1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,160 From the time that we're born or really gestating, we are meant for connection. 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:20,960 We are created as human beings to be delighted in and connected to or attuned to. 3 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,560 And without it, we can't be a human. 4 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,440 I mean, we're made for that. 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:34,880 Relapsement is a distressing event in our life that is distressing enough that we become 6 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,960 so overwhelmed in that moment that we can't digest it. 7 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,560 Even if he's relapsing, digest it. 8 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,760 Can I still feel like the world isn't falling apart? 9 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,560 How do I be resilient to relapse? 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:55,440 And that only comes from examining your sense of self and your own sense of value and worth. 11 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:03,360 Dear listeners, if you are into trivia, of which no one really cares about, what, Chris, 12 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,840 what was going to be the original name of this podcast? 13 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,360 Oh, that you're making me go back almost a year now. 14 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,360 It starts with the topic that we're talking about today. 15 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:17,360 Drama. 16 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,360 Uh-huh. 17 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:19,360 Drama. 18 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,360 Oh, trauma, drama, mamas. 19 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,040 Drama, drama, mamas. 20 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:24,520 I still have the email. 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:25,520 Okay. 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:26,840 Available, which I do not use. 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,960 And I'm quite honestly not even quite sure how to get rid of at this point. 24 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:36,760 But trauma, drama, mamas was the original name of our podcast that we had talked about, 25 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,760 which I still sort of low key love. 26 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:43,520 We still have an Instagram for that. 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,360 Which at this point probably has about the same amount of content on it as our current 28 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:49,360 Instagram has. 29 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:50,360 We're both so... 30 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,120 Actually, you're really good at the Instagram stuff in my mind. 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,480 So I give you all the credit for any social media presence that we have. 32 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,480 Oh, thank you. 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:02,480 It's a lot. 34 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:03,480 So we're learning. 35 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:04,480 We're learning. 36 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,640 Well, we're not talking about drama and we're not talking about mama. 37 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:15,120 However, we are talking about trauma today on the podcast with our guest, Debbie Flanagan, 38 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,840 who is a life coach and a clinician at Pure Desire Ministries. 39 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:24,160 And I was very pleased with the content that we came out with today. 40 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,360 I thought it was very helpful. 41 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:27,360 What thoughts did you have today? 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,320 Oh, I just thought it was so fundamental. 43 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,760 Such a fundamental topic. 44 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,200 We're talking about betrayal trauma. 45 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:36,880 We're betrayal recovery coaches. 46 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,780 And it was just such a good going back to basics topic and conversation defining what 47 00:02:41,780 --> 00:02:48,760 trauma is, talking about how to recover from it, how to spot it in ourselves. 48 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:54,080 And some great key takeaways about methods to overcome and heal from trauma. 49 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,240 It was very equipping. 50 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:56,240 I thought so too. 51 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,720 And a great conversation. 52 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:58,720 Yeah. 53 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:04,320 Understanding that trauma really comes from a concept called rupture repair and throwing 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,960 that in the context of our recovery journey as well. 55 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,620 I thought it was, I thought Debbie did an excellent job. 56 00:03:11,620 --> 00:03:12,740 She sure did. 57 00:03:12,740 --> 00:03:17,000 And she did mention a couple other topics that she loves to talk about, which is boundary 58 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,080 work and also sex. 59 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,120 So we're going to have her back on probably at least two more times to hear her heart 60 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,600 and her, she's so highly educated and well informed. 61 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,900 And so we're going to definitely have her back a few more times to talk about those 62 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:32,900 two topics. 63 00:03:32,900 --> 00:03:35,160 So she had some great offerings. 64 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,480 You know, it's just so amazing how there is no arrival. 65 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,240 It really is a journey. 66 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:41,240 We're always learning. 67 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:42,240 We're always growing. 68 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,160 We're always adding to, you know, connecting the dots. 69 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,440 Definitely, and today's episode was definitely one of those situations. 70 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:50,520 Definitely. 71 00:03:50,520 --> 00:04:02,880 So with that, enjoy today's podcast. 72 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:04,040 Hello everyone. 73 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,520 Welcome to another episode of the Betrayal Recovery Transformation Podcast. 74 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,320 This is your place to reclaim your life after betrayal. 75 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:16,160 And I'm your host, Chris Rocha, and I'm here with my dear friend and co-host, Jen Howey. 76 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,280 Hi, Jen. 77 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:21,200 I think that's the first time you've called me dear friend in your opener. 78 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,640 You know, I try to switch things up a little bit, keep it fresh. 79 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:25,640 I'll take it. 80 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:26,640 I'll take it. 81 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:27,640 Hello. 82 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:34,720 Yes, this is Jen Howey and with my dear friend, Chris Rocha, and with also another dear friend 83 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:36,240 who is our guest today. 84 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:44,840 Not only, oh boy, not only is she a dear friend, but she was my very first clinician when Dan 85 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:47,160 and I were going through our healing process. 86 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:52,080 So for me, this is kind of a full circle episode. 87 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:53,440 We are talking- Precious moments. 88 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:54,440 Yeah. 89 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:55,440 Yeah. 90 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:01,240 We were talking about trauma, which I am so grateful to have had our guest, who is Debbie 91 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,360 Flanagan today, on the podcast. 92 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:11,040 Like I said, she's a clinician, she's a life coach, she's a pastoral sex addiction professional, 93 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,600 and I'll let her fill in a little bit more about how many years that she's had. 94 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:16,600 I'm not sure, Debbie. 95 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,520 We'll ask this question in just a moment, but I think maybe Dan and I might have been 96 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,400 your first clients or maybe one of your first clients. 97 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,080 I was wondering if I messed you guys up or not. 98 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:27,080 Well, I don't know. 99 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,080 That remains to be seen. 100 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:37,960 So with that, Debbie Flanagan, dear friend, cherished clinician, life coach, and professional, 101 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,080 welcome to the podcast. 102 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,720 Could you introduce yourself a little bit more than I did and tell us a little bit about 103 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:45,720 yourself? 104 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:46,720 Yes. 105 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:47,720 Yes. 106 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,240 So I have been in the healing field and I entered into the healing field through the 107 00:05:53,240 --> 00:06:01,200 area of love addiction very early on in like the 19, probably 1994. 108 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:07,020 So it's been about 30 years or so that at our church, we started in a healing ministry 109 00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:08,880 world Diane Roberts did. 110 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:14,620 And that's how far back I go even with the concept of sex and love addiction. 111 00:06:14,620 --> 00:06:18,840 And of course, then women were saying we were incorporating the women because of the betrayal 112 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:23,400 trauma and these couples wanted to stay together and work it through. 113 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,960 So we were developing and using all the tools. 114 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:32,480 Thirty years ago, there wasn't a lot of resources for women. 115 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:37,080 And then of course, you had church, the church was sort of like, well, you just need to work 116 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,080 it out. 117 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:39,280 We don't want to talk about sex. 118 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:40,800 We don't want to talk about those things. 119 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:48,480 So we luckily, I was trained up under people who were comfortable with talking about sex. 120 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,000 So that's how far back I go. 121 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:58,880 And then later on, I was working at the church and then I my husband, Harry, he he was working 122 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,000 at the church as well. 123 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:09,080 But when Pastor Ted moved out of the pastorate and into founding the Pure Desire Ministry 124 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,160 as a nonprofit, Harry went with him to counsel there. 