to spending more time with
kids. Sometimes we reevaluate our goals. What
is it I want in life? Maybe I haven't thought
about who I truly want to be in life. We do a
lot of work on value systems. You know, like
we do this at our retreat. Like, what do you
want your future to look like? If you were to
draw it, what do you want it to include? What
do you want it to look like? And it can look
radically different than you thought it was going
to be. One of the shifts that I call people to
in couple therapy and couple work is protecting
the relationship. We call it a couple bubble.
Protecting the couple bubble. And I'll tell you,
that's a hard sell to some people early on, but
it's truly what they want. They want a good marriage
where we tell the truth to each other, where
what's good for the relationship is what's good
for me. And so priorities have to shift. Goals
have to shift. So there are a lot of things that
will change and grow as we go into this post
-traumatic growth. Also, our purpose. And my
favorite moment in therapy is... When a client
is sitting on my couch and they look at me and
they go, okay, I'm ready to give back. I'm ready
to start a support group at church. I've got
to tell somebody about this. And that's really
the 12th step. It's carrying the message to others.
And some people go like, okay, all of us, y 'all,
who wanted this to be in this field? Who wanted
a podcast on betrayal, right? No, thanks. Yeah,
we did not sign up. No one's raising their hands.
Okay, y 'all, I was on jury duty the other day,
and they asked, you know, during war dire, they
asked, like, does anybody advocate for addicts?
And I'm like, oh, crap, should I say this? And
I'm like, I'm a therapist, and I work with addicts.
And they go, okay, drug addicts? And I go, no.
And they said, what kind? And I said, sex addiction.
And the whole courtroom of 60 people burst out
in laughter. Really? you don't pick this as a
thing, but you had to be, I had to be truthful,
right? I swore that I would tell the whole truth,
right? Did you tell them the statistics of how
many of them were probably in the room? Seriously?
No, but like people came up to me afterwards
and were telling me stories. I'll tell you that.
Wow. But we don't pick this. It picks us. And
the only good that I can find, and there is a
lot of good I can find, is the good that we're
doing, that we're giving back, we're educating
people, we're telling people. So that's a huge
shift, I'd say. Boy, is it. Yeah, make your mess
your message. Yeah, I love that. What would you
say, Stacey, to the woman who is afraid of growing?
As an individual, I was just talking with a gal
the other day who was so afraid and felt disloyal
to her to grow past her husband or to grow without
her husband. And her husband is not identifying
that he has a problem. He's blame shifting. He's
minimizing. It's the, you know, every guy does
this kind of thing. And she's in pain. So she
wants to grow, but she's afraid to grow without
him because she feels like she's being disloyal.
She said, I feel like that will make us unequally
yoked. What would you say to that woman? What
if it does? What if it does? Because I remember
like all of a sudden looking in the mirror and
it's when I finally started working. I went back
and got my graduate degree and I looked in the
mirror and he was being so abusive. It was psychological
abuse. And I just said, you're too much for him.
I mean, I just looked right at myself in the
mirror. And he's intimidated by that. But my
mom used to say it was like he had a butterfly
in his hand and just crushed it. So, you know,
what I had to understand with my faith background
is that God did want me to be that butterfly.
He did want me to soar. And that that wasn't
being disloyal to my marriage. That I had a duty
to God because of everything that he had done
for me to be the person. And that's this person
today. Back then, I couldn't see it. That person
was so downtrodden. She was such a martyr. She
was such a mess. And this is what he wanted to
see me do. And that's not being disloyal to be
the best person that you can be. In fact, your
partner should want that for you. And when I
say should, that's a hard word. But if he can't
tolerate that, then what are you going to do?
