Ben and Spencer.
Welcome to the Love and Context podcast of Unscripted Conversation with Ben and Spencer.
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or wherever you're at.
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Welcome to the Love and Context podcast with Ben and Spencer.
I'm Ben and that guy over there is Spencer.
You can't see me gesticulating, but he's over there.
We have a special guest with us this week, a person we referenced a few times on the
podcast in a good way because now he's getting a little nervous over there.
But we have our, our pastor Clint on the podcast.
Say hi, Clint.
Hello.
Yeah.
So he is a little out of sorts because we definitely shanghaied him into coming.
Well, to be fair, Ben's advertisement of what we were doing was a little misleading to Clint,
but you know, we're here.
We're gonna have a great time.
Hey, listen, I'm responsible for the sale, not for the remorse after the sale.
So yeah, we're glad you're here.
We have been high stepping through Torah.
And so last week we talked about the Red Sea.
We talked about worship in the desert.
We talked about this whole thing with quail and manna and all the things that God's kind
of doing in those things.
As you recall, Pastor Nick was on that podcast, but this week we're going to be in Exodus
chapter 18.
If you haven't read your Bible, confused on how you got to this podcast.
But if you haven't read this section in a while, positive podcast, go to Exodus chapter
18, read it, and then come back.
Cause we're going to have a conversation revolving around Exodus 18.
And to be fair today, we are going to use this passage, this springboard off into a
topic that we think is really important.
So just want a fair warning on that.
All right.
So Exodus 18, there's been a bunch of stuff happening.
They've gone through, they cross through the Red Sea.
There's water from a rock.
The Israelites have grumbled, all sorts of different things have happened.
And then they come to this point where Jethro, his father-in-law hears about the things that
have been going on with Israel.
And he says, he sends word.
And by the way, I love this, by the way, Jethro says, I, your father-in-law, Jethro, am coming
you to you with your wife and your two sons.
I just, I love that he has to clarify I, Jethro.
Like how many Jethro's do you think Moses knows?
I don't know, but Moses knows quite a bit of people.
Knows quite a bit.
Is that grammatically correct?
Yes.
I also do, did notice here that it says, cause we're dealing with some cultural things here,
that when Moses shows up and Jethro shows up, Moses goes and greets him with a kiss.
Now I'm on good terms with my father-in-law, but Clint, when's the last time you greeted
your father-in-law with a kiss?
Usually handshake.
Obviously we're dealing with the cultural thing in this, in this instance.
I'm with you on the handshake thing though.
That's usually all it takes on my end too.
Coming in to verse 14, it says, when his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people,
he said, what is this you are doing for the people?
Why do you alone sit as judge while all these people stand around you morning till evening?
Moses answered him, because the people come to me to seek God's will.
Whenever they have a dispute, it's brought to me and I decide between the parties and
inform them of God's decrees and instructions.
Moses's father replied, what you were doing is not good.
You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out.
The work is too heavy for you.
You cannot handle it alone.
Which by the way, do you get some serious vibes from like creation story?
Totally.
Yeah, totally do.
God's saying it's not good for man to be alone, right?
What you are by yourself is not enough.
You actually need partnership.
You need community.
Yeah, community is huge.
And if you don't catch that throughout the Old Testament, and God keeps coming back to
that topic right there of not doing things alone.
You see that in Genesis and creation.
You see that through Noah's story, even though Noah and his family were selected as the survivors
of the flood, there was still a community aspect that goes with that.
And you see that through Abraham's story, all the way through Joseph and now into Exodus
as well.
Like it keeps going that thing.
One of the things that has troubled me growing up in the church and ministry in general is
that pastors have a tendency to burn out, right?
You've seen that, right, Clint?
Very much so.
Yeah.
It is not good.
I think about when Paul talks, he says, hey, listen, some of you are going to be preachers.
Some of you are going to be teachers.
Some of you are going to be pastors.
Some of you are going to be evangelists.
And they were like, hey, we'll hire a guy, pay him 60 grand a year.
And he gets to do all of that, right?
Things probably like the modern day setup.
When we started looking at pastoral leadership as a job compared to a calling, that the expectation
now is that we're going to give this individual X amount of dollars and in doing so, we want
them to do X amount of work, which is usually far and beyond just the pastoral component.
It becomes the outreach.
It becomes the evangelism.
Comes the discipleship.
It becomes the church maintenance, organizing and leading the deacons or the leadership
boards.
And they end up becoming all those things because we've attached financial benefit and
then staff responsibilities to it.
It's a very dangerous position to be in because we were talking, I think it was a couple of
weeks ago, about the whole idea behind pastoral and shepherding and all this.
You're actually meant to equip the body for service, right?
That novel concept.
How many times in church ministry have you had people be like, well, the pastor needs
to come and talk to my friend?
And you're like, well, I'm pretty sure that God put it on your heart.
You should probably talk to him.
It's a topic that we go off and we discuss often.
A lot of it is this idea that the pastor is going to be the answer for all of these life
situations and life interactions.
Because we don't equip individuals to do the calling that God's placed on their lives.
