Season two of Love in Context podcast welcomes you. Get ready for engaging unscripted conversations
with your hosts, Ben and Spencer. Our mission remains unchanged to explore the Bible through
the powerful lens of love. In this new season, we'll embark on a journey together, unearthing
fresh insights and gaining deeper understanding of how we can love God and live out our faith
in practical ways. So let's dive into this season of Love in Context, where love in the
context of the Bible intersect to transform our lives.
Guess what, everyone? We're actually here this time. We actually made a plan and all
showed up.
And it, I mean, we might've had to have a reminder text five minutes after 10 for somebody
will remain anonymous. They will remain nameless. They will remain nameless. You make it make
it sound like you've got a lot of family that is, that is vying for your attention every
moment of every day.
Definitely like this was the top of my priority, which is why I was here waiting in the parking
lot for you.
She actually had like made breakfast and no, that's not, that's not. We are a Love in Context
podcast with Ben and Spencer. And we were once again joined by our really good friend,
pastor Sarah from over at Sal Tonga's Alliance Church. We're so glad that she's here with
us.
Thank you. Thank you.
We have you scheduled for multiple episodes over the next future. So we're very excited
about that. And we are concluding our little mini series on the spiritual guest today.
Yes we are.
Yeah. It only took us eight weeks to do a six week series with two episode break in
the middle.
It's all right. It happens.
Well what happened is we were recording and then everybody in the world got sick. So we
couldn't, we couldn't schedule and get time to do it. Cause then your family was sick
and then my family was sick and then, and so we recorded a couple of episodes and then
we were going to do it the next time and we couldn't get schedules lining up. And so we're
like, you know what, two filler episodes, but we had one called the kingdom of trolls,
which was a lot of fun where we talked about how the church is kind of becoming a kingdom
of trolls online, having comments about each other on social media.
I really can't wait to hear that.
Yeah, it's actually posted.
Okay.
You know how the best thing you can do when someone's wrong is just go to social media
and just blast them.
Oh yeah. That is absolutely the best.
That is actually Spencer's advice all the time.
See that's in Matthew 17.
17.
See Matthew 17 says you post on social media and then in Matthew 18 you go to them face
to face.
If you actually go to the book of second opinions, there's a lot of really interesting content
regarding a lot of those things. So, so, okay. You know, I think we're probably the best
place to start in healing is having this conversation. What does the Bible say about healing?
Right. So let's go all the way back into Torah and take a look at like what God has done
through that area. So healing is a lot of different things, physical, spiritual, emotional.
In fact, we're going to touch a little bit on like what is deliverance because there
is that is always going hand in hand with the ministry of Jesus.
So in Torah, there's actually a number of times where we'll take, we'll take Sarah,
for example, we're going to take Rebecca. For example, we talked about them both in
women in ministry is that they were barren. They couldn't have children. And in the case
of Isaac, Isaac prayed for Rebecca. God heard him and then her womb was opened. Right. Same
thing with, with in the case of Rachel, like and Leah, God heard their cries and he opens
the wounds. Right. All throughout the blessings and the curses that happened through Torah,
God keeps making these statements. He says, if you, if you follow my obey my commands
and obey my, my, my, I'm going to say wishes. That's not the word I'm looking for. My commands
are my instructions. That's a better word than wishes. Yes. Two very different words.
Very, very different words. I'm really glad that you have a concrete word now. Instructions
wishes was not the one I wanted. Covenant is actually the word I was thinking of my covenant.
I was where I was looking for. There's that theology coming out in you. Yeah. That's somebody's
just going to cut that one being like, Ben thinks that God grants wishes. So even though
actually what would probably happen is pastor Nick will quote me as love and out of context
every time, every time, every time. But God says, if you, if you go and do these things
that he's actually going to start reversing the things that happened coming out of Eden
that you're going to have lots of children that your fields are going to produce that
your animals are going to multiply and that you're going to expand your territory, which
by the way, it comes back to this whole idea of be fruitful and multiply. Um, you have
the, the idea that the ground is cursed because of man. Yeah. Right. Um, we talked about how
Tim Mackey has the, the piece where he talks about, uh, women are going to have difficulty
in getting pregnant. Right. This has been, it's been translated as childbearing, but
it's actually the difficulty in getting pregnant, which is like the flip side of the curse of
the land, right? The fruit from the list of the boom versus fruit from the land. But when
you follow God, uh, you actually reverse that you come back to Eden, which is very much
the whole story of the Bible through Jesus is that God is bringing us back to the garden.
He's bringing us back to this relationship. Yeah. And, uh, then you have Elijah and Elisha
in the Bible who, uh, Elisha and Elijah who, um, bring people back from the dead. They,
they heal people, their, their skin conditions are healed. There's a famous story with Naaman
where he's told to bathe in the, in the water for seven times, not because the water is
special, but because, uh, Elisha is calling something into him. Like he's, he's revealing
something to this man coming all the way into the New Testament. So the basic reason I want
to mention the old Testament before we talk about Jesus is sometimes I have this, this
idea in, in church evangelical thought that Jesus came and he was the first person to
heal, which is not true. It was happening all throughout history, all throughout the
Bible. Miraculous things were happening. In fact, there's some crazy things that happened
in the old Testament. Yeah. Some borderline insane things. Well, backing up to Moses a
little bit, there's just a little interesting connection piece for you. Uh, his encounter
at the burning bush foreshadows the, the, um, future of what the Lord's going to do for
his people. Uh, cause you have, uh, you have to put your hand in the coat disease, put
it back in and it's healed. You have the miraculous signs through your staff on the ground. Here's
a snake, pick it up. So you have the healing, the miraculous, and then leading into the
deliverance. Right. So I want to center in because we're talking, we're going to be talking
about where, where's the place for healing deliverance inside of the church. And so I
want to center in on really what Jesus speaks because most of the people who are listening
or most of the people who are interested in what we have to say are people who want to
follow Christ. Right. Um, so I want to go to Matthew 10 where Jesus takes his 12 disciples
and he's sending them out. Now this, this is one of two places where Jesus sends his
disciples out. Once he sends 12 and once he's in 72, um, the bigger part that I want to,
I want to focus in on is this part where Jesus tells him he's, you're going to go and proclaim
this message. And as you're going, you're going to heal a sick, raise the dead, cleanse
the leper. And because you freely received, you're going to freely give. Right. Now the
reason I wanted to mention that is because there is a, there is a trend in the church
where people talk about Jesus commissioned his apostles, but that's not a message for
us to this day. And the main reason I wanted to continue reading is cause you're going
to recognize a lot of those verses that are quoted in a lot of theology books about how
to live the Christian life. You know, there are going to be like sheep among wolves. You're
going to need to be as innocent as does and crafty as snakes, right? That people are going
to hate you because of me. You're not greater than your master. If they're only meant to
the apostles and these are all part of one discourse, which pieces are meant for them
and which pieces are meant for us? Cause you can't just tiki-tack decide which pieces you
want and which pieces you don't. Now, some of those cores are going to contextually be
appropriate. Um, you're gonna have to translate those to America because we don't, um, I mean,
there's not a lot of dust. It rains a lot here. There's not a lot of dust. So you're
not going to shake your dust off your feet when you go somewhere, right? Right. The mud.
