Welcome to Season 3 of Love & Context. This season,
we're exploring the life of Jesus step -by -step
and uncovering what His story teaches us about
loving God and others. Here on Love & Context,
we're all about having real conversations about
how to live out that love in practical, everyday
ways, and understanding the Bible in its full
context. We're so glad you're here. Let's dive
into Season 3 of Love & Context. Welcome to the
Love and Context Podcast with Ben Edwards and
today, Les Kronk. Wonderful. Glad to be here,
Ben. Now, the ironic thing about this is I actually
think this is going to be the first episode that
airs that you're actually guesting on. Correct.
I was thinking that. Yes, indeed. But this is
actually like the sixth one you've recorded.
Right. Yeah, because we got all out of order.
So I'm going to look a lot better on my first
one than I will on later ones. Yeah, they're
going to be like, man, his quality really went
down dramatically. They're like, I don't know
what happened between that first episode. He
was on it. Yeah, he was on it. So we're in season
three. life of Jesus. And today we're actually
talking about the visit of the Magi. That is
in Matthew chapter two. We're going to go through
verses one through 12. And we're actually just,
why don't we just open up? We'll just jump into
that. Let's see here. What are you reading out
of? Oh, I'm in the wrong. I'm in message. Let
me switch back. I looked up a different verse.
Hey, listen, I know there are listeners who disagree
with me, but I actually really like the message.
I do. I look at it as almost a commentary. Yeah.
And so it gives me a different perspective, but
I was trying to find, I saw a verse online and
it didn't seem right to me. And I wanted to see
if I could find where it was. And basically it
wasn't right. You know, it was interesting. I
actually, so one of the reasons I talk about
the message is I've actually used it when I'm
talking to people who have no perspective on
the Bible at all. Um, so I had a conversation
with a friend of mine who's a Jehovah's witness
and was struggling with like what they're teaching
on Sunday mornings versus what, what the Bible
actually says. And then they have their translation.
They're like, I can't understand this translation.
I said, Hey, have you ever tried reading the
message? Yeah. Right. And, uh, they're like,
no, what is that? And I, so I showed them how
on you Bible, how do you pull it up? Right. And
so they pulled it up and I said, this is not
one that I study from, but it's kind of like
more of a paraphrased version, trying to help
you get the broad ideas of what's going on here.
And, uh, so I, I gave that to them six months
later, we get together and they're like, yeah,
I was reading these stories. And they're like,
I would read them in like the, the, the one we
have. And then I read them in the message and
the one, the message I'm like, oh, that makes
way more sense with what's going on. And so they're
getting like this context. And, uh, so then we
were actually having, we'll have some real fun
conversations about, um, you know, they, they
came to me and they're like, Hey, I don't know
if you, I think Jesus might be God. And I was
like, Oh. This is so surprising to me. Once you
start understanding the word. The first Bible
I read from cover to cover was a living Bible.
Yeah. That was given to me by a friend for a
high school graduation. Is the living Bible,
is that a New Living Translation? New Living
Translation is what it's called now. It was a
living Bible back then when it first came out.
Yeah. But it was more of a story, you know, paraphrase.
Yeah, it is. It is closer. So, and just for our
listeners, we've talked about this before. Probably
the most literal word. word in the English translation
is the NASB. So if you're reading the NASB and
you're like, man, this is really clunky. That's
why it's clunky because it's more of a word for
word translation. So it's going to be a lot more
accurate as far as the individual words, but
not necessarily capturing the ideas. Right. So
whereas you get something with the like the message
is going to be all the way on the other side
where it's more of paraphrasing ideas. And so
it's not necessarily going to get into the specific
words or the things that are actually in the
text, but it's going to be translating those
words and ideas into phrases for people to understand.
Right. And that's when I when I'm looking into
a verse, I will read four or five different versions
to see how it is. paraphrased or interpreted
in different ways to help give me some better
perspective. At our small group on Tuesday, people
got to look behind the curtain because they were
asking about a specific word that was used in
Ephesians from a video we were doing. And so
I actually went to Blue Letter Bible and pulled
up Ephesians, went to the root words and showed
them how it was used and the usage and how often
it's used in each context and how you can kind
of like actually see what, like where contextually
it would make sense to be translated one way
or another. And they're like, I didn't even know
this website exists. Shout out Blue Letter Bible,
by the way. They're a nonprofit and they do a
ton of good stuff. So if you're looking for somewhere
to throw your money for organizations that sell
for free, Blue Letter Bible is a good one. It
is. It is. Yeah, they do a lot. They're very
helpful for people studying the Bible. And I
even saw some interesting word usage in the passages
we're talking about today. Yeah. You know, so.
All right, well, let's jump in here. I'm going
to, why don't you read us one through, read one
through 12. Okay. In chapter two. After Jesus
was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time
of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
and asked, Where is the one who has been born
King of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose,
and have come to worship him. When King Herod
heard this, he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem
with him. When he had called together all the
people's chief priests and teachers of the law,
he asked them where the Messiah was to be born.
In Bethlehem in Judea, they replied, for this
is what the prophet has written. But you, Bethlehem,
in the land of Judah, are by no means least among
the rulers of Judah. For out of you will come
a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel. Then
Herod called the Magi secretly and found out
from them the exact time the star had appeared.
He sent them to Bethlehem and said, go and search
carefully for the child. As soon as you find
him, report to me so that I too may go and worship
him. After they had heard from the king, after
they heard the king, they went on their way,
and the star they had seen when it rose went
ahead of them until it stopped over the place
where the child was. When they saw the star,
they were overjoyed. On coming to the house,
they saw that the child with his mother Mary,
and they bowed down and worshipped him. Then
they opened their treasures and presented him
with the gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.
