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Season two of Love in Context podcast welcomes you. Get ready for engaging unscripted conversations

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with your hosts, Ben and Spencer. Our mission remains unchanged to explore the Bible through

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the powerful lens of love. In this new season, we'll embark on a journey together, unearthing

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fresh insights and gaining deeper understanding of how we can love God and live out our faith

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in practical ways. So let's dive into this season of Love in Context, where love in the

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context of the Bible intersect to transform our lives. Welcome to the Love in Context

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podcast. We were God and now we're back. Ben had a little too much coffee this morning.

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A little too much. It's probably underselling how much coffee I've had today. She went to

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the coffee shop and I was like, as many shots as you can fit in this cup. I was like, how

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many shots do you normally put in there? And I was like, double it. Double it. Yeah. We

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are once again joined by the soon to be Reverend Sarah Harney. And we are so excited you're

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here. If you have a regular listener, you know that Sarah is a pastor out at Stax Altangas

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Lai's church, which is also where Dominique, who was on here a few weeks ago, is also serving

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as well. Correct. So we're glad you're back. My favorite comment that I got was somebody

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listened to your first episode when you're here with Deuteronomy and they said, boy,

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I really like that woman pastor on there. So it was a good one. Yeah, it was a good one.

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And it was kind of a weird way to say it, but he's completely supportive of people.

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So like he was completely supportive, but he really liked you having him here. Cool.

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I love it. Today we're going to get into the nitty gritty. There are four sections of scripture

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that kind of speak against women being pastors. So we thought it would be good to have Sarah

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on here to talk about those with us. I think we were titling this one controversial verses.

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Yes. Yes. And so we're going to, so those, we're going to kind of dive into those, those

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scriptures today. So we should preface this. I want to preface this a little bit. We're

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just saying a couple of things like one, when we're talking about women in ministry or women

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pastors, you really need to define what a church is. You need to define what preaching

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is and you need to define what shepherding looks like. And if you can't define those

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three things, maybe go back, maybe go read some scripture, define those before you enter

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into the conversation. All right. Because you need to take the core principles of being

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a pastor and you need to be able to find that. Yeah. So, so these scriptures were actually

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me talking about today are actually a lot of scriptures that try to speak against this.

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And there are scriptures that people try to use to speak against this, speak against women

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being pastors. Not, not that anybody in the church would ever be accused of weaponizing

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scripture against people, right? It never happened. It never happened. And it doesn't,

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it happens by the way with a lot more than just these verses. Yeah. So, so Sarah, I'm

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sure you've heard these, I'm sure people have said these verses to you. I have friends who,

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I have other friends who are women pastors who they've had these verses weaponized against

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them as well. And so we just want to talk about them. We want to take some time to put

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them in their context. Right. We're not going, we're not going to take a particular denomination

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side or anything like that. We're just going to put these in their context and go from

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that. So that's all good. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Sounds good. I'm with you, Spence.

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You are? Yeah. Are you? I'm with you. Ben's letting me do more talking cause he knows

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this is a soap box for me. So it's going to be great. So there's also the thing that for

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whatever reason, when we have a guest, you talk a lot less and so like I gotta get Spence

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to talk. Well, you all do fine. Like when there's a guest on, you all do fine. I'm like,

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ah, you're doing great. I don't need you to jump in on this. Pretty soon this is going

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to be the love and context podcast with Ben and guests. Like, no, we don't want to do that.

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Yeah. And then Spencer will be like, uh-huh. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. A hundred percent. So

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first passage we're going to look at is first Corinthians 11, three through 12. Ben, do

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you want to read that? Yeah. And I actually want to, so it's 11, three through 12. But

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just so you know, just prior to this, Paul has gone into this conversation about should

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you eat meat offered to idols? Should you not eat meat offered to idols? And about learning

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how to be conscious of people's personal preferences and how they serve God and that it's not a

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big deal. If you don't believe that you're serving an alternate God by eating this meat,

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then you can eat the meat, but also don't go into somebody else's house who does feel

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that way and do that. Right? So he says, uh, he makes a same, he says, don't cause anyone

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to stumble. This is in 32 of 10, uh, whether Jews, Greeks, or the church of God, even as

