1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,600 Welcome to the Love and Context podcast, unscripted conversation with Ben and Spence. 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:10,400 We're so glad that you could join us today, whether that's from your car, office, home, 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,080 church, or wherever you're at. 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,200 We did have a few sound quality issues with our first few episodes. 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:18,340 Those have been resolved. 6 00:00:18,340 --> 00:00:22,160 So if you do notice that the sound is funny in the first couple episodes, we do apologize 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:23,200 for that. 8 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:28,820 If you want to contact us, you can email us at loveandcontext.gmail.com. 9 00:00:28,820 --> 00:00:35,760 Also follow us on Instagram at loveandcontext. 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,460 Welcome to the Love and Context podcast with Ben and Spencer. 11 00:00:39,460 --> 00:00:41,320 This is an unscripted conversation. 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,140 We're going to try to do the intro different every time, just to mess with you literally 13 00:00:45,140 --> 00:00:46,140 every time. 14 00:00:46,140 --> 00:00:47,680 Just no, no other reason. 15 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,040 Like next week is probably going to sound very different, but don't worry about it. 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:52,040 It'll be okay. 17 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,760 One, actually this week it sounds very different because we have good equipment now. 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:02,040 I know, we actually have decent equipment at this point and all this stuff. 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,800 Your sister's probably going to listen to this and be like, I like the way their voices 20 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:05,800 sounded before. 21 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,480 Now it's terrible. 22 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,880 She will, but that'll be okay. 23 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,160 We're leaving that in by the way, and she's going to listen to it and be like, no, you 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:14,160 called me out. 25 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:15,800 Oh, it's the first of many times. 26 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:16,800 Oh yeah. 27 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:17,800 Yeah. 28 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:19,680 I've gotten plenty of notices about what she thinks about my voice. 29 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,080 Yeah, yeah, me too. 30 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:22,920 So I'll... Yeah. 31 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,480 Actually it's not so much my voice that she cares about, it's my content. 32 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,240 She likes your content. 33 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:28,240 I know she does. 34 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:29,240 I know she does. 35 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:30,240 I'm just being funny. 36 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:31,240 I don't even actually... What's your sister's name? 37 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:32,240 I'm not going to say it on the podcast. 38 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:33,240 Oh yeah. 39 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,240 I'm going to call her Guinevere. 40 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:35,240 Okay, Guinevere. 41 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:36,960 That feels appropriate. 42 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:37,960 That's so perfect. 43 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:38,960 Yeah. 44 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:39,960 I have no idea. 45 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:40,960 No idea. 46 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:43,280 So anyways, here we are. 47 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,040 And this is like the longest intro. 48 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,880 I think we're like a minute and a half in and we haven't even gotten to... 49 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:48,880 Substantially. 50 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:49,880 Yeah. 51 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:50,880 Okay. 52 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:51,880 All right. 53 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:59,320 So we're in Genesis chapter 11 and it is just 10 verses in there. 54 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:07,520 If you have not read The Tower of Babel, once again, newfangled technology, push pause, 55 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,360 go read it and then come back here and it's going to be like you never left. 56 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,800 If you are driving in your car, you can pause and listen to it later or you can listen now 57 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,040 and then go back and read the story. 58 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,760 But make sure that you're familiar with these stories when you're writing to us because 59 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,440 we have been reading these and ruminating on them and reading some different material. 60 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,760 So our assumption is you're going to do the same. 61 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:30,760 Yeah. 62 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,880 This story is very interesting on a number of fronts. 63 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,320 One, it's a really short story, right? 64 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,440 It's not like the flood narrative which we covered last week. 65 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:40,440 Yeah. 66 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:41,440 The flood narrative is really tall. 67 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:42,440 Yeah. 68 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:43,440 Short. 69 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:44,440 Yeah. 70 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:45,440 Thanks for that. 71 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:46,440 You're welcome. 72 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:53,200 It's not like the flood narrative, it's not like the story of Abraham, which we're going 73 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:54,920 to get into in a few weeks. 74 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:58,240 It's just nine verses is what it is. 75 00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,240 Yeah. 76 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:00,240 Yeah. 77 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,080 Then there's just so much wild debate about it. 78 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:08,080 So one of the first things we noticed in this story is it's not what a lot of people have 79 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:09,080 told us it is. 80 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,080 Okay. 81 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,560 Because very frequently, if you talk about Tower of Babel, the way people are going to 82 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,680 tell a story is they're like, oh yeah, humanity came together, they're trying to build a tower, 83 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,800 and God didn't like it, so he confused their language so they couldn't do it anymore. 84 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:28,400 And if you think that, well, you're wrong. 85 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,360 And I'm sorry, I'm not trying to say... Like on a broad level, you're correct, but on a 86 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,760 very specific level, on a more real level, you're wrong. 87 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,200 And we need to talk about that. 88 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,840 So first of all, one of the things I saw here is it says the whole world had one language 89 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,400 and a common speech. 90 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:48,440 So not only did they speak the same language, they talked about things the same way. 91 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:49,440 Right? 92 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,520 Vernacular was the same. 93 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:54,920 And the people were moving eastward. 94 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,800 Now what's the problem with moving east? 95 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,520 We've talked about this. 96 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,080 Where is Eden? 97 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:03,080 Where is Eden? 98 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:04,080 Yeah. 99 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,080 According to the text, like on a broad level. 100 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,080 We don't really know. 101 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:07,080 Well, it's west. 102 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:08,080 Yeah. 103 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,280 Because they keep moving east, so it has to be west. 104 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:11,280 Yeah. 105 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:12,280 Yeah. 106 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,960 I mean, we don't really know where it is, but if God's intention is to come back to 107 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,760 the garden, is to actually restore relationship, people are always moving the wrong way. 108 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,960 Cain goes to the east, they're going to the east. 109 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,960 At some point, you got to go back west. 110 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:27,960 Yeah. 111 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:28,960 Right? 