From the time that we're born or really gestating, we are meant for connection.
We are created as human beings to be delighted in and connected to or attuned to.
And without it, we can't be a human.
I mean, we're made for that.
Relapsement is a distressing event in our life that is distressing enough that we become
so overwhelmed in that moment that we can't digest it.
Even if he's relapsing, digest it.
Can I still feel like the world isn't falling apart?
How do I be resilient to relapse?
And that only comes from examining your sense of self and your own sense of value and worth.
Dear listeners, if you are into trivia, of which no one really cares about, what, Chris,
what was going to be the original name of this podcast?
Oh, that you're making me go back almost a year now.
It starts with the topic that we're talking about today.
Drama.
Uh-huh.
Drama.
Oh, trauma, drama, mamas.
Drama, drama, mamas.
I still have the email.
Okay.
Available, which I do not use.
And I'm quite honestly not even quite sure how to get rid of at this point.
But trauma, drama, mamas was the original name of our podcast that we had talked about,
which I still sort of low key love.
We still have an Instagram for that.
Which at this point probably has about the same amount of content on it as our current
Instagram has.
We're both so...
Actually, you're really good at the Instagram stuff in my mind.
So I give you all the credit for any social media presence that we have.
Oh, thank you.
It's a lot.
So we're learning.
We're learning.
Well, we're not talking about drama and we're not talking about mama.
However, we are talking about trauma today on the podcast with our guest, Debbie Flanagan,
who is a life coach and a clinician at Pure Desire Ministries.
And I was very pleased with the content that we came out with today.
I thought it was very helpful.
What thoughts did you have today?
Oh, I just thought it was so fundamental.
Such a fundamental topic.
We're talking about betrayal trauma.
We're betrayal recovery coaches.
And it was just such a good going back to basics topic and conversation defining what
trauma is, talking about how to recover from it, how to spot it in ourselves.
And some great key takeaways about methods to overcome and heal from trauma.
It was very equipping.
I thought so too.
And a great conversation.
Yeah.
Understanding that trauma really comes from a concept called rupture repair and throwing
that in the context of our recovery journey as well.
I thought it was, I thought Debbie did an excellent job.
She sure did.
And she did mention a couple other topics that she loves to talk about, which is boundary
work and also sex.
So we're going to have her back on probably at least two more times to hear her heart
and her, she's so highly educated and well informed.
And so we're going to definitely have her back a few more times to talk about those
two topics.
So she had some great offerings.
You know, it's just so amazing how there is no arrival.
It really is a journey.
We're always learning.
We're always growing.
We're always adding to, you know, connecting the dots.
Definitely, and today's episode was definitely one of those situations.
Definitely.
So with that, enjoy today's podcast.
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode of the Betrayal Recovery Transformation Podcast.
This is your place to reclaim your life after betrayal.
And I'm your host, Chris Rocha, and I'm here with my dear friend and co-host, Jen Howey.
Hi, Jen.
I think that's the first time you've called me dear friend in your opener.
You know, I try to switch things up a little bit, keep it fresh.
I'll take it.
Hello.
Yes, this is Jen Howey and with my dear friend, Chris Rocha, and with also another dear friend
who is our guest today.
Not only, oh boy, not only is she a dear friend, but she was my very first clinician when Dan
and I were going through our healing process.
So for me, this is kind of a full circle episode.
We are talking- Precious moments.
Yeah.
We were talking about trauma, which I am so grateful to have had our guest, who is Debbie
Flanagan today, on the podcast.
Like I said, she's a clinician, she's a life coach, she's a pastoral sex addiction professional,
and I'll let her fill in a little bit more about how many years that she's had.
I'm not sure, Debbie.
We'll ask this question in just a moment, but I think maybe Dan and I might have been
your first clients or maybe one of your first clients.
I was wondering if I messed you guys up or not.
Well, I don't know.
That remains to be seen.
So with that, Debbie Flanagan, dear friend, cherished clinician, life coach, and professional,
welcome to the podcast.
Could you introduce yourself a little bit more than I did and tell us a little bit about
yourself?
Yes.
So I have been in the healing field and I entered into the healing field through the
area of love addiction very early on in like the 19, probably 1994.
So it's been about 30 years or so that at our church, we started in a healing ministry
world Diane Roberts did.
And that's how far back I go even with the concept of sex and love addiction.
And of course, then women were saying we were incorporating the women because of the betrayal
trauma and these couples wanted to stay together and work it through.
So we were developing and using all the tools.
Thirty years ago, there wasn't a lot of resources for women.
And then of course, you had church, the church was sort of like, well, you just need to work
it out.
We don't want to talk about sex.
We don't want to talk about those things.
So we luckily, I was trained up under people who were comfortable with talking about sex.
So that's how far back I go.
And then later on, I was working at the church and then I my husband, Harry, he he was working
at the church as well.
But when Pastor Ted moved out of the pastorate and into founding the Pure Desire Ministry
as a nonprofit, Harry went with him to counsel there.
