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Season two of Love in Context podcast welcomes you. Get ready for engaging unscripted conversations

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with your hosts, Ben and Spencer. Our mission remains unchanged to explore the Bible through

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the powerful lens of love. In this new season, we'll embark on a journey together, unearthing

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fresh insights and gaining deeper understanding of how we can love God and live out our faith

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in practical ways. So let's dive into this season of Love in Context, where love in the

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context of the Bible intersect to transform our lives.

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Guess what, everyone? We're actually here this time. We actually made a plan and all

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showed up.

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And it, I mean, we might've had to have a reminder text five minutes after 10 for somebody

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will remain anonymous. They will remain nameless. They will remain nameless. You make it make

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it sound like you've got a lot of family that is, that is vying for your attention every

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moment of every day.

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Definitely like this was the top of my priority, which is why I was here waiting in the parking

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lot for you.

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She actually had like made breakfast and no, that's not, that's not. We are a Love in Context

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podcast with Ben and Spencer. And we were once again joined by our really good friend,

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pastor Sarah from over at Sal Tonga's Alliance Church. We're so glad that she's here with

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us.

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Thank you. Thank you.

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We have you scheduled for multiple episodes over the next future. So we're very excited

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about that. And we are concluding our little mini series on the spiritual guest today.

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Yes we are.

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Yeah. It only took us eight weeks to do a six week series with two episode break in

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the middle.

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It's all right. It happens.

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Well what happened is we were recording and then everybody in the world got sick. So we

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couldn't, we couldn't schedule and get time to do it. Cause then your family was sick

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and then my family was sick and then, and so we recorded a couple of episodes and then

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we were going to do it the next time and we couldn't get schedules lining up. And so we're

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like, you know what, two filler episodes, but we had one called the kingdom of trolls,

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which was a lot of fun where we talked about how the church is kind of becoming a kingdom

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of trolls online, having comments about each other on social media.

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I really can't wait to hear that.

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Yeah, it's actually posted.

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Okay.

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You know how the best thing you can do when someone's wrong is just go to social media

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and just blast them.

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Oh yeah. That is absolutely the best.

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That is actually Spencer's advice all the time.

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See that's in Matthew 17.

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17.

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See Matthew 17 says you post on social media and then in Matthew 18 you go to them face

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to face.

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If you actually go to the book of second opinions, there's a lot of really interesting content

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regarding a lot of those things. So, so, okay. You know, I think we're probably the best

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place to start in healing is having this conversation. What does the Bible say about healing?

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Right. So let's go all the way back into Torah and take a look at like what God has done

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through that area. So healing is a lot of different things, physical, spiritual, emotional.

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In fact, we're going to touch a little bit on like what is deliverance because there

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is that is always going hand in hand with the ministry of Jesus.

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So in Torah, there's actually a number of times where we'll take, we'll take Sarah,

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for example, we're going to take Rebecca. For example, we talked about them both in

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women in ministry is that they were barren. They couldn't have children. And in the case

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of Isaac, Isaac prayed for Rebecca. God heard him and then her womb was opened. Right. Same

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thing with, with in the case of Rachel, like and Leah, God heard their cries and he opens

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the wounds. Right. All throughout the blessings and the curses that happened through Torah,

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God keeps making these statements. He says, if you, if you follow my obey my commands

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and obey my, my, my, I'm going to say wishes. That's not the word I'm looking for. My commands

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are my instructions. That's a better word than wishes. Yes. Two very different words.

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Very, very different words. I'm really glad that you have a concrete word now. Instructions

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wishes was not the one I wanted. Covenant is actually the word I was thinking of my covenant.

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I was where I was looking for. There's that theology coming out in you. Yeah. That's somebody's

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just going to cut that one being like, Ben thinks that God grants wishes. So even though

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actually what would probably happen is pastor Nick will quote me as love and out of context

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every time, every time, every time. But God says, if you, if you go and do these things

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that he's actually going to start reversing the things that happened coming out of Eden

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that you're going to have lots of children that your fields are going to produce that

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your animals are going to multiply and that you're going to expand your territory, which

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by the way, it comes back to this whole idea of be fruitful and multiply. Um, you have

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the, the idea that the ground is cursed because of man. Yeah. Right. Um, we talked about how

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Tim Mackey has the, the piece where he talks about, uh, women are going to have difficulty

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in getting pregnant. Right. This has been, it's been translated as childbearing, but

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it's actually the difficulty in getting pregnant, which is like the flip side of the curse of

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the land, right? The fruit from the list of the boom versus fruit from the land. But when

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you follow God, uh, you actually reverse that you come back to Eden, which is very much

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the whole story of the Bible through Jesus is that God is bringing us back to the garden.

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He's bringing us back to this relationship. Yeah. And, uh, then you have Elijah and Elisha

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in the Bible who, uh, Elisha and Elijah who, um, bring people back from the dead. They,

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they heal people, their, their skin conditions are healed. There's a famous story with Naaman

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where he's told to bathe in the, in the water for seven times, not because the water is

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special, but because, uh, Elisha is calling something into him. Like he's, he's revealing

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something to this man coming all the way into the New Testament. So the basic reason I want

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to mention the old Testament before we talk about Jesus is sometimes I have this, this

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idea in, in church evangelical thought that Jesus came and he was the first person to

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heal, which is not true. It was happening all throughout history, all throughout the

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Bible. Miraculous things were happening. In fact, there's some crazy things that happened

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in the old Testament. Yeah. Some borderline insane things. Well, backing up to Moses a

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little bit, there's just a little interesting connection piece for you. Uh, his encounter

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at the burning bush foreshadows the, the, um, future of what the Lord's going to do for

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his people. Uh, cause you have, uh, you have to put your hand in the coat disease, put

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it back in and it's healed. You have the miraculous signs through your staff on the ground. Here's

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a snake, pick it up. So you have the healing, the miraculous, and then leading into the

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deliverance. Right. So I want to center in because we're talking, we're going to be talking

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about where, where's the place for healing deliverance inside of the church. And so I

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want to center in on really what Jesus speaks because most of the people who are listening

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or most of the people who are interested in what we have to say are people who want to

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follow Christ. Right. Um, so I want to go to Matthew 10 where Jesus takes his 12 disciples

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and he's sending them out. Now this, this is one of two places where Jesus sends his

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disciples out. Once he sends 12 and once he's in 72, um, the bigger part that I want to,

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I want to focus in on is this part where Jesus tells him he's, you're going to go and proclaim

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this message. And as you're going, you're going to heal a sick, raise the dead, cleanse

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the leper. And because you freely received, you're going to freely give. Right. Now the

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reason I wanted to mention that is because there is a, there is a trend in the church

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where people talk about Jesus commissioned his apostles, but that's not a message for

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us to this day. And the main reason I wanted to continue reading is cause you're going

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to recognize a lot of those verses that are quoted in a lot of theology books about how

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to live the Christian life. You know, there are going to be like sheep among wolves. You're

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going to need to be as innocent as does and crafty as snakes, right? That people are going

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to hate you because of me. You're not greater than your master. If they're only meant to

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the apostles and these are all part of one discourse, which pieces are meant for them

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and which pieces are meant for us? Cause you can't just tiki-tack decide which pieces you

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want and which pieces you don't. Now, some of those cores are going to contextually be

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appropriate. Um, you're gonna have to translate those to America because we don't, um, I mean,

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there's not a lot of dust. It rains a lot here. There's not a lot of dust. So you're

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not going to shake your dust off your feet when you go somewhere, right? Right. The mud.