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I try to please everyone in every way, for I am not seeking my own good, but the good

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of many so that they may be saved. Follow my example as I follow Christ. So this is all

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about learning what's going on culturally and behaving appropriately to the people around

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you. Right? I follow the example of Christ. I praise you for remembering me and everything

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and holding to the traditions just as I pass them on to you. Then this first comes in,

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but I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ and the head of every

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woman is man and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his

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head covered dishonors his head, but the woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered

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dishonors her head. It is the same as having her head shaved for if a woman does not cover

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her head and she might as well have her have her hair cut off, but it is a disgrace for

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a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. A

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man ought not to cover his head says he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the

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glory of man for man did not come from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created

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for woman, but woman for man. It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority

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over her own head because of the angels. Nevertheless in the Lord, women are not independent of

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man nor is man independent of woman for as woman came from man so also man is born of

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woman, but everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves is a proper for woman to pray

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to God with her head uncovered. Yeah. That verse seems very specific right? Yeah. When

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I'm looking at that I'm like okay there's a lot of there's a lot that Paul's saying

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but he's being very specific about head coverings. Yeah. Okay. What he's not saying is he's not

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saying women can't. Correct. In this passage. That's one thing he's not saying, but the

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biggest thing I actually want to talk about here is when Paul is writing about men and

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women in the context of marriage because that's in marriage and prayer which is kind of context

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here. Do you think Paul doesn't understand etzer connecto? Yeah I would say that he probably

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definitely understands etzer connecto. Okay. Because I know where you're leading with that.

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Like at the beginning he's like woman or woman came from man not man for woman then he's

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like later oh by the way man comes from woman all the time. Right? So maybe you should judge

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for yourselves what's appropriate in your circumstance. Yeah. Yeah. So when Paul's writing

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this he clearly knows that woman was made as a suitable helper for man just and that

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language that he uses is the same for God being our helper. Right? So he knows that

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there's this equal submission that's going on between man and woman. Yeah. That when

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sin came into the world it was woman ate and then man ate and then sin entered. Right?

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And so he knows there's an equality here. So then you have to ask the question why is

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he saying these things. Right. We haven't talked a lot about the city of Corinth. We've

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talked about Ephesus before but in this case he's talking to the city of Corinth and Corinth

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is a there's a lot going on in Corinth. Like he has to write a lot of like things of correction

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but he also has to write to a city that is exploding with the Spirit of God. Yeah. Right.

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So it's messy but there's some crazy things going on because he has to talk to them about

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tongues and healings and prophesying and church order and all these different things because

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it's exploding with the Spirit of God and there's like tons of things that are happening

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that are like supernatural and people are excited and they're and they're bringing them

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back to Christ but they're not necessarily like it's messy. Right. Because God's pouring

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out his spirit on all flesh. And let's have grace because there's I was talking to somebody

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about a friend of mine who like this friend will be like Spencer said he had a huge impact

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on my life and I was like you know what it was Sarah. Sarah said this. Yeah. Somebody

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else but it was one of those things is during a season my life where I'm like I am really

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glad that the Lord had an impact on his life despite me. Right. Right. Like because some

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of the things I was saying to him I was like looking back at my that was not accurate correct

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at all. Right. And the Lord still had an impact. Right. So there was still movement that was

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going on. So we like we need to have grace when when we have people coming to know Jesus

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and them not knowing what to do. Yeah. And Paul's not particularly angry in this letter.

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He's just dealing he's because he heard from he heard from a prominent family in the church

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that there were issues. Right. And he'd say hey we're confused about this. We're arguing

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about this. And so he's writing this letter. He's like hey let's let's clear up some things.