And so in our our pattern is to couple, counsel couples together.
And that has been one of our strengths, I think, in this field, because most of, as
you know, a lot of clinicians, a lot of training say you do individual and then you do couples
because it's you know, and we do a fair amount of individual as well.
But for the most part, our client is the couple.
And so we're always constantly working on that.
And I've done the you know, the I was involved with the original CSAT training.
But then but then I got my pastoral license and became a PSAP.
So I don't have that, you know, that four year therapeutic therapy license.
But I have got so many other certifications.
I love coaching.
I love that aspect of asking questions.
And I love getting to know people that way and getting to know what makes them click
and asking them those poignant questions that help them to think through how to how how
what choices can I make?
I love talking about boundaries because a lot of times those are misunderstood.
I love talking about women in sex addiction as well.
I think that's a field that is sort of coming into its coming into a lot of recovery work
for that and recognizing with the betrayal trauma, just really how deep betrayal goes.
It's not just oh, I got betrayed in my marriage.
So when I help and work with women, I like to look a little deeper.
Yeah, thanks, Debbie.
So just to clarify for our listeners, Debbie just referred to Ted and Diane Roberts, who
are the founders of a ministry called Pure Desire International.
They're fantastic.
Jen and I both did our healing work through that ministry.
And so and the ministry was founded or started in a church called East Hill, right in the
Gresham, Oregon area.
So just giving a little context for our listeners.
So today we are going to talk about another one of your favorite topics, Debbie, which
is trauma, trauma in general.
And oh my gosh, that's you know, our our podcast is called the betrayal recovery transformation
podcast.
And it's all things betrayal, all things recovery, all things transformation.
And so the betrayal topic fits right into that first part, the trauma topic fits right
into that first part, because we are betrayal recovery coaches.
All three of us are.
And so let's let's just dive into trauma.
I had an experience recently with someone who said you're a betrayal trauma coach.
That doesn't make sense.
Trauma is something that happens when you go to war.
PTSD is something you you get when you've been in the trenches and people are shooting
at you and you're fearing for your life.
Betrayal is not a trauma.
And I just went, oh, boy, there's some learning to be done here, because it sure is a trauma
and it sure does have effects on our bodies and our minds and relationships.
And the PTSD is real.
So to start off, Debbie, could you explain what trauma is and how does trauma affect
our brains and our bodies?
Oh, boy.
OK, so trauma, I mean, clinically, you can say trauma is a distressing event in our life
that gets that is distressing enough that we become overwhelmed and so overwhelmed in
that moment that we can't digest it.
So that could be it.
And some of it goes back to childhood.
Some of it's in our marriage.
But trauma is really a distressing event.
And I guess to really explain it or to really help us look at it.
We are made or we are created as human beings to be delighted in and connected to or attuned
to.
That is from the time that we're born or really gestating.
We are meant for connection.
And without it, we can't be a human.
I mean, we're made for that.
But we're also made for honoring, just like God is.
God is we delight in him and we honor him.
So honoring things like when there's a rupture in our relationships with people, they're
repaired because that's an honoring act to do because we live in a sinful world where
our parents are sinful.
We're going to be raised with harm.
That's a given thing.
Things are going to hurt us and harm us in this world.
So how do we deal with that is by understanding that there's been a rupture in my relationships
because I was if some unkind word to me when I was a kid, what was meant to be like, let's
say I spilled the milk and mom comes to me and says, you bad little girl or what did
you do now?
That would be a trauma because it's a it's a to it like let's say a four year old to
a four year old, that would be traumatizing because we were meant to be understood as
a four year old.
Honey, that's OK.
We all make mistakes.
We all do that.
Help me clean it up.
We'll make a game out of it or that.
But but and then the child is free to make mistakes without feeling judged, rejected
or disconnected without the proper repair.
So when you think back, I think all of us can probably find five, six events in our
life where something like that happened to us.
So when that rupture happens and it's not repaired or that trauma or I will call that
a betrayal.
We are meant for this.
And when that didn't happen, we were betrayed somehow.
In that connection or that purpose, if you will.
And it went against and it left me feeling like I don't have value or I'm somehow not
worthy or have worthwhile.
And so we kind of even at four years old or even at two, you might know your mom's mad
at me.
I know that.
Dad is angry at me and I can't fix it.
So there's this sense of powerlessness that overcomes either the child or us.
And I'm going to get to connect this to the betrayal trauma that we have in marriage,
especially sexual betrayal.
So we we have this powerlessness.
I can't change me.
I can't redo that event and I can't change who I am.
So now I'm powerless to make a change.
And so that what that does is it numbs out hope that anything's going to get better.
So we have a betrayal that shatters our faith.
We become, you know, hyper vigilant.
We don't trust people.
Can I really be myself?
Can I do I really belong here to a powerlessness that numbs out hope to eventually just feeling
shame, which is that probably the pandemic of this world is that or at least a spiritual
pan pandemic issue is that we feel a lot of shame about who we are because all of this
has happened.