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You're going to shake the mud off your feet. But, uh, this call that Jesus gives us, uh,

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to go and share the gospel is first that the kingdom of heaven is here and then to bring

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the reality of the kingdom into people's lives. And we've talked about like the spiritual

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gifts, love God, love other people, know the voice of God, exhibit the fruit of the spirit

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and then walk these things out in humility. Right. So before we get into experiential

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or, uh, our stories of like what God has done through healing, I want to set this precedent.

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Jesus is very clear. We, we should be about the kingdom business, which involves putting

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broken things back together. Yes. Yes. Right. And we're talking in, with that context, when

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we're talking healing, we're talking multi, there's multiple layers to it. Correct. Right.

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Like a lot of times, a lot of times, at least the church I grew up in, when we talked healing,

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we thought of like the crazy person coming and laying hands on you and being like, be

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saved, be healed. Yeah. You can now walk straight type thing. And, um, which are, which I've

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seen that happen. And I've also had times where, where I've seen people pray over people

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for healing and it hasn't happened. Right. Right. And so, so we need to take that and

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we need to take it in stride. Agreed. And we also have to remember that not everything

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that needs to be healed is visible to the human eye. Yeah. And so a lot of times the

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healing that is being done through the power of the spirit can be instantaneous and it

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could be something that we know nothing about because it is so deeply hidden in that person's

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story or as opposed to the ones where we can see someone that no longer has cancer, but

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we cannot diminish the fact that everything that is broken is supposed to come underneath

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the authority of heaven and earth and come to full restoration. Right. That is, that

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has been God's plan since the very beginning, ever since we failed in the garden. Right.

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So would you say then, Sarah, that maybe the, the, the tendency in the Christian church

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at times is for people who are looking towards healing, that they pursue the, I'm going to

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say demonstrative things, the things that you see and they neglect the, the other portions

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because it's meant to be, it's a cohesive unit, right? Like body, soul, spirit. It's

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not one thing that is, um, it needs addressing because I know for a fact in my life that

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a broken heart hurts a lot more than a broken back. Yeah. That's good. Maybe not so much

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physically, but you carry it with you around and it, it affects my relationships and it

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affects my way I interact with my kids, you know? And, uh, if somebody says, you know,

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while the broken back is the more important thing, I was like, clearly you've never walked

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around with a broken heart or a broken spirit. I think the, I think really what the danger

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is Ben, I hear what you're saying, but it's the fact that we have a tendency as humans

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to compare pain. So we, it's not necessarily us questioning, uh, the use of, of healing

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or what does healing look like? What we're actually doing is we're comparing pain. Sure.

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And when we come and we go, well, that's just, that's just emotional pain or that's just

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mental health issues. Oh, that's just, come on. It's just a kidney stone. I've had so

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much worse than that. I had cancer. Get over yourself. Yeah. Or are you kidding me? Your

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mom yelled at you. I was beaten half of my life growing up. Like, so we have as humans,

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we come in and we want to compare our pain. And I think that is the very first thing that

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stops the spirit of God to be fully unleashed in healing. Because if we aren't aware of

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our, um, hindrances or our biases or our comparisons that when we're making with people and we

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go and we're like, I'm going to pray for you. Yeah. Spencer, really? I'm going to pray for

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you right now. Cause you're crying about your, your broken, your dead cat. You know, there's,

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there's ownership, not only in us as the ministers that are supposed to be enacting that authority

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that Jesus gives, but then there's also that person's own biases that they're bringing

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into this. Can I trust God? Can I really believe that God cares that I'm hurting over this?

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Right. Yeah. I, it's so good. I, I a hundred percent on board with you. Um, which, which

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is yeah, exactly why I was mentioning that it's like emotional things. Like they are

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disruptive. Like it is, it is difficult for me. I think I talked on the last episode,

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how I'm finding that my three year old is a lot like me, um, developmentally and that

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I have had a struggled with low EQ emotional intelligence for a really long time. My wife

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has done a good job of like bringing me up to stuff, but, uh, and my friends still are

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like, you can't say that to somebody. I was like, okay, good to know. Good to know. I

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can't say that. And so like sometimes like if something happened, I was like, oh, why

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do you care? Just brush it off. Yeah. Right. Like that's the way my brain works because

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that particular thing would just roll off of me. Right. And then, but I also know how

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much it hurts when somebody does say something and it sticks with me. Yeah. And it, like,

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it's like, it's like Teflon on a pan, man. It sticks there. Well, that just reminds us

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that the tongue has the power to burn down a forest. We're going to have a good conversation

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about that coming up in James. So just saying it's going to be good. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah,

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with one of the rules that my wife and I have in our marriage is that we're not going to

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compare our pain. Like you were just talking about this earlier. Like that's a rule that

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we have in our marriage. Like if I'm having a bad day, like she doesn't get to come in

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and say, well, I've had a deal with this today. Right. And vice versa. If she's having a bad

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day, I don't get to come in and say, well, I've had a deal with worse today. Yeah. Right.

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It's like, no, I'm going to step out of whatever I'm dealing with to be there for her. And

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then she's going to do the same for me when the time comes. And it's been one of the healthiest

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things in our marriage because as soon as you get into that comparing back and forth,

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it just wrecks your relationship with whoever you're comparing with. Right. Right. Like

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if Sarah was like, oh, get over yourself because you're cat dad, for the record, I don't like

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cats. And if the neighbor dog ate my cat, if I had a cat and the neighbor dog ate it,

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I'd be like, oh no. Oh no. Oh, Mr. Whiskers. Oh. I'd be like, okay, whatever. But for her,

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somebody else might be traumatizing. Might be traumatizing. Right. Right. Like I grew.

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So like example, like there are people I know when they lose pets, they're like, it was,

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it's a very hard thing for them. Me, I grew up on with lots of animals. We bred dogs.

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We had like 15 of them. We had chickens, we had horses, all this stuff, like animals just,

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they just died and we'd be like, okay, great. And we'd go bury them and then we'd move on.

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Yeah. And so, but I know for other people, it's a very big deal. Yeah. So I had a dog

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named Willow, a great dog. It was my first dog. And when she died, we had to put her

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down. I cried hard, hard, like big, soppy, wet, snotty tears. Like it was big old tears.

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And I even think about those, that moment and I still, I get teary eyed because I was

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like, but you know, the, one of the things that I have, I don't, I don't know if you

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feel bad, like one of the hard things about being guys is sometimes people give guys a

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hard times about crying. I never feel bad about crying about something that I miss because

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it means it mattered. Yeah. I know I'm never going to feel, feel bad about that. And by

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the way, you shouldn't feel bad about crying in general, but I am talking about personal

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experience here. I used to feel bad, but I don't feel bad about it anymore because it

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allowed it. Like I was like, it mattered. It mattered to me. Well, I think that right

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there is the heart posture that every single person who is a minister of the gospel, IE,

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which is everybody, because we were all commissioned. So it's not just those of us who carry the

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title of pastors. We're supposed to be coming to this topic of healing with the heart of

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humility. Yeah. Because Jesus showed us the way and we know in Philippians that he came,

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he left his throne on high. He took on the humble position as a slave, chose to be born

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as an infant, born in the epitome of poverty. And Jesus spends his entire ministry, those

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three years of going directly to those that the world deemed not really a big issue. Who

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cares that the lepers are out there? Who cares that the widows and orphans are out there?

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Who cares that the Sumerian woman has to go get her water anew so she can avoid all of

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the yatches in her community? And Jesus always had this position of humility of saying, your

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pain matters. No matter what your pain looks like, no matter the size, you can't quantify

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pain. You cannot put pain into a box. There's a reason why we are having a mental health

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crisis in the nation right now is because we're finding out that emotional pain can

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have so much more significant damage than physical pain can. And I can tell you firsthand

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guys, as a kid that has a pretty significant trauma background, I will tell you that the

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moments of physical abuse cannot compare to the moments of emotional abuse that was done

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to me. I can look at the scars on my body and go, I remember that moment and I can shrug

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it off, but it's the things that were spoken over me, the manipulation and all of the things

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that were done to me in those years of abuse that I'm still reeling from. My body's healed.