You're going to shake the mud off your feet. But, uh, this call that Jesus gives us, uh,
to go and share the gospel is first that the kingdom of heaven is here and then to bring
the reality of the kingdom into people's lives. And we've talked about like the spiritual
gifts, love God, love other people, know the voice of God, exhibit the fruit of the spirit
and then walk these things out in humility. Right. So before we get into experiential
or, uh, our stories of like what God has done through healing, I want to set this precedent.
Jesus is very clear. We, we should be about the kingdom business, which involves putting
broken things back together. Yes. Yes. Right. And we're talking in, with that context, when
we're talking healing, we're talking multi, there's multiple layers to it. Correct. Right.
Like a lot of times, a lot of times, at least the church I grew up in, when we talked healing,
we thought of like the crazy person coming and laying hands on you and being like, be
saved, be healed. Yeah. You can now walk straight type thing. And, um, which are, which I've
seen that happen. And I've also had times where, where I've seen people pray over people
for healing and it hasn't happened. Right. Right. And so, so we need to take that and
we need to take it in stride. Agreed. And we also have to remember that not everything
that needs to be healed is visible to the human eye. Yeah. And so a lot of times the
healing that is being done through the power of the spirit can be instantaneous and it
could be something that we know nothing about because it is so deeply hidden in that person's
story or as opposed to the ones where we can see someone that no longer has cancer, but
we cannot diminish the fact that everything that is broken is supposed to come underneath
the authority of heaven and earth and come to full restoration. Right. That is, that
has been God's plan since the very beginning, ever since we failed in the garden. Right.
So would you say then, Sarah, that maybe the, the, the tendency in the Christian church
at times is for people who are looking towards healing, that they pursue the, I'm going to
say demonstrative things, the things that you see and they neglect the, the other portions
because it's meant to be, it's a cohesive unit, right? Like body, soul, spirit. It's
not one thing that is, um, it needs addressing because I know for a fact in my life that
a broken heart hurts a lot more than a broken back. Yeah. That's good. Maybe not so much
physically, but you carry it with you around and it, it affects my relationships and it
affects my way I interact with my kids, you know? And, uh, if somebody says, you know,
while the broken back is the more important thing, I was like, clearly you've never walked
around with a broken heart or a broken spirit. I think the, I think really what the danger
is Ben, I hear what you're saying, but it's the fact that we have a tendency as humans
to compare pain. So we, it's not necessarily us questioning, uh, the use of, of healing
or what does healing look like? What we're actually doing is we're comparing pain. Sure.
And when we come and we go, well, that's just, that's just emotional pain or that's just
mental health issues. Oh, that's just, come on. It's just a kidney stone. I've had so
much worse than that. I had cancer. Get over yourself. Yeah. Or are you kidding me? Your
mom yelled at you. I was beaten half of my life growing up. Like, so we have as humans,
we come in and we want to compare our pain. And I think that is the very first thing that
stops the spirit of God to be fully unleashed in healing. Because if we aren't aware of
our, um, hindrances or our biases or our comparisons that when we're making with people and we
go and we're like, I'm going to pray for you. Yeah. Spencer, really? I'm going to pray for
you right now. Cause you're crying about your, your broken, your dead cat. You know, there's,
there's ownership, not only in us as the ministers that are supposed to be enacting that authority
that Jesus gives, but then there's also that person's own biases that they're bringing
into this. Can I trust God? Can I really believe that God cares that I'm hurting over this?
Right. Yeah. I, it's so good. I, I a hundred percent on board with you. Um, which, which
is yeah, exactly why I was mentioning that it's like emotional things. Like they are
disruptive. Like it is, it is difficult for me. I think I talked on the last episode,
how I'm finding that my three year old is a lot like me, um, developmentally and that
I have had a struggled with low EQ emotional intelligence for a really long time. My wife
has done a good job of like bringing me up to stuff, but, uh, and my friends still are
like, you can't say that to somebody. I was like, okay, good to know. Good to know. I
can't say that. And so like sometimes like if something happened, I was like, oh, why
do you care? Just brush it off. Yeah. Right. Like that's the way my brain works because
that particular thing would just roll off of me. Right. And then, but I also know how
much it hurts when somebody does say something and it sticks with me. Yeah. And it, like,
it's like, it's like Teflon on a pan, man. It sticks there. Well, that just reminds us
that the tongue has the power to burn down a forest. We're going to have a good conversation
about that coming up in James. So just saying it's going to be good. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah,
with one of the rules that my wife and I have in our marriage is that we're not going to
compare our pain. Like you were just talking about this earlier. Like that's a rule that
we have in our marriage. Like if I'm having a bad day, like she doesn't get to come in
and say, well, I've had a deal with this today. Right. And vice versa. If she's having a bad
day, I don't get to come in and say, well, I've had a deal with worse today. Yeah. Right.
It's like, no, I'm going to step out of whatever I'm dealing with to be there for her. And
then she's going to do the same for me when the time comes. And it's been one of the healthiest
things in our marriage because as soon as you get into that comparing back and forth,
it just wrecks your relationship with whoever you're comparing with. Right. Right. Like
if Sarah was like, oh, get over yourself because you're cat dad, for the record, I don't like
cats. And if the neighbor dog ate my cat, if I had a cat and the neighbor dog ate it,
I'd be like, oh no. Oh no. Oh, Mr. Whiskers. Oh. I'd be like, okay, whatever. But for her,
somebody else might be traumatizing. Might be traumatizing. Right. Right. Like I grew.
So like example, like there are people I know when they lose pets, they're like, it was,
it's a very hard thing for them. Me, I grew up on with lots of animals. We bred dogs.
We had like 15 of them. We had chickens, we had horses, all this stuff, like animals just,
they just died and we'd be like, okay, great. And we'd go bury them and then we'd move on.
Yeah. And so, but I know for other people, it's a very big deal. Yeah. So I had a dog
named Willow, a great dog. It was my first dog. And when she died, we had to put her
down. I cried hard, hard, like big, soppy, wet, snotty tears. Like it was big old tears.
