Welcome to the Love in Context podcast of Unscripted Conversation with Ben and Spencer.
So glad that you could join us today, whether that's from your car, office, home, church,
or wherever you're at.
If you want to contact us, you can email us at lovingcontext at gmail.com.
Also follow us on Instagram at lovingcontext.
Welcome to the Love in Context podcast, where we talk in an unscripted manner.
I'm Spencer.
I am Ben.
Yeah, and there's Ben sitting across from me, because you can totally tell that's the
case.
Yep.
I'm being friendly and waving my fingers at him in a wavy finger manner.
That's totally a saying.
That's something people say, right?
We have a guest this week, somebody who actually will tolerate us.
So my friend and also one of our pastors, Nick, is here visiting us today.
Say hi, Nick.
Hey, what's up?
So, Nick, we have been friends for a long time.
Some would say too long.
Yeah.
Usually that's you that says that.
That's me.
One of the stories that Nick and I tell on a frequent basis when we talk about knowing
each other is he was a reluctant friend of mine.
I met him and I told him we were going to be friends.
He says, yeah, right.
And I said, here we are 20 years later.
I was right.
He was right.
Yeah.
You kept trying to get away.
I tried to, and then just didn't work out.
The funny thing on my end is I've heard both Nick and Ben tell the same stories from different
perspectives and I've been like, do you sound like two different stories?
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
But it's like, there's the right one, the one I tell, and then the wrong one, which
is the one Nick tells.
One's a better storyteller and the other's not.
That's all I'm saying.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
So Nick, we're in Exodus and you kind of know where we've been talking about.
And you've listened to the podcast, right?
So you're kind of familiar.
I'm pretty close.
I didn't go for my weekly walk to catch up fully, but I probably have podcasts behind
me.
You have podcasts behind you.
You kind of get what we do here.
So if you have not read your Bible, you should do that.
We should do that.
You can pause the podcast and we're going to be reading, you're going to want to read
Exodus 12 through 18 or up to 18.
We're going to be talking about the things that happened in between there.
So last week we were talking about this confrontation of Moses and Pharaoh, right?
And we talked about how God is a God who pursues relentlessly people that we don't want to
go after, right?
He's after Pharaoh and he's after Egypt and he's like, I want you in my family, right?
Because that's who God is.
The whole point of even working through Israel is that they're supposed to bless all nations.
God puts his people at the crossroads of the world because it's through them, all the nations
are going to be blessed.
The whole point is that everybody's supposed to come back.
In fact, we're going to talk about the temple later, but like when you look at the temple
in Jerusalem, there's like the Holy of Holies and there's the court.
The court of the Gentiles is massive compared to the temple itself.
It's almost like God's telling a story that it's always about all nations, right?
And so we see in the story of the Exodus, God isn't coming and he's not beating up on Egypt,
but he's actually challenging Egypt's gods.
He says, you're trusting in your gods of water and your gods of afterlife, your gods of livestock,
your gods of all these different things.
And you're not realizing that I, the God who was the God who is the God who will be, am
the one who is actually going to bring you through all of this.
Like he's telling a story to the Egyptians.
Are you going to trust me or are you going to continue to trust in your fake gods?
Yeah.
And he starts to lead Israel on this journey of trust.
Right.
Because if you, if you actually follow Israel's journey out of Egypt, it's not a direct route
that they take.
Nope.
No, it's actually a route that you would look at on a map and be like, that's interesting.
Like, like that's a, that's a fun route that you went.
Why'd you do that?
So, and if you look at their journey, like the Lord's leading them on a trust journey.
If you look at the route they took out of Egypt, it was not a direct route.
Right.
Because they went in a very roundabout way.
Right.
And which once again, we're going to recommend that book, the Exodus, you almost passed over
by Rabbi David Foreman.
A lot of insight because that's not the first time they took that journey.
No, it's not.
Yeah.
So one of the things you want to always pay attention contextually in the word is that
there are patterns.
Yeah.
And they're important because the person who's writing is assuming that you as a Middle Eastern
listener recognize patterns and identify what's going on.
Like it's an assumption that you're going to actually connect those things.
Yeah.
So, so here we are, like now the 10 plagues have come and Pharaoh's like, you know what?
It's time for you to go.
Right.
It is time for you to go.
And so they're not just leaving, like they basically loot the entire country.
Yeah.
Right.
Cause they're like, go ask your neighbors for gold and silver, which by the way, that
gold is not going to age well, but go ask for gold and silver.
I'm talking about something coming up in Exodus, like 32 and ask for food and for oxen.
And so like they leave and they've got like just a ton of stuff, just a ton of stuff on
a very broad level.
Can we also just say that maybe when you listen to do things, God's way, it ends better than
if you just left on your own terms.
Yeah.
Right.
Like that, that's a, that's a huge takeaway from that.
Like God has a plan.
He's going to fund his, and you know, and Egypt is not, not poor.
Like Egypt's a really rich country.
Like you don't build pyramids because you're poor.
I think it's really interesting here.
So they're, they're headed out of Egypt.
They're in the desert and they're being led by a pillar fire at night and a cloud during
the day and wherever that leads, they follow.
Right.
That's actually going to be a reoccurring theme throughout Torah is that the cloud of
God is going to move and Israel follows.
I really wish we could get the church to follow that idea today.
Right.
I get nothing.
I was just going to give you a right and a not.
I love it.
I was nodding my head and I had to say right out loud.
Yeah.
It's so good.
And you know, because I think a lot of times we try to build systems that we think accomplishes
the will of God and God's like, that's cool, but I'm over here.
I don't want you over there.
I want you over here.
And so frequently we try to put our strengths on display and God's like, Hey, you know your
weaknesses.
I can work with that.
Those things that you're not good at when you suddenly are really good at something
that you're terrible at, the people are like, well, clearly God had to be in this situation.
Right.
I remember when I was first tasked with video creating and editing and stuff like that,
I had no idea what I was doing.
No idea.
Yeah.
And then the church I was working at, we're going to start doing testimonial videos.
And I was like, that's great.
And they're like, and Spencer, you're going to make them perfect.
And I'm like, all right, sounds good.
