Welcome to the Love and Context podcast, an unscripted conversation with Ben and Spencer.
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Welcome to the Love and Context podcast, an unscripted conversation with Ben and Spencer.
Today we're going to be talking about creation and God's design for his people and how men
and women fit into that.
Yeah.
So if you have not done so, you need to go read Genesis 1 and 2 or just pause the episode
or grab your Bible, open it up to Genesis 1 and 2.
That's what we're going to be referencing a lot of today.
Yeah.
And there are...
So we are not going to be getting into the deep theological scholarship of this because
it's an unscripted conversation.
Yeah.
A couple of resources, and you can include this on our page, something we're going to
come back to on a pretty free-fun basis.
The Baymah podcast with Marty Solomon.
It's a great resource in understanding the Bible from a Jewish perspective.
You really like the Bible Projects.
Bible Project is great.
I have a five-year-old who wants to learn more about the Bible, so we're a four-year-old.
She's almost five.
But Bible Project is great.
It's entertaining, it captivates you, and it actually goes quite theologically deep
on a lot of topics.
And I would say in Torah specifically, there is a guy by the name of Rabbi David Foreman,
who is an Orthodox Jew.
He just has a very good handle on Torah.
Now understand he's not a follower of Jesus, but he's going to have some really good insight
into the Hebrew, and so I would recommend a lot of his books.
Specifically, he has a book called The Beast that Crouches at the Door, which is really
good.
It's actually something we're going to be talking about next week, but it's very good.
Yeah.
Very good material.
Yeah.
A couple of things that we were not going to address, and if you have opinions on this
and want to write to us, that's great, but we're just not going to address it.
We're probably not going to address, was the world created in seven literal days, or was
it seven million years, seven billion years, whatnot?
This actually doesn't have anything to do with the text here.
That's not the point of what this passage is talking about.
You're welcome to write us and state your arguments on that, but we are probably not
going to address it on this podcast.
We've also heard most of those arguments, and they are fairly irrelevant to the text
at this point.
Right.
I would say that what we're going to be talking about today is we're proceeding with the assumption
that you believe God created the heavens and the earth in some capacity.
Yes.
And that what the Bible is talking about here matters to you, and with that, we're going
to agree and move forward.
Yes.
So we're not going to get into semantics about was a thousand years a day, was a day a thousand
years, or any of those things.
We don't even want to talk about that because we actually want to talk about what is this
story.
And once again, understanding from a Jewish perspective is going to be really key.
That's why we recommended checking out Baymah Podcasts.
We're going to shout them out a lot.
So let's get into this.
So Genesis 1.
So scholarship on this, theological and scholarship from Bible scholars, look at this as a poem.
There's a word called a chiasm that's very familiar in Middle Eastern literature.
And it's a mirrored text, and it shows up all throughout the Old Testament.
But Genesis 1 is a great example of this.
It's mirrored text where you have something that happens, something that happens, something
that happens, and then it repeats itself down.
Now we could diagram this out, but I think Marty Solomon does a great job.
But just understand that there is a art form in the way this is being written.
So you and I, we use a five paragraph essay.
That's not what Middle Eastern people use.
They use chiasms.
And it's not right or wrong.
It's just different.
And you need to understand that when you're interpreting literature.
Yeah.
And so for us, we'd usually put the conclusion of our argument at the end of an essay and
everything would build up to that.
What you'll find in a chiasm or that structure of writing is that often the conclusion or
the point that they're driving home is found in the middle.
And so you actually see that over and over again in Genesis 1 where it'll say, where
in the middle of each creation day, it'll say, and it was good.
And then it'll reiterate what was good that was made.
So yeah.
So the thing that we're taking a look at Genesis 1, because we want to talk about love and
context.
So when we talk about context for Genesis 1 and we're talking about what does this mean
for the Christian life, I think very often, and you could chime in on this Spencer, I
think very often we look at Genesis 1 and you talk about these arguments of how was
the world created.
We look at it through the lens of how.
And that's not the right question.
So we really have this story about why and who.
And this because God is a relational God and honestly, God couldn't help us understand
how he did it.
Even if we, even if he like wrote us a textbook and it was like, hey, by the way, when I said
that I spoke into the heavens and I said, let there be light, what that means is I gathered
these electrons from nowhere and we don't know, we don't know how that works.
And God couldn't explain it to us.
In fact, in Job, Job is getting high and mighty and he goes, and God comes to him in a whirlwind
and he asks him, I can't forget how many questions it is, but it's a lot.
It's over 70 questions like in a row.
And can we be really clear?
Like Job is asking questions that we ask.
Like he's not asking questions that are unique to just specifically Job.
They're same questions that we actually ask when we're in hardship.
Correct.
And God's answer in all these things, he's not explaining to Job how he does any of these
things.
His point is, I know what's going on in you, don't, so maybe you should trust me.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
I want to come back to the who for a second.
So in the text here, first verse, very first verse of the Bible says, God created the heavens
and the earth.
Right?
So it's establishing that God's the one who's created and he spoke everything into motion.
You see that in verse three, it says in God said in verse six, God said verse nine, God
said verse 14, and then God said verse 20, then God said, right?
Like you're starting to sense a theme here, right?
You're starting to sense a theme here and the sense of like, okay, it's not about how
this happened.
It's about who did it.
It's almost like the fact that God speaks is more important than what happens.
Yeah.
By the way, let's pause there and just say for the Christian existence, that is a piece
that if you walked with that would radically change your faith.
Yeah.
It's not about what actually happens.
It's about who speaks.
200%.
Yeah.
I love that you're back to percentages again.
So and but we do want to note things about the literature.
So like you said, and God said, and God said, after each day it says there was evening,
there was morning, there was evening, there was morning because of course for the Jewish
people day starts at night.