And I even think about those, that moment and I still, I get teary eyed because I was
like, but you know, the, one of the things that I have, I don't, I don't know if you
feel bad, like one of the hard things about being guys is sometimes people give guys a
hard times about crying. I never feel bad about crying about something that I miss because
it means it mattered. Yeah. I know I'm never going to feel, feel bad about that. And by
the way, you shouldn't feel bad about crying in general, but I am talking about personal
experience here. I used to feel bad, but I don't feel bad about it anymore because it
allowed it. Like I was like, it mattered. It mattered to me. Well, I think that right
there is the heart posture that every single person who is a minister of the gospel, IE,
which is everybody, because we were all commissioned. So it's not just those of us who carry the
title of pastors. We're supposed to be coming to this topic of healing with the heart of
humility. Yeah. Because Jesus showed us the way and we know in Philippians that he came,
he left his throne on high. He took on the humble position as a slave, chose to be born
as an infant, born in the epitome of poverty. And Jesus spends his entire ministry, those
three years of going directly to those that the world deemed not really a big issue. Who
cares that the lepers are out there? Who cares that the widows and orphans are out there?
Who cares that the Sumerian woman has to go get her water anew so she can avoid all of
the yatches in her community? And Jesus always had this position of humility of saying, your
pain matters. No matter what your pain looks like, no matter the size, you can't quantify
pain. You cannot put pain into a box. There's a reason why we are having a mental health
crisis in the nation right now is because we're finding out that emotional pain can
have so much more significant damage than physical pain can. And I can tell you firsthand
guys, as a kid that has a pretty significant trauma background, I will tell you that the
moments of physical abuse cannot compare to the moments of emotional abuse that was done
to me. I can look at the scars on my body and go, I remember that moment and I can shrug
it off, but it's the things that were spoken over me, the manipulation and all of the things
that were done to me in those years of abuse that I'm still reeling from. My body's healed.
Yeah. There is, you know, when you physically get hurt, cut your arm, break a limb, you
know, any of those things that happen. Boys do a lot of that growing up because we're
always testing the boundaries. You end up with scars, you know, and often as you grow
up, you're like, oh yeah, this is when I learned not to mess with my chainsaw, you know? But
the hard thing with emotional and spiritual trauma is that the scars usually show up in
trust and how you feel about people and relationships. And those are, you can't see them, but it
is real. And so like in this topic of healing, when we say talk about like the church has
to be healing, I think you nailed it right on the head is that you have to, if we were
going to talk about engaging people, which we're called to do, right? We are called to
engage people in healing ministry, not just body, but soul, mind, spirit, right? Yeah.
And then we have to first realize that your pain matters. Yes. Right. You nail that completely
on the head is that the pain matters. It may not matter to me, but it does matter to me
because it matters to you. Right? And you have to, as believers, we have to accept the
risk that entering that when we say, yes, we're going to enter into people's lives to
like allow healing to take place or help facilitate healing. Like we have to accept that that's
actually probably not a safe place for us. And that's a risky place. And we have to rely
on Jesus. So good. Right? So like we've talked about this some, I think we're going to do
a podcast episode just on this later on down the road. But one of, I think the most harmful
things for the church is, is that we've said, oh, we just want to create a safe place. And
I was like, so you want to be void of risk? Yeah. That's so counter gospel. Yeah. The
gospel calls us to enter into those places to bring who Jesus is to those places, to
bring healing, to bring redemption. And in order to do that, we have to accept the mess
that comes with it. And that doesn't, and accepting the mess doesn't mean, doesn't mean
just being like, okay, I'm going to just let that mess be and it'll work itself out. Right?
It doesn't mean that. Like if you accept something where it's at, it means you want to accept
to where it's at and then move forward, but move forward. Yeah. And there's, and that
looks different for everybody. I'm sorry. I'm going to use a analogy really quick and just
understand that don't equate this with your pain. This is just an idea of accepting risk.
When I bring a puppy into my house, I'm aware that he's going to chew on things. He's probably
going to poop on the floor. He's going to pee on things that I don't want him to pee
on. You know, there's going to be a lot of things that I accept when I bring the puppy
in. Dogs are destructive. Dogs are destructive because, and they, and they grow up and they
get better, you know, and they, you know, well, sometimes they get better, but like
that's that, those are, those are things that I'm, I accept. And so when we, when we step
into people's trauma, it's not a safe place. It's going to be a messy place. And so I'm
not equating your, by the way, I'm not, I am not equating your trauma with a dog. But
like when you step into a situation, like you, it's, it is messy. Like that's whole
thing we talked about with pastoral things too. When you take people and you put them
on a stage, they're going to speak heresy at some point because it's hard to talk in
front of people. And our job as, as pastoral people is to pastor that, not to like harass
or belittle or attack that person. Right? Like we're actually called into pastor it
and we know when we do it, it's going to be messy. Sarah, you've been doing worship a
long time. When you get a new worship leader, is it, is it just smooth as butter when they
come in the first time? Well, I mean, I'll tell you guys, I, um, I did not lead worship
this most recent Sunday cause I was coming back from a conference and I knew that I needed
some time like going to a church conference. Yeah, we're supposed to be filled up, but
it's, it's also really draining. They are exhausting. It's draining for an introvert
that has had to learn to extrovert for church. And then you have to go and be around a whole
bunch of your peers and you're like, Oh yeah, right. I, I still gotta be on point right
now. And there are always a lot of sessions too. And it's, it's from seven o'clock in
the morning until nine 30 at night. And you're like, okay. Um, Jesus did take naps people.
He did take naps. Anyways. Um, I don't know about you, but whenever I see something to
ending at nine 30, I'm like hard pass. I'm out. They're like, we're done at nine 30.
I was like, PM. When you travel with your boss, you kind of make sure you're at all
the sessions. Oh man. I'm sure he listens to this episode. Um, so I, I showed up to
church and I lost track of how many people are like, you're leading worship today. Right.
And I was like, Nope. And they're like, and I was like, Oh guys, like, and that, that
kills me because we don't like different, right. Um, we don't like something that doesn't
look like what we can tolerate or what makes us comfortable. And guys have, have you guys
ever watched a gory medical scene or maybe a shoot them up where someone's dying and
like things are squirting out of a body and, or a medical show and they're frantically
doing a whippestitch. So anytime we're dealing with humans and anytime we're dealing with
pain or trauma, it's messy. It's gory. It's either blood or guts. It's verbal people shooting
things from their mouth. It is physical. It could come out in addictions and things like
that. And so I guess I, I wonder when people question about it, our is the gift of healing
for today and for now. And when the cessationists want to get up and they want to say, Nope,
that was just for a time. I'm wondering when they forgot that Jesus was saying it's the
sick that need a doctor. And he was telling everyone, it didn't matter if it was a child,
a woman with a bleeding disorder. It didn't matter. Jesus was saying your pain matters.
