Welcome to Season 3 of Love & Context. This season,
we're exploring the life of Jesus step -by -step
and uncovering what His story teaches us about
loving God and others. Here on Love & Context,
we're all about having real conversations about
how to live out that love in practical, everyday
ways, and understanding the Bible in its full
context. We're so glad you're here. Let's dive
into Season 3 of Love & Context. Welcome back
to the Love and Context podcast. I am your host,
Ben, and we are once again joined by our good
friend, Les Kronk. Good to be here. Thank you
for being here again. You have taken a break
out of your incredibly busy schedule of retirement.
Yes, retirement is quite busy, actually. We've
said this a bunch, but I think literally every
person I've talked to who retires, they're like,
how did I get so busy now that I don't have work?
Yeah. Right? To me, it's like a 15 -year backlog
of projects that I wanted to get done. Just bouncing
around, hitting all of them at once. Yeah, you
were actually, you were telling me, and this
hopefully doesn't break anybody's illusion, but
on Easter Sunday, you actually painted because
we live in a place where it's not convenient
to paint often. It was a beautiful sunny day,
and I took advantage of that and got some outside
house painting. Yeah. Anybody who's ever painted
before knows that if you live in a rainforest,
it's not very cooperative for painting. That's
right. So if you have sun, you take advantage
of it. That's more retirement stuff, right? It
is. It is. That's good stuff. And I also have
more time to do this sort of thing. Yeah. Well,
we appreciate it. Every time you're on here,
people, you know, I've gotten multiple emails,
and they go, we really like it when Les is on.
All right. I was like, sweet. Not near as many
as they always say. They're like, man, we really
like listening to Sarah Harney. That mostly comes
from my wife. Yes. And I'm like, so you only
listen to the episodes where Sarah's on, so I
guess I'm just chopped liver here. You're just
chopped liver, yeah. That's right, from your
wife, really. Oh, man. Well, actually, your wife
was on, too. That was back in Women in Ministry.
Right, right. Yeah, that was fun. Good stuff.
So we're going through life of Jesus and going
into life of Jesus. It's really hard to talk
about the beginning of his ministry without talking
about John the Baptist. Correct. Right. John
the Baptist is kind of important in everything
that's going on here. Yes, he is. But before
we actually get into the text, I wanted to go
over a couple of things that I think are really
interesting to talk about before we read these
and kind of take our perspectives from it. Because
we're going to be, if you are listening and you
want to read the Bible yourself, it is going
to be coming out in Matthew 3, Mark 1, and Luke
3. Those are the beginning of the three places.
And then also when we talk about Jesus' baptism,
we're going to be in Matthew 3, Mark 1, 9 -11,
and Luke 3, 21 -22. So those are the places we're
going to be. The first thing I want to talk about
is what they call mikvah. We call it baptism.
They call it mikvah in Hebrew. It's basically
the ablutions. Ablutions? What do they call it
when you do something with water? Ablutions?
Ablutions, yeah. Yeah. Where is my dictionary
when I need it? Right. It's a ritual washing,
and that's where the mikvah comes in. That's
what mikvah means. It's ritual washing. Purification
practice in Torah. So in Leviticus 15, if you
have a bodily discharge, you take a mikvah. Right.
So after you're you're allowed to come back into
the community, bodily discharge might be well
to be a little bit gross. You might have the
flu or diarrhea. OK. Right. Right. And there's
no telling like why you're sick. And so they
have you separate from the community. And once
you're better, you take a mikvah. Yeah. And then
you come back and join everybody else and you're
clean. Right. So the the idea has this. purifying
from the sickness that came before. You also
take a mikvah in Numbers 19 if you have contact
with a dead body. All right. Probably a good
idea. Sure, sure. One of the things we don't
think about when we think about mikvahs is these
instructions come in Torah, which is when they're
in the middle of the desert where there's not
a lot of water. Right. So if they're telling
you to go and bathe your whole body, It's significant,
right? There's something significant going on.
And I would think that sickness and contact with
a dead body, good reasons to bathe yourself.
Good reasons. Good reasons to bathe yourself.
But the whole symbolism behind it is that you're
cleansing from impurity and you're preparing
to participate in worship and community life.
So you're rejoining community, right? So baptism
is about like washing something that shouldn't
be there and then rejoining what you were meant
to be. Later, the mikvah, the ritual bath was
used when somebody converted to Judaism. And
it's like a public declaration of I was one way
and I'm choosing to be another. This is a public
declaration that I'm actually going a different
direction. Right. And it actually required flowing
or living water. So if I say living water, do
you know what I mean? So it's not water with
microbes in it. Right, right. Put it that way.
Not that kind of living, right? Yeah. What I
would think of... Moving water. Yeah. Well, it's
specifically water that comes from heaven or
it's provided by God. So it would be rainfall.
All right. Or it would be a well. Or it would
be, so it wouldn't be like a lake. A lake wouldn't
necessarily be considered that because it's,
I mean, obviously we know science. All these
waters come from different places that come from
the clouds and different ways. But in Jewish
thinking, it's living water is water that comes
from God. So it's water that you draw from the
ground. It's water that falls from the sky. Those
are living waters, right? Which is really important
because Jesus is going to specify living waters.
multiple times in his ministry. He's going to
say, if you would come to me, I would have given
you water and it would bubble up streams of...
Living water from within you, right? Water from
God within you. Right. And so it's not just talking
about water. It's talking about a certain type
of water. And now in my head, first time I heard
living water, you know, I thought, you ever seen
those swamps in the bayou? Oh, yes. They have
all these things living in them. I was like,
well, that's living water right there. It's alive.
