Welcome to Season 3 of Love & Context. This season,
we're exploring the life of Jesus step -by -step
and uncovering what His story teaches us about
loving God and others. Here on Love & Context,
we're all about having real conversations about
how to live out that love in practical, everyday
ways, and understanding the Bible in its full
context. We're so glad you're here. Let's dive
into Season 3 of Love & Context. Welcome back
to the Love and Context podcast. Thank you for
having me, Ben. We are welcoming in our good
friend, our good friend. I say our, but I'm here
by myself with you. So Les Kronk, he is going
to be co -hosting with me today. That's going
to be fun. Appreciate it. So we have not made
it a secret at any point on the podcast that
both Spencer and I have regular full -time jobs.
This is a hobby and something that we love doing,
but like most hobbies. It does not take precedent
over regular work. Gotcha. And so Spencer is
in a season that I'm just going to call overtime.
So you actually recently. Retired. I did recently
retire the first of the year and I'm enjoying
the freedom to make my own schedule, which I'm
keeping quite busy actually, but it's fun to
have. That's actually what I hear from most people
when they retire is they retire and then they
go, oh, look how busy I am. How did I get all
this done before I was retired? Well, so how
long were you at your last career? 40 years.
40 years. So there's 40 years of like things
you wanted to do that you couldn't do. Correct.
That you got to do before you get to the age
where you can't do them anymore, right? Yep.
Yeah, I've had projects stacked up in my garage.
There was one particular furniture refinishing
project that sat there for 12 years waiting for
me to have time. I just finished it. It came
out great. That's awesome. I just couldn't touch
it until now, so it's nice. I got a little backlog
I'm working through. Well, in those 40 years,
you didn't have time to go on a podcast. No.
Yeah, so now you have time to be on a podcast.
Oh, I do, don't I? It'll be fun. All right, so
we kind of informed you, but we were going through
the life of Jesus this season. Obviously, first
season, we were in Torah. We had you last year
during Spiritual Gifts, and we talked about...
prophecy and all these different things. But
this year, we're going through the life of Jesus
chronologically. And last week, though, technically,
we recorded it after this episode. I'm spoiling.
for people who assume that we do everything in
order. Last week, you guys listened, we're talking
about the visiting Magi, right? And so now we're
going to be talking, we're going to be in Luke
2, verses 41 through the end of the chapter.
We're going to be talking about Jesus at the
temple, right? It's an interesting story. So
I'm going to read it first. If you are reading
along, this is NIV. If you don't like NIV, that's
fine, but I'm still going to read in NIV. So
here we go. It says, Every year Jesus' parents
went to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover.
When he was 12 years old, they went up to the
festival according to the custom. After the festival
was over, when his parents were returning home,
the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. But
they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their
company, they traveled on for a day. Then they
began looking for him among their relatives and
friends. When they did not find him, they went
back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three
days, they found him in the temple courts sitting
among the teachers, listening to them and asking
them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed
at his understanding and his answers. When his
parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother
said to him, Son, why have you treated us like
this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching
for you. So one of the first things I like to
point out there is we'd say that they were looking
for him for three days, and so people latch onto
those three days, but they also traveled a day.
Day out, day back, day in Jerusalem. So that's
five days, right? So you have one day out, one
day back. Three days in Jerusalem searching.
So that's actually five days, not three days.
It's just the three days of searching. Right.
Which also begs the question, why is Jerusalem
so busy? Which is actually a great kind of jump
into what this is, the conversation about what's
going on. So it's the Passover, celebration of
the Exodus. And all the Jews during this one
will actually come to Jerusalem to celebrate
the Passover. Now, tip, tick. I'm sorry. Well,
I can speak. Technically, it's actually just
the males that are supposed to go, and you can
just send part of your household. But typically,
the families will go, and they'll just en masse
go. And everybody doesn't make it every year
because life and things, but generally, you're
supposed to go every year. And it's one of those
big festivals where you come together, and you
think of it like the big church party. Yeah.
Big church potluck where you celebrate Easter.
It's a celebration of just the magnanimous nature
of God. One of the things I have talked about
in the past with festivals, why they're so important,
is that if you don't take time to remember, you're
definitely going to forget. Yeah. Like, if you
don't actually have built in your routine, like,
oh, I'm going to remember. I'm going to make
these things a part of my schedule. The Ten Commandments
opens up with God saying, I am the Lord your
God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.
And why does he specify that? Because if he doesn't
remind you, you're probably going to forget.
In fact, after they're given the Ten Commandments,
Moses goes down the mountain and they're worshiping
a golden calf where they say, here is the God
who brought you out of Egypt. Yeah. And that
was 40 days and they'd forgotten. Yeah. I mean,
it was not so long. Right. Yeah. This actually
wasn't the only festival that people came out
to participate in. There's also the Shavuot,
which we call Pentecost. Right. And there is
the celebration of tabernacles. And women and
children often, though, went for the Passover.
So Nazareth to Jerusalem would take several days.
That's why we said day in, day out. With families
and all the different people, you probably have
a couple hundred people traveling. It would be
easy to lose sight of your kids. Yeah, it does
specify that they looked amongst the relatives
and people there. So they obviously had a good
-sized crowd. I know from a parent's standpoint,
you're thinking, how did you miss your kid? But
that wasn't unusual, especially for a 12 -year
-old kid who's actually coming of age. culture
at that time. Yeah, I think probably 12 feels
like young for us, but 12 is really old for them,
right? Like 12 -year -olds in turn -of -the -century
Israel culture is not the same as 12 -year -olds
today. Correct. You know, I was thinking about
Pastor Nick's oldest son, he's almost 12, right?