And if it happens at a young age, like for me at age four was my major event, and it
seemed benign to a lot of people.
To me for years, it was sort of like, well, what's the big deal about that?
But when I start dissecting it, I'm like, no wonder I freeze when somebody's really
angry at me, or no wonder I sought attention in this area.
A lot of it made sense.
So when you think about all of that, you have, you know, this this powerlessness and this
shame because what shame does is it ruins love for us and no longer are we able to really
effectively wholeheartedly enter into a relationship and feel confident, secure, and safe with
how we can interact with people.
That's so good.
You know, I was a couple of things had stuck out from what you just said.
You mentioned something about everyone about harm.
What was the statement that you used?
That we all are harmed in this world?
I don't know.
I mean, the Bible says it, you know.
But for some reason, I think that really stands out to me.
We're all going to be harmed.
I think a lot of us when we're going through a betrayal recovery, we aim to not be harmed
as much as we possibly can.
And I think that rupture repair is a beautiful example of the necessity to grow in our resilience,
to grow in post-traumatic growth.
It's the repair after the rupture, which will happen.
The Bible says it.
Debbie said it here.
That happened, right?
It's really true.
We have this expectation and this gets to the betrayal trauma that we have a troubled
childhood, let's just say.
Then we get married with the expectation that this is going to be so much better.
Yeah.
Because it's like a fresh start, but trauma is going to happen.
Yeah.
And something else that sort of stuck out to me as you were speaking just now, trauma
isn't always just what happens to us.
Sometimes it's what doesn't happen to us.
Correct.
Neglect.
Yeah.
Yeah, just the neglect and the things that we fill in as a result from that silence or
from that lack of attention or whatever it might be.
So Debbie, tell us, how does trauma then impact our relationships?
Not only with other people, but with ourselves as well.
Yeah.
I usually will start with this idea or Redeeming Heartache is this book that I picked up on
a while back.
And it says in there that trauma, more than anything else, trauma shapes our identity
and our actions to find safety.
So when you think of what I just said about trauma, it could be a lack of attunement or
a lack of honoring, a lack of repair.
So what Jen said, we make things up.
I made up that I don't have any value or there's something wrong with me.
And that even at four, you make that stuff up.
And because I think then when we get older, we make excuses for the harm done.
Well, my mom didn't mean it, but yet that wound, it's still a wound in us.
So our body will store it up because it's part of our identity, especially the shame.
But then the actions I take to try to find safety is impacted by the trauma in the fight,
flight, or freeze response is that it's automatic.
It becomes part of how I react to future harm, which makes it now post-traumatic stress.
But your current trauma, you get married and you experience unkind words, lack of connection,
you get in an argument, conflict, or sexual betrayal, it unearths past trauma.
So all that past trauma becomes that you thought was buried back here is now unearthed.
So until you build that bridge from your current trauma to your past trauma to understand,
no wonder, like for me, no wonder I freeze sometimes when people get angry at me and
I'm stuck or I feel stuck at times, or no wonder I get angry at that comment or that
particular look is because I can't, so I have to build that bridge back and now I can find,
understand, it's no wonder I have fight, flight, freeze, or fawning is because building that
bridge is going to require, and that's the hard part about working with women who are
in a betrayal trauma versus looking at it holistically is that until you build that bridge and understand
your style of relating, your fight, flight, freeze, or fawning, you're not going to see
the real war that's going on inside you because you will blame or you will say, okay, I've
got to do something about my anger.
Well, the anger is there for a reason or I don't know why it is.
I just freeze and I do whatever he says and I just want to make peace.
I want peace.
Your heart wants peace and calm and to be accepted, but sometimes you have to do it
against your identity.
It's like, wait a minute, I need some boundaries here, and so that brings up them setting boundaries
and then they said, well, I feel guilty when I set that boundary.
So it requires us to step away from our style of relating, which is scary.
We feel vulnerable in order to really see the real war, but that's also the problem
sometimes with just looking at dealing with in a marriage and you're working through what
do you do first?
Are you going to just deal with the betrayal in this marriage and not unearth or identify
past trauma and how that might be contributing to your ability to feel safe and secure right
now in this relationship, even if he's relapsing?
Can I still feel like the world isn't falling apart?
The resilience that Jen talked about, how do I be resilient to relapse?
And that only comes from examining your sense of self and your own sense of value and worth.
Oh, I think we just found a bite clip.
I don't know what the word is.
That is so good, Debbie.
We found our opening snippet was great.
That's good, Debbie.
That is because a lot of women really truly struggle with the, what do I do if he relapses?
And then we put all of our safety on the person who's in recovery and then we're subject to
their journey as a result.
That's so good.
And it is definitely a skill that has to be learned of learning how to unhitch our cart
from that horse.
Yes.
The horse being our husband's journey, our husband's issues.
We don't have to attach to that.
We have our own work to do and we can be separate from that.
We can come alongside it, but we don't have to be a part of it.
And that is kind of like a betrayal recovery class 1.2 or something.