112 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,680 And it's interesting to me is that in this story, there is this double usage of Hebrew 113 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,020 where they ask two questions. 114 00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:37,020 And we've talked about this, but I don't... 115 00:04:37,020 --> 00:04:39,020 Yeah, I don't think we've talked about it on the podcast. 116 00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:41,240 No, we haven't talked about it on the podcast. 117 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,760 Can you kind of give them a rundown of what that is? 118 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:44,760 Yeah. 119 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,240 So the double usage of Hebrew. 120 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,160 So a lot of times in Hebrew text, or when it's translated to English, you'll hear it 121 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,240 said, read like, hey, so and so said, and it'll be a sentence or two. 122 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,080 And then they said, it'll be a sentence or two. 123 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,720 Essentially what's happening there is there's actually a passage of time between those two 124 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:05,720 sentences. 125 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:06,720 Right. 126 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:07,720 We don't know how much time. 127 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:08,720 Yeah. 128 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,600 We don't know how much time, but those are two different sentences that are actually 129 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,680 said at two different times. 130 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:13,800 Yeah. 131 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:20,360 And we're dealing with pre-paper societies, right? 132 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,460 Like where paper is not an available commodity. 133 00:05:22,460 --> 00:05:25,840 So actually writing these things down is very difficult, so they're going to use all their 134 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:26,840 space. 135 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:27,840 Yeah. 136 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,960 And so there's literary rules on how to make sure that people know what time has gone by 137 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,840 without actually having to write it. 138 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:34,840 Yeah. 139 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:35,840 Right? 140 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:36,840 Now, why is that important? 141 00:05:36,840 --> 00:05:39,220 Because right here in verse three and verse four, we actually see it happening almost 142 00:05:39,220 --> 00:05:40,220 right away. 143 00:05:40,220 --> 00:05:41,220 All right. 144 00:05:41,220 --> 00:05:46,520 So they said to each other, come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly because thoroughly 145 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,440 baked bricks is what you want. 146 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:49,440 Yeah. 147 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:50,440 Yeah. 148 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,200 They used brick instead of stone and tar for mortar. 149 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,800 Then they said, okay, now I want to pause there because I've had a conversation with 150 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:03,920 people who talk about this particular passage, then they use it to attack the development 151 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,200 of technology or the advancement of humanity. 152 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:08,200 Stop doing that. 153 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,200 Yeah. 154 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:10,200 That's not what the story is talking about. 155 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:11,200 Like, don't believe me. 156 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,040 Like, the brick is the new iPhone, right? 157 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,960 At this point. 158 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,840 And they say, hey, we're going to take bricks and we're going to bake them thoroughly and 159 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:24,580 we're going to use bricks instead of stone and tar and mortar. 160 00:06:24,580 --> 00:06:28,000 And it's a new development in technology. 161 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,520 And then they say again, which means there's a passage of time. 162 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,600 So what does God say about that? 163 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,040 He says absolutely nothing. 164 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:35,040 Yeah. 165 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:36,040 It's not a problem. 166 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,840 Like having technology is not a problem. 167 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:44,000 What you do with the technology might be a problem because look in verse four, they said, 168 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:49,200 come let us build ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens so that 169 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,280 we may make a name for ourselves. 170 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,640 Otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth. 171 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:55,880 Okay. 172 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,200 Here's a problem. 173 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,640 You're not supposed to build cities. 174 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:07,440 You're supposed to be being fruitful and multiplying, subduing the earth and filling it. 175 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:08,440 Yep. 176 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,560 You're supposed to be scattered everywhere. 177 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,480 That's your long-term goal is to actually be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and 178 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:19,720 fill it so that all of the world is under God's rule and reign. 179 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,960 And they're like, nah, no, not about that. 180 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,760 Now that we got these newfangled bricks, how are we going to build a tower that reaches 181 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:27,760 to heaven? 182 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,560 We'll make a name for ourselves rather than what God wants to do for us. 183 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,520 And technology isn't the issue. 184 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,240 You relate that to modern day society. 185 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:37,240 We got phones. 186 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:38,240 We have computers. 187 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,720 We can get information at the tap of a button. 188 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,280 It's so quick, so easy to get information. 189 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,440 The issue is what do we do with that information? 190 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:48,440 Yeah. 191 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:49,440 Right. 192 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:55,040 And so when it comes to spreading the gospel, the good news of Christ or talking about scripture 193 00:07:55,040 --> 00:08:01,880 and its content and its contextual purpose, how we use that is important. 194 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,120 How often do people in the pursuit of Christ use technology? 195 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,680 The very same thing podcasts that we're using right now to actually just tear down other 196 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:20,440 people than to actually promote Christian living and Christ-like righteousness, right? 197 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,360 That the whole goal is supposed to be about sharing the gospel and enlarging the kingdom. 198 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:31,240 And all we're doing is defining who's in and who's out, which, I mean, correct me if I'm 199 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,360 wrong, isn't our job. 200 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:34,840 No, it's not. 201 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,880 So technology is not an evil. 202 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,880 What you do with it can be good and evil. 203 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,960 And by the way, can we just say that's also true for emotions? 204 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:46,960 Yeah. 205 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:47,960 Right? 206 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:48,960 Yeah. 207 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,080 I always think about people that are like, oh, well, anger is a sin. 208 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,580 I was like, no, no, what you do with anger is a sin. 209 00:08:54,580 --> 00:08:58,320 Because there's a statement in the Bible, in this thing that we read that says, in your 210 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,040 anger do not sin. 211 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,040 Okay. 212 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,920 Well, you can't say that unless it's possible to be angry and not sin. 213 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:05,000 Right? 