What are you going to do? You have choices to
make in the marriage. It's a good question. What
I shared with her was that oftentimes, and I'll
never forget, on D -Day, I was at Dan and Jen
Howey's house. And I remember Dan telling me
that it was Jen's growth. It was Jen moving toward
her healing and the changes he was seeing in
her that got him to move. And that's where I
think, you know, one of the things I share with
women is that these are our husbands. Yes, they're
also, you know, if we're believers, they're also
our brothers in Christ. And we're part of the
body of Christ. And there is that iron sharpening
iron aspect to this relationship. And maybe it
was something that God told me throughout my
healing process was that part of my calling or
part of my purpose, as we're talking about. a
priority you know purpose shift is um is to be
here with my husband while he while he grew while
god worked in his life and sometimes to stand
by but sometimes to maybe carry the load a little
bit more and move forward because as we heal
it's got to change the dance steps it absolutely
if you're playing tug of war with someone and
you let go of the rope it changes the dynamic
so yeah yes Yeah, thank you for answering that
quick side question there. So how does post -betrayal
growth affect our spiritual growth, Stacey? Because
I know for me, the roots went deep. The roots
went deep. I feel like prior to this, I was baptized
when I was eight. I've been a person of faith
for a long, long time. But I felt like I had
a really pretty tree, lots of great leaves, but
my roots weren't very deep. It was the adversity
of betrayal and then having to dig into my family
of origin, the baggage I brought into this relationship
or even outside of the relationship, just who
I was needed some healing. And God used this
opportunity. And I'm thankful that I did own
my life and I did welcome the power, a shift.
And the roots have gone deep and they're still
going deep. And I'm so grateful for that. Yeah.
How does this affect? I know for me, it, it,
it, it, whoa, I don't even have words for it
to quantify it, but it, it woke me up and changed
me on a molecular level, I feel like. And, and
for me, God was oxygen. My reliance upon God,
he was the firm foundation. He was the one thing
that I could count on. And I knew that I knew
that I knew that was solid ground. And so. That's
where my faith grew. That's where everything
changed is. And even today, as I get into these
routines with my new husband and we are just
like, I love you more every day and we feel it
and we experience all these amazing things together
in our growth together. I get a little panicky
and go, I'm getting used to him. I'm getting
used to him being there. I'm getting used to
him being in bed next to me. But then I say.
Lord, you're above all this and you're what I
really need. And I, and I just surrender my sweet
John to you and what we have. And I'm so grateful
for it today, but I know that I'd be okay without
it. Boy. Yeah. Yeah. But so in betrayal and injustice
occurs, it's a true injustice and maybe even
abuse. And so. As a Christian, we say, okay,
how do we respond to abuse? How do we respond
when somebody wrongs me? So some of the things
that I misunderstood is I thought I should be
silent. Just be like Jesus, just silent before
his accusers, right? And I zipped my lips because
that's what the word said. Win him over without
a word. And I tried that. I did that, right?
You know, and then we ask ourselves, should I
respond like Paul did? You know, and he just
robustly defended himself. But there is no simple
answer like that. I tried everything. I tried
to be quiet. You know, my attachment style probably
went all over the quadrants because I was just
trying desperately for something to work, right?
But this is when prayer becomes your lifeline.
Again, surrender, I use that word a lot because
that's what it is, is just giving it to God,
surrendering to him, to bring your cause before
him, to voice that out of this isn't fair. You
know, if you read so many of the Psalms, this
isn't fair. My oppressors are there and I had
to. make my husband an oppressor in my mind in
order to detach from him. I had to do that. And
to just say, give me wisdom and give me justice,
Lord, because this isn't so unfair. So when I
allowed God to meet me there, my soul became
settled. And sometimes we want to just be still
and be quiet about it and push it away. And that
would be a travesty to not talk to God about
it. He's there. He understands. He gets it. But
I would get a sense of, and he could give you
a deep assurance of his love and his presence
and knowing that in time, he'll set everything
right. He'll set everything straight. And I'm
a testament to that. And I thought that might
be a marriage, right? But it wasn't. It was my
life. I know that God gave me a reign of promise
that said, he who began a good work in you, being
confident of this, he who began a good work in
you will be faithful to complete it. I thought
that was about my marriage. And I had somebody
say, that's about you, honey. And I went, no,
it's not. You know, you can't tell me what God
told me, but you know. Yeah. Hang on to what
we can hang on to. But understanding spiritual
growth and so much of that, we have to let go
of some of the anger. Romans 12, 19 says, Beloved,
never avenge yourselves, but leave the wrath
to God, for it's written, vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord. You know, there's
some people who have a very overactive part of
their brain that says, this is just not right,
and I won't rest because it's not right. And
that is truly something we have to leave and
surrender to God, the injustice of it all. It
is an important stage to grieve. But it is just
so hard to just finally say, okay, I let it go.