It's alive. And I'm not getting in it. No, not
a chance. I actually got... Traumatized by a
camera what movie it was but they get in the
swampy water and they come out and the guy has
leeches Like I'm like very nervous about leech
infested water now So that is, that's the kind
of idea of baptism. Okay. And in the day, specifically
Jesus's day, taking a mikvah was largely a declaration
of I was doing something wrong. So it was tied
with repentance, right? Repentance being a word
in Hebrew, it's shuva. Okay. It means to return.
I mean, the best way I can kind of like illustrate
it in American ideas is imagine that you're walking
on a cement pathway and you veer off into the
yard. Yeah. Shuvah is coming back to the path
that you're meant to walk. Right. So you veered
off and you shuvahed. Right. And the mikvah takes
place when you shuvah back to your path. Right.
If you walked off the cement into the mud and
came back out, you had to wash off. Yeah. And
so like the mikvah says, it says I was off the
path and I'm returning to my design. Okay. Right.
This design being this instructions in Torah
where God says you're created for a purpose.
You're created with an identity. The Jewish people
specifically, you are my treasured possession
and you're supposed to put this thing on display
for the entire world. So when they're choosing
to make a commitment and follow after something,
they would mikvah. And so they would repent.
They would come back to their design and they
would go and proceed with their design. And the
mikvah was a public declaration that I recognize
my original design. I'm going to go walk in it.
Right. Right. So with Jesus, he hadn't strayed
from the path. Correct. Yeah, we're going to
get in there in a second. Don't jump ahead of
me. All right, all right. Jesus' baptism is there.
All right, all right. Yeah, we're talking about
that later. All right. Yeah. We'll work up to
it. Well, and I mean, you caught it, though,
because John actually notices that. Yeah. He's
like, why would I baptize you? Right. Why? Why
would I baptize you? So the last thing I want
to talk about is John the Baptist himself. There
is a significant scholarship around the idea
that John the Baptist wasn't, first of all, a
Baptist. I'm sorry. I probably blew somebody's
mind there. They, it's actually, they call him
John the Baptist because he was a baptizer. He
baptized a lot of people. And so it actually
has nothing to do with the denomination of Baptist,
except that the Baptist, the reason they were
called that is because they fully emerged people
originally. Right. I mean, there's, there's more
reasons, but that was, that is a reason. And
so John. There is there's five different reactions
to the silent years post Malachi. Right. Five
major reactions. There's more, but there's five
major ones. We know them as the Pharisees, the
Sadducees, the Herodians, the Zealots. And then
there's a fifth one called the Essenes. Yeah.
If you are familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls,
the Essenes are the ones who are responsible
for that. Um, so the Essenes, they lived in a,
in a desert compound off of Israel or off of
Jerusalem called Qumran, right? So that's where
they find that all these caves, they found them
in Qumran. And, uh, the Essenes believed that
basically the world was going downhill very quickly.
And so they secluded themselves off from society
and devoted themselves to preservation of the
word of God. And it was, and it's an incredibly
rigorous practice, but they believe like, Hey,
you know, like, God's coming back. He's going
to judge the world. This is, by the way, represented
in John saying the ax is at the base of the tree.
Base of the tree. Right? This is very Essene
theology. It's like, hey, we strayed so far.
Judgment is coming. You need to be holy. You
need to walk in a correct way. You need to preserve
Torah. You need to put Torah on display. You
need to seclude yourself from all the things
that influence you, a .k .a. Rome. Right? Right.
And so this is a lot of Essene theology. Second
temple period, they're known for their strict
purity laws and living, like I said, often in
the desert. One of the things that they are also
known for is frequent ritual washing to maintain
purity and prepare for divine encounters. So
because you're trying to remain pure, you would
mikvah on a regular basis in order to prepare
yourself to be connecting with God, right? There's
an emphasis on communal purity. group being pure
and separation from the corruption of the world,
AKA Rome, AKA the Sadducees, AKA anybody who's
compromising their faith. Right. Right. Um, so
John has a crazy wilderness lifestyle and he
calls for repentance, echoing Essene practice.
And they both emphasize preparation for the divine
intervention and the coming kingdom of God. Um,
however, one of the things that I wanted to point
out here is that John's baptism was inclusive
in that it was open to all who would repent.
Right. So while Essene practices were exclusive,
focused on their own community. So John would
have been an outlier even in his own community.
But there's a lot about his message that is Essene
influenced. And in the show notes, I'm probably
going to link a Bema episode in the silent years.
Ronnie Solomon is talking about the five different
responses to actually there's a bunch of episodes,
but five different responses to of Judaism to
the silent years. Each one has a piece that completely
nails what God's asking for. And each one has
a piece where they really struggle with what
God's asking for. Okay. And so the five responses,
none of them completely nail what Jesus is going
to do. And that's why all five sects of Judaism
are incredibly frustrated with Jesus. Oh. Because
he doesn't, you know, and yeah, for example,
the zealots are like, well, you're going to go
and destroy Rome. Right. Right. The Pharisees
are like, Hey, you're going to force everybody
to observe Torah. Yes. But you're missing the
heart of Torah. Right. Or, you know, the Sadducees
are like, well, you're going to make the temple
great. Yes. But the temple is actually going
to be dwelling within people. So they're, they're
all like struggling with like his, his reality.
And plus a lot of other things with the Sadducees.