125 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:19,960 And so in our our pattern is to couple, counsel couples together. 126 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:25,720 And that has been one of our strengths, I think, in this field, because most of, as 127 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,960 you know, a lot of clinicians, a lot of training say you do individual and then you do couples 128 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,760 because it's you know, and we do a fair amount of individual as well. 129 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,120 But for the most part, our client is the couple. 130 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,000 And so we're always constantly working on that. 131 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:49,200 And I've done the you know, the I was involved with the original CSAT training. 132 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,000 But then but then I got my pastoral license and became a PSAP. 133 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:00,160 So I don't have that, you know, that four year therapeutic therapy license. 134 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,080 But I have got so many other certifications. 135 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:04,080 I love coaching. 136 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,400 I love that aspect of asking questions. 137 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,920 And I love getting to know people that way and getting to know what makes them click 138 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:15,920 and asking them those poignant questions that help them to think through how to how how 139 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,400 what choices can I make? 140 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,200 I love talking about boundaries because a lot of times those are misunderstood. 141 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,800 I love talking about women in sex addiction as well. 142 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:33,440 I think that's a field that is sort of coming into its coming into a lot of recovery work 143 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:40,120 for that and recognizing with the betrayal trauma, just really how deep betrayal goes. 144 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,720 It's not just oh, I got betrayed in my marriage. 145 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,080 So when I help and work with women, I like to look a little deeper. 146 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,000 Yeah, thanks, Debbie. 147 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:54,120 So just to clarify for our listeners, Debbie just referred to Ted and Diane Roberts, who 148 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,240 are the founders of a ministry called Pure Desire International. 149 00:08:58,240 --> 00:08:59,240 They're fantastic. 150 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,920 Jen and I both did our healing work through that ministry. 151 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,560 And so and the ministry was founded or started in a church called East Hill, right in the 152 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:11,520 Gresham, Oregon area. 153 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,340 So just giving a little context for our listeners. 154 00:09:15,340 --> 00:09:19,400 So today we are going to talk about another one of your favorite topics, Debbie, which 155 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,400 is trauma, trauma in general. 156 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:28,360 And oh my gosh, that's you know, our our podcast is called the betrayal recovery transformation 157 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,360 podcast. 158 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,240 And it's all things betrayal, all things recovery, all things transformation. 159 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:38,720 And so the betrayal topic fits right into that first part, the trauma topic fits right 160 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,480 into that first part, because we are betrayal recovery coaches. 161 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:44,800 All three of us are. 162 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,920 And so let's let's just dive into trauma. 163 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:59,200 I had an experience recently with someone who said you're a betrayal trauma coach. 164 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,340 That doesn't make sense. 165 00:10:01,340 --> 00:10:04,440 Trauma is something that happens when you go to war. 166 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,440 PTSD is something you you get when you've been in the trenches and people are shooting 167 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,960 at you and you're fearing for your life. 168 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,040 Betrayal is not a trauma. 169 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:18,040 And I just went, oh, boy, there's some learning to be done here, because it sure is a trauma 170 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,960 and it sure does have effects on our bodies and our minds and relationships. 171 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,640 And the PTSD is real. 172 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:31,600 So to start off, Debbie, could you explain what trauma is and how does trauma affect 173 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,200 our brains and our bodies? 174 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:34,200 Oh, boy. 175 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:42,480 OK, so trauma, I mean, clinically, you can say trauma is a distressing event in our life 176 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:49,560 that gets that is distressing enough that we become overwhelmed and so overwhelmed in 177 00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:53,260 that moment that we can't digest it. 178 00:10:53,260 --> 00:10:55,560 So that could be it. 179 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:57,280 And some of it goes back to childhood. 180 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,480 Some of it's in our marriage. 181 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,840 But trauma is really a distressing event. 182 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:10,780 And I guess to really explain it or to really help us look at it. 183 00:11:10,780 --> 00:11:18,840 We are made or we are created as human beings to be delighted in and connected to or attuned 184 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:19,840 to. 185 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,480 That is from the time that we're born or really gestating. 186 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,960 We are meant for connection. 187 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,280 And without it, we can't be a human. 188 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,960 I mean, we're made for that. 189 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,520 But we're also made for honoring, just like God is. 190 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,880 God is we delight in him and we honor him. 191 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:45,040 So honoring things like when there's a rupture in our relationships with people, they're 192 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,920 repaired because that's an honoring act to do because we live in a sinful world where 193 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,960 our parents are sinful. 194 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,880 We're going to be raised with harm. 195 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,720 That's a given thing. 196 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,640 Things are going to hurt us and harm us in this world. 197 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:04,080 So how do we deal with that is by understanding that there's been a rupture in my relationships 198 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:12,400 because I was if some unkind word to me when I was a kid, what was meant to be like, let's 199 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,520 say I spilled the milk and mom comes to me and says, you bad little girl or what did 200 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,080 you do now? 201 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,720 That would be a trauma because it's a it's a to it like let's say a four year old to 202 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,960 a four year old, that would be traumatizing because we were meant to be understood as 203 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:29,960 a four year old. 204 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,240 Honey, that's OK. 205 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:32,400 We all make mistakes. 206 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,400 We all do that. 207 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:34,400 Help me clean it up. 208 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:35,400 Help me clean it up. 209 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,800 We'll make a game out of it or that. 210 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:45,440 But but and then the child is free to make mistakes without feeling judged, rejected 211 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,920 or disconnected without the proper repair. 212 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,080 So when you think back, I think all of us can probably find five, six events in our 213 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,360 life where something like that happened to us. 214 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:03,440 So when that rupture happens and it's not repaired or that trauma or I will call that 215 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,040 a betrayal. 216 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,600 We are meant for this. 217 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,000 And when that didn't happen, we were betrayed somehow. 218 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,680 In that connection or that purpose, if you will. 219 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:21,680 And it went against and it left me feeling like I don't have value or I'm somehow not 220 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:24,800 worthy or have worthwhile. 221 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,140 And so we kind of even at four years old or even at two, you might know your mom's mad 222 00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:30,140 at me. 223 00:13:30,140 --> 00:13:31,140 I know that. 224 00:13:31,140 --> 00:13:33,480 Dad is angry at me and I can't fix it. 225 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:39,800 So there's this sense of powerlessness that overcomes either the child or us. 226 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,240 And I'm going to get to connect this to the betrayal trauma that we have in marriage, 227 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,720 especially sexual betrayal. 228 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,640 So we we have this powerlessness. 229 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:50,840 I can't change me. 230 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,560 I can't redo that event and I can't change who I am. 231 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:57,640 So now I'm powerless to make a change. 232 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,240 And so that what that does is it numbs out hope that anything's going to get better. 233 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,280 So we have a betrayal that shatters our faith. 234 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,200 We become, you know, hyper vigilant. 235 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,200 We don't trust people. 236 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,280 Can I really be myself? 237 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:18,400 Can I do I really belong here to a powerlessness that numbs out hope to eventually just feeling 238 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:24,600 shame, which is that probably the pandemic of this world is that or at least a spiritual 239 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:31,100 pan pandemic issue is that we feel a lot of shame about who we are because all of this 240 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:32,100 has happened. 