I don't understand it. I don't get it. And I
give it to you. Yeah, that's good. In my first
marriage, I did that pretty well. His stuff was
top of the news, so it was very public. And so
I will admit it was a little bit easier because
of that. But in my second marriage, that's when
I came to a crisis of faith. My spiritual growth,
I had gone from having solid faith to really
wanting, really trying to determine whether or
not God was real. Because if he was real, why
would he put my kids through another potential
losing a father, right? And so I had reconciled
that maybe God wasn't real. But if he was real,
he was cruel. And why would he let me go through
this type of suffering again? Why would he let
my kids go through this type of suffering again?
And so then I had to try to determine, do I even
want to serve a God like that? That is a cruel
God, the kind of God that keeps you under his
thumb or constantly sends you to this emotional
emergency room. where you can rely on him and
feel comforted. I didn't want, I was not interested
in a God who would put me through suffering just
so that I could rely on him. Like, can you like
meet me in a happier place where I can experience
you that way? Because this version of you, God,
I didn't like. I had this whole wrestling. And
I don't want to say it was a deconstruction of
faith because that word has its own connotations
in today's society. But I will say that there
was a necessary deconstruction of faith that
was taking place. We know that thoughts and beliefs
create emotions that drive behavior. And so there
was an entire belief system behind who I believed
God to be and what he would do in my life that
I had to wrestle through. And then eventually,
I remember I was in a group setting and I told
this woman, actually the entire group this, and
she looked at me with so much compassion in her
eyes. and said, I'm going to pray for you. And
I remember thinking, oh, all right, sister, you
just go ahead and do that. Because, yeah, apparently
you've got a good relationship with God. So you
just talk to your God about all these things
and pray for me. All right. Well, now my youngest
son at the time who I'd been very concerned about
is a pastor. And he's a pastor of prayer and
outreach. And she is on his prayer team. And
every time I see her, let me just tell you, first
of all, I'm very in love with Jesus. But I had
to go through a reconciling to get to that point.
to understand who he was. And now I see this
woman who my son, who she had been praying for,
you know, back when he was just a child, was
now over her and mentoring her in her own prayer
life. She had prayed for me and it changed my
life. It changed my life to have someone who
cared that much about my spiritual growth. And
so if you're out there and you're struggling
in your faith, It's okay. That's okay. As a matter
of fact, it might actually be a really, really
great thing because God wants to reveal himself
to you. That song, Pieces, man, when I got to
a point where I was like, I'm so tired of my
husband not being able to fully give himself
to me. I'm so tired of the emotional withholding
and the lack of surrender. I'm so sick of these
things. When I started to realize, that Jesus
actually encompassed everything I've ever wanted
in a husband, I was like, oh my gosh, this dude
Jesus is amazing. Mindset shift. So want to be
in love with this guy. That is one of my favorite
songs. I love it. It is so good. It is so good.
And I just, once I realized that, I was like,
no one compares to Jesus. And then my appetite.
For that type of connection started to shift
toward him instead of my husband. And let me
just tell you, that changed everything. So healthy.
I just want to interject. And I know before Friends
pre -roll, we were talking about how we try to
keep the podcast to 45 minutes to maybe 60. And
I don't think we're going to meet that mark.
And that's OK, because this is a great conversation.