I'm not going to get into their temple corruption,
but Jesus comes and steps into a place where
there is diverse opinion on scriptural issues.
Okay. I wonder if that has any relevance for
today. Just a little bit, just a little bit.
All right. So with that said, with all those
things being put in perspective, I'm going to
start reading in Matthew 3, 1 through 12. So
in those days, this is after Jesus had returned
from Nazareth or returned to Nazareth after Herod
died. In those days, John the Baptist. preaching
in the wilderness of Judea and saying, repent
Shiva for the kingdom of heaven has come near.
This is who, uh, this is who was, sorry, I can
read. This is he who has spoken of through the
prophet Isaiah, a voice of one calling in the
wilderness, prepare the way for the Lord, make
straight paths for him. John's clothes were made
of camel hair and he had a leather belt around
his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.
People went out to, people went out to him from
Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region
of jordan confessing their sins they were baptized
they were mikved right by him in the jordan river
but when he saw many of the pharisees and sadducees
coming to where he was baptizing remember being
an essene he said to them you brood of vipers
We've got tons of chill here. Who warned you
to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit
in keeping with repentance and do not think you
can say to yourself, we have Abraham as our father.
I tell you that out of these stones, God can
raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already
at the root of the tree and every tree that does
not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown
into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance,
but after me comes one who is more powerful than
I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He
will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will
clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat
into the barns and burning up the chaff with
unquenchable fire. I don't know if you hear some
Essene theology in there. Yeah, for sure. Right?
Now, one of the things we will talk about in
a second. He's not wrong. A lot of those things
come to pass. He is preparing a way. Yes, he
is. He's also preparing a way in the way that
he thinks it should be done. Okay. Right. Uh,
he's like, he's like, Oh, you don't know. Like
that, that axis here, it's, it's coming for you.
And, uh, and he says, you know, Jesus is coming.
He's got his winnowing fork. He didn't just,
of course, didn't call him Jesus, but he says,
this guy is coming. He's got his winnowing fork
and he's going to gather his wheat and everything
else. He's going to burn up. Yeah. Okay. The
problem with that is that actually isn't what
Jesus ends up preaching. Correct. In fact, there's
a parable that Jesus ends up preaching about,
there's a person who has wheat, and then somebody
goes and sows tares in among the wheat. Ah, yeah.
Right? And the angels come and they say, hey,
should we just go and uproot the tares? Because
somebody came in and sowed a bunch of tares out
here. He says, no, because if you do, you're
going to rip up the wheat. let them grow up.
And when everything is done, we'll separate the,
the wheat from the tares and I'll take the wheat
home and we'll burn the, during the tares. Well,
that's very different. Yeah. That's a very different
attitude. In fact, that's mostly an attitude
of grace. It really is. Now, eventually as things
going to get burned and separated. Yes. Because
they're not wheat. Yeah. Right. They're going
to a separate place because they're not wheat.
Correct. I think I gave you, let's read what
he has to say in Mark. Now, remember, Mark being
a largely written to a Roman audience, starting
in verse, oh, wow, it's right off the top. Right
in verse one. Yeah. The beginning of the good
news about Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of God,
as it is written in Isaiah the prophet, I will
send my messenger ahead of you who will prepare
your way, a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
prepare the way of the Lord, make straight paths
for him. And so John the Baptist appeared in
the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance
for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean
countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went
out to him. That's quite a few. That's a lot.
Yeah. Confessing their sins, they were baptized
by him in the Jordan River. John wore clothing
made of camel hair with leather belt around his
waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. And
this was his message. After me comes one more
powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals
I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize
you with water, but he will baptize you with
the Holy Spirit. So that's two tellings in a
row where they've mentioned his appearance. Do
you know why camel hair and leather belt? No,
I don't. Do you know any figure in the Old Testament
who dressed in similar attire? I'm saying that's
probably Elijah. It's Elijah. Yeah. Yeah. Which
also is why they're confused later. They're like,
hey, are you Elijah? Right. Right. Are you Elijah,
you know, to come? And so he's similar to Elijah
because he comes to Ahab and he pronounces judgment
on Israel. Right. John is kind of doing a little
bit of theater here, right? He's putting on camel
hair and the leather belt and he's coming and
also pronouncing judgment on Israel, right? That
you need to repent. You need to come back. You
need to stop serving Baal, right? In the case
of Elijah, you need to stop serving yourselves
and come back and serve the Lord. The locusts
and wild honey actually has to do, the wild honey
is considered pure because it's wild, right?
It's out in nature. It's God provided. So that's
where that... comes from. That's why it's a very
Essene thing to do. So that's another connected
thing. So anybody who's listening, they're like,
why does this keep coming up? Right, exactly.
I was thinking that as I'm reading this. Why
is that important? Yeah, and so that is a very
Essene theology type of thing that he brings
up. I also do love, by the way, we talked in
our first episode of this season that Mark...
uh, is very much Roman. So it's like this happened,
then this happened, then this happened. And I
love that the gospel of Mark starts off and it's
like, John the Baptist, you know, it's like,
no, no preamble, no preamble. We're talking just,
uh, just what happens straight up. So he jumps
right into it. All right. So let's go to the,
to the third one here. This is Luke three, one
through 20. So this one is a little bit longer.