And I would probably not feel good about him
being missing for five days. I have an 11 -year
-old grandson. I would not feel great about it.
But on the flip side of that, I don't know, have
you ever had a really big, like, family gathering,
like when you guys had a reunion. Yes. And there's
like the cousins and the brothers and sisters
and like the littles will just run off with the
other guys. They absolutely do. And you're not
worried about it because you might not even see
them for like eight or nine hours. Correct. I
feel like it's very similar. Like we have the
same concept, just slightly different, you know?
And when you think about even like the way that
Israel, Israelite culture and Middle Eastern
culture during that time, you have families a
lot of times that live in like houses connected
to each other. Right? So, like, aunt and uncle
still live in the house. It's multi -generational.
Yeah. And so, like, it's not surprising that
they would be like, you know who we haven't seen
for a few days? Yeah, right. Jesus has been missing.
I'm not sure where he went. But not surprising.
Jesus finds himself in the middle of the temple.
I think sometimes the temple is a little bit
difficult for us. We had Torah, we talked through
Torah, and we talked about the construction of
the temple, but I think a lot of times we think
temple, we think just regular church service.
But that's not necessarily how the temple was
viewed. It's a place where God's presence dwells.
And so, yes, you go there for service. Yes, you
go there for sacrifice. Yes, you go there for
worship. But it's also where the scribes and
the rabbis, they sit around and they talk and
they debate and they have conversations. And
they talk about Torah and they talk about how
to follow God, especially during this time being
a very rabbinic -driven time. They're having
these conversations. And so it's almost more
of like a college foyer. Right. Right. Where
you got a bunch of like scholars just sitting
around having these conversations. You might
have professors that are lounging about having
chats, casual chats with their students. They
might even have done podcasts if they had the
technology. Yeah, exactly. Actually, in ancient
in ancient Israelite. pictures, you'll see them
with this podcast equipment going around and
actually recording. But that's exactly what they
would be doing, having these conversations. And
so Jesus finds himself right in the middle of
that. Now, you and I have had this conversation
before about Israelite schooling system. So Jesus
is 12, which means that he's already gone to
Bet Sefer. That's the school they typically do
from age five to... eight nine there's some there's
some debate about the ages so if one of you has
a different opinion like i love that journey
for you right it's okay um like five or five
to nine they're going to be learning all of torah
right so uh memorizing by rote by listening um
they might have some interpretive elements but
largely they're just memorizing scripture right
Uh, usually at that point, unless the student
is particularly gifted, they're going to go back
to the family and they're going to, that's going
to be their schooling up until that point. And
then they're going to start learning at the dad's
trade. Um, there is a, and there's some conversation
about whether it's Bet Midrash or Bet Talmid,
but I'm just going to say Bet Midrash. Um, they're
going to, um, learn at the rest of the Bible.
So if the kids continue to go on from age 10
to 12, they're going to learn everything else.
All the prophets, some commentary on the prophets,
some interpretive elements from rabbinic conversations.
Those are going to be the fun things for them
to do. And so Jesus is right at this age 12 where
he would have been at towards the end of Bet
Midrash. And it's not surprising to me that he
finds himself in the temple talking to a bunch
of rabbinic professionals. Because at that point,
if Jesus is going to go and be a rabbi, he would
actually have to go and follow a rabbi and learn
that rabbi's positions. This is the whole thing
about come follow me. We've talked about it on
the podcast a number of times, and I can't remember
which episodes. I'll link them in the show notes.
But we've talked about it before. But he's having
these conversations with these professionals.
about scripture, about Torah, and they're asking
him questions, and he's answering, and he's asking
them questions, and they're answering, having
this debate back and forth, and they're just
surprised at how knowledgeable he is, which,
by the way, is a huge mark in his favor. Correct.
Right? Huge. And it's just not surprising to
me that Jesus is there having that conversation,
because if he's going to be a rabbi, that's the
next step. You actually have to go and find a
rabbi and say that you would want to follow them.
Um, which by the way is why Jesus is strange.
He calls his people, not the other way around.
Right. Um, now ultimately, obviously a rabbi
calls no matter what, but usually you go and
petition the rabbi to be a follower of theirs
and they basically test whether or not that's
true. Um, there is a quote from Marty Solomon,
my friend Marty on the Bema podcast. He says,
um, a rabbi. being a Talmudite, a disciple of
a rabbi means knowing what the rabbi knows in
order to do what the rabbi does in order to be
just like the rabbi in his walk with God. Okay.
Meaning that when a rabbi takes on his disciples,
he's saying, I can make you into myself or better,
which is a very tall bar, which is why you don't
choose the rabbi, the rabbi, you come to the
rabbi, but he tests you to see if he can actually
do something with you. Right. Right. What do
you think about that? Well, I think that's right
on. That's why he's there. I know a lot of people
have questions about you've got a 12 -year -old
kid that's missing and you find him in the temple.
I know if I was looking for my 11 -year -old
grandson, I'm going to be looking in the park.
I'm going to be looking in the pool. I'm going
to be looking at other places. I'm not going
to think to look in the church that he goes to.
Maybe even the market, somewhere they're selling
food. Right, exactly. I guess he's been gone
five days. Yeah, he's been out on his own for
five days. Where's he sleeping? Where's he eating?
