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Ben and Spencer.

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Welcome to the Love and Context podcast of Unscripted Conversation with Ben and Spencer.

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So glad that you could join us today, whether that's from your car, office, home, church,

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or wherever you're at.

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If you want to contact us, you can email us at lovingcontext at gmail.com.

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Also follow us on Instagram at loveandcontext.

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Welcome to the Love and Context podcast with Ben and Spencer.

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I'm Ben and that guy over there is Spencer.

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You can't see me gesticulating, but he's over there.

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We have a special guest with us this week, a person we referenced a few times on the

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podcast in a good way because now he's getting a little nervous over there.

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But we have our, our pastor Clint on the podcast.

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Say hi, Clint.

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Hello.

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Yeah.

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So he is a little out of sorts because we definitely shanghaied him into coming.

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Well, to be fair, Ben's advertisement of what we were doing was a little misleading to Clint,

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but you know, we're here.

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We're gonna have a great time.

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Hey, listen, I'm responsible for the sale, not for the remorse after the sale.

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So yeah, we're glad you're here.

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We have been high stepping through Torah.

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And so last week we talked about the Red Sea.

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We talked about worship in the desert.

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We talked about this whole thing with quail and manna and all the things that God's kind

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of doing in those things.

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As you recall, Pastor Nick was on that podcast, but this week we're going to be in Exodus

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chapter 18.

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If you haven't read your Bible, confused on how you got to this podcast.

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But if you haven't read this section in a while, positive podcast, go to Exodus chapter

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18, read it, and then come back.

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Cause we're going to have a conversation revolving around Exodus 18.

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And to be fair today, we are going to use this passage, this springboard off into a

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topic that we think is really important.

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So just want a fair warning on that.

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All right.

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So Exodus 18, there's been a bunch of stuff happening.

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They've gone through, they cross through the Red Sea.

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There's water from a rock.

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The Israelites have grumbled, all sorts of different things have happened.

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And then they come to this point where Jethro, his father-in-law hears about the things that

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have been going on with Israel.

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And he says, he sends word.

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And by the way, I love this, by the way, Jethro says, I, your father-in-law, Jethro, am coming

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you to you with your wife and your two sons.

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I just, I love that he has to clarify I, Jethro.

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Like how many Jethro's do you think Moses knows?

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I don't know, but Moses knows quite a bit of people.

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Knows quite a bit.

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Is that grammatically correct?

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Yes.

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Yes.

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I also do, did notice here that it says, cause we're dealing with some cultural things here,

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that when Moses shows up and Jethro shows up, Moses goes and greets him with a kiss.

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Now I'm on good terms with my father-in-law, but Clint, when's the last time you greeted

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your father-in-law with a kiss?

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Usually handshake.

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Usually handshake.

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Obviously we're dealing with the cultural thing in this, in this instance.

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I'm with you on the handshake thing though.

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That's usually all it takes on my end too.

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Coming in to verse 14, it says, when his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people,

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he said, what is this you are doing for the people?

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Why do you alone sit as judge while all these people stand around you morning till evening?

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Moses answered him, because the people come to me to seek God's will.

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Whenever they have a dispute, it's brought to me and I decide between the parties and

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inform them of God's decrees and instructions.

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Moses's father replied, what you were doing is not good.

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You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out.

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The work is too heavy for you.

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You cannot handle it alone.

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Which by the way, do you get some serious vibes from like creation story?

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Totally.

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Yeah, totally do.

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God's saying it's not good for man to be alone, right?

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What you are by yourself is not enough.

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You actually need partnership.

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You need community.

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Yeah, community is huge.

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And if you don't catch that throughout the Old Testament, and God keeps coming back to

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that topic right there of not doing things alone.

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You see that in Genesis and creation.

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You see that through Noah's story, even though Noah and his family were selected as the survivors

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of the flood, there was still a community aspect that goes with that.

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And you see that through Abraham's story, all the way through Joseph and now into Exodus

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as well.

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Like it keeps going that thing.

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One of the things that has troubled me growing up in the church and ministry in general is

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that pastors have a tendency to burn out, right?

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You've seen that, right, Clint?

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Very much so.

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Yeah.

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It is not good.

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It is not good.

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I think about when Paul talks, he says, hey, listen, some of you are going to be preachers.

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Some of you are going to be teachers.

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Some of you are going to be pastors.

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Some of you are going to be evangelists.

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And they were like, hey, we'll hire a guy, pay him 60 grand a year.

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And he gets to do all of that, right?

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Things probably like the modern day setup.

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When we started looking at pastoral leadership as a job compared to a calling, that the expectation

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now is that we're going to give this individual X amount of dollars and in doing so, we want

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them to do X amount of work, which is usually far and beyond just the pastoral component.

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It becomes the outreach.

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It becomes the evangelism.

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Comes the discipleship.

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It becomes the church maintenance, organizing and leading the deacons or the leadership

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boards.

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And they end up becoming all those things because we've attached financial benefit and

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then staff responsibilities to it.

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It's a very dangerous position to be in because we were talking, I think it was a couple of

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weeks ago, about the whole idea behind pastoral and shepherding and all this.

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You're actually meant to equip the body for service, right?

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That novel concept.

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How many times in church ministry have you had people be like, well, the pastor needs

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to come and talk to my friend?

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And you're like, well, I'm pretty sure that God put it on your heart.

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You should probably talk to him.

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It's a topic that we go off and we discuss often.

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A lot of it is this idea that the pastor is going to be the answer for all of these life

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situations and life interactions.

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Because we don't equip individuals to do the calling that God's placed on their lives.

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They become kind of an intercessor where they make contact with people, but for some reason

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they don't feel like they can handle it or do it alone.

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They want to bring it back to what I guess some people could just consider to be the

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church leadership because they're going to have the right answer or they're going to

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have the means to be able to deal with this where for our perspective is that if God placed

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them in your life, he did it for a very specific reason because he believes and knows that

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you're capable of meeting that need.

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But we just have to be willing to step out in that.

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I feel like what you're saying is like the Holy Spirit in me is just as powerful as the

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one in you.

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Oh, it is by far.

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Yes.

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I've served in pastoral positions that Spencer has as well.

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Somebody comes and they say, we'll come and talk to this person.

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I was like, I don't know anything about them.

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I've got no relationship.

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And you're like, oh, we'll come talk to them about Jesus.

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I was like, I don't even know.

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How does Jesus fit into their life?

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Who are they?

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And on a broad level, sure, you can proclaim the gospel.

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You can talk about how Jesus has made an impact in your life.

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But I was thinking about that song, Good, Good Father that Chris Tomlin wrote.

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Some people struggle with that song because they grew up in a household where father meant

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something completely different.

