Season two of Love in Context podcast welcomes you. Get ready for engaging unscripted conversations
with your hosts, Ben and Spencer. Our mission remains unchanged to explore the Bible through
the powerful lens of love. In this new season, we'll embark on a journey together, unearthing
fresh insights and gaining deeper understanding of how we can love God and live out our faith
in practical ways. So let's dive into this season of Love in Context, where love in the
context of the Bible intersect to transform our lives.
We're back and we're looking, well, maybe worse than ever. But if you're on the YouTube,
we switched to a different camera and now you can see us better. So we're you're either
you're welcome or you're we're sorry. Well, it all depends. Yeah. If they liked what they
saw before or if they didn't like what they saw before. So yeah, it's not good when your
wife is like, hey, maybe use the fuzzy camera again. Uh huh. Uh huh. Yep. All right. Well,
we're going to this is our last filler episode. We're going to be starting the mini series
in the Book of James next week. We were just finalizing scheduling people. But summer in
Alaska is just stupid. Yeah, no, it is. It is pretty crazy. It's trying to get trying
to get people scheduled and they're like, oh, I'm going this way and I'm going here.
Uh huh. Yeah. Uh huh. And when you have a good weather day, because I mean, summer in
Alaska, it's weather still hit or miss. Right. But when you have a good weather day, it's
like we better move the podcast outside or on a boat or something. Otherwise, people
aren't going to show up. Yeah. I had a conversation with a pastor friend of mine in Kodiak and
he was talking about on Sunday morning. He's like, yeah, we either have 80 people or 20,
depending on how good fishing is that day. So it but you know, that's about right. Yeah.
Well they go from, you know, it's like fishers of men, fishers of fish, like they're just
going back and forth. So yeah, that's probably not the correct thing to do. But today we're
going to we're going to do and this is going to be kind of like a sporadic mini series
is what I'm going to call it where we're taking a word that we think is probably misunderstood
or maybe not put in its proper context. And we just have a conversation about it. And
today that word is hypocrite. Hypocrite. Hypocrite. It's a fun word. Uh huh. Which by the way,
is not related to the Hippocratic oath. Those are spelled very differently. I know because
I went to go try to spell this for my notes and I definitely put hippo instead of hypo.
So that was my mistake. Yeah. So a couple of things interesting about this. So hypocrite
is a is first of all a Greek word. I believe it's upokri sot kri tas and it means play
actor and it actually has a lot of bearing in in in like tragedies and acting and the
Coliseum and and presentation plays and stuff. So in the time of Jesus, like if you remember
in the Gospels, Jesus is born in Bethlehem, but he grows up in Nazareth. Right. Nazareth
is this town of like 1200 1600 people depending on estimates during that time. Around three
to four kilometers away from Nazareth is this city by the name of Sepphoris. I know you're
guys are just like, yeah, this is really interesting, Ben. Sepphoris runs somewhere between 20 and
30 thousand people. So it's a much bigger city nearby and specifically they actually
have a Coliseum that you actually would do acting in. And so it was a it was a really
big hub as far as metropolitan the arts like it attracted a lot of these people. Now, Jesus
growing up as a carpenter slash stonemason. Right. Given Joseph's profession, it is likely
that both Joseph and any other stonemasons that would work would do a lot of work in
Sepphoris given the high demand of the area there and stonemasons not being a they're
not a plethora of stonemasons. And so Jesus grows up in Nazareth, but it's around this
place of Sepphoris where they have this thing, these people, these actors, and they're called
hypocrites. Yeah. Right. The Yuppo Kretas. And their job is exactly what an actor is
supposed to be. They're supposed to play for the audience. Right. That's what they're supposed
to do. Like that's the same thing that actors do today. Like actors put on a character,
but they're not necessarily putting on a true character. What they're doing is they're actually
presenting themselves for the purpose of the applause of the audience. Yeah. Now, typically
the audience is in on the joke or in on the story, but that's what an actor does. So now
let's talk about the Bible. Hypocrites. Now, when you grew up in the church, how do people
typically talk about hypocrites? I mean, it was a variation. Yeah. I mean, there were
some people who use it in a right in the right context, like Mike, you're talking about.