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Yeah. There is, you know, when you physically get hurt, cut your arm, break a limb, you

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know, any of those things that happen. Boys do a lot of that growing up because we're

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always testing the boundaries. You end up with scars, you know, and often as you grow

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up, you're like, oh yeah, this is when I learned not to mess with my chainsaw, you know? But

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the hard thing with emotional and spiritual trauma is that the scars usually show up in

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trust and how you feel about people and relationships. And those are, you can't see them, but it

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is real. And so like in this topic of healing, when we say talk about like the church has

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to be healing, I think you nailed it right on the head is that you have to, if we were

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going to talk about engaging people, which we're called to do, right? We are called to

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engage people in healing ministry, not just body, but soul, mind, spirit, right? Yeah.

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And then we have to first realize that your pain matters. Yes. Right. You nail that completely

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on the head is that the pain matters. It may not matter to me, but it does matter to me

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because it matters to you. Right? And you have to, as believers, we have to accept the

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risk that entering that when we say, yes, we're going to enter into people's lives to

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like allow healing to take place or help facilitate healing. Like we have to accept that that's

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actually probably not a safe place for us. And that's a risky place. And we have to rely

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on Jesus. So good. Right? So like we've talked about this some, I think we're going to do

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a podcast episode just on this later on down the road. But one of, I think the most harmful

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things for the church is, is that we've said, oh, we just want to create a safe place. And

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I was like, so you want to be void of risk? Yeah. That's so counter gospel. Yeah. The

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gospel calls us to enter into those places to bring who Jesus is to those places, to

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bring healing, to bring redemption. And in order to do that, we have to accept the mess

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that comes with it. And that doesn't, and accepting the mess doesn't mean, doesn't mean

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just being like, okay, I'm going to just let that mess be and it'll work itself out. Right?

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It doesn't mean that. Like if you accept something where it's at, it means you want to accept

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to where it's at and then move forward, but move forward. Yeah. And there's, and that

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looks different for everybody. I'm sorry. I'm going to use a analogy really quick and just

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understand that don't equate this with your pain. This is just an idea of accepting risk.

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When I bring a puppy into my house, I'm aware that he's going to chew on things. He's probably

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going to poop on the floor. He's going to pee on things that I don't want him to pee

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on. You know, there's going to be a lot of things that I accept when I bring the puppy

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in. Dogs are destructive. Dogs are destructive because, and they, and they grow up and they

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get better, you know, and they, you know, well, sometimes they get better, but like

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that's that, those are, those are things that I'm, I accept. And so when we, when we step

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into people's trauma, it's not a safe place. It's going to be a messy place. And so I'm

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not equating your, by the way, I'm not, I am not equating your trauma with a dog. But

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like when you step into a situation, like you, it's, it is messy. Like that's whole

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thing we talked about with pastoral things too. When you take people and you put them

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on a stage, they're going to speak heresy at some point because it's hard to talk in

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front of people. And our job as, as pastoral people is to pastor that, not to like harass

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or belittle or attack that person. Right? Like we're actually called into pastor it

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and we know when we do it, it's going to be messy. Sarah, you've been doing worship a

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long time. When you get a new worship leader, is it, is it just smooth as butter when they

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come in the first time? Well, I mean, I'll tell you guys, I, um, I did not lead worship

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this most recent Sunday cause I was coming back from a conference and I knew that I needed

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some time like going to a church conference. Yeah, we're supposed to be filled up, but

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it's, it's also really draining. They are exhausting. It's draining for an introvert

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that has had to learn to extrovert for church. And then you have to go and be around a whole

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bunch of your peers and you're like, Oh yeah, right. I, I still gotta be on point right

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now. And there are always a lot of sessions too. And it's, it's from seven o'clock in

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the morning until nine 30 at night. And you're like, okay. Um, Jesus did take naps people.

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He did take naps. Anyways. Um, I don't know about you, but whenever I see something to

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ending at nine 30, I'm like hard pass. I'm out. They're like, we're done at nine 30.

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I was like, PM. When you travel with your boss, you kind of make sure you're at all

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the sessions. Oh man. I'm sure he listens to this episode. Um, so I, I showed up to

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church and I lost track of how many people are like, you're leading worship today. Right.

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And I was like, Nope. And they're like, and I was like, Oh guys, like, and that, that

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kills me because we don't like different, right. Um, we don't like something that doesn't

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look like what we can tolerate or what makes us comfortable. And guys have, have you guys

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ever watched a gory medical scene or maybe a shoot them up where someone's dying and

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like things are squirting out of a body and, or a medical show and they're frantically

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doing a whippestitch. So anytime we're dealing with humans and anytime we're dealing with

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pain or trauma, it's messy. It's gory. It's either blood or guts. It's verbal people shooting

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things from their mouth. It is physical. It could come out in addictions and things like

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that. And so I guess I, I wonder when people question about it, our is the gift of healing

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for today and for now. And when the cessationists want to get up and they want to say, Nope,

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that was just for a time. I'm wondering when they forgot that Jesus was saying it's the

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sick that need a doctor. And he was telling everyone, it didn't matter if it was a child,

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a woman with a bleeding disorder. It didn't matter. Jesus was saying your pain matters.

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I can handle your mess. Even if people are watching, I can take care of it. So why are

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we afraid to step in? I guess I'm wondering like, why are we afraid to step in? I mean,

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I mean, one of the, one of the main reasons like I struggled a long time ago is, is I

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was like, well, what if it doesn't work? Right? Well, it's not your responsibility. Well,

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I know, but this, this is, this was my, this was my issue coming in. I was like, well,

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what if it doesn't work? I was like, now, first of all, just, just big head on Ben,

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let me just explain this really quick. Okay. Big head on Ben. Like what if it doesn't work

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and people don't trust God because of me? Now that's a valid concern to have in your

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heart, but let's be honest. If people don't trust the creator of the universe because

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of Ben Edwards, they've got some serious issues, right? Uh, because one, I, I'm going to break

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somebody's heart. I'm not God. No, right? You know, and, yeah, he finally is going to

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step off that fake throne of his. Oh man. It feels good to get that off my chest. But

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cancel that intervention. But on the flip side of that, we are called to represent God.

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And so I do think like there is a certain thing about like being aware, like we talked

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about being in a mess. We know it's going to get messy to fix things. It typically does

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get messy. And especially when you're a beginner, right? I'm coming, we're going to come back

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to something that's not as, as necessarily charged as, as healing ministry where people

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are conflicted about it. But when you let's, as you are bringing somebody in new to worship,

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it's messy if they've never done it before. Yeah. So there's so many different analogies

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we could use to paint this picture, right? Yeah. Um, so just, here's a, just a couple

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from my life, one, which is recent, which is today, um, we started the process of ripping

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our deck out on our house. Now Ben's been to my house. My deck like need to get ripped

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out like since I moved in, like I, we, I stepped through it the other day and I was like, oh

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sweet, here we go. So, but now the front of my house looks worse than I did. Right? Cause

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the deck is like half out. Right. But it will look better at some point. Yeah. But the,

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you have to, sometimes you have to, to take care of the brokenness in your life, you have

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to let Christ rip it out. Right. And, um, and that's painful. Right. Cause it changes

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the image. Um, yeah. The other, the other in my life is I come from a family where I

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have five adopted siblings. And I've had people who've talked to me about like, well, well,

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if we're thinking about adoption, what should we consider? I was like, well, you should

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just know that you're entering into trauma. Cause like, if you are taking a kid who is

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not biologically yours into your home, there is some story there of why that had to happen.