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Right.

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And if I don't know that coming into the conversation, I'm like, well, God is a good father, you

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know, who does good for his kids.

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And they're like, I don't know what that means.

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I have no idea.

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So how do we expect the pastor to be able to come in and like step in that situation?

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But what you can do and you've done for us for a number of times is you have come and

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put a steady hand on something we're already doing.

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And then like, let me offer a piece of guidance, a piece of direction that's going to help

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you shape this into something that's going to maybe be a little better for you.

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And for the record, he does that with Ben a lot more than me.

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So I just wanted to throw that out there.

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I am the problem child.

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So I am the Jacob, but I also get things done.

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So you're welcome.

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There's an echo over to Acts chapter six, where the disciples were brought a dispute

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saying, they're like, hey, there's unfair food distributions amongst the Gentiles and

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Jewish believers.

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And a disciple said, all right, we need to not be distracted by this.

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But what we're going to do is we're going to appoint people to take care of this.

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But they're like, our focus needs to be proclaiming the gospel.

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When I read that story, I can't help but wonder if the disciples are thinking of Jethro and

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Moses in this moment where Jethro is like, yo, Moses, this is way too much.

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You can't do it all.

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You need people around you.

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Right.

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Well, I think there's probably going to be a connection also with numbers 11 when God

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says I'm going to take a piece of the spirit that's on you and I'm going to put it on the

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72.

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These are similar ideas.

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It's too much for one person to do.

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When God's kingdom is going to go forward, we have to learn how to delegate and more

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specifically trust the spirit of God and the other people too.

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Right.

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How scary is it?

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You're the only one in faith that you trust.

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Right.

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Well, it's not just scary.

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It's a problem.

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Yeah.

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I was thinking about, so we sang this at the sing inspiration that song where it says,

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I've decided to follow Jesus.

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Right.

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And the other verse to that is, if none go with me, still I will follow, which sounds

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really good, but I got news for you.

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If you're the only one going, you might not be heading toward Jesus.

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Like that might be a problem because I guarantee you there's somebody else who's supposed to

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go that way too.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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When you're heading towards Jesus, you're supposed to be bringing others along with

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you.

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When we're following after Jesus, we're supposed to be finding people around us and bringing

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them along with us.

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Like whether they currently follow Jesus or don't follow Jesus.

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Like we're supposed to, the people that God has entrusted in our sphere of influence,

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we're supposed to be coming alongside them and bringing Christ to them on a daily basis.

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So if you're striving to follow after Jesus, other people should be coming along with you

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at some point.

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Right.

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It shouldn't just be you doing it alone.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think it's the basis of between like trusting what God has in store for you and

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trusting you.

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Like it's easy to trust ourselves.

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You know, in the ministry that we're doing, but to trust that God has a bigger plan that

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involves you as a piece of it, but only as a piece of it.

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You're not the whole puzzle.

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And when we can step out in that fear to be like, Hey God, like I've just got to trust

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that I'm going to release the responsibility that for whatever reason I feel that I need

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to control and hold onto and I'm going to give it out to the body and allow for the

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body to take this and move forward with it.

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I think that's the really difficult part of letting go.

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And I think you get wise men and women like Jethro who come and you know, they can be

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just a word of wisdom for somebody who is just stuck in the midst of trying to do everything

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because they want it to be done well.

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They want it to be done right.

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They want to honor God in the process.

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But in doing so, you know, we're, we're taking these really special opportunities that someone

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else could, could take and build off of.

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And we're, we're holding onto them.

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I've always viewed it like inviting someone to coffee.

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If you invite a couple people to coffee and then you throw all of your crap all over the

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seats at the table you're sitting at and be like, Oh, well you're welcome, but you can

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stand.

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Like how long are they going to stick around?

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Or you're like, you're welcome to sit here, but I'm drinking all the coffee.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Right.

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How long are they going to stick around?

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I mean, if you're drinking all the coffee, we're not sticking around long.

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Yeah.

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Oh, right.

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Exactly.

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I've always viewed it that way of like, if you're inviting people in to be a part of

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a team of ministry, like there's gotta be a seat at the table for them.

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There's gotta be a cup of coffee for them to drink.

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Yeah, and I think, you know, I think it's just a lot of it is, you know, personalities

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rate of, you know, like I've been placed in this leadership position.

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So my responsibility is to lead.

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Right.

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But our different perspectives and experiences in life is, you know, I, I got the opportunity

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in a lot of different scenarios to see where pastoral leadership has struggled and the

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hardships of that and what happens when you take on too much.

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And when we talk about longevity of ministry, I remember sitting down with someone and they

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were going over like, you know, the last like 50 years of our church and how each pastoral

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group was there for like anywhere from four years, I think up to a max of like nine years,

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but like five years, four or five years was kind of the, that, that point where, you know,

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just kind of hang around before they kind of move on to somewhere else.

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And it just makes you really wonder, you know, I always hear this concept like God's calling

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me somewhere else, but I always feel like, I don't feel like God calls me and like, yo

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yo's me all over the place.

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Like he calls me here for a couple of years and he calls me there for a couple of years.

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Like I know God moves us and he transitions us, but in pastoral leadership, to me, if

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you're called to pastoral leadership, you know, oftentimes we're placed in a place for

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reason and it takes time.

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It takes time to build the church and it doesn't happen overnight.

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And when you talk about four or five years, that's a, I mean, that's just a couple of

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turns of the page.

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I mean, it happens so fast and very little gets done in those times, but now we're talking

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about, you know, 10 years and then we're, you know, 15 years and 20 years.

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I mean, that's the, that's the really building foundations and stuff.

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It takes time.

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Well, and I think it's interesting because I've heard that in a statement where people

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say, well, God called me elsewhere, right?

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Just my opinion.

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And I think I've got some biblical basis for it is that God's not going to call you in

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isolation.

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How many times, okay, well, Spencer, you, you use ministry, right?

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How many times does a kid say, God is calling me to marry this girl.

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She is going to be my wife, right?

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When they're like 14 and a half, they haven't even figured out how to drive yet or practice

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proper hygiene in a lot of cases.

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So I've worked in these ministry for 15 years now.

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I have seen one instance where that's worked out one majority of the time it has not worked

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out at all.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, I mean, there are, but there are times where students are like, oh, well, this

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is the one and the Lord's told me I'm going to marry her.

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Right.

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And I'm like, interesting.

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I really think you're just manifesting something for yourself and right.

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Maybe that comes true and we do that all too often in ministry as well.

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Yeah.

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It's not just, not just relationship things like, you know, you're upset with your job

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and oh, God is calling me to somewhere that I got to be around other believers.