They become kind of an intercessor where they make contact with people, but for some reason
they don't feel like they can handle it or do it alone.
They want to bring it back to what I guess some people could just consider to be the
church leadership because they're going to have the right answer or they're going to
have the means to be able to deal with this where for our perspective is that if God placed
them in your life, he did it for a very specific reason because he believes and knows that
you're capable of meeting that need.
But we just have to be willing to step out in that.
I feel like what you're saying is like the Holy Spirit in me is just as powerful as the
one in you.
Oh, it is by far.
Yes.
I've served in pastoral positions that Spencer has as well.
Somebody comes and they say, we'll come and talk to this person.
I was like, I don't know anything about them.
I've got no relationship.
And you're like, oh, we'll come talk to them about Jesus.
I was like, I don't even know.
How does Jesus fit into their life?
Who are they?
And on a broad level, sure, you can proclaim the gospel.
You can talk about how Jesus has made an impact in your life.
But I was thinking about that song, Good, Good Father that Chris Tomlin wrote.
Some people struggle with that song because they grew up in a household where father meant
something completely different.
Right.
And if I don't know that coming into the conversation, I'm like, well, God is a good father, you
know, who does good for his kids.
And they're like, I don't know what that means.
I have no idea.
So how do we expect the pastor to be able to come in and like step in that situation?
But what you can do and you've done for us for a number of times is you have come and
put a steady hand on something we're already doing.
And then like, let me offer a piece of guidance, a piece of direction that's going to help
you shape this into something that's going to maybe be a little better for you.
And for the record, he does that with Ben a lot more than me.
So I just wanted to throw that out there.
I am the problem child.
So I am the Jacob, but I also get things done.
So you're welcome.
There's an echo over to Acts chapter six, where the disciples were brought a dispute
saying, they're like, hey, there's unfair food distributions amongst the Gentiles and
Jewish believers.
And a disciple said, all right, we need to not be distracted by this.
But what we're going to do is we're going to appoint people to take care of this.
But they're like, our focus needs to be proclaiming the gospel.
When I read that story, I can't help but wonder if the disciples are thinking of Jethro and
Moses in this moment where Jethro is like, yo, Moses, this is way too much.
You can't do it all.
You need people around you.
Right.
Well, I think there's probably going to be a connection also with numbers 11 when God
says I'm going to take a piece of the spirit that's on you and I'm going to put it on the
72.
These are similar ideas.
It's too much for one person to do.
When God's kingdom is going to go forward, we have to learn how to delegate and more
specifically trust the spirit of God and the other people too.
Right.
How scary is it?
You're the only one in faith that you trust.
Right.
Well, it's not just scary.
It's a problem.
Yeah.
I was thinking about, so we sang this at the sing inspiration that song where it says,
I've decided to follow Jesus.
Right.
And the other verse to that is, if none go with me, still I will follow, which sounds
really good, but I got news for you.
If you're the only one going, you might not be heading toward Jesus.
Like that might be a problem because I guarantee you there's somebody else who's supposed to
go that way too.
Right.
Yeah.
When you're heading towards Jesus, you're supposed to be bringing others along with
you.
When we're following after Jesus, we're supposed to be finding people around us and bringing
them along with us.
Like whether they currently follow Jesus or don't follow Jesus.
Like we're supposed to, the people that God has entrusted in our sphere of influence,
we're supposed to be coming alongside them and bringing Christ to them on a daily basis.
So if you're striving to follow after Jesus, other people should be coming along with you
at some point.
Right.
It shouldn't just be you doing it alone.
Yeah.
Well, I think it's the basis of between like trusting what God has in store for you and
trusting you.
Like it's easy to trust ourselves.
You know, in the ministry that we're doing, but to trust that God has a bigger plan that
involves you as a piece of it, but only as a piece of it.
You're not the whole puzzle.
And when we can step out in that fear to be like, Hey God, like I've just got to trust
that I'm going to release the responsibility that for whatever reason I feel that I need
to control and hold onto and I'm going to give it out to the body and allow for the
body to take this and move forward with it.
I think that's the really difficult part of letting go.
And I think you get wise men and women like Jethro who come and you know, they can be
just a word of wisdom for somebody who is just stuck in the midst of trying to do everything
because they want it to be done well.
They want it to be done right.
They want to honor God in the process.
But in doing so, you know, we're, we're taking these really special opportunities that someone
else could, could take and build off of.
And we're, we're holding onto them.
I've always viewed it like inviting someone to coffee.
If you invite a couple people to coffee and then you throw all of your crap all over the
seats at the table you're sitting at and be like, Oh, well you're welcome, but you can
stand.
Like how long are they going to stick around?
Or you're like, you're welcome to sit here, but I'm drinking all the coffee.
Yeah.
Right.
How long are they going to stick around?
I mean, if you're drinking all the coffee, we're not sticking around long.
Yeah.
Oh, right.
Exactly.
I've always viewed it that way of like, if you're inviting people in to be a part of
a team of ministry, like there's gotta be a seat at the table for them.
There's gotta be a cup of coffee for them to drink.