And having been warned in a dream not to go back
to Herod, they returned to their country by another
route. Love that. All right. So let's jump in
here, which is a couple of things that are interesting
here. So when you just hear that story, some
things that pop out to you. Yeah. Um, something
that popped out of me is, is we've been doing
it all wrong for all these years. Yeah. How do
you say that? The three wise men were not in
the manger. Yeah. I mean, all of the manger scenes
we have at Christmas time, this, they show up
at his house as he's a child. Yeah. You know,
there's conversation that they would say probably
when he would arise, it'd be somewhere around
like somewhere between zero and two. Right. Right.
Um, not, not when he's born. The ones who are
actually present when he's born. Is a shepherd.
Shepherd. Well, not when he's born. They're probably
not walking in as they're giving birth. But closer
to the time of the birth be the shepherds, which,
by the way, is fitting with Jesus welcoming the
least of these. Right. Right. But also these
these wise men is what we call them. Magi is
the word that is actually it's a joy in Greek
and it's likely astrologers or scholars in the
East, likely Persian or Babylonian. I thought
is interesting. They say we followed the star,
right? That's always intrigued me. They were
astrologers and they saw a star Yeah, and there
is a conversation and I'm actually going to link
in this episode over to an episode of Baymaw
podcast Where Marty will talk about this a little
bit, but there is actually scholarship in Persia
and Babylon and it has to do with when they were
looking at the stars and they're looking at the
sky there's like this cartouche area like when
they when they're looking and they're like if
you imagine like a sextant out at sea they had
a similar thing, like when they would look at
the sky and they had a, they watched this star
and they believe that when a certain star hits
a certain spot, that's something of divine significance
is happening there. And there's suggestion that
during the time that Jesus is born, that this
star actually would have been present in this
spot. And that's actually what prompts them to
go and figure out where this is going. I still
don't know what that means. Like it was over
the. It was over the city. They didn't hover
over the city. I mean, it took them right to
the house, the way that sort of reads. Yeah,
so it was some sort of phenomenon that they were
able to interpret as people who look at the stars
all the time, but also wasn't super obvious to
the people of Bethlehem because there's no mention
where they're like, hey, remember that weird
star? And so it's something like they're capable.
And I think that's one of the reasons I stress
they're astronomers. So they see something that
we wouldn't necessarily normally see. They're
looking for things we're not normally looking
for. Yeah, we're in Alaska. And so it's especially
like a small town in Alaska. So we can at times
get out into the woods where there's no light
pollution. And you get out tonight and like the
stars come out and it is just. It's phenomenal.
So many like it's so bright. There's so many
stars moving out there because you're not having
all the light pollution from the from the cities
interfering. And so if I was, you know, I have
to port myself back. There's no light pollution
at this time, aside from people's fires and things
like that. There's no streetlights. There's no
headlights. There's no radio towers. Any of these
things going on during this time. So night is
dark, but it's also very bright when it's when
it's in the desert. And so you have this overwhelming
ability to see the sky. Right. And like now I
still struggle when it's really dark and like
the stars are really bright to find the constellations
quickly. Right. Yeah. You know, when there's
some light pollution, it's easy enough because
they're brighter and you can actually see them
like they're the ones that pop out. But when
it's really dark and you can see everything.
Yeah. They just kind of blend in. They just kind
of blend in. And so there's something about these
guys, their profession that they're able to see
not only they're like, hey, this is different.
This is something different, which I think is
a profound thing about like how God also uses
creation to draw people to himself. Correct.
Right. Go ahead. And these were not Jewish people.
Nope. These are Persians, Babylonians. You know,
it's possible that they knew of the God of Yahweh
because you got to remember they were in captivity
in Persia. So it's possible that they're familiar
with them. But that's not. They came looking
for the king of the Jews. So obviously they had
some familiarity with Judaism. Yeah. And putting
this contextually where it lies, they would have
some sort of context. There is a song that we
sing. And by the way, I'm not downing the song
because I love it. The We Three Kings. Right.
I love that song. These aren't kings. No. They're
not kings. And there's not three of them. The
only reason we associate three is because there's
three gifts. Three gifts, but there were probably
more of them. Yeah, there could literally be
like 15 of them. It's also unlikely that you're
going to take a carrier van from one country
to another with three people. Right. Because
that's not very safe. No. There's these things
called bandits, and they don't like, they like
to take people's stuff. And you're carrying high
value stuff. Yes. When you're like, because gold,
frankincense, you know, ironically, the least
expensive out of them is probably the gold. Right,
exactly. Frankincense, which is a wonderful.
I would say oil and medicine even today. Yeah.
Later, Christian tradition is actually going
to call them Kaspar, Melchior, and Balthazar.
I do think Balthazar is an interesting one because
of the name of Daniel when he was in Persia.
It's not the same because it was Balthazar, but
this is a very similar type of name. So I wonder
if there's some significance in the reason church
tradition would have named them like that. I
just saw it as they grabbed some Persian names.
They grabbed some Persian names. Because that's
where they were from. What's your name? I'll
take that. That's mine. No, I'm just kidding.
All right, so going back to the star, I actually
did look up in a couple of different ways that
people have interpreted it. It's either that
there was like a planetary conjunction, for example,
like Jupiter and Saturn aligning in 7 to 6 BCE.
What happened in the stars? I can speak. There
could have been like a comet or a supernova that
was actually moving towards a specific location
or a supernatural. natural event created by God.
And if you believe any of those, great. The reality
is that we know that God did something special
that drew them and something that they knew what
was going on. Right. Exactly. Anything else that
kind of jumped out at you that you were thinking
was really strange? Well, that these were non
-Jewish people that came to worship Jesus. Yeah.