But Jen, as you were talking, we're going to
have the gentleman that taught me this on in.
in a month or so, Pastor Paul Goulet, he taught
me in Bible college about God concepts. And as
you were talking, Jen, you were describing the
cruel chess player. So in a quick nutshell, there
are four main wrong concepts of God that we develop
usually through our fathers, but it can be through
our mothers if they're the primary caretaker.
um, or other, uh, authority figures. But the
first one is Zeus that God is sitting up in the
heavens, just waiting to throw a lightning bolt
at us when we mess up. Uh, he's just, he's the
punisher basically. And the next one is, uh,
the one you were describing, Jen, is the, the,
the cruel chess player that we're just pawns
on a board game. And he's just moving us around
to his, you know, board delight. He's a little
sadistic. And he doesn't care about the outcome.
It's almost like he's doing some cosmic experiment.
Like we're lab rats. If I put her here and her
kids here, what's going to happen? OK, now what
happens if I double up the trauma? You know what?
Now what's going to happen to them? Angels gather
around. Let's watch. You know, it's going to
be fun. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another one
is the absentee landlord that he created all
of this, this world, these people, these animals.
He just kind of threw us all down here and then
took off in the cosmos for some, you know. vacation.
We don't know if he's ever coming back. He's
just gone. And he just left us here to figure
it out for ourselves. And then the one I struggled
with is the harsh ruler. And that one was because
I grew up in a family system that was very image
oriented and results oriented. So that one says
that if you don't measure up to God's standards,
then he's going to reject you. And it's a very
works -based faith. too, that you have to be
the good girl. You've got to be the good guy,
you know, and if you don't, if you fail, if you
screw up, God's going to cross his arms and turn
his back on you. And so just to wrap up this
little section of how post -betrayal growth affects
our spiritual walk. Again, we'll go into this
deeper with Paul in the future, but Lord willing,
but 1 Corinthians 13 verses 4 through verse 8.
is God's resume. That is who he actually is.
And where it says love or charity in your Bible,
you can replace that with God. So God is patient.
God is kind. God is slow to anger. You know,
God never fails. God doesn't keep record of wrongs.
That's who he really is. And so reconciling that
in the midst of this betrayal trauma can be mental
gymnastics for sure. But God is patient in that
with us, right, Stacey? Yes, yes. And we could
talk, I mean, this subject, I've done many a
podcast on spiritual trauma, spiritual abuse,
spiritual everything, including Sills at Sexual
Integrity Leadership Summit. And there's so much
here. And I just say to the listeners, work through
it with someone that's healthy and can help you
walk through your anger, your questions, all
of that about God, and he can take it. Okay.
Well, that's just an invite back then, Stacey.
We're going to have you back to talk about that.
I'm making a note right now. Okay. All right.
So Stacey, you know, here we are talking about
all of this post -traumatic growth and you kind
of spoke of new opportunities that open up after
surviving betrayal trauma. That can be scary.
That's a scary, like, well, new opportunities.
Do I really want them? Because I just really
want what I have right now to heal. Talk to us
a little bit about that. Are there really new
opportunities? What does that mean? What does
that look like? Well, you know, we've talked
about a few of them, like family of origin work.
I mean, of like, it's painful, the chiseling,
like you were just talking about, Jen. I didn't
want to go through this so I could become closer
to God. But yet now, you know, the gift that
it gave you. And we don't, we usually get that
through adversity. And so. Looking and understanding
where we came from, it's an opportunity to go
to some of those places. Again, I don't want
to pathologize betrayed partners. Not everyone
has family of origin issues. But Lord, we live
in a world where we can get trauma very easily
from a lot of sources. And so getting the opportunity
to look at that stuff. Attachment. I mean...
What a great gift it is to all of a sudden understand
how we become attached and what secure attachment
looks like. That's been such a gift for me to
be able to understand relationships in terms
of attachment and how people attach and when
an attachment rupture happens, how devastating
it is, how it blows your life up, like you said,
Napalm. And so the opportunities that open up
is, man, we can get You know, we ask couples
all the time, we can get better than before.