You got to level up there a little bit.
It's not the beginner class.
I wanted to speak to, oh, go ahead, Debbie.
I just wanted to add a little piece about this working through this idea of unearthing
past trauma and this is that we have to start identifying the debris that's left over from
our trauma.
What is it that I do or what's blocking?
In other words, I like to use a bridge, logs get caught under bridge and the water can't
flow.
I have a lot of metaphors for betrayal trauma, but there's this blockage.
Once I start taking it apart, the fear is if I take that log out, the log out of my
own eye, if I do that, I have to identify the debris that all my trauma has caused.
It's not just going to be, well, if my husband didn't cheat on me, then my life and marriage
is fine, but most of the complaints that come in is not just about the sex.
It's about how he treats me, the lack of attunement.
There's a lot of other things that go into making a relationship work other than just
good sex.
Maybe if you want, we can talk about that and a little bit about the debris of trauma
and what that looks like because that digs a little deeper into trauma.
Okay, yeah.
I was just going to speak to, thanks Debbie, to what Jen was saying about making things
up, filling in the blanks.
When I was little, my mom and dad got divorced when I was seven.
I lived with my mom for about a year and a half.
Then out of the blue, now I'm living with my dad.
My mom moved across the country.
I wasn't quite sure why that happened.
I'm sure they told me, but it didn't make an impact on me.
I don't remember.
I think it was my dad was getting remarried and they thought a whole family unit would
be a good thing for me maybe and my mom wasn't quite in a place where she was settled in
her life.
I moved in with my dad and in my brain, then I think I was 10 years old, I believed that
I was not a good girl.
I was not a blessing to my mother.
I was passed on to my father.
If I was not a blessing to my father, if I made waves, then I would go live with my aunt.
No one told me that.
I just thought that's probably the next place I'll go.
I felt a little bit like an orphan.
I felt a little bit like maybe even a foster child that just didn't have a place to put
deep roots down.
Nobody told me that.
I ended up telling that to my dad before he passed away in 2022.
He was just heartbroken that I thought that.
But again, it wasn't communicated, so I filled in the blanks.
In the absence of data, we will make up stuff because our lives are a story.
We have a beginning, a middle, and an end.
When we be transformed by the renewing of your mind is going back to your beginning
and I was created valuable and good or beautiful and good.
But the middle of my story became sort of broken.
I forgot about that value or it wasn't taught to me or affirmed.
I wasn't treated as if I was valued, worthy of honor and attunement.
Then we come to this point where the crisis happens in our life.
It exposes where our faith was.
It exposes how we found safety.
Did we find safety in the care of the Holy Spirit or God or did we find safety in ourselves?
It exposes all of that or my husband.
As long as my husband treated me this way, I was okay.
That crisis or trauma exposes where I put my faith and my trust in.
That's scary too.
But trauma, the reason why we make up stuff and we don't, in the absence of data, we
somehow dissociate ourselves from that and we make up stuff that makes it seem better
or make it seem okay.
My mom might have moved away.
She might have not had the capacity.
I just don't know.
That's what we have to do when we're in trauma recovery is to go back and reclaim those events
by putting them into context about your age, where was your mom and what should have happened.
What should have happened to little Chris back there?
I'll call her Chrissy.
Yes, that's accurate.
She should have been sat down and explained or at least affirmed that we both love you
and this is what's going to happen and we love you and we're going to do it this way.
She would have had a better experience.
Now as an adult, you can do that for yourself as acknowledged.
She didn't get the care that she needed.
Yes, that's called reparenting.
Yes.
You can go back adult.
You can go back and talk to younger you.
What you just said, Debbie, is such a good segue for my next question and that is what
are some common signs or symptoms that someone may be experiencing during trauma?
How's it going to present?
Okay.
We're looking at it from a coaching or a therapist point of view.
We're watching for dissociation when they're telling their story.
Is there a sense that they are talking about the event without emotion?
What they're doing is there's that and this is natural part of the debris of trauma is
that we learn to dissociate because feeling is very, very difficult.
It's painful.
People can be very matter of fact, but their stories are fragmented.
I'll have gals talking about, oh yeah, back in when I was seven or eight this happened
and then pretty soon they're in a five-year-old.
They kind of skip and skip around in their stories, but they get lost sometimes and then
we dissociate to from who we are.
For me, I'm this four-year-old girl sitting in the chair, but I don't see that at me today.
I don't look at that four-year-old in the chair, but when I go back and sit in that
chair I have to go, she was four years old.
What put her in the chair, she was four years old in doing what she was told to do, at least
in her head.
She was doing that, but then her dad got angry at her and sat her in a chair and told her
to stay there.
We have to put our stories into context to make sense and to sort of affirm to ourselves
was I did not get the repair I needed and I made up that I was a bad kid or I was confused
and now I'm stuck because I don't know how to move forward.
How does that impact me today?
Also watching when people are telling their stories of harm, especially even their betrayal
traumas, there's fragmentation.