214 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,760 So we're getting into the idea of sinful nature a little bit. 215 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:09,760 Right? 216 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:10,760 Yeah. 217 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,000 And there's also lots of opinions on that. 218 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,720 So Ben and I are very blunt, direct personalities. 219 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:18,720 It's true. 220 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,360 Like, we are like, give us the facts, tell us what we need to know. 221 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,880 And oftentimes, I will tell people to do something and they'll look at me and be like, oh, what 222 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:28,880 just happened? 223 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,120 And I was like, I just asked you to do something. 224 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,280 Like, in my mind, it's no big deal. 225 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:39,480 But what I do with that bluntness can actually really tear people down if I'm not careful. 226 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:40,480 That's true. 227 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,560 And I've heard a lot of people in my life because of that. 228 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:47,480 And even though I'm at no ill harm whatsoever. 229 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,560 Right? 230 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:58,360 So I guess my hard part about the technology thing when we're coming back to Babel is, 231 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,240 are you using this to build people up? 232 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:06,360 Are we using technology for the purposes of connection, growing the kingdom and all those 233 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,720 things because otherwise it starts to become a hindrance. 234 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,800 It actually starts to, it's either leading us to the garden or away. 235 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:21,040 And so let's pick on something that's really common in the post-COVID era and specifically 236 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,080 in the COVID era. 237 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,080 Live streaming church. 238 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:27,080 Right? 239 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:34,480 Like, I'm about to hit some of you right in the fields and I apologize for that because 240 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,080 this is meant for encouragement, but more like just like, what are we doing long term? 241 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:39,080 Yeah. 242 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:40,080 You know? 243 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:45,600 So on one side, when we were dealing with the COVID restrictions, man, it was a godsend. 244 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:46,720 Oh yeah. 245 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:47,720 Right? 246 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,520 Because we couldn't meet. 247 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:50,840 Right? 248 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,720 And you know, obviously there's going to be debate about like, should a church stay open? 249 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:54,880 We're not talking about that today. 250 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,360 We talked about that in episode one, you are entitled to your own opinion. 251 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,360 You're not entitled to your own opinion on grace. 252 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,560 You have grace with people, especially when you disagree. 253 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:11,560 So and then there's other sides of it too, is like, if our kids are sick in the morning 254 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:16,320 and like, we're not going to take them to church to go convolvulate the other kids. 255 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:17,320 Right? 256 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,280 And we still want to engage and hear what's going on. 257 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,760 We can stay at home and actually like catch up and stay with our church and worship along 258 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,720 and hear the word from our house. 259 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:27,720 Right? 260 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,960 But what's the other side of that? 261 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,960 The other side of it is a lot of people have used that to step out of fellowship. 262 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:34,960 Yeah. 263 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:35,960 Right? 264 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,440 Like, and this is, this is kind of one of those things where I've heard people push 265 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,200 back on this passage and be like, well, does it really mean what it says it means? 266 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,320 And we can have that conversation, but like in this passage, you have a group of people 267 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,440 who are together, who are unified. 268 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,520 How often do we pray for that? 269 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:56,520 Right. 270 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:58,520 Like, can we be honest? 271 00:11:58,520 --> 00:11:59,800 Can we ask this question? 272 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:00,800 That's part of the thing. 273 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:01,800 That's part of what we're supposed to do. 274 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,020 But how often do we pray for that? 275 00:12:03,020 --> 00:12:06,040 How often do we pray for it or how should we actually pray into that? 276 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,040 Yeah, there's a difference. 277 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:09,040 Yeah. 278 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:14,080 And so, but with this, with this idea is we've had people with this idea of like live stream 279 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,640 church, we've had people step out of fellowship. 280 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,720 We've been like, oh, well, I quote unquote went to church. 281 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,920 And then what they do is before too long, they realize that they actually have no Christian 282 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,600 fellowship in their lives. 283 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:27,600 Right. 284 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:33,480 And now I'm not saying that everybody who stepped out and have stepped just into live 285 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,040 streaming is forsaking every ounce of Christian fellowship in our lives. 286 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,520 That's not what I'm saying. 287 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,760 But I am saying that it can lead to that if we're not careful. 288 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:43,760 Right. 289 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,400 Well, and I think you would agree with this, like church is a communal experience. 290 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,400 Yeah. 291 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:53,200 I mean, it's a lot of people, their churches do have different focuses, but on a general 292 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:59,120 level, Sunday morning is for the believers to come together and worship God and to be 293 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,280 empowered to go on scattered throughout the week. 294 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,280 Yes. 295 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,280 Right. 296 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,520 For the pastors to equip the saints. 297 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:06,520 Yes. 298 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:07,520 For ministry. 299 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:08,520 Yes. 300 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,200 And, you know, the interesting thing is it's not just church that we do that with. 301 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:17,680 I mean, a lot of our discipleship, a lot of our disciplines that we do as Christians, 302 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:22,080 we've moved from a corporate level to an individual level. 303 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:28,720 For example, the study of Torah or the ketuvim, which have been the entire Old Testament, 304 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,640 used to be done in a group of people. 305 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:32,640 Right. 306 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,440 Like, it was a regular part of the synagogue services. 307 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,960 It was a regular part of just Torah study in general. 308 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:44,320 It was regular discussion in the families with your bros, with your gals, you know. 309 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,920 And this was a part like you didn't do it by yourself because how arrogant would you 310 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,920 have to be to read the word of God by yourself and interpret it? 311 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:53,480 Uh huh. 312 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,240 That's not really how we do it today. 313 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,480 No, it's not. 314 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:57,480 Right. 