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I was like, what makes you think God wants you to be around other believers?

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He wants you to be a solid line in the world.

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You know, he wants you to go and actually talk to people who need the kingdom, right?

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That's where you're supposed to be.

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You're like, oh, it's just not light in here.

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I got news for you.

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You're the light of the world.

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Turn it on.

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Right.

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And that's one of the pieces there is to understand that, you know, ministry at times, especially

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in pastoral leadership is not always about the big fireworks and stuff.

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There's moments and years of struggle sometimes and there's times of little growth and then

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there's times where you see these really like where God really starts to begin, you know,

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to show himself and you see growth and you see these amazing moments where people get

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on fire for God and you know, they just, where God starts to really do all this work and

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then all of a sudden you're in a lull again, like you're in these valleys, you know, and

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I think for a lot of people they get in these valleys and they last a little too long for

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them and they start looking over the fence and being like, well, maybe I can be used

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in a greater purpose somewhere else, right?

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Where sometimes God just wants us to keep pressing forward.

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And I'm not saying that's always the answer, but I think sometimes it's easy to just cut

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and run sometimes to go a different direction if we don't feel like we're having this,

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the huge impact maybe that we want or the huge leadership, you know, a growth that we

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want.

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Yeah.

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So with that, with that idea, actually Psalm one, which you're familiar with is blesses

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the one who does not walk in the step with the wicked or stand in the way of the sinners

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take or sit in the company of mockers, but whose delight is in the law of the Lord who

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meditates on his law day and night.

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That person is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season

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whose leaf does not wither whatever they do, prospers.

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Well, so if you know anything about herbiculture, yeah, I said it in Israel, then there is a

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tree that yields fruit in its season and deals with like both good years and bad years.

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It's called a Tamarisk tree and it's by the streams of the water, these wadis where the

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flood waters will come through and the tree will suck up moisture, but it may only get

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water once every three or four years, but when the water hits, it just produces fruit.

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Right.

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And it's, it's always in the position, even though it might look dead, it's always in

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a position ready to absorb anything that comes this way and produce fruit.

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And I think a lot of the times we're sitting there as Tamarisk trees and we're like, ah,

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man, it's dead, it's dead, it's dead.

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And the wave is coming.

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Right.

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And like we, we bail and we go to where the Tamarisk tree is producing fruit, not realizing

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that we're actually supposed to be planted firmly by this water waiting on what God is

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doing.

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And I don't know, that's always the case, but I think that when we're just getting unsettled

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in our walk, that's a lot of it.

344
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:14,840
Yeah.

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And I think it's been, again, so much of it comes down to trust, right?

346
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So I've, I have to trust God in these, these moments, you know, where I don't feel like

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there's a lot of this spirit moving, taking place, but there's, but there's these like

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underground flowing water that's taking place where people are, you know, individual people

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are growing, but maybe you're not seeing growth as far as like growth in numbers of church,

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but you're seeing growth in individual people.

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And also, you know, church is also a place where, you know, oftentimes we, we have to

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hit a certain degree of healing, you know, that needs to take place.

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And healing takes time and it doesn't happen overnight.

354
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,200
And so, you know, it was, it was one of those interesting perspectives, you know, when Pastor

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00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,960
Nick and I, when we stepped into, you know, our positions and like co-pastorial ship and,

356
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,680
and stepping into the church was this is our home, right?

357
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,680
This is our home.

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This is our church.

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And I stepped into it being like, I may not be the most qualified pastor here and I may

360
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:32,080
not be the very best fit, but what I can do is I can offer the church consistency and

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00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:39,160
I can offer the church, like my talents and the, the best that I can offer to it.

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And I can give it some time to heal, you know, and I can give it some time to grow.

363
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:50,160
And I think that was kind of the stepping in of like co-pastorial ship was like, I also

364
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,480
had to trust Nick in the process as well.

365
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:53,480
Right.

366
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,440
So can you explain what you mean by co-pastorial?

367
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:56,880
So co-pastorial ship.

368
00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:04,000
So a lot of times a church will be founded where you have one, one leadership pastor,

369
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,000
right?

370
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,000
One senior pastor.

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00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,640
He is like the tip of the pyramid there.

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Like he's the one in charge.

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Everything else will flow down from that.

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00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,360
They're also the ones who usually take the brunt of all of the responsibilities of the

375
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church.

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So in co-pastorial ship, there's the reason why we, we really looked at it.

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00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,200
Co-pastorial ship is about sharing the ministry responsibilities.

378
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:33,920
And so I take the process of the lead pastor, cause we believe in everything.

379
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,280
There has to be someone who like has to make a decision in some like day-to-day functions

380
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,760
of a church and stuff like that.

381
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,880
But in ministry concerns, the co-pastorial ship is about sharing the vision, sharing

382
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:51,600
the responsibilities, sharing the direction of the church where everything that flows

383
00:20:51,600 --> 00:21:00,280
through that's ministry wise, we take an opportunity to, to both inevitably have say, have responsibility

384
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:01,420
in it.

385
00:21:01,420 --> 00:21:05,160
And then we go the one step further is the co-pastorial ship.

386
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:13,040
We extend to, you know, our youth pastor, we extend to our, our leadership team because

387
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:19,960
I believe that the, the church organization was never set to be put upon the shoulders

388
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,000
of one person.

389
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,600
It was to be set upon the shoulders of the believers because the church is not the pastor.

390
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,400
The church is the body and the head of that church can only be Jesus.

391
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,400
Right.

392
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,840
So on a broader level, the church in our city isn't just our church.

393
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,880
It's all the churches together as we work together.

394
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,040
Right.

395
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,200
Right.

396
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,800
So did you, when you came, when you guys explored, when you did the co-pastorial model, did you

397
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,240
model that after somebody who else did that, like another church or organization?

398
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,240
Yeah.

399
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,800
So I think the, the basis of what we were, what we were looking at was I was bivocational

400
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:03,720
at the time and felt that that was going to be the best situation for the church was not

401
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,760
to try to sustain, you know, like a salary for one person.

402
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,400
I thought that if we stayed bivocational, that what we'd be able to do is we'd be able

403
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,920
to take the resources and not just front load them on a, on a person, but we could keep

404
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:26,000
those resources for the church and for our missionaries and, and for the community.

405
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:31,240
And so I started looking around and I knew of co-pastorial ship in general, right?

406
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,800
Because like I look at the model of the early church and I look at, you know, we have Peter

407
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,240
who was like, you know, like who is considered to be like the head of the church, but they

408
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,400
had this council, you know, that would meet and they would talk.

409
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,520
And it wasn't just like, you know, apostle Peter's rule on everything, right?