There are also, there were also the people who are like, you don't like the same type
of chicken I do. You hypocrite. I'm sorry. That was an exaggeration, but. Sadly, not
that far of an exaggeration. So like I've been called a hypocrite because I've disagreed
on minor minor theological nuances with people. Like I think it comes down to really the difference
between your personal convictions and gospel truth. Yeah. Like and we've talked about this
some too, but, but I mean, there's some people who have, let's pick on music, right? There's
some people who have the personal conviction of, I'm only going to listen to worship music.
It was great. There's some people who don't have that personal conviction on their life.
Is one person following Jesus less than the other person? Yes. Right. But that's what
we do. Right. That's exactly what we do. Yeah. To clarify, the answer is no. The answer is
no. But, but that's what we do is we say, Oh, this person's more holy or quote unquote,
because they are listening to only Christian music while this person is not, they have
less Holy. So they must have some sort of hypocrisy in their life or some sort of sin
in their life to where they're just not mature enough to understand. Right. Or there are
people I was thinking about, uh, there is a ministry Cupcake girls. You're familiar with
that one where the, they go in and they, uh, minister to, um, strippers and, and people
in that, in that industry. Right. And people, they've gotten a ton of flack for what they
do. And yet there's a lot of fruit bearing, like people come into Christ, people fighting
freedom, all this through their ministry because they're willing to go to dark places. Right.
And they've received a ton of flack because people are like, Oh, you know, you're, you're
being hypocritical because you're going to this place. No, because of their faith, they're
going to these places. So it's, it's, uh, I was thinking about, cause we're actually
going to be talking about in James. So we'll probably come back to this really quick, but
James makes a statement. He says, if you say, I love my brother and he's freezing cold and
you're like, man, I'm, I'm, I feel for you go on your way and God bless you. And you
do nothing for their physical need. You don't really care about them. Right. And, uh, like
that is, that is what a hypocrite is, is that you're, you may be playing things up maybe
for the appeal or a couple of weeks ago when we were talking with pastor Sarah, we talked
about people who are like, well, I give X amount to the church and you're like, so,
okay, like that's great. I'm good for you. And praise the woman who gave two nights over
the people who were given plenty. Yeah. And it's, and, but it's one of those things where
you're, you're playing up for the applause. And so I thought it might be kind of fun.
Uh, I went and just took, went to Bible gateway.com. So there might be others. So if you, if you
have others like, feel free to send them to us, but I just went to Bible gateway and typed
in hypocrite and just pulled out like the top 18, uh, but places in the, in the gospels
where Jesus talks about hypocrites and like just this idea of when are you playing for
the applause and when are you actually feeding into the kingdom of God? Yeah. Because a lot
of things he mentions aren't necessarily bad things, but when you're doing them for the
sake of applause, they are bad things. For example, giving money to the church is not
a bad thing. When you're giving money to the church because you feel like you're, you're
owed a modicum of authority or something that you're trying to buy authority. There's a
guy in the Bible who wanted the, uh, the Holy spirit that Peter had and he's like, well,
I'll buy this from you. Like here, I'll give you some money and then I can have it. And
he's like, well, it's not how that works, buddy. It's not how that works at all. Um,
you know, so when you're, when you're doing it for the applause, for the accolades, uh,
or people who give charitably and then make massive announcements over it, because look
how good I am, right? You're playing for the applause. Now I want to specify, cause I think
that you go too far, like people being recognized for their altruistic behavior, uh, for the
good things that they do is not a bad thing. Yeah. The question is what's the motivation
of the heart, which is a lot of what the Bible is talking about in throughout its text. Yes.
Like, what's the motivation here when I do these things out here and it makes a big difference.
So the first place, uh, there's a number of these where Jesus is actually talking during
the sermon on the Mount. And so in chapter six, he, uh, he actually is talking about
giving and he says, so when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets as
the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets to be honored by others. Truly
I tell you, they have received their reward in full. So is the issue giving to the needy?
No, no. The issue is you have these trumpets and these people announcing and being like,
look at Spencer. He's so great. He gave money to the poor people. You know, like, like that's
a problem because of all the focus is actually on you. It's not actually on the people or
the kingdom of God or like you're, you're playing for the applause of people. There's
a juxtaposition here though that, that I think we have to address a little bit too is at
the same time we want to lead by example. And so to lead by example, people have to
be able to see it. Right? So there's, there is this balance of people. Do you have to
be able to see that you, if you're leading by example, that you are modeling these things?
