WEBVTT

00:00:02.600 --> 00:00:06.019
Welcome to Season 3 of Love & Context. This season,

00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:08.640
we're exploring the life of Jesus step -by -step

00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.140
and uncovering what His story teaches us about

00:00:11.140 --> 00:00:13.919
loving God and others. Here on Love & Context,

00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:16.059
we're all about having real conversations about

00:00:16.059 --> 00:00:18.140
how to live out that love in practical, everyday

00:00:18.140 --> 00:00:20.199
ways, and understanding the Bible in its full

00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:22.839
context. We're so glad you're here. Let's dive

00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:28.440
into Season 3 of Love & Context. Welcome back

00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:31.559
to the Love and Context podcast. Thank you for

00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:33.979
having me, Ben. We are welcoming in our good

00:00:33.979 --> 00:00:36.259
friend, our good friend. I say our, but I'm here

00:00:36.259 --> 00:00:39.859
by myself with you. So Les Kronk, he is going

00:00:39.859 --> 00:00:41.799
to be co -hosting with me today. That's going

00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:44.719
to be fun. Appreciate it. So we have not made

00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:47.299
it a secret at any point on the podcast that

00:00:47.299 --> 00:00:49.899
both Spencer and I have regular full -time jobs.

00:00:50.060 --> 00:00:52.399
This is a hobby and something that we love doing,

00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:56.380
but like most hobbies. It does not take precedent

00:00:56.380 --> 00:00:59.560
over regular work. Gotcha. And so Spencer is

00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.140
in a season that I'm just going to call overtime.

00:01:03.380 --> 00:01:07.500
So you actually recently. Retired. I did recently

00:01:07.500 --> 00:01:10.620
retire the first of the year and I'm enjoying

00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:14.480
the freedom to make my own schedule, which I'm

00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:16.379
keeping quite busy actually, but it's fun to

00:01:16.379 --> 00:01:18.079
have. That's actually what I hear from most people

00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:19.780
when they retire is they retire and then they

00:01:19.780 --> 00:01:22.120
go, oh, look how busy I am. How did I get all

00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:23.980
this done before I was retired? Well, so how

00:01:23.980 --> 00:01:26.359
long were you at your last career? 40 years.

00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:29.579
40 years. So there's 40 years of like things

00:01:29.579 --> 00:01:32.180
you wanted to do that you couldn't do. Correct.

00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.340
That you got to do before you get to the age

00:01:34.340 --> 00:01:35.620
where you can't do them anymore, right? Yep.

00:01:36.349 --> 00:01:39.049
Yeah, I've had projects stacked up in my garage.

00:01:39.250 --> 00:01:41.209
There was one particular furniture refinishing

00:01:41.209 --> 00:01:43.670
project that sat there for 12 years waiting for

00:01:43.670 --> 00:01:45.329
me to have time. I just finished it. It came

00:01:45.329 --> 00:01:47.049
out great. That's awesome. I just couldn't touch

00:01:47.049 --> 00:01:49.250
it until now, so it's nice. I got a little backlog

00:01:49.250 --> 00:01:51.489
I'm working through. Well, in those 40 years,

00:01:51.510 --> 00:01:53.129
you didn't have time to go on a podcast. No.

00:01:53.189 --> 00:01:55.109
Yeah, so now you have time to be on a podcast.

00:01:55.290 --> 00:01:57.689
Oh, I do, don't I? It'll be fun. All right, so

00:01:57.689 --> 00:02:00.090
we kind of informed you, but we were going through

00:02:00.090 --> 00:02:02.230
the life of Jesus this season. Obviously, first

00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:03.950
season, we were in Torah. We had you last year

00:02:03.950 --> 00:02:05.549
during Spiritual Gifts, and we talked about...

00:02:05.549 --> 00:02:07.950
prophecy and all these different things. But

00:02:07.950 --> 00:02:09.310
this year, we're going through the life of Jesus

00:02:09.310 --> 00:02:13.090
chronologically. And last week, though, technically,

00:02:13.169 --> 00:02:15.949
we recorded it after this episode. I'm spoiling.

00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:18.659
for people who assume that we do everything in

00:02:18.659 --> 00:02:21.259
order. Last week, you guys listened, we're talking

00:02:21.259 --> 00:02:24.979
about the visiting Magi, right? And so now we're

00:02:24.979 --> 00:02:26.099
going to be talking, we're going to be in Luke

00:02:26.099 --> 00:02:28.379
2, verses 41 through the end of the chapter.

00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:30.379
We're going to be talking about Jesus at the

00:02:30.379 --> 00:02:33.900
temple, right? It's an interesting story. So

00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:36.400
I'm going to read it first. If you are reading

00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:38.699
along, this is NIV. If you don't like NIV, that's

00:02:38.699 --> 00:02:41.159
fine, but I'm still going to read in NIV. So

00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.689
here we go. It says, Every year Jesus' parents

00:02:44.689 --> 00:02:46.750
went to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover.

00:02:47.090 --> 00:02:49.330
When he was 12 years old, they went up to the

00:02:49.330 --> 00:02:51.949
festival according to the custom. After the festival

00:02:51.949 --> 00:02:54.189
was over, when his parents were returning home,

00:02:54.469 --> 00:02:57.900
the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. But

00:02:57.900 --> 00:03:00.219
they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their

00:03:00.219 --> 00:03:02.580
company, they traveled on for a day. Then they

00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:04.460
began looking for him among their relatives and

00:03:04.460 --> 00:03:06.860
friends. When they did not find him, they went

00:03:06.860 --> 00:03:09.280
back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three

00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:11.180
days, they found him in the temple courts sitting

00:03:11.180 --> 00:03:13.500
among the teachers, listening to them and asking

00:03:13.500 --> 00:03:16.240
them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed

00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:18.560
at his understanding and his answers. When his

00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:21.139
parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother

00:03:21.139 --> 00:03:23.379
said to him, Son, why have you treated us like

00:03:23.379 --> 00:03:25.360
this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching

00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:46.409
for you. So one of the first things I like to

00:03:46.409 --> 00:03:50.270
point out there is we'd say that they were looking

00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:52.370
for him for three days, and so people latch onto

00:03:52.370 --> 00:03:54.530
those three days, but they also traveled a day.

00:03:54.629 --> 00:03:56.870
Day out, day back, day in Jerusalem. So that's

00:03:56.870 --> 00:03:59.469
five days, right? So you have one day out, one

00:03:59.469 --> 00:04:01.740
day back. Three days in Jerusalem searching.

00:04:01.939 --> 00:04:04.319
So that's actually five days, not three days.

00:04:04.460 --> 00:04:06.259
It's just the three days of searching. Right.

00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:09.259
Which also begs the question, why is Jerusalem

00:04:09.259 --> 00:04:12.919
so busy? Which is actually a great kind of jump

00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:15.819
into what this is, the conversation about what's

00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:18.579
going on. So it's the Passover, celebration of

00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:21.920
the Exodus. And all the Jews during this one

00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:23.939
will actually come to Jerusalem to celebrate

00:04:23.939 --> 00:04:26.910
the Passover. Now, tip, tick. I'm sorry. Well,

00:04:26.990 --> 00:04:29.209
I can speak. Technically, it's actually just

00:04:29.209 --> 00:04:31.649
the males that are supposed to go, and you can

00:04:31.649 --> 00:04:34.050
just send part of your household. But typically,

00:04:34.110 --> 00:04:36.069
the families will go, and they'll just en masse

00:04:36.069 --> 00:04:38.509
go. And everybody doesn't make it every year

00:04:38.509 --> 00:04:40.310
because life and things, but generally, you're

00:04:40.310 --> 00:04:42.750
supposed to go every year. And it's one of those

00:04:42.750 --> 00:04:45.089
big festivals where you come together, and you

00:04:45.089 --> 00:04:47.670
think of it like the big church party. Yeah.

00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:50.560
Big church potluck where you celebrate Easter.

00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:55.759
It's a celebration of just the magnanimous nature

00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:58.839
of God. One of the things I have talked about

00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:02.019
in the past with festivals, why they're so important,

00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:06.800
is that if you don't take time to remember, you're

00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:10.860
definitely going to forget. Yeah. Like, if you

00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:12.800
don't actually have built in your routine, like,

00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:14.980
oh, I'm going to remember. I'm going to make

00:05:14.980 --> 00:05:17.740
these things a part of my schedule. The Ten Commandments

00:05:17.740 --> 00:05:19.759
opens up with God saying, I am the Lord your

00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:21.279
God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:23.199
And why does he specify that? Because if he doesn't

00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:24.540
remind you, you're probably going to forget.

00:05:24.860 --> 00:05:28.439
In fact, after they're given the Ten Commandments,

00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:30.540
Moses goes down the mountain and they're worshiping

00:05:30.540 --> 00:05:32.959
a golden calf where they say, here is the God

00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.319
who brought you out of Egypt. Yeah. And that

00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:37.560
was 40 days and they'd forgotten. Yeah. I mean,

00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:40.360
it was not so long. Right. Yeah. This actually

00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:43.120
wasn't the only festival that people came out

00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.759
to participate in. There's also the Shavuot,

00:05:46.819 --> 00:05:49.240
which we call Pentecost. Right. And there is

00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:53.779
the celebration of tabernacles. And women and

00:05:53.779 --> 00:05:55.740
children often, though, went for the Passover.

00:05:56.740 --> 00:06:00.199
So Nazareth to Jerusalem would take several days.

00:06:01.310 --> 00:06:04.069
That's why we said day in, day out. With families

00:06:04.069 --> 00:06:05.990
and all the different people, you probably have

00:06:05.990 --> 00:06:08.009
a couple hundred people traveling. It would be

00:06:08.009 --> 00:06:11.250
easy to lose sight of your kids. Yeah, it does

00:06:11.250 --> 00:06:13.870
specify that they looked amongst the relatives

00:06:13.870 --> 00:06:16.470
and people there. So they obviously had a good

00:06:16.470 --> 00:06:18.269
-sized crowd. I know from a parent's standpoint,

00:06:18.449 --> 00:06:20.810
you're thinking, how did you miss your kid? But

00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:22.990
that wasn't unusual, especially for a 12 -year

00:06:22.990 --> 00:06:27.129
-old kid who's actually coming of age. culture

00:06:27.129 --> 00:06:29.930
at that time. Yeah, I think probably 12 feels

00:06:29.930 --> 00:06:32.529
like young for us, but 12 is really old for them,

00:06:32.629 --> 00:06:36.850
right? Like 12 -year -olds in turn -of -the -century

00:06:36.850 --> 00:06:38.649
Israel culture is not the same as 12 -year -olds

00:06:38.649 --> 00:06:41.129
today. Correct. You know, I was thinking about

00:06:41.129 --> 00:06:43.769
Pastor Nick's oldest son, he's almost 12, right?