315 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,440 And there, I mean, I don't want to also, I don't want to poo poo on everything we do 316 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:01,440 today. 317 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:02,440 Right. 318 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,680 Because I think there's like incredible benefit to being able to get into the nitty gritties 319 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:08,540 of the Greek and the Hebrew stuff that you couldn't necessarily do with all groups of 320 00:14:08,540 --> 00:14:12,320 people because they would be like, they'd be like my wife when I started talking about 321 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,800 her, like her eyes glaze over, she's like, oh, when's he going to stop talking? 322 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,880 You know, it's not that she doesn't find it interesting. 323 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,880 She doesn't find the minutia interesting. 324 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:21,880 Right. 325 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,640 Well, I remember one time we were having a conversation and your wife was there and she's 326 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,240 like, this doesn't interest me. 327 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,360 It just walks away. 328 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:32,880 It was so great. 329 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,400 Yeah, no, it's and honestly, she's got to do it because like I can get stuck on like 330 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,400 small points. 331 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:40,400 Yeah. 332 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,840 It's actually really interesting, sometimes we'll be talking about something in the in 333 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,160 the word and I'll talk about like the small little thing and she's like, well, I don't 334 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:47,160 understand why it's important. 335 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,440 And I'm like, I was like, oh, it's so important because it has a little effect down here. 336 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,680 She's like, okay. 337 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,720 Right. 338 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,760 And man, you know, the thing about my wife is she does not like diving into the minutia 339 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:02,760 like I do. 340 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:03,760 Yeah. 341 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:10,240 But she will also drop some profound knowledge and not even like, like just out of nowhere. 342 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,560 I remember I was doing this sermon prep once and I was going through and I was studying 343 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,520 and studying and studying and I walked her through everything I was saying. 344 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,000 She's like, oh, so it's basically this. 345 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,440 And I was like, yeah, that's better. 346 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:22,960 That's way better. 347 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,520 And and I was like, it was so much better because that's my wife has just like incredible 348 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:28,840 like emotive knowledge. 349 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:29,840 Yeah. 350 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:30,840 Right. 351 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:31,840 Intelligence. 352 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:32,840 Right. 353 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,440 So when you do these things by yourself, like you and I have talked about this, right? 354 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,760 When we when we're prepping, when we're talking about gospel presentation or preaching on Sunday 355 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,080 morning or just doing life. 356 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,720 I mean, when we try to do it by yourself, we miss out. 357 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,920 Oh, so much, so much. 358 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,920 We're not called to do this by ourselves. 359 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,640 Now I want to be really clear. 360 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,400 I'm a firm believer that church happens beyond Sundays. 361 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:58,400 Right. 362 00:15:58,400 --> 00:15:59,400 Right. 363 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:04,680 In America, specifically, we have moved to this idea where we just do church on Sundays. 364 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,200 It's like, no, that's not how the church is supposed to work. 365 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,920 We're supposed to be in the community 24 seven. 366 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Right. 367 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:11,920 Right. 368 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,680 We're supposed to be there day in and day out. 369 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:20,300 We're supposed to be there for fellow believers day in day out doing life together and ministering 370 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:24,120 to our community and drawing our community closer to Christ. 371 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,360 That's the purpose of church. 372 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,360 And so I don't want to I want to be very clear on that. 373 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,640 But when we step out and say, well, I don't need the church to do this. 374 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:35,680 Guess what? 375 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,560 You just stepped out of all accountability. 376 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,000 You just stepped out of all fellowship. 377 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,640 You just stepped out of doing this as a team. 378 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,840 You just stepped out of doing this as a family. 379 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,120 And you just said, I'm better than you. 380 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,200 I don't need you. 381 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,960 You know, the hard thing about that is almost every time when somebody says that the opposite 382 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:58,960 is true. 383 00:16:58,960 --> 00:16:59,960 Yeah. 384 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:00,960 Right. 385 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,280 So in this idea with Babel, I was like, technology is not a bad thing. 386 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,840 Like we talk about live streaming, right? 387 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,600 When you use it as a way to disconnect from the body. 388 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:11,600 Yeah. 389 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:17,800 When you use that as a way to put six feet metaphorically between you and your neighbor. 390 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,720 Like you cross a threshold where it's no longer about technology and what's about what technology 391 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,440 is actually doing to you. 392 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:25,440 Yeah. 393 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:26,440 Yeah. 394 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,920 Technology can be a great way to express like feelings like you use it go through. 395 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,840 But man, when it starts affecting you, too, there's an issue. 396 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:40,960 So basically, they come together and they come up with new technology and God's fine 397 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:41,960 with it. 398 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,160 But then they say, we're going to sit in one spot. 399 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,600 We're not going to scatter like we're supposed to. 400 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:46,600 We're going to build our own name. 401 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:53,480 We're going to build a tower and basically make God obsolete, which is hilarious because 402 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,520 everything is held together by him. 403 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,800 And God says, man, he comes down, he sees the city and the tower they're building. 404 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,480 He says, if as one people speak in the same language, they began to do this, then nothing 405 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,360 they plan to do would be impossible for them. 406 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:10,240 Now, I think when we read that, we have the tendency to be like, oh, God realizes that 407 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,760 they could actually rival him. 408 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:19,920 This is once again, this connects us to this idea back in Cain and Abel, right? 409 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:20,920 Yeah. 410 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,960 Where you have a monster waiting outside of your door and you can conquer it. 411 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,620 The problem is you're not going to. 412 00:18:27,620 --> 00:18:32,080 And if I don't stop this, you're going to be broken and we're not going to be able to 413 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:33,080 fix you. 414 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,760 Like we've talked about that with our children is like, they're like, oh, you don't love 415 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,120 me because you won't let me eat seven donuts. 