241 00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:38,500 And if it happens at a young age, like for me at age four was my major event, and it 242 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:40,840 seemed benign to a lot of people. 243 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,200 To me for years, it was sort of like, well, what's the big deal about that? 244 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:49,320 But when I start dissecting it, I'm like, no wonder I freeze when somebody's really 245 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:54,520 angry at me, or no wonder I sought attention in this area. 246 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,000 A lot of it made sense. 247 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:03,320 So when you think about all of that, you have, you know, this this powerlessness and this 248 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:10,440 shame because what shame does is it ruins love for us and no longer are we able to really 249 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:18,800 effectively wholeheartedly enter into a relationship and feel confident, secure, and safe with 250 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,400 how we can interact with people. 251 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:23,400 That's so good. 252 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,760 You know, I was a couple of things had stuck out from what you just said. 253 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,120 You mentioned something about everyone about harm. 254 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,360 What was the statement that you used? 255 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,120 That we all are harmed in this world? 256 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,120 I don't know. 257 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,520 I mean, the Bible says it, you know. 258 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,840 But for some reason, I think that really stands out to me. 259 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,000 We're all going to be harmed. 260 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,960 I think a lot of us when we're going through a betrayal recovery, we aim to not be harmed 261 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:52,480 as much as we possibly can. 262 00:15:52,480 --> 00:16:01,000 And I think that rupture repair is a beautiful example of the necessity to grow in our resilience, 263 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,040 to grow in post-traumatic growth. 264 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,240 It's the repair after the rupture, which will happen. 265 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,240 The Bible says it. 266 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:09,240 Debbie said it here. 267 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,480 That happened, right? 268 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:12,480 It's really true. 269 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,200 We have this expectation and this gets to the betrayal trauma that we have a troubled 270 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,400 childhood, let's just say. 271 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,280 Then we get married with the expectation that this is going to be so much better. 272 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,280 Yeah. 273 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,280 Yeah. 274 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:27,280 Yeah. 275 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,040 Because it's like a fresh start, but trauma is going to happen. 276 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:31,040 Yeah. 277 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,480 And something else that sort of stuck out to me as you were speaking just now, trauma 278 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,800 isn't always just what happens to us. 279 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,760 Sometimes it's what doesn't happen to us. 280 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:42,760 Correct. 281 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:43,760 Neglect. 282 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:44,760 Yeah. 283 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:51,320 Yeah, just the neglect and the things that we fill in as a result from that silence or 284 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,080 from that lack of attention or whatever it might be. 285 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,360 So Debbie, tell us, how does trauma then impact our relationships? 286 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,640 Not only with other people, but with ourselves as well. 287 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:04,800 Yeah. 288 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:14,360 I usually will start with this idea or Redeeming Heartache is this book that I picked up on 289 00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:16,600 a while back. 290 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:25,280 And it says in there that trauma, more than anything else, trauma shapes our identity 291 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,200 and our actions to find safety. 292 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,920 So when you think of what I just said about trauma, it could be a lack of attunement or 293 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,160 a lack of honoring, a lack of repair. 294 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,160 So what Jen said, we make things up. 295 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:44,480 I made up that I don't have any value or there's something wrong with me. 296 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,600 And that even at four, you make that stuff up. 297 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,840 And because I think then when we get older, we make excuses for the harm done. 298 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,320 Well, my mom didn't mean it, but yet that wound, it's still a wound in us. 299 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:02,960 So our body will store it up because it's part of our identity, especially the shame. 300 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:11,080 But then the actions I take to try to find safety is impacted by the trauma in the fight, 301 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,560 flight, or freeze response is that it's automatic. 302 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:23,360 It becomes part of how I react to future harm, which makes it now post-traumatic stress. 303 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:30,120 But your current trauma, you get married and you experience unkind words, lack of connection, 304 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:37,320 you get in an argument, conflict, or sexual betrayal, it unearths past trauma. 305 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:43,160 So all that past trauma becomes that you thought was buried back here is now unearthed. 306 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:49,080 So until you build that bridge from your current trauma to your past trauma to understand, 307 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,640 no wonder, like for me, no wonder I freeze sometimes when people get angry at me and 308 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:59,880 I'm stuck or I feel stuck at times, or no wonder I get angry at that comment or that 309 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:08,400 particular look is because I can't, so I have to build that bridge back and now I can find, 310 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,520 understand, it's no wonder I have fight, flight, freeze, or fawning is because building that 311 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:19,440 bridge is going to require, and that's the hard part about working with women who are 312 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:29,640 in a betrayal trauma versus looking at it holistically is that until you build that bridge and understand 313 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,800 your style of relating, your fight, flight, freeze, or fawning, you're not going to see 314 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:41,200 the real war that's going on inside you because you will blame or you will say, okay, I've 315 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,200 got to do something about my anger. 316 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,160 Well, the anger is there for a reason or I don't know why it is. 317 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,320 I just freeze and I do whatever he says and I just want to make peace. 318 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,640 I want peace. 319 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,560 Your heart wants peace and calm and to be accepted, but sometimes you have to do it 320 00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:59,560 against your identity. 321 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:05,920 It's like, wait a minute, I need some boundaries here, and so that brings up them setting boundaries 322 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:11,680 and then they said, well, I feel guilty when I set that boundary. 323 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:19,680 So it requires us to step away from our style of relating, which is scary. 324 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:26,380 We feel vulnerable in order to really see the real war, but that's also the problem 325 00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:31,800 sometimes with just looking at dealing with in a marriage and you're working through what 326 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,060 do you do first? 327 00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:37,960 Are you going to just deal with the betrayal in this marriage and not unearth or identify 328 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:43,960 past trauma and how that might be contributing to your ability to feel safe and secure right 329 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,880 now in this relationship, even if he's relapsing? 330 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,400 Can I still feel like the world isn't falling apart? 331 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,520 The resilience that Jen talked about, how do I be resilient to relapse? 332 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:04,360 And that only comes from examining your sense of self and your own sense of value and worth. 333 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:07,560 Oh, I think we just found a bite clip. 334 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,680 I don't know what the word is. 335 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,680 That is so good, Debbie. 336 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,400 We found our opening snippet was great. 337 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,520 That's good, Debbie. 338 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,720 That is because a lot of women really truly struggle with the, what do I do if he relapses? 339 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:32,160 And then we put all of our safety on the person who's in recovery and then we're subject to 340 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,760 their journey as a result. 341 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:35,760 That's so good. 342 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:42,040 And it is definitely a skill that has to be learned of learning how to unhitch our cart 343 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,040 from that horse. 344 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,040 Yes. 345 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,160 The horse being our husband's journey, our husband's issues. 346 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,280 We don't have to attach to that. 347 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,680 We have our own work to do and we can be separate from that. 348 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,520 We can come alongside it, but we don't have to be a part of it. 349 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:04,880 And that is kind of like a betrayal recovery class 1.2 or something. 350 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,080 You got to level up there a little bit. 351 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,760 It's not the beginner class. 