That recognized who he was before. The Jewish
people did. Yeah. I think, I think there's something
really interesting about, um, I was talking about
prophetic gifts with somebody and I was talking
about like the movement of the Holy spirit through,
through prophetic, uh, through the prophetic.
And, uh, sometimes in the, I'm going to call
it non -churched world. Like people who are not
familiar, like didn't grow up in church. They're
actually more receptive to the divine wonders
and spirituality and like the power that comes
from the Holy Spirit and things that happen.
They're actually more receptive than that than
sometimes people come from the church. They're
not tainted by all of the sideboards that the
church puts up or the rules the church puts up.
I think their eyes can be more freely looking
for the signs that God puts up. And there's also
like this. You think about like people talking
about crystals and Kabbalah and Reiki and like
all these different things even yoga right this
whole thing about like they want to empty themself
and be filled with like inner peace or They're
they're praying to crystals to try to and they're
they're trying to engage something because they
know we are spiritual beings right and so the
nature of us is that we're gonna try to engage
with something spiritual And, uh, we talked about,
well, actually we will talk about in a couple
of weeks. So, uh, I just realized that we're
out of order here, but we did, we, we will talk
about in a couple of weeks, like in the temptation
of Jesus, there is this person, the, um, the
Satan that is going to, he's going to be a deceiver.
He's going to be an accuser. He's going to manipulate
situations. And when the church abdicates the
responsibility to carry the Holy Spirit, it leaves
room for the inauthentic to be pursued. Right.
Yep. And and I do think that you have to be careful
inside of the church to make sure you're always
pursuing God and not pursuing gifts. Correct.
Right. You're pursuing the miracle maker, not
the miracle itself. Right. But when we abandon
our role as God's hands and feet in the world
to bring liberation to the poor, to bring healing
to the broken, to bring food to the hungry. It
leaves room for the inauthentic to step in and
lead people even further away from the kingdom
of God. Right. And that's problematic. And, and
what you like, what we see here with the Magi
is they are clued into the spiritual. And so
they're actually drawn and they actually meet
Jesus in flesh, even though they're not even
Jews. Right. Right. Because they're already clued
into the spiritual and they say, Hey, we know
God exists. And this is something that we've
never seen before. Correct. And, uh, and then
there's this. Broad invitation then to step from
that and then invite people into something else.
I actually thought something that sounded really
interesting to me and I just want to talk about
for a second. It says, when King Herod heard
this, he was disturbed and all Jerusalem with
him. Yeah, that was interesting. When I read
that, it's like that kind of jumped out at me.
It's like all Jerusalem, how did they find out
in the last, you know, it's not like they all
got on Facebook and saw it. Well, so I think
Herod is disturbed by the fact that he said he's
going to be born the king of the Jews, right?
He is, yeah. That's his thing. Do you think maybe
all Jerusalem is disturbed because they say we
saw his star when it rose and we've come to worship
him? Like maybe they're disturbed because they
didn't see the star? That I would think that,
yeah. why did these outsiders come and tell us
something that we should have seen? And I think
one of the things I do want to point out that
a lot of times when it says like Herod and all
Jerusalem with him, it actually means the people
who are around him. And so that would have been
Herod's court. Now, last season when we were
closing up, we actually talked about Herod the
Great, who is a guy of questionable character.
Very questionable character. Incredibly wealthy.
So he was largely involved in the spice trade,
which, by the way, totally makes sense that the
Magi are bringing frankincense and myrrh, which
are going to be in that type of trade. The first
person they go to talk to. is going to be Herod
because he's going to be the point of contact
with Persia and Babylon. They would have been
very familiar with him. They're like, well, he
probably knows what's going on. He's in charge
of Israel. And so they go and talk to him and
he's like, what do you mean king of the Jews?
Because that's what Herod wanted to be. He wanted
to be king of the Jews. He was an Edomian, which
meant that he was of mixed heritage, but he was
partially Jewish. But he wanted to be recognized
as the king of the Jews, but he was so brutal.
He was, yeah. And he didn't follow Torah. And
so like he kept trying to do things to ingratiate
himself to people, but they didn't accept it.
They're going to make mention here in the story
that Herod dies. But one of the things we talked
about last season is when Herod dies, because
he knows people aren't going to mourn him. He
actually gathers up all the sages and the teachers
and like all these people that are really well
thought of the teach Torah and he imprisons them
and he orders their execution on the day that
he dies. Right. Right. He says, when I die, I
want them all to be executed on that day so that.
The entire country will mourn when I die. Okay,
Herod. Wow, yeah. It was actually Herod's wife
who, once he died, she goes and she releases
them and gets them all out before the order is
carried out. Oh, good. And so there's a great
liberation that takes place. So Herod the Great
is not a good person, and by the way, neither
are his kids. No. There's a lot of backstabbing
and things that end up going with that, too.
So they bring these three gifts. The gifts, real
quick, gold is typically a gift that's going
to be given to royalty, right? Frankincense is
used in worship during this time. And myrrh is
actually a spice for embalming. Now, people have
then said, hey, you know, so this is recognizing
as king of kings. This is Jesus' divine nature
and priestly role. And this is also looking forward
to Jesus' suffering and death. I don't know if
I'm ready to jump there because these wise men
do recognize the king of Jews is going to be
born. But myrrh is used for a lot of different
things. Correct. And it's just a very valuable
spice. And I think that retroactively, it's just
an extra little piece of symbolism. And I do
think that's probably why Matthew includes it
in his gospel, but it's not necessarily why they
brought it. Correct. I agree with that because
myrrh is actually, and Frank says both are fairly
healing in their properties and used for other
things just than that. So I don't know if the
Magi came knowing Jesus was going to be killed
and brought symbolism for that. Maybe God directed
it that way. I don't know, but I agree. And like
we've said before, if you think that, great.