Now remember Luke written from the conversation
of about 500 witnesses, 500 plus witnesses about
this time. In the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius
Caesar, much more specific. Yeah. You know, like
it's not a, then this happened. Right. He's like
in the 15th year when Pontius Pilate was governor
of Judea, Herod, Herod was Tetrarch of Galilee,
his brother, Philip Tetrarch of Ituria and Trachonius
and Lysanias Tetrarch of Abilene. So he's very
specific. Right. During the high priesthood of
Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John,
son of Zechariah in the wilderness. He went to
all the country around the Jordan, preaching
a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of
sins. Okay. I want to pause right here really
quick. He preached a returning to the path for
the things that you've done that have strayed
you. Okay. Okay. I want you to like have this
imagery. Yes. Sin is absolutely something that
you do that violates God's command, but it's
straying from this path and you're being called
to return to your path. And I want this imagery
to be built into our head when we're talking
about Jesus, because Jesus is going to repeatedly
talk about the fact that God wants you on his
path. Right. That sin is easy to fix. And if
it wasn't easy to fix, he's going to go and take
all of sin, all of enmity, all of death and take
it to the cross so that we're done with it forever.
Right. Now, I think what some people might have
heard me said is sin is not a big deal. Yeah.
It's not what I'm talking about. Nope. Not at
all. It's not difficult for God to deal with.
Right. What he wants you to do is come back.
Correct. I was actually, I had this conversation.
So my son has been struggling a little bit at
school. Okay. because he's six years old and
the frontal cortex is developing. And so like
he's feeling his emotions slower than his reasoning
is catching up, right? So he has these really
big emotions and he does a lot of things. And
so he's like, well, I don't understand why this.
And I said, I understand. I was like, the problem
isn't what you did. It's that you don't understand
why it was wrong. Okay. And that's more what
I'm concerned about. What you did I can fix easy
like if he gets upset he tosses something across
the room break something I can fix that easily
like you know as well I do replacing a plate
not a problem. No fixing a broken toy not a problem,
right? But the behavior behind the toy that's
is a much bigger issue. Yep, like him understanding
like Why how that makes people around him feel
empathizing with people understanding how it's
affecting his relationship with his mom and with
me and with his teachers It's a much bigger deal
much bigger deal. Yep Um, all right, it's coming
back in here as it is written, continuing verse
four, as it is written in the book of, in the
words of Isaiah, the prophet, a voice of one
calling in the wilderness prepared for the way
for the Lord, make straight paths for him. Every
valley shall be filled in every mountain shall
and hill shall be made low. The crooked roads
shall become straight. The rough ways smooth
and all of all people will see God's salvation.
You think that's interesting by the way that,
uh, He quotes from Isaiah much longer, like a
much bigger quote. He does. It was a bigger quote.
Yeah. It feels like one of the things we talk
about Luke is that Luke is kind of talking to
the universal world about how Jesus is applying
to all of them. To everybody. Right? And so it
makes sense when he's talking about every hill
is filled in. Every one. Every valley is filled
in. Every mountain is made low. All the paths
are made straight. Yeah. Right? Um, so then he
turned to the crowds who were being baptized
by him. Okay. Turn to the crowds in this one,
not to the Sadducees and the, and the Pharisees.
You brood of vipers who warned you to flee from
the coming wrath, produce fruit in keeping with
repentance and do not begin to say to yourselves,
we have Abraham as our father. For I tell you
that out of these stones, God can raise up children
for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of
the trees and every tree that does not produce
good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the
fire. What should we do then? The crowd asked.
John answered, anyone who has two shirts should
share with the one who has none. Anyone who has
food should do the same. Even tax collectors,
even tax collectors, by the way, I just love
it when they talk about tax collectors. Even
tax collectors came to be baptized. Teacher,
they asked, what should we do? Don't collect
any more than you are required to, he told them.
Then some soldiers asked him, what should we
do? He replied, don't extort money and don't
accuse people falsely. Be content with your pay.
Okay, pause right there. So this is a little
bit different. It's once again a lot longer.
And Luke really talking about the universal nature
because both Mark and Matthew are going to be
speaking to Jewish people, but in a Roman setting
versus a Jewish setting. Right. You hear him
talking to the religious people first. Don't
think that because you're a son of Abraham, you're
going to be okay. Right. Right. Your heritage
doesn't justify you. Correct. God expects you
to uphold Torah. Yeah. The fact that you're just
from Abraham's lineage doesn't. Doesn't exempt
you from anything else. Yeah. So religious leaders,
this is the conversation for you. Tax collectors,
those people on the outside, you betrayers of
your culture and your people. Yep. They come
and they ask, what should I do? Soldiers, which
would mean Romans, right? Romans. They come and
ask, what should we do? Yeah. And John gives
them instructions too. Correct. So we can definitely
see in Luke, he's opening this up and it's likely
all of these conversations happened, but each
gospel specifies a specific part because they're
telling a different story. Right. Right. Luke
is really trying to open it up to the entire
world and what Jesus is doing through everyone
and also doing the accounts of the witnesses.
Yep. Let's see here. Continuing in verse 15,
There's that Essene thing again, right? His winnowing
fork is in his hands to clear his threshing floor
and to gather the wheat into his barn. But he
will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
And with many other words, John extorted the
people and proclaimed the good news to them.
But when John rebuked Herod the Tetrarch because
of his marriage to Herodias, his brother's wife,
and all the other evil things he had done, Herod
added this to them all. He locked John up in
prison. So, one of the things that, there's a
couple of things I want to talk about here is
sometimes people look at differences in the Gospels
and they think that they're mistakes. There are
mistakes in the way that people are reporting
it. And one of the reasons we went through on
the first episode and talked about what is a
gospel, what is the perspective of the gospel?