Yeah.
Right?
You start your day with rest, which by the way, if you're coming from captivity of like
400 years with the Egyptians, how awesome of a story is that to start out with?
Oh, right.
Your day starts with rest.
Yeah.
And side note on that day, we'll probably get more into this a little bit later, but
the day of rest never ended.
Yeah.
Day seven never ended.
Yeah.
Day seven doesn't have an end.
So there's a few things going on in the story where it's not a scientific report.
So when we interpret the story, what is the point of this?
What is the point of the story?
Like what questions should we be asking?
So God's not trying to explain to us how he created the heavens and the earth.
He's trying to explain to us who he is because if we if we look at this historically, where
would they have received this at the beginning?
Like the first time they would have heard this theoretically, if we take Moses's authorship,
would have been out of Exodus.
It would have been out of Exodus and at Sinai.
So they're coming out of 400 years of captivity.
Yeah.
And they're coming to this position and they're like, well, who is this God that brought us
up?
Because they don't know.
They haven't been walking with them for 400 plus years.
And they're faithful people.
Like I don't want to get into that.
But overall, there's people who are still serving the gods of the Egyptians, even when
they're brought up by Yahweh.
Yeah.
And so they're like, well, who is this God?
And so God tells them the story in the beginning.
I spoke and brought things out.
Yeah.
But we talked about the chiasm, right?
Yep.
Now here's the juicy piece about that.
In the middle of the chiasm, one of the main teachings of the sages and the rabbis is that
creation comes around this piece, this word that is is muad, right?
We use it to translate seasons, but it's also a word that is used to translate into Sabbath
or rest or something of that nature.
And so the whole story hinges around seasons and rest, which sounds a lot like what happens
in day seven.
Yeah.
Day seven, a day of rest never ends.
And so at this point, man had been created.
So we're kind of jumping ahead in the story.
We might come back to some other pieces here.
But at this point, man's been created.
And so our design is to be with God and resting in his presence.
Right.
In fact, actually, we were talking about this just before we kicked on the recording.
I actually told you that actually God talks about making man in his image twice.
Yeah.
Looking at verse 26, he says, then God said, let us make mankind in our image and our likeness
so that they may rule over the fish and the sea and the birds of the sky, over the livestock
and all the wild animals and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
All right.
So that is the first mention of we're going to make man in our image.
And it gives us our function.
The original design is we're supposed to be like God and administer his rule on the world.
That's our job.
Yep.
So God created mankind in his own image.
It's a beautiful thing.
Right.
I love that.
Like, it's so good.
I, I think we sometimes go past this too quickly.
The word here actually being used as image.
Do you know other places in the Bible, it's actually translated as idol.
Really?
Yeah.
So the root word is actually a word that they would use for like these carbon idols.
Okay.
So now hear that in terms of the Exodus where God says don't have carbon idols.
Why should you not have an idol of God?
Because you're made in the image.
Humanity is made in the image of God.
Yeah.
And so if you try to make an idol, you're actually discrediting the very thing God created.
Yep.
Like when you try to physically make something, which by the way, let's, let's just go ahead
and point out Greek culture and America is very much inherent from Greek culture.
These stone like vigils of people, right?
The Michelangelo.
Yeah.
The David, right?
We make these images of these people and to like lift them up, we might, we just might
be missing what God was doing there.
Yeah.
And please don't hear me here.
Please don't hear me downing on the art.
That's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about the intention behind the art is when you glorify humanity over God.
Yeah.
So this is one of the most compelling arguments I've heard to say that this is actually a
real true authentic story.
So you have God who created everything.
He spoke it into motion.
He bent down.
He formed a man and women in his own image and he created them, right?
Chapter three, a little spoiler alert, we stepped away from God.
We're going to talk about that another episode.
And then what do we do in turn for the next thousands of years?
We create, we build, like, and we find that everything we build fails, right?
Because we have, because we're now in a fallen nature and everything's and things are broken
on that front, but what God built lasts.
And so to be, and so, but the point being is that we were made in his image and so we
couldn't help but create.
Right.
So my wife just participated in an art event and she made this incredible, just incredibly
complex dress.
So as far as artists, like I'm a musician and I write when it comes to like actual like
drawing any of those sort of things, like it is just not good.
It is not good.
Tara, you got the stick figures down?
I got stick figures down.
Okay.
But my wife is, she has the eye for creating in visual representation.
And when I was at the event and they were showing the dress that she made, I actually
got a little bit emotional because I looked and I saw the hundreds of hours that went
into making what was going on there.
And sometimes I think we discredit our creation, our ability to create because we're actually
made in the image of God who is a creator in his own, his own right.
And and like that's where we get that from.
And I was like, and so when we create, we actually put God on display or we put ourselves
on display, which we'll talk about human nature, but this is the story that starts out at the
very beginning.
God is a creator.
He loves his creation.
You're made for rest.
This is the place you're supposed to live from.
You're supposed to work from.
You have a role.
It's to be my image in the world and put my, my legacy forward.
And like in a day seven of rest that never ends, we're being invited into this.
Now I want to point out chapter three comes, but we're not there yet.
And I think a lot of the times in the Christian culture and you tell me what you think about
this.
We start in chapter three and we forget that chapter one exists.
Oh, I'm resisting the urge to jump to chapter three right now.
Like, like I so just want to jump to chapter three and start talking about it, but I'm
resisting that urge because we're in one and two.
Yeah.
You feel the evangelical pull to three.
Yeah.
I feel, I feel the systematic pull of like, Hey, we have to start with this.
When I was like, no, we got, and it's actually, we got started with creation.
Yeah.
And I'm still, I still aligned from Baymont hot guests, which I think is a very good line
in Marty Solomon, the story in its original telling the story is good.