We love that for you. And there's no reason to
sit here and argue about it. Exactly. But I think
sometimes what I don't want to do is we need
to also understand that Matthew is writing this
with the past in mind. So then he says, oh, you
know what? They brought gold, frankincense, and
myrrh. I'm going to include those details because
that's tasty for people. Right? And then, of
course, we say three people because of that.
So coming back to Herod again, they come to Herod
and they say, hey, where's the king of the Jews
going to be born? Right. And he's like, okay,
that's, that's quite the question, you know?
And, uh, he's like, that's me, but I'm here.
Yeah, I know. And, and one of the, one of the
things that we see here with, uh, with, I've,
I've talked about how Jesus is stepping in as
a second Moses. And I think we will talk about
it in the next couple of weeks too. Um, but Jesus
is stepping in as a second Moses is one of the
situations that ends up happening here is Herod
freaks out when the Magi don't come back. Right.
And he goes and has every kid under two killed.
Right. And if you don't see the connection to
the Exodus, then you should. Especially since,
where do they go? Where does they go to Egypt?
They go to Egypt. Yeah. And where is Moses taken
to? When he's put in the basket, he's taken into
Pharaoh's household. The king of Egypt, right?
And then also when they go to do their ministry,
Jesus then goes and leaves Egypt. Leaves Egypt.
Right? Before he begins his ministry. Moses also
leaves Egypt before he comes back to lead them
out of captivity, right? So there's a lot of
dual symbolism going on here and why Matthew's
including these details. Because we have... Uh,
we have another episode we're going to be recording
in the future where we're talking about these
12 years where we don't know what happened. No,
18 years. We don't know what happens with Jesus.
And, uh, we're like, man, we really could use
some context about what does Jesus look like
a teen as a teenager? Yeah. No kidding. How good,
how good of a carpenter was Jesus? Uh, that is
like, you know, those are quick questions. Um,
but Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, they're like,
well, these aren't important stories. Right.
And, uh, not because we don't think they're important,
but because they didn't think it was important
to understanding Jesus's mission in the, in the
kingdom of heaven. So when the details are there,
we actually need to talk about them because they're
important. Gotcha. So they, they say, they, they
ask him where, where the King, King of the Jews
is going to be born. And, and so Herod goes and
talks to his guys and he says, Hey, where's the,
where they prophesied to actually be born. Right.
And he quotes from, do you know which book? Um,
It's an Old Testament prophetic book starting
with M. Yeah. It's Micah. Micah. Micah. And Micah
is a lot about, it's being written about learning
how to walk in justice, right? About learning
how to, Micah 6 .8 is one of the more familiar
passages. I probably just quoted that wrong,
by the way. He has shown you, O man, what is
good. to do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with
your God, right? And so they're actually quoting
from the book of Micah, talking about that, where
they then interpret this as messianic passage,
that the person who is going to literally put
Torah on display is going to lead us back to
who we're supposed to be, is going to be born
in Bethlehem, the house of bread, right? I love...
That they're born in the house of bread. House
of bread. Is what Bethlehem means. That's what
Bethlehem means. So there is like this connection
with manna in the desert, this connection with
the home of David, right? There's this connection
with Moses, right? There's this connection with
justice. Yeah. I mean, Matthew, if you are a
Jew, he is laying it on thick. Gotcha. He's laying
it on super thick. And he's like. I'm trying
to tell you who Jesus is. Right. He is the bread.
I mean, John is going to say this plainly in
his gospel, but Matthew's like, he is the bread
that came from heaven. Yeah. Right. He is like
a new King in the line of David. This, this golden
years we have, he is the second Moses. He is
the Torah, you know, and he, and he, you know,
and he draws in these scriptures to support that
all these scriptures and all these images. He's
like everything that's come before it. He is
going to bring justice. We talked about Matthew
is going to be, It's going to be gospel focused
a lot on the people who are excluded, the people
who are on the outside. Not surprising that Matthew,
the tax collector, would write a gospel like
that. Yeah. In fact, that's actually where in
Matthew 5, we're going to get into this and it's
going to be a couple of weeks, but we're going
to start. getting into the Sermon on the Mount.
Right. And Matthew is one of two who, he really
records the Sermon on the Mount in this, and
then Luke records the Sermon on the Plains, which
may or may not have been the same message. Right.
I mean, Jesus did wander for three and a half
years. He did a lot of talking in that time.
But the Sermon on the Mount opens up with, hey,
all these people who are on the outside are actually
really close to heaven, the kingdom of heaven.
All these people who you think aren't worth anything
are actually exactly who we're here for. Wow.
I was listening to a book and it's Jefferson
Bethke. It was a pretty decent book. I didn't
love every analogy that he had, but he says,
heaven isn't what you think, I think is what
the book is called. It's something is not what
you think. And he has a bunch of different, he's
like, you know, worship is not what you think.
This isn't what you think. And so he goes through
and talks about these different things. One of
the points that he is talking about is he said
when we a lot of the church used to be about
going and touching the leper and healing the
sick and taking care of the least of these and
bringing these people and taking care of the
widows and the orphans. And one of the things
in the early reputation in Rome is that people
like they wanted to persecute Christians, but
also the community was like, well. But these
people are helping doing the jobs that we don't
want to do. And they're like taking care of the
sick people and the dying people. And then the
lepers, like they're taking care of the lepers,
you know, and and they give of themselves. And
anytime there's a debt, they just take care of
it, you know. And so like Rome wants to exterminate
them or like to knock them out. But at the same
time around them, people are like, we like these
guys. We like him. Who's going to do this work?
Yeah, we like these guys like they're really
good. And somewhere along the line, we went from.