410
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:47,920
It wasn't his decision on everything.

411
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,440
It was, it was a conversation.

412
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:50,440
It was a prayer.

413
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:51,440
It was coming to God.

414
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,840
And, and, and I, I found it was just dangerous to try to do things alone.

415
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:57,840
Right.

416
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,960
And so I started looking up just co-pastorial ship, how it works, like ways it works, how

417
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,760
successful it is.

418
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,200
And when I did that, like just my research with it, I just, I started looking at it and

419
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,640
I just says like, this looks like the church.

420
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,960
Like as I read in scripture in the new Testament, the book of acts is like, this looks like the

421
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:17,960
church.

422
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:18,960
Right.

423
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,800
And I was like, this is the church that I want because I'm very, I was very aware at

424
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:29,360
that time what it was to over, to try to take on too much responsibility.

425
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:30,360
Right.

426
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:36,320
And I had those conversations from my wife, you know, having, you know, young kids in

427
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,560
one season of my life.

428
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:43,200
I think I was so busy with pastoral work that I think within a one month period, I had three

429
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,800
different people that were like, you know, important people to me that knew me really

430
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,160
well that came and talked to me.

431
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,920
It was just like, you know, clench, you're doing too much.

432
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,460
You have a responsibility at home as well.

433
00:23:53,460 --> 00:23:57,520
You can't, you cannot be out of balance with that.

434
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:58,520
Yeah.

435
00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:59,520
And so.

436
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:00,520
Yes.

437
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:01,520
Yeah.

438
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:02,520
Yeah.

439
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:03,520
So I definitely had a Jethro speaking to me.

440
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:04,520
Yeah.

441
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,440
And so that's what we did is we just said, Hey, this is what I can do.

442
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,120
And I want, I want everyone to come along with me.

443
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,400
I want to walk in this ministry side by side.

444
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,220
I don't want you just to follow me.

445
00:24:16,220 --> 00:24:20,220
And so that was, that was kind of a pivotal point for us.

446
00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:25,480
And it was a model that not everybody like feels super comfortable with just because

447
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:31,760
I think of more tradition of, of how church kind of looks like, you know, and kind of

448
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,080
the modern U S being by vocational.

449
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,720
Have you found that you have been able to reach the community better than just being

450
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,080
full time as pastor?

451
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,080
Yeah.

452
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,440
I think that one's, it's an interesting caveat because, you know, you can think of it as

453
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,320
a double edged sword, right?

454
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,440
So sometimes when you're are the, like your only job is pastor, everybody sees you as

455
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,320
pastor, right?

456
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,480
But when you're by vocational, they see you in a lot of different lights, which gives

457
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,760
you different opportunities, right?

458
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,640
But sometimes I don't know if you're always taken as serious as like, you're like being

459
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:11,320
like a full time in full time ministry, like maybe like not as committed or not as available

460
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:17,280
or, you know, so like sometimes I'm, you know, because I wear multiple hats in the community

461
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,120
and people know me from different pieces, but then sometimes they just, they'll know

462
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:25,160
me as like, as this happened, then they'll be like, Oh, but you know, Oh, I heard you're

463
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:26,440
also a pastor, you know?

464
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,840
And so it's like a side caveat to it as well, which I find this kind of, it's kind of entertaining

465
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:38,200
because you know, cause I am flipping hats within the community and, and I think it surprises

466
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,840
people at times.

467
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,160
Last weekend I was at the coffee shop and it was really strange.

468
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,760
I waited for my coffee and I just hear an overhear conversation, like two tables down.

469
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,840
They're like, Oh yeah, do you know that teacher Clint?

470
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,800
You know, and they're like, also, you know, he's a pastor in town.

471
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,080
And I'm like, this is a very strange conversation for me to just be like, it was all good things,

472
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,960
but like, it was a very strange conversation for me to just kind of like be eavesdropping.

473
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,960
I was like, well, I know, I know Clinton.

474
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,080
It was like, I'm not, I'm not going to go in that conversation, but it was, it was just

475
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,760
very interesting.

476
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:07,760
Not everybody can be biblical.

477
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:08,760
Yeah.

478
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,480
Like it's, it's not super easy because you got to be able to do both of those things,

479
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,440
especially in the new Testament where you see like Paul going through and working and

480
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,320
making tents and doing all sorts of stuff while he's going about and chatting with people

481
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,120
and going to the synagogue and preaching.

482
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,680
There's a lot of benefit in that as well.

483
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,440
And I don't know the ones better than the other.

484
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,120
It just kind of like, who has God made you to be?

485
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:31,120
Right.

486
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:32,120
Yeah.

487
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:33,640
And I think that's where a lot of it comes place, right?

488
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,480
It's like where God lands you.

489
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:43,040
And so, you know, it wasn't, I pursued like bivocational ministry.

490
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,480
You know, I, you weren't like, man, I hope the church doesn't pay me very well so that

491
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,800
I have to have another job.

492
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:48,800
Yeah.

493
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,960
And I was like, you know, like I really like being really busy and doing, you know, being

494
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,080
responsible for multiple things, you know, while we're all having a family, you know,

495
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,960
I mean, I walked into it just, I mean, years of being prayerful, being Godlike, I really

496
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,000
hope I really like my heart's desire is to just step into full-time ministry.

497
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,000
That's what I just love to do.

498
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,360
I just love to connect with people and be, that's my focus because it was my focus and

499
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:15,360
it is my focus.

500
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:20,680
Like people are my focus, you know, relationships are my focus and, and teaching is my focus.

501
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,840
And so, so God just never opened that opportunity.

502
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:31,000
And so, you know, when the opportunity came to, to step into this leadership position,

503
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:36,320
I just felt that where I was and what I was doing was the perfect fit.

504
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,320
Yeah.

505
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,760
And then when we looked at the resources at the time, we stepped in and by any time you

506
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:49,080
have a change in leadership, you also have moments, you know, seasons of rebuilding.

507
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,180
And so we just took that in stride.

508
00:27:52,180 --> 00:27:57,100
And I think that was something that was really powerful because our youth pastor at the time,

509
00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:00,600
he stepped out of taking a full salary and stepped into bivocational too.

510
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,380
Like it was just, it just seemed like the right thing to do.

511
00:28:04,380 --> 00:28:10,040
And I just felt like we had, we had everybody on board when let's take care of the responsibilities

512
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,360
that we've committed to as a ministry.

513
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:17,120
And I think what helped with it so much is that we didn't just step into it.

514
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:22,080
Like it wasn't just like the first ministry we stepped into with the church while we took

515
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,780
that on what their other stuff, like we were already involved.

516
00:28:24,780 --> 00:28:27,080
And so like our investment was already there.