Yeah.
It's a good creation.
So let's take a look at chapter one again.
We get to the very end.
God has made man.
And we're going to come back to this because we have some thoughts on this as we move forward,
but God has made man and he comes back and he looks at it's right at actually at the
beginning of chapter two.
He says, thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
By the seventh day, God had finished the work he had been doing.
So on the seventh day, he rested from all his work, by the way, preach when you're done,
be done at rest.
Okay.
Then God blessed the seventh day and he made it holy.
I'm, we'll talk about that second, but because on it, he rested for all the work of creating
that he had done.
Sorry.
I actually forgot in verse 31, God saw all that he made and it was very good.
And there was evening and there was morning the sixth day.
So when I say creation is good and the story was good and you're like, well, but chapter
three, don't argue with me because I'm quoting God.
He said that the story was very good right here.
Yeah.
And you're, you're just quoting one part of chapter one that says it was good.
Yeah.
He's been saying it the whole time.
Like at the end of each day, it was good.
Day one, good.
Day two, good.
Day three, good.
Day four, good.
Five, good.
Six, good.
I like how you had to commit all the way through.
I did.
I almost stopped at three and I was like, no, I'm going for it.
Yeah.
And so much so that we use the word holy.
We say he, he makes the seventh day holy.
Holy is a word means set apart, different from everything else.
Right?
So rest with God, life with God is actually separate from all of the creating, all of
the working, everything about that.
That is something different.
And that is the place that never ends.
And we're invited to go live into and we're invited to live into that today.
Correct.
Yeah.
I mean, okay.
So now if you have that foundational piece and you say from the very beginning, this
is the story that you're supposed to get from Genesis one that you are made for, you are
made for something.
Yeah.
You have an intention and it's very good.
Yeah.
You're made in the image of God.
You're not valued by what you can produce.
You're valued by whose image you're made in.
Right?
You have a calling on your life.
Yeah.
And it's very good.
And you're invited to live in this restful communion with God and to work from there.
Yeah.
So that's the place we should be starting from.
Yeah.
And to put this in like practical context, both Ben and I have four year olds, right?
We love our children dearly.
So dearly.
That probably sounded sarcastic, but I do.
Ben sounds sarcastic about everything, but we love our children dearly, right?
I do not love my daughter for what she can accomplish.
Correct.
Like I don't mean wrong.
I love her accomplishments.
The things she completes, the tasks that she does when she cleans up her room, like stuff
like that.
I love it.
Love that.
But I love my daughter because she is mine.
Correct.
Not because of what she can do.
By the way, there's a word for parents that only like their kids for what they can do.
It's called terrible.
They're terrible parents.
My kids do not have to earn my love.
They've got it unconditionally and it's impossible to lose it.
Yeah.
That does not mean that they get away with everything they want.
Yeah, man.
I was like, being made in the image of God, I was like, and this is kind of this thing
because I want to really point out and we're over emphasizing it here because the church
has so de-emphasized it over the years.
The statement that we hear all the time is you're a dirty rotten sinner.
Jesus came and hippie Jesus came because he was all love and died on a cross and took
everything that you deserved because the father was angry.
He pours out his wrath, all these different things.
And there's truth to that and we're going to get there.
But at the same time, in the beginning, you were made in the image of God and you were
created for a purpose.
And you need to know that.
This is the intention from the very beginning because the work of Christ brings us back
to the beginning.
That's what they talk about in Genesis chapter three, yet we somehow just jump right over
the intention when he says, I'm getting to chapter three already, man, evangelical roots
just kicking in here.
Right, he's going to say, he's going to say, you know, the woman is going to crush the
head of the serpent or the kid is going to crush the head of the serpent.
You know, why?
Because you need to come back to the garden.
Revelation, you're coming back to the garden.
Everything is coming back to the garden.
Even in the gospel of John, Mary comes to the tomb and she mistakes Jesus for what?
A gardener.
Yep.
Of course she does.
Why?
Because the idea of the garden, the pre fall world is now available through the life of
Jesus Christ.
And so understanding this for the Christian life is incredibly important because through
Christ, that's the life we're supposed to live now.
Yeah.
And I just want to stop and ask the question, why do we skip over one and two?
Oh, so yeah.
Like, I mean, like, so like if we're starting the story at three and we're just already
a little ways into the story, but we're like, hey, we're going to start our chapter three,
but we skip over one and two reality is gospel of John.
Very first part, he echoes back to chapter one and two in the beginning was the word.
The word was with God.
The word was God.
Yeah.
He echoes back to John and Genesis one and two.
He doesn't, he doesn't start off by saying, Hey, you're a horrible sinner.
You need forgiveness.
He, he actually in, and side note, John's writing to a group of people who were not
Jewish.
Like they may have had some Jews in there, but it was a lot of Gentile believers who
didn't have a big Jewish faith background.
So he's writing to them and he doesn't start with, Hey, you're a sinner.
He starts with, Hey, the one who came to Jesus was with God in the beginning when he created
everything and everything is good.
Right.
You're going to see throughout the gospel of John, he's making a lot of Jewish references
that he knows the Jews will catch and explain to the Gentiles around him.
Yep.
And so addressing the pagan culture directly at the same time, because John is just brilliant.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Like it's almost like he had help.
Yeah.
So coming back to this idea, right?
So you're created for a purpose.
You created to, to live from this purpose.
You're created in the image of God and not only you're created in the image of God, but
Spencer's created the image of God.
So when I interact with Spencer, why do I have, let's come back to Jesus's big thing.
Okay.
Cause we talked about this in our intro podcast.
You were going to love God and love our neighbor.
Yeah.
Right.
So why do I love my neighbor as myself?
Cause like myself, they are the image of God.