And so I spent time praying about it, did the research that I could and just dove in
and they turned out fine.
Like they turned out fine.
It took a lot of learning.
There was definitely some that were more of a flop than others, but like it was something
that the Lord had his hand in and it blessed people.
Right, so they're coming out of Egypt, they're in the desert, they're being led, and then
they come to this body of water and like God puts them into like a position to once again,
he's going to put on display the judgment of Egypt's gods.
Right.
And so then Egypt, Pharaoh looks and he's like, Oh, look at them.
They're all confused.
They don't know where to go.
Right.
They don't know where they're supposed to go.
And like, and so then he sends his entire army to come after them.
500 chariots are bearing down on them, right?
With the other armies.
That's just the chariots.
It's not like the other horses because it's not just chariots as you're mounted horses
and like, and then you got foot soldiers and like all sorts of things.
Right.
So Egypt's might, the pinnacle of like military might at this time.
This is the world's superpower.
Yeah.
At the time.
This is not, this is not a small country coming after you.
This is the military superpower of the time saying, okay, we are going to take back what
is ours.
Yeah.
And so they go and they are pursuing them in what looks like a dead end, except they're
right in the middle of where God is planning them to be.
Yeah.
Right.
So I have, I have a thought about the Red Sea and I'm sure that you're surprised that
I have a thought about that.
I find it really interesting that one, the people are like, you led us out into the desert
to die.
Like they literally just saw the pretend plagues.
Fear inside of ice, right?
Like this is something they just saw.
And they're like, well, clearly now we're going to die.
We're also kind of says to your point how fearsome this army looks.
Yeah.
And this isn't the only time they do this after they cross the Red Sea, not much time
passes before the golden calf.
Yeah.
Like, like don't get too far ahead.
That's coming up.
But like, it's not the first time that they do this.
Stop trying to jump to chapter three in Genesis.
We're in chapter one, that's a previous callback joke.
Anyways, so Nick, your experience, have you ever been in a position where everything seems
hopeless and you're like, Oh dear God, I hope you help me.
Yeah.
It's called the youth ministry.
So good.
Oh man.
But really, I mean, yeah, there's just those moments in whether it's ministry or life,
you're just like, well, here we go.
Let's do it.
I love that Moses comes to God.
He's like, these people, they're, they're yelling at me.
And to be fair, the words that they use, I mean, he's literally, they're about to kill
him.
Right?
Right.
So it's not like they're just yelling at him.
It's not like, Oh, they hurt my feelings.
They're, if his fear of his life.
And I was like, why are you complaining to me?
Stretch out your hand and see what's going to happen.
Do something.
Right.
Do something.
And there's a piece that I think is really interesting here because this is going to
be a really important piece later in Israel's history.
So in chapter 14, in verse 13, Moses answers the people.
He says, do not be afraid, stand firm and you will see the deliverance.
The Lord will bring you today.
The Egyptians you see today, you will never see again.
The Lord will fight for you.
You only need to be still.
And then God says to Moses, he says, why are you crying out to me?
Well, the Israelites to move on.
And of course, if I'm Moses, I'm like, where?
Right?
Yeah.
You got cliffs on each side of you.
You have a sea in front of you and you have the world's superpower behind you.
Right?
Right.
It's God logic.
He's like, clearly you're supposed to walk through the water.
Uh huh.
Right?
Yeah.
But by the way, we were talking about Jesus having a sense of humor and he, it says like
when he's walking on the waves, he says, it says that he's going to pass them.
Right?
And it's like, I just get this picture of like Jesus like waving at them as he's going
by he's like, Hey guys, how's it going?
Right?
He says, stretch out your hand and over the sea and divide the water so that the Israelites
can go through the sea on dry land.
So what I think is interesting here is that at this point, Moses says to them, he says,
stand and see the deliverance of God because Israel is going to walk through on dry land,
but this isn't the only time they're going to run into water and they're going to have
to cross water.
After the book of Deuteronomy, Joshua is going to lead the people back into the promised
land.
God's going to give him instruction.
He says, you're going to have the, the priest go in front of you with the arc of the covenant
on your shoulders and I want you to go and walk into the river.
And now it's a flood season.
So the river's huge.
And he says, when your foot hits the ground, the water won't be there.
So one time it's stand and deliver and watch what God's going to do.
And the other time he says, I'm not going to do anything until you put your foot out
there.
There's a call forward into Psalms as well.
When it talks about the Lord delivering you from your oppressor.
So there's two miracles happening side by side here.
So not only is God parting the Red Sea so the Israelites can walk through, but he's
also holding the Egyptian army at bay.
Yeah.
Right.
He's saying, okay, I'm going to create a path and deliver you from this.
And I'm going to hold your oppressors at bay so that you can safely get out of this situation.
Yeah.
Right.
And I don't know, like maybe there's someone who's listening who needs to hear that.
The Lord's like, there's deliverance that happens.
And not only, it's not just deliverance, but he's also holding back the opposition.
Right.
And let's be clear.
That doesn't happen in every situation in life.
Right.
There's points in scripture too, where, where there's deliverance that's happening, but
it doesn't feel like the opposition is being held back.
Right.
Like, I mean, I can think of Gideon, for example, like there's deliverance happening, but it,
but there's still huge armies and they're still under occupation.
Right.
So it's, I don't want to take that statement from Exodus and be like, that applies across
the board to everybody.
Nope.
It's too like broadly, because it doesn't.
Yeah.
Right.
But there are times where that does happen.
Right.
Where the, where you are being delivered from something and the opposition's being held
at bay.
Right.
And we see with that, like, like I said, sometimes God is going to come and deliver you.
Yeah.
Sometimes he's going to say, you need to take a step.
Both of those are moves of God.
And so it becomes really important that we learn to hear the voice of God.
See where the cloud is.
If we're listening to our voice, my voice is going to lead me into bad places often.
Yeah.
My voice thinks that I need another cheeseburger, right?
Always.
Always need another cheeseball.
I need, and with that cheeseburger, I should have some cheesecake.
Oh, you're sensing a theme.
It's a lot of dairy, right?
Yeah.