Did somebody take him in and take care of him?
Those are all parental questions. Do I have extended
family? in Jerusalem that he might have gone
to. Right, and it's not like they could have
called the parents and said, hey, he's staying
with us. You've got to go back and find him and
figure that out. No group text messages going
out. Podcasting equipment, but no phones. Yeah,
there you go. But those are interesting thoughts
and questions, why he's there. But yeah, from
the Jewish perspective, it's understandable at
age 12 he's just coming into that time where
he would want to do that, and that's his ministry.
Yeah. Well, and it's a unique place for him to
be. He hasn't done his bar mitzvah. Typically,
that's at 13. That's where you officially become
a man. But he's there and he's just having conversations
with these Jewish leaders. What we actually see
here, too, is these are actually Jesus' first
recorded words at age 12. Why were you looking
for me anywhere else? Didn't you know I'd be
in my father's house? And that's an interesting
statement because there's... a lot of silence
in his first 12 years. And then after this point
in time, all the way up till he hits 30. So there's
a lot of blank spots in there that obviously
lots of questions and speculations. And there's
been some non -biblical stories about what was
going on in his life at that point in time. But
what was his life like? His parents were obviously
good Jews. Hold on a second. We knocked your
mic over. We did. Let's do that. There we go.
Okay. His parents were good Jews and did all
the things that they were supposed to be doing.
He was learning all of that. What indications
did he give as a child that he knew his divinity?
And so you wonder why didn't his parents look
there first? He's still a 12 -year -old kid in
our minds. But what led him to go to obviously
draw the spirit? Well, and you touched on something
which I think is an interesting conversation
that we have in, and I'm just going to call it
Christendom, right? How much does Jesus know
as Messiah, as Son of God, versus how much does
he learn, right? I've had conversations with
people, and by the way, whatever opinion you
hold on that, that's totally fine. We're just
probably going to disagree. I've had people who
have this opinion that while Jesus is in human
form, he's also controlling the cosmos at the
same time. And I don't think that the biblical
text lends itself to that. And specifically,
one of the places that I point out about that
is that Luke comments that Jesus returns back.
He grows in wisdom and stature and in favor with
both God and man. Right. So obviously he didn't
know everything. Yeah. So obviously there's some
capacity where he has to learn. Right. Right.
And, uh, and it makes people kind of uncomfortable,
but I was like, that's part of being in with
us dwelling with us is actually going through
the process of what we go through too. Um, cause
I had this conversation and I carried it to an
absurd length. So just. Sometimes I have a tendency
to argue for argument's sake, which is not a
great Christ -likeness, but it is a characteristic
that I've been trying to iron out of my flesh.
But that also is a strong point. It makes you
dig in and really figure things out, which I
truly appreciate. So this, I said, because I
said, well, so in your opinion, then, does Jesus
just come out and if he's a baby, he's like,
he's like, mother, I must feed. right you know
as like does he immediately potty train himself
as soon as he's physically able to get his body
to do it and you know there's i mean these absurd
absurd things i'm carrying it obviously way to
the point of being absurd is that well no a reasonable
person understands from a reading of the biblical
text which doesn't cover everything uh let's
be honest there's 20 20 plus chapters in each
book uh sorry mark is shorter so let's just call
it average of 20 chapters per book right um for
a guy who lived for 34 years. Yeah. There's not
a whole lot that's being covered there. There's
a lot missing, yeah. Yeah, you're not gonna cover,
I mean, we could write, you know, 30 books alone
on what happened this year. Mm -hmm. Right? And
there's, because there's just so much that's
going on. And yet Jesus has, so the information
we are given, we have to be like, okay, why is
this here? Right. Now, it's interesting. It says
Jesus grows in both wisdom, so that's intellectually.
Yep. stature, that's physically. He also grows
in favor with God, spiritually, and with man,
socially, right? So as he's growing, it says
Jesus goes home with his parents, and he's growing
physically, mentally, spiritually, and socially,
right? And if that's important for the Son of
God. Kind of think it'd be important for us too.
Kind of think it'd be important for us too. Dials
it right in. Yeah. Now, there is a connection
here that I love. You're familiar with the character
of Samuel in the Old Testament? Yep. Yeah. So
Samuel, when he's a child, Hannah gives birth
to Samuel and gives him to the temple. And it
says that he wakes up and God's calling his name
and Eli is like, okay. I figured out what's going
on. God's just calling to you. Just tell him
that you hear him and you're ready to go. But
God gives Samuel his instructions on what he's
going to be doing in his life. And then it makes
an interesting comment. It says, this boy Samuel
grew in both favor with God and man. It's the
exact same quote. Same quote. Right? And I don't
think that's an accident from Luke, right, when
he's compiling this. Now, we talked about in
a few episodes ago, we talked about how Luke
is a compilation of 500 plus witnesses that he
interviewed. Right. Right. So he's got all these
witnesses and first accounts because he wasn't
there. He wasn't there. No. Well, he was there.
He wasn't there, right? And so he's compiling
all these. So is he taking this from his mother?
Is he taking it from other people who were in
the temple? Maybe one of the rabbis he was debating
with? Who knows? Multiple times in Luke, he mentions
in this particular verse, and his mother pondered
these things in her heart. Yeah. And that, to
me, kind of reflects on she remembered this.