They break it up and they flood with emotion sometimes and then they're going on about
... They might be telling you about what it felt like to be betrayed in this marriage,
but then they start going back and fragmenting and telling other parts of the story or other
things that their husband did besides that.
It's also this lack of boundaries they have in their life about how they communicate emotions,
which is another part of their recovery process, is how do I communicate in a contained way
and moderation, how do I express that?
The big one is isolation.
When we examine and start looking at a person's life, they don't have any friends or they
have one friend or they don't feel like I've connected to anybody.
They're very isolated in their life and they don't have people that they have deep discussions
with.
I do have a couple of women that go, no, I have some good friends that she's able to
talk to and those people do a lot better in therapy than people who are just very isolated
in a lot of them.
Those three things, dissociation, fragmentation, and isolation are very signs that a person
needs to do some trauma work or story work, what I would call it.
That's good.
I'm going to try to connect a couple of dots here.
One of the things that I hear a lot in the recovery journey, something I personally experienced,
was a lack of my husband's emotions.
Boy, I would... You swear you could shake that guy.
You could not shake an emotion out of him.
I'm realizing now as we talk, when they're talking about things and have no emotions
or feelings and they're just very matter of fact, definitely a sign of dissociation.
Same thing when I was trying to wake him up to say, I'm going to leave and he'd have no
response at all, dissociation.
Which goes back and connects the dot here for me.
That is a part of the trauma I experienced in betrayal, the lack of.
It wasn't just the things he did that caused damage.
It was the lack.
His dissociation affected me profoundly because he could not show up in relationship.
I appreciate the context of what you put this relationally, Debbie, because even now, this
far into the process, I still feel like I'm learning about myself and about my husband,
about my responses to him.
Debbie, tell us, how can an individual begin to recognize and address this sort of trauma
in their own lives?
I think what you had just said is that if your husband is, I'm going on the record
of saying, I think everybody's experienced betrayal trauma at this level that I've talked
about.
That means that I think most addicted people as well.
So you're coming in, a wife would usually present coming in, I've been betrayed in my
marriage.
I've been with betrayal trauma, but he's had betrayal trauma as well.
It's just that that's part of that looking back and saying, what's the real war we are
both fighting?
And that's that inner war that was created relationally and patterned into us from our
family of origin of what was meant to be, what didn't happen.
And then how can we move forward and change the inner structure?
And that's what I would do with story work is really is going back in your life.
I think finding some stability in your marriage is important, I think, to maybe start the
journey.
It's like if your marriage was here in a, let's say you live in a house with a basement,
a tornado comes in, it'll wipe the house out.
So you're left with just the basement.
Are you going to live in the basement till the house is rebuilt?
But some people say, no, I'm going to hotel.
So it's sort of like, where am I going to find some sense of safety and security, at
least in the short term?
What's going to be best for me as the wife?
Let's just say I'm on the train.
If I'm feeling I can't even look at him, his very presence in the room pushes all my buttons,
I might need to leave for a while so I can get my body calm because all that trauma affects
your body and all of the feelings and emotions of betrayal if it's rejection.
So I've got to get centered somehow.
But if I'm got, he's watching pornography and he hasn't watched it in a couple of weeks
and he's in recovery, he's going to group and doing these things, I feel a little bit
safer with him, maybe staying in the basement while the house gets rebuilt is fine.
We can still be together.
So because the rebuilding process is going to start with a sense of a little bit of sense
of safety or stability, I would say, especially with my emotions.
Can I sit and not be triggered all the time?
Can I calm myself down if I'm angry?
We call it regulating.
That's what boundary work is about.
Boundary is about protecting my triggers.
Well, those comments trigger me.
Why is that?
But I have to protect my value and you doing that behavior devalues me so I have to be
away from it.
Or it's containing, that boundary contains me in that I can't just go off and start
yelling profanities at you because love is kind.
How do I love my enemy?
If I look at you as the enemy, the very minimum I've got to be respectful.
That's the minimum of love.
And I can't have warm affection for you, which is at the other end, but love is on the continuum.
And it's not always warm affection walking in the woods all the time.
That's not what marriage is.
Marriage is a continuum.
So how do I respect you even though I'm really, really angry at you right now?
That means I got to contain it and saying, you know what?
What you just did, really, really, I felt very disrespected when you did that.
And about that, I feel really angry.
That's my little script.
When I saw you roll your eyes at me, I felt so, I thought he is so disrespectful.
And about that, I feel really angry right now.
Did you mean that?
No, I didn't mean it.
That's not what I meant.
Okay, then don't do that again, please.
Don't roll your eyes at me because that's contemptuous, by the way.
So it's like, hmm.
So we've got to learn to communicate and that would be an honoring thing.
I want this relationship to work.
We need to repair this, this breach, this breach in our relationship or this, you know,
disconnection we have.
So using a script is one of the things I like to do.
So first thing I teach you, teach them is that boundary words is sort of like, I too
have to have boundaries in how I communicate my emotions to you because I want to be respectful.