That sounds like, and then when you get done, you don't do this.
Nick, Nick is adamant.
Like cheese is not a flavor.
Cheese is just, it's whatever I could take it or leave it.
Man, we're going to put that on a coffee mug for you.
She's just whatever I could take it or leave it.
Yeah.
So that's the cream, that's where it's at, but cheese itself is just whatever.
Cheese itself.
Yeah.
I do want to direct, there is some interesting things going on in the Hebrew.
So we're always going to direct back to Vama podcast and Bible project have some really
great insights into what's going on in Hebrew.
We're not going to focus so much on that because they do a great job.
We're not going to retrod old ground.
How hard is it, how hard is it to sit back and wait for God to come through?
I mean, you think about, I just think about so many times in my life where it's youth
ministry.
I did youth ministry for a long time where, you know, I started youth in the youth ministry
as a youth pastor.
Things were just crazy good all the time, chaotic and weird stuff happened, but the
ministry was just phenomenal.
And then I think of times, you know, youth ministry seasonal, you got springtime and
that's just like, that's the time of growth and you hit summer and then, and where we're
at we're seasonal literally.
So we're in Alaska summertime is like all the kids are out fishing, you know, doing
stuff with family travel.
Great.
Now they know we're in a fishing place.
I just mess with Alaska bro.
Fishing is everywhere.
What are you talking about?
And well, they're not in fear rings.
The joke that we have around here is like, if you're doing a youth ministry event and
it's in the summer and the day is beautiful, you better move that thing to a boat.
Yeah.
Otherwise no one's showing up.
That's legit.
Move it to a boat and there better be some rods and reels.
Nothing's happening.
Or not, or like, or you're just not, or you're going to be sitting there by yourself being
like, why didn't anybody come?
Yeah.
It's cause you weren't fishing.
And then you get right into the, into September and it's like late August and September and
you're like starting ministry all over again.
We hit Christmas, you know, it's big, it's great.
Lots of parties.
So what I, what I hear you saying is that like the actual waiting on the Lord is not
hard, but it's hard and maybe emotionally emotionally, it can be super draining.
Cause it's like, I just convinced the board to give me all this money to do so and so
idea and nothing is happening.
Like very, very like that's a downer and it's a downer for seven days and then it turns
14 days cause didn't work again and you know, not that 10 kids showing up instead of 50.
That's a downer.
10 kids is actually pretty great.
Right.
You know, in the long run, it's just interesting.
Yeah.
Just, you just got to wait it out and just wait for the Lord to do his thing, especially
over the longterm.
So I have a kind of a older, I guess I'll use the word mentor, but he was kind of doing
different youth ministry in my high school when I was in high school and I had a discussion
with him recently.
He knows Spencer really well and he was talking about how doing ministry with my group of
kids that I was in in high school, how it was very emotionally draining for him and
how we sucked the life out of him just cause you know, was it we or was it you?
It wasn't me actually.
I was, I mean, I wasn't helping, but it wasn't me personally, but just out of that group
of kids being in ministry that he put, he put a lot into us.
Like he really did.
He was above and beyond when it came to relationship building and getting to know us really well.
And he's always just like, you're, you know, in this conversation I have with him is like
your group, I put so much into you guys and nothing came out of it.
I think he's like, you're the only one who's stuck around in ministry or in life, like
the only one there.
And so for him, that's a good example.
Like he poured a lot into these kids and visually or what he sees today, which doesn't mean
everything is no fruit from it, which is kind of a, not the best feeling.
Yeah.
It's hard.
I can relate to that.
Like I remember the youth ministry job that I had where there was about 40 students that
were coming and there's one student I had an impact on.
Right.
And it, and that's tough.
Like even as a ministry leader, that's tough to be like, okay, I'm here for this season
in time and you're expecting the God to move in mighty powerful ways that you're perceiving
from an earthly perspective.
And then God's like, all right, you're going to have impact on one person.
Right.
It's it's a totally different mindset that we have to shift into sometimes of being like,
okay, who's that?
Who's the one or two people in our lives that we know the Lord wants us to reach out to?
Right.
I think it's hard to see metaphorically the Pharaoh bearing down on you.
Right.
And you can even see the cloud between you and Pharaoh.
And then God's like, oh, by the way, I split the sea.
Now you get to walk through it.
Isn't like, this is a weird thing.
Okay.
I mean, you're walking through water on both sides, right?
Like this is, this is a crazy thing to do.
I mean, I know that they've just seen crazy, but like it's tough.
I mean, like that, that'd be terrifying for me.
Like, listen, I, I trust God.
Right.
But that water's real wet.
And like, so they go through, but here's the thing that I think is really interesting.
So it says that once they're most of the way through the angel of the Lord goes from the
back of them.
Right.
And it goes back to the front of them.
So now there's nothing between Egypt and the Israelites.
Now if you're a Pharaoh at this point, how does your brain go?
Okay, now I got them.
Is this, is this really your thought?
Now I got them.
Except I know that I have been a little Pharaoh sometimes and I'm like, oh, this is my chance
to finally get what I want.
And I plunge head first right into the middle of a sea that's about to crash on me.
God's like, I'm going to step away from it.
And I'm like, I'm going to run into that.
Right.
And I actually feel myself where Pharaoh is a little bit.
Yeah.
And the other thing that's important to note on this is we're not talking about a river.
Right.
We're not talking about like, oh, a river.
It's going to take everybody 15 minutes to walk across this thing.
We're talking at a distance.
I don't know the exact distance, but we're talking a distance to where it is likely that
they might've had to actually camp out on the sea floor for a night or two to get across.
Right.
And the water sustaining being departed on both sides.
But to get down a couple thousand feet and be like, all right, we're crossing this.
And then to be like, okay, we got to make camp so we can rest.
Right.
Talk about trust.
Yeah.
And what the Lord's doing.
Yeah.
It's a ton of trust.
I mean, it's no wonder that through the rest of the Bible, we're referencing back to the
Exodus because God is doing some truly awesome things here.
And specifically, he's putting his character on display because even in this situation,
like Pharaoh has gone after him.
And I understand like people are going to go read back on hardened the heart and blah,
blah, blah.