Yeah.
And when you see somebody like whoever they are, drug addict, abusive husband, I'm trying
to think of like terrible people, terrorist, but all of these people, we look at them and
we see not who they are today, but who they can be through the redemptive work of Christ
and as the image of God.
Yeah.
Being made in the image of God, it's, it's, oh man, it's tough, right?
Like, and the reason I say it's tough is because I have neighbors.
And when I say neighbors, like people in my community that I'm like, man, they're really
hard to love.
Right.
And, but that doesn't matter because they are made in the image of God and I am called
to love them.
Correct.
And so, and, and when you start viewing it this way and you start thinking of, okay,
what happens when I don't love those who are made in the image of God?
Well, I can tell you exactly what you look like.
Yeah.
And so, and so then we, as believers, we wonder, we wonder like, well, man, why don't people
want more of what we have?
Yeah.
And it's like, well, because you're not loving those who are made in the image of God.
Right.
And in turn, if you're not loving them, what are you doing?
Right.
And so, I was talking about today, I was closing out as in the Gospel of John.
So you already know love your neighbor as yourself.
Right.
And then Jesus says, a new command I give to you.
You're not going to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Yeah.
You're going to love each other as I have loved you.
Yeah.
And I was talking about that at church and I was sitting there, I was like, man, I feel
conviction.
Uh huh.
I was like, cause it's not even just how I love myself.
It's beyond that.
Because we're going to talk about what God does.
But even in the story of the creation, it's littered with love of God all over it.
Funny side note to this, I was supposed to go up on stage and play guitar and I was just
so like into what Pastor was saying and what Ben was saying.
I was like, yeah, this is right on.
Then afterwards, Ben was like, where were you?
And I was like, I felt very alone because he's supposed to, you know, go back there
and play those, those lilting guitar lines.
And I was like, I'm so lonely.
Like, I was up there with myself, but you know what?
Uh, the spirit of God showed up.
Yeah.
100%.
So let's come back to, come back to Genesis.
You're going to hear us ramble a lot.
Hopefully when we edit it, we'll see, we'll seem more coherent.
Um, so God says, uh, it's very good.
It's very good.
So one of the things that I want to talk about here is this.
So we were talking about function, right?
So, uh, understanding that you have a job, right?
Uh, your job is to be the image of God.
It's his image in you and he's the one that accomplishes it.
Yeah.
But you do have a job.
You got to show up.
Right.
So, uh, one step further than that, he then talks about, um, how he makes man, right?
Because you're created for rest.
You're created to rule.
You're created to go and do all these different things.
So what it actually says here in, uh, in Genesis one, and we'll go in verse, uh, let's see
here we're in verse 27.
So God created mankind in his own image.
In the image of God, he created them male and female.
He created them.
Okay.
Let's talk about what's going on in Hebrew here.
So God created mankind in his own image.
Okay.
Mankind is one is singular, right?
Yep.
In the image of God, he created them singular, male and female.
He created them plural.
Okay.
So people are going to be really uncomfortable with this, but the first time God mentions
the division of sexes, he says that men and women together are the image of God.
Yes.
Man is not the image of God.
Woman is not the image of God.
Man and woman together are the image of God.
Yes.
And after he says that, he looks back on creation.
He says, this is very good.
Right?
Yep.
So our job in being the image of God is also to recognize...
Now I think there's application, of course, you can say, oh, well, husbands and wives,
all those different things.
I think that's appropriate.
Can we touch on the marriage portion just for a moment?
Yeah.
Well, and husbands and wives, but more...
Sorry, real quick.
Let me finish that thought and then let's go jump to marriage real quick.
We talk about husbands and wives and I think that's a totally appropriate reaction, but
we're also talking about community.
Yeah.
So the community of men and women together are the image of God.
We represent God together.
Yeah.
So as I read this and as I look at this, one of the things that pops to mind is 1 Corinthians
where Paul is like, hey, it's better for you to stay single.
Right?
And so when you read that and you're like, well, how does that fit into the image of
man and woman being...
Or the idea of man and woman being the image of God together.
Right?
This isn't as much about marriage at this point in the story and this we've heard.
I mean, how many times have you gone to a wedding and you've heard something from Genesis
1 or Genesis 2 mentioned in the context of marriage?
There's some context there, but this isn't more so in the context of community and fellowship
with God together.
Right?
It's actually would be closer related to a church context than a marriage context.
Well, we see that happening all throughout scripture.
Yeah.
Like Paul uses husband and wife to reference Christ in the church all the time.
All the time.
And find it interesting, something I was just noticing as you were talking and reading.
The first command God gives them after creation.
Yeah.
Be fruitful and multiply.
Yeah.
Can only be done together.
Yep.
Right?
Now, of course, there, of course, there's a sexual connotation, right?
Because you have to have sex in order to produce babies.
Hopefully nobody's surprised by that.
But right after it says, fill the earth and subdue it.
Rule over the fish and the seas and the birds and the sky and over every living creature
that moves on the ground.
Those you could do by yourself.
Right?
You could do those by yourself.
You could subjugate women or men depending on the historical perspective.
But you can't be fruitful and multiply without the other.
And I think there's a reason for that.
Yeah.
You cannot fill the earth without the other.
No, you got to have both.
And they're both the image of God and they both have a function.
Now, I want to talk about this because everything from this point forward, because people are
going to write to us about First Timothy, they're going to write to us about First Corinthians
and what Paul says when they take them out of context.
You know, talk about that constantly.
From the very beginning, God says, both of you are very important to maintaining the
image of God and together you represent the image of God.
So everything that comes after this is based on this predication.
And if you write to us saying, well, Paul says, wife, submit to your husbands.
I'm like, OK.
And he also says, hey, husbands, lay down your life for your wives.