Yeah, and I think, you know, I think it's just a lot of it is, you know, personalities
rate of, you know, like I've been placed in this leadership position.
So my responsibility is to lead.
Right.
But our different perspectives and experiences in life is, you know, I, I got the opportunity
in a lot of different scenarios to see where pastoral leadership has struggled and the
hardships of that and what happens when you take on too much.
And when we talk about longevity of ministry, I remember sitting down with someone and they
were going over like, you know, the last like 50 years of our church and how each pastoral
group was there for like anywhere from four years, I think up to a max of like nine years,
but like five years, four or five years was kind of the, that, that point where, you know,
just kind of hang around before they kind of move on to somewhere else.
And it just makes you really wonder, you know, I always hear this concept like God's calling
me somewhere else, but I always feel like, I don't feel like God calls me and like, yo
yo's me all over the place.
Like he calls me here for a couple of years and he calls me there for a couple of years.
Like I know God moves us and he transitions us, but in pastoral leadership, to me, if
you're called to pastoral leadership, you know, oftentimes we're placed in a place for
reason and it takes time.
It takes time to build the church and it doesn't happen overnight.
And when you talk about four or five years, that's a, I mean, that's just a couple of
turns of the page.
I mean, it happens so fast and very little gets done in those times, but now we're talking
about, you know, 10 years and then we're, you know, 15 years and 20 years.
I mean, that's the, that's the really building foundations and stuff.
It takes time.
Well, and I think it's interesting because I've heard that in a statement where people
say, well, God called me elsewhere, right?
Just my opinion.
And I think I've got some biblical basis for it is that God's not going to call you in
isolation.
How many times, okay, well, Spencer, you, you use ministry, right?
How many times does a kid say, God is calling me to marry this girl.
She is going to be my wife, right?
When they're like 14 and a half, they haven't even figured out how to drive yet or practice
proper hygiene in a lot of cases.
So I've worked in these ministry for 15 years now.
I have seen one instance where that's worked out one majority of the time it has not worked
out at all.
Yeah.
But yeah, I mean, there are, but there are times where students are like, oh, well, this
is the one and the Lord's told me I'm going to marry her.
Right.
And I'm like, interesting.
I really think you're just manifesting something for yourself and right.
Maybe that comes true and we do that all too often in ministry as well.
Yeah.
It's not just, not just relationship things like, you know, you're upset with your job
and oh, God is calling me to somewhere that I got to be around other believers.
I was like, what makes you think God wants you to be around other believers?
He wants you to be a solid line in the world.
You know, he wants you to go and actually talk to people who need the kingdom, right?
That's where you're supposed to be.
You're like, oh, it's just not light in here.
I got news for you.
You're the light of the world.
Turn it on.
Right.
And that's one of the pieces there is to understand that, you know, ministry at times, especially
in pastoral leadership is not always about the big fireworks and stuff.
There's moments and years of struggle sometimes and there's times of little growth and then
there's times where you see these really like where God really starts to begin, you know,
to show himself and you see growth and you see these amazing moments where people get
on fire for God and you know, they just, where God starts to really do all this work and
then all of a sudden you're in a lull again, like you're in these valleys, you know, and
I think for a lot of people they get in these valleys and they last a little too long for
them and they start looking over the fence and being like, well, maybe I can be used
in a greater purpose somewhere else, right?
Where sometimes God just wants us to keep pressing forward.
And I'm not saying that's always the answer, but I think sometimes it's easy to just cut
and run sometimes to go a different direction if we don't feel like we're having this,
the huge impact maybe that we want or the huge leadership, you know, a growth that we
want.
Yeah.
So with that, with that idea, actually Psalm one, which you're familiar with is blesses
the one who does not walk in the step with the wicked or stand in the way of the sinners
take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the Lord who
meditates on his law day and night.
That person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season
whose leaf does not wither whatever they do, prospers.
Well, so if you know anything about herbiculture, yeah, I said it in Israel, then there is a
tree that yields fruit in its season and deals with like both good years and bad years.
It's called a Tamarisk tree and it's by the streams of the water, these wadis where the
flood waters will come through and the tree will suck up moisture, but it may only get
water once every three or four years, but when the water hits, it just produces fruit.
Right.
And it's, it's always in the position, even though it might look dead, it's always in
a position ready to absorb anything that comes this way and produce fruit.
And I think a lot of the times we're sitting there as Tamarisk trees and we're like, ah,
man, it's dead, it's dead, it's dead.
And the wave is coming.
Right.
And like we, we bail and we go to where the Tamarisk tree is producing fruit, not realizing
that we're actually supposed to be planted firmly by this water waiting on what God is
doing.
And I don't know, that's always the case, but I think that when we're just getting unsettled
in our walk, that's a lot of it.
Yeah.
And I think it's been, again, so much of it comes down to trust, right?
So I've, I have to trust God in these, these moments, you know, where I don't feel like
there's a lot of this spirit moving, taking place, but there's, but there's these like
underground flowing water that's taking place where people are, you know, individual people
are growing, but maybe you're not seeing growth as far as like growth in numbers of church,
but you're seeing growth in individual people.