00:06:44.149 --> 00:06:47.230
And I would probably not feel good about him

00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:49.230
being missing for five days. I have an 11 -year

00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:51.889
-old grandson. I would not feel great about it.

00:06:52.050 --> 00:06:54.110
But on the flip side of that, I don't know, have

00:06:54.110 --> 00:06:57.019
you ever had a really big, like, family gathering,

00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:00.519
like when you guys had a reunion. Yes. And there's

00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:03.800
like the cousins and the brothers and sisters

00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:05.699
and like the littles will just run off with the

00:07:05.699 --> 00:07:07.079
other guys. They absolutely do. And you're not

00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:08.579
worried about it because you might not even see

00:07:08.579 --> 00:07:10.560
them for like eight or nine hours. Correct. I

00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:12.220
feel like it's very similar. Like we have the

00:07:12.220 --> 00:07:15.220
same concept, just slightly different, you know?

00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:17.660
And when you think about even like the way that

00:07:17.660 --> 00:07:19.439
Israel, Israelite culture and Middle Eastern

00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:21.220
culture during that time, you have families a

00:07:21.220 --> 00:07:23.560
lot of times that live in like houses connected

00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:26.839
to each other. Right? So, like, aunt and uncle

00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:29.139
still live in the house. It's multi -generational.

00:07:29.139 --> 00:07:31.939
Yeah. And so, like, it's not surprising that

00:07:31.939 --> 00:07:34.740
they would be like, you know who we haven't seen

00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:37.639
for a few days? Yeah, right. Jesus has been missing.

00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:41.620
I'm not sure where he went. But not surprising.

00:07:41.899 --> 00:07:45.800
Jesus finds himself in the middle of the temple.

00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:49.500
I think sometimes the temple is a little bit

00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:51.920
difficult for us. We had Torah, we talked through

00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:53.259
Torah, and we talked about the construction of

00:07:53.259 --> 00:07:55.459
the temple, but I think a lot of times we think

00:07:55.459 --> 00:07:57.680
temple, we think just regular church service.

00:07:58.670 --> 00:08:01.189
But that's not necessarily how the temple was

00:08:01.189 --> 00:08:03.649
viewed. It's a place where God's presence dwells.

00:08:03.649 --> 00:08:06.129
And so, yes, you go there for service. Yes, you

00:08:06.129 --> 00:08:07.970
go there for sacrifice. Yes, you go there for

00:08:07.970 --> 00:08:10.329
worship. But it's also where the scribes and

00:08:10.329 --> 00:08:12.850
the rabbis, they sit around and they talk and

00:08:12.850 --> 00:08:15.569
they debate and they have conversations. And

00:08:15.569 --> 00:08:18.129
they talk about Torah and they talk about how

00:08:18.129 --> 00:08:20.949
to follow God, especially during this time being

00:08:20.949 --> 00:08:23.389
a very rabbinic -driven time. They're having

00:08:23.389 --> 00:08:25.470
these conversations. And so it's almost more

00:08:25.470 --> 00:08:29.240
of like a college foyer. Right. Right. Where

00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:30.920
you got a bunch of like scholars just sitting

00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:32.559
around having these conversations. You might

00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:35.240
have professors that are lounging about having

00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.120
chats, casual chats with their students. They

00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:38.700
might even have done podcasts if they had the

00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:41.679
technology. Yeah, exactly. Actually, in ancient

00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.139
in ancient Israelite. pictures, you'll see them

00:08:45.139 --> 00:08:48.039
with this podcast equipment going around and

00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:51.480
actually recording. But that's exactly what they

00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:53.220
would be doing, having these conversations. And

00:08:53.220 --> 00:08:56.120
so Jesus finds himself right in the middle of

00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:58.299
that. Now, you and I have had this conversation

00:08:58.299 --> 00:09:03.000
before about Israelite schooling system. So Jesus

00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.279
is 12, which means that he's already gone to

00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:08.460
Bet Sefer. That's the school they typically do

00:09:08.460 --> 00:09:11.960
from age five to... eight nine there's some there's

00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:14.320
some debate about the ages so if one of you has

00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.220
a different opinion like i love that journey

00:09:16.220 --> 00:09:20.159
for you right it's okay um like five or five

00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:22.379
to nine they're going to be learning all of torah

00:09:22.379 --> 00:09:26.340
right so uh memorizing by rote by listening um

00:09:26.340 --> 00:09:28.399
they might have some interpretive elements but

00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:30.399
largely they're just memorizing scripture right

00:09:31.319 --> 00:09:34.259
Uh, usually at that point, unless the student

00:09:34.259 --> 00:09:36.980
is particularly gifted, they're going to go back

00:09:36.980 --> 00:09:38.840
to the family and they're going to, that's going

00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:40.620
to be their schooling up until that point. And

00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:41.720
then they're going to start learning at the dad's

00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:44.779
trade. Um, there is a, and there's some conversation

00:09:44.779 --> 00:09:46.639
about whether it's Bet Midrash or Bet Talmid,

00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:48.960
but I'm just going to say Bet Midrash. Um, they're

00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.700
going to, um, learn at the rest of the Bible.

00:09:52.059 --> 00:09:55.440
So if the kids continue to go on from age 10

00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:57.419
to 12, they're going to learn everything else.

00:09:57.779 --> 00:10:01.620
All the prophets, some commentary on the prophets,

00:10:01.700 --> 00:10:03.980
some interpretive elements from rabbinic conversations.

00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:06.360
Those are going to be the fun things for them

00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:10.419
to do. And so Jesus is right at this age 12 where

00:10:10.419 --> 00:10:12.159
he would have been at towards the end of Bet

00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:15.809
Midrash. And it's not surprising to me that he

00:10:15.809 --> 00:10:17.730
finds himself in the temple talking to a bunch

00:10:17.730 --> 00:10:21.789
of rabbinic professionals. Because at that point,

00:10:21.789 --> 00:10:25.730
if Jesus is going to go and be a rabbi, he would

00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:27.850
actually have to go and follow a rabbi and learn

00:10:27.850 --> 00:10:31.129
that rabbi's positions. This is the whole thing

00:10:31.129 --> 00:10:32.830
about come follow me. We've talked about it on

00:10:32.830 --> 00:10:34.850
the podcast a number of times, and I can't remember

00:10:34.850 --> 00:10:36.389
which episodes. I'll link them in the show notes.

00:10:36.549 --> 00:10:40.090
But we've talked about it before. But he's having

00:10:40.090 --> 00:10:42.110
these conversations with these professionals.

00:10:44.649 --> 00:10:48.350
about scripture, about Torah, and they're asking

00:10:48.350 --> 00:10:50.269
him questions, and he's answering, and he's asking

00:10:50.269 --> 00:10:52.169
them questions, and they're answering, having

00:10:52.169 --> 00:10:53.809
this debate back and forth, and they're just

00:10:53.809 --> 00:10:56.750
surprised at how knowledgeable he is, which,

00:10:56.850 --> 00:11:00.009
by the way, is a huge mark in his favor. Correct.

00:11:00.190 --> 00:11:03.190
Right? Huge. And it's just not surprising to

00:11:03.190 --> 00:11:04.590
me that Jesus is there having that conversation,

00:11:04.769 --> 00:11:07.049
because if he's going to be a rabbi, that's the

00:11:07.049 --> 00:11:09.389
next step. You actually have to go and find a

00:11:09.389 --> 00:11:10.929
rabbi and say that you would want to follow them.

00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.580
Um, which by the way is why Jesus is strange.

00:11:13.700 --> 00:11:15.539
He calls his people, not the other way around.

00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.440
Right. Um, now ultimately, obviously a rabbi

00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:20.960
calls no matter what, but usually you go and

00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:23.200
petition the rabbi to be a follower of theirs

00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:24.820
and they basically test whether or not that's

00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:28.000
true. Um, there is a quote from Marty Solomon,

00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:30.159
my friend Marty on the Bema podcast. He says,

00:11:30.259 --> 00:11:35.340
um, a rabbi. being a Talmudite, a disciple of

00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:38.000
a rabbi means knowing what the rabbi knows in

00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.200
order to do what the rabbi does in order to be

00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:42.399
just like the rabbi in his walk with God. Okay.

00:11:43.220 --> 00:11:46.039
Meaning that when a rabbi takes on his disciples,

00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.500
he's saying, I can make you into myself or better,

00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:53.840
which is a very tall bar, which is why you don't

00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:55.679
choose the rabbi, the rabbi, you come to the

00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:57.559
rabbi, but he tests you to see if he can actually

00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:00.480
do something with you. Right. Right. What do

00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:04.360
you think about that? Well, I think that's right

00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:09.110
on. That's why he's there. I know a lot of people

00:12:09.110 --> 00:12:11.590
have questions about you've got a 12 -year -old

00:12:11.590 --> 00:12:13.830
kid that's missing and you find him in the temple.

00:12:13.929 --> 00:12:15.509
I know if I was looking for my 11 -year -old

00:12:15.509 --> 00:12:17.429
grandson, I'm going to be looking in the park.

00:12:17.529 --> 00:12:19.889
I'm going to be looking in the pool. I'm going

00:12:19.889 --> 00:12:21.250
to be looking at other places. I'm not going

00:12:21.250 --> 00:12:24.649
to think to look in the church that he goes to.

00:12:24.730 --> 00:12:26.269
Maybe even the market, somewhere they're selling

00:12:26.269 --> 00:12:27.730
food. Right, exactly. I guess he's been gone

00:12:27.730 --> 00:12:30.029
five days. Yeah, he's been out on his own for

00:12:30.029 --> 00:12:31.730
five days. Where's he sleeping? Where's he eating?