Jesus attracting the least of these tax collectors
and fishermen and Pharisees and, and Sadducees
and Essenes and women and, and, and people who
are on the outcast, right. To, um, a lot of what
American Christianity is. We're looking for people
who are respectable, right. Uh, put together.
Yeah. Can write a good tithe check. Yep. That's
what the church has looked for for a long time,
which by the way, it's not a, that's not a condemnation
on people who make money. No. Like, that's not
what I'm talking about. I'm saying that when
a church looks for people who make money, they've
lost the heart of their mission. Yeah. Because
Jesus comes and he's born in a feeding trough,
right? Well, he's not born in that. He's born
out of his mom, but he's placed in a feeding
trough. He's celebrated by shepherds. He has
people outside of his own country who recognize
him. as King long before anybody else. If he
walked into any church in America, would he be
recognized? Probably not. Yeah. He would not
be because that you're right. He wasn't, he didn't
look like our stereotypic, no typical Christian.
And he is, he is the guy who's coming to bring
justice, which by the way, doesn't mean people
get what they deserve. It means everybody's going
to have enough. Yeah. The things that are out
of whack are going to get put back into order.
Um, I think sometimes we say justice is retribution
and I was like, that's not what justice is. Justice
is restoring people to what they should be. Um,
for that book you were just talking about, it's
not what you think it is. It's not what you think
it is. You know, like let's take, for example,
I'm going to pick on one of the, one of the blinding,
blinding, uh, issues in America. Okay. Right.
Uh, we were, we participated in the slave trade
for a long time. Justice is not, um, getting
people back because they participated in the
slave trade. Justice is making sure that every
person who was discredited from being made in
the image of God is now elevated to that position
and that the people who are persecuting are held
accountable. Yes. But also that healing takes
place, right? That's justice. Justice is making
sure that we all have a way moving forward. Right.
And that the people who were said, you are less
than because you are X, Y, Z. No, you are exactly
who God made you to be. You're made in the image
of God. I'm made in the image of God. Together,
we need to reflect the image of God. Right. Right.
And to both Christianity's detriment and... there
were people who used the Bible to support slavery,
but there was also a lot of people who worked
towards abolition, recognizing that they needed
to free people made in the image of God. Correct.
And so you can use the same text to do multiple
things. And yet the heart of God can be completely
missed. Yes. In the middle of it. Hopefully,
that's what people are picking up from this podcast
is that you got to have real conversations about
these things. You really do. It's stuff that
some people are hesitant to talk about because
it's controversial, but that's not how God looked
at it. And I think God's... His perspective on
it is a lot simpler than we make it. Justice
is about forgiveness. It's about not retribution,
but reconciliation. Yeah, I think God's justice
is about redemptive justice. Yes. Not retributive.
Yes. Right. And and it's it's incredibly problematic,
you know, and it's really difficult for me. You're
a little bit older than me, so you may have a
little bit different perspective. But it's really
weird because I'm 38. And so like people talk
and it wasn't that long ago that we had significant
like we're talking in the 60s, 70s, you know,
but I was born in 87. And I was actually having
this conversation with my like even with like
my rotary. And so this is going from race, but
also going to like gender. Right. um i was talking
with my rotary that i was born in 87 in 1988
they they've made a supreme court case out of
allowing women into rotary international well
and uh and so like uh it was a huge day it's
like some of the people that go now um and they're
in their 60s 70s and it was a huge thing for
them i was born after like before like right
around that time that happened so i've never
known anything else right And I think it's both
a blessing, but it's also a curse not to know
history. History is so valuable. You know, because
it doesn't even compute in my brain to treat
somebody differently because of the color of
their skin. Right. Or the gender of their person.
I was fortunate not to be raised that way at
all, but I was. And so in the early 60s, I was
a young child. But I remember seeing all of that
in the protests and the fight for equality that
went on. And I remember that very vividly. And
it still breaks my heart to this day. Like I
say, fortunately, I was raised in a wonderful
family that has never felt that way. But it's
a tough one. But it's so meaningful to feel that
and know that and know that everyone is made
in the image of God. But it's still, I think
all of this talking about people and race and
all it brings us back to the first people that
really recognized and worshiped Jesus were not
Jews. Were not Jews. They weren't Jews. And that's,
I think that's very significant. Well, and not
only not Jews, they're from Persia or Babylon.
Right. Likely from Persia or Babylon, which is
a place that was a captive place for them. Yeah.
So it's almost like it would almost be like the
Romans recognize recognizing Jesus as as the
king of the Jews before they did. Right. Right.
But there is this there's this whole thing about
the way that God works is that he is all throughout
the Gospels. We're seeing that he is always been
about all nations. Right. It's all throughout
the Old Testament. He's always been about all
nations. And so you get these people who are
always recognizing the work of God. There's a
story in the Old Testament of God by the name
of Naaman. Right. Who is he suffers from a skin.
disease like leprosy and he has a jewish slave
who tells him about a guy by the name of elisha
and so he she says well you should go see him
so he goes to see elisha and uh elisha doesn't
even come to the door he sends his his guy that
works for him right to the door and he says elisha
says you need to go bathe in the jordan river
seven times now people don't recognize this because
they just they don't understand but compared
compared to a lot of rivers the jordan river
is kind of gross right yeah um These are muddy
waters. Yeah, they're muddy waters. It's just
gross. And he's like, well, why would I go and
do that? I have much cleaner. Like, if I'm just
going to bathe, this guy can't even be bothered
to see me. Because Naaman, he's a big deal, right?
And the guy that's with him says, hey, listen,
you came all this way. Like, maybe you should
just go ahead and do what he says. And so he
goes to bathe seven times, and his skin is clean.