Says Christ laid down his life for you.
Yeah.
So I mean, if you're going to say that, it's like me being a man, I listen to that.
I'm like, it sounds like the easier job is not my job.
So OK, so why is that really important?
Why am I hitting this as such a stickler?
Because we have to talk about foundational things.
You have to understand you're made in the image of God.
You have to understand you are created from rest.
You have to understand you have a function to forward the rule of God into the world,
to fill the earth and subdue it, to grow the garden.
Right.
And you're not supposed to do it alone.
You're supposed to do it in community.
In fact, even if you disagree with me, I'm going to talk about chapter two.
Yeah.
So chapter two, they take a step back and I don't want to talk about some literary things
going on.
Check out the Bible Project, Baymount Podcast.
They have some great stuff.
But one of the things I find interesting in chapter two is God tells us that he's not
enough.
Oh, you should get hate mail from him.
Oh, yeah.
I know.
Right.
Okay.
So hear what I'm saying.
I was trying to think of something productive to say and I'm like, no, that's just going
to get hate mail.
I know.
Right.
So what God says here is it says that he is walking with Adam.
Yeah.
Right.
He is communing with Adam on a daily basis, walking, communing, doing all these different
things.
Right.
And God looks at him and he says it is not good for man to be alone.
Okay.
So the end of chapter one, it's very good.
Everything is very good.
It's been good, good, good, good, good.
And God says, hey, man, you're walking with me by yourself and it's not good.
You need something else.
Chapter two, verse 18, if you guys are wondering.
Yeah.
It says it is not good for man to be alone.
And I think that makes people wildly uncomfortable.
Yeah.
So by the way, chapter two is actually a great example of how chapter one probably doesn't
work the way you think it does.
Neither does chapter two.
These are stories that are talking to us about who God is and why he did things his way.
Yeah.
And we need to understand that if you want to believe they literally happened this way,
I think that's totally acceptable.
If you have some questions, but you accept by faith that God is setting up some things
intentionally for you to understand, we can have grace with that.
Most likely we're going to get to heaven and both of us are wrong.
Yeah.
And if you are, I just want to pause here and just say, okay, let's just talk disagreements
for a second.
If you're like, man, I really disagree.
There's points on the creation story that actually Ben and I disagree about.
Correct.
And we're sitting here talking about together because we're like, that's not, it's not the
point.
That's not the point of what's going on here.
Yeah.
And that's not fun in our disagreement because we actually push each other to grow.
Even though I'm right and he still has to come around to a few points, but my thinking
is he's entitled to his wrong opinion.
Yeah, exactly.
So I think it's interesting here also.
One of the things I want to say in pro-women category, God says that there is no suitable
helper found for Adam, Edzer Konegdo.
Yeah.
Right?
In other words, like, so it's the force that opposes, right?
Is Edzer Konegdo in Hebrew.
But beyond that, most commonly referred to as Edzer Konegdo in the Bible is God himself.
Yeah.
So God says, God says, man, there's no Edzer Konegdo for you.
So I got to pull it out of you.
Right?
And so in the thinking of, and then putting it in the context of, okay, the same language
that was used to describe a woman as a helper is the same language as used to describe God
as our helper.
Yeah.
That relationship is supposed to be real important.
Yeah.
And I would never think to relegating God to a subservient role.
No.
I would say that we've done that in our churches a lot.
We have.
We try to construct these boxes that we put God in and say, God, you're going to work
in these ways because that's how I understand things.
Well, I love it.
I love it when churches do that because it's just like, dude, it's only a matter of time
before God blows outside the box.
And it's like, that was cute that you think you could contain me.
It's one of those things where I think God waits to hear those things and he's like,
ah, I'm going to show you some stuff.
So in case you are thinking like, man, maybe my church puts God in a box.
I'm not dogging on your church or anything.
No.
I think that they're faithful in following God.
Yeah.
I think a lot of churches that do put God in a box are faithfully trying to follow God
to the best of their ability.
But when you put God in a box, it's like trying to contain a lion with a cardboard box.
It's just not going to work.
Well, I don't think we do it intentionally either.
No.
And that, if anything, in these conversations, what we're trying to do is be intentional
about what we do.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Like most churches, most Christians, when they do these things, they do them because
they've just heard them repeat it over and over again.
And they never stop to think about what is the point of the story?
Yeah.
Why does this apply to me as a Christian today?
Right?
So God says there's no suitable helper.
And he puts man into a sleep and he pulls the man's rib, which actually the rib isn't
actually a real word.
It's like he just pulled a piece out of him.
Right?
We've translated a rib, but it doesn't actually mean rib.
It's a weird thing in Hebrew.
But then he closes it up and then he made woman from the piece and he brought her to
man.
And the interesting thing is I love this perspective from Adam.
So he's going to name Eve.
And by the way, like you really need to check out before he named, she is named Eve.
She is named woman.
Because right here, this is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.
She shall be called woman for she was taken out of man.
Okay.
Her name is not Eve at this point.
Do you know when her name turns Eve?
Later in the story.
Yeah.
Later in the story, chapter three, her name gets changed to Eve.
And you know why her name becomes Eve?
Adam says because she will be the mother of all living.
Okay.
She's going to be the mother of all the living.
And so here she's valued because she was bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh and taken out.
And she will be called woman, Isha, for she was taken out of man, Ish.
That's the Hebrew.
And now she's valued because she's the mother of all living.
So you're now gone from being valued for who you are.
Now you're valued for what you can produce.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Adam's not referred to as Adam.
And Genesis wanted to.
He's referred to as man.
Yeah, we put Adam.
Yeah.
But Adam is just man or actually rather dust.
Yeah.