00:12:31.889 --> 00:12:33.830
Did somebody take him in and take care of him?

00:12:33.909 --> 00:12:35.909
Those are all parental questions. Do I have extended

00:12:35.909 --> 00:12:38.529
family? in Jerusalem that he might have gone

00:12:38.529 --> 00:12:40.029
to. Right, and it's not like they could have

00:12:40.029 --> 00:12:41.210
called the parents and said, hey, he's staying

00:12:41.210 --> 00:12:42.970
with us. You've got to go back and find him and

00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:44.730
figure that out. No group text messages going

00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:46.889
out. Podcasting equipment, but no phones. Yeah,

00:12:46.929 --> 00:12:49.330
there you go. But those are interesting thoughts

00:12:49.330 --> 00:12:54.509
and questions, why he's there. But yeah, from

00:12:54.509 --> 00:12:57.309
the Jewish perspective, it's understandable at

00:12:57.309 --> 00:12:59.909
age 12 he's just coming into that time where

00:12:59.909 --> 00:13:02.990
he would want to do that, and that's his ministry.

00:13:03.629 --> 00:13:06.500
Yeah. Well, and it's a unique place for him to

00:13:06.500 --> 00:13:08.360
be. He hasn't done his bar mitzvah. Typically,

00:13:08.460 --> 00:13:11.240
that's at 13. That's where you officially become

00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:14.960
a man. But he's there and he's just having conversations

00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:19.120
with these Jewish leaders. What we actually see

00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:21.919
here, too, is these are actually Jesus' first

00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:26.179
recorded words at age 12. Why were you looking

00:13:26.179 --> 00:13:27.899
for me anywhere else? Didn't you know I'd be

00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:30.559
in my father's house? And that's an interesting

00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:34.799
statement because there's... a lot of silence

00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.860
in his first 12 years. And then after this point

00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:40.440
in time, all the way up till he hits 30. So there's

00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:42.360
a lot of blank spots in there that obviously

00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.120
lots of questions and speculations. And there's

00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.700
been some non -biblical stories about what was

00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:49.659
going on in his life at that point in time. But

00:13:49.659 --> 00:13:53.700
what was his life like? His parents were obviously

00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:56.220
good Jews. Hold on a second. We knocked your

00:13:56.220 --> 00:13:58.539
mic over. We did. Let's do that. There we go.

00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:03.820
Okay. His parents were good Jews and did all

00:14:03.820 --> 00:14:05.259
the things that they were supposed to be doing.

00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.200
He was learning all of that. What indications

00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.399
did he give as a child that he knew his divinity?

00:14:12.379 --> 00:14:17.779
And so you wonder why didn't his parents look

00:14:17.779 --> 00:14:20.139
there first? He's still a 12 -year -old kid in

00:14:20.139 --> 00:14:25.720
our minds. But what led him to go to obviously

00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:30.049
draw the spirit? Well, and you touched on something

00:14:30.049 --> 00:14:31.730
which I think is an interesting conversation

00:14:31.730 --> 00:14:33.929
that we have in, and I'm just going to call it

00:14:33.929 --> 00:14:37.990
Christendom, right? How much does Jesus know

00:14:37.990 --> 00:14:43.909
as Messiah, as Son of God, versus how much does

00:14:43.909 --> 00:14:47.789
he learn, right? I've had conversations with

00:14:47.789 --> 00:14:49.929
people, and by the way, whatever opinion you

00:14:49.929 --> 00:14:51.629
hold on that, that's totally fine. We're just

00:14:51.629 --> 00:14:55.159
probably going to disagree. I've had people who

00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:58.139
have this opinion that while Jesus is in human

00:14:58.139 --> 00:15:01.639
form, he's also controlling the cosmos at the

00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:04.919
same time. And I don't think that the biblical

00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:08.259
text lends itself to that. And specifically,

00:15:08.299 --> 00:15:11.419
one of the places that I point out about that

00:15:11.419 --> 00:15:16.799
is that Luke comments that Jesus returns back.

00:15:16.820 --> 00:15:20.440
He grows in wisdom and stature and in favor with

00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:23.100
both God and man. Right. So obviously he didn't

00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:24.759
know everything. Yeah. So obviously there's some

00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.779
capacity where he has to learn. Right. Right.

00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.559
And, uh, and it makes people kind of uncomfortable,

00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.740
but I was like, that's part of being in with

00:15:33.740 --> 00:15:36.039
us dwelling with us is actually going through

00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.899
the process of what we go through too. Um, cause

00:15:38.899 --> 00:15:40.899
I had this conversation and I carried it to an

00:15:40.899 --> 00:15:43.529
absurd length. So just. Sometimes I have a tendency

00:15:43.529 --> 00:15:48.070
to argue for argument's sake, which is not a

00:15:48.070 --> 00:15:51.309
great Christ -likeness, but it is a characteristic

00:15:51.309 --> 00:15:53.909
that I've been trying to iron out of my flesh.

00:15:53.990 --> 00:15:56.149
But that also is a strong point. It makes you

00:15:56.149 --> 00:15:58.090
dig in and really figure things out, which I

00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:01.710
truly appreciate. So this, I said, because I

00:16:01.710 --> 00:16:04.289
said, well, so in your opinion, then, does Jesus

00:16:04.289 --> 00:16:06.350
just come out and if he's a baby, he's like,

00:16:06.389 --> 00:16:09.669
he's like, mother, I must feed. right you know

00:16:09.669 --> 00:16:11.870
as like does he immediately potty train himself

00:16:11.870 --> 00:16:13.909
as soon as he's physically able to get his body

00:16:13.909 --> 00:16:16.029
to do it and you know there's i mean these absurd

00:16:16.029 --> 00:16:18.690
absurd things i'm carrying it obviously way to

00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:21.870
the point of being absurd is that well no a reasonable

00:16:21.870 --> 00:16:23.789
person understands from a reading of the biblical

00:16:23.789 --> 00:16:26.149
text which doesn't cover everything uh let's

00:16:26.149 --> 00:16:29.529
be honest there's 20 20 plus chapters in each

00:16:29.529 --> 00:16:32.330
book uh sorry mark is shorter so let's just call

00:16:32.330 --> 00:16:36.980
it average of 20 chapters per book right um for

00:16:36.980 --> 00:16:39.960
a guy who lived for 34 years. Yeah. There's not

00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:41.740
a whole lot that's being covered there. There's

00:16:41.740 --> 00:16:43.679
a lot missing, yeah. Yeah, you're not gonna cover,

00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.080
I mean, we could write, you know, 30 books alone

00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.919
on what happened this year. Mm -hmm. Right? And

00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:50.840
there's, because there's just so much that's

00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:53.379
going on. And yet Jesus has, so the information

00:16:53.379 --> 00:16:55.799
we are given, we have to be like, okay, why is

00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:58.799
this here? Right. Now, it's interesting. It says

00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:04.700
Jesus grows in both wisdom, so that's intellectually.

00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:10.890
Yep. stature, that's physically. He also grows

00:17:10.890 --> 00:17:14.369
in favor with God, spiritually, and with man,

00:17:14.509 --> 00:17:17.750
socially, right? So as he's growing, it says

00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:20.990
Jesus goes home with his parents, and he's growing

00:17:20.990 --> 00:17:23.730
physically, mentally, spiritually, and socially,

00:17:23.890 --> 00:17:27.069
right? And if that's important for the Son of

00:17:27.069 --> 00:17:29.750
God. Kind of think it'd be important for us too.

00:17:29.869 --> 00:17:31.569
Kind of think it'd be important for us too. Dials

00:17:31.569 --> 00:17:34.329
it right in. Yeah. Now, there is a connection

00:17:34.329 --> 00:17:36.529
here that I love. You're familiar with the character

00:17:36.529 --> 00:17:38.589
of Samuel in the Old Testament? Yep. Yeah. So

00:17:38.589 --> 00:17:41.730
Samuel, when he's a child, Hannah gives birth

00:17:41.730 --> 00:17:45.289
to Samuel and gives him to the temple. And it

00:17:45.289 --> 00:17:48.210
says that he wakes up and God's calling his name

00:17:48.210 --> 00:17:50.509
and Eli is like, okay. I figured out what's going

00:17:50.509 --> 00:17:52.289
on. God's just calling to you. Just tell him

00:17:52.289 --> 00:17:54.230
that you hear him and you're ready to go. But

00:17:54.230 --> 00:17:56.609
God gives Samuel his instructions on what he's

00:17:56.609 --> 00:17:58.390
going to be doing in his life. And then it makes

00:17:58.390 --> 00:18:00.029
an interesting comment. It says, this boy Samuel

00:18:00.029 --> 00:18:03.009
grew in both favor with God and man. It's the

00:18:03.009 --> 00:18:07.230
exact same quote. Same quote. Right? And I don't

00:18:07.230 --> 00:18:09.789
think that's an accident from Luke, right, when

00:18:09.789 --> 00:18:12.289
he's compiling this. Now, we talked about in

00:18:12.289 --> 00:18:13.930
a few episodes ago, we talked about how Luke

00:18:13.930 --> 00:18:17.029
is a compilation of 500 plus witnesses that he

00:18:17.029 --> 00:18:19.460
interviewed. Right. Right. So he's got all these

00:18:19.460 --> 00:18:21.599
witnesses and first accounts because he wasn't

00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:24.190
there. He wasn't there. No. Well, he was there.

00:18:24.210 --> 00:18:27.470
He wasn't there, right? And so he's compiling

00:18:27.470 --> 00:18:29.450
all these. So is he taking this from his mother?

00:18:29.509 --> 00:18:31.210
Is he taking it from other people who were in

00:18:31.210 --> 00:18:33.109
the temple? Maybe one of the rabbis he was debating

00:18:33.109 --> 00:18:37.250
with? Who knows? Multiple times in Luke, he mentions

00:18:37.250 --> 00:18:41.269
in this particular verse, and his mother pondered

00:18:41.269 --> 00:18:43.589
these things in her heart. Yeah. And that, to

00:18:43.589 --> 00:18:45.890
me, kind of reflects on she remembered this.