Correct. Right. And so, but sometimes in modeling that we can take on the triumphant position
of look how great I am. Look what I do. Look what I give. Right. Right. And, and Ian, that
can be unintentional. Like we might not be intentionally doing that. Uh, so I mean, examples
being like we do a lot for our churches, right? For the church that we go to, we both do a
lot and we've had people be like, Oh, we've, I've had people come up to me and like, try
to put me on a higher pedestal than I am. And the same with you where it's like, where
it's like, no, we're just trying to serve our body. Right. You want, we want to model
this, but we don't want to be doing it for our own applause. Right. One. And also it
becomes this thing of like every modeling job is an invitation, right? Like I'm, I'm
running after Jesus. Like, why don't you come with me? Yeah. Like that's what we're doing.
Well, and I, and I did hear specifically on the money thing, there's a story that was
told by a Bible scholar about the basins that they would actually give money into. And,
uh, the way that they were constructed is you could either just like put your money
down and we go in, but there was actually a way that you could actually sling the money
in to make a really like loud noise. Like it was like a confidence noise that this was
happening and, uh, and they were talking about how it was practice for the wealthier people
to do that. Uh, even to the point where like, you know how like smaller denominations equal
bigger amounts of money that would get smaller denominations. So they were throwing more,
uh, coin into something. Yeah. Right. Like that's, that's not modeling. That's showboating.
Yeah. Like, are you paying for the applause of people? And like, people should notice
you actually. I had that conversation with somebody about fasting because they're like,
well, I'm fasting, but you know, nobody's supposed to know. And I was like, no, people
will know you're fasting. I was like, but you shouldn't be walking around going,
oh, I'm so hungry because I'm fasting to the Lord. Like if you are a teacher and you have,
you have disciples or you have people who are learning from you, you should model that
behavior. Yeah. But once again, are you playing to applause or are you playing for the kingdom
of God? And you might not even be going for the applause, right? Might just start giving you the
applause and you might be like, oh, I like this. Right. Right. And then that that's where we need
to come check ourselves. That's a, that's a dangerous place. I have found myself in the past
in worship music, right? When you lead music, it's, it's like, I definitely have fallen victim.
I don't say victim because like, it's my fault that I fell for it. Yeah. But I fallen prey to
this whole thing of like, people are like, oh, you know, you're, you're just anointed by God to do
these things. And you're like, I am, I am anointed by God. You know what I mean? Like it starts to,
you start to hear it and you start to let it kind of play in your mind. And, uh, but like that is
like, those, those are the roots of sin. And like, they really start to really corrupt you over time.
Yeah. And, and so the other thing that makes it hard, especially in American culture,
is the fact that the squeaky wheel gets oil, right? Um, if you are like, if you are doing things,
well, there's a chance that like, people are going to notice, but they're going to be like, oh,
that's going really well. And we're just going to leave that alone. Right. Right. Even though
there might be issues that need to be fixed. Right. But then the people who are like, hey,
look at me, look at these problems, let's address these problems. And they like boast themselves up
a lot of times people give attention to that because they're more vocal than the people who
are like, Hey, I'm who are exercising what first Peter, what Peter says in first Peter, where he's
like, Hey, work diligently with your hands, be people of good rapport. Right. And so like,
it, there's all, there's, I think there's just a little more facets to culturally, if we apply it
to our culture today, where it's like, okay, like how do we, how do we live this out in a healthy way?
Right. And I think there is a lot of, uh, in the Bible, there's a lot of like be in this world,
but not of this world. So you have to be in the world and you got to walk in the world,
but you gotta be not be of this world, uh, to gain your life. You actually have to lose it.