How is history done in ancient Near East is to
point out that these are written in such a way
on purpose. And just because they don't all share
the exact same details doesn't mean they're not
talking about the same event. Now, the other
part of that that you also need to think about,
like, because I read enough of I read a number
of books by like critical scholars, too, is that
John is preaching for months. Right. We just
read like four paragraphs that emphasize what
he talked about for like months. Months of time.
Right. When did he say what? Sometime in that
time. Correct. Right? The witnesses remember
him saying this at some point. At some point,
some soldiers asked him this question. Yeah.
Was it all the same day, same moment? Maybe.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe not. I mean, there's
so much that happens in months. Yeah. And we
assume, because it's written in the same time
period, that we're talking about the exact same
moment. Even differences in the way the parable
is being told. Jesus might tell the same parable
16 times. Yeah. And it's likely that he told
the same parable when he went to different towns
over and over again, right? Because it's a universal
truth. And he probably shifted it a little for
each town, right? Sure. Speaking to the audience
that he had. So the other piece that I want to
talk about here, which I think is really important
to hear, is this is going to be a little bit
of a thought experiment. And so hopefully the
listeners are on board for it. Eschatology is
the study of end times. End times, yeah. So prior
to the time of Jesus, most Jews had a two -part
eschatology. Okay. There was the kingdom that
was here and there was a kingdom that was to
come and those were overlapping in one moment.
And when the new kingdom came, the old one passed
away and the new one went forward. Okay. Right.
So in other words, Messiah would come, Rome is
done, Israel goes and they just rule all. Yep.
Right. That's oversimplification. So if historians
listen, they're like, well, that's not, I know.
All right. This is oversimplification. And, and
so John seems to believe this. He says the winnowing
fork is in his hand. Okay. Right. And so is it
true that at some point there's going to be a
winnowing fork and there's going to be chaff
that are balanced out? Yes. A hundred percent.
Yeah. Except Jesus comes and he introduces what
I'm going to call a three -part eschatology.
He says there is a kingdom that is coming. There
is going to be institution of a reign and it's
going to start a second period where the kingdom
is now here and it's going everywhere throughout
the world. And there will be a future point when
it is everywhere. Right. And we live in this
space in between, which is going to be echoed
through Paul's teaching. It's going to be echoed
into revelation because revelation is going to
be talking about the culmination of the kingdom.
But also, what does it mean to live until the
culmination of the kingdom? Right. And so it's
one of the reasons John and a lot of the other
religious leaders really struggle with him, too,
because they're like, OK, you're Messiah. But
when you come, everything's supposed to change.
Right. No. That's their belief. That's their
belief. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, yes, but not
really. Like, let me try to explain it to you
in a picture form, you know? And so he starts
telling these parables. So those three talks
through John the Baptist, like just his opening
salvo is what I'm going to call it. What do you
think about those? Do you have any thoughts from
those three different times? Well, and I really
appreciate your explanation of both baptism and
the beginning of John because it helps set the
foundation and understanding of what John was
doing. But you're right. I mean, John was what
about? Six months older than Jesus age wise.
So and this is introducing Jesus's ministry when
Jesus is about 30. So John had had a lot of years
to work up to this and a lot of training and,
you know, a lot of thought process and motivation
from the Lord to be here. So it's helpful to
understand all that context. And John's expectations
are built on the theology that he knew. And so
the theology of. We're here and we're going to
be here. It's coming and look out. Well, and
Jesus doesn't disagree with all of his theology
because you remember John's proclamation, repent
for the kingdom of heaven has come near. Right.
That's actually Jesus's gospel. By the way, this
is a little side note. I have had conversation
with Christians and they say, well, we need to
preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's like,
yeah. Do you know what that is? They're like,
yeah, Jesus came to save sinners. It's like,
no, no, that's the realization of the gospel
of Jesus Christ. That's right. what is his gospel
that he preached? The kingdom of heaven is here.
Kingdom of heaven is here. Come back. Yeah. Come
back. Come home. Yep. Get on the path. Yep. Time
to get on this path and go after it. Like, cause
the kingdom of heaven is here. And then he goes
and through his life, death, burial, and resurrection,
he makes it so that now the kingdom of heaven
is no longer something that you interact with,
but something that dwells within you. Yeah. Right.
There is no separation between heaven and earth
now because we become the temple, this place
where heaven and earth intersect. Right. Which
is very similar to what the prophets are going
to say. They're going to write the Torah on your
heart. Yeah. And the Torah is no longer going
to, I'm going to borrow some language from Paul
in the future. The Torah is no longer going to
reveal the sin in your life, but the Torah is
actually going to bring out the goodness of God
in your life. Yeah. Because now the spirit is
going to enable you to no longer be bound by
the past. Right. No longer be bound by your fear,
no longer bound by your mistakes, but you can
actually live into what God has always wanted
you to do. You know, and that really goes back
to what you were talking about and trying to
explain that sin isn't simple, but the solution
to sin. God has made simple for us. Yeah. It's,
it's, there's this conversation I've had and,
and, um, it makes people kind of uncomfortable.
So we'll see how it goes on the podcast. We might
get some emails. That's always possible. It happens.
Um, there is, there's a guy and I forget what
his, uh, he's a, he's a reformed foreign person
and we love him because he sends me messages
periodically and I love him being on here, but
this might be for you, buddy. Um, anyways, uh,
we're, uh, I asked people, I said, why did Jesus
have to die? Right? I was trying to ask a very
simple question. They said, well, because we
need the forgiveness of sins. To which my next
question is, so are you telling me that God was
incapable of forgiving sins unless Jesus died?