I can handle your mess. Even if people are watching, I can take care of it. So why are
we afraid to step in? I guess I'm wondering like, why are we afraid to step in? I mean,
I mean, one of the, one of the main reasons like I struggled a long time ago is, is I
was like, well, what if it doesn't work? Right? Well, it's not your responsibility. Well,
I know, but this, this is, this was my, this was my issue coming in. I was like, well,
what if it doesn't work? I was like, now, first of all, just, just big head on Ben,
let me just explain this really quick. Okay. Big head on Ben. Like what if it doesn't work
and people don't trust God because of me? Now that's a valid concern to have in your
heart, but let's be honest. If people don't trust the creator of the universe because
of Ben Edwards, they've got some serious issues, right? Uh, because one, I, I'm going to break
somebody's heart. I'm not God. No, right? You know, and, yeah, he finally is going to
step off that fake throne of his. Oh man. It feels good to get that off my chest. But
cancel that intervention. But on the flip side of that, we are called to represent God.
And so I do think like there is a certain thing about like being aware, like we talked
about being in a mess. We know it's going to get messy to fix things. It typically does
get messy. And especially when you're a beginner, right? I'm coming, we're going to come back
to something that's not as, as necessarily charged as, as healing ministry where people
are conflicted about it. But when you let's, as you are bringing somebody in new to worship,
it's messy if they've never done it before. Yeah. So there's so many different analogies
we could use to paint this picture, right? Yeah. Um, so just, here's a, just a couple
from my life, one, which is recent, which is today, um, we started the process of ripping
our deck out on our house. Now Ben's been to my house. My deck like need to get ripped
out like since I moved in, like I, we, I stepped through it the other day and I was like, oh
sweet, here we go. So, but now the front of my house looks worse than I did. Right? Cause
the deck is like half out. Right. But it will look better at some point. Yeah. But the,
you have to, sometimes you have to, to take care of the brokenness in your life, you have
to let Christ rip it out. Right. And, um, and that's painful. Right. Cause it changes
the image. Um, yeah. The other, the other in my life is I come from a family where I
have five adopted siblings. And I've had people who've talked to me about like, well, well,
if we're thinking about adoption, what should we consider? I was like, well, you should
just know that you're entering into trauma. Cause like, if you are taking a kid who is
not biologically yours into your home, there is some story there of why that had to happen.
Yeah. Right. Um, and that very, that story can vary, but like, if you're like, oh, well,
I'm thinking of adopting and you're like, you should look into like, okay, how do I
deal with people who have had significant trauma? Right. Yeah. But as a church we're
called like, we are called to bring those people in. Uh, there's a pastor friend of
mine, um, every Sunday he walks around the church around 7 a.m. He picks up beer bottles,
cigarettes, stuff like that. And it's brings him such great joy. And the reason being is
he's like, it shows that broken people feel welcome here. Right. And there's, there's
a few church members at that church. And this was, this was a few years back, but they were
the, they were like, man, we just really don't like that. And he's like, well, you know what?
Like it shows that broken people feel welcomed here. And like, and that's what you want.
Yeah. Like you, you want a place where broken people feel like they can come for healing
or they can come for restoration. You said earlier, you're talking about like we can't,
the church can't necessarily, it can't be a safe place because it's, we'd be devoid
of risk. Like we try to keep it as safe as possible, right? But it's supposed to be a
transformative place. Right. Yeah. Um, I think we should preface that. I think it's good
that churches have checks and balances and do things like, Hey, let's background check
the people who are going to work with students. Yeah. And that's, that involved in like being
as safe as possible. But when you work with broken people, you're going to have broken
people. Yeah. Um, including us. I wouldn't even say like save as possible. I would say
like you want to manage your risk. Sure. Yeah. You're managing your risk. That is, that is
better than safe as possible because safe as possible. We'd all be in bubbles. Yeah.
Right. Uh, yeah. I mean, apparently that really tickled Sarah. She, she likes the idea of
being in a bubble. Um, so the, uh, so talking to the, uh, let's, let's, let's, let's, uh,
steer this a little bit and talk about just healing as a, as an idea to the non-Pentecostal
and Pentecostal. Uh, first thing is coming from a Southern Baptist background, I'm going
to talk to the non-Pentecostal, right? Um, God wants you to be a conduit of his grace
into people's life, conduit of his love into people's life, conduit of his kingdom coming
to earth. How that looks is going to be between you and God, but I guarantee you, it involves
bringing healing in some capacity to people around you. Um, it is not you doing it is
always the power of Christ doing it through you. Yeah. But at the same time, you have
to go, you have to step out. Uh, you step with the authority of God, but you're stepping
and make sure you're stepping with the authority of God, but you're gonna, you're gonna have
to go. And so the best place to start is to actually, when people need it or when they
say they have a need, stop and pray for them and remind them how much God loves them. Because
regardless of whether they are, I'm going to say quote unquote healed or not, the greatest
healing is the fact that we know that God is dwelling with us wherever we are, that we're
not alone. And he's going to stay and sit with us in our brokenness, in our emotion,
emotional issues, our trauma. He's going, he says, I'm going to be here. I'm going to plant
my butt right next to your chair next to you. Yeah. And then we're going to go through this
together or God's going to be doing something demonstrative in their life and they're going
to have something dramatic happen because God is bringing something, um, into their
life. That's going to be dramatic healing. I mean, I've had that happen in my life and
then I've not seen it happen in somebody else's life, but I've seen the exact healing in their
eyes. Does that make sense? Like I see, I see God doing something in their life to the
Pentecostal. I'm going to kick that over to my, my good friend, pastor Sarah.
So I guess for the Pentecostal is I'm, oh, this is, so I'm going to, I'm going to tread
lightly because I'm still walking in my own wounding of, of going to revivals or a church
meeting, special speaker and, and having healing services and the anointing of oil. And, um,
sadly I have seen some abuse of that. So I want to tread lightly because I believe in
the Pentecostal faith or especially just with the holiness movement, we believe in the power
of the Holy spirit. And when, and when Jesus says I, all authority from heaven and on earth
has been given to me to give to you to go do this as Pentecostals go, all right, we're
supposed to go do this. Let's do it. And, and we can be a little flashy at times with
it. And, um, I'm still trying to figure that out because I think it's a personal conviction
when it comes to an expression. And I, I believe that it should be a personal conviction in
how we are using the gifts of healing. If we're using the gifts of healing to emotionally
manipulate the room, that's a big problem. If we're using the gifts of healing to over
dramatize the spirit, that's a problem. So for me, like, as long as we're holding a heart
of humility in this and, and, and we're making it about the healer and not about us getting
to do it, but we're, we're just keeping our eyes on Jesus. I believe that those expressions
can be done in beautiful ways that look crazy at times that that might have someone laying
on the floor or might have someone running the aisles or might have someone speaking
in tongues because we can't, again, who are we? We are not creator. So how can we have
an opinion or a say of how the creator restores things back?