So Adam is actually Hebrew for man.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And so like you actually use it like with the whole idea of man or woman.
Yeah.
So.
Yeah.
But he doesn't have a name either.
His name is man.
Yeah.
Which I mean, I call a lot of people man.
I was like, hey, man, how's it going?
Especially if I don't remember your name.
Right.
I probably shouldn't have said that on the podcast.
I'll be like, does he remember my name?
I probably do.
I served at a church for a while where the pastor couldn't remember your name.
He called you buddy.
And people caught on to that.
So like we would show up with name tags that said buddy.
And so that he would like walk up to us and like, oh, you got a name tag on.
Hey, buddy.
Be like, oh, okay.
I see what you're doing.
You got me there.
Yeah.
So this story, you know, I mean, I think chapter one and two, there's so many things and we're
kind of just skipping a stone across the surface.
So for the purpose of our podcast, where we're talking about love and context.
Yeah.
We got to understand that the intention of God from the very beginning is he says, I
need to put you in the best possible position to forward my life into the world.
Yeah.
I want to partner with humanity.
I don't know why he wants to do it.
He just does.
That's how he wants to do it.
Probably because he's a father and fathers like doing that stuff.
Yeah.
I mean, like there's things I do with my daughter that I'm like, I really like, this is not
an activity I enjoy at all.
But the fact that I'm doing it with my daughter is huge.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And so like, if you're going to write and be like, well, why did God create a man and
woman?
I was like, I don't know.
But what I can tell you is he created them.
Right.
You know, one of the, I'm reminded of a story and I shared this in a, in a message about
a year ago.
It's from John Tyson from his book, The Intentional Father, which you should read because it's
great.
But he tells a, tells a parable about a farmer who is installing a fence with his two kids.
And a guy drives by, then he sees these kids, they're like five and four.
You know, they're young kids.
They're boys.
They're, you know, doing what boys do and they're putting in the post, but they're like,
they pull one side out and the other side goes out.
And you know, you can just imagine what that looks like when they're trying to build the
fence.
And the guy stops and he's chatting with the farmer and he says, he says, yeah, why
are you, why are you kids out here doing this?
It's like, surely, you know, you're on a timeline.
I know why was this coming up?
You got to be doing this quicker.
You know, you could do it a lot faster.
And the farmer looks at him and he says, oh, you were under the impression that I'm building
a fence.
I'm actually raising my sons.
Yep.
Yeah.
And I think sometimes we look and we write, God is building a fence.
And I'm like, no, he's raising sons and daughters.
Yeah.
Because for him, being raised correctly matters more in the world than anything else.
Uh huh.
So as you're saying that, I'm thinking like, okay, how patient are good parents with their
kids?
Right.
Like how long suffering with their patients are they?
Right.
Because I mean, for me, I like to get things done.
Right.
Because I like to get something done efficiently.
I like to, I have, usually when I jump into a project, I have a way I'm going to do it.
I'm going to do it this way.
This is how it's going to happen.
I got all that lined out and then somebody I love steps in and is like, I'm going to
help you.
And the next thing I know, I can't find my tools or whatnot.
And I'm like, but the point being is I can either get frustrated because I'm not doing
the project my way.
Sure.
Or I could slow down and be like, Hey, this is going to take twice as long, but I get
a chance to be a good parent.
Right in this moment.
Well, and if you as a good father, right?
Especially like you're a good father.
Well, I'm glad you think that.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
Okay.
You're an okay father.
You're like on the verge.
You're on the verge.
All right.
You know how like they have those things where it's like both green and yellow.
You're like right about to cross green.
Oh, okay.
All right.
I'll take it.
But if that's you, what do you think God's like?
Yeah.
You know, I love when people get controversial about music in the church.
So I'm just going to throw a piece of music out there that people really, it stirred up
a lot of fires.
Oh, the overwhelming, never ending, reckless love of God.
And people say that God is not reckless.
I was like, listen, he bankrupted heaven to redeem you back to himself.
Jesus told a parable about a farmer leaving 99 sheep to go find the one.
That's reckless.
You want to do that?
Yeah.
And then he has a party and he probably slaughters a bunch of sheep that aren't the one.
Okay.
So the thing that makes me laugh, you know, right?
I think it makes me laugh about like when people like make the claim of like, oh, God's
love isn't like, God's not reckless, right?
It's like, well, okay, actually his love is very reckless in the sense of that he is going
to do everything he can to give us every opportunity to say yes to being with him.
Correct.
And so, and then he's literally going to say over my dead body.
Yeah.
Here's the funny part though.
We've made movies that have nothing to do with God that paint that exact same picture.
Right.
Like you think of the movie like taken by, with Liam Mason.
Uh-huh.
Right.
And he's kidnapped and he's like, I am, doesn't matter who's in my world.
I will find you.
Yeah.
And I will give you a hug.
Yeah.
That's the edited version.
But that's the father's love.
Yeah.
It doesn't matter.
I'm going to find my kid and I'm going to bring them home.
Yeah.
And it doesn't matter what it costs.
It doesn't matter what gets in the way.
If I get hurt in the process, but they still come home.
Yeah.
And I think part of the problem that people have with the word reckless is they start
to put it with careless.
No, it's not that at all.
Yeah.
I don't think it's careless at all.
Reckless means that you don't care about the cost.
Yeah.
When you looking at the benefit.
So yeah, reckless driving, right?
Yeah.
Right.
So let's just take reckless driving because I think that's one of the places we use reckless
more than others.
The whole thing about reckless driving is you are completely ambivalent about everything
around you in pursuit of your goal.
Right.
Which is that you want to drive the way you want to drive, you want to go fast, you want
to go on the curb, you want to drive up a slide at the playground.
I don't know, something like that.
Right.