00:18:46.049 --> 00:18:49.230
Yeah. And he does that in other cases, too, where

00:18:49.230 --> 00:18:52.000
he's... interviewing somebody and they had remembered

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.759
all this. Luke also does a really good job of

00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:57.119
connecting what's going on with what was happening

00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.980
in the Old Testament too. And so when he says

00:18:59.980 --> 00:19:03.420
this boy Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, gaining

00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:06.180
favor with both God and men, he's also subtly

00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:08.000
to all the Jewish listeners telling them, hey,

00:19:08.019 --> 00:19:12.160
you remember how Samuel was a prophet leading

00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:17.160
to a Davidic king, right? You know, also Jesus

00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.490
is a prophet. one of the greatest prophets that's

00:19:20.490 --> 00:19:24.029
ever going to be. Also, he's going to be a Davidic

00:19:24.029 --> 00:19:27.730
king, right? There's these subtle imageries around

00:19:27.730 --> 00:19:31.589
the corner that they're like, okay, I see where

00:19:31.589 --> 00:19:33.450
you're going with that. Actually, I think it's

00:19:33.450 --> 00:19:34.690
one of those things. I don't think anybody at

00:19:34.690 --> 00:19:36.890
the time saw it and acknowledged it. You can

00:19:36.890 --> 00:19:41.250
look back and see the clues that were being given.

00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:44.369
Yeah. Well, and there's actually in this story

00:19:44.369 --> 00:19:47.009
and prior to this, there's actually a lot of

00:19:47.009 --> 00:19:50.650
connections in early Luke. To Hannah and Samuel.

00:19:50.809 --> 00:19:53.970
For example, Hannah is barren. Right. And she

00:19:53.970 --> 00:19:57.049
goes to the temple and she prays. And Eli tells

00:19:57.049 --> 00:19:59.329
her that God hurt her. She's going to have the

00:19:59.329 --> 00:20:01.930
kid. When she has the kid, she sings a song.

00:20:02.410 --> 00:20:04.450
And then she brings and dedicates the kid at

00:20:04.450 --> 00:20:06.450
the temple. The kid is found at the temple, raised

00:20:06.450 --> 00:20:08.609
at the temple. The things are going on there.

00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:13.440
In the story of Jesus. God or the angel shows

00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:15.079
up and tells Mary, hey, you're going to be pregnant

00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.359
with a child, right? So she didn't have a child.

00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:21.420
Now she's going to have a child. Once she actually

00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:23.799
gives, not when she gives birth, when she's having

00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:26.940
this conversation with Elizabeth, she sings what

00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:30.700
we call the Magnificent, right? She sings a song

00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:34.299
of praise to God, mimicking what's going on with

00:20:34.299 --> 00:20:37.119
Hannah. And then we have this story here where

00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:41.799
Jesus is in a temple again. And also we have

00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:43.460
this direct connection to the story of Samuel.

00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:46.819
So there's a lot. And that's just a few. Honestly,

00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:50.119
if you are a nerd out person, this is a fun one

00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:51.640
to nerd out on. So there's a lot of connections,

00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:53.619
especially if you actually go into the two songs,

00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.720
the song of Hannah and the song of Mary. There's

00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.079
a lot of really interesting connections there.

00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.900
It's not an accident that those feel like they

00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:03.259
are telling the same story in different ways.

00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.000
Um, it's actually one of my favorite things.

00:21:06.059 --> 00:21:08.119
So, uh, I think you and I were talking about,

00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:09.839
I was reading a textual critic the other day

00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.460
and he was writing in his stories and he talks

00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:14.779
about how Matthew says this, but Luke says this.

00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.839
And, uh, like there's discrepancy in the way

00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:19.180
that they're talking about these things. I was

00:21:19.180 --> 00:21:20.480
like, well, no, they're actually talking about

00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:23.480
two different things. Right. And, uh, that's

00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:25.960
one of the problems with textual criticism is

00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:28.500
that they try to, they try to harmonize things.

00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.539
Rather than actually, if you don't believe that

00:21:31.539 --> 00:21:33.380
the text is inspired, you're going to look, just

00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:35.539
be like, why doesn't it connect? Right. If you

00:21:35.539 --> 00:21:37.380
believe it's inspired, you're going to ask questions

00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:39.019
of like, why would you say it this way if you

00:21:39.019 --> 00:21:41.279
said it this way over here? Right. And then you

00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:42.500
actually find the connection you're supposed

00:21:42.500 --> 00:21:44.160
to be looking for. Right. And it makes a big

00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:45.799
difference. And so much of that connection is

00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.460
Old Testament to New Testament. So in a reoccurring

00:21:49.460 --> 00:21:51.059
theme that's going to happen throughout Jesus's

00:21:51.059 --> 00:21:53.500
life, something from the Old Testament that is

00:21:53.500 --> 00:21:55.940
taking place, he's going to step into and be

00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:59.289
the greater version of. So, and this is just

00:21:59.289 --> 00:22:02.589
an example, is that Jesus is the greater Samuel,

00:22:02.809 --> 00:22:05.069
right? He's going to be the king, but he's going

00:22:05.069 --> 00:22:08.029
to be the greater Davidic king, right? He's a

00:22:08.029 --> 00:22:10.769
second Moses, but he's a greater Moses, right?

00:22:11.049 --> 00:22:14.950
And he is the firstborn, like Israel was, but

00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:18.910
he's the greater firstborn, right? There's actually

00:22:18.910 --> 00:22:22.410
like this commentary because it says both in

00:22:22.410 --> 00:22:25.990
Isaiah and Hosea that Israel is God's firstborn.

00:22:26.929 --> 00:22:28.970
Right? By the way, we're going to be talking

00:22:28.970 --> 00:22:31.970
about Nicodemus in a few weeks, and he makes

00:22:31.970 --> 00:22:33.490
a comment. He says, for God so loved the world

00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:36.650
that he gave his one and only son. Who did Nicodemus

00:22:36.650 --> 00:22:40.190
think that Jesus was talking about? Probably

00:22:40.190 --> 00:22:43.529
Israel. Ah, right. Right? The point of Israel

00:22:43.529 --> 00:22:45.609
was that all the world was supposed to be blessed.

00:22:45.809 --> 00:22:48.890
Right. It's why Jesus being a Jewish Messiah

00:22:48.890 --> 00:22:51.289
matters a lot, and understanding that matters

00:22:51.289 --> 00:22:56.529
a lot. Yep. You know? So this whole thing of

00:22:56.529 --> 00:22:58.650
Jesus is stepping into this role. So he's the

00:22:58.650 --> 00:23:02.849
Torah made flesh. He is. Later in his life, at

00:23:02.849 --> 00:23:05.410
his resurrection, there's going to be a chair

00:23:05.410 --> 00:23:09.730
of him seated at either end of his tomb. There's

00:23:09.730 --> 00:23:13.109
going to be the wrapped clothes that are there

00:23:13.109 --> 00:23:15.480
that have like... Sorry, there's so much going

00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:18.880
on that comes back to the Ark of the Covenant,

00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:20.759
right? Because there's cherubim on either side,

00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.440
and Jesus is the bread of life, right? I am the

00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:25.920
bread that came down from heaven, which, by the

00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.700
way, was in the Ark of the Covenant. And so there's

00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:30.160
going to be all these different things that are

00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:32.680
connecting and making the Jewish brains go...

00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:36.160
And then we as Americans come in and we go, huh,

00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:39.279
what does that mean? Right, because we don't

00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.750
have that context. How many weird theologies

00:23:41.750 --> 00:23:44.069
have come because we don't know what something

00:23:44.069 --> 00:23:46.369
means, we don't go back to the context, and then

00:23:46.369 --> 00:23:48.130
we just make up how we think it means. Right.

00:23:48.230 --> 00:23:51.410
Right? Way too much. Way too often. Well, you

00:23:51.410 --> 00:23:53.589
know, and my thoughts just focusing on the story

00:23:53.589 --> 00:23:57.930
itself, the feelings and trying to get into a

00:23:57.930 --> 00:24:02.630
biblical story, and what were his parents like,

00:24:02.690 --> 00:24:05.460
what was... culturally going on. And we understand

00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:07.559
that from, you know, as we talked about, there

00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:09.200
was a large group. That's why they, you know,

00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.220
didn't miss him right away. And now they find

00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:13.559
him and they're a little bit unhappy with him.

00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:16.720
A little bit. A little bit unhappy with him.

00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:20.500
And his response is like, why wouldn't, you know,

00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:22.700
why wouldn't you expect me to be here in my father's

00:24:22.700 --> 00:24:24.779
house? Yeah. And that was kind of a statement

00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:27.319
from them that, you know, because Mary comes

00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:29.359
in, his mom, and says, your father and I were

00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:31.859
missing you. And he says, I'm in my father's

00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:34.200
house. And so there's an acknowledgement right

00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:38.380
there that he knows who his father is. So in

00:24:38.380 --> 00:24:40.740
some capacity, he knows who he is. Right. But

00:24:40.740 --> 00:24:43.880
he's also growing in wisdom. Right. And it's

00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:45.779
one of those reasons why... So there's a fancy

00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:48.259
term called hyperstatic union. Are you familiar

00:24:48.259 --> 00:24:51.619
with that? No. So Jesus is fully man. Okay. And

00:24:51.619 --> 00:24:53.539
he's fully God. Right, right. And there's a hyper

00:24:53.539 --> 00:24:56.920
static union of the two. Okay. And so he never

00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:59.500
stops being fully man and fully God. Yet when

00:24:59.500 --> 00:25:01.680
he's walking the earth, he's always man empowered

00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:04.140
by the spirit of God. Right. But he's still God.