416 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:44,200 Listen, if you eat seven donuts, then we're going to have two buckets of vomit. 417 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,200 Right. 418 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,760 And I think the math works on that now. 419 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,400 For four year olds, absolutely. 420 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:51,400 Yeah. 421 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,720 As like, I absolutely love you. 422 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,320 And that's why I won't let you have seven donuts. 423 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,360 Here's the interesting thing too. 424 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:04,760 So in verse six of this passage, Genesis 11 verse six, this is a new living translation. 425 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:09,280 It says, look, he said being the Lord, the people are united. 426 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,040 They all speak the same language after this. 427 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:18,040 Nothing they set out to do will be impossible for them. 428 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:23,680 And we just talked about this a little bit, but let's just hit on just one more. 429 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,560 We do this in church all the time. 430 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,280 We're praying for this. 431 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,640 We want to be, we're praying for unification. 432 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,060 We're praying that we're speaking the same language. 433 00:19:32,060 --> 00:19:35,520 We're praying that there's nothing that's impossible for us. 434 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:42,480 The problem is, is when we take that and sit our butts still in a room by ourselves and 435 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:48,800 don't actually take what we have out into our community, that's where God steps in. 436 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:49,800 Right. 437 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:50,800 And it's like, no, no, no, no. 438 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,680 Well, and let's, let's even take it a step from there. 439 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,960 So you and I know as well as I do. 440 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,400 So God refuses their language. 441 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:58,400 Okay. 442 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,040 You and I know as well as many people who have, if you encountered somebody who is not 443 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,360 a native English speaker, okay. 444 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:09,240 We have a couple in our church from South Korea, right? 445 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:15,780 And when we talk to them, it requires a lot of thinking to make sure we're communicating 446 00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:17,320 on the same level. 447 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:23,200 I told them one time that it's raining cats and dogs out and they looked at me and they're 448 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,120 like, that makes no sense. 449 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:26,120 Right. 450 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:27,320 And I was like, you're right. 451 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:28,320 That does make no sense. 452 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,200 But most of the idioms we use make no sense to them. 453 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,880 Now here is the thing though, I think is very true is because we speak a different language 454 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,400 on a very fundamental level, like they've learned English and they're much better at 455 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:44,760 English than, well, most Americans, they just don't understand idioms. 456 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:54,360 And so when we cross those divides and when I have to think about what I'm saying in order 457 00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:03,480 to communicate to them my heart, it requires a different set of emotive, intellectual and 458 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,160 spiritual qualities. 459 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,600 And in a lot of ways, once I feel like we understand each other in many ways, as opposed 460 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:16,080 to somebody who would just speak English normally, I feel like we understand each other better. 461 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,720 We're more unified because we have to overcome the obstacle. 462 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,360 And I wonder when I read this story, when God confuses their language and then forces 463 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:31,760 them to actually overcome that obstacle to understand each other, is it not overcoming 464 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:40,080 something between you like having to listen and respond and really like decipher? 465 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:45,820 Doesn't that not lead to more unified people? 466 00:21:45,820 --> 00:21:49,480 Because it makes you pause and consider what am I actually saying? 467 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:58,840 And let's just, let's dispel a couple things in this story. 468 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,920 We do not know how God confused their language. 469 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:02,920 Right. 470 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:03,920 Okay. 471 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,800 We do not know how he scattered them. 472 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,160 Like verse eight, it talks about how he scattered them all over the world and they stopped building 473 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,320 a city. 474 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:11,760 I think it's probably like a salt shaker. 475 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:12,760 Yeah. 476 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,640 We don't know like, we don't know how that happened. 477 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:16,640 Okay. 478 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,200 So again, this is a story, it's not about how did these things take place? 479 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,200 Right. 480 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,000 It's not a scientific account or any of that. 481 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,960 It's a story of saying, okay, what question we need to ask is what is the Lord doing in 482 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,160 the writing of this story? 483 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:36,160 Also thing to dispel, where does it say that God's mad at them? 484 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,160 It doesn't. 485 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,400 It doesn't. 486 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,180 Like God doesn't reprimand them. 487 00:22:40,180 --> 00:22:42,640 He doesn't chastise them. 488 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,840 He just looks at them and he's like, hey, this is not going to be good for you. 489 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,360 So let's do something that's going to help you be better. 490 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:49,360 Yeah. 491 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:51,960 Now, why that works exactly, I don't a hundred percent know. 492 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,800 I told you it's a difficult story, but I know that there's something in the scattering and 493 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,440 the differing string of languages that allows us to actually have better communication and 494 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:01,960 grow into the kind of people God wants. 495 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:02,960 Yeah, absolutely. 496 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,800 The kind of people who actually work in this world because you're like, oh, well, you know, 497 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,240 maybe we should be able to be whatever we want. 498 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,640 The problem is the world was created by God. 499 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,840 It's held together by his standard, not ours. 500 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,760 And when you step outside of that standard, suddenly you have death, disease, infection, 501 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,320 all these different things that aren't meant for the world. 502 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,760 But you're actually stepping outside of God's design. 503 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:22,760 Yeah. 504 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,640 And a good father is going to look at that and say, no, I don't want that for you. 505 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:34,880 I'm also not going to stop you from doing it because I need you to be an individual. 506 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,000 There cannot be obedience with that choice. 507 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,400 No, there cannot be obedience without choice. 508 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:45,560 And how many good parents let their kids take appropriate risk? 509 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,520 You mean how many good parents do? 510 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,080 Yeah, I phrased that, how many good parents. 