352 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,400 I wanted to speak to, oh, go ahead, Debbie. 353 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:21,920 I just wanted to add a little piece about this working through this idea of unearthing 354 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:27,920 past trauma and this is that we have to start identifying the debris that's left over from 355 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,840 our trauma. 356 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,760 What is it that I do or what's blocking? 357 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,680 In other words, I like to use a bridge, logs get caught under bridge and the water can't 358 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:37,680 flow. 359 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:43,080 I have a lot of metaphors for betrayal trauma, but there's this blockage. 360 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,080 Once I start taking it apart, the fear is if I take that log out, the log out of my 361 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:55,800 own eye, if I do that, I have to identify the debris that all my trauma has caused. 362 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:02,080 It's not just going to be, well, if my husband didn't cheat on me, then my life and marriage 363 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:07,160 is fine, but most of the complaints that come in is not just about the sex. 364 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:13,080 It's about how he treats me, the lack of attunement. 365 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,600 There's a lot of other things that go into making a relationship work other than just 366 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,400 good sex. 367 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,000 Maybe if you want, we can talk about that and a little bit about the debris of trauma 368 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,640 and what that looks like because that digs a little deeper into trauma. 369 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,120 Okay, yeah. 370 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:36,440 I was just going to speak to, thanks Debbie, to what Jen was saying about making things 371 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,520 up, filling in the blanks. 372 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:43,800 When I was little, my mom and dad got divorced when I was seven. 373 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,720 I lived with my mom for about a year and a half. 374 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,920 Then out of the blue, now I'm living with my dad. 375 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,400 My mom moved across the country. 376 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,000 I wasn't quite sure why that happened. 377 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,200 I'm sure they told me, but it didn't make an impact on me. 378 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,200 I don't remember. 379 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:06,160 I think it was my dad was getting remarried and they thought a whole family unit would 380 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,800 be a good thing for me maybe and my mom wasn't quite in a place where she was settled in 381 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,440 her life. 382 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:22,920 I moved in with my dad and in my brain, then I think I was 10 years old, I believed that 383 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,840 I was not a good girl. 384 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,840 I was not a blessing to my mother. 385 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,240 I was passed on to my father. 386 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:35,160 If I was not a blessing to my father, if I made waves, then I would go live with my aunt. 387 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,520 No one told me that. 388 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,880 I just thought that's probably the next place I'll go. 389 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,680 I felt a little bit like an orphan. 390 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,200 I felt a little bit like maybe even a foster child that just didn't have a place to put 391 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:47,200 deep roots down. 392 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,200 Nobody told me that. 393 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:54,040 I ended up telling that to my dad before he passed away in 2022. 394 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,200 He was just heartbroken that I thought that. 395 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:02,560 But again, it wasn't communicated, so I filled in the blanks. 396 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:10,360 In the absence of data, we will make up stuff because our lives are a story. 397 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:13,480 We have a beginning, a middle, and an end. 398 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:19,520 When we be transformed by the renewing of your mind is going back to your beginning 399 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,160 and I was created valuable and good or beautiful and good. 400 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,040 But the middle of my story became sort of broken. 401 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,120 I forgot about that value or it wasn't taught to me or affirmed. 402 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:39,720 I wasn't treated as if I was valued, worthy of honor and attunement. 403 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:45,520 Then we come to this point where the crisis happens in our life. 404 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,840 It exposes where our faith was. 405 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,720 It exposes how we found safety. 406 00:25:53,720 --> 00:26:01,120 Did we find safety in the care of the Holy Spirit or God or did we find safety in ourselves? 407 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:03,320 It exposes all of that or my husband. 408 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:10,200 As long as my husband treated me this way, I was okay. 409 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:18,160 That crisis or trauma exposes where I put my faith and my trust in. 410 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,040 That's scary too. 411 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:30,840 But trauma, the reason why we make up stuff and we don't, in the absence of data, we 412 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:36,400 somehow dissociate ourselves from that and we make up stuff that makes it seem better 413 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,480 or make it seem okay. 414 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,200 My mom might have moved away. 415 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,080 She might have not had the capacity. 416 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,160 I just don't know. 417 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,840 That's what we have to do when we're in trauma recovery is to go back and reclaim those events 418 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:58,440 by putting them into context about your age, where was your mom and what should have happened. 419 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,880 What should have happened to little Chris back there? 420 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,520 I'll call her Chrissy. 421 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,040 Yes, that's accurate. 422 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:13,440 She should have been sat down and explained or at least affirmed that we both love you 423 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:22,840 and this is what's going to happen and we love you and we're going to do it this way. 424 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,360 She would have had a better experience. 425 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:28,600 Now as an adult, you can do that for yourself as acknowledged. 426 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:34,120 She didn't get the care that she needed. 427 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:36,920 Yes, that's called reparenting. 428 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:37,920 Yes. 429 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,100 You can go back adult. 430 00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:41,320 You can go back and talk to younger you. 431 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,400 What you just said, Debbie, is such a good segue for my next question and that is what 432 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,920 are some common signs or symptoms that someone may be experiencing during trauma? 433 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,800 How's it going to present? 434 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:54,800 Okay. 435 00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:03,040 We're looking at it from a coaching or a therapist point of view. 436 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,520 We're watching for dissociation when they're telling their story. 437 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:13,200 Is there a sense that they are talking about the event without emotion? 438 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,560 What they're doing is there's that and this is natural part of the debris of trauma is 439 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,960 that we learn to dissociate because feeling is very, very difficult. 440 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,680 It's painful. 441 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:29,040 People can be very matter of fact, but their stories are fragmented. 442 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:34,760 I'll have gals talking about, oh yeah, back in when I was seven or eight this happened 443 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:41,440 and then pretty soon they're in a five-year-old. 444 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:48,160 They kind of skip and skip around in their stories, but they get lost sometimes and then 445 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:55,160 we dissociate to from who we are. 446 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:02,680 For me, I'm this four-year-old girl sitting in the chair, but I don't see that at me today. 447 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,280 I don't look at that four-year-old in the chair, but when I go back and sit in that 448 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,960 chair I have to go, she was four years old. 449 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,360 What put her in the chair, she was four years old in doing what she was told to do, at least 450 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,840 in her head. 451 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:22,120 She was doing that, but then her dad got angry at her and sat her in a chair and told her 452 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,440 to stay there. 453 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:30,920 We have to put our stories into context to make sense and to sort of affirm to ourselves 454 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:37,520 was I did not get the repair I needed and I made up that I was a bad kid or I was confused 455 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,680 and now I'm stuck because I don't know how to move forward. 456 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,120 How does that impact me today? 457 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,680 Also watching when people are telling their stories of harm, especially even their betrayal 458 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,400 traumas, there's fragmentation. 459 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:59,160 They break it up and they flood with emotion sometimes and then they're going on about 460 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:04,360 ... They might be telling you about what it felt like to be betrayed in this marriage, 461 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,680 but then they start going back and fragmenting and telling other parts of the story or other 462 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:16,080 things that their husband did besides that. 463 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:22,320 It's also this lack of boundaries they have in their life about how they communicate emotions, 464 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:28,720 which is another part of their recovery process, is how do I communicate in a contained way 465 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,160 and moderation, how do I express that? 466 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,080 The big one is isolation. 