Okay.
Go back and actually do some research.
Go read some rabbi de reforman, like go read some stuff about the Hebrew because what's
happening is not what you think is happening.
Right.
But in this situation, like Pharaoh is still going to like go and pursue and get what he
wants and like all these different things.
But God is still giving grace to Pharaoh in the middle of this.
He's not telling me he has to come into the water.
Right.
I wonder because there is the rabbinic conversation about if Pharaoh had answered Moses initially
and let them go out and actually worship, would God have taken them through the Exodus
or would he have actually changed Egypt, right?
Brought Pharaoh into relationship with him.
I'm entering a thought experiment.
Thought experiment.
Yes.
Do not take this as biblical doctrine.
Right.
I wonder if there's not an invitation here to Pharaoh again to trust Yahweh.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
It wouldn't be out of his character.
It would not be out of his character at all.
Like that's totally within the character of who God is.
And I just, I think the tendency sometimes when we read the story is we're like, oh,
you know, God has just beaten up on Egypt.
Well, God also loves Egypt, but he's got to take his people out to put a story on display
because it's more important than one nation.
It's actually about all nations.
So the next thing that happens in here is they all sing a song together, which by the
way, if we want to talk about spontaneous worship, right?
That's this right here, right?
Yep.
That's it.
Yeah.
We should try this on Sunday sometime, like just coming up with like a whole song because
like the song of Moses and Miriam is very long.
I think that, you know, we should probably like try to come up with something like this
long.
It's got enough words, right?
Right.
I think that, I think that the media people in the back would be very upset with, they
try to catch up with like, okay, what are the words now?
Yeah.
Right.
Once you're off, you're off.
So people who are listening who don't know, Spencer actually plays drums.
He'd probably be the only one that doesn't need help.
He would just keep playing drums.
Right.
Yeah.
Side note on that.
So when we had this inspiration a few weeks ago and you messed up the lyrics, you're like,
oh, my bad.
I was like, no, that represents the AG.
What are you talking about?
Oh man.
So great.
Yeah.
I was, I was so focused on getting to verse two that I started to sing those lyrics instead
of verse one.
I think that the natural reaction to God doing incredible things is absolutely worship.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
I think one of the issues is we have a tendency to think worship is just song, whereas worship
is not limited to just what you say.
It's more encompassing of like, how do you live your life?
Yeah.
Right.
And every time I see something like this in scripture, I do ask the question, where are
they physically at in this moment?
And the answer is they just entered into a desert.
Like they didn't cross the Red Sea, get to a lush green garden and be like, everything
is great.
They crossed the Red Sea.
They're like, we were delivered.
They praise God, but now they're sitting in a desert with nothing.
Right?
With nothing except for what they carried through the Red Sea.
Right.
And so to be in a spot where it's like, okay, God, you delivered, we're going to worship,
we're going to praise you.
We're going to honor you.
Even though all we have is what's on our backs right now.
Right.
But they've seen, you know, I mean, in their defense, like they've seen like God do some
crazy things, right?
And so they're excited because like, Hey, they're oppressors.
The whole armor is just wiped out.
Yeah.
Right.
Like that's cool.
Yeah.
And they're like, they're like, woo, our God's better than your God.
You know, like that's like their thing.
Right.
That's the exact words I written in excess.
It says sing in high pitch voice.
Worship is nothing more than responding to what God is.
Yeah.
Right.
I think of that song Waymaker, right?
We sing, you know, Waymaker, Miracle Worker, Promise Keeper, Light in the Darkness.
But the tag on that is that is who you are.
Right.
And worship is a reaction to who God is.
Because I think when we have God in a proper view, we recognize the nature of God as love
and mercy and grace and goodness in the world.
Our natural reaction is going to be to worship.
Right.
I can edit that pause.
No, we're leaving it there.
Yeah.
But we pause on the idea of worship though for a little bit.
Yes, please.
Yeah.
We've all led worship before, right?
Yeah.
Around this, at least us sitting around this coffee table in my living room.
We've all led worship.
And there's seasons where we see great signs of deliverance like this.
Yeah.
Right.
Where we're leading worship, the spirit is moving.
There's also been times where I've led worship where I'm walking into it feeling completely
empty.
Right.
Like where I'm walking into it being like, I got like little to nothing to offer right
now.
And if I'm honest, some of those times have been the most powerful worship times I've
been a part of where the Lord's like, all right, you got nothing.
Don't worry.
I got you.
Right.
My dog's agreeing upstairs right now.
Where he's worshiping.
Yeah.
He's praising Jesus right now.
All of creation is respected in creation.
So, but there's times where I've come into worship having nothing to offer.
And the Lord just moves in a mighty powerful way.
And he's like, don't worry.
You got nothing.
He's like, I got you covered.
Well, if you take my nothing and add it to God, it's incredible.
Right?
It's actually better than if I have a bunch and I bring it and add it to God.
Because usually he has to prune away the things that aren't good about me.
Speaking of things that aren't good, almost immediately Israel runs into an issue.
Now I want to be like, I want to be like really like in their defense.
The desert is hot.
Yes.
True.
Like it's so hot.
So in our town, if it gets to like 85 degrees, I see people running around in tank tops and
shorts and they're like, it's so hot.
The desert is way hotter than that.
Right.
I complain when I haven't had my second cup of coffee for the day.
They don't have water to drink.
Right.
You can just imagine like, you ever wake up and your throat, it just feels like somebody
stuffed like a bunch of cotton balls down there.
Yeah.
Right.
So imagine like going an entire day where you're that dry.
Put yourself in this, because I think one of the things we need to do when we talk about
the Israelites is we need to first of all realize that we're grafted into the story
and we wouldn't be any better.
In fact, we'd be much worse because we're Americans and so we would not do well in the
desert.
Well, especially where we're from, I just like to tell people, I was like, yeah, people
were here.
They just like to complain about the weather.
Yeah.
Doesn't matter what it's doing.
They just like to complain about it.
Yeah.
So yeah, if we were in the desert, there's definitely some people in this town that I'm
like, yeah, I don't want you with me if we're going to go to the desert.
Yeah.