I have to say that in the recovery process, you could probably attest to this, Debbie.
I think people like me don't think that they should, they don't get boundaries.
I get all the boundaries.
They don't get to have any because they put themselves in this position and this is my
turn to be heard and say all the things that I need to say.
That's very common.
Boundaries are misunderstood.
Boundaries are not what you have to do in this relationship.
Boundaries is what I do.
It's a self-imposed limit on what I will say and what I won't say, what I will do and what
I won't do.
And if I'm angry, for me, in my anger, I have been capable of saying some really mean, sarcastic
things.
I know what I'm tempted with and I know what I'm vulnerable to do and I don't want to be
that person.
I like that, Debbie.
Boundaries are what I will say, what I won't say, what I will do, what I won't do.
It really has nothing to do with it.
Self-imposed limits.
Nice.
A self-imposed limit.
It's like, when you told me you relapsed, I said to myself, oh my gosh, here we go again.
He hates me.
He doesn't love or care for me.
I'm thinking those.
And about that, I feel scared.
I feel really scared that you don't love me.
That's what your behavior communicates to me.
Since I know that, so my boundary is, if you do that again, I'm leaving this marriage.
I mean, that's extreme, by the way.
Or you are going to leave the house for a week because I don't want to be around you.
I only am in a relationship in a marriage where I know somebody loves and cares for me.
That's my boundary.
That's a good one.
I have sex with, I don't have sex with people or anybody.
I don't have sex with you if I don't trust you.
And right now, I don't trust you.
So it's all about what I'm going to do based on my own boundaries.
What are your sexual boundaries?
Where do you draw the line?
And either I have the right to say when, with who, and how far I go sexually.
That's my privilege.
That's my boundary.
And when we start early recovery with couples, especially if they've been abstinent for quite
a while, which is probably usually the case, we start with, it's got to be consensual.
When you reach out to touch your wife in the kitchen, right now ask for her permission
or vice versa.
You say, I'd like to hug you.
Is that okay?
That's good.
Yeah.
I was just talking with a client last week that was talking about that very topic and
that's great.
I love the ask permission until the trust is rebuilt and then the free form, free flowing
of the relationship can return, but it's going to take time.
It also gives us the opportunity to reach into identifying the need and then speaking
it because many of us are just so freaking compliant that even being asked to be touched
is foreign.
Being asked permission to be respected, that level's foreign.
So it is an exercise for some of us.
I cut you off, Chris.
I'm sorry.
Oh no, it's all good.
We're having a good conversation here.
It's also in my experience anyway, is that there's a message, especially as Christian
women that it's our duty.
We may not want this.
We may not want to be touched in the kitchen, but it's our duty to allow our spouse to do
that and that's not true.
That is not what God intended and that's not just a given.
Permission still exists there, especially if the trust has been broken.
I think that there's a lot of conversation that we could have about our sexuality as
Christian women and the whole idea.
That's a good topic.
We probably should.
I have a lot to say about that.
Yeah, we'll have to have a part two.
I love it.
I like talking about sex too.
I know.
Right?
That's good.
That's healthy.
Debbie's got some sass in her.
She can really talk about the tough subjects for sure.
That's right.
Yeah.
Debbie, what would be some effective strategies or techniques for recovering from trauma?
You mentioned a few in the last little topic, the conversation that we had.
Yeah, what are some good strategies to recover from this?
I would say start.
If the woman is saying, okay, my husband betrayed me, the first place I'd start with them is
hearing their story, this betrayal story of what's happened, having them get that out.
We talk about your sexual timeline in this marriage.
What was your experience with that?
If it's a coupleship too, as he does his, they do them separately.
When I first met you, how did it lead to romance?
What was your courtship like?
How did that progress?
Because then your rebuilding on a courtship is like, maybe we take that three month break
from sex, but we have to go back to courting and really reestablishing the real bond that
should be there, that's not there.
But I think to be realistic, it was like a tsunami came into this marriage.
All her foundation is wiped away.
The foundation that kept this marriage together and usually, well, at least we're having sex,
but now there's no sex, so there's no foundation.
They have to start by what's the fastest way that you can rebuild trust with each other.
Well, she needs to discover what is it that created in our marriage any sense of lack
of trust?
Why couldn't he bring this issue to me in the beginning?
What was it about the secrets that he was keeping that maybe he didn't feel safe enough
to share with me?
And vice versa with him, it's sort of like they both have to identify those kinds of
things and start there making commitments that they're going to work on that particular
issue.
And then to once there's some stability there, that's a rebuilding of trust there, at least
the fast highway of it.
I'm in therapy, I'm going to group, I'm learning about addiction, I'm taking ownership of what
I do, I've got accountability, I'm learning to be non-judgmental, I'm being accountable
and I'm working from a sense of value and I'm working on my sense of self.
And following that is going back to your stories of harm.
What's the debris?
What is the debris that I carry into this relationship and my style of relating?
I need to identify, fight, flight, freeze and fawning.
If I don't, I'm going to always be reactive to that.