Would you ever want to go to this reality? You
know, we talk to them about the reality before
betrayal. And they're sitting here asking, like,
how can I reconcile having children and all this
while he was acting out this entire time? And
now that I know what I know about that acting
out, but we always ask them, would you go back
to that couple before betrayal? And they say,
nope, nope. So this is an opportunity to become
a deeper, richer, closer couple, or in my case,
a deeper, richer, fuller, healthier individual,
right? But we don't know which way it's going
to go. But when we do our own work, we start
to get there. And that's definitely an opportunity
for me. It was an opportunity I never spoke up.
Like I told you, I didn't feel like it was my
ground to stand up, my place to stand up. And
I learned that that was mistruth that I had learned
along the way. So there was an opportunity to
use my voice. And one of my core values now is
boldness. And I have to have it. Managing this
team here, you know, they want me to be a leader.
They don't want me to just sit back and shrink
down. You know, it's challenging for me. to be
bold and do the hard thing, but it's an opportunity
for growth. You know, if we're not growing, we're
dying. I mean, recovery is a lifelong process
and I love the process. And of course, empowerment,
you know, just being able to be the person that
God created me to be. And it wouldn't be if I
hadn't gone through the hard stuff. And resilience
is just such a great word. Resilience, the word
to me means taking us back to the shape we were
before. I always try to say, like, maybe even
better than before. And usually that's what I
find with people I work with, that they are better
than before. One of the ways that we can measure
resilience, and we do measure it with betrayed
partners on the IPAST, it's an assessment, and
it's the Inventory for Partner Attachment Stress
and Trauma. And it's made specifically for partners
of sex addicts. And we ask them these questions.
I feel I am an emotionally stronger person because
of my experiences. Yes or no? My relationships
with others have deepened and become more meaningful.
Yes or no? I believe there are positive things
that will come out of learning about my partner's
sexually acting out behaviors. I am better to
adapt to challenging situations. Better able
to adapt to challenging situations. I have more
confidence in myself now because of what I've
experienced. I want to take this assessment.
Isn't it great? Yes. I'm just going, yes, yes,
check, check, check. Find it easier to find humor
and enjoy life now that I know what's going on
with my partner. So I know really quickly whether
a person is resilient. That helps me. And if
not, I help them get there. I help them move
into resiliency. The opportunity for resiliency
is a great thing because then you don't fear
what's going to happen. You know, post -traumatic
growth reestablishes the baseline, like the baseline
of like what I want to be. And the bar usually
moves up. I want better. I don't want to go back
to how I was before. I want better. What kind
of behavior will I accept? What is healthy? All
of a sudden, now I have this opportunity. What
is self -love all about? Is that? What did she
say she thought was disloyal to her husband?
Is self -love disloyal? Is it biblical? And so
now, all of a sudden, there's opportunities for
all kinds of things in life that you never thought
of before. And I don't want to say, oh, go out
and get betrayed so all these things can happen
to you. But these are some gifts of what can
happen in good recovery. Go ahead, Jen. You were
going to say something? Oh, girl. Girl, this
is just such a great conversation. It's sparking
so much. That list that you have there needs
to be plastered on so many of our mirrors. It
needs to be plastered on our hearts. Because
for many of us that have been in the process
for years, you know, a lot of us have bought
into this, oh, it's a two to five year process.
Well, here's the truth that some people it's
longer than a five year process. And some people
it's less than two. Yeah, well, good for them.
Happy for that for you. But regardless, that
list, sometimes when we get stuck in the muck
and the mire of the heaviness of this type of
recovery, we lose sight of that list. And so
I had written down, I'm not back there. I'm here.
Look at that list. Look at who I am today. Are
you talking about the assessment questions? Yeah,
the yes, yes. Yes, because we lose sight of that
and the enemy wants to blind us and keep us focused.
It's like smoke and mirrors. It wants to keep
us focused on the parts that are challenging,
forgetting where we were and how far we've come.
And the Lord wants to speak to that. He wants
to shape our identity around that. Look at you.