Nick, you go to Hawaii, right?
When it's really nice and sunny.
Absolutely.
He loves Hawaii.
Nick is like, if Alaska and Hawaii had a baby, it'd be Nick.
Right?
Interesting.
Yeah.
So when you're out there and it gets way more sunnier and you're still by the ocean, but
like seriously, how much do you have to hydrate?
A ton.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm drinking an obscene amount of water.
So they're going and the first place that they go to is this place they go and drink
the water and it's bitter.
Now I've had some nasty water, but I never described it as bitter.
Right?
But it's some bitter, bitter water.
Right?
And the people start grumbling against Moses.
Now once again, on being their defense, it's hot.
It's real hot.
So Moses, like he cries out to God and God shows them to take a piece of wood, which
I mean, I guess apparently that's how you treat water in God's economy.
He was like, throw a piece of wood in there and it just purifies this water.
But then God issues them a ruling and instruction and puts them to the test.
Right?
And like this, they come and there's like one well, there's like one piece of water.
But then the crazy thing that happens after this is that when they move on from it, there's
this place that they go and they stay, it's called a lean and there's 12 springs, but
there's also 70 palm trees, which let's be honest, you're in the desert, palm trees.
Yes, please hide somewhere under the shade.
And I think it's really interesting that sometimes we go and we complain about the water at Mara
and God's like, well, I'm trying to take you to a lean.
Right?
Yeah.
Like we get so caught up in where we are that we forget where we're going.
Yeah.
This is a theme in Israel's life.
Theme in our life.
It's a theme in our life.
Yeah, too.
And in the life of Israel, this continues over and over where they'll be like, why are
we here?
Lord, why'd you bring us here?
What are we doing here?
God's got something bigger in store.
We do the same thing in our lives.
I mean, I can think of time and time again in my life where I'm like, okay, God, why?
Like why'd you bring me here?
Did you just bring me here to suffer, to be in pain?
And the Lord's like, no, no, no, you're on the journey.
I'm taking you from one place to another.
And when you get there, you're going to realize how good it is.
Right.
And with that said, please don't equate good with easy.
Right.
Like I think all too often we can be like, oh, it was good.
And then just kind of think in our heads like, oh, it meant it was easy.
That's not what it means at all.
Like having something good in your life can be very difficult, but it can be good.
Yeah.
Right.
So one of the things that Nick and I like to do is work on cars.
The end result can be really good.
Have we gotten to an end result yet?
Or he said it can be.
Potential in the future.
Currently we have two projects that are like half ripped apart.
We're like, oh, okay.
But the end result can be really good.
The journey getting there though, it can be a little rocky.
A little.
Right.
So we were this, hopefully there's some car people on this podcast that are listening,
but we were, we were swapping out a valve cover gasket on a car.
Those are words.
And Ben is not a car person.
And everything's going smooth in this.
And then we get too smooth.
Too smooth.
And then we get to this last bolt to pull ahead to get to the valve cover gasket and
the bolt snaps.
And we're like, well.
We done.
We're done.
Right.
And then at the end of the day, the owner of the car is able to get their car fixed.
All these things, everything ended out well.
And the journey was worth it.
Yeah.
Right.
It was a good time.
We can look back on it and we had a good time.
So side note, the owner of the car did not speak good English.
So like the whole time he was like, I don't know what you're saying.
Just trusting that you're saying good things.
Yeah.
This is the person that you told to come to me for their car advice, right?
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I don't think you've ever asked how to fix anything with your car.
Yeah.
Anyways, the very roundabout, but the point being is that there's always a, there's a
journey to something.
Right.
And Israel is going through this journey.
The Lord's taking us through this journey and he wants to lead us to a good spot, but
there's going to be seasons of feeling like we're in the desert.
Yeah.
When you're running into this, okay, so like first it's going to be Mara and then it's
going to come up.
Like they're going to complain about not having food, right?
Which cause once your thirst is taken care of, what do you think about food?
Right?
Yeah.
Like they're in the desert.
Right.
But so God actually provides for them.
They're literally get manna from heaven.
Like if you don't know manna actually literally means what is this?
That's what manna means.
It's what is this?
Because they don't know.
I mean, it's weird as like the whole thing is what do you mean?
They just collected bread from the ground.
Yeah.
Right.
That's, that's a crazy thing.
Yeah.
That's how I get bread.
I just go out and just, dude, that's not bread.
Yeah.
That's not bread.
And so like, well, you're to your point, don't equate easy with good.
They're going to have this bread that they're going to be able to eat.
But what do you have to actually do?
You got to actually collect the bread, right?
You're going to see the extent of my bread making skills here.
Okay.
You've got to collect it.
You've got to do what you do to make stuff into bread.
Like it bread isn't just, they didn't just collect the manna and suddenly it was bread.
They had to actually make it into bread.
Yes.
Every day.
Yes.
Right.
And so on the sixth day that they collect for the Sabbath.
Right.
And there's this invitation is, Hey, I'm going to provide for you, but you got to come and
meet me.
It's not just like, like bread wasn't showing up in their, in their tent in the morning.
I also think it's interesting because God is also like, he's, he's giving them a lot
of chances to learn how to trust him because on the sixth day they have to collect twice
as much bread.
I do think it's actually worth noting here that it actually does say that when they go
and collect the bread, nobody had too much and nobody had too little.
Like so we need to credit the Israelites with actually doing what God told them to do.
Yeah.
Cause they're going to make mistakes, but they're also occasionally going to do it,
do exactly what God tells them to do.
Yeah.
And then you also need to credit God with providing what you need, not necessarily what
you want.
Oh man.
Hold on a second.
That'll preach all day to Americans.
Yes.
Yes, it will.
But here you see they were provided for their needs.
Culted and purification of water so they could drink it.
And then also in the provision for shade, also in the provision of manna, right?
They're provided for their needs.
Now what God did not do is God did not send a caravan of camels to carry them to the promised
land.
Some great alliteration.
I have one big overlying theme I was thinking about as we're going through this.
It's kind of like Israel is going through all of this, even getting to the Red Sea,
getting through the Red Sea, getting a time of like celebration and worship, then getting
water not great, and then it's excellent and then getting food.