And so I've got to learn how to deal with that and know what my temptations are and
finding a calmness to my body.
As you're talking, Debbie, I was just reading in for Samuel and you're talking about what's
the war we're fighting?
What's the origin story?
You've got a trauma response, go back to your childhood and figure out your earliest traumas
and make that connection to the trauma you're experiencing now.
And there's this really curious passage, I think it's in first Samuel chapter three,
maybe two, but Saul has been recognized by the Lord said, Samuel, Saul is going to be
the king and go find him and anoint him.
So it's been announced the people of Israel have asked for a king, they're all excited
and now they're all gathered to coronate Saul as the first king of Israel.
And it's like, okay, they did the speeches, they did all the things and now, okay, Saul,
come on up and Saul's nowhere to be found.
And the Lord tells Samuel, he's hiding in the baggage.
It literally says he's hiding in the baggage.
So this man that was, the Bible says, head and shoulders taller than any other man in
all of Israel and he is the most handsome man.
He is the most glorious man.
He's a fine specimen of a man, the Bible's telling us, right?
And here he is hiding in the baggage.
Now I know that was literal.
He was hiding amongst boxes and bags and things, supplies.
But metaphorically, what baggage are we hiding in within our marriage or within our relationships?
What baggage do we need to deal with because God called him out of the baggage to be king.
And I don't know, as you were talking, I was just thinking about that.
That is a, it's what we're all called to do.
So I love these steps that you're talking about because you're talking about refragmenting.
We're bringing the fragments together.
We're not isolating anymore.
We're being authentic.
We're finding our safe inner circle.
We're telling our story.
And I love that.
We talk about it all the time, that Anne Voskamp quote, that shame dies when stories are told
in safe places.
So having a therapist or a clinician, someone to talk to, yeah, learning, finding out, getting
the data of what's happening to us.
Yeah.
It's like, it's like a, we're a tapestry and we've got to be unraveled before, before getting
back to the story is we have a beginning, a middle.
Now how are you going to rewrite the end?
You and God can rewrite the ending of this story as he, as you unravel that, that, that
tapestry that didn't get put together correctly or, you know, honoring, and then you're now
he's going to reweave it to the design that he intended for you.
But, but, but the reweaving requires is still that old fabric, but it's going to be reweaved.
So you're still going to be you.
That's good.
I keep thinking of that song, I am unwritten or unwritten.
That comes to mind so often as I, as I think about this, that to me brings so much hope
because, because it isn't finished.
A lot of times we, we continue with the narrative that we're currently experiencing as if this
is the end of the story, forgetting that there is still a story that is continuing and the
power we have to engage in that story and, and write a different ending.
I have a quick, maybe not so quick, but I have a question regarding stories and during
this process, there's, you share some of your story with some people and you share aspects
of your story with others, or maybe you share all of your story with some people.
When we are looking to connect with others or let's just say we are supporting someone
in their story.
Sometimes it's scary to share the details.
We're not sure how it's going to be received.
Dan and I had shared stuff in the beginning and we had friends that ran the other way,
or we have like my mom who wasn't able to handle the heaviness of my story, but yet
these are people that loved us.
They were people who wanted to support us.
So could you speak, Debbie, to those who want to support people that are going through betrayal
trauma and addiction recovery?
I think of these, these dear hearts, my mom and these specific friends who wanted to be
there, but they didn't know how to handle the story.
Do you have any insight on how someone can support those who are dealing with betrayal
trauma and addiction recovery?
I think if you have a story to tell and you have like a friend that you think is to, is
to first say, you know what, I'd like to, is it okay if I share with you my story?
And then, and then to add in there, how would you like them to respond?
Because what happens, what happens when, what happens when you're listening to somebody
if you're not prepared or, or if you're, if, or if you're a very anxious person there,
or you know, like I know my mom, I wouldn't necessarily talk to her about a lot of things
because she wants to fix it.
And so, so it's like, okay, I don't need you to fix it, but I just need to really talk
about that.
And, and that's really being more discerning about who I share my story with, but it's
also respectful to that other person.
They might not have the, they might not have the capacity because when you're empathetic,
you're able to sit and listen to somebody without judgment.
And so if you, if you are, if you feel anxious when somebody's talking about it and you think
what should I say next?
What do they want from me?
You're in anxiety, so you're not going to be the best listener.
So usually it's sort of like, okay, I would, I just, you know, when I'm, when I'm telling
Harry, my husband, you know, some personal things or something that's vulnerable, I just
want him to listen.
I don't want him to make comment.
And he finds that I can just start talking about it.
Then I'm like, oh, then I go to, you know, because he, then he hears it all where before
I would not say anything because he used to want to fix it, you know, or he, you know,
change the narrative a little bit.
So, so letting people know how you want, how you would like them to respond or, you know,
in at, and offering if at any time you start feeling anxious to just say, well, wait, let's
take a breather.
So you giving them that opportunity to kind of stop the story and let's take a breath.
That's a lot, you know, so.