Yep. To be the first, you have to be the last to be the greatest. You have to be the servant
and a lot of like these competing ideas that, that force you to walk oddly enough, Jesus talk about
it, walk a very narrow road, right? That you're, you're not really, it's not really this way or
that way. And, uh, we've talked about in the past, there's, there is a lot of freedom in like having
absolute, this is what you do. It's a lot harder to walk and with that tension and wrestling,
but it's a lot more full of life. You know what I mean? When you're, when your theological stances
and you're, you're walking out your, your faith and fear and trembling, you're like, okay, how do
I love people well, but also hold them accountable and like, am I airing too much side and having
these conversations with yourself on a regular basis are actually a good thing. Yeah. Not a bad
thing. Yeah. How do, how do I model, model my life with Jesus well, but not, uh, but not lift that
up above my relationship with Jesus. Correct. Right. If that sentence makes any sense. It does,
you know, and if you're, if you're sitting around and you're like, man, I love talking to people
about Jesus, but now I have to wonder, am I loving people well enough? That is a good question.
Like that's always a good question. And then you, if you're on the other side, you're like,
I always want to love people and treat them with respect, but I feel like I'm not holding
anybody accountable. That's also a good question. Yeah. Right. Like those, those are good things to
hold in tandem. And, uh, the reality is, is like, well, I've never walked on a tight rope well,
never walked well on a tight rope, I should say, but, uh, finding your balance, you do a little bit
of teetering back and forth, like as you learn to find your balance now, and once you've done a
really long time, like those people, they just jump up there and they're like, right across it.
Not me. Yeah. I, I'd be like, whoa, really heavy one way or the other.
I remember when slack lines were becoming just a big thing. Yeah. And, uh, and people would watch
videos of these people who are like really good at slack line and like, oh, and they go buy a slack
line. And then it was the most entertaining thing to watch the favorite. My favorite thing is when
they actually video it the first time they do it. Yeah. And then it's like, it's like, oh boy, like
you can't even stand up on this thing. And then like, um, and so there's actually a scene, uh,
from the office where, uh, where there's not a sponsor, not a sponsor, uh, where there's a,
where there's a slack line and someone walks across it and then Dwight's like, I can do this. And
then he just like beats himself up. Yep. Like just like, yeah. And it's a lot of times that's what
our life looks like. It's like, it's like, this is what I'm doing. And really it's like, no, you're
just, you're trying to do that, but that's not what's going on. So like, we can have the same
thing going on when we're following Jesus, where we move to the next level. And then we're like,
Jesus, where we're going to be like, I'm following Jesus and this is what I'm doing. And then you
look at their life and it's like, are you sure? Like coming back to the modeling idea though,
there's that tension though. There's that tension. There's that balancing act of like,
Hey, we want to model this, but we don't want to model this to the point where we're like, Hey,
look at how well I'm modeling my life with Jesus. Right. Well, and to your point, actually the next
two, Jesus in the sermon on the Mount. So when you pray, right. The expectation is you're going
to pray, right? Don't be like the hypocrites. They love to pray standing in the synagogues and
have street corners to be seen by others. Truly. I tell you, they received the reward in full. Now
the second half of that is it says, go into your closet. But one of the things that was told to me
by, um, Marty Solomon, which I didn't, wasn't aware of is that their prayer shawl, when they actually
put it over their head is considered their prayer closet. And I was like, well, that's interesting.
I did not know that. So that actually makes it way different than actually going and finding a
closet, which also makes sense. If you've seen like, uh, middle Eastern architecture, they didn't
really have closets. They're not a mid-century American. And, uh, so praying and that's when you
fast, when you fast, uh, don't look somber as the hypocrites do for they disfigure their faces to
show you they are fasting. Truly. I tell you, they received the reward in full. Once again,
this is something we put on display. Like we're going to fast and it's okay to even talk to people
while you're fasting. I'm fasting because I'm seeking God an answer in this, right? I'm fasting
for a breakthrough in this in my life. Right. And so people can also join you and praying with you
or for you and those types of things. But when you're like, I'm hungry, you know, I haven't eaten
for 42 days and that's a long time, but I probably would grumble too. If I didn't eat for 42 days.
Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's not a, um, it's, it's good to fast. Um, and it's good.
It's even okay to talk about fasting, but what's, what is the purpose? Is it because you're talking
about what God is doing in you or are you playing for applause? Do you want people to see the
suffering servant or do you want to serve the suffering servant? That's Jesus by the way,
in case anybody didn't get the Isaiah reference. Uh, here's one that we've talked about a lot.