Well, when you think about like, if, if I, I'm just using a physical one, if I was in
a wheelchair and God healed my legs, I should be visibly excited, right? I should be visibly
excited. I will, I will do backflips, you know, maybe, actually I won't because I, I
don't know if I can do a backflip ever, but it's harder for tall people. That's, that's
the issue. Um, but, and just, but I should also, when that, that pain that I have from
church trauma doesn't get triggered, I should also do a backflip for that too.
Yeah. I think sometimes when healing ministries come in, they, they will often, I want to
be careful with this, but sometimes they'll rip open old wounds that have already been
healed. Right? Yeah. Like if I, I'm going to pick on you a little bit, Ben. Do it. Okay.
If I walked over and took your glasses and then said, Oh man, you're blind. And then
like put glasses back on and be like, Oh, you're healed. I did nothing. Yeah. Right.
All I did was give them something that was already healed in his life or something that
already helped him in his life. Right. Right. Um, and so, but I've seen that happen too
in churches where, where people have come in and be like, Oh, I'm going to, we're going
to do healing revival stuff. And then really they're, they kind of just rip open old wounds
that people have already been healed. Yeah. Hey, anyone here that's been, who has child
abuse, anyone here who's been sexually molested. And then all of a sudden it's like, but you're
in a wait, wait. Right. Like, like I have, like I have my own issues from my, my childhood,
right. And for the most part, those have been issues that have been dealt with. Like conversations
have been had, healing has taken place. And, but I still have people in my life who like
occasionally try to push and be like, well, didn't you feel this? And it's like, yeah,
but that's done and over with. Like that's been healed. Right. There's been forgiveness
restoration that's taking place in that area. And so I think my encouragement here is just
when we do enter into those places of healing, we also want to learn to recognize the areas
that have been healed. That's so good. Like, and it's, and it's not that the healing and
sometimes the healing is instant, like instantaneous. Like I have, I have family members who like
heavily addicted to substances, found Jesus instantly healed, never craved them again.
Right. I also have family members who are the exact opposite. Yeah. Came to know Jesus
and they still wrestle with the, okay, I've given this up, but I still have this temptation
all the time for this, for whatever that is. I don't want to throw them under the bus directly.
So I'm being vague. Yeah. Well, when we, when we discussed having this, uh, mini series,
we started with three episodes, which I almost feel like if you were like, yeah, let's talk
about the stuff, but we preface them with three episodes talking about getting yourself
right before you step into the spiritual gifts. Yeah. Right. Love God, love other people,
hear the voice of God, demonstrate the fruit of the spirit. Yeah. Right. Uh, because if
you're not a person of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, general
self-cultivation, these aren't fruits that are abundant or at least pursued in your life.
You shouldn't be pursuing these other things. Yeah. Like God will use them in spite of you
because even like, I want to talk about these ones where they, where they rip open old wounds,
right? Let's, let's just talk about the thing where it's not great. Like some bad things
have happened. Even in the midst of that, God does use that to work in people's life.
Yeah. And he works in spite of us. And so like, it's like, how do we do it? Not necessarily
like, and I'm not, I'm not, I don't want to pick on anybody in particular, but it's
like even in the worst sermons, God will translate that and still reach people because somebody
is trying to faithfully get up and do something. Yeah. Right. But at the same time, our goal
shouldn't be to have God work in spite of us. Yeah. Yeah. But rather work with us. Yeah.
We shouldn't forget the stories that come with our wounds. 100%. Like, like we need
to know our story, where we come from. We've, we've talked about that quite extensively
here on this podcast. So we shouldn't forget those, but we shouldn't also, we also don't
need to just dwell in that. Correct. Right. Like there comes a point where there is healing
that's taking place and healing that continues to take place and we need to live into that.
I think this is just such, it's such a broad topic. Like I think as a listener right now,
you guys probably had a couple of times where like, Ooh, they're going to go this way. And
then all of a sudden we, you know, like quickly corrected and went left or we went right.
Cause I'm even, even feeling it in my spirit. There's been so many things that we're touching
on. But before I, before I leave here today, I think my soul's being convicted in the fact
that what are we doing when we have been recipients of healing and we've experienced the supernatural
power of, of him being Jehovah Ratha. How are we then being ministers of that healing to
others? Because it says that if we have been given freely, freely, then we give. And we've,
we brushed on it a little bit, you know, it has to do with comparison of how we view other
people's pain. It has to do with our own personal viewpoints of, of what we've experienced and
what healing ministry looks like. But I'm wondering, and then we talked about fear,
like being afraid of like dealing with the mess and like, but if we have been recipients
of this, why are we not freely giving it? And I can only speak from my personal experience
that I remember at the age of 12, it was so significant. My parents had separated. We're
living in our, our second new apartment, you know, we're, we're fine. We're, we're on food
stamps, but Hey, like we have our own place now. And I remember listening to a worship
song and immediately in my heart was grieved at the age of 12 that I would never have children.
Why would I think that at the age of 12, I'm looking at my 12 year old now and she's like,
do not ask me to babysit. Do not ask me to do anything. Like she is like, don't ask me
to cook. Like my 12 year old right now is like, no. So why, why I would have that feeling.
And I remember the story of Hannah in the Bible. So we talk about a woman that experienced
healing. She cried out to God. The prophet Eli told her that if you go and back to your
husband, you will have a child. And she had a child. And so at 12 years old, I made a
covenant with God. I say, God, I promise you that if you, if you will not make me barren,
if you give me a child, I will give that child back to you. 12 years old. Okay. Fast forward
to being 21 years old. I'm married, unequally yoked, far from God, drugs, drinking, like
I'm pissed. I'm pissed at my trauma. And I'm, I'm going to, I'm giving God the finger.