And also, you know, church is also a place where, you know, oftentimes we, we have to
hit a certain degree of healing, you know, that needs to take place.
And healing takes time and it doesn't happen overnight.
And so, you know, it was, it was one of those interesting perspectives, you know, when Pastor
Nick and I, when we stepped into, you know, our positions and like co-pastorial ship and,
and stepping into the church was this is our home, right?
This is our home.
This is our church.
And I stepped into it being like, I may not be the most qualified pastor here and I may
not be the very best fit, but what I can do is I can offer the church consistency and
I can offer the church, like my talents and the, the best that I can offer to it.
And I can give it some time to heal, you know, and I can give it some time to grow.
And I think that was kind of the stepping in of like co-pastorial ship was like, I also
had to trust Nick in the process as well.
Right.
So can you explain what you mean by co-pastorial?
So co-pastorial ship.
So a lot of times a church will be founded where you have one, one leadership pastor,
right?
One senior pastor.
He is like the tip of the pyramid there.
Like he's the one in charge.
Everything else will flow down from that.
They're also the ones who usually take the brunt of all of the responsibilities of the
church.
So in co-pastorial ship, there's the reason why we, we really looked at it.
Co-pastorial ship is about sharing the ministry responsibilities.
And so I take the process of the lead pastor, cause we believe in everything.
There has to be someone who like has to make a decision in some like day-to-day functions
of a church and stuff like that.
But in ministry concerns, the co-pastorial ship is about sharing the vision, sharing
the responsibilities, sharing the direction of the church where everything that flows
through that's ministry wise, we take an opportunity to, to both inevitably have say, have responsibility
in it.
And then we go the one step further is the co-pastorial ship.
We extend to, you know, our youth pastor, we extend to our, our leadership team because
I believe that the, the church organization was never set to be put upon the shoulders
of one person.
It was to be set upon the shoulders of the believers because the church is not the pastor.
The church is the body and the head of that church can only be Jesus.
Right.
So on a broader level, the church in our city isn't just our church.
It's all the churches together as we work together.
Right.
So did you, when you came, when you guys explored, when you did the co-pastorial model, did you
model that after somebody who else did that, like another church or organization?
Yeah.
So I think the, the basis of what we were, what we were looking at was I was bivocational
at the time and felt that that was going to be the best situation for the church was not
to try to sustain, you know, like a salary for one person.
I thought that if we stayed bivocational, that what we'd be able to do is we'd be able
to take the resources and not just front load them on a, on a person, but we could keep
those resources for the church and for our missionaries and, and for the community.
And so I started looking around and I knew of co-pastorial ship in general, right?
Because like I look at the model of the early church and I look at, you know, we have Peter
who was like, you know, like who is considered to be like the head of the church, but they
had this council, you know, that would meet and they would talk.
And it wasn't just like, you know, apostle Peter's rule on everything, right?
It wasn't his decision on everything.
It was, it was a conversation.
It was a prayer.
It was coming to God.
And, and, and I, I found it was just dangerous to try to do things alone.
Right.
And so I started looking up just co-pastorial ship, how it works, like ways it works, how
successful it is.
And when I did that, like just my research with it, I just, I started looking at it and
I just says like, this looks like the church.
Like as I read in scripture in the new Testament, the book of acts is like, this looks like the
church.
Right.
And I was like, this is the church that I want because I'm very, I was very aware at
that time what it was to over, to try to take on too much responsibility.
Right.
And I had those conversations from my wife, you know, having, you know, young kids in
one season of my life.
I think I was so busy with pastoral work that I think within a one month period, I had three
different people that were like, you know, important people to me that knew me really
well that came and talked to me.
It was just like, you know, clench, you're doing too much.
You have a responsibility at home as well.
You can't, you cannot be out of balance with that.
Yeah.
And so.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I definitely had a Jethro speaking to me.
Yeah.
And so that's what we did is we just said, Hey, this is what I can do.
And I want, I want everyone to come along with me.
I want to walk in this ministry side by side.
I don't want you just to follow me.
And so that was, that was kind of a pivotal point for us.
And it was a model that not everybody like feels super comfortable with just because
I think of more tradition of, of how church kind of looks like, you know, and kind of
the modern U S being by vocational.
Have you found that you have been able to reach the community better than just being
full time as pastor?
Yeah.
I think that one's, it's an interesting caveat because, you know, you can think of it as
a double edged sword, right?
So sometimes when you're are the, like your only job is pastor, everybody sees you as
pastor, right?
But when you're by vocational, they see you in a lot of different lights, which gives
you different opportunities, right?
But sometimes I don't know if you're always taken as serious as like, you're like being
like a full time in full time ministry, like maybe like not as committed or not as available
or, you know, so like sometimes I'm, you know, because I wear multiple hats in the community
and people know me from different pieces, but then sometimes they just, they'll know
me as like, as this happened, then they'll be like, Oh, but you know, Oh, I heard you're
also a pastor, you know?
And so it's like a side caveat to it as well, which I find this kind of, it's kind of entertaining
because you know, cause I am flipping hats within the community and, and I think it surprises
people at times.