But we know there's this undercurrent of that they're, they're kind of still thinking about
Egypt because it's comfortable.
It's a bad comfortable.
It's a stability, but it's a bad stability.
But it's better than the unknown that they're headed to.
And I see that a lot, a lot of people's lives in general through any walk with the Lord.
It's like, it's like, oh, this is so much better.
And we see that sometimes in younger, those young in the faith, it's like super exciting.
And then things get, there's a little unknown sometimes for some of them, depending on their
past.
I just think it's an interesting thing for the Israelites.
It's like that comfort of what was behind them is always better than that super hot
terrible desert in front of them.
Yeah.
So if I was to ask you how the world take it, if people became comfortable with the
unknown in their lives, if people are comfortable with the unknown.
Yeah.
Because so I'll preface it a little bit more.
So like the known is comfortable for us, right?
We will stay in bad situations because we understand them.
Yeah.
Yes.
Right.
So like the known is comfortable for us.
I know people who stay in horrible work situations because they know they're going to get a paycheck.
Right.
I know people who have stayed in abusive relationships because they know there's actually some stability
there of what they can expect, even though everything they can expect is horrible.
Yeah.
Right?
So those are not good situations, but they're known situations that people are comfortable
with.
Right.
So the idea of becoming more comfortable with the unknown, the idea of, okay, I'm going
to step out of this job because it's going to be healthier for me in the long run, even
though I don't know where my next paycheck is going to come from.
Right.
Or I'm going to step out of this abusive relationship knowing that potentially I'm not going to
have a roof over my head.
Right.
And trust the Lord in that.
So that's kind of what I was getting at.
Like, what would it be like if people became more comfortable with the unknown and essentially
trusting in the Lord and what he's promised of him?
Totally.
So this is actually a conversation I had with Pastor Clint.
Clint, not that long ago, we were having discussion with, me and Clint are in the community quite
a bit and we're involved in a lot of different organizations and athletic stuff and just
people in general, we just meet a lot of people in the community.
We're just relationship kind of people.
That's how we've done all ministry anyway.
And so his thing was the discussion we were having is like, we keep meeting these people
and everybody's just like, well, I don't really need, you know, my life's okay.
It's fine.
It's not great.
There's nothing special, but I don't need, you know, a savior in my life because, you
know, it's not, I don't feel terrible about anything.
Like I'm not, but it's like, well, do you want it to be better?
It would be nice if my life was a little better, but you know, it's not, you know, if I am
a Christian or I'm connected to Christianity, I mean, some people might not like, you know,
friends might not like me.
Relationships I have might take that as offensive.
Christianity has strong stands on things.
Maybe I'm still working out what I feel.
It's a really, that's a place of comfort.
It's that great comfort.
You know, I don't know, I don't have an opinion on what the future holds or if who's holding
this all together, the chaos of the universe, but it's better.
I don't know.
Just being like the comfort of being American is like, cool.
We get money.
We take care of ourselves.
We can play video games.
We can distract ourselves from reality.
This is great.
Or we can connect with something greater, build, connect with the spirit of God, know
who this is.
You know, we know us three, obviously, and those listening, I hope all understand like
how awesome it is having that faith and following through into this unknown.
I mean, it is.
And like, I'm not, I'm not so afraid of the unknown.
Like I don't like, I just do things like I, you know, that's just, I'm just going to live
out life and do it.
Well, let me, let me ask you this because you have been married a little bit longer
than I have, not much, but a little bit.
Do you remember being a bachelor?
Yeah.
By yourself?
Yeah.
Like there was, I had one set of sheets, you know, sometimes, you know, if, if I spilled
something on them and, and the thing is, is that like I had four or five plates, three
forks, right?
Just, I had a lot of cheese in my fridge.
I just, I wanted to say that.
I quote unquote, you can't see me doing the air pods.
I cleaned my apartment, right?
I've been married for closer 13 years now.
I have thought back to my apartment.
That thing was gross, right?
That thing was disgusting.
Can you imagine if I had been like, well, life is pretty good now, you know, I've got
a job, I've got an apartment, I've got, but I would have missed out on relationship with
my wife, which is not easy, but incredible, right?
Like being married is not easy guys.
Like it is, it is a, you should be working at your marriage.
Like on some level it's easy, but on a real level it's not because you're taking two people
who are not the same and you're building a life together.
I would have missed out on having my kids.
I can't even imagine now stepping from where I am back to where I was.
I think a lot of that with like the fear of the unknown, people are like, well, it's pretty
good.
And I think what the church has done incorrectly in my opinion is we've tried to make people
feel so bad about where they are, right?
That we're like, where you are sucks, you know, total depravity.
You're a liar.
You're a murderer.
You're a thief.
And the invitation of God is like, there's something better here.
There is life actually worth having.
There is constant companionship.
You're like, as much as you can get close to God, your life is going to get better.
Right?
Because we've been, I've been a follower of Christ for like all my life, but really passionately
since my sophomore year in high school.
Every time I get closer to God, I hit a new level of life that I didn't know was possible.
Right?
The problem is we're trying to scare people into following God and it's invitational.
There's an invitation with God and he's not going to force you to come to this table because
he's a good father.
So I've worked in youth ministry a long time and I've heard a lot of youth ministry analogies.
So I'm going to give you one.
So as a youth pastor describing like what it's like to live without Jesus.
And he's like, in his words, he was like, it's like living in a house without a toilet.
He's like, you still got to poop somewhere.
Right?
Imagine that you are just pooping in your living room and you're okay with it.
And like, even like my junior high boys at the retreat were like, that's disgusting.
You would never do that.
For those of you who are listening, who are in youth ministry, you're like, it's impressive
that this guy found an analogy that disgusts junior high boys.
That's pretty amazing.
Yeah.
They were like, that's disgusting.
And he's like, and you know what Jesus is doing?
He's knocking at the door being like, Hey, I'll clean that up for you.
Yeah.
Right?
He's not, he's not sitting there judging you.
He's not coming in and being like, look how disgusting this is.
Look how deprived you are.
He's saying, Hey, I see that.
Let me take care of that for you.