517
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,820
It was already our ministry and our family.

518
00:28:30,820 --> 00:28:36,980
And so rolling it over was, we just felt it was the best thing and we felt we could provide,

519
00:28:36,980 --> 00:28:41,280
we could provide an opportunity to address some of those priorities.

520
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:47,080
We wanted to make sure that every, everyone that we've committed to both in the community

521
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:53,400
and around the state and, and world missions, they, we were taking care of them.

522
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,380
And so it was really about putting those responsibilities first and foremost and knowing God was going

523
00:28:58,380 --> 00:29:01,120
to take care of us on those backsides.

524
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,960
I was just curious on the bivocational part.

525
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,440
So Clint, the question, have you found that that bivocational part has better allowed

526
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,600
you to minister to your family?

527
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,080
That's a, probably an interesting one.

528
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:18,240
I think, you know what, I think whether you're bivocational, full-time ministry, I think ministering

529
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:24,280
to your family is about priorities and we've made family a priority.

530
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,200
And I think it was coming out of that season of having missed priorities that I just had

531
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:35,960
to look into say as much as I want to have my life revolve around serving God in every

532
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:41,240
capacity that the, the, the thing that God has placed in front of me that I know without

533
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:46,120
a doubt is my responsibility, is my, my wife, it is my children.

534
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,820
And so my priorities are first and foremost them.

535
00:29:49,820 --> 00:29:55,840
And I think having that, that set for me and my family years ago, it wouldn't, it wouldn't

536
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,160
matter whether I was full-time ministry or bivocational.

537
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,280
And I think, I think on the flip side, it can be equal to the same.

538
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,720
I mean, you can be at not doing bivocational, you could be full-time ministry and family

539
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,080
could still not be a priority.

540
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,160
Like we have to be intentional about those relationships.

541
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,160
And I think it's easy to overburden yourself, especially if you're trying to take on all

542
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,080
of the responsibilities, all of the load we've got to set.

543
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,880
We've got to set, you know, I can only do so much.

544
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:26,880
Correct.

545
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,720
Well, and you said earlier, it's not good to do it alone.

546
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:30,720
No, right.

547
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:31,720
It's not good to do it alone.

548
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,360
And, you know, growing up in a, in a pastoral family, one of the things that I saw, because

549
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:42,160
we, we tended to know a lot of pastors is that a lot of people in ministry tend to offer

550
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,240
their family up on the altar of sacrifice.

551
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,240
And that's not cool.

552
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,240
No, I don't think it's, I mean, you know, we, we go on stride with everything, you know,

553
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:57,200
because I think we, we try to honor God in our relationship and our responsibilities.

554
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,600
And I think somewhere in the back of our minds in those instances, we feel like our

555
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,360
family will understand, right?

556
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,000
Our family will understand the sacrifices that's being made in order for me to do the

557
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,680
ministry and carry it out the way that I feel that it needs to happen.

558
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:18,120
But I also realized that when we choose, when we've made that choice to be committed to

559
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:24,720
our, our wife or be committed to our husband, when we've made that decision to have children,

560
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,720
we've made a commitment to them.

561
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:27,720
Right.

562
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,640
And to release that commitment so loosely to, to pursue ministry, I feel like we've

563
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,840
lost a little bit of our way because our family is our greatest ministry.

564
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,440
Well, first Timothy three talks about that very thing where Paul's writing Timothy, he's

565
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,760
like, yeah, and if leaders can't take care of their families, then how are they going

566
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,560
to take care of the church?

567
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,060
So coming back to Exodus, it is actually interesting to note that Jethro is bringing his wife and

568
00:31:54,060 --> 00:31:55,060
sons back.

569
00:31:55,060 --> 00:31:56,060
Yeah.

570
00:31:56,060 --> 00:31:57,060
Right.

571
00:31:57,060 --> 00:32:01,880
And he's with him and he's too busy and Jethro's like, dude, this is not okay.

572
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:02,880
Yep.

573
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:03,880
Like this is not working.

574
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:04,880
Yeah.

575
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,720
And also like, let's just be honest, she has an awesome name, Zipporah.

576
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:07,860
Like she should be there.

577
00:32:07,860 --> 00:32:09,080
Like Moses and Zipporah.

578
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,280
That's a great couple name.

579
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:12,280
Yeah.

580
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,280
Right.

581
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,280
Yeah.

582
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,100
When you're involved in ministry though, it's important to look at those ministry organizations

583
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:18,600
and see how they value.

584
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:19,680
True.

585
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,080
What their, what their perspective is on value and family.

586
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,080
So like the denomination that I'm ordained in, like one of the questions they ask every

587
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,640
year is how many nights a week do you have devoted to ministry?

588
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,920
And the reason they ask that is because if your number is too high and they're like,

589
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,160
okay, now you're taking away from family time and that's not okay.

590
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,400
And we need to figure out how to address that.

591
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,400
Yeah.

592
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,400
Right.

593
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,800
And then that's, and that's a good, healthy thing to have in place.

594
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:50,320
Like it's okay to, it's okay as ministry leaders to have evenings where you have other people

595
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,320
taking on the load.

596
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,320
Right.

597
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,280
Like you don't need to be at everything.

598
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,840
Well and there's, and there's seasons, like there may be a season where you have to take

599
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,440
on a little, but it needs to be agreed upon with your family too.

600
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,580
Like this kind of comes back to the whole idea when we were talking early in Genesis

601
00:33:06,580 --> 00:33:11,840
is that man and women together, we represent the image of God as like your wife is not

602
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:12,840
your servant.

603
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:13,840
Your wife is your partner.

604
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:14,840
She is your Etzer Kinecto.

605
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,760
She's the force that opposes.

606
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,680
She is, she is meant to support you.

607
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,400
And I was like, how many times am I seeing in ministry a pastor is like, well, I'm going

608
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,960
to go this way and my wife is going to follow because I'm the head of the house.

609
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,020
So I was like, first of all, that's not how Jesus leads us.

610
00:33:29,020 --> 00:33:31,040
So that's definitely not how you should lead your wife.

611
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,840
I have a pastor friend.

612
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,840
He was in an interview process.

613
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,160
And so in the interview process, he had his wife there and they were asking his wife questions.

614
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,640
So they asked her like, oh, do you play piano?

615
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:41,880
And she's like, yes, I do.

616
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:42,880
And no, I won't.

617
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,400
Like that was her answer to it.

618
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,520
And she was like, she's like, my family's going to be my main priority.

619
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:50,520
And that was her whole point too.

620
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,200
It was like, my family is going to be my main priority.

621
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,200
But her way of saying that was like, yes, I play piano and no, I won't.