Last weekend I was at the coffee shop and it was really strange.
I waited for my coffee and I just hear an overhear conversation, like two tables down.
They're like, Oh yeah, do you know that teacher Clint?
You know, and they're like, also, you know, he's a pastor in town.
And I'm like, this is a very strange conversation for me to just be like, it was all good things,
but like, it was a very strange conversation for me to just kind of like be eavesdropping.
I was like, well, I know, I know Clinton.
It was like, I'm not, I'm not going to go in that conversation, but it was, it was just
very interesting.
Not everybody can be biblical.
Yeah.
Like it's, it's not super easy because you got to be able to do both of those things,
especially in the new Testament where you see like Paul going through and working and
making tents and doing all sorts of stuff while he's going about and chatting with people
and going to the synagogue and preaching.
There's a lot of benefit in that as well.
And I don't know the ones better than the other.
It just kind of like, who has God made you to be?
Right.
Yeah.
And I think that's where a lot of it comes place, right?
It's like where God lands you.
And so, you know, it wasn't, I pursued like bivocational ministry.
You know, I, you weren't like, man, I hope the church doesn't pay me very well so that
I have to have another job.
Yeah.
And I was like, you know, like I really like being really busy and doing, you know, being
responsible for multiple things, you know, while we're all having a family, you know,
I mean, I walked into it just, I mean, years of being prayerful, being Godlike, I really
hope I really like my heart's desire is to just step into full-time ministry.
That's what I just love to do.
I just love to connect with people and be, that's my focus because it was my focus and
it is my focus.
Like people are my focus, you know, relationships are my focus and, and teaching is my focus.
And so, so God just never opened that opportunity.
And so, you know, when the opportunity came to, to step into this leadership position,
I just felt that where I was and what I was doing was the perfect fit.
Yeah.
And then when we looked at the resources at the time, we stepped in and by any time you
have a change in leadership, you also have moments, you know, seasons of rebuilding.
And so we just took that in stride.
And I think that was something that was really powerful because our youth pastor at the time,
he stepped out of taking a full salary and stepped into bivocational too.
Like it was just, it just seemed like the right thing to do.
And I just felt like we had, we had everybody on board when let's take care of the responsibilities
that we've committed to as a ministry.
And I think what helped with it so much is that we didn't just step into it.
Like it wasn't just like the first ministry we stepped into with the church while we took
that on what their other stuff, like we were already involved.
And so like our investment was already there.
It was already our ministry and our family.
And so rolling it over was, we just felt it was the best thing and we felt we could provide,
we could provide an opportunity to address some of those priorities.
We wanted to make sure that every, everyone that we've committed to both in the community
and around the state and, and world missions, they, we were taking care of them.
And so it was really about putting those responsibilities first and foremost and knowing God was going
to take care of us on those backsides.
I was just curious on the bivocational part.
So Clint, the question, have you found that that bivocational part has better allowed
you to minister to your family?
That's a, probably an interesting one.
I think, you know what, I think whether you're bivocational, full-time ministry, I think ministering
to your family is about priorities and we've made family a priority.
And I think it was coming out of that season of having missed priorities that I just had
to look into say as much as I want to have my life revolve around serving God in every
capacity that the, the, the thing that God has placed in front of me that I know without
a doubt is my responsibility, is my, my wife, it is my children.
And so my priorities are first and foremost them.
And I think having that, that set for me and my family years ago, it wouldn't, it wouldn't
matter whether I was full-time ministry or bivocational.
And I think, I think on the flip side, it can be equal to the same.
I mean, you can be at not doing bivocational, you could be full-time ministry and family
could still not be a priority.
Like we have to be intentional about those relationships.
And I think it's easy to overburden yourself, especially if you're trying to take on all
of the responsibilities, all of the load we've got to set.
We've got to set, you know, I can only do so much.
Correct.
Well, and you said earlier, it's not good to do it alone.
No, right.
It's not good to do it alone.
And, you know, growing up in a, in a pastoral family, one of the things that I saw, because
we, we tended to know a lot of pastors is that a lot of people in ministry tend to offer
their family up on the altar of sacrifice.
And that's not cool.
No, I don't think it's, I mean, you know, we, we go on stride with everything, you know,
because I think we, we try to honor God in our relationship and our responsibilities.
And I think somewhere in the back of our minds in those instances, we feel like our
family will understand, right?
Our family will understand the sacrifices that's being made in order for me to do the
ministry and carry it out the way that I feel that it needs to happen.
But I also realized that when we choose, when we've made that choice to be committed to
our, our wife or be committed to our husband, when we've made that decision to have children,
we've made a commitment to them.
Right.
And to release that commitment so loosely to, to pursue ministry, I feel like we've
lost a little bit of our way because our family is our greatest ministry.
Well, first Timothy three talks about that very thing where Paul's writing Timothy, he's
like, yeah, and if leaders can't take care of their families, then how are they going
to take care of the church?
So coming back to Exodus, it is actually interesting to note that Jethro is bringing his wife and
sons back.
Yeah.
Right.
And he's with him and he's too busy and Jethro's like, dude, this is not okay.
Yep.