The analogy ended with him saying, Hey, you can live with this, with this in your life
or he can say Jesus come in and take this from me.
And I think there's a, there's a, the ability to see generationally as well.
So with your analogy, you're pooping in the living room and like, so that might be okay
for a week.
But what about when you're a month in or when you're seven months in three years, a decade.
And so we're all in our mid thirties.
You less of your mid.
But yeah, but there are speeds.
I get to speak at your guys's funeral.
There are people.
Uh, well, if I, I want my ashes taken home and everybody's Tupperware.
Yeah.
Oh no.
I'm going to walk up and be like, Oh look, they're moving.
But I want all the Tupperware returned.
So good.
Sounds good.
Okay.
So coming back to this idea, right?
So we're in our mid thirties.
Like we went to high school with people or your college with people that said, Oh, my
life is good a certain way.
And they never changed.
Right.
Here we are 10 years later, 12 years later, 20 years later.
And I see the effects of 10 to 20 years of that life on people.
Yeah.
And in a real way they do too, because a lot of them are in therapy.
They've gone to jail and now they're coming back out.
And guys, I'm not, it's not just that.
Like it's little things in your life too.
Like generational trauma.
Maybe you had between you and your parents in high school that you never dealt with.
Yeah.
Now you don't even talk to them and now you don't even want to be a parent because it
was so bad for you.
Yeah.
Right.
And so God gives invitation and, and in the manna, the quail, like everything that's going
to come after this, there's an invitation given to Israel.
Yeah.
Are you going to trust me or not?
Sometimes they do.
Yeah.
Spoiler alert.
A lot of times they don't.
And I just think it's great that God has patience with them in the middle of that because that
is something that we can hold onto.
Yeah.
God is going to have infinite patience with people who struggle to trust him.
Yeah.
He's going to have no patience with people who don't desire to trust him at all.
And let alone people who say they follow him, but don't trust him.
Right.
That can be a hard pill to swallow to like self-examine yourself and be like, you know,
I say I follow Jesus, but do I really, do I really trust him and what I'm doing?
Do I trust him to lead in my life?
Right.
And, and one of the themes that I see throughout these chapters is Israel doing that, right?
Like they have, they're, they're following God.
Right.
And they go through these cycles of like, God, why'd you leave me here?
And God's patient with them.
He shows them who he is.
And then like, okay, this is awesome.
They start following again and they're like, oh God, why'd you leave me here?
Because going, going into chapter 17, you run into the same issue with water again,
where they're like, where's the water?
Right.
Where's thirsty again?
And then they're in defense.
They're in a desert.
Right.
Where's the water?
Where's thirsty again?
And God's like, okay, let's split this rock open.
Right.
And you have water.
Yeah.
And so you, you have this kind of theme that happens throughout these few chapters of yes,
it's good.
Oh man, I'm deprived.
I need this God providing and being patient.
Yes, it's good.
And then continues on.
There's like just a ton of up and down.
I think that learning how to worship in the desert solves a lot of our problems.
Yeah.
We like to worship God on mountain tops.
Yeah.
But we also need to know how to worship God in valleys.
I think there's two sides to this.
Yeah.
So when you're equating this through our spiritual lives, I, I think people can have their own
perception on what the green pasture looks like.
Oh, sure.
You mean Psalm 23?
Yeah.
So like, I think people can have their own perception on that of being like, well, if
everything was going good, this is what my life would look like.
Right.
Let's push back on that and let's just say, okay, maybe God's version of good is different
than your version of good.
And maybe you need to get to a spot where you're okay with that.
Maybe you're supposed to walk in blessing and prosperity and it has nothing to do with
money.
Yeah.
And it has nothing to do with comfort.
Maybe your life is supposed to be blessed so that all nations can be blessed.
Right.
I think when you're talking about worshiping in a desert, we need to understand good times
and desert times from God's perspective of what those look like.
And not just from our own perspective.
Yeah.
Because the Lord's going to provide what you need and not necessarily what you want, but
he's going to provide what you need.
And so worshiping God in the desert, that's a skill that is very difficult.
Yeah.
It's a skill that we need to foster though.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
To say, I have nothing, but yet God, I'm going to give you everything I have.
Right.
Because those desert times are when we feel like we got nothing, nothing to offer, nothing
to give.
We feel like life is pointless.
Those are the times when people tend to feel depressed, anxious, suicidal.
Those are the times when that happens.
And to be like, God, I have nothing, but I'm going to praise you anyways.
And then God's being like, okay, let me show you what I can do with that.
Yeah.
It's good.
So the other thing that I think about that we can pull from Torah in this is that this
is prior to the giving of the law.
Yeah.
Right.
They have not been given the words from God yet.
So he's going to have a lot of patience with them here because he hasn't told them what
he expects of them yet.
Right.
They've just been pulled out and like every piece of context they have comes from Egypt.
You know?
So if you don't have food, who do you complain to?
Your leader.
If you don't have water, who do you complain to?
Your leader.
So everything is going to be contextualized from an Egyptian perspective at this point.
Like their understanding of priests, their understanding of sacrifice, their understanding
of worship, it's all going to be colored by their understanding in Egypt.
And so we need to have patience with the Israelites as they're walking through here.
Now, modern context of that, how many times are we trying to fire hose brand new believers
with the gospel before they even know how to follow God?
Right?
You know what I mean?
The second they say yes, we're like, okay, you got to stop swearing.
You got to stop, you know, like you just give the list, right?
Okay.
Give God a chance to actually work with them.
Right?
Correct me if I'm wrong, Nick, but I don't think we fix people.
No, we definitely do not fix people.
Yeah.
Like that's a work of the Holy Spirit.
Absolutely.
And I think we partner with him for sure.
Like we work with people, but it's actually the Holy Spirit who changes people and learning
how to be patient in the desert with people when they're learning how to hear the voice
of God, bearing with them.
Right?
Right.
Two different ways you can look at it.
So like relationships take time.
Yep.
That's one.
But from an Americanized standpoint, we don't view things in the context of relationships.
We view things in the context of accomplishments and work.