Like it means that with your goal, what you're trying to achieve is the utmost importance
and everything else doesn't matter.
Yeah.
I got to be honest with you.
Sounds a lot like God coming after us with Jesus.
Right.
Sounds a lot like a guy who takes on the sins of the world, come back, defeats death and
then pours the Holy Spirit into all his people.
Yeah.
So it's between self-interested recklessness or recklessness that's targeted towards being
selfless towards others.
Right.
You can be totally reckless in your self-pursuit to better yourself, have more money, whatnot,
and hurt a lot of people along the way.
Or you can be totally reckless in your pursuit of making sure that everybody in your life
is well cared for, well loved, that they know who Jesus is, not just through words, but
through how you love them.
Like that's a level of recklessness that I think we as a church have lost.
Right.
So if we take this back to Genesis.
Yeah.
Right.
Wait, this ties into Genesis?
Yeah.
Okay, sweet.
Sargassum.
So if we take this back to Genesis, right, and we talk about...
So would you agree that God knew what was going to happen before it happened?
Yeah.
Right.
That time is probably a construct God created and not something he has to obey.
Yeah.
So God 100% knew what was going to happen and he did it anyways.
Right.
So here he is, he's sitting in chapter one.
Yeah.
Like, figuratively, telling us about good creation, telling us about the intention of our humanity,
telling us about the intention of men and women, telling us that it's not good to be
alone, and this idea of learning to subdue the earth and fill it so that his glory goes
everywhere.
So he's telling all of this knowing that chapter three is coming.
Yeah.
He knows chapter three is coming and he also knows that thousands of years after that are
coming before Jesus comes back, comes down to earth.
Yeah.
Right?
This is foundational to our faith because what God does that, right?
What God does that.
What God is like, they're going to betray me, so I'm going to make everything perfect.
And then when they betray me, I'm going to pick up the broken pieces and come after them.
And so I'm not, what I'm going to say next, I'm not going to say in the context that we
need to dive deeper into it and understand it, but I want to say more so in the context
of, okay, there is a lot going on here that we may not understand in our earthly life.
Okay.
So if God, let's just, if God has the power to create life, to create everything, right,
put everything into motion, right?
And he knew we were going to betray him, yet he still made the tree of knowledge of good
and evil.
Right?
And there's lots of, like I said, I'm not going to dive into the theories on that.
There's lots of theories on it.
Go research it.
Call Ben up.
He's got theories on it too.
But he, God could have said, you know what, I'm not going to make that.
And then man and woman made in my image will be with me in this garden, perfect paradise
forever.
Right?
He could have said, no, I'm not going to do that.
But he did, knowing that we were going to say no, right, to him.
Well, and can we, can we just acknowledge that if you don't have a choice, is it love?
Yeah.
You mean no?
I'm saying yes and I agree with your rhetorical question.
I'm assuming you're asking a rhetorical question right now.
I thought you were like, yes, that's exactly what it is.
I was like, come on.
Let's get this clarified.
My answer is no.
Ben was asking a rhetorical question and I was, yeah, so yeah.
Oh man, that's funny.
I'm totally leaving that in.
That's going to be great.
It's going to be great.
Man.
Okay.
So, you know, a lot of the things that we're raising up here, by the way, we should, we
should preface, like if you're going to have a really hard time because we approve of women
in ministry and those types of things, you probably are not going to want to listen to
us a ton.
Or just disagree with us on it.
That's totally cool too.
We're totally fine with you disagreeing.
Here's the deal.
We listen to people we disagree with all the time.
All the time because they have good perspectives still.
Yeah.
So if you are listening to this, you're like, hey, I don't necessarily agree with that one
point and you want to keep listening, great.
We love that.
If you are listening to this and you're like everything they're saying, I don't agree with,
then this probably isn't the podcast for you.
Right.
But I do hope that we can provide some perspective that might be outside of your normal understanding.
So if we were to sum up what, what, what is the Christian life?
What do we pull from chapters one and two?
I think the first thing we pull is that we're not made for production.
Like we have a job, but we're not made for production.
We're actually made to rest in the, in the rule and reign of God.
Yeah.
But we do have a function and that it's through the function of God in our lives that those
things get accomplished.
Right?
Yes.
Um, I think he used that correctly.
Yes, you did that.
That time you did, you know, and now you have to leave it in because otherwise, yeah, that
doesn't make sense.
That man and woman together represent the image of God and that we need to value both
the male and female of our gender, our gender.
We need to value both the male and female of our species and that God tells us that
it's really important because even when we were walking with him all by herself, it wasn't
enough.
It was not good.
Yeah.
We're made for community.
I don't understand why God says that that's what we need, but he says that's what we need.
But if you actually even look into the nature of God himself, there, we don't understand
how he's three in one.
We don't really understand that.
I mean, there's going to be theologians, aren't there theologians who write and say, Hey,
we think this is what it is.
And it's like, you think we don't understand how God, the father, God, the son, God, the
Holy Spirit are all one person.
And we're probably not going to, but we do see how they relate to each other.
We're made for community.
Is it any wonder that we as humanity made in the image of God are also made for community?
Right?
So we're made for community.
And so if you're trying to live your Christian existence by yourself, stop it.
You are made to be with other people and you're not going to find the fullness of Christ in
your life without that.
No, you're not.
So find, if you are trying to do this by yourself, find a community of believers.
And a lot of times what we do, I want to be, I want to be really clear on this.
Like I have some, I have some unpopular opinions about the church or unpopular views.
Well, and you have some church trauma too.
Yeah, yeah, we all do.
Both you and I do, but find a community of believers.
I'm not saying, okay, go to your closest church.
That's next to your house, right?
I mean, you can go check it out if you want, but find some people who genuinely care about
you, who love Jesus, who can do life with you.