He's not going to get me. And I'm sitting there at 21 and I'm going, well crap, you
know, like I want to have a baby. But now Richard and I are dealing with what was told
to me at the age of 15. At the age of 15, I was told I would probably never have children
that there would have to be a whole bunch of medical interventions. I actually had significant
surgery done at the age of 15 to try to help correct it. And the doctor came back and said,
we don't, good luck when that time comes, good luck. So 21, Richard and I are going,
okay, you know, do we want to have a family? You know, are we going to try this out? And,
and miraculously guys, when the doctor said that I should not have been able to get pregnant,
lo and behold, Richard and I are pregnant. I'm not serving God still far away. You know,
Richard's, you know, doing his own thing, you know, like, we're just not like, we're
not doing anything. And I am laying on a couch in Phoenix, Arizona on an October morning,
Sunday morning. And I audibly hear the voice of God say, Sarah, you made a covenant with
me. Guys, I was pregnant with my first child and it was a boy. And God said, you made a
covenant with me. If I gave you him, you would give him back to me. I was literally walking
out healing that somehow in my 12 year old soul, God had put into my heart, Sarah, make
this covenant with me. Let me show you won't I do it. That when I was told at 15, you're
not going to have children, I was like, I just didn't worry about it. Right. And then
I get married and it's, you know, the husband wants to start a family and the doctors are
going well, and boom, I'm pregnant. So I worry because that is, I think that's a, for those
that don't know, for the listeners that don't know, I have five children all conceived naturally.
Three of whom were conceived on contraception. So let me tell you, it's a miracle. I'm literally
living out a miracle being a mother. Why is that stopping me from going and praying for
that person that is struggling across the street? It's been freely given to me. And
what happens is I get stuck in me. I make it about me. And that typically is what stops
me from being the vessel that Jesus was saying all authority from heaven and earth has been
given to me to give to you to go do this, do it. And I, I just came back from this conference
and my husband and I are sitting outside of the, the TSA line in the Portland airport.
And this woman just comes and plops right down next to us. And Richard and I are kind
of frantically trying to deal with ourselves and get ready to go home to the kids. And,
and we're both tired and exhausted. And this woman just starts talking to us. And she starts
opening up about how this is the first time she's flown in 15 years. And she went to go
be with some family members for a specific thing. And she was going home and she just
had like a lot of questions in her soul and just, just felt a lot of unrest. And I'm listening
to her and I hear God say, go over there and pray for her. And I was like, hot, no. And
so I just keep talking to her and I'm like, Richard, grab your bags. We're going to go.
Like, and all of a sudden I heard him say, Sarah, bless my daughter. So I, I take the
seat that's separating the two of us and I sit right to her next to her and her eyes
get big. And I'm like, my name's Sarah, by the way, we've been chatting and she shares
her name with me. And I was like, I need to pray for you. Is that okay? And she goes,
uh-huh. So I, I, I, that's all she, uh-huh. And I put my hand on her leg and I just say
this simple blessing that God had asked me to say over her. I finished and her eyes are
big and I just squeezed her and I said, thank you. I literally felt something leave my body.
Like I was tingling from the top of my head down to my toes. I was shaking my hands out
as I walked away from her. And when I walked away from her, she erupted in this loud laughter
of joy and there was this man sitting next to her and they were just shaking their heads.
Like what just happened? And I'm walking away going, what just happened? And I literally
couldn't talk after that. Something left my body freely. It has been given to you freely
give to others. I wish that I could live in that Holy spirit, bold moment all the time,
but I was coming fresh on the heels of getting real with my depravity. The things that aren't
yet healed in my soul. I, those wounds that came ripped out when I was at this conference
and I was being reminded how Jesus met me in the midst of that. So how could I not give
that to her? Just bless her. That's all he was asking.
It is really difficult, but there's always miraculous things that happen when God is
just doing, he's, it's always the simple things that he utters and that it makes profound
impacts. I think I've shared this story with you guys before when I was coming, I was also
coming back from a conference. So just definitely, I got heels when people don't come back from
conferences too. It's not just conference, you know, but I was coming back from a conference
and I was, I was in the Portland airport going down, going down, you know, you have to go
down to where the horizon flights are. Right. And I was walking past Starbucks and I heard
God say, get a $5 gift card. I'm like, can I get coffee too? And, and so I got, I got
coffee and I got a $5 gift card and I was like, okay, why have I got another card? He's
like, it's for the person sitting next to you. Okay. So I'm like in my head, I'm like,
how do I give somebody a $5 gift card and tell them that God told me to give them the
gift card without being super weird. Right. And so, uh, I sat down and this kid, he's
like 19 comes and sits next to me and a really nice kid. Um, and, and I was like, Hey, I
got this for you. He's like, he's like, he's like, Oh, and I was like, yeah, I felt, I
always feel a little bit bad that people have to sit next to me cause I'm quite large in
these little twin prop airplanes, you know? And, uh, and I was like, and also as I was
walking past, God told me to get you a $5 gift card and he goes, Oh, and he, so, so
super nice kid. And then he starts asking me about like where I've been. I told him
about like where I had a conference I'd been to and he's like, he's like, Oh yeah. He's
like, he's like, well, I, one time I was, uh, I was skiing and I got into an accident
and I got knocked out and I woke up in the hospital and I was like, am I dead? And a
voice said, no, you're not. I'm here with you. And there wasn't anybody in the room.
I was like, Oh, so you've met God before. Right now. Remember Benjamin has zero tax.
Yeah. I was just, I know exactly how you said that. So I just laughed. And he goes, he goes,
well maybe. And he's like, he's like, I, you know, I always, I, I grew up, uh, when my
mom is Catholic and I grew up in the church and the Catholic church and, and I've read
the Bible some and, uh, he has like, God seems like a cool guy, but I've just never had like
an encounter. And, uh, and so I was talking to him about some different things and praying
for some different things. And, uh, and I'd mentioned something about praying for people
when they have like screws or things in their ankles and like, uh, how people have seen
them like dissolve in the, and like, they just don't show up on x-rays anymore. And,
uh, he goes, well I have screws in my ankle. You pray for me. And I'm like, Oh man, I don't
know. Like I was like that. And so, but I didn't say that out loud. I said, sure. And,
uh, and so I, I just, I prayed for him and I started to pray for him. I said, Hey, just,
I want to let you know, uh, before we pray for you, I want to talk, tell you how much
God loves you and whether or not like this happens in your life today, that's going to
be true no matter what. So I started praying for him as I just let me know if you, if anything,
you start feeling anything. And, and, uh, so I prayed for him and, and I said, I was
like, anything. He's like, no, I'm just like, all right, I'm just going to pray. You know,
that just God would fill you with his love. And you know, and started praying like a very,
very long prayer. And he goes, well, are you ready for me? I'm ready to let you down Saturday.
And he goes, which man asked God like God who were saying uh, and everything just secrets
to you. And he goes, look, even like, even as he said to", and I mean, I'm saying I'm
not saying have you have to know a prayer because it was heartfelt. Right. And then
he goes, whoa. I was like, what's going on? He's like, my entire legs, just went numb
and then his legs started shaking. Now, Southern Baptist shock, right? His legs started shaking
to this point. Inwardly, I'm like, ah! Right? Because I'm like, I don't know what's going on.