Yeah. And he does that in other cases, too, where
he's... interviewing somebody and they had remembered
all this. Luke also does a really good job of
connecting what's going on with what was happening
in the Old Testament too. And so when he says
this boy Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, gaining
favor with both God and men, he's also subtly
to all the Jewish listeners telling them, hey,
you remember how Samuel was a prophet leading
to a Davidic king, right? You know, also Jesus
is a prophet. one of the greatest prophets that's
ever going to be. Also, he's going to be a Davidic
king, right? There's these subtle imageries around
the corner that they're like, okay, I see where
you're going with that. Actually, I think it's
one of those things. I don't think anybody at
the time saw it and acknowledged it. You can
look back and see the clues that were being given.
Yeah. Well, and there's actually in this story
and prior to this, there's actually a lot of
connections in early Luke. To Hannah and Samuel.
For example, Hannah is barren. Right. And she
goes to the temple and she prays. And Eli tells
her that God hurt her. She's going to have the
kid. When she has the kid, she sings a song.
And then she brings and dedicates the kid at
the temple. The kid is found at the temple, raised
at the temple. The things are going on there.
In the story of Jesus. God or the angel shows
up and tells Mary, hey, you're going to be pregnant
with a child, right? So she didn't have a child.
Now she's going to have a child. Once she actually
gives, not when she gives birth, when she's having
this conversation with Elizabeth, she sings what
we call the Magnificent, right? She sings a song
of praise to God, mimicking what's going on with
Hannah. And then we have this story here where
Jesus is in a temple again. And also we have
this direct connection to the story of Samuel.
So there's a lot. And that's just a few. Honestly,
if you are a nerd out person, this is a fun one
to nerd out on. So there's a lot of connections,
especially if you actually go into the two songs,
the song of Hannah and the song of Mary. There's
a lot of really interesting connections there.
It's not an accident that those feel like they
are telling the same story in different ways.
Um, it's actually one of my favorite things.
So, uh, I think you and I were talking about,
I was reading a textual critic the other day
and he was writing in his stories and he talks
about how Matthew says this, but Luke says this.
And, uh, like there's discrepancy in the way
that they're talking about these things. I was
like, well, no, they're actually talking about
two different things. Right. And, uh, that's
one of the problems with textual criticism is
that they try to, they try to harmonize things.
Rather than actually, if you don't believe that
the text is inspired, you're going to look, just
be like, why doesn't it connect? Right. If you
believe it's inspired, you're going to ask questions
of like, why would you say it this way if you
said it this way over here? Right. And then you
actually find the connection you're supposed
to be looking for. Right. And it makes a big
difference. And so much of that connection is
Old Testament to New Testament. So in a reoccurring
theme that's going to happen throughout Jesus's
life, something from the Old Testament that is
taking place, he's going to step into and be
the greater version of. So, and this is just
an example, is that Jesus is the greater Samuel,
right? He's going to be the king, but he's going
to be the greater Davidic king, right? He's a
second Moses, but he's a greater Moses, right?
And he is the firstborn, like Israel was, but
he's the greater firstborn, right? There's actually
like this commentary because it says both in
Isaiah and Hosea that Israel is God's firstborn.
Right? By the way, we're going to be talking
about Nicodemus in a few weeks, and he makes
a comment. He says, for God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only son. Who did Nicodemus
think that Jesus was talking about? Probably
Israel. Ah, right. Right? The point of Israel
was that all the world was supposed to be blessed.
Right. It's why Jesus being a Jewish Messiah
matters a lot, and understanding that matters
a lot. Yep. You know? So this whole thing of
Jesus is stepping into this role. So he's the
Torah made flesh. He is. Later in his life, at
his resurrection, there's going to be a chair
of him seated at either end of his tomb. There's
going to be the wrapped clothes that are there
that have like... Sorry, there's so much going
on that comes back to the Ark of the Covenant,
right? Because there's cherubim on either side,
and Jesus is the bread of life, right? I am the
bread that came down from heaven, which, by the
way, was in the Ark of the Covenant. And so there's
going to be all these different things that are
connecting and making the Jewish brains go...
And then we as Americans come in and we go, huh,
what does that mean? Right, because we don't
have that context. How many weird theologies
have come because we don't know what something
means, we don't go back to the context, and then
we just make up how we think it means. Right.
Right? Way too much. Way too often. Well, you
know, and my thoughts just focusing on the story
itself, the feelings and trying to get into a
biblical story, and what were his parents like,
what was... culturally going on. And we understand
that from, you know, as we talked about, there
was a large group. That's why they, you know,
didn't miss him right away. And now they find
him and they're a little bit unhappy with him.
A little bit. A little bit unhappy with him.
And his response is like, why wouldn't, you know,
why wouldn't you expect me to be here in my father's
house? Yeah. And that was kind of a statement
from them that, you know, because Mary comes
in, his mom, and says, your father and I were
missing you. And he says, I'm in my father's
house. And so there's an acknowledgement right
there that he knows who his father is. So in
some capacity, he knows who he is. Right. But
he's also growing in wisdom. Right. And it's
one of those reasons why... So there's a fancy
term called hyperstatic union. Are you familiar
with that? No. So Jesus is fully man. Okay. And
he's fully God. Right, right. And there's a hyper
static union of the two. Okay. And so he never
stops being fully man and fully God. Yet when
he's walking the earth, he's always man empowered
by the spirit of God. Right. But he's still God.