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Yeah. Right. Um, and that very, that story can vary, but like, if you're like, oh, well,

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I'm thinking of adopting and you're like, you should look into like, okay, how do I

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deal with people who have had significant trauma? Right. Yeah. But as a church we're

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called like, we are called to bring those people in. Uh, there's a pastor friend of

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mine, um, every Sunday he walks around the church around 7 a.m. He picks up beer bottles,

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cigarettes, stuff like that. And it's brings him such great joy. And the reason being is

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he's like, it shows that broken people feel welcome here. Right. And there's, there's

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a few church members at that church. And this was, this was a few years back, but they were

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the, they were like, man, we just really don't like that. And he's like, well, you know what?

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Like it shows that broken people feel welcomed here. And like, and that's what you want.

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Yeah. Like you, you want a place where broken people feel like they can come for healing

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or they can come for restoration. You said earlier, you're talking about like we can't,

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the church can't necessarily, it can't be a safe place because it's, we'd be devoid

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of risk. Like we try to keep it as safe as possible, right? But it's supposed to be a

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transformative place. Right. Yeah. Um, I think we should preface that. I think it's good

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that churches have checks and balances and do things like, Hey, let's background check

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the people who are going to work with students. Yeah. And that's, that involved in like being

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as safe as possible. But when you work with broken people, you're going to have broken

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people. Yeah. Um, including us. I wouldn't even say like save as possible. I would say

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like you want to manage your risk. Sure. Yeah. You're managing your risk. That is, that is

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better than safe as possible because safe as possible. We'd all be in bubbles. Yeah.

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Right. Uh, yeah. I mean, apparently that really tickled Sarah. She, she likes the idea of

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being in a bubble. Um, so the, uh, so talking to the, uh, let's, let's, let's, let's, uh,

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steer this a little bit and talk about just healing as a, as an idea to the non-Pentecostal

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and Pentecostal. Uh, first thing is coming from a Southern Baptist background, I'm going

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to talk to the non-Pentecostal, right? Um, God wants you to be a conduit of his grace

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into people's life, conduit of his love into people's life, conduit of his kingdom coming

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to earth. How that looks is going to be between you and God, but I guarantee you, it involves

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bringing healing in some capacity to people around you. Um, it is not you doing it is

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always the power of Christ doing it through you. Yeah. But at the same time, you have

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to go, you have to step out. Uh, you step with the authority of God, but you're stepping

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and make sure you're stepping with the authority of God, but you're gonna, you're gonna have

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to go. And so the best place to start is to actually, when people need it or when they

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say they have a need, stop and pray for them and remind them how much God loves them. Because

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regardless of whether they are, I'm going to say quote unquote healed or not, the greatest

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healing is the fact that we know that God is dwelling with us wherever we are, that we're

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not alone. And he's going to stay and sit with us in our brokenness, in our emotion,

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emotional issues, our trauma. He's going, he says, I'm going to be here. I'm going to plant

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my butt right next to your chair next to you. Yeah. And then we're going to go through this

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together or God's going to be doing something demonstrative in their life and they're going

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to have something dramatic happen because God is bringing something, um, into their

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life. That's going to be dramatic healing. I mean, I've had that happen in my life and

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then I've not seen it happen in somebody else's life, but I've seen the exact healing in their

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eyes. Does that make sense? Like I see, I see God doing something in their life to the

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Pentecostal. I'm going to kick that over to my, my good friend, pastor Sarah.

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So I guess for the Pentecostal is I'm, oh, this is, so I'm going to, I'm going to tread

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lightly because I'm still walking in my own wounding of, of going to revivals or a church

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meeting, special speaker and, and having healing services and the anointing of oil. And, um,

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sadly I have seen some abuse of that. So I want to tread lightly because I believe in

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the Pentecostal faith or especially just with the holiness movement, we believe in the power

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of the Holy spirit. And when, and when Jesus says I, all authority from heaven and on earth

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has been given to me to give to you to go do this as Pentecostals go, all right, we're

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supposed to go do this. Let's do it. And, and we can be a little flashy at times with

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it. And, um, I'm still trying to figure that out because I think it's a personal conviction

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when it comes to an expression. And I, I believe that it should be a personal conviction in

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how we are using the gifts of healing. If we're using the gifts of healing to emotionally

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manipulate the room, that's a big problem. If we're using the gifts of healing to over

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dramatize the spirit, that's a problem. So for me, like, as long as we're holding a heart

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of humility in this and, and, and we're making it about the healer and not about us getting

384
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to do it, but we're, we're just keeping our eyes on Jesus. I believe that those expressions

385
00:33:54,360 --> 00:34:01,380
can be done in beautiful ways that look crazy at times that that might have someone laying

386
00:34:01,380 --> 00:34:06,960
on the floor or might have someone running the aisles or might have someone speaking

387
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:15,560
in tongues because we can't, again, who are we? We are not creator. So how can we have

388
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,760
an opinion or a say of how the creator restores things back?

389
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:25,120
Well, when you think about like, if, if I, I'm just using a physical one, if I was in

390
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:32,240
a wheelchair and God healed my legs, I should be visibly excited, right? I should be visibly

391
00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:37,920
excited. I will, I will do backflips, you know, maybe, actually I won't because I, I

392
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,160
don't know if I can do a backflip ever, but it's harder for tall people. That's, that's

393
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:51,200
the issue. Um, but, and just, but I should also, when that, that pain that I have from

394
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:57,400
church trauma doesn't get triggered, I should also do a backflip for that too.

395
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:05,000
Yeah. I think sometimes when healing ministries come in, they, they will often, I want to

396
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,760
be careful with this, but sometimes they'll rip open old wounds that have already been

397
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:14,580
healed. Right? Yeah. Like if I, I'm going to pick on you a little bit, Ben. Do it. Okay.

398
00:35:14,580 --> 00:35:19,120
If I walked over and took your glasses and then said, Oh man, you're blind. And then

399
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,880
like put glasses back on and be like, Oh, you're healed. I did nothing. Yeah. Right.

400
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,400
All I did was give them something that was already healed in his life or something that

401
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:34,280
already helped him in his life. Right. Right. Um, and so, but I've seen that happen too

402
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,920
in churches where, where people have come in and be like, Oh, I'm going to, we're going

403
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:43,080
to do healing revival stuff. And then really they're, they kind of just rip open old wounds

404
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,640
that people have already been healed. Yeah. Hey, anyone here that's been, who has child

405
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,400
abuse, anyone here who's been sexually molested. And then all of a sudden it's like, but you're

406
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:58,520
in a wait, wait. Right. Like, like I have, like I have my own issues from my, my childhood,

407
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,240
right. And for the most part, those have been issues that have been dealt with. Like conversations

408
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:08,080
have been had, healing has taken place. And, but I still have people in my life who like

409
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,040
occasionally try to push and be like, well, didn't you feel this? And it's like, yeah,

410
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,660
but that's done and over with. Like that's been healed. Right. There's been forgiveness

411
00:36:15,660 --> 00:36:23,160
restoration that's taking place in that area. And so I think my encouragement here is just

412
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,520
when we do enter into those places of healing, we also want to learn to recognize the areas

413
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:33,880
that have been healed. That's so good. Like, and it's, and it's not that the healing and

414
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:40,280
sometimes the healing is instant, like instantaneous. Like I have, I have family members who like

415
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:45,880
heavily addicted to substances, found Jesus instantly healed, never craved them again.

416
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,440
Right. I also have family members who are the exact opposite. Yeah. Came to know Jesus

417
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:55,280
and they still wrestle with the, okay, I've given this up, but I still have this temptation

418
00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:01,160
all the time for this, for whatever that is. I don't want to throw them under the bus directly.