Wow.
That is, that's very empowering to let someone know exactly what you're needing.
And then also giving them the permission if it's too much to, to say, Hey, you know.
Yes.
I didn't learn that skillset until afterward.
One of the things that you've, that I've learned from you, Jen, is you'll, you'll call and
say, okay, I need to talk about something.
I don't want you to fix it.
I just want to be known.
Well, yeah, but that's after 10 years of therapy.
Yes, but it works.
The therapy works.
And that's such a great takeaway.
And I love what you said there too, Debbie, about asking permission.
Because sometimes our stories of trauma, most of the time trauma is heavy.
And there might be, there might be some situations where people don't want to know this or they
don't have the capacity to hold that.
Maybe they have their own trauma they're dealing with, or, or maybe they don't have the skills,
you know, necessary to hold that story with us.
So asking permission, I got something going on.
This is, you know, do you want to know this?
May I share this with you?
It's such a beautiful thing to not burden other people, you know, as we're, especially
in the beginning of healing from any kind of trauma, as we're identifying our inner
circle, you know, we might have really important people that we love and that we've done life
with and we've got these great histories with, but they might not be our person in the healing
process.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, you know, our own wounding is sometimes we misinterpret another person's behavior,
you know, we make up, well, they didn't call, call me back.
I called them and asked them and they didn't call, call me back.
So they interpret that as a rejection.
They perceive it as a rejection and they take offense to it.
When really you went then fast forward a week or two, the person calls back and they said,
well, my mother, I had to put my mother in a nursing home.
Right.
So they find the real truth out.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Good point.
Yes.
Well, this has been such a great conversation and definitely we would love to invite you
back for another one because this was not enough time, but in closing for this conversation,
Debbie, is there a word of encouragement you'd like to share with our listeners?
Yeah.
Take the time and to honor yourself and, and discover your story.
Kind of, I, I think it's an honoring thing to do to attune to ourselves and understand
what, you know, where, where did I not get attuned to and that I am worthy of that or
I am valuable enough to attune, to be attuned to.
And that's where that inner healing with God's going to come from as well is when you open
yourself up to the wounds that for me, that little four year old and, and then what, what
did that four year old do to get attention?
What did she do to fit in?
What did she make up about herself?
And, and, and fast forward to why did that, my four year old, why did she hate her personality
so much?
Why did she want to be this person and not who God intended to be?
And that the, in the shame of that.
So when we connect and make those appropriate contextual discoveries about ourselves, we're
able to be more authentic in our relationships and set the boundaries about how people treat
us.
I, you know, you know, I don't, I don't want to be in a relationship with somebody that
calls me names or implies that I'm stupid, but I've got to take, I got to be less judgmental
about that and discover what did they really mean?
So it's, it helps, it helps the relationship move forward when you can be authentic and
boundaried in your relationships.
And the only way we can really do that is to show up for ourselves.
Instead of waiting for others to show up for us, because maybe they don't have the capacity
to, but to show up well for ourselves, to, to advocate for ourselves, to know ourselves
on that level, to be curious about ourselves, all these things that equip us to show up
well in our lives, which will honestly truly expedite the healing process and get us that
much closer to the post-traumatic growth.
People all the time say, say, I just want to press fast forward.
Okay.
I'm like, okay, here's how you do it.
They don't like that answer.
I think, I think one of the ITAP presenters says it's like couples come in and they want
to go to the moon.
And then he's like, okay, but do you have a spaceship?
No.
Oh, how do you build one?
Oh, I don't know.
And then it's like, oh wait, I have to take calculus and I have to know math.
And then, so we have to start at the beginning and that, that beginning is starting with
who we are in this relationship.
Not what was done to me, but who am I?
Oh, and that's the bow on the conversation right there.
That was beautiful.
Who am I?
That is one of the most powerful things that we can do is be able to articulate your identity
and that's great work to pursue in this healing process.
So on that note, Debbie, thank you so much for being a guest on our podcast.
You're welcome.
It was delightful and informative.
It was fun being here.
Yeah.
Good.
It was fun.
I, I, we've enjoyed it very much.
I can tell because the listeners can't see us, but Jen and I have been ear to ear smiles
the whole time.
Yeah.
My face hurts.
Yeah.
So good.
I'm so glad.
So thank you listeners for tuning in and being a part of our podcast community.
Your support is valuable and we're here to serve you and we'd love to hear from you.
If you want to contact Jen and I, we've got an email address.
It's the BRT podcast at gmail.com.
We've got an Instagram.
It's the dot BRT dot podcast.
Um, and yeah, there's lots of ways to get ahold of us, but we'd love to hear from you.
And if you have ideas on, uh, guests you'd like us to invite, if you have questions you'd
like to have answered, et cetera, please, please reach out.
But on that note, everyone have a great, uh, we'll have a great life until we meet again
here on the betrayal recovery transformation podcast.
We'll see you here soon.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the betrayal recovery transformation podcast
with your hosts, Chris Rocha and Jen Howey.
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