It says this, you hypocrite first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly
to remove the speck from your brother's eye. We have a tendency in Christian culture to
judge everybody else by their actions and ourselves by our intentions. I'll say that one more time,
because I think it probably goes by quickly. We have a tendency to judge other people by their
actions and ourselves by our intentions. Um, this is very clear when you have a conversation with
someone and they're like, well, I didn't mean for that to do blah, blah, blah. Well, first of all,
that's not an apology, right? If you, if you actually feel bad about something that happened,
that's not an apology. Uh, and whether or not you meant for something to happen, it did happen.
And, uh, I just, it's, this is very prominent in, especially when you go across to
denominational lines, it's very prominent that we, uh, we look at other Christians and we tend to
judge them by what actually happens versus what they're intending to happen. And so,
I think that's a very important thing to think about when you're talking about what's going to
happen. And, and rather than having grace with people where we're standing in judgment, I was
like, and then we have a completely blind eye to what's going on around us.
So this verse is actually more of a trust statement. It's more of a, who do you trust?
Because, because if the verse is, um, if the verse is applied to everybody, right,
right. Which is this verse is applicable to everybody, right. Then we all have the
work to remove that plank. Right. Theoretically you and God. Yeah. Theoretically you and God,
right. Are doing the work to remove that plank so that you can see clearly and then be a vessel
of the Lord to help someone else with theirs. Be a vessel of the Lord. Yep. Not a vessel of you.
Yep. Yeah. And so oftentimes when you look at this and be like, we need to, we look at this verse,
like we need to correct all these things in our lives and then other people's lives. It's like,
we're doing the work because he's doing the work in your life. And if he's, and if this is applicable
to everybody and he's removing the plank from my eye, then I have to also assume that he's doing
the same work for you. Removing the plank from your eye. Right. Right. And the question, and then
there does come a point where the Lord might use you to be like, Hey, you're going to remove that.
You're going to help me finish getting the last spec out. Right. Right. Because we're talking
with difference between a board and the spec. Right. And so, but we have, but the question is,
who do you trust? Because if we're, if we're stepping in being like, Hey, I'm just going to
jump on and try to get somebody else to spec out. Right. We're saying, all right, we don't actually
trust that the Lord is working. Yeah. And it's, and it's, it's really hard by the way,
when you see something broken, not to want to try to jump in and fix it. Oh, very hard. Like I
run into that all the time in my, um, the way that my brain works. I'm like, Oh, it's super easy.
We'll just fix that. Just go and do this, this, this. And if I did that, it wouldn't actually fix
anything because nobody actually learned how to do any better. Yep. Right. Or actually control any
better. Um, I run into that in business a lot when I see certain businesses struggling with X, Y,
or Z. Right. I'm like, Oh, I could step in and fix it. But I'm like, that's not actually going to
be helpful. Well, and taking time to evaluate the problem too. Right. And seeing, and taking time
to evaluate the problem and seeing, okay, what actually needs to be done, um, is super helpful
as well. Uh, so like I'm doing a bunch of house projects around the house, right? If I just jumped
in and started just breaking things up, it's not actually going to help. Right. Like you gotta go
in with a plan. You gotta go in and say, okay, here's what's wrong. Here's what needs to come
out. Here's what needs to be fixed. This is how we're going to address this. Here's the supplies
I need. Right. We do the same. We do the same thing in our lives. And we're evaluating sin in
our lives as we're not just saying, Oh, this is sinful. Get rid of it. We have to sit there and
say, all right, Lord, help me evaluate how deep does this go? Where's the root of this? Right. If
I just cut a plan off at the top, it's going to grow back. Right. We have these trees in Alaska.
They're called alder trees and they're probably elsewhere besides Alaska. But, um, they, what,
what a lot of people do is they'll go and they'll, they'll chop them up and chop them down, but they
won't rip up the roots. Yeah. And they just grow back. Yeah. And they grow back quickly. Like they
grow back so quickly. Uh, like the ones I chopped down, I think, like three or four years ago,
they're already still at like knee height now. And, uh, it was, it's, it's, it's kind of one of those
things is like, you're like, okay, well you can chop it down. And yeah, sure. That takes care of
it for a period of time. But if you're actually going to cultivate a land, you gotta go and take
the things up by the roots. Yep. Right. And if we're going to have a life cultivated to being a
follower of Jesus, which I believe that's what it means to apprentice in the way, right. To cultivate
your life, to actually be a place. Uh, this story of Jesus tells about this farmer who spreads seed.