Look what I've created in you. Look what I've
done in you. Yes, these other things might still
be taking place. but friend sister daughter this
is who you are and this is evidence of me working
in your life and boy that shifts one's thinking
and perspective and it talk about power like
it shifts your power yeah it's supernatural yeah
that's right it's good stuff that's right and
we're vision casters in the work we do where
we have to point this out to them because you
forget You know, you've got blinders on. You've
been going at this two, three years. You forget.
Four years. You forget. I tell couples all the
time, look where you're at. Not very many couples
get here. And being hope givers and being aware
of, yes, how far you've come. We're always focused
on where we're going. But looking at how much
we have accomplished is so important. Okay. I
know. I don't even know how to present this.
I'm one of those weirdos. Yes, you are. I will.
I will. I know. I know. Jen's like, mm -hmm.
I know. 25 years. There's a Z -snap in there.
I saw that. I'm one of those weirdos that my...
Okay. I did this program where I did a bunch
of assessments, found out that I have an incredible
sense of adventure. And... It was something I
thought I needed to apologize for because I thought
it was a coping mechanism that had become a crutch
or a way of life. And when our coping mechanisms
become a way of life, friends, that's dangerous
if it's an unhealthy coping mechanism. But what
I was so grateful for when I took this class
was that my sense of adventure is part of...
who I am. It's something that God created into
my being. And so to circle back, I was one of
those weirdos that when I was going through healing,
after I stopped vibrating from stress, after
my heart calmed down and my blood pressure came
down and I was able to sleep again at night and
I was able to eat again and all of those things,
I kind of started getting into that phase two
of the APSATS model where we're grieving and
we're creating boundaries and there was some
stabilization happening. I saw adventure in this,
and it wasn't about the ick, the hard, the gut
-wrenching, the destructive nature of betrayal.
It was when I shifted away, just like you just
said, Stacey, from what was going on with my
spouse into what's God doing here? How is he
not wasting my pain? And I found that to be such
a grand adventure, and I'm still on it. I feel
like I'm like, do you remember that Stephen Curtis
Chapman song, Saddle Up Your Horses? The great
adventure, right? I got that in my head as I'm
saying that. Talk to us a little bit about how
there's a sense of adventure after trauma. Yeah,
and you can feel it in your body. Yeah. Do you
know that, Chris? It's a little exhilarating.
Oh, yeah, I feel it right here. Where the heaviness
in my chest used to be, now there's an exhilaration
there. Yeah, and it is a resource. It is a resource
of, oh, what could be? Oh, what is possible?
Now I'm hearing Dr. Seuss. Oh, the places you'll
go. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But and that was
for me in the beginning, the places you'll go.
I was still in my marriage and there was a graduate
class that I wanted to take and it was offered
in Athens, Greece. And we were so broke and student
loans out the kazoo I was taking. But I realized
that I could go to Greece and I probably shouldn't
have because I still owe a lot of money today.
But what that did for me, I went to Greece by
myself, not knowing anybody. But I proved to
myself that I could do that. And at that point,
I knew I wanted to stay in my marriage. But I
started building up me and thought, you know
what? You're not doing anything wrong by doing
that. Even walking around the block. My husband
used to say, that neighborhood's not safe don't
go further than this and I thought really I gave
judgment about what's safe or not and I thought
this is he was very controlling so this was something
I could control for myself and it was an adventure
oh I found this new neighborhood oh how about
this oh I went a little further and that was
infectious inside me it was like oh I can do
this and it really built my self -confidence
so from travel to just even trips alone speaking
and work with new life. And I would travel and
speak with them and then spend a couple extra
days in Laguna Beach or a couple extra days in
Washington, D .C. And it was exciting. Like,
maybe I can find the great restaurant. I'm such
a foodie. And, you know, maybe this would be
maybe this would be fun and the greatest beach.
And it was like, you know what? This is what
living life is about. And it felt great. So then.
The ultimate adventure was love, risking again
in love. I just made a sound, sorry. I know.
I know most people do. But people say, after
what you do for a living, how can you even begin
to trust men? And I said, because I knew it was
out there. I knew what I was looking for was
out there, a good, safe, secure relationship.