00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:07.509
And so like there's this. There's this conversation

00:25:07.509 --> 00:25:09.450
in the church where people try to define too

00:25:09.450 --> 00:25:12.089
far one way or too far the other, and the other

00:25:12.089 --> 00:25:14.470
person looks across the aisle and says, heretic,

00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:17.190
right? Because of how you define that. And the

00:25:17.190 --> 00:25:20.109
reality is none of us completely understand how

00:25:20.109 --> 00:25:23.609
that works. We know that Jesus is fully man,

00:25:23.710 --> 00:25:26.740
and we know that he's fully God. Right. We also

00:25:26.740 --> 00:25:30.059
know that whatever he did on the earth, he invited

00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:32.940
us to follow in his steps. Correct. Which we

00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:35.019
couldn't do in our brokenness. No. Right? It

00:25:35.019 --> 00:25:36.900
had to be through the redeemed work and trusting

00:25:36.900 --> 00:25:38.819
in the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, empowerment

00:25:38.819 --> 00:25:41.039
of the Holy Spirit. We now are able to walk in

00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:43.420
that, but we are called to go and be just like

00:25:43.420 --> 00:25:46.410
him, not because we're God. Right. Because he

00:25:46.410 --> 00:25:49.049
did it as a man empowered by God while still

00:25:49.049 --> 00:25:50.690
being God. He did it by being filled with the

00:25:50.690 --> 00:25:53.450
Holy Spirit. Right. And he was the perfect version

00:25:53.450 --> 00:25:56.210
of that. I mean, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

00:25:56.210 --> 00:25:59.529
are one. And so he had the greatest unity of

00:25:59.529 --> 00:26:02.089
the Holy Spirit. We're striving for that. But

00:26:02.089 --> 00:26:03.869
we can walk with that same spirit that empowered

00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:05.210
him. That's what he said. Yeah. There's going

00:26:05.210 --> 00:26:07.470
to be a story we're going to talk about in a

00:26:07.470 --> 00:26:09.569
couple of weeks right before he goes out into

00:26:09.569 --> 00:26:12.809
the desert to have his to -do with the devil.

00:26:12.930 --> 00:26:14.230
That's probably not the right way to say it,

00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:17.279
but that's how I'm saying it. Yep. But as he

00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.660
is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Spirit

00:26:19.660 --> 00:26:21.859
is going to descend like a dove, and it's going

00:26:21.859 --> 00:26:26.359
to rest on him and stay. Right. That's significant

00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:28.660
when we start looking at the Old Testament. I'm

00:26:28.660 --> 00:26:30.000
not going to get into it today, but when we get

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.019
into that episode, it's significant that it stays,

00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:35.019
and it stays with him the entire time that he

00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:38.420
goes. And we're not going to get too deep into

00:26:38.420 --> 00:26:39.859
that because there's a long way to go in Jesus'

00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:45.789
life. Sure. But there is, coming back to the

00:26:45.789 --> 00:26:48.369
story, there is some capacity that Jesus is like,

00:26:48.490 --> 00:26:52.930
okay, I know who I am. Right. Right? And it doesn't

00:26:52.930 --> 00:26:54.849
particularly feel arrogant. It doesn't particularly

00:26:54.849 --> 00:26:57.789
feel like, it doesn't even feel like he's challenging

00:26:57.789 --> 00:27:00.109
them. It's more like he's confused. He's like,

00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:03.069
where else would I be? Right. But then it also

00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:05.470
says that he was obedient to his parents and

00:27:05.470 --> 00:27:07.670
went home with them and then spent the next—he

00:27:07.670 --> 00:27:11.029
was 12 years, and we don't hear again from him

00:27:11.029 --> 00:27:13.910
until he's 30, basically. Yeah, 18 years between

00:27:13.910 --> 00:27:15.849
that. 18 years in there. Which, by the way, our

00:27:15.849 --> 00:27:18.250
next episode, we're going to speculate and talk

00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:19.829
about just some of what's going on during that

00:27:19.829 --> 00:27:21.710
time. We're actually going to talk about some

00:27:21.710 --> 00:27:23.630
things that were happening historically, but

00:27:23.630 --> 00:27:25.289
we're also going to talk about some rabbinic

00:27:25.289 --> 00:27:26.829
things that were happening during that time that

00:27:26.829 --> 00:27:30.490
might give us some ideas of how Jesus was growing.

00:27:30.829 --> 00:27:32.490
of how he jumps into his ministry afterwards.

00:27:32.829 --> 00:27:36.269
Right. That's an interesting gap. Yeah. And it'd

00:27:36.269 --> 00:27:38.930
be interesting to talk about. I always think

00:27:38.930 --> 00:27:40.589
it's interesting, though. So one of the reasons

00:27:40.589 --> 00:27:43.990
that, yes, the Gospels are history, but they're

00:27:43.990 --> 00:27:46.150
Gospels, which means that they're good news.

00:27:46.289 --> 00:27:50.910
They're trying to communicate a truth about the

00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:53.549
kingdom of God, right? If you talk about the

00:27:53.549 --> 00:27:56.809
word for good news is euangelion, which is a

00:27:56.809 --> 00:28:00.900
fantastic word. Alexander the Great had a euangelion.

00:28:01.059 --> 00:28:04.140
He says, you know, that this kingdom of Alexander

00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:06.440
is going to look like this. And then he kind

00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:08.500
of gives his missive, his manifesto, if you will,

00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:11.500
of what that's going to be. Caesar Augustus had

00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:14.039
a euangelion. Every new Caesar had a euangelion.

00:28:14.299 --> 00:28:16.339
And it says, this is the good news of the kingdom

00:28:16.339 --> 00:28:19.180
of Caesar Augustus, right? This is the good news

00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:22.539
of the kingdom of Julius Caesar, right? And so

00:28:22.539 --> 00:28:24.819
Jesus and the disciples step into this to say,

00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:28.950
hey, we also have a euangelion. It's just not

00:28:28.950 --> 00:28:32.890
what you expect. And so when you have Matthew,

00:28:32.930 --> 00:28:35.829
Mark, Luke, and John, they all are trying to

00:28:35.829 --> 00:28:38.630
communicate different perspectives on this good

00:28:38.630 --> 00:28:41.710
news that is Jesus Christ. And so is it history?

00:28:41.849 --> 00:28:46.930
Yes. But is it primarily history? No. Like it

00:28:46.930 --> 00:28:48.670
has historic elements. Did these things happen?

00:28:48.769 --> 00:28:50.890
Yes, of course they did. But they're shaped for

00:28:50.890 --> 00:28:52.670
you to understand about what is going on in the

00:28:52.670 --> 00:28:56.109
kingdom of God. Because otherwise, 12 to 30?

00:28:56.859 --> 00:28:58.799
is a pretty significant amount of time to know

00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.700
nothing about. And, I mean, to be fair, we also

00:29:01.700 --> 00:29:05.279
know very little about 2 to 12. Yes. Right? And

00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:09.779
if you had a historic book, I was actually, I

00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:15.900
took a class on Jonathan Edwards. Okay. And we

00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:18.519
had a whole chapter, two chapters, about his

00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:21.380
childhood and growing up and his family and his

00:29:21.380 --> 00:29:23.359
family influence and all these different things

00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:25.019
about his history because we're telling history.

00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:29.579
Right. Like the biblical authors like yeah, yeah,

00:29:29.579 --> 00:29:32.339
we're just gonna skip to the next part. They're

00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:34.259
teaching about the kingdom of God Yeah, that's

00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:36.500
what it's really about. You know Jesus bringing

00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:39.259
in the kingdom of God It becomes problematic

00:29:39.259 --> 00:29:42.940
When you ask the wrong questions and then take

00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:45.279
the answers that you get. Mm -hmm You're always

00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:46.740
gonna get the wrong answers if you ask the wrong

00:29:46.740 --> 00:29:49.180
questions, right? So I think a lot of times the

00:29:49.180 --> 00:29:53.480
people and the people people in general will

00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:55.059
come to the Bible and they'll ask the questions

00:29:55.059 --> 00:30:00.910
of did Jesus really exist? Did this thing really

00:30:00.910 --> 00:30:03.950
happen? And they're expecting the Bible to supply

00:30:03.950 --> 00:30:06.829
those answers, but the authors don't question

00:30:06.829 --> 00:30:10.410
that. So they're not answering questions that

00:30:10.410 --> 00:30:12.069
they, they're never going to answer questions

00:30:12.069 --> 00:30:16.470
they never asked. If you were Luke, for example,

00:30:16.630 --> 00:30:19.289
like Luke knows thousands of people who interacted

00:30:19.289 --> 00:30:20.910
with Jesus. He's not wondering whether or not

00:30:20.910 --> 00:30:23.519
Jesus is a real person. Correct. He's also not

00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:25.220
wondering about the power of the Holy Spirit

00:30:25.220 --> 00:30:26.940
or whether people got healed because it's literally

00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:29.180
happening in his day. Yeah, he's seeing it. It's

00:30:29.180 --> 00:30:31.299
an everyday thing. I'm walking with Jesus. Like

00:30:31.299 --> 00:30:33.720
John doesn't have to talk about, like he does

00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:36.079
because he has to deal with some things that

00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.079
are going on later in history. But John doesn't

00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:41.099
have to question whether or not Jesus was fully

00:30:41.099 --> 00:30:43.660
man and fully God. He knows completely who Jesus

00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:46.319
was. And he also knows that all these things

00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:47.960
that Jesus did, he's like, there's more that

00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:49.519
I could tell you than could possibly show up

00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.460
in every book we've ever written. Exactly. But

00:30:52.460 --> 00:30:53.980
these things are really important for you to

00:30:53.980 --> 00:30:55.920
understand because you need to be able to trust

00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:58.660
that who he was is who we say he is, and that

00:30:58.660 --> 00:31:00.599
when you trust him, these things are going to

00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:02.640
bring you to the kingdom of God. And they selected

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.460
all four gospels, selected stories that reinforce

00:31:06.460 --> 00:31:10.519
that. So with that in mind, with this story,

00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:13.519
why is this so significant? Because it's the

00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:16.079
only gospel that actually deals with this. Right.