Like this is not working.
Yeah.
And also like, let's just be honest, she has an awesome name, Zipporah.
Like she should be there.
Like Moses and Zipporah.
That's a great couple name.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
When you're involved in ministry though, it's important to look at those ministry organizations
and see how they value.
True.
What their, what their perspective is on value and family.
So like the denomination that I'm ordained in, like one of the questions they ask every
year is how many nights a week do you have devoted to ministry?
And the reason they ask that is because if your number is too high and they're like,
okay, now you're taking away from family time and that's not okay.
And we need to figure out how to address that.
Yeah.
Right.
And then that's, and that's a good, healthy thing to have in place.
Like it's okay to, it's okay as ministry leaders to have evenings where you have other people
taking on the load.
Right.
Like you don't need to be at everything.
Well and there's, and there's seasons, like there may be a season where you have to take
on a little, but it needs to be agreed upon with your family too.
Like this kind of comes back to the whole idea when we were talking early in Genesis
is that man and women together, we represent the image of God as like your wife is not
your servant.
Your wife is your partner.
She is your Etzer Kinecto.
She's the force that opposes.
She is, she is meant to support you.
And I was like, how many times am I seeing in ministry a pastor is like, well, I'm going
to go this way and my wife is going to follow because I'm the head of the house.
So I was like, first of all, that's not how Jesus leads us.
So that's definitely not how you should lead your wife.
I have a pastor friend.
He was in an interview process.
And so in the interview process, he had his wife there and they were asking his wife questions.
So they asked her like, oh, do you play piano?
And she's like, yes, I do.
And no, I won't.
Like that was her answer to it.
And she was like, she's like, my family's going to be my main priority.
And that was her whole point too.
It was like, my family is going to be my main priority.
But her way of saying that was like, yes, I play piano and no, I won't.
So when we talk about, like I said, co-pastoral shit, full-time ministry, family, stuff like
that, like again, like we have to be able to have like a realized understanding of what
we can do.
And so it's like, it's not not like, you know, if we say, hey, I'm not going to do everything,
people can be like, well, you're not trusting God.
Are you not stepping out in faith like that he's going to carry you through?
It's like, yeah, but I'm also like, God gives me the ability to think and make decisions
and to look at the people around me and to see the impact that it has.
I think a lot of what we're seeing here with Moses and how Jethro is like, bringing his
family in and then him looking around and seeing everything that Moses is doing and
saying this isn't too much.
Right?
If we waited for Moses to look around and say that this is too much, it's too late.
Yeah.
He may never got there.
I mean, his family could have been like, kids could have been raised and wife could have
been unhappy and gone and like before we ever realize.
And so it's like, to me, when, when you have people that you love and care about that come
to you and they start saying, they start giving you like, this is like this word of wisdom,
right?
Like just, it's like, God's just speaking to you through them.
To me, like the way that it happened in the three was like super important for me because
it's like, I heard it from my wife.
I heard it from her father and then all of a sudden I heard it from my dad.
And so for my dad to make a biblical response about my responsibility to my family, it was
like, it was huge.
And so I looked at that and I just said, balance, right?
We're not going to bring the kingdom of God for everyone right now today.
It's going to be a process.
I'm a part of that.
And so I looked at it and I just said, if we're going to lead the church, if we're going
to be in this ministry, then we have to do this all together.
The greatest impact that we're going to have as a ministry is if all of us is like everybody
there feels like they have a place, they have a place, they feel equipped, they have responsibilities,
they have a say in the ministry, right?
They have a voice in it.
We've always said like, all you got to do is come up and say like, I want to serve and
then we'll figure out where.
Right.
If God's speaking to you, like this is a ministry I want, this is a ministry I will call to.
Okay, let's open, we'll support, we'll back you.
What can we do?
Right.
Well, and that connects really well.
Like I mean, like, cause you're talking about, there has to be a rhythm because even in creation,
there's six days of creation and a day of rest, right?
Like Sabbath is important, knowing how to set things aside and trust that you are not
valued for what you can produce.
You're valued for who you belong to.
Right?
Because if we start to like place value on, oh, this person reaches this many people for
Christ and he preaches this many servants creates this curriculum.
I was like, no, no, they're valuable because they're made in the image of God and they're
going to work into that reality to the best of their ability.
It comes down to works, right?
It comes down to this process.
Like if we make things based on how much I mean, we look at the production of fruit,
right?
But a lot of times when we look at scripture, it says that the tree, it produces fruit.
It doesn't always say the quantity of fruit.
It just says the fruit's good.
Right?
And so, you know, we just need to make sure we're producing good fruit, right?
And fruit that is going to nourish and it's going to be something that is valuable.
It's not saying like we need to have a whole huge field of fruit, right?
And that we need to be the only ones producing all the fruit.
And so, you know, we're part of an orchard.
We're not a tree all by yourself.
Yeah.
It's just like we're a part of that.
And so I don't want to ever want to get carried away with this idea that when I think that's
like early on in my life, like when I got really on fire for God, it's like I wanted
to just be nothing but fruit, right?