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Right. Yeah. You're not a follower of Peter or a follower of Paul or a follower of Paul

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as you're a follower of God. Right. You're a follower of Christ. There isn't a spirit

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that prophesies in a spirit that heals a spirit that you know does this. There's one spirit

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that you follow the spirit of Christ. Right. Like he's redirecting them. But ultimately

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coming back to you know the center of this letter is Corinthians 13 where he talks about

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love and this being the the apex of the higher way. Yeah. Right. Learning how to love and

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submit the crazy thing that I find about scripture when people pull it out of context is if you

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take this passage we just read and I'm talking to you and I say if a woman does not cover

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her head she might as well have her hair cut off. That's what the Bible says. OK. Here's

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the problem. The Bible also says just for yourselves is there proper for a woman to

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pray with her head to God with her head uncovered. Because the same passage in the same passage

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because he's saying like there is an argument for it culturally. There's an argument against

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it culturally. You need to judge for yourselves what is appropriate in this situation. You

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need to be thinking about God not about yourselves. You know that she's going. No I'm I'm not

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there yet. She'll be there. She'll be there. Don't you pull a Jamie Mitchell on us or

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a Nick where we're like you have to talk. Shake your head. And so one of the things

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that you and I have talked about this too when there's churches who are like hey we're

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going to take this to the down to the letter in our like all right we're going to make

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sure women don't have the or wear head coverings when required. We're going to make sure men

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don't wear head coverings in church all this stuff. Like I actually have a certain amount

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of respect for that even though I think that's a misinterpretation. I have a certain amount

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of respect for that because they're not just saying we're going to take part of the story

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of should women should women have an authority role in church. They're saying we're going

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to take every passage that we see that talks about that and try to live that out. Right.

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And so I'm like I actually have a level of respect for that. Right. I think it's misinterpretation

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again but right. And also the question is even if you are following this are you going

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to have grace with people who disagree with you. Yeah. It's OK if you don't eat meat that

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was certain sacrifice to idols. Are you going to have grace with the people who do. Well

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take it more messianic messianic Christians. Yeah. Like where they still won't eat pork.

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Yeah. Right. Are they going to judge me for eating bacon. No most of them most of them

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won't. Yeah. Right. That's that's kind of what it what it comes down to it comes back

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down to that kind of the acts 15 I believe is when they're establishing I might have

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that chapter wrong but it's when they're establishing what do we need the Gentiles to follow. I

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was having a conversation like to this point where we're talking about like cultural issues

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that like Paul is just addressing a lot of cultural issues in this letter. Right. Yeah.

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And then how do you actually how do you live out Christ in this world where you have both

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Jew and Gentile. Yeah. But I was having a conversation with a messianic pastor friend

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of mine and he was talking about the weightier portions of the law which people get real

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uncomfortable with. But Jesus talks about it. Right. The weightier portions of the law

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being love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength and the second

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is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else that you do through the Bible

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is interpreted through those lenses. Yeah. And so he was talking to me because he still

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keeps kosher. Right. But he said if he gets invited to somebody's house for dinner and

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they don't realize what they're doing and they serve pork in their food he'll eat it

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and he'll he'll just be unclean like from his perspective because once again unclean

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doesn't mean sinful. Right. He'll just be unclean and because he believes that loving

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people is more important than observing not eating pork. Amen. Right. And he said so I

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take the weightier portion of the law now to the same thing you know in my life I have

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a regular practice that I observe Sabbath. Right. We rest we play we remember that God

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loves us. But there were days where people need help and they need somebody to show up.

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Yeah. The weightier the portion of law kicks in. Yes. I have to love people. Now what I'll

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say is if every week I'm violating Sabbath because I got to go I got to love people I'm

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probably not planning my week very well. Right. And I need to actually figure out how to plan

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my week better so that I'm intentional about my time with God. Yeah. But there are going

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to be occasions that come up and I'm like I need to love God more I love people more

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than I need a Sabbath this week. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Just on this last thing about hair because

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just if you contextual why it matters continuing after 13 and why you shouldn't quote things

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out of context says does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long

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hair is a disgrace to him but that if a woman has long hair is her glory for long hair is

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given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this we have no other

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practice nor do the other churches. So in other words we don't have a way that we legislate

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this. You got to figure it out among yourselves. Yeah. Like figure out what makes sense for

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you guys. Taking taking the individual culture into play. Right. You got it. You got to be

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able to do that. All right. So then we're going to jump over into Corinthians. First

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Corinthians 14 and he's been continuing this dialogue which by the way we're going to recommend

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this book. I recommended it a bunch of times but I always want to remember make sure people