Yeah. Uh, yes, you should know what kind of soil you currently are, but the goal is always to be
good soil. And so if you have thorns and thistles in your life, well, you know, there's a solution
to that, right? Yeah. You tear them up. Yeah. Uh, you tilt the ground, you remove the rocks,
you know, you do these types of things too, with the work of the Holy spirit in your life.
And, uh, I was like, the goal is to actually be this, this fruitful place where we can receive
the word and through the tending of the gardener, we grow into 30, 60, a hundred times the yield that's
put into our life. Yeah. It's always the work of God in us, through us, with us. Yeah. Right.
Absolutely. So one of the places he brings up hypocrites a lot is, um, not surprisingly talking
to the religious leaders of the day. There's a, there's a reason why even incorrect when they're
your word is using correctly. It's often applied to, uh, religious people. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the,
he has a section in, uh, Jesus has a section where he gives seven woes to the teachers and the law
and Pharisees. So one of them, it says, woe to you, teachers, the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites.
So you who are playing to the plane, to the crowd, you shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in
people's faces. You yourselves do not enter nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Yeah.
First of all, that's, that's not a, uh, that's not a great woe to get, but it's, it's really, uh,
where, where you're making this barrier to the kingdom of God so high. Once again,
this comes back to your idea of trust. Do we actually trust the work of God to do in people's
lives? Right. Um, I have been in locations with people who profess to follow Jesus and they talk
about, um, they're like, okay, well now you need to do this and this and this and this and this and
this and this, right? They, they give us litany of things, especially right after somebody says, yes.
Yeah. Right. And I don't, what I think maybe the temptation, what I'm saying is saying that I don't
believe in discipleship after conversion. That's not what I'm talking about. Um, but when you're
giving people this list of things like these dues and don'ts and expecting their life to instantly
rearrange itself rather than God actually working through it,
I feel like you're sending people up for failure. Yeah. Right. Um, that you're, you're not actually
trusting the work of the Holy spirit to work in people's lives as they grow. Um, actually even
give people a chance to grow. Yeah. You know, the cultivation of a, of a plant doesn't happen. The
second that it pops out of the seed. Yeah. You get growth takes time. Yeah. It takes time. Um,
the next one he says is, what do you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites, you travel
over land and sea to win a single convert. And when you succeeded, you make them twice as much
a child of hell as you are. Okay. So lots of thoughts there. Yeah. Lots of thoughts there.
All right. Sure. We'll, we'll springboard into this. All right. This whole conversion,
discipleship topic. Um, let's just go there for a moment. Um, we often take this route of like,
okay, how do we track converts? Right. It's okay. It's like, okay. And then they convert,
they're like, oh great. You're saved. And then one or two things happens. Usually one is that you
ignore them and hope they get better and improve. Just not, not a good method by the way. Or two,
you apply this list of dictates of this is what it looks like to follow Jesus. Right. And then you
show an image of what you're supposed to look like negating the fact that you're supposed to be in
relationship with him. And then like, and then the relationship piece are often like treat. We often
can treat as a side as like a footnote, right? Of like, Hey, you want to look this way. You
don't want to drink. Don't chew. Don't date those who do type thing. Right. And oh, by the way,
you're also going to be in a relationship with Jesus. Right. And it's like, it's like, well,
shouldn't we first off, like shouldn't it start with the relationship piece of like, when we're
saying yes to Jesus, we're entering into a relationship with him, right? A lifelong
commitment, a covenant with him. He, we are going to draw closer to him. He's going to draw closer
to us. Our relationship with him is going to be strengthened. And over time, while that is happening,
we are going to be converted more into his image and into his likeness and look more like him
and be better versions of him to the world. The ironic thing about that is none of our other
relationships would we ever do that. Yeah. Like, uh, for example, we'll just take marriage. Like
the second we married, I didn't tell my wife, okay, here's the things you're going to do.