622
00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:01,840
So when we talk about, like I said, co-pastoral shit, full-time ministry, family, stuff like

623
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:09,360
that, like again, like we have to be able to have like a realized understanding of what

624
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:10,700
we can do.

625
00:34:10,700 --> 00:34:15,480
And so it's like, it's not not like, you know, if we say, hey, I'm not going to do everything,

626
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,480
people can be like, well, you're not trusting God.

627
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,000
Are you not stepping out in faith like that he's going to carry you through?

628
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:26,280
It's like, yeah, but I'm also like, God gives me the ability to think and make decisions

629
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,520
and to look at the people around me and to see the impact that it has.

630
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:36,160
I think a lot of what we're seeing here with Moses and how Jethro is like, bringing his

631
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,760
family in and then him looking around and seeing everything that Moses is doing and

632
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,600
saying this isn't too much.

633
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:44,820
Right?

634
00:34:44,820 --> 00:34:49,120
If we waited for Moses to look around and say that this is too much, it's too late.

635
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,120
Yeah.

636
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:51,120
He may never got there.

637
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,840
I mean, his family could have been like, kids could have been raised and wife could have

638
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,880
been unhappy and gone and like before we ever realize.

639
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,680
And so it's like, to me, when, when you have people that you love and care about that come

640
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:08,560
to you and they start saying, they start giving you like, this is like this word of wisdom,

641
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:09,560
right?

642
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,620
Like just, it's like, God's just speaking to you through them.

643
00:35:12,620 --> 00:35:17,800
To me, like the way that it happened in the three was like super important for me because

644
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,520
it's like, I heard it from my wife.

645
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,000
I heard it from her father and then all of a sudden I heard it from my dad.

646
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:31,200
And so for my dad to make a biblical response about my responsibility to my family, it was

647
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,360
like, it was huge.

648
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,240
And so I looked at that and I just said, balance, right?

649
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:43,920
We're not going to bring the kingdom of God for everyone right now today.

650
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:44,920
It's going to be a process.

651
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,720
I'm a part of that.

652
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:50,920
And so I looked at it and I just said, if we're going to lead the church, if we're going

653
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,340
to be in this ministry, then we have to do this all together.

654
00:35:55,340 --> 00:36:00,460
The greatest impact that we're going to have as a ministry is if all of us is like everybody

655
00:36:00,460 --> 00:36:08,080
there feels like they have a place, they have a place, they feel equipped, they have responsibilities,

656
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,440
they have a say in the ministry, right?

657
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,260
They have a voice in it.

658
00:36:12,260 --> 00:36:17,320
We've always said like, all you got to do is come up and say like, I want to serve and

659
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,600
then we'll figure out where.

660
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:19,600
Right.

661
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,040
If God's speaking to you, like this is a ministry I want, this is a ministry I will call to.

662
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,320
Okay, let's open, we'll support, we'll back you.

663
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,320
What can we do?

664
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:27,320
Right.

665
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:28,600
Well, and that connects really well.

666
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,480
Like I mean, like, cause you're talking about, there has to be a rhythm because even in creation,

667
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,680
there's six days of creation and a day of rest, right?

668
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,840
Like Sabbath is important, knowing how to set things aside and trust that you are not

669
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,680
valued for what you can produce.

670
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,320
You're valued for who you belong to.

671
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,320
Right?

672
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,520
Because if we start to like place value on, oh, this person reaches this many people for

673
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,600
Christ and he preaches this many servants creates this curriculum.

674
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,800
I was like, no, no, they're valuable because they're made in the image of God and they're

675
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,560
going to work into that reality to the best of their ability.

676
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:04,840
It comes down to works, right?

677
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,160
It comes down to this process.

678
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:13,480
Like if we make things based on how much I mean, we look at the production of fruit,

679
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:14,480
right?

680
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,440
But a lot of times when we look at scripture, it says that the tree, it produces fruit.

681
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,920
It doesn't always say the quantity of fruit.

682
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,520
It just says the fruit's good.

683
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:24,520
Right?

684
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,280
And so, you know, we just need to make sure we're producing good fruit, right?

685
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:35,760
And fruit that is going to nourish and it's going to be something that is valuable.

686
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,440
It's not saying like we need to have a whole huge field of fruit, right?

687
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,640
And that we need to be the only ones producing all the fruit.

688
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,880
And so, you know, we're part of an orchard.

689
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,440
We're not a tree all by yourself.

690
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:48,440
Yeah.

691
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,440
Yeah.

692
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:50,440
Yeah.

693
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:51,440
It's just like we're a part of that.

694
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,960
And so I don't want to ever want to get carried away with this idea that when I think that's

695
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,160
like early on in my life, like when I got really on fire for God, it's like I wanted

696
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,120
to just be nothing but fruit, right?

697
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:08,240
I want fruit to just be flowing through everything that I touch until all of a sudden I started

698
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:13,480
noticing that I wasn't caring for what God was entrusting me with.

699
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:19,560
Well, and the notion of plants producing fruit too, if there's only one type of fruit that

700
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:24,760
was produced from all the plants, like it would be a pretty boring diet to eat, right?

701
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,680
So and there's different plants that produce different fruit and they're coming all sorts

702
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,840
of shapes, variety.

703
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:37,760
Like I think of the house we lived in in Washington, there was this big old apple tree in the yard.

704
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,440
So like we never had to go buy apples.

705
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,400
We just went and picked apples and it produced tons of apples every summer.

706
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,600
Contrast that with a couple of strawberry plants, right?

707
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,680
Like both apples and strawberries are good, but they're different plants.

708
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:56,760
They produce different types of fruit, different quantity of fruit and that's not a bad thing.

709
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,880
Like it's a good thing to recognize that.

710
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:04,320
But I had another question for you, if you don't mind Sharon, what are some of the practices

711
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:11,960
as a ministry leader you put in your life to protect your time from being over committed?

712
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,840
So I love how you laughed at that.

713
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:19,560
Yeah, it's a great one because I mean, you guys know I don't have a cell phone and so

714
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,360
like you said, that is done intentionally and I mean, people are going to look at it

715
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,160
and be like, it doesn't make sense.

716
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,080
And I'm perfectly fine with that because-

717
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,000
I also get text messages from your wife.

718
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,880
I'm like, this is definitely not his wife.

719
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:34,880
Nope.

720
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:35,880
This is definitely Clint.

721
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,360
She would never say this.

722
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:44,480
So I still use and capacity because I know I still need to communicate with people, especially

723
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,480
our team.

724
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:46,480
Right.

725
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:52,280
So that's all important, but for me it's like, I think since the concept of having cell phones

726
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,280
and then having them on you all the time, it's changed the dynamics of ministry in the

727
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:05,440
sense that people could expect 100% access to the pastor at all times.