467 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:42,360 When we examine and start looking at a person's life, they don't have any friends or they 468 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:48,440 have one friend or they don't feel like I've connected to anybody. 469 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,280 They're very isolated in their life and they don't have people that they have deep discussions 470 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:53,280 with. 471 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,840 I do have a couple of women that go, no, I have some good friends that she's able to 472 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:03,880 talk to and those people do a lot better in therapy than people who are just very isolated 473 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,320 in a lot of them. 474 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:11,640 Those three things, dissociation, fragmentation, and isolation are very signs that a person 475 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,280 needs to do some trauma work or story work, what I would call it. 476 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,280 That's good. 477 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,840 I'm going to try to connect a couple of dots here. 478 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:26,120 One of the things that I hear a lot in the recovery journey, something I personally experienced, 479 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,560 was a lack of my husband's emotions. 480 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,200 Boy, I would... You swear you could shake that guy. 481 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,680 You could not shake an emotion out of him. 482 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,780 I'm realizing now as we talk, when they're talking about things and have no emotions 483 00:31:41,780 --> 00:31:47,460 or feelings and they're just very matter of fact, definitely a sign of dissociation. 484 00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:52,320 Same thing when I was trying to wake him up to say, I'm going to leave and he'd have no 485 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,840 response at all, dissociation. 486 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,000 Which goes back and connects the dot here for me. 487 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,120 That is a part of the trauma I experienced in betrayal, the lack of. 488 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,840 It wasn't just the things he did that caused damage. 489 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:11,840 It was the lack. 490 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:19,520 His dissociation affected me profoundly because he could not show up in relationship. 491 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:27,200 I appreciate the context of what you put this relationally, Debbie, because even now, this 492 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,400 far into the process, I still feel like I'm learning about myself and about my husband, 493 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,200 about my responses to him. 494 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:42,480 Debbie, tell us, how can an individual begin to recognize and address this sort of trauma 495 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,800 in their own lives? 496 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:53,440 I think what you had just said is that if your husband is, I'm going on the record 497 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,200 of saying, I think everybody's experienced betrayal trauma at this level that I've talked 498 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,200 about. 499 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:06,040 That means that I think most addicted people as well. 500 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,140 So you're coming in, a wife would usually present coming in, I've been betrayed in my 501 00:33:10,140 --> 00:33:11,140 marriage. 502 00:33:11,140 --> 00:33:16,120 I've been with betrayal trauma, but he's had betrayal trauma as well. 503 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,720 It's just that that's part of that looking back and saying, what's the real war we are 504 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,280 both fighting? 505 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:27,360 And that's that inner war that was created relationally and patterned into us from our 506 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:33,140 family of origin of what was meant to be, what didn't happen. 507 00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:37,440 And then how can we move forward and change the inner structure? 508 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:44,680 And that's what I would do with story work is really is going back in your life. 509 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:52,400 I think finding some stability in your marriage is important, I think, to maybe start the 510 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:53,400 journey. 511 00:33:53,400 --> 00:34:01,720 It's like if your marriage was here in a, let's say you live in a house with a basement, 512 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,480 a tornado comes in, it'll wipe the house out. 513 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,160 So you're left with just the basement. 514 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,440 Are you going to live in the basement till the house is rebuilt? 515 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,800 But some people say, no, I'm going to hotel. 516 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,800 So it's sort of like, where am I going to find some sense of safety and security, at 517 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,340 least in the short term? 518 00:34:21,340 --> 00:34:23,200 What's going to be best for me as the wife? 519 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,500 Let's just say I'm on the train. 520 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:31,860 If I'm feeling I can't even look at him, his very presence in the room pushes all my buttons, 521 00:34:31,860 --> 00:34:36,920 I might need to leave for a while so I can get my body calm because all that trauma affects 522 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,920 your body and all of the feelings and emotions of betrayal if it's rejection. 523 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,800 So I've got to get centered somehow. 524 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:51,920 But if I'm got, he's watching pornography and he hasn't watched it in a couple of weeks 525 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,920 and he's in recovery, he's going to group and doing these things, I feel a little bit 526 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,880 safer with him, maybe staying in the basement while the house gets rebuilt is fine. 527 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,280 We can still be together. 528 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,800 So because the rebuilding process is going to start with a sense of a little bit of sense 529 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:12,760 of safety or stability, I would say, especially with my emotions. 530 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,760 Can I sit and not be triggered all the time? 531 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,160 Can I calm myself down if I'm angry? 532 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,120 We call it regulating. 533 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,080 That's what boundary work is about. 534 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,280 Boundary is about protecting my triggers. 535 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,720 Well, those comments trigger me. 536 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:29,720 Why is that? 537 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:35,880 But I have to protect my value and you doing that behavior devalues me so I have to be 538 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,120 away from it. 539 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:42,520 Or it's containing, that boundary contains me in that I can't just go off and start 540 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:48,680 yelling profanities at you because love is kind. 541 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,600 How do I love my enemy? 542 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,640 If I look at you as the enemy, the very minimum I've got to be respectful. 543 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,640 That's the minimum of love. 544 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:01,560 And I can't have warm affection for you, which is at the other end, but love is on the continuum. 545 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:07,400 And it's not always warm affection walking in the woods all the time. 546 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,880 That's not what marriage is. 547 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,160 Marriage is a continuum. 548 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,920 So how do I respect you even though I'm really, really angry at you right now? 549 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,100 That means I got to contain it and saying, you know what? 550 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:26,320 What you just did, really, really, I felt very disrespected when you did that. 551 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,480 And about that, I feel really angry. 552 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:29,480 That's my little script. 553 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:36,060 When I saw you roll your eyes at me, I felt so, I thought he is so disrespectful. 554 00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:40,960 And about that, I feel really angry right now. 555 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:41,960 Did you mean that? 556 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,240 No, I didn't mean it. 557 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:44,560 That's not what I meant. 558 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,160 Okay, then don't do that again, please. 559 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,000 Don't roll your eyes at me because that's contemptuous, by the way. 560 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,540 So it's like, hmm. 561 00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:56,880 So we've got to learn to communicate and that would be an honoring thing. 562 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,000 I want this relationship to work. 563 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:05,560 We need to repair this, this breach, this breach in our relationship or this, you know, 564 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,800 disconnection we have. 565 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,760 So using a script is one of the things I like to do. 566 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,760 So first thing I teach you, teach them is that boundary words is sort of like, I too 567 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:22,040 have to have boundaries in how I communicate my emotions to you because I want to be respectful. 568 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:28,360 I have to say that in the recovery process, you could probably attest to this, Debbie. 569 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:34,760 I think people like me don't think that they should, they don't get boundaries. 570 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:35,860 I get all the boundaries. 571 00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:39,520 They don't get to have any because they put themselves in this position and this is my 572 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,240 turn to be heard and say all the things that I need to say. 573 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:48,040 That's very common. 574 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,920 Boundaries are misunderstood. 575 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,280 Boundaries are not what you have to do in this relationship. 