511 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,280 How many good parents let their kids take appropriate risk? 512 00:23:54,280 --> 00:24:01,280 I've met some parents, I know one person in particular, they coddle their kid. 513 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,280 That's me. 514 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:03,280 That's not me. 515 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,280 It's not me. 516 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,080 But they coddle their kid like none other. 517 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,000 And their kid, if there's a remote hint of their kid getting the scratch, they're like, 518 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,320 no, no, no, we're not doing that type thing. 519 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,000 We live in Alaska, there's bears, there's all sorts of things. 520 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,080 So there's no snakes, there's no snakes. 521 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,400 I love that. 522 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,760 There's no snakes, there's no alligators. 523 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,680 But there's just a little more inherent risk with just sending your kid outside. 524 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,440 Even just sending my daughter outside just to play in the yard, there's a little more 525 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,440 inherent risk. 526 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:38,440 Right. 527 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:44,000 Because you just don't know if a bear is going to walk through the yard. 528 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,800 And so you have to be a little more mindful of that stuff. 529 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:52,680 But at the same time, you have to find ways to let kids have risk, make their own decisions 530 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,280 and live and learn a little bit. 531 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,440 And you see God doing that with his people. 532 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:10,960 I think it's insane to me to think that everything you were going to do is going to be perfect 533 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:11,960 on the first try. 534 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:12,960 Oh, yeah. 535 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,920 My oldest son learned to walk sometime between one and two. 536 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,960 And I always think it's interesting that we focus on this moment when everybody wants 537 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,680 to take pictures of the first step, right? 538 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,880 And they say, well, everything comes from the first step. 539 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,480 That's actually not true. 540 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,880 We had to do tummy time, right? 541 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,960 We had to learn how to crawl. 542 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,400 We had to learn how to sit up. 543 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,960 Also, I don't know about you with your daughter, but I took him and I would hold his hands 544 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:46,760 up and I would let him walk along before he could actually hold himself up. 545 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,600 And then when he took his first step, you know what happened? 546 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:50,600 He fell. 547 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:51,600 Yeah. 548 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:52,600 Almost immediately. 549 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,800 Right on his face, right? 550 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,880 Because that's what learning looks like. 551 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:07,480 Now, I think it's crazy to me that we expect people who go into ministry, people who serve 552 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,560 God, we expect them to be perfect on the first time. 553 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,280 And that's just not realistic with everything else that we've learned. 554 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,400 You're learning how to follow God as a child. 555 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,840 Well, I mean, yeah. 556 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,600 The people going into ministry front, like when you take someone out of one town and 557 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:28,040 put them in another town of full-time ministry, they have to learn an entire new culture. 558 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,040 Yeah. 559 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,040 Right. 560 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,360 You have to metaphorically learn how to walk again. 561 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:32,360 Yeah. 562 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:34,840 It's not just like, oh, well, you've done ministry for 20 years. 563 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:40,280 It's like, no, like you take someone from inner city Seattle and you move them to middle 564 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,480 of nowhere Kansas. 565 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,000 I guarantee you that church is going to be different than the church they were at. 566 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,800 Do you think there's somewhere called nowhere Kansas? 567 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:50,800 I don't know. 568 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,920 They're like, they named our city. 569 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:53,920 It'll be hilarious. 570 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,080 I'm not going to fact check that right now, but it'd be hilarious. 571 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,080 Yeah. 572 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,720 But I mean, like, so when you, when you do stuff like that, which churches do all the 573 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,720 time, when you do stuff like that and expect them, just the pastors to have it right on 574 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,480 the first time, no, it's not going to work. 575 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:09,480 Yeah. 576 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,960 So what I'm saying here that we learn about God is God's okay with them messing up. 577 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:14,960 Yeah. 578 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:15,960 He's also going to correct it. 579 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,960 Yeah. 580 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:17,960 There is no punishment here. 581 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:23,680 He doesn't say that the scattering them and changing the language isn't a punishment. 582 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,400 No, you know, actually let's, let's say that one more time, right? 583 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,000 Not just for the podcast, but because you need to hear it. 584 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,160 Scattering them and confusing their language isn't a punishment. 585 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,400 God's very clear in the Bible when there's punishment. 586 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,360 Yes, he is. 587 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:44,760 And and you know, I'm even going to correct the word because I think we, we have a negative 588 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,200 association with the word and we misunderstand it. 589 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,200 It's not punishment. 590 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,000 It's discipline. 591 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,680 We don't punish our children. 592 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,140 Okay. 593 00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:55,880 Hear me guys. 594 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,680 If you are punishing your children, then you're saying what they are is wrong. 595 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,880 When we discipline our children, we say the behavior is wrong. 596 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,000 You hear me? 597 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,400 Because I'm not interested in punishing my child for being a child. 598 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,200 I am interested in pruning them to be a healthy adult. 599 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,160 Punishment says you are bad. 600 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,120 Punishment says you did bad. 601 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:20,120 Yeah. 602 00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:24,240 And I'm interested in raising a functional child that can actually function in society 603 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,800 and also follow God. 604 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:26,920 Yeah. 605 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:33,320 And I believe that if I think that as a okay father, then God as a good, good father is 606 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,560 going to do the same thing with me. 607 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,400 And so occasionally he's going to come and be like, Hey, what you're doing, it's not 608 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:39,400 great. 609 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:40,880 Let's just prune that. 610 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,640 And let's move you a little bit. 611 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,960 Can we talk about God's grace in this story? 612 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:45,960 Yes, please. 613 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:51,080 Okay, so growing up, I never heard this. 614 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:57,680 And then a few years ago, I heard this and I was like, this makes so much sense. 