Tough question. And because we have said these
things so many times, and by the way, I believe
that Jesus does kill sin. He does kill death.
He takes it to the grave and sends it to hell.
Right. Like that's what happens with sin and
death. And he rises so that we can have new life
in him. But there's no indication in the Old
Testament that God is incapable of forgiving
sins. Right. He removes things from the east
to the west. He blots out iniquity. Right. So
he is capable of forgiving sin. So then what
is the issue? Well, the writers of Hebrews says
something is wrong with us. fundamentally that
even when we're forgiven, we're still coming
back to our broken state over and over again.
Sin actually has, it is a power to once again,
quote from Paul, it has power over us. And that
power is actually broken through Jesus Christ.
Paul is actually going to talk about in Ephesians
that, that on the cross, it's not just Jesus.
That is, that is like what's happening here,
but it is sin and death that are being punished
and crucified. Okay. Right. Jesus is, is holding
these things, but it's actually sin and death
that are going. And then he, he is raised to
life through God, the father. Right. And then
because of that, because we cast our identity
onto the lamb of God in the same way than in
Leviticus, they cast their identities onto these
animals. We are now in Christ. Yep. We're a new
creation. Yeah. The old is gone and the new has
passed away. And now. These things that used
to just bring out condemnation in our life, because
that's what the Torah did. It revealed that,
oh, by the way, you're not doing what God told
you to do. Right. Ah, dang it. You know, now
those very things that used to bring condemnation,
we actually live into and bring life and produce
fruit and bring love and joy and peace and patience
and kindness and goodness and faithfulness and
gentleness and self -control and the spirit of
God. And we do, we have prophetic words and miracles
and. People pass from death to life on a regular
basis because of the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Yes. And we trust that his work was sufficient.
Yep. We do. That he did it all. John doesn't
get that. No, he doesn't. And that's what my
point is. From his religious teaching standpoint,
he doesn't see that depth of it. Yeah. Now, to
be fair, I think a lot of us struggle with it
too. And by the way, if anything I said in there
you're uncomfortable with, that's okay. We can
just disagree on that. It is a, I'm going to
say, ever -widening understanding of what God
did for us. It's a challenge for our human minds
to grasp it, I think, is part of that. We want
to come up with some different thoughts and expectations
or explanations for that because we just can't
grasp the power of God's grace in forgiveness.
Yeah. Well, and one of the things that I've made
very clear on the podcast over and over again
is that the crucifixion of Jesus and the resurrection
of Jesus are pivotal moments in history, and
they're incredibly important. Yes. Because they
are the invitation into a different life. Yep.
And you cannot walk into a house and engage in
house life without a door. Without a door. Right?
Without a door, you can't get in there. Right?
And the door is so important. If that door is
not open, then you are outside living in the
woods. Yeah. Which is, there are probably people
who like living in the woods, but I'm not one
of them. Right. I like my bed. I like my stove.
If I'm going to live in the woods, I at least
want a cabin to live in. Yeah, exactly. So. Any
other thoughts from John the Baptist here so
far? Just the... And trying to figure out how
you could eat locusts every day. That's definitely
crunchy. I get the honey, but the crunchy locusts,
I mean, I've... I mean, maybe he's like dipping
the locusts in the honey. Something like that.
I don't know. But obviously there was a purpose
for that. You know, the problem is he's never
had cake. If he had cake, it would have been
much more difficult. It would have been more
difficult. If that's all you've had, I guess
you understand that's all you got. Oh, man. It's
so good. All right. So you asked a question about
Jesus earlier. We're at that point. point now,
Jesus's baptism. Yeah. Um, the baptism that John
was doing was for the repentance of sin. Jesus
led a sinful life. Yeah. And so he wasn't, you
know, he, he, he didn't need that level of repentance
and that baptism for that reason. Yeah. So that
is, uh, so let's go to Matthew. I'm going to
choose Matthew because he's the most Jewish of
the, of the, um, gospels. Okay. And let's actually
read that account really quick here. So it's
in Matthew. 3, 13 through 17. Okay. So this picks
up. He says, hey, the guy coming after me, he's
going to winnow you out and burn you in fire.
Okay. Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan
to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter
him saying, I need to be baptized by you. And
do you come to me? Jesus replied, let it be so
now for it is proper for us to do this to fulfill
all righteousness. Then John consented. As soon
as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the
water at the moment heaven was opened and he
saw the spirit of God descending like a dove
and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven
said, this is my son whom I love with him. I
am well pleased. Okay. So this is also why it's
important to understand what a mikvah is and
what it isn't. Okay. So he is baptizing for the
forgiveness of sins. Jesus doesn't have any sin
to be forgiven. Right. But he is making a public
declaration of a ministry because that is another
portion of why people would do a mikvah. If they're
being called into something they're stepping
into. For example, if you are what happens when
you convert to Judaism, but also when you become
a rabbi, when you become a teacher, a sage, you
would also do mikvah. And it's not necessarily
about it's not necessarily about sin, but about
it's almost like you would think of like public
declaration. I'm now going to do this. Right.
And so Jesus comes to John and he's like, well,
I should not be baptizing you because you're
greater than me. Because this conversation with
Jesus isn't about the sin. No. Right? This conversation
with Jesus there is not about sin. No, it's about
John recognizing who he is. He's about recognizing
who has the greater authority. Yes. Right? And
so you would be baptized into, like, if you're
going to step into a ministry by the greater
party. And then Jesus says, he's like, no, we're
going to do this so that we're following proper
channels. Yeah. We're doing this right. And just
to put an exclamation point on everything that's
going on there. Heaven literally tears open.