Right?
That could be, that could, they don't have to necessarily meet on Sunday.
Yeah.
Do those people call identity out of you?
Do they call you into something deeper or do they just help you observe religious practice?
Yeah.
Because the Christian of life is, is yes, about learning about who God is.
It's theology.
I am, I'm going to call it orthodoxy.
Okay.
We're also very concerned with orthopraxy.
What are you doing with what you know?
Because the Christian life is best exhibited.
Your faith is best exhibited by what you do.
I liken it to this is like, as you say, okay, well, my vacuum cleaner is great.
It works really well.
You know how I know a vacuum cleaner works really well?
You plug it in and start vacuuming some things.
Right?
If you tell me how great your vacuum is, is that it's never plugged in.
Eventually and your floor is filthy.
Eventually I'm like, okay, I don't know if I believe you.
That seems really weird that your floor is filthy.
Your vacuum cleaner is great.
And yet it's never clean.
One thing that's worth adding is that man was given a job before the fall.
And we, we alluded at it.
We talked about it some, but they were given a job.
Man was given a job before the fall is given the role of taking care of the earth, tending
to the garden, subduing it, being the master of everything there.
He was given a job.
So if you are, if you're thinking this like, okay, well, I've said yes to Jesus and his
work on the cross.
And so I am free from all responsibilities.
I was like, no, you still have a job.
Like this actually having a job actually echoes back to creation.
Right.
It doesn't echo back to the law.
Right.
You're just not valued by your job.
Yeah.
You're valued in whose image you're made and the fact that you're God's kid.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
You were saying that and you know what prompted in my head, we said, you were created to fill
the earth, subdue it and all those different things that go.
Here Jesus in Matthew 28, all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me.
Therefore go.
Yeah.
And make disciples.
Guys, we still got a job.
Yeah.
And, and you know, you know what that sounds a lot like?
Subdue the earth and fill it.
Yeah, it does.
And disciples.
Now, please do not go and subdue people.
That is not what I'm saying.
And if you're like Ben told me to go subdue people, I'm like, I'm going to find you.
That blocks for Jesus.
I don't care if you're in South Carolina.
I'm going to find you.
I'm going to slap you across the face.
Not what I said.
I'm saying with the same intention that we're supposed to fill the earth, subdue the earth
and fill it, our job is bring the kingdom of God to the world, make disciples and see
it realized in our midst.
Yeah, we have that job.
And if you look at the great commission, it starts off with Jesus saying, Hey, I have
all authority.
And then it goes to the disciples saying, go.
And then it ends with Jesus saying, I'm with you.
Right.
So if you're like, man, this is scary.
It's like, dude, Jesus has authority and he is with you.
Right.
And so he was there at the beginning during creation, Jesus, right.
Yeah.
And who claimed to be God.
He is like, I'm going to be with you as you do this.
Yeah.
Now, how embarrassing is it for you to be like, Oh man, that's that person's on the
street corner is scary.
Right.
And God's like, bro, come on.
Or sister, come on.
Like, yeah, don't be sexist.
Yeah.
Get with it.
Right.
And I have a bit of a blunt personality and so sometimes my conversations with God are
like, him taking a two by four and being like, you idiot.
Let's you know what you're supposed to do.
I think God is a masterful communicator and he communicates in a way that is effective
for all of us.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I just have a blunt personality and that's how it goes for me.
But so if I pass that along to you know that I love you.
And that's just a little bit of my gruffness that I got going on.
But that's the thing is like he has authority and he's with us when we're going and making
disciples.
Right.
So last week we were here and we were having a care group at your house, right?
Small group.
Yeah.
It was great.
Made for community.
Highly recommend it.
If your church doesn't do one, start one.
Right.
You're made for community.
Yeah.
And so, but James wanted, he wanted to have another pancake.
Right.
And he said, I want to have another pancake and he's like, so he comes up and he says,
can you ask Miss Lindsay if I can have a pancake?
Right.
And I said, and I said, okay, why don't you go ask her and I'll be with you.
Uh huh.
Surely I am with you.
Yeah.
Sometimes I think we're that scared four year old boy asking for another pancake, but don't
worry daddy's right behind us.
Yeah.
Right.
Mm hmm.
Daddy is right behind us and he is the authority.
He's the power, but hey man, he's raising sons.
He's raising daughters.
Yeah.
And we gotta go.
Yeah.
So good.
Oh, so good.
So next week we're going to be diving into the fall, correct?
Yeah.
So next week we want to talk about a couple of things that are going on in the fall that
I think that we misunderstand.
I'm going to touch on a few things on the, on the tree of Good and Evil.
Yeah.
But then specifically after that, we're going to talk about the fall, but we're also going
to talk about Cain and Abel.
Yeah.
So the reason we're going to talk about these together is we want to talk about a few things
that I think that we're missing in how we live our Christian life today because we've
heard these things taught so many times from a doctrinal lens that we forget to see them
from a contextual and relationship lens.
Yeah.
So that's going to be next week.
Everything we say here, we hope it drives you further into a deeper relationship with
God and further into bringing Christ to your community.
Yeah.
In a place of love and in a place of understanding scripture from context.
Yeah.
So go read the Bible, read their history, talk to God, do what he says and go and love
people well.
Yeah.
There will be an email link at the bottom in the show description.
So if you want to send us questions or just write us nasty emails, go for it.
We would love to hear from you.
Thank you so much for listening today.
We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we hope that you got something out of it.
If you have any questions, please contact us at loveandcontext.gmail.com.
You can also follow us on Instagram and message us through there.
Instagram is love and context.
Again, loveandcontext.gmail.com or Instagram are the two ways to get ahold of us if you
would like.
Thank you once again.
We really appreciate you being here.
God bless.