576 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,120 Boundaries is what I do. 577 00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:01,360 It's a self-imposed limit on what I will say and what I won't say, what I will do and what 578 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,360 I won't do. 579 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:09,760 And if I'm angry, for me, in my anger, I have been capable of saying some really mean, sarcastic 580 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:10,760 things. 581 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,920 I know what I'm tempted with and I know what I'm vulnerable to do and I don't want to be 582 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:16,920 that person. 583 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,560 I like that, Debbie. 584 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,640 Boundaries are what I will say, what I won't say, what I will do, what I won't do. 585 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,840 It really has nothing to do with it. 586 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:26,840 Self-imposed limits. 587 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:27,840 Nice. 588 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:28,840 A self-imposed limit. 589 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:38,880 It's like, when you told me you relapsed, I said to myself, oh my gosh, here we go again. 590 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,840 He hates me. 591 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,240 He doesn't love or care for me. 592 00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:44,480 I'm thinking those. 593 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,840 And about that, I feel scared. 594 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:52,960 I feel really scared that you don't love me. 595 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,200 That's what your behavior communicates to me. 596 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:04,160 Since I know that, so my boundary is, if you do that again, I'm leaving this marriage. 597 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,480 I mean, that's extreme, by the way. 598 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:12,120 Or you are going to leave the house for a week because I don't want to be around you. 599 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:17,520 I only am in a relationship in a marriage where I know somebody loves and cares for me. 600 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:18,520 That's my boundary. 601 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,000 That's a good one. 602 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,880 I have sex with, I don't have sex with people or anybody. 603 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,680 I don't have sex with you if I don't trust you. 604 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,400 And right now, I don't trust you. 605 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,720 So it's all about what I'm going to do based on my own boundaries. 606 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,000 What are your sexual boundaries? 607 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,960 Where do you draw the line? 608 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:46,640 And either I have the right to say when, with who, and how far I go sexually. 609 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:47,640 That's my privilege. 610 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,440 That's my boundary. 611 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:55,640 And when we start early recovery with couples, especially if they've been abstinent for quite 612 00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:02,600 a while, which is probably usually the case, we start with, it's got to be consensual. 613 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:08,120 When you reach out to touch your wife in the kitchen, right now ask for her permission 614 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,680 or vice versa. 615 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,720 You say, I'd like to hug you. 616 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:15,400 Is that okay? 617 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:16,400 That's good. 618 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:17,400 Yeah. 619 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,200 I was just talking with a client last week that was talking about that very topic and 620 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,200 that's great. 621 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,400 I love the ask permission until the trust is rebuilt and then the free form, free flowing 622 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,520 of the relationship can return, but it's going to take time. 623 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:38,680 It also gives us the opportunity to reach into identifying the need and then speaking 624 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:47,040 it because many of us are just so freaking compliant that even being asked to be touched 625 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:48,720 is foreign. 626 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:51,160 Being asked permission to be respected, that level's foreign. 627 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,080 So it is an exercise for some of us. 628 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,080 I cut you off, Chris. 629 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,080 I'm sorry. 630 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,080 Oh no, it's all good. 631 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,480 We're having a good conversation here. 632 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:06,800 It's also in my experience anyway, is that there's a message, especially as Christian 633 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,320 women that it's our duty. 634 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,460 We may not want this. 635 00:41:10,460 --> 00:41:14,720 We may not want to be touched in the kitchen, but it's our duty to allow our spouse to do 636 00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:17,280 that and that's not true. 637 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,000 That is not what God intended and that's not just a given. 638 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,320 Permission still exists there, especially if the trust has been broken. 639 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:36,720 I think that there's a lot of conversation that we could have about our sexuality as 640 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:39,120 Christian women and the whole idea. 641 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,120 That's a good topic. 642 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,120 We probably should. 643 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,120 I have a lot to say about that. 644 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,120 Yeah, we'll have to have a part two. 645 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,120 I love it. 646 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,120 I love it. 647 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,440 I like talking about sex too. 648 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:50,440 I know. 649 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:51,440 Right? 650 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:52,440 That's good. 651 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:53,440 That's healthy. 652 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,440 Debbie's got some sass in her. 653 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,520 She can really talk about the tough subjects for sure. 654 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:57,520 That's right. 655 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:58,520 Yeah. 656 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:03,280 Debbie, what would be some effective strategies or techniques for recovering from trauma? 657 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:09,080 You mentioned a few in the last little topic, the conversation that we had. 658 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,280 Yeah, what are some good strategies to recover from this? 659 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,080 I would say start. 660 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:20,960 If the woman is saying, okay, my husband betrayed me, the first place I'd start with them is 661 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:29,200 hearing their story, this betrayal story of what's happened, having them get that out. 662 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:36,440 We talk about your sexual timeline in this marriage. 663 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,520 What was your experience with that? 664 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,920 If it's a coupleship too, as he does his, they do them separately. 665 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,920 When I first met you, how did it lead to romance? 666 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,360 What was your courtship like? 667 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,120 How did that progress? 668 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:56,640 Because then your rebuilding on a courtship is like, maybe we take that three month break 669 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:02,640 from sex, but we have to go back to courting and really reestablishing the real bond that 670 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,480 should be there, that's not there. 671 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:14,160 But I think to be realistic, it was like a tsunami came into this marriage. 672 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,280 All her foundation is wiped away. 673 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,120 The foundation that kept this marriage together and usually, well, at least we're having sex, 674 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,280 but now there's no sex, so there's no foundation. 675 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:29,080 They have to start by what's the fastest way that you can rebuild trust with each other. 676 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:36,640 Well, she needs to discover what is it that created in our marriage any sense of lack 677 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,020 of trust? 678 00:43:38,020 --> 00:43:41,560 Why couldn't he bring this issue to me in the beginning? 679 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,680 What was it about the secrets that he was keeping that maybe he didn't feel safe enough 680 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,600 to share with me? 681 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,120 And vice versa with him, it's sort of like they both have to identify those kinds of 682 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:57,200 things and start there making commitments that they're going to work on that particular 683 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,400 issue. 684 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,920 And then to once there's some stability there, that's a rebuilding of trust there, at least 685 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,160 the fast highway of it. 686 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:13,840 I'm in therapy, I'm going to group, I'm learning about addiction, I'm taking ownership of what 687 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:24,240 I do, I've got accountability, I'm learning to be non-judgmental, I'm being accountable 688 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:29,720 and I'm working from a sense of value and I'm working on my sense of self. 689 00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:32,840 And following that is going back to your stories of harm. 690 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,240 What's the debris? 691 00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:39,960 What is the debris that I carry into this relationship and my style of relating? 692 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,840 I need to identify, fight, flight, freeze and fawning. 693 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:48,080 If I don't, I'm going to always be reactive to that. 694 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:55,040 And so I've got to learn how to deal with that and know what my temptations are and 695 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,000 finding a calmness to my body. 696 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:06,600 As you're talking, Debbie, I was just reading in for Samuel and you're talking about what's 697 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,120 the war we're fighting? 