And then he comes back to talk to Elisha and,
uh, and he praises God, but he asked him for
a really weird thing. He says, can I, he's like,
I know truly that your God is the, is the only
God. Like I recognize what happened here. Your
God is the only God. Um, but when I serve my
master, who's the King, where he comes from,
and he needs me to go into the temple. Um, he
needs me to lean on another. He has to like,
hold on, hold on to me as I, as he goes down
and nail and stuff. And he says, uh, can I take
some dirt? So that, uh, I, I may worship your
God there. Right. Can I, I have some dirt. Then
he says also, will God, uh, will, will God be
patient with me if I, if I kneel when I'm there
with my master, is he serving a God that I know
is not the true God? He says, but also can I,
and so first Elijah says, yes, that's fine. Right.
Like you have to go and serve. But then he says,
take all the dirt you want. Okay. Now in Naaman's
mind, Jesus or God is Yahweh is, um, geographically.
Geographically. He needs dirt because he feels.
He needs the dirt. He's like, he's the God of
this land. So if I take this dirt, then I can
worship him if I have it there. Right. Right.
And, uh, now here's, here's the, here's the strange
thing. Cause we've talked about how sometimes
we just disagree about things. That's okay. You
know what Elisha doesn't say is, well, Naaman,
let me explain to you the theological ramifications
of an all -omnipotent God. Let me explain to
you how your ideas of geographical significance
for God is not the case. He says, it's going
to help you engage with God? Okay. Take all the
dirt you want. Take all the dirt you want. Yeah.
And there are theologians and there are Christians
today who would be wildly uncomfortable with
that. to help Naaman continue his relationship
with God and to develop into who he was going
to be. In a way that he understood would be meaningful
to him. In a way that he understood would be
meaningful to him. And I don't have any like
follow up on like what to name and do, any of
those types of things. But what happens a lot
of times in the Old Testament and here is that
people recognize something that God is doing.
Right. And they're not Jewish people. But God
is working through them to do something significant.
Because right after they have this thing where
they go and they find the king of the Jews and
they celebrate him. And they're like, hey, that
star, we found him. This is awesome. And they
worship him. Yeah. Right. Then they go and take
a nap. And they get a dream. And they get a dream.
Yeah. And so God is talking to them. He is. You
know, the angel of the Lord comes and has a message
with him. He says, Herod is going to mess you
up if you go back to him. You need to go a different
way. Yep. This is what's going to happen. And
so God brings divine protection for these magi.
Like, God is doing a lot of things that we're
not expecting. Right. And he's working with a
lot of people we're not expecting. And we don't
get the story, but I would love to, if somebody
is like a history nerd and you know something,
I'd love to see like these magi who go back.
What does that do? What does that do to that
area they come from? Is there anything in history
that is recorded? That's a good point. Was there
any change? They went and found the king of the
Jews, and then they went back. What story did
they bring? What change did it make in their
own worship and their own lives? There's so many
questions that I have. I was talking about this
a couple Sundays ago, maybe last Sunday, when
I was preaching with Gavin and Matthew Nunley,
who I'm going to have on the podcast soon. is
that often God is doing things in the scriptures
that like we don't ever get to read about. Right.
There's 400 silent years between Malachi and
the book of Matthew. Are we under the impression
that God didn't do anything during that time?
Did nothing happen during that time? Or are we
also under the impression that like these 18
years that God, or that Jesus was growing up
between 12 and 30, that nothing was happening
during this time? I can't imagine that's the
case. I mean, I don't go a day where God doesn't
do something in my life, like specifically. And
that's not a New Testament thing. That's always
who he's been. Yet not everything is written
about. I think that when we recognize that God
is always at work around us. So this is coming
back. We've talked a few years ago. We talked
about a guy by the name of Henry Blackaby. a
series called experiencing God. So it's one of
the first things about knowing and doing the
will of God is recognizing that God is always
at work around you. I will say that. We miss
God so often. Every day, God is at work in our
lives and responding in so many ways that we
just miss. And I've really tried to focus more
on that. And you try to examine your days and
see what did God do today? Where was God? And
there's times you have to look back at the end
of the day and go, oh, I missed it there. Or
that was an inkling that I had from the Holy
Spirit that I should have done that. or spoke
to that person or, or there are times when you
get more in tune with that, you respond. And
it's like, um, you just feel that little pull
and it's like, I need to go talk to that person.
And it's, it's this crazy thing. And the reason
I'm bringing it up is because when we read these
passages, I, you a hundred percent need to see
the meta narrative about Jesus, about the old
Testament connections. But I also want to be
the kind of people who are curious. Yeah. And
we say, what did they do after this? Like, what
does it mean when you, when you encounter, like
what happens when you encounter? the transformative
God. Yeah. You know? And then, uh, like what
happens with them afterwards? Right. Like how
does that change where around them? Like what
happens in their space? And, uh, and sometimes
we don't have the answers. but I just, I just,
I can't think that that's not important for us
to think about and to dwell on and being like
how the, the little things that we do in our
life, these little ways that we love people,
these little ways that we provide for people,
these little places that we bring light to people.
Like what are the profound like ramifications
of that over time? Yeah. I just, that was it.
Nope. I get it. That's a, that's good. What,
what are the ramifications of that? So they get
the dream. God likes to talk in dreams. He's
already talked to Joseph in a dream. He appeared
to Mary. He and he's now told the Magi, hey,
go the other way. I mean, I get this as we as
we go through this. Joseph is this guy, his obedience
and his faith in God to me is just outstanding.
I mean, I think there should be more looked into
or talked about that because his. got a dream.
I mean, from the time Mary got pregnant to, um,
to now it's like a dream. Go to Egypt. Okay.