And so like there's this. There's this conversation
in the church where people try to define too
far one way or too far the other, and the other
person looks across the aisle and says, heretic,
right? Because of how you define that. And the
reality is none of us completely understand how
that works. We know that Jesus is fully man,
and we know that he's fully God. Right. We also
know that whatever he did on the earth, he invited
us to follow in his steps. Correct. Which we
couldn't do in our brokenness. No. Right? It
had to be through the redeemed work and trusting
in the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, empowerment
of the Holy Spirit. We now are able to walk in
that, but we are called to go and be just like
him, not because we're God. Right. Because he
did it as a man empowered by God while still
being God. He did it by being filled with the
Holy Spirit. Right. And he was the perfect version
of that. I mean, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
are one. And so he had the greatest unity of
the Holy Spirit. We're striving for that. But
we can walk with that same spirit that empowered
him. That's what he said. Yeah. There's going
to be a story we're going to talk about in a
couple of weeks right before he goes out into
the desert to have his to -do with the devil.
That's probably not the right way to say it,
but that's how I'm saying it. Yep. But as he
is being baptized by John the Baptist, the Spirit
is going to descend like a dove, and it's going
to rest on him and stay. Right. That's significant
when we start looking at the Old Testament. I'm
not going to get into it today, but when we get
into that episode, it's significant that it stays,
and it stays with him the entire time that he
goes. And we're not going to get too deep into
that because there's a long way to go in Jesus'
life. Sure. But there is, coming back to the
story, there is some capacity that Jesus is like,
okay, I know who I am. Right. Right? And it doesn't
particularly feel arrogant. It doesn't particularly
feel like, it doesn't even feel like he's challenging
them. It's more like he's confused. He's like,
where else would I be? Right. But then it also
says that he was obedient to his parents and
went home with them and then spent the next—he
was 12 years, and we don't hear again from him
until he's 30, basically. Yeah, 18 years between
that. 18 years in there. Which, by the way, our
next episode, we're going to speculate and talk
about just some of what's going on during that
time. We're actually going to talk about some
things that were happening historically, but
we're also going to talk about some rabbinic
things that were happening during that time that
might give us some ideas of how Jesus was growing.
of how he jumps into his ministry afterwards.
Right. That's an interesting gap. Yeah. And it'd
be interesting to talk about. I always think
it's interesting, though. So one of the reasons
that, yes, the Gospels are history, but they're
Gospels, which means that they're good news.
They're trying to communicate a truth about the
kingdom of God, right? If you talk about the
word for good news is euangelion, which is a
fantastic word. Alexander the Great had a euangelion.
He says, you know, that this kingdom of Alexander
is going to look like this. And then he kind
of gives his missive, his manifesto, if you will,
of what that's going to be. Caesar Augustus had
a euangelion. Every new Caesar had a euangelion.
And it says, this is the good news of the kingdom
of Caesar Augustus, right? This is the good news
of the kingdom of Julius Caesar, right? And so
Jesus and the disciples step into this to say,
hey, we also have a euangelion. It's just not
what you expect. And so when you have Matthew,
Mark, Luke, and John, they all are trying to
communicate different perspectives on this good
news that is Jesus Christ. And so is it history?
Yes. But is it primarily history? No. Like it
has historic elements. Did these things happen?
Yes, of course they did. But they're shaped for
you to understand about what is going on in the
kingdom of God. Because otherwise, 12 to 30?
is a pretty significant amount of time to know
nothing about. And, I mean, to be fair, we also
know very little about 2 to 12. Yes. Right? And
if you had a historic book, I was actually, I
took a class on Jonathan Edwards. Okay. And we
had a whole chapter, two chapters, about his
childhood and growing up and his family and his
family influence and all these different things
about his history because we're telling history.
Right. Like the biblical authors like yeah, yeah,
we're just gonna skip to the next part. They're
teaching about the kingdom of God Yeah, that's
what it's really about. You know Jesus bringing
in the kingdom of God It becomes problematic
When you ask the wrong questions and then take
the answers that you get. Mm -hmm You're always
gonna get the wrong answers if you ask the wrong
questions, right? So I think a lot of times the
people and the people people in general will
come to the Bible and they'll ask the questions
of did Jesus really exist? Did this thing really
happen? And they're expecting the Bible to supply
those answers, but the authors don't question
that. So they're not answering questions that
they, they're never going to answer questions
they never asked. If you were Luke, for example,
like Luke knows thousands of people who interacted
with Jesus. He's not wondering whether or not
Jesus is a real person. Correct. He's also not
wondering about the power of the Holy Spirit
or whether people got healed because it's literally
happening in his day. Yeah, he's seeing it. It's
an everyday thing. I'm walking with Jesus. Like
John doesn't have to talk about, like he does
because he has to deal with some things that
are going on later in history. But John doesn't
have to question whether or not Jesus was fully
man and fully God. He knows completely who Jesus
was. And he also knows that all these things
that Jesus did, he's like, there's more that
I could tell you than could possibly show up
in every book we've ever written. Exactly. But
these things are really important for you to
understand because you need to be able to trust
that who he was is who we say he is, and that
when you trust him, these things are going to
bring you to the kingdom of God. And they selected
all four gospels, selected stories that reinforce
that. So with that in mind, with this story,
why is this so significant? Because it's the
only gospel that actually deals with this. Right.