Uh huh. Well, at least I wouldn't have been, well, the people who do that often end up divorce. Yeah,
very quickly. Right. Because rather than, uh, focusing on relationship, getting to know each
other, investing in each other, spending time together, uh, joining spiritually, physically,
emotionally. Right. And then from that you become something, right. You're dictating what you
believe that they're, they're going to be. And rather than, uh, actually listening to God and
relying on God for his wisdom in this situation. And that's problematic. And, and let's even use
like you and me, for example, uh, we met three or four, three or four years ago. Yeah. Three,
three years ago. And, uh, can you imagine if we placed expectations on each other, the first time
we hung out for who we were going to be to each other? Oh yeah. And it like, we just wouldn't be
able to do that. And our friendship would have ended very quickly. We have very different lives,
very different lives. Right. Like you, I mean, like for example, like you have the luxury of
staying in bed till seven every morning, right? I do not. It is a luxury. Let me tell you. Right.
Like, like, uh, for those who are like, what do you mean? I was like, his wife's early, early riser
gets up with the kids. My wife leaves for work at three 30 in the morning. So I have no choice,
but to get up with my kid and your kid is an early riser. Oh yeah. Yeah. So there's both of those
things. We've had a number of people who've been like, Oh, just put her to bed later. And I'm like,
it doesn't work. People who say that, like when they're like, Oh, just put into bed later. They'll
sleep later. I was like, no, they won't. They will not. My kids up at five every morning, five,
five 30 every morning, ready to roll and like gets up and it's like, I want breakfast now. And it's
like, Oh, okay. Um, but like we have very different lives. And like, if I, if you put the expectations
of your life on me, I'd be like, bro, that's not going to work. Well, and like you think about,
um, like another thing like I do that you don't do is I read a lot. Like I mean, it's not saying
I Spencer reads. I'm not saying he doesn't read. He, he, he learned last week, last year,
but like I read, you know, hundreds of books a year, right. And like, and for me, like that's,
that's a place where like it allows my mind to stretch and mold and stuff in ways that I'm not
able to do other ways. Right. And it's a way that connects with me. It doesn't work for everybody.
Yeah. And we read like the books that we read are different. Like you read a lot of fantasy stuff,
which is great. And like a lot of nonfiction too, but like, yeah, I would do a lot of everything.
I just accept murder mystery. Sorry guys. If you're a murder mystery person versus me, like really
the only two things I really read is theology and history. Like those, like, those are really the
only things that I'm interested in reading about. And so, so like we have different preferences on
that. You prefer your fantasy and cinema form. Oh yeah. Like I will, I am 100% unashamed of type
of person where you're like, Oh, this is a great fantasy book. I'm like, awesome. I'm going to wait
till the movie comes out and never read the book and then be your friend. Who's like, that movie
was awesome. Yeah. Oh, by the way. Okay. So little, little aside, we'll get back to hypocrites in just
a second, but, um, the, uh, one of the worst, uh, they say, you know, like, you don't like, don't,
don't curse people this way. Like cursing this way is you say, I hope your, your favorite book
is badly adapted into a movie. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, that hurts. That hurts. That hurts too
much. So this, this idea of conversion and expectation, right. And, uh, and when you have a,
when you have people, especially when you have them conform to you, uh, coming back to this idea
of going over, over land and sea and making them twice the son of hell you are, we don't want people
to become like us. We want them to become like Jesus. Yeah. Right. And hopefully like if we're
saying like, Hey, when you see Jesus in me, follow after those things. But like, even if I'm teaching
and discipling somebody, I was like, I make mistakes all the time and I don't want people to become me.
And like, if I was discipling you, you shouldn't become me. No, you should become like Jesus. If
he were you. Right. And, uh, it's, it's this difference of expectation. I was like, cause what
I don't want you to do is I don't want you to double down and make something that is a, my
personality, my relationship with God, something that is about, about me, a staple of you say,
everybody needs to do this. You end up with some really damaging theological ideas,
which we've definitely seen over the last 400 years. Well, and more so we've seen over the
last 10 years. Correct. I mean, we see that with social media, like, and we're one of those people
now, right? Where we are darn tick tockers. I know where we're posting our thoughts, our opinions
on stuff. And then there's going to be people who agree and disagree. And then there's going to be
people who are going to be like, I wholeheartedly disagree with everything they said. And here's the
reason why. And then they'll stitch us in a reel or whatever. Right. Like that's going to happen
because we have a myriad of opinions and just way easier access to sharing those opinions.