419
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:06,200
So I'm being vague. Yeah. Well, when we, when we discussed having this, uh, mini series,

420
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,080
we started with three episodes, which I almost feel like if you were like, yeah, let's talk

421
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,680
about the stuff, but we preface them with three episodes talking about getting yourself

422
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:21,160
right before you step into the spiritual gifts. Yeah. Right. Love God, love other people,

423
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,360
hear the voice of God, demonstrate the fruit of the spirit. Yeah. Right. Uh, because if

424
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,680
you're not a person of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, general

425
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,760
self-cultivation, these aren't fruits that are abundant or at least pursued in your life.

426
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,880
You shouldn't be pursuing these other things. Yeah. Like God will use them in spite of you

427
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,880
because even like, I want to talk about these ones where they, where they rip open old wounds,

428
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,800
right? Let's, let's just talk about the thing where it's not great. Like some bad things

429
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:52,360
have happened. Even in the midst of that, God does use that to work in people's life.

430
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,360
Yeah. And he works in spite of us. And so like, it's like, how do we do it? Not necessarily

431
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,600
like, and I'm not, I'm not, I don't want to pick on anybody in particular, but it's

432
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:06,960
like even in the worst sermons, God will translate that and still reach people because somebody

433
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,240
is trying to faithfully get up and do something. Yeah. Right. But at the same time, our goal

434
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:17,600
shouldn't be to have God work in spite of us. Yeah. Yeah. But rather work with us. Yeah.

435
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,640
We shouldn't forget the stories that come with our wounds. 100%. Like, like we need

436
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,020
to know our story, where we come from. We've, we've talked about that quite extensively

437
00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:30,720
here on this podcast. So we shouldn't forget those, but we shouldn't also, we also don't

438
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:35,520
need to just dwell in that. Correct. Right. Like there comes a point where there is healing

439
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:43,180
that's taking place and healing that continues to take place and we need to live into that.

440
00:38:43,180 --> 00:38:50,200
I think this is just such, it's such a broad topic. Like I think as a listener right now,

441
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,640
you guys probably had a couple of times where like, Ooh, they're going to go this way. And

442
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,440
then all of a sudden we, you know, like quickly corrected and went left or we went right.

443
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:04,000
Cause I'm even, even feeling it in my spirit. There's been so many things that we're touching

444
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:13,240
on. But before I, before I leave here today, I think my soul's being convicted in the fact

445
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:21,380
that what are we doing when we have been recipients of healing and we've experienced the supernatural

446
00:39:21,380 --> 00:39:30,280
power of, of him being Jehovah Ratha. How are we then being ministers of that healing to

447
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:36,980
others? Because it says that if we have been given freely, freely, then we give. And we've,

448
00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:40,840
we brushed on it a little bit, you know, it has to do with comparison of how we view other

449
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:48,180
people's pain. It has to do with our own personal viewpoints of, of what we've experienced and

450
00:39:48,180 --> 00:39:53,120
what healing ministry looks like. But I'm wondering, and then we talked about fear,

451
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:59,440
like being afraid of like dealing with the mess and like, but if we have been recipients

452
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:07,200
of this, why are we not freely giving it? And I can only speak from my personal experience

453
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:15,400
that I remember at the age of 12, it was so significant. My parents had separated. We're

454
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,760
living in our, our second new apartment, you know, we're, we're fine. We're, we're on food

455
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:27,800
stamps, but Hey, like we have our own place now. And I remember listening to a worship

456
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:34,160
song and immediately in my heart was grieved at the age of 12 that I would never have children.

457
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,060
Why would I think that at the age of 12, I'm looking at my 12 year old now and she's like,

458
00:40:38,060 --> 00:40:43,200
do not ask me to babysit. Do not ask me to do anything. Like she is like, don't ask me

459
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:49,800
to cook. Like my 12 year old right now is like, no. So why, why I would have that feeling.

460
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:55,920
And I remember the story of Hannah in the Bible. So we talk about a woman that experienced

461
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:04,080
healing. She cried out to God. The prophet Eli told her that if you go and back to your

462
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:09,200
husband, you will have a child. And she had a child. And so at 12 years old, I made a

463
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:16,280
covenant with God. I say, God, I promise you that if you, if you will not make me barren,

464
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:21,480
if you give me a child, I will give that child back to you. 12 years old. Okay. Fast forward

465
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:31,080
to being 21 years old. I'm married, unequally yoked, far from God, drugs, drinking, like

466
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,980
I'm pissed. I'm pissed at my trauma. And I'm, I'm going to, I'm giving God the finger.

467
00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:43,480
He's not going to get me. And I'm sitting there at 21 and I'm going, well crap, you

468
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:49,120
know, like I want to have a baby. But now Richard and I are dealing with what was told

469
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:55,280
to me at the age of 15. At the age of 15, I was told I would probably never have children

470
00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,200
that there would have to be a whole bunch of medical interventions. I actually had significant

471
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:05,480
surgery done at the age of 15 to try to help correct it. And the doctor came back and said,

472
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:12,160
we don't, good luck when that time comes, good luck. So 21, Richard and I are going,

473
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:19,120
okay, you know, do we want to have a family? You know, are we going to try this out? And,

474
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:24,800
and miraculously guys, when the doctor said that I should not have been able to get pregnant,

475
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:32,720
lo and behold, Richard and I are pregnant. I'm not serving God still far away. You know,

476
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:36,480
Richard's, you know, doing his own thing, you know, like, we're just not like, we're

477
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,440
not doing anything. And I am laying on a couch in Phoenix, Arizona on an October morning,

478
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:48,320
Sunday morning. And I audibly hear the voice of God say, Sarah, you made a covenant with

479
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:57,520
me. Guys, I was pregnant with my first child and it was a boy. And God said, you made a

480
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:06,200
covenant with me. If I gave you him, you would give him back to me. I was literally walking

481
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:14,460
out healing that somehow in my 12 year old soul, God had put into my heart, Sarah, make

482
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:21,840
this covenant with me. Let me show you won't I do it. That when I was told at 15, you're

483
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:28,320
not going to have children, I was like, I just didn't worry about it. Right. And then

484
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,760
I get married and it's, you know, the husband wants to start a family and the doctors are

485
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:46,080
going well, and boom, I'm pregnant. So I worry because that is, I think that's a, for those

486
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:51,440
that don't know, for the listeners that don't know, I have five children all conceived naturally.

487
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:58,760
Three of whom were conceived on contraception. So let me tell you, it's a miracle. I'm literally

488
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:04,720
living out a miracle being a mother. Why is that stopping me from going and praying for

489
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:10,560
that person that is struggling across the street? It's been freely given to me. And

490
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:18,980
what happens is I get stuck in me. I make it about me. And that typically is what stops

491
00:44:18,980 --> 00:44:24,400
me from being the vessel that Jesus was saying all authority from heaven and earth has been

492
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:33,040
given to me to give to you to go do this, do it. And I, I just came back from this conference

493
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:41,420
and my husband and I are sitting outside of the, the TSA line in the Portland airport.

494
00:44:41,420 --> 00:44:46,480
And this woman just comes and plops right down next to us. And Richard and I are kind

495
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,920
of frantically trying to deal with ourselves and get ready to go home to the kids. And,

496
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,920
and we're both tired and exhausted. And this woman just starts talking to us. And she starts

497
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,000
opening up about how this is the first time she's flown in 15 years. And she went to go

498
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,960
be with some family members for a specific thing. And she was going home and she just

499
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:10,520
had like a lot of questions in her soul and just, just felt a lot of unrest. And I'm listening

500
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:16,640
to her and I hear God say, go over there and pray for her. And I was like, hot, no. And

501
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:21,000
so I just keep talking to her and I'm like, Richard, grab your bags. We're going to go.