615 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,280 Okay. 616 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,200 When they were united, they were of the same speech. 617 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,640 They were only thinking of themselves. 618 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,960 And God says, Hey, that's not good. 619 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:18,040 I'm going to have grace on you by confusing your language and scattering you across the 620 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,520 world. 621 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,040 Right? 622 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,800 This is a moment where God's like, Hey, I'm going to have grace because this is going 623 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,560 to be better for you in the long run. 624 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:28,560 Right? 625 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:34,240 And we often skip over that in this passage where we're like, okay, well, God's just angry. 626 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:35,240 He's frustrated. 627 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,240 I was like, no, he's not. 628 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,600 He's like, I'm trying to save and redeem my kids. 629 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,800 There's no indication that God's upset at all. 630 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:41,800 None. 631 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:42,800 No indication. 632 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,120 He's being very grace-filled in this moment because having a different language is going 633 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,400 to force me to understand you. 634 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:51,600 Yeah. 635 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,600 And I can't be selfish and understand you. 636 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,560 And when you're talking to somebody who speaks a different language than you, everybody instinctually 637 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:08,480 goes to this grace-filled spot where they're like, okay, I have to try to understand even 638 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,160 though I don't know the words they're saying. 639 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,360 I have adopted siblings from different parts of the world. 640 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:21,760 And when they first came to our house, we didn't know what they were saying at all. 641 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,800 We had to have a lot of grace as they tried to explain things to us. 642 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,760 And they had to have a lot of grace with us as we tried to explain things to them. 643 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:31,920 Right? 644 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:38,280 When there's this language barrier, we instinctually have grace with each other. 645 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,340 It's very interesting. 646 00:30:40,340 --> 00:30:46,640 And so God's putting this in place so that his kids can be more grace-filled. 647 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,080 It's just... 648 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:53,560 Now don't type away and be like, okay, let's talk about blah, blah, blah. 649 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,560 This is a little bit of a thought experiment, but go with me on it. 650 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:58,560 Yeah. 651 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,640 I think the tendency is to overreact and to be like, okay, so every negative thing that 652 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,520 happens or I perceive negative thing that happens in my life is an opportunity for me 653 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,160 to be more grace-filled. 654 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,000 So on a broad level, yeah. 655 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,040 Yeah. 656 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,560 On another level, it's like sometimes things happen because you're a jerk. 657 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:15,560 Yeah. 658 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:16,560 Right? 659 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:17,560 Completely. 660 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,600 So let's not try to blame God for things that are definitely our fault. 661 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:21,600 Right? 662 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,520 There are natural consequences to what we do. 663 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,560 Back when we were talking about Adam and Eve, there are natural consequences to our choices. 664 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,720 Right? 665 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,000 We have to decide, are we going to define good and evil on our terms or are we going 666 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,320 to trust God's terms? 667 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,320 Yeah. 668 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:41,480 God tells me that it's not good for us to be united in selfishness. 669 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:42,480 And you know what? 670 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,680 I've been in America long enough to agree with him. 671 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:45,680 Yeah. 672 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:46,680 Yeah. 673 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:54,120 I said that about our country because a lot of us are united in our selfish pursuit. 674 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,080 How many believers do you know? 675 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,240 Seven. 676 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,520 I want an exact number on this, Ben. 677 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,720 An exact number. 678 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,440 How many believers do you know who are like, man, I follow Jesus, but then when you get 679 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,480 to know them, you're like, no, you follow a political ideology. 680 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:10,480 Right. 681 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,840 I'm not going to actually get into that, but- 682 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,320 I wasn't asking you to get into it. 683 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,320 I was just going to give me a number. 684 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:16,320 Seven. 685 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:17,320 Okay. 686 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:18,320 Cool. 687 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:19,320 Ten. 688 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:20,320 Seventeen. 689 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,320 Thousand. 690 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:22,320 Seventeen thousand. 691 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:23,320 Okay. 692 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:24,320 That knows a lot of people. 693 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:25,320 I know a lot of people. 694 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,320 I know a lot of people and very few of them. 695 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:28,320 Yeah. 696 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:36,680 I know, it's so difficult because it's this thing of if all the Protestants in America, 697 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:46,120 right, the people who claim to be filled with the grace of God actually lived in such a 698 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:51,600 way that they laid down their life for everybody around them, what kind of America would we 699 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,600 have? 700 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:53,600 Yeah. 701 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,600 Right. 702 00:32:54,600 --> 00:33:00,280 And I'm going to go across all denominations because I think it's really tempting for us 703 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,960 to point at this group or this group. 704 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,780 Everybody's got their issues. 705 00:33:05,780 --> 00:33:09,400 So the best thing that we can do is look at ourselves and say, am I actually living into 706 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:17,040 the gospel narrative where I am seeking to understand, to lay myself down, or am I feeding 707 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,960 into the narrative where I'm going to build a tower for myself? 708 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:20,960 Yeah. 709 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,660 Who's going to make my name great? 710 00:33:22,660 --> 00:33:24,800 Is it going to be me or is it going to be God? 711 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:30,160 I had a conversation with a friend the other day and they were asking questions just about 712 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,520 denominations, stuff like that. 713 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,640 And they're like, okay, well, how do we know, one of the questions they asked, how do we 714 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:40,600 know this specific denominations actually Christian denomination? 715 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,800 And I was like, well, do they believe in Jesus? 716 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,880 Yeah, they believe in Jesus. 717 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:46,880 Okay. 718 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,920 So they've confessed with their mouth that they believe in Jesus. 