00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:19.960
Right. Why is this story so significant? I think

00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:22.980
and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but but

00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:25.619
Luke was the one that really dug in and he interviewed

00:31:25.619 --> 00:31:27.980
people and he wrote a lot of details, you know,

00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:29.720
and he figured out a lot of research, a lot of

00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.039
facts and what he put into his. Yeah. His is

00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:33.579
definitely going to be more universal in scope,

00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:36.180
too. Yes. I wonder if there's also not some capacity

00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:39.000
because Luke sometimes includes some details

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:43.430
that other people don't that. He's a doctor,

00:31:43.529 --> 00:31:46.730
a learned person, talking about the intellectual

00:31:46.730 --> 00:31:50.470
growth of Jesus. Right. Right? I wonder if there's

00:31:50.470 --> 00:31:53.109
not some sort of influence there that he's talking

00:31:53.109 --> 00:31:55.170
about. He's like, this story is really interesting,

00:31:55.250 --> 00:31:57.029
and it's important for those people who are intellectual

00:31:57.029 --> 00:32:01.589
to see that Jesus grew too. Right? Right. That

00:32:01.589 --> 00:32:05.650
Jesus was a boy at one point. He grew from a

00:32:05.650 --> 00:32:08.730
boy to a man. Yeah, and this was the one story

00:32:08.730 --> 00:32:11.569
we have to emphasize that, to document that,

00:32:11.609 --> 00:32:15.710
that he found in his research and interviews

00:32:15.710 --> 00:32:17.930
and all that. Many of the others were firsthand

00:32:17.930 --> 00:32:20.930
stories. We've been discussing, the questions

00:32:20.930 --> 00:32:24.220
I had were, you know, the... the reason for this

00:32:24.220 --> 00:32:27.339
particular story and his parental interactions

00:32:27.339 --> 00:32:29.660
his obedience to his parents because some people

00:32:29.660 --> 00:32:33.380
look at this as disobeying his parents and that

00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:36.079
really wasn't the case he was caught up in what

00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:38.599
he was doing in the spirit and his parents came

00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:41.640
back and he was fully obedient to them you know,

00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:43.759
in his life. Yeah. And I don't, I mean, I think

00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:45.819
from the text is fairly clear that the parents

00:32:45.819 --> 00:32:48.599
were not, their frustration is more that we didn't

00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:50.460
know where you were. Right. Not, they weren't

00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:52.299
really frustrated at him in general. Correct.

00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:54.960
Right. It's, it's more of a frustration of like,

00:32:55.019 --> 00:32:58.490
Hmm. There you are. Yeah, there you are. And

00:32:58.490 --> 00:33:00.569
I bet you if they lost him in the future, they

00:33:00.569 --> 00:33:02.210
went to Czech synagogue first. They probably

00:33:02.210 --> 00:33:05.250
did. They learned his lesson, yeah. I wrote in,

00:33:05.309 --> 00:33:08.109
oh, by the way, I'll announce this for the podcast

00:33:08.109 --> 00:33:09.549
because by the time this comes out, it'll actually

00:33:09.549 --> 00:33:11.710
probably be published, but I wrote my first book

00:33:11.710 --> 00:33:14.430
about... Congratulations. Thank you, thank you.

00:33:14.809 --> 00:33:17.849
And it's about, it's called Beautiful Chaos,

00:33:18.089 --> 00:33:20.529
Infinite Love, and it talks about parenting and

00:33:20.529 --> 00:33:23.109
about how my interactions with my children have

00:33:23.109 --> 00:33:26.549
taught me so much about how God is. about how

00:33:26.549 --> 00:33:28.730
he interacts with his children. But in one of

00:33:28.730 --> 00:33:30.630
the chapters, I talk about I have a foolproof

00:33:30.630 --> 00:33:33.250
method to figure out where a baby is when you

00:33:33.250 --> 00:33:35.450
lose them. Think of the most dangerous place

00:33:35.450 --> 00:33:38.309
you can think of. That's where they are. That's

00:33:38.309 --> 00:33:41.490
where they're going to be. In Jesus' case, the

00:33:41.490 --> 00:33:43.730
most dangerous place for him to be was in the

00:33:43.730 --> 00:33:47.950
temple, apparently. Again, in this story, we've

00:33:47.950 --> 00:33:51.109
mentioned it says he grew in... He went back

00:33:51.109 --> 00:33:54.750
and he grew in stature and he grew in favor and

00:33:54.750 --> 00:33:58.630
wisdom with God and man. And that's really, really

00:33:58.630 --> 00:34:00.150
important. I think that's what triggers this

00:34:00.150 --> 00:34:02.450
is that he started at age 12 and he's really

00:34:02.450 --> 00:34:05.789
digging in there, understanding who he is, but

00:34:05.789 --> 00:34:10.409
still learning about that and what his humanness

00:34:10.409 --> 00:34:14.699
and godness. what's that look like, and how does

00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:16.579
he walk that out? Well, let me ask you this,

00:34:16.659 --> 00:34:18.079
because I had a couple of questions pop up in

00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:20.440
my mind as you were saying that. So when we talk

00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:23.480
about growing in wisdom with God and man, I don't

00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:25.880
think that there's any Christian theologian out

00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:27.579
there who doesn't say that we should grow in

00:34:27.579 --> 00:34:30.059
favor with God, right? Correct. I don't think

00:34:30.059 --> 00:34:31.400
that anybody's like, you know what, you probably

00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.599
need less God in your life, right? That'd be

00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:37.320
weird for them to say. But what we do have is

00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:45.329
there are theologies, that make you problematic

00:34:45.329 --> 00:34:49.789
to the community at large. Now, let me kind of

00:34:49.789 --> 00:34:51.989
say the question and then see what you have to

00:34:51.989 --> 00:34:55.329
say about it. But sometimes when you represent

00:34:55.329 --> 00:34:58.030
Jesus, it's going to rub people the wrong way,

00:34:58.070 --> 00:34:59.389
and there's nothing you can do about that because

00:34:59.389 --> 00:35:03.949
you're representing Jesus. But sometimes we rub

00:35:03.949 --> 00:35:06.329
people the wrong way because we want to get our

00:35:06.329 --> 00:35:10.820
way or our perspective. Right. And we struggle

00:35:10.820 --> 00:35:13.900
with Paul's, if it's up to me, I'm going to live

00:35:13.900 --> 00:35:17.380
at peace with everyone. Yeah. How important is

00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:21.800
it to grow in favor with man as you're living

00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:25.079
in this world? Because clearly Jesus had the

00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:29.300
favor of many people. And it doesn't seem like

00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:32.840
he compromised himself to do it. Correct. My

00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:36.150
feeling on that, and this is... Something I've

00:35:36.150 --> 00:35:41.150
learned over many, many, many years is, yeah,

00:35:41.250 --> 00:35:44.949
you can aggravate people by being staunch on

00:35:44.949 --> 00:35:47.329
your positions and all, but what did Jesus do?

00:35:47.510 --> 00:35:51.550
He walked in peace and love. And we're here to

00:35:51.550 --> 00:35:56.010
love people, and we have to love first. We can

00:35:56.010 --> 00:36:01.079
argue second, but much of that is... Just the

00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:03.639
wisdom of knowing when and knowing how to process

00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:05.559
and react to that. We don't have to be liked

00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:07.960
by everybody. Everybody doesn't have to believe

00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:13.280
what we believe. But how do we grow in favor

00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.639
with man? By growing in favor with God. In the

00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:18.539
early church, in the book of Acts, which is going

00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:22.320
to be the sequel to the Gospel of Luke, Luke

00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:27.079
writes about how in the early church... They

00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:28.860
fellowshiped together. They ate together. They

00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:31.500
gave up for each other. They took care of one

00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:33.920
another. And if you read a lot of historical

00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:38.900
accounts through Eusebius or Flavius Justice,

00:36:39.179 --> 00:36:42.340
I forget what that guy's name is. Josephus, that's

00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:44.840
his name. I said Josephus the first time, and

00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:46.260
I'm definitely going to edit it to sound correct.

00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:47.639
No, I'm just kidding. I'm going to leave the

00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:50.320
edit in there so people will be like, ah, Ben's

00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:52.579
an idiot too. You're right, I am. You're learning

00:36:52.579 --> 00:36:54.820
with the rest of us. Josephus write about how

00:36:54.820 --> 00:36:58.059
the Roman emperors, they didn't like Christians,

00:36:58.179 --> 00:36:59.860
but they couldn't get rid of them because all

00:36:59.860 --> 00:37:02.300
the people liked them. So they would try to find

00:37:02.300 --> 00:37:05.739
different ways to persecute them. But it's really

00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:08.679
hard to exterminate a people that everybody likes

00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:10.769
because they're like, man, when I was... When

00:37:10.769 --> 00:37:13.730
my house burnt down. Who was there? They took

00:37:13.730 --> 00:37:16.150
care of me. There's even conversation about,

00:37:16.429 --> 00:37:18.210
this is going to be a little bit of a tangent,

00:37:18.289 --> 00:37:23.130
so just forewarning. There is a ritual that they

00:37:23.130 --> 00:37:25.610
reference in the book of Revelation at one of

00:37:25.610 --> 00:37:29.449
the churches where... there was a worship of

00:37:29.449 --> 00:37:31.130
a goddess and one of the things that was the

00:37:31.130 --> 00:37:33.670
ultimate sacrifice during their tribute was that

00:37:33.670 --> 00:37:36.210
you would basically super drunk during the festival

00:37:36.210 --> 00:37:38.869
and you would go and you would emasculate or

00:37:38.869 --> 00:37:43.070
cut yourself off completely your testicles on

00:37:43.070 --> 00:37:45.269
their altar as a sign of ultimate devotion to

00:37:45.269 --> 00:37:49.230
this goddess. And the blood that was spread and

00:37:49.230 --> 00:37:51.170
would go all over your clothes would actually

00:37:51.170 --> 00:37:53.429
be like the sign of your devotion. And if you

00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:55.889
didn't want to go and be the one to do that because...

00:37:57.019 --> 00:38:00.300
who wants to do that, you could go and if you

00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:01.679
were with somebody else who did it and their

00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.039
blood got on you, then you were also carried

00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.599
under that blood. This is referenced in one of

00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:09.739
the letters to the churches in Revelation, but

00:38:09.739 --> 00:38:12.079
there is archaeological evidence that in that

00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:15.159
city there is a church set up right behind them

00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:18.059
that what they would do is when these people

00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:19.739
would go and they would actually do this, they

00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:21.619
immediately would take them and start caring

00:38:21.619 --> 00:38:24.559
for them and putting them back together and helping

00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:29.619
them heal from their They were literally at the

00:38:29.619 --> 00:38:33.099
gates of hell. Yeah. Figuratively and literally.

00:38:33.340 --> 00:38:37.059
Right. Right? Meeting needs for people and loving

00:38:37.059 --> 00:38:38.900
them in the worst moment of decision. Because

00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:40.380
it doesn't get much worse than that. No, that's

00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:42.320
a tough one. That's a tough one. And it's something

00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:44.079
where, you know, when you're heavily inebriated,

00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:45.820
probably sounds like a great idea. You're like,

00:38:45.860 --> 00:38:47.559
oh, I'll have a God's favor forever. And then

00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:49.559
you wake up and you're like, I'm off balance.