Right. Why is this story so significant? I think
and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but but
Luke was the one that really dug in and he interviewed
people and he wrote a lot of details, you know,
and he figured out a lot of research, a lot of
facts and what he put into his. Yeah. His is
definitely going to be more universal in scope,
too. Yes. I wonder if there's also not some capacity
because Luke sometimes includes some details
that other people don't that. He's a doctor,
a learned person, talking about the intellectual
growth of Jesus. Right. Right? I wonder if there's
not some sort of influence there that he's talking
about. He's like, this story is really interesting,
and it's important for those people who are intellectual
to see that Jesus grew too. Right? Right. That
Jesus was a boy at one point. He grew from a
boy to a man. Yeah, and this was the one story
we have to emphasize that, to document that,
that he found in his research and interviews
and all that. Many of the others were firsthand
stories. We've been discussing, the questions
I had were, you know, the... the reason for this
particular story and his parental interactions
his obedience to his parents because some people
look at this as disobeying his parents and that
really wasn't the case he was caught up in what
he was doing in the spirit and his parents came
back and he was fully obedient to them you know,
in his life. Yeah. And I don't, I mean, I think
from the text is fairly clear that the parents
were not, their frustration is more that we didn't
know where you were. Right. Not, they weren't
really frustrated at him in general. Correct.
Right. It's, it's more of a frustration of like,
Hmm. There you are. Yeah, there you are. And
I bet you if they lost him in the future, they
went to Czech synagogue first. They probably
did. They learned his lesson, yeah. I wrote in,
oh, by the way, I'll announce this for the podcast
because by the time this comes out, it'll actually
probably be published, but I wrote my first book
about... Congratulations. Thank you, thank you.
And it's about, it's called Beautiful Chaos,
Infinite Love, and it talks about parenting and
about how my interactions with my children have
taught me so much about how God is. about how
he interacts with his children. But in one of
the chapters, I talk about I have a foolproof
method to figure out where a baby is when you
lose them. Think of the most dangerous place
you can think of. That's where they are. That's
where they're going to be. In Jesus' case, the
most dangerous place for him to be was in the
temple, apparently. Again, in this story, we've
mentioned it says he grew in... He went back
and he grew in stature and he grew in favor and
wisdom with God and man. And that's really, really
important. I think that's what triggers this
is that he started at age 12 and he's really
digging in there, understanding who he is, but
still learning about that and what his humanness
and godness. what's that look like, and how does
he walk that out? Well, let me ask you this,
because I had a couple of questions pop up in
my mind as you were saying that. So when we talk
about growing in wisdom with God and man, I don't
think that there's any Christian theologian out
there who doesn't say that we should grow in
favor with God, right? Correct. I don't think
that anybody's like, you know what, you probably
need less God in your life, right? That'd be
weird for them to say. But what we do have is
there are theologies, that make you problematic
to the community at large. Now, let me kind of
say the question and then see what you have to
say about it. But sometimes when you represent
Jesus, it's going to rub people the wrong way,
and there's nothing you can do about that because
you're representing Jesus. But sometimes we rub
people the wrong way because we want to get our
way or our perspective. Right. And we struggle
with Paul's, if it's up to me, I'm going to live
at peace with everyone. Yeah. How important is
it to grow in favor with man as you're living
in this world? Because clearly Jesus had the
favor of many people. And it doesn't seem like
he compromised himself to do it. Correct. My
feeling on that, and this is... Something I've
learned over many, many, many years is, yeah,
you can aggravate people by being staunch on
your positions and all, but what did Jesus do?
He walked in peace and love. And we're here to
love people, and we have to love first. We can
argue second, but much of that is... Just the
wisdom of knowing when and knowing how to process
and react to that. We don't have to be liked
by everybody. Everybody doesn't have to believe
what we believe. But how do we grow in favor
with man? By growing in favor with God. In the
early church, in the book of Acts, which is going
to be the sequel to the Gospel of Luke, Luke
writes about how in the early church... They
fellowshiped together. They ate together. They
gave up for each other. They took care of one
another. And if you read a lot of historical
accounts through Eusebius or Flavius Justice,
I forget what that guy's name is. Josephus, that's
his name. I said Josephus the first time, and
I'm definitely going to edit it to sound correct.
No, I'm just kidding. I'm going to leave the
edit in there so people will be like, ah, Ben's
an idiot too. You're right, I am. You're learning
with the rest of us. Josephus write about how
the Roman emperors, they didn't like Christians,
but they couldn't get rid of them because all
the people liked them. So they would try to find
different ways to persecute them. But it's really
hard to exterminate a people that everybody likes
because they're like, man, when I was... When
my house burnt down. Who was there? They took
care of me. There's even conversation about,
this is going to be a little bit of a tangent,
so just forewarning. There is a ritual that they
reference in the book of Revelation at one of
the churches where... there was a worship of
a goddess and one of the things that was the
ultimate sacrifice during their tribute was that
you would basically super drunk during the festival
and you would go and you would emasculate or
cut yourself off completely your testicles on
their altar as a sign of ultimate devotion to
this goddess. And the blood that was spread and
would go all over your clothes would actually
be like the sign of your devotion. And if you
didn't want to go and be the one to do that because...
who wants to do that, you could go and if you
were with somebody else who did it and their
blood got on you, then you were also carried
under that blood. This is referenced in one of
the letters to the churches in Revelation, but
there is archaeological evidence that in that
city there is a church set up right behind them
that what they would do is when these people
would go and they would actually do this, they
immediately would take them and start caring
for them and putting them back together and helping
them heal from their They were literally at the
gates of hell. Yeah. Figuratively and literally.