And I kissed a lot of frogs. But I'll tell you,
dating was an adventure. And I had to learn how
to do it scared. A lot of those things were very
scary for me. The Greece trip, while I was there,
I almost had a panic attack, but I learned how
to deal with it and move past it. I didn't have
any panic attacks in dating, but might as well
have. And so just going forward and anything
is possible. And that's what I want to say. Betrayal
doesn't have to end your life. It can be the
beginning of something amazing and beautiful.
I love how Brené Brown talks about that this
doesn't have to be the ending. And you can write
the ending of your story. Yes. And that just
speaks back to taking your power back or welcoming
that new power that maybe you've never had before.
Right. So I hate to get to the point where we
are starting to close this episode because I
honestly just don't want it to end. There's so
much good conversation that we could have. But
in closing, what is a word of encouragement that
you would like to share with our listeners? Who
would say, let us be your, let us hold your hope
for you. Let us be your hope. Because if you're
day one, day two, day three, day four, after
D -Day, month one, month two, month, year one,
month two, you know, you can't see anything good.
Everything's black and white and everything's
bad. Let us hold on to hope for you. We've all
survived betrayal. And I've watched many, many,
many women and men survive betrayal and have
a much better life afterwards. So just remember
our voices, even if you can't see it right now.
And if you're on the track and you're relating
to what we're saying and you're feeling it inside
and you're just wanting to dance, you go girl.
That's what I want to say is just keep doing,
taking, doing the next right thing and taking
the next step because. recovery is in your hands
and you can be which one to be. I love what you
just said there. Do the next right thing. My
dad used to say, inch by inch, everything's a
cinch. And how do you eat an elephant? One bite
at a time. And betrayal, that napalming, your
life can be so overwhelming. So overwhelming.
And friend, if you're there, I love what you
said, Stacey. We will hold hope for you. In the
meantime, you just keep doing that next right
thing. Get out of bed. Feed your kids. Take a
shower. Feed yourself. Call a friend. Show up
for work. Just do one thing at a time. But the
day will come where that adventure will be there.
You'll see those measurables. You're going to
see the growth that you've experienced. And you
will laugh again. You will rejoice again. You
will have good things to look forward to again.
Renee Brown said something really cool. I don't
know if it was recent, but I heard it recently.
But she said, our worth and our belonging are
not negotiated with other people. We carry those
inside of our hearts. I know who I am. I'm clear
about that. And I'm not going to negotiate that
with you. Because then I might fit in for you,
but I no longer belong to myself. And that is
a betrayal that I'm not willing to do anymore.
So there's this aspect of, yes, betrayal has
happened to us, but we do not need to continue
to perpetuate that within ourselves by negotiating
who we are in this season of life. We can stand
firm in who we are. There's an element of in
this process when we're trying to fix our marriage
that sometimes we lose sight of that. And so
let's not... shift towards betraying ourselves
but really press into what god has for that so
thank you stacy for that hope that when we can't
carry it ourselves there are people out there
who can and help us not to abandon who we are
in this process it's a super important piece
of post -traumatic moving towards post -traumatic
growth right it's not abandoning who we are in
that process Yeah, and one of the takeaways for
me was that as you were talking, Stacey, about
the healing of the relationship, the healing
of your own identity, etc., I was thinking, but
what if relapse? But what if what I think is
true isn't true? One of the things I'm so grateful
for that is a huge measurable is I have identified
my inner circle. I have women. I have men. I
have experts. I have people that love me. that
I can go to, that I can do life with, that will
carry me through that. Stacey, thank you. This
has just been a joy -filled, very validating
conversation and we're so grateful that you joined
us today. It's been a treat. I love you gals
so much. It's just been a treat to be on here.
Thanks for asking me. Absolutely. And we will
have you back talking about spiritual abuse.
All right. Friends, thank you for joining us
on this episode of the Betrayal Recovery Transformation
Podcast. We sincerely hope you found today's
discussion insightful, empowering, and uplifting.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe,
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and keep pursuing healing. Please contact Chris
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