The word here is actually tears open. Like, uh,
it's very similar. It's the same word. I believe
someone can fact check me on this and that's
okay if I'm wrong. I believe it's the same word
that at Jesus's death where the curtain is torn.
The curtain is torn. Yeah. It's, it's, it's violent
ripping that the, the, uh, the heavens rip open,
the spirit descends and it rests on him. Yeah.
And a voice says, this is my son whom I love.
And I'm all pleased. Got the Trinity at play
right there. Yeah. You got, you got God, the
father declaring Jesus, the spoken word there
receiving empowered by the Holy spirit. And he's
going to go and spend 40 days in the desert before
he goes and has a conversation with the devil,
which is next week's topic. Right. But I think
we connect those because there's like oh well
he's baptizing forgiveness of sin So Jesus is
coming and getting baptism for forgiveness of
sins, but there's a shift there He is baptizing
for the forgiveness of sins, but Jesus comes
and recognizes the the I'm gonna say the The
gospel that John is preaching. Okay repent for
the kingdom of heaven is here And he is starting
his public ministry. And so he goes and is baptized
by John to go and then walk in this gospel. Right?
And some people are going to be uncomfortable.
They're like, son of God doesn't have to blah,
blah, blah, blah. And it's like, okay, but Jesus
repeatedly puts himself below people. He does.
All throughout the gospel. He places himself
underneath people and places them at their authority,
at their behest. Not because he has to, but because
he actually identifies with humanity and all
of our weakness. Right. And all of our powerlessness.
I mean, we're talking about literally God emptying
himself so that he can be human. Yeah. Right.
And so he can actually experience. the same things
that we experience and show us what Torah was
always supposed to look like. The example that
he sets in in the power of humility is is a long
message in itself. But because he did that, he
was the son of God. And yet he walked on earth
with a humility that that didn't usurp anybody
or any system. He preached. He followed that
process very well and demonstrated it was just
amazing. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And but just
just and I'll have you kind of just comment on
these as I go through them. But there's a few
few connections into the Old Testament about
what's going on in the water, too, that are not
necessarily service connections or they're a
little bit deeper. So the first thing is we it's
been quoted multiple times, but says a voice
of one calling in the wilderness. Prepare the
way for the Lord. Make straight in the desert
the highway for our God. Right. So this is what
John is doing. And so when Jesus comes and is
baptized by John, he's actually recognizing that
John is the forerunner. Right. And he's stepping
into what's being prepared for him. Right. So
that's that's number one. The second thing is
in Isaiah 42, one, it says, here is my servant.
Now, in that time talking about Israel, but Jesus
stepping in as a Jewish Messiah. Right. Right.
Whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight.
I will put my spirit on him. And he will bring
justice to the nations. Okay. Okay. So this is
once again, if he doesn't actually go into the
waters and the spirit doesn't come down and rest,
then people aren't necessarily going to see this
image. Right. In Isaiah 11, 2, the spirit of
the Lord will rest on him. The spirit of wisdom
and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and
of might, the spirit of knowledge and of fear
of the Lord. Right. In Luke 4, 18, Jesus actually
quotes this. He says, the spirit of the sovereign
Lord is on. Me. How do they know? They all watched
him get baptized. They watched him get baptized.
Because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim
euangelion, good news, to the poor. And then
the last thing is, water has actually been a
massive theme throughout the Bible. If you go
back to Genesis 6 -9, the flood actually cleanses...
All the earth, right? For this new thing that's
about to happen. There is a new creation. There's
a new thing happening. So Jesus is going to be
stepping into that. If you talk about the Red
Sea parting in Exodus, they walk through on dry
land and the water crashes and it's the start
of a new identity for Israel. In the Levitical
washings, when they actually first go to do the
things that they're supposed to do, Aaron, the
priesthood, they have to be ritually purified.
Purified. Right? Not because they're wicked,
but because they're stepping into a role. Right.
Like they're stepping into this role that they're
going to actually be stepping and doing what
God has called them to be. There's also like
this theme that's been going on of like anointing.
And so like the spirit, by the way, when it comes
and rests on him is very similar to how I'm quote
from 1 Samuel 16, 13. Samuel took the horn of
oil and anointed him in the presence of the brothers.
And from that day, the spirit of the Lord came
powerfully upon David. Like the spirit is coming
and it pours out on him and it rests on him.
And the spirit of God is with him. Right. This
is from Ezekiel. He says, I will sprinkle clean
water on you and you will be clean. I will cleanse
you from all your impurities and from all your
idols. I will give you a new heart and put a
new spirit in you. Zechariah 13 .1. On that day,
a fountain will be opened to the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to cleanse them
from sin and impurity. Okay. So all these things
connecting with water and the Jordan River and
everything that's going on here. Jesus is David.
Jesus is Moses. Jesus is Aaron. Jesus is... Torah.
Jesus is the suffering servant. Jesus is, he
is the Old Testament wrapped in flesh, right?
He is God incarnate. And he is also, the spirit
of God is on me. You've seen it. You heard the
voice from heaven, right? The heavens literally
tore open and you heard him say it. And now the
spirit of God is resting on me and I'm going
to go and follow into this kingdom mandate. The
way has been prepared by John, but now it's time
for me to step out and go and teach. The kingdom
of God. That was really the declaration of the
beginning of his ministry, and that's what he
did from then on forward. That's quite the way
to start your ministry. That's pretty significant.