When the reality is how are you loving God and how are you loving people and are you doing those
things? Because that's the root of not being a hypocrite. Right. Well, and that even gets back
to the whole root of why we have this podcast, right? Is to have authentic conversation about
faith. Yeah. Right. It would I mean, you and I agree on a lot of things. We don't agree on
everything. And the fact that we don't, it helps us actually have real conversations
and actually talk about those things. Or who was it that said that we're always always arguing with
each other? I don't know. I remember somebody said that once. And I was like, I didn't even
know we were arguing how we're just talking. Yeah. Yeah. So it's okay to talk and also to disagree
and to have like those kinds of conversations. It's totally fine. Yeah. To put it in context,
just so you guys know, Ben and I are both the type of people where it's like we can disagree and be
like, okay. Yeah. And then I'll be like, Ben, you're wrong. And he'll be like, no, Spencer,
you're wrong. We're like, all right, well, we're going to walk away from this. And then
I'm just going to know Ben's always wrong on that front. So.
Oh, man. All right. This is we have a bunch more we could do, but I want to, I want to just stop on
this one because I think this is going to be a good one for us to, because I think you guys are
getting this idea of playing for the crowd. Right. I want to get this last one because I think it's a
really important one about talking about relationship with God. Yeah. What do you teachers of the law and
Pharisees, you hypocrites, you give a 10th of your spices, mint, dill, cumin, but you've neglected
the more important matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced
the latter without neglecting the former. Okay. I frequently, when I've heard people talk about
that verse, they're like, oh, well, you gotta, you need to focus on the weight of your portion
of the laws. Like, okay, two things you need to know. Yes, you do love justice, faithfulness.
These type of things are, are more important than, uh, than the tithe, right? Making sure that you're
giving a 10th of your, your cumin and your dill and your mint. Cause I know all of you growing that.
I think my wife is trying to, I think all those things that probably sounds about right.
Like these, these are not things that you shouldn't do. Like they are legitimate things that need to
happen. But when these are your focus, um, we, we told an analogy once it's like, if somebody walks
in and they say, I have a headache and I see a knife sticking out of their side, it's not that
the headache doesn't matter. You're going to deal with the knife. I'm going to deal with the knife
first because the knife is a much bigger deal. Um, and that's like a negative example, but when I'm,
when I'm going and having a conversation with people, uh, people in the world, people who are
in the church, I'm going to first focus on trying to love people well. Yep. And it's not that the
things in their life don't matter. It's that they are not the highest priority. The highest priority
is making sure that they know they're loved, that they are welcome into this kingdom of God
and that there there's an invitation for them. Right. Those other things will take care of
themselves. But once again, to your point, who do I trust? You know, if I'm inviting them into this
kingdom lifestyle and I don't want to like, there shouldn't be a bait and switch for sure. Like you
need to let people know it's like, Hey, if you fall after Jesus, like it's his way. Yep. You know,
and uh, like he'll have patience with you, but it's his way. You don't, you don't get to dictate
the terms. Yeah. So I agree. So once again, this idea of hypocrites, it's not, uh, it's not about
just, it's not just shallowly like, Oh, you're a hypocrite because you don't do things the way that
I think that you should do them. When you claim to follow after something, but your life doesn't
reflect it. When you play for the audience, when you do things for the attention of other people,
rather than to actually, uh, bring glory to God, you take on the role of hypocrite because you're,
you're like an actor playing for the audience and that's not who we want to be. Yeah. Well,
at least that's not who I want to be. I mean, maybe somebody that's exactly who you want to be,
in which case I trust Jesus to work with you, you know? So, uh, yeah, thanks for being here with us
guys. This is a shorter episode this week. We'll be back next week talking about the book of James.
Yep. That's going to be fun. Uh, I will recommend that you read chapters one and two in prep and,
uh, you're going to recognize when you go through that, there's, there's a lot of references to
Torah. And so if you have not gone through, virtually all references to Torah. So if you
have not gone through season one in our conversations, might, may just, uh, check out a
few portions of that because we'll probably backwards reference a fair amount. Yeah.
Till next time.
And that's a wrap for today's episode of Love and Context. We hope you enjoyed this engaging
conversation and gained valuable insights into the powerful message of love within the Bible.
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Yeah. All right. Nick might, Nick might,
Nick could be like, I'm going to time this and see how long they say podcast.