Gone. You know? Okay. Come back. Okay. Just checked
out. He's like, well, and we, and we talked about
this a couple episodes, Spencer and I is that,
um, because nobody recognized Jesus as Messiah
until after his death. That means that the entire
time that, uh, Jesus was growing up the entire
time that, um, Joseph was alive because he was
dead at some point. Yeah. Um, he lived with the
shame of a, of everybody assuming that Jesus
was born to another man. Right. Right? That his
wife cheated on him or that he violated the covenant
early. Correct. Right? That cloud was hanging
over his head all the time. They just walked
with that shame their entire life willingly because
the word of the Lord spoke to them. Yep. And
I often wonder how many times Christians, because
God is calling them to do something, have to
walk with shame from the world. Because the world
doesn't understand. Because the world doesn't
understand like what they have to step into.
Yeah. Right. Now, of course, there's always the
flip side of that is like sometimes people bring
things on themselves because they don't represent
Jesus well. Yeah. I have a phrase that I've said
a lot and I'll probably put on a T -shirt at
some point. If the world doesn't like you because
of Jesus, that's life. Yeah. If they don't like
you or they don't like Jesus because of you,
that's sin. Yeah. Right. And. Well, we'll never
get through if I don't hurry up here. So we'll
get back into here. So they go down to Egypt,
and they're down in Egypt, and then Herod dies,
and we kind of told the story about that. There's
conversation about he might have had gangrene
or kidney disease. Kidney disease seems more
likely to me. If you're a guy drinking a ton,
probably drinking a ton and not doing a whole
lot. Like you're just sitting on wealth. So his
kingdom is then divided among his sons. One guy
by the name of Archelaus, he rules Judea, Samaria,
and the Idumea. Sorry, I'm reading this. My eyes
crossed for a second. Archelaus is known for
his cruelty. Taken after his old man. Yep. And
he is actually later deposed by Rome. There is
Herod Antipas, who's going to be the one that
Jesus interacts with the most. This is the one
who ruled Galilee and the Perea. And this is
going to be the one that John the Baptist comes
up against also. And then there's going to be
Philip, who ruled the northeastern territories.
That's like Floria and Trichonitis. Wow, those
are different. Yeah, I always tease Nick about
not reading these names, Pastor Nick, about not
reading the names on Sunday morning, and I get
it. It's difficult. So then after Herod dies,
the angel says, okay, you can come back now.
This king has died, and his kid is in his place.
By the way, think Egypt. When does Moses come
back? Pharaoh's died. Pharaoh's died. Pharaoh's
died, and he comes back after that. So, fearing
Archelaus in Judea, Joseph settles in a place
called Nazareth. It's a small, obscure village
in Galilee. Nazareth is incredibly insignificant
in Jewish history, which, by the way, Nathaniel
and John is going to say, Nazareth, does anything
good come out of there? Exactly. Right? They're
like, I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to think
of a town that is known for, like... Nothing,
but I can't think of anything. Yeah, I wouldn't.
I would just have to pick on people. I know,
and I don't want to pick on people. And then
there's probably listeners who live there, and
I'd be like, this city, and they're like, hey,
I live there. Yeah, we'll pick on L .A. No, just
kidding. But he actually connects his, Matthew's
going to connect Jesus' residence to prophecy,
stating that he would be called a Nazarene, right?
This may refer to the Hebrew word, which is Netzer,
also known as branch, alluding to the prophecies
of the Messiah as a branch from David's line.
Or it could be a symbolic representation of humility
as Nazareth was looked really far down upon.
Either one of those I'd be totally fine with.
Especially when you start to compare Jesus with
Caesar Augustus, which is happening around the
same time. Jesus is bringing a kingdom of peace.
Caesar promised a kingdom of peace, but they're
very different kingdoms. Very much so. Caesar
is like, I was born with a golden spoon in my
hand. It was like this grand thing, and Jesus
is like, well, I was born and placed in a trough.
Yeah. Grew up in Nazareth. Yep. Very different.
Very different people. Very different. Right?
It's not what you think it is. Let's do a couple
of broad, broad, very broad conclusions from
this story. One is the story is going to show
Jesus as a stepping into a story that's been
told for a long time. So the way we call that
is we call it a fulfillment of prophecy. I call
it a little bit different. I said Jesus is stepping
into a story that's been told long before he
got there. He's stepping into a context. And
Matthew's like, hey, just so you know, this is
why Jesus is doing this. This has been the story
all along, and he's stepping right into the middle
of this. And there's the context that shows it.
Born in Bethlehem, Micah 5 .2, call out of Egypt,
Hosea 11 .1, link to sorrow and lamentation,
Jeremiah 31 .15, call to Nazarene, Hosea 11 .1,
or other places. Um, Jesus is going to be, um,
shown as this new Moses, right? So both escaping
the massacre of male infants, both called out
of Egypt, both the deliverers of God's people,
both returned back to their homeland after, uh,
back to their people after the King died. Right.
Um, the one we've, we've hit pretty hard is Gentiles
recognize Jesus. This is also going to continue
to be a theme. Right. Um, there, and in fact,
not technically a foreigner, but one of the first
people who recognizes Jesus fully as Messiah
and he reveals himself as Messiah is the woman
at the well. Right. Who is a Samaritan. The people
that Jews really don't like. Nope. Like forget
the Romans who are oppressing and enslaving them.
They really don't like Samaritans. Yep. And it's
going to be continuing to a theme in both Matthew
and Luke. Matthew is going to be talking about
the people on the outside, but Luke is going
to be talking about all humanity. These Gentiles,
there's going to be a centurion, right? There's
going to be Jairus, right? All these different
people throughout the story, even when Luke continues
into the book of Acts, he's going to tell a story
about a guy named Cornelius who the spirit falls
on. We're going to hear about an Ethiopian eunuch
who goes and shares the gospel, right? And and
it's one of these things where the there is neither
Jew nor Gentile. That doesn't mean that they
stopped existing. It just means they stopped
competing. I think that there's so much of that
written into the scriptures, a New Testament.