502
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:30,880
Like, and all of a sudden I heard him say, Sarah, bless my daughter. So I, I take the

503
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,360
seat that's separating the two of us and I sit right to her next to her and her eyes

504
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,480
get big. And I'm like, my name's Sarah, by the way, we've been chatting and she shares

505
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:44,480
her name with me. And I was like, I need to pray for you. Is that okay? And she goes,

506
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:52,640
uh-huh. So I, I, I, that's all she, uh-huh. And I put my hand on her leg and I just say

507
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:58,200
this simple blessing that God had asked me to say over her. I finished and her eyes are

508
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:06,480
big and I just squeezed her and I said, thank you. I literally felt something leave my body.

509
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:11,800
Like I was tingling from the top of my head down to my toes. I was shaking my hands out

510
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:17,600
as I walked away from her. And when I walked away from her, she erupted in this loud laughter

511
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,320
of joy and there was this man sitting next to her and they were just shaking their heads.

512
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,040
Like what just happened? And I'm walking away going, what just happened? And I literally

513
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:36,060
couldn't talk after that. Something left my body freely. It has been given to you freely

514
00:46:36,060 --> 00:46:43,480
give to others. I wish that I could live in that Holy spirit, bold moment all the time,

515
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:48,800
but I was coming fresh on the heels of getting real with my depravity. The things that aren't

516
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:55,920
yet healed in my soul. I, those wounds that came ripped out when I was at this conference

517
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,600
and I was being reminded how Jesus met me in the midst of that. So how could I not give

518
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,800
that to her? Just bless her. That's all he was asking.

519
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,800
It is really difficult, but there's always miraculous things that happen when God is

520
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,920
just doing, he's, it's always the simple things that he utters and that it makes profound

521
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,680
impacts. I think I've shared this story with you guys before when I was coming, I was also

522
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,040
coming back from a conference. So just definitely, I got heels when people don't come back from

523
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:28,560
conferences too. It's not just conference, you know, but I was coming back from a conference

524
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,520
and I was, I was in the Portland airport going down, going down, you know, you have to go

525
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:38,640
down to where the horizon flights are. Right. And I was walking past Starbucks and I heard

526
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:47,560
God say, get a $5 gift card. I'm like, can I get coffee too? And, and so I got, I got

527
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,920
coffee and I got a $5 gift card and I was like, okay, why have I got another card? He's

528
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:57,880
like, it's for the person sitting next to you. Okay. So I'm like in my head, I'm like,

529
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,920
how do I give somebody a $5 gift card and tell them that God told me to give them the

530
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:06,760
gift card without being super weird. Right. And so, uh, I sat down and this kid, he's

531
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:13,680
like 19 comes and sits next to me and a really nice kid. Um, and, and I was like, Hey, I

532
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:18,680
got this for you. He's like, he's like, he's like, Oh, and I was like, yeah, I felt, I

533
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,200
always feel a little bit bad that people have to sit next to me cause I'm quite large in

534
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,320
these little twin prop airplanes, you know? And, uh, and I was like, and also as I was

535
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:35,920
walking past, God told me to get you a $5 gift card and he goes, Oh, and he, so, so

536
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,640
super nice kid. And then he starts asking me about like where I've been. I told him

537
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,560
about like where I had a conference I'd been to and he's like, he's like, Oh yeah. He's

538
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,320
like, he's like, well, I, one time I was, uh, I was skiing and I got into an accident

539
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,520
and I got knocked out and I woke up in the hospital and I was like, am I dead? And a

540
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,640
voice said, no, you're not. I'm here with you. And there wasn't anybody in the room.

541
00:48:54,640 --> 00:49:01,440
I was like, Oh, so you've met God before. Right now. Remember Benjamin has zero tax.

542
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:07,120
Yeah. I was just, I know exactly how you said that. So I just laughed. And he goes, he goes,

543
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,000
well maybe. And he's like, he's like, I, you know, I always, I, I grew up, uh, when my

544
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,800
mom is Catholic and I grew up in the church and the Catholic church and, and I've read

545
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,760
the Bible some and, uh, he has like, God seems like a cool guy, but I've just never had like

546
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:23,440
an encounter. And, uh, and so I was talking to him about some different things and praying

547
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,520
for some different things. And, uh, and I'd mentioned something about praying for people

548
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,240
when they have like screws or things in their ankles and like, uh, how people have seen

549
00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:36,240
them like dissolve in the, and like, they just don't show up on x-rays anymore. And,

550
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:44,160
uh, he goes, well I have screws in my ankle. You pray for me. And I'm like, Oh man, I don't

551
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:50,840
know. Like I was like that. And so, but I didn't say that out loud. I said, sure. And,

552
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,400
uh, and so I, I just, I prayed for him and I started to pray for him. I said, Hey, just,

553
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,680
I want to let you know, uh, before we pray for you, I want to talk, tell you how much

554
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,080
God loves you and whether or not like this happens in your life today, that's going to

555
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:06,000
be true no matter what. So I started praying for him as I just let me know if you, if anything,

556
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,360
you start feeling anything. And, and, uh, so I prayed for him and, and I said, I was

557
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,000
like, anything. He's like, no, I'm just like, all right, I'm just going to pray. You know,

558
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:17,240
that just God would fill you with his love. And you know, and started praying like a very,

559
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:21,480
very long prayer. And he goes, well, are you ready for me? I'm ready to let you down Saturday.

560
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:26,880
And he goes, which man asked God like God who were saying uh, and everything just secrets

561
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:31,640
to you. And he goes, look, even like, even as he said to", and I mean, I'm saying I'm

562
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,200
not saying have you have to know a prayer because it was heartfelt. Right. And then

563
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:41,360
he goes, whoa. I was like, what's going on? He's like, my entire legs, just went numb

564
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:46,760
and then his legs started shaking. Now, Southern Baptist shock, right? His legs started shaking

565
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:52,760
to this point. Inwardly, I'm like, ah! Right? Because I'm like, I don't know what's going on.

566
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:59,640
And, but I'm like, Holy Spirit or seizure. Yeah. So I said, well, the Holy Spirit, you know,

567
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:04,680
he manifests himself in people different ways. I said very calmly, but internally I was screaming.

568
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:09,080
And I was like, if this kid, like, because we, I've been in a conference and people had like,

569
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,680
you know, they got hit and they were down for like 20 minutes. And I was like, people are going to

570
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:18,120
come by and be like, what did you do? You know? And I was like, oh no. But he, he says, he's like,

571
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,680
just talking. He's like, he's like, I just, I feel connected, you know, to God. So like I was

572
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,240
prayed for him and then he has to make a ton of questions about the Bible. And so the flight from

573
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:33,560
Portland to Seattle is not long, right? It's not a long flight. 31 minutes. And so we came in and

574
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,320
I had to go a different place when I got into Seattle and he had a place he had to go to with

575
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,760
connections. And so we're getting off the plane and like, he's just asking me different things.

576
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,120
I gave him some, some ideas about where to find a Bible that's easy to read,

577
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:50,040
where to start in the Bible if he hasn't read it before, why it's really important to get like

578
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,600
some contextual analysis on the Bible because it's 3000 years old. You got to understand what is

579
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,440
being written. And then I told him to start praying, start writing down what he's praying

580
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:03,080
and listening for God to speak to him. Right. And compare it to the stuff that he's reading.