I want fruit to just be flowing through everything that I touch until all of a sudden I started
noticing that I wasn't caring for what God was entrusting me with.
Well, and the notion of plants producing fruit too, if there's only one type of fruit that
was produced from all the plants, like it would be a pretty boring diet to eat, right?
So and there's different plants that produce different fruit and they're coming all sorts
of shapes, variety.
Like I think of the house we lived in in Washington, there was this big old apple tree in the yard.
So like we never had to go buy apples.
We just went and picked apples and it produced tons of apples every summer.
Contrast that with a couple of strawberry plants, right?
Like both apples and strawberries are good, but they're different plants.
They produce different types of fruit, different quantity of fruit and that's not a bad thing.
Like it's a good thing to recognize that.
But I had another question for you, if you don't mind Sharon, what are some of the practices
as a ministry leader you put in your life to protect your time from being over committed?
So I love how you laughed at that.
Yeah, it's a great one because I mean, you guys know I don't have a cell phone and so
like you said, that is done intentionally and I mean, people are going to look at it
and be like, it doesn't make sense.
And I'm perfectly fine with that because-
I also get text messages from your wife.
I'm like, this is definitely not his wife.
Nope.
This is definitely Clint.
She would never say this.
So I still use and capacity because I know I still need to communicate with people, especially
our team.
Right.
So that's all important, but for me it's like, I think since the concept of having cell phones
and then having them on you all the time, it's changed the dynamics of ministry in the
sense that people could expect 100% access to the pastor at all times.
And to me that's dangerous.
Oh, so dangerous.
And so I need to be able to protect our time in a way that I don't get pulled away from
my family in important times when it's our time together.
So being vibrational puts me in a situation that's like, okay, yes, I'm done with work,
but no, I have not spent any time with my family.
So I've spent most of the, I mean the whole day working and now I need to turn some time
over to them where, where if somebody who feels like, well, it's an emergency for me,
I need pastor right now.
I've just, I've looked over the last 10 years and most of the times that I get phone calls
or reached out, it's not really an emergency.
It's not really the fact that, you know, they need to talk to me now.
It's just that they just have 100% access to me.
Pastor, I have a really important question.
I found a plate that doesn't match all the other ones in the kitchen, right?
It could just, yeah, it could just be a lot of stuff and it's not, it's not downplaying,
you know, people's needs at all, but it's, it's just protecting my time, knowing that
people can still get ahold of me.
See, that's the thing.
It's like they can email, no issues.
I have a house phone that has a, that has a answer machine.
Perfect.
But what it allows for me to do is it allows for me to get back to people when I'm able
to.
Right.
And, you know, being bivocational, a lot of times I'll get phone calls in midday that
could seem very important for someone that, that I feel a responsibility because of my
role to like, to try to step out of what I'm doing, but I also have a responsibility to
what I'm doing.
And so it is, it's a really hard balance of, you know, of being available, but not jeopardizing
other really important times that I have either working or with my family or, you know, I
say even my time because my time is, is also valuable because I need my time for my spiritual
studies.
I need my time for my spiritual practice.
I need my time just for my time.
Right.
You just can't pour from an empty cup.
Yeah.
Right.
So we've got to stay, I keep always using this word balance, but it's like, my biggest
pursuit is like the balance between bivocational balance, between family balance, between ministry
balance, between my personal interests, you know, and not losing myself in the midst of
everything else.
So I want to get a little practical here.
So one of the things where you haven't used the word, but you've been talking all around
it is boundaries, knowing how to establish clear boundaries for people.
So when you are, as you're pastoring the church and let's just be honest, like church tends
to attract drama sometimes.
And so when people have like complaints, issues, like I've heard Nick talk about your guys'
process, the boundary you set up to deal with those types of things, which I think is incredibly
effective and it's like, you talk about the process.
Yeah, so like I said, you know, everything that we pick up, you know, this is not just
a, this is not just a me thing, right?
It wasn't something I just came up with.
It was something that I had gleaned from a conversation with a pastoral friend of mine
that I was just like, that's a genius.
Yeah.
It makes you feel better.
We still think from people all the time, so you just go right ahead.
So a lot of stuff, like I said, has been taken from other avenues, so, but has been tried
to been able to put together for our ministry, right?
So it's like pulling together all these different pieces and stuff that you feel like this could
be beneficial.
But anyway, so one of the things that, that we get that you can get in churches is they
call it right church drama.
And I feel like that's something we've been really fortunate, you know, over the last 10
years is not, we haven't had a whole lot of church drama because from the very beginning
we set these parameters.
We said, okay, so we understand that people are not going to always agree, right?
They're not going to like shocking like music.
They're not going to like all the speakers because, because we're bivocational, right?
So I have, I have a rotation of people who come up and preach and give the word.
And that was very weird for people in the beginning.
Not a lot of people like that.
I won't say not a lot, but there was very, very, some very vocal people who did not think
this was the greatest idea in the world.
So but anyways, so I went into it and I said, okay guys, so we have, we have expectations,
right?
And these are our expectations.
If you have something that you're upset about, if you have something that you're frustrated
about, we're not our deacons, they're not sounding boards.