And Jesus brought that in to to really reveal
and show that that this is for every person on
Earth. Yeah. You know what he came for to save
everyone. Yeah. And then the last thing is everything
about the kingdom of God and the way that Jesus
brings about things is completely different from
the way the powers of the world do it. Yes. It's
going to continue to be the case. It's going
to be different than the way the Pharisees are
going to be frustrated because they're like,
well, you have to do this. And he's like, that's
not what the text is about. And the Romans or
the Zealots are going to be like, well, you must
rise up and defeat them. And he's like, leave
your knives at home. Right. They're going to
be like, well, we should not pay taxes to a tyrannical
government. Okay. Whose inscription is on the
coin? Yeah. You go ahead and give Caesar what
Caesar's, but don't you ever give them what's
God's. Yeah. Right. Like this is going to be
a reoccurring thing where he's challenging the
systems. In fact, I had a fun conversation with
a friend of mine and we differ politically. And
I said, hey, you know, one of the things my favorite
things about Jesus is. And I said, if you are
just the most liberal person ever, he has challenges
for you. And they said, yeah. And I said, also,
if you are a super conservative person. He's
got some challenges for you. Yes. And there is
no political position that you can have that
completely aligns with Jesus. Correct. And instead,
he asks you to place yourself underneath his
rule and reign and follow him as king. Yeah.
And that doesn't follow a political system. It
doesn't follow a world system. It doesn't follow
a power system except the power of the kingdom
of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit within
you. Love people. Yep. You don't have to like
them, but love them and enemies, friends alike.
Yeah. That's the message you brought. Yeah. It's
really good. It's a good message. Anything else
you can think of? Just that I really resonate
as we talk about the life of Jesus, that he really
didn't show up. like anybody expected him to
show up. And that's why it was such a challenge
for the religious leaders of the time. And, and
one of the biggest hindrances of getting his
message out there is, is religious itself. And
I'm not picking on any churches or denominations,
but the concept of religion and the rules that
we all put in place because God's mercy is too
simple. So we have to have rules. And it's not
that way. Yeah. Yeah. Is it's not that there
aren't rules there It's not that there aren't
like ways you're called into living when you're
part of the kingdom like absolutely there are
there There's rules to being part of the household.
Mm -hmm, but the rules are meant to guide you
into life. They're not meant to strangle you
right and I'm gonna I'm gonna finish up here.
Can I can you hand me that right there? so want
to let people know because when this post this
is gonna be the This will post the day after
this is actually released. So this is my first
book Um, beautiful chaos, infinite love. And,
uh, ironically, something we're talking about
here is, um, people expect God to be one way
and he's not. And so one of, one of the things
that I did in this book is I wrote about my experience
with my children and about like, what does it
mean for like me to be speaking over them and
them to hear the sound of my voice? And then
I talked about like, what does it mean for God
to be speaking over us for so many years for
us to finally hear his voice? Right. Um, When
my kids first learned how to walk, they stumbled
constantly. Was I up there as a man in the cloud,
upset and yelling at them every time they stumbled?
Or did I love them and every failure was leading
to success? You celebrated every step. Was it
about the journey? And maybe perhaps we misunderstand
what God is actually asking, like how he actually
wants to interact with us. We think that we're
supposed to be perfect. And he says, no, I'm
going to make you perfect in our relationship.
I'm going to help you walk along and grow you
into something that you're supposed to be. When
you assume, don't assume that God is mad at you.
Right. When you assume that actually God loves
you, it's going to change the way that when he
interacts with you and he corrects you and he
guides you, that suddenly it's no longer fear.
It's love. It's love. And so beautiful chaos,
because if you've ever had kids, you get that.
Absolutely true. And, you know, actually, but
for one thing here that I do want to close on
here is we talk a lot about in this podcast about...
God loves you and that the father loves you.
He loves you like a, like a father. Like we,
we love our children, but also God loves us infinitely
more. Like if we love this way, but in a lot
of, there are people who are listening who have
had parents who didn't love them. Well, uh, who
grew up in harsh, difficult homes. And, uh, that
is not the household of the father. No. And,
uh, and so I was wondering, uh, Mr. Less crunk,
if you would not just pray for those people as
we close out our podcast. Absolutely. Yeah. Father,
we pray for the people listening to this podcast
that your love would just pour into their hearts
and that they would have a clear understanding
of how gracious and how awesome and how forgiving
you are. And Lord, we have such... distorted
views of our own heavenly fathers, our own earthly
fathers versus a heavenly father. And Lord, I
pray that you would just break down those walls
and barriers and open hearts to receive your
love in its full and to change those that have.
such, um, blockage from that, that think God's
an angry God and realize that, uh, that you love
every one of us with such a deep love and such
a compassion. Father, I pray that it would just
pour out through each and every one continually
and that they would just grow in that love and
glow, grow in your grace. Thank you, Jesus. Amen.
Amen. So I just hope that if that is you, that
you receive that today, um, start listening,
start trusting, start reading, join the conversation.
You can get us at love and context at gmail .com.
We're also on social media. Uh, the book, beautiful
chaos, infinite love is available on Amazon.
Um, if you do not like to read, uh, which I mean,
I got people in my family, that's the way I did
do an audio book too. It's available on audible
Spotify, pretty much everywhere. And, uh, yeah.
Otherwise, we will see you next week, and you're
going to be like, man, I feel like Les was much
more prepared the week before. Yeah. All right.
Have a good one. All right. And that's a wrap
for today's episode of Love and Context. We hope
this conversation encouraged you and gave you
fresh insights into how we can better love God
and others through the powerful truths of the
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