581
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:08,600
Right. And so I left and then like, I'm standing there like getting my luggage and his parent,

582
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,840
his parents were traveling with him by the way. And, and he's like, I'm going to tell him,

583
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,120
I'm going to tell them everything. And I want to talk to them about God. And you know,

584
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:21,960
he's like real excited. Right. And so I'm standing there, like they have a little twin luggage things

585
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,160
that they bring out. Right. And so I'm standing there waiting for my little thing to that I carried

586
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:32,360
on to go. And he runs up and he hugs me and he's like, okay, I got to go. And he runs away. And so

587
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:39,320
I gave him my phone number and two days later I got a text. Like I was like random encounter,

588
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:45,320
half hour, you know, whatever. I get a text. He says, I don't know who you are or what you did.

589
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,560
All I know is my life isn't the same and thank you for it.

590
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,960
It was a terrifying moment for me. And that's not the only one I have. I have lots of stories that

591
00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,440
I could share. Yeah. And by the way, this is why having real relationship, real conversation

592
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,480
matters because you find out God's been doing crazy things in everybody's life. Right. Yeah.

593
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:12,040
I, I, uh, I think, thank you so much for the story because you just brought me into a piece

594
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:19,880
of your life. I didn't understand before. Right. Um, I, I understand you more now than I ever had

595
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:29,400
before, but it's messy and it's hard. And I guarantee you, you're going to have that internal

596
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:40,360
scream like I had. Yes. Yeah. You are going to, uh, I will, um, I, it's, I had a girlfriend, um,

597
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:46,360
message me recently. Uh, she had mentioned that she needed prayer and there were people there. So

598
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:52,520
I was like, everyone get on. We're praying for her. And it was at an inconvenient time.

599
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,880
We were supposed to get ready to be going out to lead worship, to start church on time. And this

600
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,280
person had said, I need prayer. They weren't on the worship team going out. And I was like, well,

601
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:08,840
the worship team is here. We're, we're, uh, I can't think of the word that we're bears of,

602
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:13,800
of this covenant with God. Like this is what we do. So I don't care if we're starting church late.

603
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:19,640
And I was just, you know, going to just do the Lord pray, you know, heal her Jehovah

604
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:24,280
Rafa to your will, yada yada. And I heard God say, cause my hands were on her shoulders and

605
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:29,320
everyone else's hands were on her shoulders. And I heard God say, Sarah, this is where I need you

606
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:34,920
to put her hand. I just knew that she was having health issues. I put my hand on the small of her

607
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:41,640
back and I immediately felt heat resonating from my hand. And, and I started tingling from the top

608
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:50,520
of my head down. We prayed, we left. I got a text message from her. Um, do you guys, do you guys

609
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:57,400
mind if I read it? Because she's speaking to, to the, the gift of, of healing yesterday,

610
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:03,640
where you touched my back in the exact spot of my pain and it felt hot to me. And when you touched

611
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:09,160
it, it was cooling. I had sharp pains in the front of my belly, lower back. And then she said,

612
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:17,240
I want to remind you, wow, you are the healing healer three times. You have prayed for me

613
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:23,880
and God granted healing. We need people in our life to remind us of that. I have prayed for

614
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:30,760
countless people. And like Ben is saying, Ben, you were given a gift that a lot of us don't get. You

615
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:37,000
got to see the fruit of the healing. There are so many times that as we are being asked to be

616
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:44,600
partners, co-heirs, co-labors of the kingdom of light, that we don't get to see the fruit of acting

617
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:52,680
out this freely giving out what we know has been given to us, but rarely do we get to see,

618
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:58,520
did the healing actually happen? And that's where that prayer of faith has to take place.

619
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:06,840
We have to believe that God has already healed it by his stripes. We are healed. It doesn't say

620
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:16,200
by his stripes, we are going to be healed. By his stripes, we are healed. We have to be praying from

621
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:22,520
a place of saying that healing has already happened. It's in the works and we are just aligning

622
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:27,160
with God's will, God's timeline, and we are going to ask him for it because you have not,

623
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:34,040
because you have asked not. All too often, I think one of the issues we run into is we just

624
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:41,720
neglect saying yes. Because you both talked about, both your stories here, it was about you saying

625
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:47,400
yes. That was a big part of it. You could have walked the other way. You could have walked out

626
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:54,520
in disobedience. And what would have happened? We don't really know, but the thing is with the

627
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:59,960
saying yes is we are responsible for saying yes and living into how Christ has called us to live.

628
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:05,480
The outcome of that is not our responsibility. Because Ben, you were talking about earlier how

629
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:12,600
oh, but playing that what if in your head. What if it doesn't work? What if I lay hands on this

630
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:19,320
person and nothing happens? What if I pray for them and no change? What if I give them the gift

631
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:25,720
card and it's a really awkward 35 minute flight? And sometimes you don't see the fruit of that.

632
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:30,040
Right. Sometimes you're called into something and you don't see the fruit of it. I remember one time

633
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:37,640
I was standing in line at Starbucks and I just got paid. I had a couple hundred bucks in my wallet

634
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,560
and the Lord was like, hey, I want you to take a hundred bucks and buy the drinks for the people

635
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:46,840
behind you. And I was like, come again? I want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly.

636
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:55,160
Listen, listen, I will do whatever you ask me, but I want to make sure this is God speaking and not

637
00:57:55,160 --> 00:58:00,920
the devil trying to get rid of my paycheck. I was like, come again. All right. And so,

638
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:05,560
but long story short, gave the hundred bucks and just told the barista, I was like, we want to pay

639
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:11,320
for all the drinks behind me. And anybody who knows me knows that I don't have a ton of money.

640
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,280
I don't dress like I have a ton of money. Like anybody watching this, they're like,

641
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,640
I don't have a ton of money. I don't dress like I have a ton of money. Like anybody watching the

642
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:26,680
video can tell that. But, but what it was is it was the barista behind the counter needed an

643
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:32,680
encounter with Jesus. And then, so I came back a few days later and she bought my drink and she's

644
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:39,240
like, I have no idea why you would do that. And so then I just got to share Jesus with her.

645
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:44,280
I just got to share the calling that God's put on my heart and my life. And it opened up this

646
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:49,960
conversation for something that she needed to hear. All right. It wasn't, it wasn't that hundred

647
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,280
bucks wasn't for the people behind me. Like maybe there's blessing that came out of that for somebody,

648
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:58,840
right? But it was for the person who's making the drinks who needed to hear about Jesus in that

649
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:03,640
moment. Like we have this calling in our lives to be faithful and obedient to what Christ has put in

650
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:10,840
front of us. Sometimes that's going to make us look like fools. And that's okay because we don't

651
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:17,960
follow, we don't follow the ways of this world. We follow Christ. Right. And, and so we need to lean

652
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:23,480
into that, be willing to say yes. And even if it, sometimes you'll find out that healing works

653
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:29,560
and you can see the fruit of it. Sometimes you won't. Right. And, but still whether you do or

654
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:34,840
do not see the fruit of that, you need to lean into that. Lean into that obedience of following

655
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:42,040
Christ and saying yes. A less dramatic story, but like, I just think it's going to really help maybe

656
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:47,160
encapsulate, like, cause some things are really dramatic. Something like, well, obviously I don't

657
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:54,040
want to compare gifts of God. Right. There's one spirit of many gifts. Yes. That's Paul said. And

658
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:59,240
so I've told this story on the podcast before I was with my niece and we went to this restaurant.

659
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:05,240
We had a bunch of work there and then I paid for the meal and she saw me right in the tip. Now,

660
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:10,840
one of the things that people may or may not know about me is that I like to tip generously because

661
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:17,480
I believe that God has been extremely generous with me. Yeah. And so I want that to show up in

662
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:22,760
the way that I treat other people. Yeah. And so she looked at my tip and she said, but our waitress

663
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:28,760
was terrible because you know, she was eight. So that's what eight year olds say. And the service

664
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,840
was not great. I will agree with you. And she says, so why did you give so much money uncle Ben? I

665
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:39,080
said, well, Jesus has been incredibly generous with me, especially when I didn't deserve it.