698 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:09,520 What's the origin story? 699 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,520 You've got a trauma response, go back to your childhood and figure out your earliest traumas 700 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,600 and make that connection to the trauma you're experiencing now. 701 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:24,080 And there's this really curious passage, I think it's in first Samuel chapter three, 702 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:33,760 maybe two, but Saul has been recognized by the Lord said, Samuel, Saul is going to be 703 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,200 the king and go find him and anoint him. 704 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,280 So it's been announced the people of Israel have asked for a king, they're all excited 705 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:47,360 and now they're all gathered to coronate Saul as the first king of Israel. 706 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,160 And it's like, okay, they did the speeches, they did all the things and now, okay, Saul, 707 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,480 come on up and Saul's nowhere to be found. 708 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,320 And the Lord tells Samuel, he's hiding in the baggage. 709 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,680 It literally says he's hiding in the baggage. 710 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,940 So this man that was, the Bible says, head and shoulders taller than any other man in 711 00:46:05,940 --> 00:46:08,840 all of Israel and he is the most handsome man. 712 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,140 He is the most glorious man. 713 00:46:10,140 --> 00:46:14,320 He's a fine specimen of a man, the Bible's telling us, right? 714 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,280 And here he is hiding in the baggage. 715 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,180 Now I know that was literal. 716 00:46:19,180 --> 00:46:25,040 He was hiding amongst boxes and bags and things, supplies. 717 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:30,960 But metaphorically, what baggage are we hiding in within our marriage or within our relationships? 718 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:38,240 What baggage do we need to deal with because God called him out of the baggage to be king. 719 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,120 And I don't know, as you were talking, I was just thinking about that. 720 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:45,200 That is a, it's what we're all called to do. 721 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:50,600 So I love these steps that you're talking about because you're talking about refragmenting. 722 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:51,960 We're bringing the fragments together. 723 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,200 We're not isolating anymore. 724 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,200 We're being authentic. 725 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,960 We're finding our safe inner circle. 726 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,320 We're telling our story. 727 00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:59,840 And I love that. 728 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:06,360 We talk about it all the time, that Anne Voskamp quote, that shame dies when stories are told 729 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:07,520 in safe places. 730 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:15,280 So having a therapist or a clinician, someone to talk to, yeah, learning, finding out, getting 731 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,760 the data of what's happening to us. 732 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:18,760 Yeah. 733 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:19,760 Yeah. 734 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:27,040 It's like, it's like a, we're a tapestry and we've got to be unraveled before, before getting 735 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,280 back to the story is we have a beginning, a middle. 736 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,580 Now how are you going to rewrite the end? 737 00:47:32,580 --> 00:47:40,080 You and God can rewrite the ending of this story as he, as you unravel that, that, that 738 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:45,800 tapestry that didn't get put together correctly or, you know, honoring, and then you're now 739 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:50,000 he's going to reweave it to the design that he intended for you. 740 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:55,600 But, but, but the reweaving requires is still that old fabric, but it's going to be reweaved. 741 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,600 So you're still going to be you. 742 00:47:58,600 --> 00:47:59,600 That's good. 743 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:00,600 That's good. 744 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,360 I keep thinking of that song, I am unwritten or unwritten. 745 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:09,760 That comes to mind so often as I, as I think about this, that to me brings so much hope 746 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,120 because, because it isn't finished. 747 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:17,520 A lot of times we, we continue with the narrative that we're currently experiencing as if this 748 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:22,680 is the end of the story, forgetting that there is still a story that is continuing and the 749 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,880 power we have to engage in that story and, and write a different ending. 750 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:37,040 I have a quick, maybe not so quick, but I have a question regarding stories and during 751 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:42,900 this process, there's, you share some of your story with some people and you share aspects 752 00:48:42,900 --> 00:48:47,600 of your story with others, or maybe you share all of your story with some people. 753 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:54,280 When we are looking to connect with others or let's just say we are supporting someone 754 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:55,800 in their story. 755 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,120 Sometimes it's scary to share the details. 756 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,800 We're not sure how it's going to be received. 757 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:06,360 Dan and I had shared stuff in the beginning and we had friends that ran the other way, 758 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,200 or we have like my mom who wasn't able to handle the heaviness of my story, but yet 759 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,160 these are people that loved us. 760 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,640 They were people who wanted to support us. 761 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:24,280 So could you speak, Debbie, to those who want to support people that are going through betrayal 762 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,400 trauma and addiction recovery? 763 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:34,120 I think of these, these dear hearts, my mom and these specific friends who wanted to be 764 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,000 there, but they didn't know how to handle the story. 765 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:44,040 Do you have any insight on how someone can support those who are dealing with betrayal 766 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,960 trauma and addiction recovery? 767 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:53,560 I think if you have a story to tell and you have like a friend that you think is to, is 768 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:59,680 to first say, you know what, I'd like to, is it okay if I share with you my story? 769 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,880 And then, and then to add in there, how would you like them to respond? 770 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:09,320 Because what happens, what happens when, what happens when you're listening to somebody 771 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:15,760 if you're not prepared or, or if you're, if, or if you're a very anxious person there, 772 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,680 or you know, like I know my mom, I wouldn't necessarily talk to her about a lot of things 773 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,660 because she wants to fix it. 774 00:50:21,660 --> 00:50:27,920 And so, so it's like, okay, I don't need you to fix it, but I just need to really talk 775 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:28,920 about that. 776 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,420 And, and that's really being more discerning about who I share my story with, but it's 777 00:50:33,420 --> 00:50:36,200 also respectful to that other person. 778 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:41,000 They might not have the, they might not have the capacity because when you're empathetic, 779 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,800 you're able to sit and listen to somebody without judgment. 780 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,560 And so if you, if you are, if you feel anxious when somebody's talking about it and you think 781 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,800 what should I say next? 782 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,520 What do they want from me? 783 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,360 You're in anxiety, so you're not going to be the best listener. 784 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:03,680 So usually it's sort of like, okay, I would, I just, you know, when I'm, when I'm telling 785 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,960 Harry, my husband, you know, some personal things or something that's vulnerable, I just 786 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:08,960 want him to listen. 787 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,440 I don't want him to make comment. 788 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,160 And he finds that I can just start talking about it. 789 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:19,880 Then I'm like, oh, then I go to, you know, because he, then he hears it all where before 790 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:25,200 I would not say anything because he used to want to fix it, you know, or he, you know, 791 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,140 change the narrative a little bit. 792 00:51:27,140 --> 00:51:35,400 So, so letting people know how you want, how you would like them to respond or, you know, 793 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:42,120 in at, and offering if at any time you start feeling anxious to just say, well, wait, let's 794 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:43,120 take a breather. 795 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:48,520 So you giving them that opportunity to kind of stop the story and let's take a breath. 796 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,560 That's a lot, you know, so. 797 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:51,560 Wow. 798 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,780 That is, that's very empowering to let someone know exactly what you're needing. 799 00:51:55,780 --> 00:52:00,680 And then also giving them the permission if it's too much to, to say, Hey, you know. 800 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:01,680 Yes. 801 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:06,100 I didn't learn that skillset until afterward. 802 00:52:06,100 --> 00:52:11,120 One of the things that you've, that I've learned from you, Jen, is you'll, you'll call and 803 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,720 say, okay, I need to talk about something. 804 00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:14,960 I don't want you to fix it. 805 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:15,960 I just want to be known. 806 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,960 Well, yeah, but that's after 10 years of therapy. 807 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:20,960 Yes, but it works. 