00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:53.159
Yeah. Right? Not a good idea. But the Christians

00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:56.460
actually had a church. like a hospital that they

00:38:56.460 --> 00:38:58.380
had formed, and they found archaeological evidence

00:38:58.380 --> 00:38:59.780
of it, that they were set up right there taking

00:38:59.780 --> 00:39:03.159
care of people. And that's what the world needs

00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:06.519
to see. That's what it's all about, is they need

00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:08.699
to see the church acting like the church, what

00:39:08.699 --> 00:39:12.139
Jesus designed it to be. And they will know us

00:39:12.139 --> 00:39:15.400
by our love. That's the strongest statement that

00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:17.840
has resonated in my world for quite some time.

00:39:18.099 --> 00:39:22.030
Well, if people like us, great. And they should

00:39:22.030 --> 00:39:24.070
because we should be carrying an atmosphere of

00:39:24.070 --> 00:39:26.829
peace and justice with us through the Holy Spirit.

00:39:26.949 --> 00:39:29.550
And that should change the world around us. One

00:39:29.550 --> 00:39:31.690
of the places where I start to think about this

00:39:31.690 --> 00:39:35.170
is that I'm going to talk about and I want to

00:39:35.170 --> 00:39:37.289
stress that your politics on this don't matter

00:39:37.289 --> 00:39:39.809
as much to me as much as what your heart does

00:39:39.809 --> 00:39:42.510
in this situation. But one of the hot button

00:39:42.510 --> 00:39:47.329
topics in our country is immigration. And if

00:39:47.329 --> 00:39:49.769
you are really passionate about justice and immigration,

00:39:50.050 --> 00:39:52.010
one of the best things you could do is to go

00:39:52.010 --> 00:39:55.269
and advocate and help people legally process

00:39:55.269 --> 00:39:58.190
into the country. Yes, advocate towards changing

00:39:58.190 --> 00:40:01.309
laws to be in a certain situation. But also I

00:40:01.309 --> 00:40:04.530
know I have a friend of mine who was really passionate

00:40:04.530 --> 00:40:05.889
about people being able to come to the country

00:40:05.889 --> 00:40:09.369
legally. And so they work all year round to help

00:40:09.369 --> 00:40:11.429
people legally go through the process to get

00:40:11.429 --> 00:40:14.429
here. and they work they're largely pro bono

00:40:14.429 --> 00:40:16.289
it's it's it's uh they're kind of grant funded

00:40:16.289 --> 00:40:18.929
by like a couple of people but uh they work all

00:40:18.929 --> 00:40:22.250
the time and uh that is that's what love does

00:40:22.250 --> 00:40:24.329
that's what love does that's what love does um

00:40:24.329 --> 00:40:27.829
it actually steps into the chaos and it's incredibly

00:40:27.829 --> 00:40:29.170
difficult i was having a conversation with a

00:40:29.170 --> 00:40:30.829
friend i said i was like how do you do this without

00:40:30.829 --> 00:40:36.849
like gaining um anger towards people who are

00:40:36.849 --> 00:40:39.869
different than you Like, uh, people who won't,

00:40:39.869 --> 00:40:41.710
you know, they're like, oh, well you're either

00:40:41.710 --> 00:40:43.929
too liberal or too conservative. Like, how do

00:40:43.929 --> 00:40:46.170
you love people? And they're like, well, first

00:40:46.170 --> 00:40:48.329
of all, it's hard. And I was like, well, that's

00:40:48.329 --> 00:40:51.550
fair. Right. They're like, second of all, I'm

00:40:51.550 --> 00:40:53.449
not serving them. I'm serving Jesus. Correct.

00:40:53.670 --> 00:40:55.989
And also those same people are going like, I

00:40:55.989 --> 00:40:58.889
need to serve them too. And, uh, it is, it's

00:40:58.889 --> 00:41:00.750
from, I just, I love somebody's heart in that,

00:41:00.849 --> 00:41:04.289
you know? Um, by the way, this is not a endorsement

00:41:04.289 --> 00:41:06.809
of either political. agenda. This is talking

00:41:06.809 --> 00:41:08.730
about what does love do in the middle of chaos?

00:41:08.989 --> 00:41:12.809
Love your enemies. Yeah. And whatever your feelings

00:41:12.809 --> 00:41:16.519
are, we're called to... Walk in love, love our

00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:18.920
enemies, love our neighbors. That's what we're

00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:20.639
here to do. And what does that look like? Does

00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:24.639
that look like compromising the Bible? No. Do

00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:26.880
we compromise God in any way, shape, or form?

00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:29.940
No. But we do operate out of love, not hatred,

00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:32.420
not vindictiveness. We operate out of love, and

00:41:32.420 --> 00:41:35.199
we help those widows and orphans and people that

00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:36.840
need help. That's what the Word calls us to do.

00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:39.900
And I think it's a matter of growing in that

00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:45.860
capacity, too. I struggle loving people who I

00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:50.699
feel like are disingenuous. God's doing better

00:41:50.699 --> 00:41:54.099
with me, right? You might say that I'm growing

00:41:54.099 --> 00:41:58.340
in favor with God, but I'm getting to the point

00:41:58.340 --> 00:42:00.440
where I was actually having a conversation at

00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.099
our small group this last week, and I said, you

00:42:02.099 --> 00:42:04.260
know, somebody asked me, they said, what do you

00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:06.519
do when you just run up against an author that

00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:08.900
you can't stand? I was like, that's a Christian,

00:42:09.019 --> 00:42:12.400
right? And I said, you know, I used to. like

00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:14.679
want to go and do a review and trash their book

00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:16.880
and like talk about, you know, anything that

00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:19.059
you could do. Right. I was like, and then I realized

00:42:19.059 --> 00:42:20.579
from a pastor friend of mine, the best thing

00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:23.179
that I could do is to stop and pray for that

00:42:23.179 --> 00:42:25.579
person, ask God to bless them, to ask them to

00:42:25.579 --> 00:42:27.320
move in their life, to ask the Holy Spirit to

00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:29.719
take up residence in every single activity in

00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:31.960
their, in their life, to love them, to pour out

00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:34.280
my heart for them, to try to see them the way

00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:36.760
that God sees them, to realize that they belong,

00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:39.550
even if I don't like what they're doing. and

00:42:39.550 --> 00:42:41.730
that I want to see God's work accomplished, His

00:42:41.730 --> 00:42:43.610
kingdom come, His will be done in their life

00:42:43.610 --> 00:42:46.989
as it is in heaven. And when I shift that, suddenly

00:42:46.989 --> 00:42:48.809
these people that I'm very frustrated with, I

00:42:48.809 --> 00:42:52.650
don't suddenly agree with them, but now I care

00:42:52.650 --> 00:42:56.409
about them. And I think that's something that

00:42:56.409 --> 00:42:59.230
happens when you start to grow in God, or rather

00:42:59.230 --> 00:43:00.710
I would say that the kingdom of heaven starts

00:43:00.710 --> 00:43:05.679
to grow inside you. Yes. Right? Dallas Willard

00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:07.920
has a topic, and I'll just see what you think

00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.860
about this. He says, it's almost like God is

00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:12.719
not obsessed with you getting to heaven, but

00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:15.820
about putting heaven into you. That's absolutely

00:43:15.820 --> 00:43:18.320
correct. We need to be bringing it right here.

00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:21.159
We need to be manifesting the kingdom of God

00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:24.320
here on earth. And that's a hard thing to do

00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:26.719
when you start looking at all the tough scriptures

00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:29.400
like love your enemies, love your neighbors,

00:43:29.500 --> 00:43:32.280
even though they may not be like you. They may

00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:34.280
not believe like you, but the Bible doesn't.

00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:38.239
say throw rocks at them, it says love them. It

00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:41.960
does say throw rocks, but it's in a very different

00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:44.840
context. Very different context. But I also know,

00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.480
and I've struggled with that as well, because

00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:50.639
I've had some really harsh times with other Christians.

00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:53.559
I've been through, unfortunately, multiple cases

00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:56.059
in churches where you had a failure in church

00:43:56.059 --> 00:43:58.619
leadership, and even a couple of church splits.

00:44:00.369 --> 00:44:06.610
that left me damaged from that and having to

00:44:06.610 --> 00:44:11.030
work through that and not be mad at the people

00:44:11.030 --> 00:44:13.789
involved that made mistakes and not hate them,

00:44:13.849 --> 00:44:17.309
but to try to pray for them and pray that God

00:44:17.309 --> 00:44:20.409
will use them and restore their lives. All right,

00:44:20.449 --> 00:44:22.489
one more question for you, and then we'll wrap

00:44:22.489 --> 00:44:25.789
this up. It says that the teachers of the law

00:44:25.789 --> 00:44:28.179
were astonished by what Jesus had to say. Now,

00:44:28.179 --> 00:44:30.159
this is not going to be the last time people

00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:32.380
are amazed or astonished at what he has to say.

00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:39.519
More so than the miracles themselves, Israel,

00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:42.500
the Jewish people, seem to be astonished at what

00:44:42.500 --> 00:44:44.559
Jesus teaches because he teaches with authority,

00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:48.360
meaning that he reinterprets or helps them understand

00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:52.380
what it was always supposed to mean. What do

00:44:52.380 --> 00:44:57.719
you think about that? I think that he knew the

00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:01.440
back story of every story in the Bible. Every

00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:04.079
scripture he's reading, he knew the whole story.

00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:06.320
You know, that's what the Holy Spirit in him

00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:10.300
was. He knows the whole story. Some of that he

00:45:10.300 --> 00:45:14.960
probably learned as he grew in wisdom. He was

00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.659
there at the beginning. And so he knows the story.

00:45:17.699 --> 00:45:19.840
So he knew it better than the rabbis because

00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.860
he knew not their interpretation of it. He knew

00:45:22.860 --> 00:45:25.199
the real interpretation of it. And just like

00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:27.699
in years of my conversations, you bring up parallels

00:45:27.699 --> 00:45:29.320
and connections in the Bibles from the Old and

00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:30.960
New Testament to me. That's just a revelation

00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:34.260
going, wow, I never saw that. That's great. And

00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:37.340
that's what Jesus was doing to them. I think

00:45:37.340 --> 00:45:40.420
one of the things that really completely changed

00:45:40.420 --> 00:45:45.519
the way that I. look at scripture was when somebody

00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.119
said, you know, Jesus says that his lens is love

00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:49.940
God and love, love your neighbor as yourself.