728
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:06,440
And to me that's dangerous.

729
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,160
Oh, so dangerous.

730
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:17,720
And so I need to be able to protect our time in a way that I don't get pulled away from

731
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:21,120
my family in important times when it's our time together.

732
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:26,640
So being vibrational puts me in a situation that's like, okay, yes, I'm done with work,

733
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,080
but no, I have not spent any time with my family.

734
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:34,320
So I've spent most of the, I mean the whole day working and now I need to turn some time

735
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:42,120
over to them where, where if somebody who feels like, well, it's an emergency for me,

736
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,080
I need pastor right now.

737
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,720
I've just, I've looked over the last 10 years and most of the times that I get phone calls

738
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:53,120
or reached out, it's not really an emergency.

739
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,080
It's not really the fact that, you know, they need to talk to me now.

740
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,720
It's just that they just have 100% access to me.

741
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,040
Pastor, I have a really important question.

742
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,560
I found a plate that doesn't match all the other ones in the kitchen, right?

743
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,960
It could just, yeah, it could just be a lot of stuff and it's not, it's not downplaying,

744
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:16,540
you know, people's needs at all, but it's, it's just protecting my time, knowing that

745
00:41:16,540 --> 00:41:17,960
people can still get ahold of me.

746
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:18,960
See, that's the thing.

747
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,520
It's like they can email, no issues.

748
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,800
I have a house phone that has a, that has a answer machine.

749
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:25,800
Perfect.

750
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,840
But what it allows for me to do is it allows for me to get back to people when I'm able

751
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:29,840
to.

752
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:30,840
Right.

753
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,880
And, you know, being bivocational, a lot of times I'll get phone calls in midday that

754
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:40,440
could seem very important for someone that, that I feel a responsibility because of my

755
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,480
role to like, to try to step out of what I'm doing, but I also have a responsibility to

756
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,840
what I'm doing.

757
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:54,040
And so it is, it's a really hard balance of, you know, of being available, but not jeopardizing

758
00:41:54,040 --> 00:42:00,680
other really important times that I have either working or with my family or, you know, I

759
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:06,400
say even my time because my time is, is also valuable because I need my time for my spiritual

760
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:07,400
studies.

761
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:08,440
I need my time for my spiritual practice.

762
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,720
I need my time just for my time.

763
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:11,720
Right.

764
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:12,720
You just can't pour from an empty cup.

765
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:13,720
Yeah.

766
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:14,720
Right.

767
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:18,400
So we've got to stay, I keep always using this word balance, but it's like, my biggest

768
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,480
pursuit is like the balance between bivocational balance, between family balance, between ministry

769
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,240
balance, between my personal interests, you know, and not losing myself in the midst of

770
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:29,720
everything else.

771
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:31,680
So I want to get a little practical here.

772
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,120
So one of the things where you haven't used the word, but you've been talking all around

773
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,340
it is boundaries, knowing how to establish clear boundaries for people.

774
00:42:39,340 --> 00:42:43,880
So when you are, as you're pastoring the church and let's just be honest, like church tends

775
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,880
to attract drama sometimes.

776
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,160
And so when people have like complaints, issues, like I've heard Nick talk about your guys'

777
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,240
process, the boundary you set up to deal with those types of things, which I think is incredibly

778
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,280
effective and it's like, you talk about the process.

779
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:02,400
Yeah, so like I said, you know, everything that we pick up, you know, this is not just

780
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,680
a, this is not just a me thing, right?

781
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,080
It wasn't something I just came up with.

782
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,400
It was something that I had gleaned from a conversation with a pastoral friend of mine

783
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,920
that I was just like, that's a genius.

784
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:12,920
Yeah.

785
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:13,920
It makes you feel better.

786
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,400
We still think from people all the time, so you just go right ahead.

787
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:20,760
So a lot of stuff, like I said, has been taken from other avenues, so, but has been tried

788
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,440
to been able to put together for our ministry, right?

789
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,240
So it's like pulling together all these different pieces and stuff that you feel like this could

790
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:29,240
be beneficial.

791
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:34,240
But anyway, so one of the things that, that we get that you can get in churches is they

792
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:36,040
call it right church drama.

793
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,440
And I feel like that's something we've been really fortunate, you know, over the last 10

794
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:45,720
years is not, we haven't had a whole lot of church drama because from the very beginning

795
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:47,160
we set these parameters.

796
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:54,080
We said, okay, so we understand that people are not going to always agree, right?

797
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,480
They're not going to like shocking like music.

798
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,200
They're not going to like all the speakers because, because we're bivocational, right?

799
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,960
So I have, I have a rotation of people who come up and preach and give the word.

800
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,020
And that was very weird for people in the beginning.

801
00:44:09,020 --> 00:44:10,600
Not a lot of people like that.

802
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:15,880
I won't say not a lot, but there was very, very, some very vocal people who did not think

803
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,400
this was the greatest idea in the world.

804
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,720
So but anyways, so I went into it and I said, okay guys, so we have, we have expectations,

805
00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:23,720
right?

806
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:25,760
And these are our expectations.

807
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,760
If you have something that you're upset about, if you have something that you're frustrated

808
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,360
about, we're not our deacons, they're not sounding boards.

809
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:38,840
I don't want us to use our leadership team or our other pastors as a sounding board because

810
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,600
I feel like that sows disunity, right?

811
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,600
If I go to someone and I just is like, well, I just want to, I just want to explain my,

812
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,040
my frustration.

813
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:49,600
And we do that constantly.

814
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:55,680
We're constantly sowing this disunity in the ministry and in this body.

815
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,520
And it can, you can start to get these little things of rot, right?

816
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,360
And then that can cause problems.

817
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,920
And so we said, if you have a issue, it's no problem because we want to hear about it,

818
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,700
but we want it to be done in context.

819
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:13,880
So we said, so first off is you have to stop and think about it, right?

820
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,380
You have to say, what am I upset about and why am I upset?

821
00:45:17,380 --> 00:45:21,640
Then you need to come up with two ways to fix it, right?

822
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,680
Which again, it allows for that to process.

823
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,260
Why am I upset?

824
00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:29,400
What am I looking for that can fix this?

825
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:34,580
And then the third thing is if possible, you have to be a part of the solution.

826
00:45:34,580 --> 00:45:40,160
And so I had a situation one time where someone came up to me and they're after church and

827
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,800
I'm not sharing anything private or anything.

828
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:48,520
So, but it was like, they're like, pastor, I had something that I was really frustrated

829
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,520
about, but I thought about what you have asked us to do.

830
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,080
And what I realized was that I was the problem.