And, but I'm like, Holy Spirit or seizure. Yeah. So I said, well, the Holy Spirit, you know,
he manifests himself in people different ways. I said very calmly, but internally I was screaming.
And I was like, if this kid, like, because we, I've been in a conference and people had like,
you know, they got hit and they were down for like 20 minutes. And I was like, people are going to
come by and be like, what did you do? You know? And I was like, oh no. But he, he says, he's like,
just talking. He's like, he's like, I just, I feel connected, you know, to God. So like I was
prayed for him and then he has to make a ton of questions about the Bible. And so the flight from
Portland to Seattle is not long, right? It's not a long flight. 31 minutes. And so we came in and
I had to go a different place when I got into Seattle and he had a place he had to go to with
connections. And so we're getting off the plane and like, he's just asking me different things.
I gave him some, some ideas about where to find a Bible that's easy to read,
where to start in the Bible if he hasn't read it before, why it's really important to get like
some contextual analysis on the Bible because it's 3000 years old. You got to understand what is
being written. And then I told him to start praying, start writing down what he's praying
and listening for God to speak to him. Right. And compare it to the stuff that he's reading.
Right. And so I left and then like, I'm standing there like getting my luggage and his parent,
his parents were traveling with him by the way. And, and he's like, I'm going to tell him,
I'm going to tell them everything. And I want to talk to them about God. And you know,
he's like real excited. Right. And so I'm standing there, like they have a little twin luggage things
that they bring out. Right. And so I'm standing there waiting for my little thing to that I carried
on to go. And he runs up and he hugs me and he's like, okay, I got to go. And he runs away. And so
I gave him my phone number and two days later I got a text. Like I was like random encounter,
half hour, you know, whatever. I get a text. He says, I don't know who you are or what you did.
All I know is my life isn't the same and thank you for it.
It was a terrifying moment for me. And that's not the only one I have. I have lots of stories that
I could share. Yeah. And by the way, this is why having real relationship, real conversation
matters because you find out God's been doing crazy things in everybody's life. Right. Yeah.
I, I, uh, I think, thank you so much for the story because you just brought me into a piece
of your life. I didn't understand before. Right. Um, I, I understand you more now than I ever had
before, but it's messy and it's hard. And I guarantee you, you're going to have that internal
scream like I had. Yes. Yeah. You are going to, uh, I will, um, I, it's, I had a girlfriend, um,
message me recently. Uh, she had mentioned that she needed prayer and there were people there. So
I was like, everyone get on. We're praying for her. And it was at an inconvenient time.
We were supposed to get ready to be going out to lead worship, to start church on time. And this
person had said, I need prayer. They weren't on the worship team going out. And I was like, well,
the worship team is here. We're, we're, uh, I can't think of the word that we're bears of,
of this covenant with God. Like this is what we do. So I don't care if we're starting church late.
And I was just, you know, going to just do the Lord pray, you know, heal her Jehovah
Rafa to your will, yada yada. And I heard God say, cause my hands were on her shoulders and
everyone else's hands were on her shoulders. And I heard God say, Sarah, this is where I need you
to put her hand. I just knew that she was having health issues. I put my hand on the small of her
back and I immediately felt heat resonating from my hand. And, and I started tingling from the top
of my head down. We prayed, we left. I got a text message from her. Um, do you guys, do you guys
mind if I read it? Because she's speaking to, to the, the gift of, of healing yesterday,
where you touched my back in the exact spot of my pain and it felt hot to me. And when you touched
it, it was cooling. I had sharp pains in the front of my belly, lower back. And then she said,
I want to remind you, wow, you are the healing healer three times. You have prayed for me
and God granted healing. We need people in our life to remind us of that. I have prayed for
countless people. And like Ben is saying, Ben, you were given a gift that a lot of us don't get. You
got to see the fruit of the healing. There are so many times that as we are being asked to be
partners, co-heirs, co-labors of the kingdom of light, that we don't get to see the fruit of acting
out this freely giving out what we know has been given to us, but rarely do we get to see,
did the healing actually happen? And that's where that prayer of faith has to take place.
We have to believe that God has already healed it by his stripes. We are healed. It doesn't say
by his stripes, we are going to be healed. By his stripes, we are healed. We have to be praying from
a place of saying that healing has already happened. It's in the works and we are just aligning
with God's will, God's timeline, and we are going to ask him for it because you have not,
because you have asked not. All too often, I think one of the issues we run into is we just
neglect saying yes. Because you both talked about, both your stories here, it was about you saying
yes. That was a big part of it. You could have walked the other way. You could have walked out
in disobedience. And what would have happened? We don't really know, but the thing is with the
saying yes is we are responsible for saying yes and living into how Christ has called us to live.
The outcome of that is not our responsibility. Because Ben, you were talking about earlier how
oh, but playing that what if in your head. What if it doesn't work? What if I lay hands on this
person and nothing happens? What if I pray for them and no change? What if I give them the gift
card and it's a really awkward 35 minute flight? And sometimes you don't see the fruit of that.
Right. Sometimes you're called into something and you don't see the fruit of it. I remember one time
I was standing in line at Starbucks and I just got paid. I had a couple hundred bucks in my wallet
and the Lord was like, hey, I want you to take a hundred bucks and buy the drinks for the people
behind you. And I was like, come again? I want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly.
Listen, listen, I will do whatever you ask me, but I want to make sure this is God speaking and not
the devil trying to get rid of my paycheck. I was like, come again. All right. And so,
but long story short, gave the hundred bucks and just told the barista, I was like, we want to pay
for all the drinks behind me. And anybody who knows me knows that I don't have a ton of money.
I don't dress like I have a ton of money. Like anybody watching this, they're like,
I don't have a ton of money. I don't dress like I have a ton of money. Like anybody watching the
video can tell that. But, but what it was is it was the barista behind the counter needed an
encounter with Jesus. And then, so I came back a few days later and she bought my drink and she's
like, I have no idea why you would do that. And so then I just got to share Jesus with her.