Right. Right? Meeting needs for people and loving
them in the worst moment of decision. Because
it doesn't get much worse than that. No, that's
a tough one. That's a tough one. And it's something
where, you know, when you're heavily inebriated,
probably sounds like a great idea. You're like,
oh, I'll have a God's favor forever. And then
you wake up and you're like, I'm off balance.
Yeah. Right? Not a good idea. But the Christians
actually had a church. like a hospital that they
had formed, and they found archaeological evidence
of it, that they were set up right there taking
care of people. And that's what the world needs
to see. That's what it's all about, is they need
to see the church acting like the church, what
Jesus designed it to be. And they will know us
by our love. That's the strongest statement that
has resonated in my world for quite some time.
Well, if people like us, great. And they should
because we should be carrying an atmosphere of
peace and justice with us through the Holy Spirit.
And that should change the world around us. One
of the places where I start to think about this
is that I'm going to talk about and I want to
stress that your politics on this don't matter
as much to me as much as what your heart does
in this situation. But one of the hot button
topics in our country is immigration. And if
you are really passionate about justice and immigration,
one of the best things you could do is to go
and advocate and help people legally process
into the country. Yes, advocate towards changing
laws to be in a certain situation. But also I
know I have a friend of mine who was really passionate
about people being able to come to the country
legally. And so they work all year round to help
people legally go through the process to get
here. and they work they're largely pro bono
it's it's it's uh they're kind of grant funded
by like a couple of people but uh they work all
the time and uh that is that's what love does
that's what love does that's what love does um
it actually steps into the chaos and it's incredibly
difficult i was having a conversation with a
friend i said i was like how do you do this without
like gaining um anger towards people who are
different than you Like, uh, people who won't,
you know, they're like, oh, well you're either
too liberal or too conservative. Like, how do
you love people? And they're like, well, first
of all, it's hard. And I was like, well, that's
fair. Right. They're like, second of all, I'm
not serving them. I'm serving Jesus. Correct.
And also those same people are going like, I
need to serve them too. And, uh, it is, it's
from, I just, I love somebody's heart in that,
you know? Um, by the way, this is not a endorsement
of either political. agenda. This is talking
about what does love do in the middle of chaos?
Love your enemies. Yeah. And whatever your feelings
are, we're called to... Walk in love, love our
enemies, love our neighbors. That's what we're
here to do. And what does that look like? Does
that look like compromising the Bible? No. Do
we compromise God in any way, shape, or form?
No. But we do operate out of love, not hatred,
not vindictiveness. We operate out of love, and
we help those widows and orphans and people that
need help. That's what the Word calls us to do.
And I think it's a matter of growing in that
capacity, too. I struggle loving people who I
feel like are disingenuous. God's doing better
with me, right? You might say that I'm growing
in favor with God, but I'm getting to the point
where I was actually having a conversation at
our small group this last week, and I said, you
know, somebody asked me, they said, what do you
do when you just run up against an author that
you can't stand? I was like, that's a Christian,
right? And I said, you know, I used to. like
want to go and do a review and trash their book
and like talk about, you know, anything that
you could do. Right. I was like, and then I realized
from a pastor friend of mine, the best thing
that I could do is to stop and pray for that
person, ask God to bless them, to ask them to
move in their life, to ask the Holy Spirit to
take up residence in every single activity in
their, in their life, to love them, to pour out
my heart for them, to try to see them the way
that God sees them, to realize that they belong,
even if I don't like what they're doing. and
that I want to see God's work accomplished, His
kingdom come, His will be done in their life
as it is in heaven. And when I shift that, suddenly
these people that I'm very frustrated with, I
don't suddenly agree with them, but now I care
about them. And I think that's something that
happens when you start to grow in God, or rather
I would say that the kingdom of heaven starts
to grow inside you. Yes. Right? Dallas Willard
has a topic, and I'll just see what you think
about this. He says, it's almost like God is
not obsessed with you getting to heaven, but
about putting heaven into you. That's absolutely
correct. We need to be bringing it right here.
We need to be manifesting the kingdom of God
here on earth. And that's a hard thing to do
when you start looking at all the tough scriptures
like love your enemies, love your neighbors,
even though they may not be like you. They may
not believe like you, but the Bible doesn't.
say throw rocks at them, it says love them. It
does say throw rocks, but it's in a very different
context. Very different context. But I also know,
and I've struggled with that as well, because
I've had some really harsh times with other Christians.
I've been through, unfortunately, multiple cases
in churches where you had a failure in church
leadership, and even a couple of church splits.
that left me damaged from that and having to
work through that and not be mad at the people
involved that made mistakes and not hate them,
but to try to pray for them and pray that God
will use them and restore their lives. All right,
one more question for you, and then we'll wrap
this up. It says that the teachers of the law
were astonished by what Jesus had to say. Now,
this is not going to be the last time people
are amazed or astonished at what he has to say.
More so than the miracles themselves, Israel,
the Jewish people, seem to be astonished at what
Jesus teaches because he teaches with authority,
meaning that he reinterprets or helps them understand
what it was always supposed to mean. What do
you think about that? I think that he knew the
back story of every story in the Bible. Every
scripture he's reading, he knew the whole story.
You know, that's what the Holy Spirit in him
was. He knows the whole story. Some of that he
probably learned as he grew in wisdom. He was
there at the beginning. And so he knows the story.