00:45:50.219 --> 00:45:53.239
Like this, everything pivots on these two commands.

00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:54.639
That's not saying every other command doesn't

00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.639
matter, but they're all interpreted through this

00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:58.679
idea. Right. Right. Which by the way, we're going

00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:01.239
to talk about next week. And so what this meant

00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:03.139
is when I read the old Testament and I read these

00:46:03.139 --> 00:46:05.500
places where people say that God is fire and

00:46:05.500 --> 00:46:08.679
brimstone, but then I, Jesus tells me he's the

00:46:08.679 --> 00:46:11.460
perfect representation of the father. But then

00:46:11.460 --> 00:46:14.019
I'm confronted with this idea from my upbringing,

00:46:14.260 --> 00:46:17.860
and by the way, good people, but that God was

00:46:17.860 --> 00:46:20.039
mad and he has to pour out his wrath and that

00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:24.079
he's basically holding back his anger, but then

00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:28.099
Jesus steps in, right? Which there is a peace

00:46:28.099 --> 00:46:31.860
that's there, correct. But then when I shifted

00:46:31.860 --> 00:46:33.500
my view and I started reading the Old Testament,

00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:36.360
I was like, wait, how long did God hold back

00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:40.219
from doing that? It was two verses for me, but

00:46:40.219 --> 00:46:44.219
it was 40 years? Yeah. 40 years is a long time

00:46:44.219 --> 00:46:48.519
to withhold judgment. Right. I'm reminded of,

00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:50.380
I'm just going to go back to this, talking about

00:46:50.380 --> 00:46:52.840
what Jesus taught as opposed to the miracle itself,

00:46:53.059 --> 00:46:56.690
right? A lot of times we will focus on things

00:46:56.690 --> 00:46:58.809
like when Joshua comes back in the conquest,

00:46:58.849 --> 00:47:00.170
and they're like, well, what about when they

00:47:00.170 --> 00:47:01.789
came through and they wiped everybody else out?

00:47:01.949 --> 00:47:03.389
I was like, first of all, there's a context to

00:47:03.389 --> 00:47:05.610
that, and we should talk about it. I was like,

00:47:05.630 --> 00:47:07.429
think of that as the miracle, right? Like the

00:47:07.429 --> 00:47:11.969
land is being ended, and you have Jericho, walls

00:47:11.969 --> 00:47:15.369
falling down, all these miracles happen. In the

00:47:15.369 --> 00:47:17.750
book of Genesis, God has a conversation with

00:47:17.750 --> 00:47:21.610
Abram as he's in a deep sleep, and he says, you're

00:47:21.610 --> 00:47:23.010
going to go to a land that's not your own for

00:47:23.010 --> 00:47:26.050
400 plus years. which is Egypt, right? And I'm

00:47:26.050 --> 00:47:27.989
going to bring you back here and you're going

00:47:27.989 --> 00:47:31.210
to take, you're going to occupy this land, but

00:47:31.210 --> 00:47:34.349
you can't have it now because the sin of the

00:47:34.349 --> 00:47:37.090
Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.

00:47:38.429 --> 00:47:40.570
So this is where Joshua is going to come back

00:47:40.570 --> 00:47:41.969
and he's going to lead the conquest of these

00:47:41.969 --> 00:47:45.849
lands. 400 years before that, God says, you can't

00:47:45.849 --> 00:47:48.610
have it now because their sin hasn't reached

00:47:48.610 --> 00:47:50.929
its full measure. Now, what do you think is happening

00:47:50.929 --> 00:47:53.300
in those 400 years? Because God hasn't placed

00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:55.619
judgment, but there's child sacrifice, there's

00:47:55.619 --> 00:47:57.900
idolatry, there's wickedness. There's literally

00:47:57.900 --> 00:47:59.860
nothing good. Yeah, there's nothing good happening.

00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:05.519
But God waits 400 years. Right. You know, we

00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:06.900
don't have writings from the Amorites, but I

00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:08.420
can't imagine that God's not sending prophets

00:48:08.420 --> 00:48:10.380
and he's not sending warnings and he's not sending

00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:12.420
these corrections because we see that all throughout

00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:14.420
Israel's history. And we see that even with other

00:48:14.420 --> 00:48:16.960
places like Nineveh, he sends Jonah to tell them.

00:48:17.059 --> 00:48:21.329
Right, he does. Don't do this. How do you have

00:48:21.329 --> 00:48:27.429
patience for 400 years? 400 years. That's not

00:48:27.429 --> 00:48:29.250
an angry, vengeful God. That's giving people

00:48:29.250 --> 00:48:32.829
opportunity to change. Yeah. It feels more like

00:48:32.829 --> 00:48:35.110
a God who's doing everything he can to get you

00:48:35.110 --> 00:48:37.769
to do the right thing. Yeah. And I think part

00:48:37.769 --> 00:48:39.929
of where we struggle with this is, this is going

00:48:39.929 --> 00:48:41.809
back to Dallas Willard again, and I believe it

00:48:41.809 --> 00:48:45.340
was in his book, The Great Omission. he makes

00:48:45.340 --> 00:48:47.739
a comment and he says, the problem is we read

00:48:47.739 --> 00:48:49.500
the Bible and we think the worst thing that can

00:48:49.500 --> 00:48:55.420
happen is that we die. Right. And, uh, I would

00:48:55.420 --> 00:48:57.679
argue that one of the things that the Bible is

00:48:57.679 --> 00:48:59.639
really telling us is that the worst thing that

00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:01.179
can happen to us isn't that we would die. It's

00:49:01.179 --> 00:49:05.179
that we would never truly live. Yeah. That we

00:49:05.179 --> 00:49:07.260
are already in a lot of, like to quote Paul,

00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:12.119
we're already dead. And God wants us to come

00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:13.860
alive. And he's giving us a chance to come alive.

00:49:14.019 --> 00:49:15.480
And he's inviting us into this relationship,

00:49:15.619 --> 00:49:18.380
this kingdom of God. And it's ultimately going

00:49:18.380 --> 00:49:19.940
to be accessible through the death, burial, and

00:49:19.940 --> 00:49:21.599
resurrection of Jesus. But he was even doing

00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:23.199
it in the Old Testament, inviting. And we had

00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:25.719
glimpses, just glimpses of what was going on.

00:49:27.219 --> 00:49:31.699
I just love that the people in this day, we would

00:49:31.699 --> 00:49:33.659
be like, oh, watch Jesus turn water to wine.

00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:36.380
Ah, look at that lame person. Now they're walking.

00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:38.420
And they're like, do you hear what he did with

00:49:38.420 --> 00:49:42.550
Torah? Yeah. Did you hear that he said, you know

00:49:42.550 --> 00:49:44.989
that don't murder thing? It's not just about

00:49:44.989 --> 00:49:47.090
not murdering. It's actually not harboring anger

00:49:47.090 --> 00:49:49.469
towards people. And he says that was the intention

00:49:49.469 --> 00:49:53.550
all along. Did you know that not committing adultery

00:49:53.550 --> 00:49:56.110
was always supposed to lead to us thinking about

00:49:56.110 --> 00:50:01.730
people well and not sexualizing them? Yeah. He

00:50:01.730 --> 00:50:03.550
knows the story. He knows the whole story. He

00:50:03.550 --> 00:50:05.510
knows the intent and the meaning. And that's

00:50:05.510 --> 00:50:08.780
why he could teach with such wisdom. Just fascinating.

00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:10.539
But he also kept it very simple, too, because

00:50:10.539 --> 00:50:13.039
we don't seem to grasp the complex ones quickly.

00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:16.559
So next week we're going to talk about the silent

00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:17.559
years. We're going to talk about some of the

00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:19.840
rabbinic system. And you'll kind of see some

00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:21.880
of these connections with boy Jesus having these

00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:24.280
conversations. He's going to be following a rabbi

00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:26.179
probably at some capacity. We don't know because

00:50:26.179 --> 00:50:28.940
they don't write about it. But it definitely

00:50:28.940 --> 00:50:30.920
feels like Luke's kind of setting this up. Right.

00:50:32.219 --> 00:50:34.000
There's a specific reason that this story is

00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:35.719
in there. Yeah, and so you're going to kind of

00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:37.179
feel the hints around that. And as we talk about

00:50:37.179 --> 00:50:38.980
the rabbinic system, you're going to see a lot

00:50:38.980 --> 00:50:40.780
of these characteristics of what was going on

00:50:40.780 --> 00:50:43.000
during that time carry into the teachings of

00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:45.119
Jesus, where he's using the medium of the day,

00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:48.440
median of the day, to actually have these conversations

00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:51.679
and orchestrate these things. He's a Jewish Messiah.

00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:53.920
He's teaching them out of what they know. Yeah,

00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:57.980
exactly. Any other thoughts? No, this is good.

00:50:58.059 --> 00:50:59.820
All right. Well, I want to thank you for being

00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:03.260
here. We'll probably have, because it is this

00:51:03.260 --> 00:51:05.920
time of year where, like I said, Spencer, we

00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:09.860
love Spencer, but he has a lot of work right

00:51:09.860 --> 00:51:12.599
now. We've got a lot going on. And so we're going

00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:14.539
to probably have Les a couple more times and

00:51:14.539 --> 00:51:17.880
interdisperse throughout. Hopefully one of these

00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:19.039
times I'm going to try to get you and Spencer

00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:21.579
to talk and not me. Oh, that'll be all right.

00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:23.460
That'll be all right, too. All right. Until next

00:51:23.460 --> 00:51:55.519
time. and Facebook at loveandcontext. Love and

00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:57.760
Context. Be sure to hit that follow button and

00:51:57.760 --> 00:51:59.840
join our growing community. Thanks for being

00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:01.719
part of the Love and Context family. Remember,

00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:04.360
love is at the heart of it all. Until next time,

00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:06.599
keep seeking wisdom, embracing love and living

00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:07.960
out your faith in today's world.