The only way that you could probably top that
is literally coming back from the dead. That
happens. Yeah, no, that's a powerful statement,
and having the spirit come down and rest on him.
It didn't leave. It was it. It rested on him,
and he walked forward in that spirit. that really
was what was minister was about. If you don't
understand the old Testament, it's one of the
reasons we waited till season three to talk about
the life of Jesus. If you don't understand the
old Testament, a lot of these things are going
to be missed. Yeah. You're not going to recognize
like, like. understand like there's five different
responses, right? You're not going to necessarily
understand that John is stepping into the role
of Elijah. You're not going to recognize that
it's not just the one part of Isaiah, but it's
all these parts of Isaiah that are talking about
Israel. Right. But Jesus is stepping into that.
John 1, 1 opens up in the beginning was the word,
the logos, right? Or Torah for the Jews. Yeah.
Right. And Jesus is literally Torah made flesh.
Torah made flesh. Right? And so a lot of the
references, in fact, next week when Jesus has
conversations with the devil in the desert, he's
going to quote from Deuteronomy three times in
a row. Yeah. Ironically, because Deuteronomy
is the last book written before the Israelites
leave the desert. Got it. They're about to go
in and take over the land. And Moses is giving
them one last hurrah before they go into the
promised land, before they step into their identity.
Jesus has a conversation with the devil on three
different occasions. We're not going to get into
that. He quotes Deuteronomy. Gotcha. There's
a significant thing going on. That's the point.
Yeah, there's a point in that. Yeah. So he's
stepping in and redeeming Israel's past all throughout
his life. I find it interesting that there's
so much that happens in the wilderness. And in
this particular story we're talking about today,
John comes out of the wilderness. And as soon
as he and Jesus meet and Jesus gets baptized
in that process, Jesus goes into the wilderness.
And a lot happens out there. Yeah, it's really
interesting. So I'm not a Hebrew linguist, but
there are Hebrew as a pictorial language. And
so. it has, there's like word families is what
I want to call them. And, uh, in the word for
the voice of God, shepherd, wilderness, desert,
they're all part of the same word family. Okay.
Because you go to hear God's voice in the desert.
When, when you're being shepherded by God, you,
you find him in the, in the lonely places. Right.
Right. Like that's where you hear his voice.
So you think about. Moses is in the desert, right?
The Israelites are in the desert. Even Jesus
frequently throughout his ministry, it's going
to say he withdrew to lonely places. Lonely places.
Wildernesses to pray. Yeah. He went to where
the voice of God was to talk. Well, you get away
from all the noise. Yeah. It's just, those aren't
accidents. And again, if you understand like
Hebrew, you're like, oh, of course you did. Yeah.
Of course you did. Yeah. All right. Well, I just
looked at the time on the episode and based on
this, if we don't cut it, we may have the longest
episode to date. Yeah. So and I definitely feel
like I've done way too much talking. Well, actually,
Ben, I appreciate what you do talk. And I like
asking questions because you give so much of
the backstory and background and Jewish history
and cultural history that so much of this makes
sense. And that's why it's so powerful to do
that. And I and so it's not a problem that you
do that much talking. It's the it's the explanation
that you're providing is wonderful. Well, I will
take that compliment and then I'm going to throw
it back for I. trying to connect people to things
that have been written by people way smarter
than me. I'm always a big fan of like the Bama
podcast. I recommend checking them out. They've
got great stuff on the Jewish perspective. Tim
Mackey at the Bible Project has incredible content.
Kenneth Bailey about Jesus through Middle Eastern
eyes, Paul through Mediterranean eyes, great
books. Lois Verberg. She has a number of books
about following Jesus and the Jewish perspective.
There's so many, so many people that have great
content. Epic of Eden by Sandra Richter, Understanding
Covenants. I cannot. say how much I appreciate
all these people. And I never want to take credit
for the things that they have to say. So I always
want to make sure people know like, hey, there
are people who devote their life to this and
they do a great job. My hope is that we have
real conversations that connect people to go
and dig a little deeper. And that's what I appreciate.
You do dig deeper and you bring the rest of us
that opportunity to learn from that. And I really
appreciate that. Absolutely. I'll take it. I'll
take it. So fun little thing here. I'm going
to do a little shameless self -promotion here.
Perfect. All right, I'm going to do some shameless
self -promotion here because at this point when
you view this video, this has actually been released.
This is my book, and it is Beautiful Chaos, Infinite
Love, and it is writing my experience of raising
my son. My sons are six and four. the different
things that we go through through parenthood
and then using that as a, as a focal point to
then talk about maybe God as my father loves
me in a different way than I think. Yeah. He
treats, he thinks about me differently than I
think about myself because if there's nothing,
nothing else, having kids has really changed
the way that I view a way the father loves children.
Yes. Right. And, uh, so this is, you should be
able to find this on Amazon. We'll put it on
our link on our YouTube page and, uh, on our,
on our link page. Um, but you can go there and
you can order it. Uh, if you order the audio
book and you really don't like listening to my
voice, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah. Um,
I did not hire somebody to do it. I just did
the audio book myself. Um, but if you're also
in season three of the podcast, you're probably
okay with my voice at this point. I would think
so. Yeah. So there you go. Beautiful chaos, infinite
love is it's available now. Excellent. All right.
Uh, until then. Have good conversations. Love
people well. Bye. And that's a wrap for today's
episode of Love and Context. We hope this conversation
encouraged you and gave you fresh insights into
how we can better love God and others through
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