719 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:50,920 Yes. 720 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:51,920 Okay. 721 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:52,920 So they believe in their hearts. 722 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:53,920 Yes, they believe in their hearts. 723 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:54,920 Okay, there you go. 724 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,920 Now you need to figure out how to work with them. 725 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:57,920 Correct. 726 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:58,920 Yeah. 727 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,960 And people are really uncomfortable with that broad of a level. 728 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,120 I think it's a perfectly valid concern when the people don't fall back to the godly authority 729 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:08,120 of the word of God. 730 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,120 Yeah. 731 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,760 I do think it's concerning when you have your interpretation of the word of God as your 732 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,120 biblical authority. 733 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,120 Yes. 734 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:23,120 We'll get into that in like in future episodes, but let's just hold that out there. 735 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,120 Yeah. 736 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,120 You, we, it's coming. 737 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,120 Teaser. 738 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,120 It's coming. 739 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,680 It's going to come out here. 740 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:37,240 And the temptation is to let our conviction be our command. 741 00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:41,160 And that is not the way of Jesus, first of all. 742 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:46,040 In fact, he frequently corrects that with the Pharisees. 743 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,600 Instead it's an invitation to relationship and to live into that relationship. 744 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,720 Yeah. 745 00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:55,000 And I think that, you know, on the flip side of that, I think there's a perfectly valid 746 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,640 conversations you can have where you talk to somebody and be like, man, I just don't 747 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,320 understand how you're living into relationship with what you're doing. 748 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:03,320 Yeah. 749 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,120 And those are real conversations that you can have. 750 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,760 The problem is frequently we don't want to have those conversations. 751 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,320 We want to come and say, Spencer, I think what you're doing is wrong. 752 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:11,320 Yeah. 753 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,760 And you need to do what I'm doing. 754 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,760 Mm hmm. 755 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,600 Well, now you're building a tower to your name. 756 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,080 Yeah. 757 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,040 As opposed to Spencer, I don't understand how your relationship is actually reflecting 758 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,000 Jesus. 759 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,000 Can we talk about that? 760 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,360 Right. 761 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,520 So Tower of Babel, I mean, like it's a confusing story on some level, but on a lot of levels, 762 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:33,840 it makes a ton of sense. 763 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:34,840 Yeah. 764 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:35,840 Technology is not the problem. 765 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,320 The problem is what you do with technology. 766 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,840 The problem is the people behind technology. 767 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,000 And now that's not a job at big tech companies. 768 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,000 We're all behind technology. 769 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,720 You have a smartphone, you're behind technology. 770 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:46,720 Yeah. 771 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:48,640 Also, you're literally listening to this on Apple or Spotify. 772 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,520 So that's those are the options right now. 773 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:51,520 Yeah. 774 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,080 There might be more in the future, but that's the option right now. 775 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,720 But the issue is, is how we use that technology. 776 00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:57,720 Correct. 777 00:35:57,720 --> 00:35:58,720 Right. 778 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:01,880 And there's been people who have exploited it for personal gain. 779 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:07,240 And then there's been people who have said, no, I'm going to use this for good. 780 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:08,620 Correct. 781 00:36:08,620 --> 00:36:13,080 And the other side of that is about finding unity. 782 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,080 Yeah. 783 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:21,320 Are you unified behind a selfish motive or to subdue the earth, fill it and bring about 784 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,480 the garden? 785 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,800 Which thing is actually going to motivate you to make a name for yourself or to make 786 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,120 let God make your name great? 787 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,560 Yeah. 788 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,560 Right. 789 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:37,960 There's, I mean, these stories guys, like they have really profound implications. 790 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:43,040 And I honestly think like these first 11 chapters, we need to think about a lot more. 791 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,920 Because these are foundational to how we're going to interpret the rest of scripture. 792 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,360 Yeah. 793 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,360 So good. 794 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,360 Yeah. 795 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:52,360 So good. 796 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:53,360 All right. 797 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:54,360 I think that's going to be it for us today. 798 00:36:54,360 --> 00:37:02,280 So you can follow us on Apple or Spotify or spot up the spot up spapple spapple or yeah. 799 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,160 Follow us on Apple or Spotify. 800 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,520 We do have Instagram at love and context. 801 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,600 You can also follow us or send us messages at gmail at love and context at gmail.com. 802 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,600 Yes. 803 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:18,040 We definitely monitoring that on a at least once a month basis. 804 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,040 Yeah. 805 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:20,040 Something like that. 806 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,720 Again, we do have full time jobs. 807 00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:23,200 This is something we're doing on the side. 808 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:28,580 So if you send us a note or message us or something like that, you can expect to wait 809 00:37:28,580 --> 00:37:30,560 a couple of days before you get a response. 810 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:31,560 Nothing personal. 811 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,840 It's just the amount of time we got. 812 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:33,840 Yeah. 813 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,120 And if you, if you find value in what we're saying, if you find value in this conversation, 814 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,360 just give us a like, give us a share, write a, write a review, send it to a friend. 815 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,040 We're not going to go out of our way to like just advertise like crazy because we really 816 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,760 want the growth to belong to God. 817 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,080 Yeah, absolutely. 818 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:54,920 Thank you so much for listening today. 819 00:37:54,920 --> 00:38:00,960 We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we hope that you got something out of it. 820 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:07,400 If you have any questions, please contact us at love and context at gmail.com. 821 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,480 You can also follow us on Instagram and message us through there. 822 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:18,240 Instagram is love and context again, love and context at gmail.com or Instagram are 823 00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:19,920 the two ways to get ahold of us. 824 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,360 If you would like, thank you once again. 825 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,520 We really appreciate you being there. 826 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:41,800 God bless.