So like if you were to like give an analogy that would paint a good picture of someone
coming to know Jesus and then like leaning into that and growing in their faith, pretend
like you switched careers.
Uh huh.
Right?
Are you going to know everything about your new career right away?
And are you going to do that perfectly?
Like I mean, Nick would, but Nick would, because Nick's like Superman, but you're just not
going to know everything right away.
Yeah.
Right?
So like when the church started working construction years and years ago, right?
It started off with like, Hey, this is how you use a nail gun and this is how you don't
shoot a nail through your hand.
Good information to know.
Yeah.
Right?
It didn't start with like, here's the intricate details of framing, finished carpentry, plumbing,
electrical, all that.
It was, it started off with like, here's how you don't hurt yourself.
Right.
And I think, I think we as a church could take a note from that when we're dealing with
new believers, dealing with people who've just come to know Jesus.
It's like, okay, let's step by step, just walk with them in relationship and show them
what is good and how to draw closer to Jesus in a way that is helpful for them.
I think sometimes in church and in church leadership, it's like, I guess I'll use the
word new converts.
Those who just gain relationship with, with Jesus, it's kind of terrifying because it's
should be messy and it is messy.
And when you're in a church leadership position and this person is, you know, starting to
get into the congregation and they say things and they cause a little bit of trouble.
If you don't have a board and a system and a leadership team, who's just like, we're
cool with all of that, which, you know, our church is pretty cool with all that, like
been around a while.
Man, it can cause more issues and it can cause issues in the leadership team because it's
like new Christians are messy.
Like there is stuff they say and do or think they're doing proper or they heard a YouTube
video and they don't know, you know, they don't have, I'll use the word discernment
of what they're saying or hearing.
They're just passionate.
It gets a little messy and it can get terrifying, especially if there's not a maturity of the
team to handle that and patience of our brothers and sisters, the mature Christians just being
like, Hey, that's, you know,
my dad's been a ministry leader for a long time and one of the things that he's dealt
with is he's always had a passion and a heart for like, okay, how do we reach the hard to
get to people?
And so he one time had a mom come up to him and was like, Hey, my kid was in a youth program
that your organization was leading and they heard the F word and his response was like,
that's a great place for them to learn.
Great problem.
Yeah.
That's a great place for them to learn that word.
And the mom was like, what do you mean that was a great place?
He's he's like, well, it's going to be dealt with in a good way here.
That F word was faith, right?
Yes.
It was, it was Buffalo according to my son.
This is a great place for them to learn that type of language because it's going to be
dealt with in a healthy way versus he was like, your kid could be learning that language
in a public setting where it's not going to be dealt with in a healthy way.
For us as ministry leaders to be like, okay, how do we engage that in a good way?
So we're not ostracizing people, but also at the other end of the spectrum that people
who have been believers a long time are seeing that like, Oh, okay.
They're not in the same place we are.
They haven't been saying yes to Jesus for 20 years.
They've been saying yes to Jesus for 20 minutes on the flip side of that.
There are people who say that they said yes to Jesus for 20 years and I promise you it's
been about 20 minutes.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, I agree.
Yeah.
There is a problem of adult babies in the church, right?
I did not laugh into my mic.
Yeah, there is.
I mean, let's be real honest.
We know who they are and we love them.
We want to see God do great things.
They struggle with mashed potatoes.
Right.
And when I'm talking about spiritual food, they struggle with mashed potatoes and they're
like, Oh, this is deep.
I was like, it's mashed potatoes, right?
And it's like instant mashed potatoes.
So they're not even lumpy, right?
That's what they're struggling with.
They're in infancy.
They're still running around in diapers.
They still don't know how to hear the voice of God.
This is a problem.
Yeah.
Right.
And so both of those things are messy.
Yeah.
So what are our big takeaways from this section is that sometimes God is going to come in
and he's going to deliver you.
Yeah.
And sometimes he's going to require you to take a step to Nick's point.
You have to be willing to be fearless and embracing the unknown that God's bringing
you into because otherwise you're going to stay in your old bachelor pad and never move
into the family you're supposed to be in.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think one of the other takeaways is the Lord's provision isn't going to come all
at once.
Yeah.
Like the provision happened throughout the journey.
So if you're thinking the Lord's going to provide everything you need all at once and
you're going to be set, that's not how it works.
The provision happened over time throughout the journey.
And it's a good thing it did happen because if the Lord gave Israel all the food and all
the water that they needed to make this journey, chances are they wouldn't have made it.
Chances are they would have run out.
Or they never would have gone anywhere.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, we want to thank Nick for being with us this week.
I had a few words.
Yeah, that's good.
We've already established in this podcast that Ben talks too much.
We just want to thank you for being here.
We really appreciate you.
We'll probably have you on in a future episode, chat about some things.
But if you have comments, questions, please send us an email, loveandcontext at gmail.com.
You can also follow us on Instagram at loveandcontext.
If you find somebody who you think might benefit from this type of conversation, please feel
free to share.
If you found us somewhere other than Apple and Spotify, I'm confused, but that's where
we are.
Yeah.
And we would love to hear from you.
Yes.
Like we say these things like, hey, contact us.
And I know every podcast says that at the end of it, but we would genuinely love to
hear from you, whether you like what we said or whether you didn't like what we said.
We would still love to hear from you.
Even if you're Spencer's sister.
Yeah.
What about Tiffany?
Yeah.
What about Tiffany?
I was going to say Josephine today.
That's perfect.
Tiffany or Josephine.
He's got multiple sisters.
Daniel was closer.
Was he?
He was a little nicer.
Oh, closer.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thanks for listening until next time.
Thank you so much for listening today.
We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we hope that you got something out of it.
If you have any questions, please contact us at loveandcontext at gmail.com.
You can also follow us on Instagram and message us through there.
Instagram is love and context.
Again, loveandcontext at gmail.com or Instagram are the two ways to get a hold of us if you
would like.
Thank you once again.
We really appreciate you being here.
God bless.
So Nick, this is a podcast.
You can't shake your head.
You actually have to say something.
There you go.
Oh man.
So.
Nick is adamant like cheese is not a flavor.
Cheese is just it's whatever.
I could take it or leave it.