So he knew it better than the rabbis because
he knew not their interpretation of it. He knew
the real interpretation of it. And just like
in years of my conversations, you bring up parallels
and connections in the Bibles from the Old and
New Testament to me. That's just a revelation
going, wow, I never saw that. That's great. And
that's what Jesus was doing to them. I think
one of the things that really completely changed
the way that I. look at scripture was when somebody
said, you know, Jesus says that his lens is love
God and love, love your neighbor as yourself.
Like this, everything pivots on these two commands.
That's not saying every other command doesn't
matter, but they're all interpreted through this
idea. Right. Right. Which by the way, we're going
to talk about next week. And so what this meant
is when I read the old Testament and I read these
places where people say that God is fire and
brimstone, but then I, Jesus tells me he's the
perfect representation of the father. But then
I'm confronted with this idea from my upbringing,
and by the way, good people, but that God was
mad and he has to pour out his wrath and that
he's basically holding back his anger, but then
Jesus steps in, right? Which there is a peace
that's there, correct. But then when I shifted
my view and I started reading the Old Testament,
I was like, wait, how long did God hold back
from doing that? It was two verses for me, but
it was 40 years? Yeah. 40 years is a long time
to withhold judgment. Right. I'm reminded of,
I'm just going to go back to this, talking about
what Jesus taught as opposed to the miracle itself,
right? A lot of times we will focus on things
like when Joshua comes back in the conquest,
and they're like, well, what about when they
came through and they wiped everybody else out?
I was like, first of all, there's a context to
that, and we should talk about it. I was like,
think of that as the miracle, right? Like the
land is being ended, and you have Jericho, walls
falling down, all these miracles happen. In the
book of Genesis, God has a conversation with
Abram as he's in a deep sleep, and he says, you're
going to go to a land that's not your own for
400 plus years. which is Egypt, right? And I'm
going to bring you back here and you're going
to take, you're going to occupy this land, but
you can't have it now because the sin of the
Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.
So this is where Joshua is going to come back
and he's going to lead the conquest of these
lands. 400 years before that, God says, you can't
have it now because their sin hasn't reached
its full measure. Now, what do you think is happening
in those 400 years? Because God hasn't placed
judgment, but there's child sacrifice, there's
idolatry, there's wickedness. There's literally
nothing good. Yeah, there's nothing good happening.
But God waits 400 years. Right. You know, we
don't have writings from the Amorites, but I
can't imagine that God's not sending prophets
and he's not sending warnings and he's not sending
these corrections because we see that all throughout
Israel's history. And we see that even with other
places like Nineveh, he sends Jonah to tell them.
Right, he does. Don't do this. How do you have
patience for 400 years? 400 years. That's not
an angry, vengeful God. That's giving people
opportunity to change. Yeah. It feels more like
a God who's doing everything he can to get you
to do the right thing. Yeah. And I think part
of where we struggle with this is, this is going
back to Dallas Willard again, and I believe it
was in his book, The Great Omission. he makes
a comment and he says, the problem is we read
the Bible and we think the worst thing that can
happen is that we die. Right. And, uh, I would
argue that one of the things that the Bible is
really telling us is that the worst thing that
can happen to us isn't that we would die. It's
that we would never truly live. Yeah. That we
are already in a lot of, like to quote Paul,
we're already dead. And God wants us to come
alive. And he's giving us a chance to come alive.
And he's inviting us into this relationship,
this kingdom of God. And it's ultimately going
to be accessible through the death, burial, and
resurrection of Jesus. But he was even doing
it in the Old Testament, inviting. And we had
glimpses, just glimpses of what was going on.
I just love that the people in this day, we would
be like, oh, watch Jesus turn water to wine.
Ah, look at that lame person. Now they're walking.
And they're like, do you hear what he did with
Torah? Yeah. Did you hear that he said, you know
that don't murder thing? It's not just about
not murdering. It's actually not harboring anger
towards people. And he says that was the intention
all along. Did you know that not committing adultery
was always supposed to lead to us thinking about
people well and not sexualizing them? Yeah. He
knows the story. He knows the whole story. He
knows the intent and the meaning. And that's
why he could teach with such wisdom. Just fascinating.
But he also kept it very simple, too, because
we don't seem to grasp the complex ones quickly.
So next week we're going to talk about the silent
years. We're going to talk about some of the
rabbinic system. And you'll kind of see some
of these connections with boy Jesus having these
conversations. He's going to be following a rabbi
probably at some capacity. We don't know because
they don't write about it. But it definitely
feels like Luke's kind of setting this up. Right.
There's a specific reason that this story is
in there. Yeah, and so you're going to kind of
feel the hints around that. And as we talk about
the rabbinic system, you're going to see a lot
of these characteristics of what was going on
during that time carry into the teachings of
Jesus, where he's using the medium of the day,
median of the day, to actually have these conversations
and orchestrate these things. He's a Jewish Messiah.
He's teaching them out of what they know. Yeah,
exactly. Any other thoughts? No, this is good.
All right. Well, I want to thank you for being
here. We'll probably have, because it is this
time of year where, like I said, Spencer, we
love Spencer, but he has a lot of work right
now. We've got a lot going on. And so we're going
to probably have Les a couple more times and
interdisperse throughout. Hopefully one of these
times I'm going to try to get you and Spencer
to talk and not me. Oh, that'll be all right.
That'll be all right, too. All right. Until next
time. and Facebook at loveandcontext. Love and
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