808 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:21,960 The therapy works. 809 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:23,920 And that's such a great takeaway. 810 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,960 And I love what you said there too, Debbie, about asking permission. 811 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,920 Because sometimes our stories of trauma, most of the time trauma is heavy. 812 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:39,480 And there might be, there might be some situations where people don't want to know this or they 813 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,600 don't have the capacity to hold that. 814 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,840 Maybe they have their own trauma they're dealing with, or, or maybe they don't have the skills, 815 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,840 you know, necessary to hold that story with us. 816 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,560 So asking permission, I got something going on. 817 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,920 This is, you know, do you want to know this? 818 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:54,920 May I share this with you? 819 00:52:54,920 --> 00:53:00,560 It's such a beautiful thing to not burden other people, you know, as we're, especially 820 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:05,920 in the beginning of healing from any kind of trauma, as we're identifying our inner 821 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,960 circle, you know, we might have really important people that we love and that we've done life 822 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:15,440 with and we've got these great histories with, but they might not be our person in the healing 823 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:16,440 process. 824 00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:17,440 Right. 825 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:18,440 Exactly. 826 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:19,440 Yeah. 827 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,440 Yeah. 828 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:27,240 So, you know, our own wounding is sometimes we misinterpret another person's behavior, 829 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:30,760 you know, we make up, well, they didn't call, call me back. 830 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,680 I called them and asked them and they didn't call, call me back. 831 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,840 So they interpret that as a rejection. 832 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,160 They perceive it as a rejection and they take offense to it. 833 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:44,280 When really you went then fast forward a week or two, the person calls back and they said, 834 00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,920 well, my mother, I had to put my mother in a nursing home. 835 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:47,920 Right. 836 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:49,680 So they find the real truth out. 837 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:50,680 So yeah. 838 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:51,680 Yeah. 839 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:52,680 Yeah. 840 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:53,680 Good point. 841 00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:54,680 Yes. 842 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,120 Well, this has been such a great conversation and definitely we would love to invite you 843 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:05,080 back for another one because this was not enough time, but in closing for this conversation, 844 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,680 Debbie, is there a word of encouragement you'd like to share with our listeners? 845 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,080 Yeah. 846 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:20,280 Take the time and to honor yourself and, and discover your story. 847 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:26,200 Kind of, I, I think it's an honoring thing to do to attune to ourselves and understand 848 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:32,240 what, you know, where, where did I not get attuned to and that I am worthy of that or 849 00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:36,760 I am valuable enough to attune, to be attuned to. 850 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:41,060 And that's where that inner healing with God's going to come from as well is when you open 851 00:54:41,060 --> 00:54:48,120 yourself up to the wounds that for me, that little four year old and, and then what, what 852 00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:50,880 did that four year old do to get attention? 853 00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,480 What did she do to fit in? 854 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,520 What did she make up about herself? 855 00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:00,920 And, and, and fast forward to why did that, my four year old, why did she hate her personality 856 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:02,000 so much? 857 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:06,640 Why did she want to be this person and not who God intended to be? 858 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,780 And that the, in the shame of that. 859 00:55:08,780 --> 00:55:16,440 So when we connect and make those appropriate contextual discoveries about ourselves, we're 860 00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:21,400 able to be more authentic in our relationships and set the boundaries about how people treat 861 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:22,400 us. 862 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,440 I, you know, you know, I don't, I don't want to be in a relationship with somebody that 863 00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:32,760 calls me names or implies that I'm stupid, but I've got to take, I got to be less judgmental 864 00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,760 about that and discover what did they really mean? 865 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:41,000 So it's, it helps, it helps the relationship move forward when you can be authentic and 866 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,600 boundaried in your relationships. 867 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:51,000 And the only way we can really do that is to show up for ourselves. 868 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:56,240 Instead of waiting for others to show up for us, because maybe they don't have the capacity 869 00:55:56,240 --> 00:56:02,200 to, but to show up well for ourselves, to, to advocate for ourselves, to know ourselves 870 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,880 on that level, to be curious about ourselves, all these things that equip us to show up 871 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:14,080 well in our lives, which will honestly truly expedite the healing process and get us that 872 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:15,960 much closer to the post-traumatic growth. 873 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,440 People all the time say, say, I just want to press fast forward. 874 00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:20,440 Okay. 875 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:21,440 I'm like, okay, here's how you do it. 876 00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:22,440 They don't like that answer. 877 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:28,760 I think, I think one of the ITAP presenters says it's like couples come in and they want 878 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:29,760 to go to the moon. 879 00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:34,480 And then he's like, okay, but do you have a spaceship? 880 00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:35,480 No. 881 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:36,680 Oh, how do you build one? 882 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:37,680 Oh, I don't know. 883 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:42,680 And then it's like, oh wait, I have to take calculus and I have to know math. 884 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,560 And then, so we have to start at the beginning and that, that beginning is starting with 885 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,800 who we are in this relationship. 886 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,720 Not what was done to me, but who am I? 887 00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:56,120 Oh, and that's the bow on the conversation right there. 888 00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:57,320 That was beautiful. 889 00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:58,960 Who am I? 890 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:04,080 That is one of the most powerful things that we can do is be able to articulate your identity 891 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,920 and that's great work to pursue in this healing process. 892 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:12,680 So on that note, Debbie, thank you so much for being a guest on our podcast. 893 00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:13,680 You're welcome. 894 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:14,680 It was delightful and informative. 895 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:15,680 It was fun being here. 896 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:16,680 Yeah. 897 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:17,680 Good. 898 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:18,680 It was fun. 899 00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:19,680 I, I, we've enjoyed it very much. 900 00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,420 I can tell because the listeners can't see us, but Jen and I have been ear to ear smiles 901 00:57:22,420 --> 00:57:23,420 the whole time. 902 00:57:23,420 --> 00:57:24,420 Yeah. 903 00:57:24,420 --> 00:57:25,420 My face hurts. 904 00:57:25,420 --> 00:57:26,420 Yeah. 905 00:57:26,420 --> 00:57:27,420 So good. 906 00:57:27,420 --> 00:57:28,420 I'm so glad. 907 00:57:28,420 --> 00:57:32,560 So thank you listeners for tuning in and being a part of our podcast community. 908 00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:36,880 Your support is valuable and we're here to serve you and we'd love to hear from you. 909 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,440 If you want to contact Jen and I, we've got an email address. 910 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,660 It's the BRT podcast at gmail.com. 911 00:57:43,660 --> 00:57:45,560 We've got an Instagram. 912 00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,800 It's the dot BRT dot podcast. 913 00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:53,880 Um, and yeah, there's lots of ways to get ahold of us, but we'd love to hear from you. 914 00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:59,600 And if you have ideas on, uh, guests you'd like us to invite, if you have questions you'd 915 00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,880 like to have answered, et cetera, please, please reach out. 916 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:10,240 But on that note, everyone have a great, uh, we'll have a great life until we meet again 917 00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:14,160 here on the betrayal recovery transformation podcast. 918 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,920 We'll see you here soon. 919 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,620 Thank you for joining us for this episode of the betrayal recovery transformation podcast 920 00:58:22,620 --> 00:58:25,400 with your hosts, Chris Rocha and Jen Howey. 921 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,280 We hope you've been helped and encouraged. 922 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:31,800 If you value the content we shared today, please feel free to rate, subscribe and leave 923 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:32,940 a review. 924 00:58:32,940 --> 00:58:34,980 This helps others find the show. 925 00:58:34,980 --> 00:58:36,680 Need personalized guidance. 926 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,280 Please contact Chris or Jen for transformative coaching. 927 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:45,600 This episode has been brought to you by healing with the Howey's.com watermark coach.com 928 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:53,760 and with the support of pure life Alliance ministries.