666
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,080
And so when I'm generous with people, especially when they don't deserve it,

667
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:48,600
it reminds me of who I serve. Yep. Two days later, she was doing something and she went to go tip

668
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:53,720
and she gave some extra money. She says, see, I remember Jesus, you know, and it was, it was

669
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:59,640
great. I was like, I was like, good job kid. You know? I was like, but like she's brought up that

670
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:03,000
story a number of times. Like whenever we go to tip, she's, she's like, she's like, oh, uncle Ben,

671
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:09,320
don't forget to tip big, you know? So it's just, it's just, you know, given the opportunity to

672
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:16,760
do something in somebody's life because it's been done for us to your point, we've freely received

673
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:24,040
freely give. Right. Well, and I hope that people, when, when you guys are listening to this and

674
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:30,520
you're, you're getting, you know, real life stories of times that we were rustling with our flesh,

675
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:36,200
you know, that the spirit of God was alive and is alive and was speaking to us in those moments and

676
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:43,720
saying, go be my hands and feet. And we were going, uh, come again. No, uh, who, you know,

677
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:55,960
new phone. I hope that people are realizing that again, I love just the grace of God and living

678
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:04,120
this sanctified life, this deeper life, this, this awareness that everything that, that Jesus

679
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:11,800
was coming to tell us that the kingdom of heaven was near, he brought heaven to earth because of

680
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:19,880
Jesus's life and walking and living out and showing us what to do. He brought the Holy spirit to us

681
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:28,760
as a deposit to show us that the kingdom of heaven is here and that we're going to wrestle until,

682
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:34,760
until he comes back again, we're going to wrestle with our flesh. But hopefully as we testify,

683
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:39,240
because really that's what we're doing right now is yes, we're talking about it and we're

684
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,880
sharing stories and we're being honest about, you know, living this life, but we're really

685
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:50,760
testifying of the times that we were saying, we are not enough. God, did you get the right person?

686
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:58,600
I'm sitting in Portland airport. No, thank you. And instead God's going, yes, I'm choosing you

687
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:06,040
through my spirit and you won't be alone. You're not going to have to think about what to say to

688
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:11,400
that person when you're on that 31 minute flight. You're, you're not going to have to think of what

689
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:16,360
to say to that barista the next time you're just going to be like, I just love Jesus and Jesus told

690
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:25,800
me to do it. And I, we overcomplicate these gifts. We overcomplicate them. Yeah.

691
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,320
So I want to, I want to try to bring this, bring this in for landing. Biblically,

692
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:37,880
you have to do some real big gymnastics to not see healing as something that God does in the present

693
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:43,480
day through his people. Right. Um, that doesn't mean that every person you see who proclaims

694
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:48,680
healing is doing the work of God. Right. So one of the things we've talked repeatedly about is you

695
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:52,200
got to know the word of God so that when you encounter the spirit of God, it connects with

696
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:59,240
the word of God that you know. Right. Yeah. Um, but in the context of spiritual gifts, we,

697
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:04,840
it's so important that we have this fundamental truth of loving God and that translates to loving

698
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:10,840
other people that we learn to tap into the voice of God, be directed by his word, because what did

699
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:17,160
all of our stories have in common? God spoke and we responded. Right. Now, whether he speaks to you

700
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:22,440
through prompts, through audible word, through text messages that you get from your wife that are like,

701
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:31,000
Oh, yep, that's definitely something I needed to do. Right. Um, Lindsay was just on here, man. Come

702
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:39,320
on. Um, and then be demonstrating the fruit of the spirit. It becomes paramount for us. Like if

703
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:45,960
you're going to, but to do these things and then, but actively listen to God and actually walk them

704
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:51,720
out. That's prophetic word. That is hospitality. That is preaching the word. That's worship. It's

705
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:56,680
it's healing ministry. It's speaking in tongues. All of these things that we do that are spiritual

706
01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:02,600
gifts, their spiritual anointings, if you will, they're meant to be done from a person who settled

707
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:07,560
in following God with everything that they got. And if you don't have that settled, you really

708
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:14,200
need to get that settled before you start moving. Yes. Right. Like God, God can do a lot more through

709
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:19,880
people who are yielded to his will than people who are just going to do stuff. And being settled in

710
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:24,680
that doesn't mean having it down perfectly. Correct. Because when you set and walk into it,

711
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:32,280
it's still going to be messy. Yeah. And one of the things that, that I'm always just careful of is a

712
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,520
lot of times I've, I've met people who are like, here's the set ways of how you deal with people

713
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:43,400
who are dealing with trauma or pain. And I'm like, the problem is, is it's so individualized to that

714
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:48,520
person that you can't, you can't say here's the set way of how you deal with it. You can't say

715
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:53,000
these are some trends that we see that might be helpful. Here are some suggestions. Yeah. Right.

716
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:57,320
Right. But I've had people with, with some of the trauma and pain in my life who have stepped in

717
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:02,040
and been like, Oh, well, you know, if you do this, this, this, or this, and I was like, that was

718
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:08,600
actually, that just made it worse. Yeah. Like, and so, but when we're walking out, walking this out

719
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:15,240
with Jesus, right, when we are, when we as believers are taking this to the world and we're settled in

720
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:21,080
who he is, what that simply means is that we're striving to be more like him every day. We're

721
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:26,040
striving to follow him every day. And as we do that, the Lord's going to put these opportunities

722
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:32,280
in our paths. Right. Right. Yes. I mean, it's, he tells us that all throughout the Bible. Yeah.

723
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,640
Well, we want to thank you once again for being here with us. We love it.

724
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,160
I don't know if you know how much we love it, but we love it.

725
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:47,720
And so we will be, we will be back with our next mini series soon. It'll be in the book of James.

726
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:52,760
That'll be fun. And I think, I think we've convinced your pastor to come on too.

727
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:58,120
You better get him soon because he leaves on like the 14th of May. Yeah. I have, I have,

728
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:02,040
you're one of the things I'm leaving this in here so he can hear this when he gets prepped for this

729
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:08,200
episode, like coming in. He does not text me back. So you call him back. He's not going to text me

730
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:14,440
back. He does not text me back. So you call. Okay. I'll call. And you text. And then you can be like,

731
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:18,280
Kate, if you don't answer my texts, I'm going to FaceTime you, or I'm going to show up.

732
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:26,760
Oh, man. So good. He's such an introvert. Like going to a conference with him and seeing the

733
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:33,480
two of us, like I'm introverted. And I was like, yeah, I have people skills at least. Yeah.

734
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:39,400
Like you're introverted and then there's Kate. So good. All right. We're throwing Kate under the

735
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:47,160
bus. We will see you guys next week. And that's a wrap for today's episode of Love and Context.

736
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,240
We hope you enjoyed this engaging conversation and gained valuable insights into the powerful

737
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:55,960
message of love within the Bible. We'd love to hear from you and continue the conversation.

738
01:07:55,960 --> 01:08:01,000
Connect with us by sending us your questions, thoughts, and suggestions to loveandcontext

739
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:07,160
at gmail.com. We greatly appreciate your feedback and ideas for future episodes.

740
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:10,920
Stay connected with us on social media for updates, behind the scenes content,

741
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,800
and additional resources. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook

742
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:20,280
at loveandcontext. Don't forget to hit that follow button to stay up to date with the latest episodes

743
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:25,480
and join our growing community. Thank you for being part of the Love and Context family. Remember,

744
01:08:25,480 --> 01:08:30,440
love is at the heart of it all. Until next time, keep seeking wisdom, embracing love,

745
01:08:30,440 --> 01:08:34,120
and living out your faith in the context of today's world.