I just got to share the calling that God's put on my heart and my life. And it opened up this
conversation for something that she needed to hear. All right. It wasn't, it wasn't that hundred
bucks wasn't for the people behind me. Like maybe there's blessing that came out of that for somebody,
right? But it was for the person who's making the drinks who needed to hear about Jesus in that
moment. Like we have this calling in our lives to be faithful and obedient to what Christ has put in
front of us. Sometimes that's going to make us look like fools. And that's okay because we don't
follow, we don't follow the ways of this world. We follow Christ. Right. And, and so we need to lean
into that, be willing to say yes. And even if it, sometimes you'll find out that healing works
and you can see the fruit of it. Sometimes you won't. Right. And, but still whether you do or
do not see the fruit of that, you need to lean into that. Lean into that obedience of following
Christ and saying yes. A less dramatic story, but like, I just think it's going to really help maybe
encapsulate, like, cause some things are really dramatic. Something like, well, obviously I don't
want to compare gifts of God. Right. There's one spirit of many gifts. Yes. That's Paul said. And
so I've told this story on the podcast before I was with my niece and we went to this restaurant.
We had a bunch of work there and then I paid for the meal and she saw me right in the tip. Now,
one of the things that people may or may not know about me is that I like to tip generously because
I believe that God has been extremely generous with me. Yeah. And so I want that to show up in
the way that I treat other people. Yeah. And so she looked at my tip and she said, but our waitress
was terrible because you know, she was eight. So that's what eight year olds say. And the service
was not great. I will agree with you. And she says, so why did you give so much money uncle Ben? I
said, well, Jesus has been incredibly generous with me, especially when I didn't deserve it.
And so when I'm generous with people, especially when they don't deserve it,
it reminds me of who I serve. Yep. Two days later, she was doing something and she went to go tip
and she gave some extra money. She says, see, I remember Jesus, you know, and it was, it was
great. I was like, I was like, good job kid. You know? I was like, but like she's brought up that
story a number of times. Like whenever we go to tip, she's, she's like, she's like, oh, uncle Ben,
don't forget to tip big, you know? So it's just, it's just, you know, given the opportunity to
do something in somebody's life because it's been done for us to your point, we've freely received
freely give. Right. Well, and I hope that people, when, when you guys are listening to this and
you're, you're getting, you know, real life stories of times that we were rustling with our flesh,
you know, that the spirit of God was alive and is alive and was speaking to us in those moments and
saying, go be my hands and feet. And we were going, uh, come again. No, uh, who, you know,
new phone. I hope that people are realizing that again, I love just the grace of God and living
this sanctified life, this deeper life, this, this awareness that everything that, that Jesus
was coming to tell us that the kingdom of heaven was near, he brought heaven to earth because of
Jesus's life and walking and living out and showing us what to do. He brought the Holy spirit to us
as a deposit to show us that the kingdom of heaven is here and that we're going to wrestle until,
until he comes back again, we're going to wrestle with our flesh. But hopefully as we testify,
because really that's what we're doing right now is yes, we're talking about it and we're
sharing stories and we're being honest about, you know, living this life, but we're really
testifying of the times that we were saying, we are not enough. God, did you get the right person?
I'm sitting in Portland airport. No, thank you. And instead God's going, yes, I'm choosing you
through my spirit and you won't be alone. You're not going to have to think about what to say to
that person when you're on that 31 minute flight. You're, you're not going to have to think of what
to say to that barista the next time you're just going to be like, I just love Jesus and Jesus told
me to do it. And I, we overcomplicate these gifts. We overcomplicate them. Yeah.
So I want to, I want to try to bring this, bring this in for landing. Biblically,
you have to do some real big gymnastics to not see healing as something that God does in the present
day through his people. Right. Um, that doesn't mean that every person you see who proclaims
healing is doing the work of God. Right. So one of the things we've talked repeatedly about is you
got to know the word of God so that when you encounter the spirit of God, it connects with
the word of God that you know. Right. Yeah. Um, but in the context of spiritual gifts, we,
it's so important that we have this fundamental truth of loving God and that translates to loving
other people that we learn to tap into the voice of God, be directed by his word, because what did
all of our stories have in common? God spoke and we responded. Right. Now, whether he speaks to you
through prompts, through audible word, through text messages that you get from your wife that are like,
Oh, yep, that's definitely something I needed to do. Right. Um, Lindsay was just on here, man. Come
on. Um, and then be demonstrating the fruit of the spirit. It becomes paramount for us. Like if
you're going to, but to do these things and then, but actively listen to God and actually walk them
out. That's prophetic word. That is hospitality. That is preaching the word. That's worship. It's
it's healing ministry. It's speaking in tongues. All of these things that we do that are spiritual
gifts, their spiritual anointings, if you will, they're meant to be done from a person who settled
in following God with everything that they got. And if you don't have that settled, you really
need to get that settled before you start moving. Yes. Right. Like God, God can do a lot more through
people who are yielded to his will than people who are just going to do stuff. And being settled in
that doesn't mean having it down perfectly. Correct. Because when you set and walk into it,
it's still going to be messy. Yeah. And one of the things that, that I'm always just careful of is a
lot of times I've, I've met people who are like, here's the set ways of how you deal with people
who are dealing with trauma or pain. And I'm like, the problem is, is it's so individualized to that
person that you can't, you can't say here's the set way of how you deal with it. You can't say
these are some trends that we see that might be helpful. Here are some suggestions. Yeah. Right.
Right. But I've had people with, with some of the trauma and pain in my life who have stepped in
and been like, Oh, well, you know, if you do this, this, this, or this, and I was like, that was
actually, that just made it worse. Yeah. Like, and so, but when we're walking out, walking this out
with Jesus, right, when we are, when we as believers are taking this to the world and we're settled in
who he is, what that simply means is that we're striving to be more like him every day. We're
striving to follow him every day. And as we do that, the Lord's going to put these opportunities
in our paths. Right. Right. Yes. I mean, it's, he tells us that all throughout the Bible. Yeah.
Well, we want to thank you once again for being here with us. We love it.
I don't know if you know how much we love it, but we love it.
And so we will be, we will be back with our next mini series soon. It'll be in the book of James.
That'll be fun. And I think, I think we've convinced your pastor to come on too.
You better get him soon because he leaves on like the 14th of May. Yeah. I have, I have,
you're one of the things I'm leaving this in here so he can hear this when he gets prepped for this
episode, like coming in. He does not text me back. So you call him back. He's not going to text me
back. He does not text me back. So you call. Okay. I'll call. And you text. And then you can be like,
Kate, if you don't answer my texts, I'm going to FaceTime you, or I'm going to show up.
Oh, man. So good. He's such an introvert. Like going to a conference with him and seeing the
two of us, like I'm introverted. And I was like, yeah, I have people skills at least. Yeah.
Like you're introverted and then there's Kate. So good. All right. We're throwing Kate under the
bus. We will see you guys next week. And that's a wrap for today's episode of Love and Context.
We hope you enjoyed this engaging conversation and gained valuable insights into the powerful
message of love within the Bible. We'd love to hear from you and continue the conversation.
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