831
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,160
And I was like, great.

832
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,440
And that was the end of the conversation.

833
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,760
Very often when I stop and think, I realized that that's probably the case.

834
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:05,760
Yeah.

835
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,120
And so, you know, so often the problems that, you know, that I want to complain about are

836
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:16,480
often my problems and it's just either because it's the way I like it to be done or the way

837
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,320
I want it to be done or the way that it has been done.

838
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,760
So we talk about, you know, the last couple of months, you know, we've talked about how

839
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,660
frustrating it is to have change, right?

840
00:46:27,660 --> 00:46:32,160
So if somebody sits in your seat at church that bothers or parks in your parking spot.

841
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,680
Incidentally, I just have to tell you a quick story here.

842
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,440
Pastor Clint mentioned from the pulpit that he's been sitting in that chair forever.

843
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,160
And I saw the light click on in Spencer's face the second that he saw that.

844
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:45,320
And he's going to be gone for a couple of weeks.

845
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,120
So when he came back, Spencer took up that whole row.

846
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,120
Oh yeah.

847
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,840
And I got called out from the pulpit.

848
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:51,840
Yeah, he did.

849
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:58,120
Well, I sat there looking from the back and I looked at my wife and I'm like, whose stuff

850
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:59,120
is that?

851
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:04,240
I think the best part was is your kids walked in and they threw their stuff on that rope,

852
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:08,080
paid no attention that I had coats draped all over that row.

853
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,640
And then then your wife comes up and is like, wait, someone sitting here?

854
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,480
Like what's going on?

855
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,320
What's because it's a funny thing because like it's toward the back of the church, like

856
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:18,320
nobody sits there.

857
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:23,520
Like, you know, it's just been it's been one of those seats that we've sat in for 12 years.

858
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:24,520
Yeah.

859
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,160
And so you just you find like this is our spot.

860
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,000
And yeah, it definitely can throw you off, you know, to have change.

861
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:33,000
Right.

862
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:40,360
And that's the that's the piece of those, you know, we we put these things in place

863
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:47,160
to to help us stay connected as we're coming in and landing this this idea of Jethro coming

864
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,800
and helping others understand that you need to learn how to balance this load.

865
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,920
You need to learn how to not take everything on yourself.

866
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,200
I want to like give a couple of takeaways that we can talk about here.

867
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:01,240
The first is in this big one that you said, Pastor Clint was don't do this alone.

868
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:02,240
Right.

869
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:04,480
Like we're not supposed to do this alone.

870
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:05,920
Like any of it.

871
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:06,920
We're made for a community.

872
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,160
Like we start we established that in Genesis one.

873
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,560
We're not made to do this by ourselves.

874
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:12,800
Right.

875
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:17,140
I can still still take all the responsibilities on my shoulder and just expect people to come

876
00:48:17,140 --> 00:48:18,140
along with me.

877
00:48:18,140 --> 00:48:19,140
Right.

878
00:48:19,140 --> 00:48:24,560
But it's really about just trusting that that the spirit of God in this mission is through

879
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,080
is working through all of us.

880
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:27,080
Right.

881
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,080
Right.

882
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,800
And that the spirit of us has something very special to offer this right.

883
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,480
This this direction that God is bringing us.

884
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:36,480
Right.

885
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:42,720
And I think that's that like we need to come along one another in in the ministry.

886
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:43,720
Yeah.

887
00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:50,920
And you know and just by chance you know where God has placed me he's he's put me in this

888
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,160
in this process of leadership.

889
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,280
But the thing is I don't always lead.

890
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:56,280
Right.

891
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:02,560
Because I do a lot of following you know because we have other leaders in the church.

892
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:08,120
And so to be a good leader you know we we we distinctly say you also have to be a good

893
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:09,120
follower right.

894
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:10,120
Right.

895
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,520
And Jesus has shown us that that example.

896
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:13,920
Yeah.

897
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,280
So good.

898
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,520
One of the words you said in there and you kind of danced around it but partnership.

899
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:19,520
Right.

900
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,840
It's partnership is not I'm going to tell you what to do and you go do it.

901
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,360
Partnership is we're going to do this together.

902
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:25,360
Right.

903
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:26,960
And we have a better way.

904
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:27,960
Yeah.

905
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:28,960
Yeah.

906
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,680
Let's be honest like if you've ever had a partner.

907
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:31,680
OK.

908
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,120
So if you're listening to this and you're married I guarantee you at some point your

909
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,800
spouse has had a better way to do something than you did it.

910
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,080
Like I guarantee you my wife is every day of my life.

911
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,360
Every day of my life you're like hey I've got a really great idea and you share to them

912
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,360
they're like why don't we just do it like this.

913
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,520
And you're like yeah that's better.

914
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,120
One of my best examples of that is I was prepping for a sermon and I was telling Tara I was

915
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,080
like oh I got this thing here and this thing.

916
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:54,080
She's like listening.

917
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,240
So it's basically this and I'm like yeah that's better.

918
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:58,420
Let's just say it that way.

919
00:49:58,420 --> 00:49:59,860
That's much better.

920
00:49:59,860 --> 00:50:04,080
So we just want to we want to be really thankful that you are here partnering with us today

921
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:05,460
on the podcast.

922
00:50:05,460 --> 00:50:09,840
And the other thing is that we also want to mention we talk about it on the podcast a

923
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:10,840
lot.

924
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,800
We talk about because we talk about our experiences we talk about the church and we just want

925
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:20,600
to talk about like how much we value you as a pastor specifically that we recognize that

926
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,520
there are a lot of people who are able to bring the gospel preach and you're equipping

927
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,980
people very well for the ministry.

928
00:50:26,980 --> 00:50:31,340
And I believe that the fruit is showing all throughout our church and our community.

929
00:50:31,340 --> 00:50:34,620
So with that thank you all for listening.

930
00:50:34,620 --> 00:50:36,760
You know where to find us.

931
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,760
That's kind of creepy but yeah you know where to find us.

932
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,360
So thank you all for listening.

933
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:47,880
If you have questions email us love in context at gmail.com or shoot us a message on Instagram.

934
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,740
Thank you so much for listening today.

935
00:50:49,740 --> 00:50:55,260
We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we hope that you got something out of it.

936
00:50:55,260 --> 00:51:01,720
If you have any questions please contact us at love and context at gmail.com.

937
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:05,560
You can also follow us on Instagram and message us through there.

938
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:12,680
Instagram is love and context again love and context at gmail.com or Instagram are the

939
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,560
two ways to get ahold of us if you would like.

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00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:16,700
Thank you once again.

941
00:51:16,700 --> 00:51:19,000
We really appreciate you being here.

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God bless.