I don't want us to use our leadership team or our other pastors as a sounding board because
I feel like that sows disunity, right?
If I go to someone and I just is like, well, I just want to, I just want to explain my,
my frustration.
And we do that constantly.
We're constantly sowing this disunity in the ministry and in this body.
And it can, you can start to get these little things of rot, right?
And then that can cause problems.
And so we said, if you have a issue, it's no problem because we want to hear about it,
but we want it to be done in context.
So we said, so first off is you have to stop and think about it, right?
You have to say, what am I upset about and why am I upset?
Then you need to come up with two ways to fix it, right?
Which again, it allows for that to process.
Why am I upset?
What am I looking for that can fix this?
And then the third thing is if possible, you have to be a part of the solution.
And so I had a situation one time where someone came up to me and they're after church and
I'm not sharing anything private or anything.
So, but it was like, they're like, pastor, I had something that I was really frustrated
about, but I thought about what you have asked us to do.
And what I realized was that I was the problem.
And I was like, great.
And that was the end of the conversation.
Very often when I stop and think, I realized that that's probably the case.
Yeah.
And so, you know, so often the problems that, you know, that I want to complain about are
often my problems and it's just either because it's the way I like it to be done or the way
I want it to be done or the way that it has been done.
So we talk about, you know, the last couple of months, you know, we've talked about how
frustrating it is to have change, right?
So if somebody sits in your seat at church that bothers or parks in your parking spot.
Incidentally, I just have to tell you a quick story here.
Pastor Clint mentioned from the pulpit that he's been sitting in that chair forever.
And I saw the light click on in Spencer's face the second that he saw that.
And he's going to be gone for a couple of weeks.
So when he came back, Spencer took up that whole row.
Oh yeah.
And I got called out from the pulpit.
Yeah, he did.
Well, I sat there looking from the back and I looked at my wife and I'm like, whose stuff
is that?
I think the best part was is your kids walked in and they threw their stuff on that rope,
paid no attention that I had coats draped all over that row.
And then then your wife comes up and is like, wait, someone sitting here?
Like what's going on?
What's because it's a funny thing because like it's toward the back of the church, like
nobody sits there.
Like, you know, it's just been it's been one of those seats that we've sat in for 12 years.
Yeah.
And so you just you find like this is our spot.
And yeah, it definitely can throw you off, you know, to have change.
Right.
And that's the that's the piece of those, you know, we we put these things in place
to to help us stay connected as we're coming in and landing this this idea of Jethro coming
and helping others understand that you need to learn how to balance this load.
You need to learn how to not take everything on yourself.
I want to like give a couple of takeaways that we can talk about here.
The first is in this big one that you said, Pastor Clint was don't do this alone.
Right.
Like we're not supposed to do this alone.
Like any of it.
We're made for a community.
Like we start we established that in Genesis one.
We're not made to do this by ourselves.
Right.
I can still still take all the responsibilities on my shoulder and just expect people to come
along with me.
Right.
But it's really about just trusting that that the spirit of God in this mission is through
is working through all of us.
Right.
And that the spirit of us has something very special to offer this right.
This this direction that God is bringing us.
Right.
And I think that's that like we need to come along one another in in the ministry.
Yeah.
And you know and just by chance you know where God has placed me he's he's put me in this
in this process of leadership.
But the thing is I don't always lead.
Right.
Because I do a lot of following you know because we have other leaders in the church.
And so to be a good leader you know we we we distinctly say you also have to be a good
follower right.
Right.
And Jesus has shown us that that example.
Yeah.
So good.
One of the words you said in there and you kind of danced around it but partnership.
Right.
It's partnership is not I'm going to tell you what to do and you go do it.
Partnership is we're going to do this together.
Right.
And we have a better way.
Yeah.
Let's be honest like if you've ever had a partner.
OK.
So if you're listening to this and you're married I guarantee you at some point your
spouse has had a better way to do something than you did it.
Like I guarantee you my wife is every day of my life.
Every day of my life you're like hey I've got a really great idea and you share to them
they're like why don't we just do it like this.
And you're like yeah that's better.
One of my best examples of that is I was prepping for a sermon and I was telling Tara I was
like oh I got this thing here and this thing.
She's like listening.
So it's basically this and I'm like yeah that's better.
Let's just say it that way.
That's much better.
So we just want to we want to be really thankful that you are here partnering with us today
on the podcast.
And the other thing is that we also want to mention we talk about it on the podcast a
lot.
We talk about because we talk about our experiences we talk about the church and we just want
to talk about like how much we value you as a pastor specifically that we recognize that
there are a lot of people who are able to bring the gospel preach and you're equipping
people very well for the ministry.
And I believe that the fruit is showing all throughout our church and our community.
So with that thank you all for listening.
You know where to find us.
That's kind of creepy but yeah you know where to find us.
So thank you all for listening.
If you have questions email us love in context at gmail.com or shoot us a message on Instagram.
Thank you so much for listening today.
We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we hope that you got something out of it.
If you have any questions please contact us at love and context at gmail.com.
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Thank you once again.
We really appreciate you being here.
God bless.