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know to read this. Kenneth Bailey has a book called Paul the Mediterranean eyes and he

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pulls out the chiasmus of First Corinthians and talks about this mirroring text that Paul

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has throughout the entire book. It is 100 percent worth your time. And if you are not

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good in the details just read the summaries. Right. The summaries will still give you the

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idea of what's going on if you're not a details person. Yeah. Yeah. So First Corinthians 14

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now if you're familiar with 14 he's dealing with disorder and worship. Yes. I don't know

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if you've ever gone to a meeting where they they have no plan going in. It's it's really

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awkward actually you know because what ends up happening is like people get up and they

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start doing a piece of music and then pastors like I have a word so I'm going to come and

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talk right now. No communication walks up. Nobody knows what's going on and you maybe

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you're not even know what the song. Right. And somebody is is filled with the filled

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with the goodness and the in the time and they get a tambourine out and they start banging

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the tambourine out of time with what everybody else is playing. And then somebody has a word

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for the church that God's been speaking to them for the entire week and they get up and

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start shouting it from the stage. Right. Now any of these things may be completely appropriate

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and worship. But there is order. Right. And there's a spirit of order. Yeah. Paul is writing

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to a church that is currently disorganized. Yeah. Right. They have a lot of issues going

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on personally amongst members in their congregation. They have people coming in trying to install

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certain doctrines and that don't need to be in the church. There's a lot that's going

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on in here and there's not a lot of order. And so Paul's coming back in and he's like

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hey let's establish some order. And he's saying he's actually with all of chapter 14 he's

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like start here. Yeah. Like start here with your order. He's essentially dealing with

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an entire room of toddlers if we want to talk about this. Yeah. As Paul talks about learning

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how to get off the milk and go and eat. Yeah. So if we can even take it back to that context

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and realize that he is talking to babies. Right. Because once again they had the spirit

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fall and the church exploded. Right. This is the epicenter of what we're seeing is happening

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as these churches are starting to grow and you've got all these people excited and you've

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got you're now having messages where women are able to sit with the men in synagogue

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in a home wherever and they're now. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen and now

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they're getting to sit just like I'm sitting with you guys. Yeah. They're now sitting and

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hearing things and saying it doesn't matter if you're Greek doesn't matter if you are

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Jew doesn't matter if you eat pork you've got to figure it out for yourself. It doesn't

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you know and. The most important thing is that you learn how to love each other. Love

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in the middle of it. Because that's what's going to help you figure this unity out. Right.

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Is that you have genuine love for each other you'll figure it out. Right. And chapter 14

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comes off the back of chapter 13. Yeah. Where Paul is saying there's no greater thing than

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the love we have. Yeah. Yeah. No that's that's so good. Spencer your drummer. Yes. If I take

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a 12 year old and I give him two sticks and I say please go play drums and just as the

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spirit leads you. Yeah. What am I going to get. Chaos. Chaos. Noise. But if that same

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12 year old. Yeah they'll have fun. They'll have fun. And then let's say I had another

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kid a bass and I said go play as a spirit leads right and I said to another kid go sing

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and as a spirit leads. Right. Now all of them may be absolutely having a genuine experience

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of worship but together their chaos. Yeah. And so but what we do is we is we teach structure

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for the purpose of facilitating the spirit. Now the danger in that is what happens a lot

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of times especially in American church is that people start to worship the structure

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not the spirit. Let's play off the drum analogy just a little bit. Yeah. For you. So when

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you're playing drums each hand and each foot has a job. Yeah. Right. One job is not more

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important to another and depending how you use your hands and your feet you can create

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a wide variety of sounds. Yeah. So it's not just I mean just to play on to that like how

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you use your hands and feet you can create one thing that sounds very metalish rockish

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and you can change up to how it's used where it's more of a jazz folky sound. You change

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up to how it's used to where you're playing more Beatles style early rock whatever. Right.

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And so so with that said yes everything has a job but depending how you use your hands

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your feet can depend on the sound that you get one. And you've been playing for a really

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long time Spencer and I and Sarah we've done worship together as a team. Very rarely do

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I ask you for something specific. I said we need to build here do what's appropriate.

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Right. Just like fit into what's going on because you're listening in to what's going

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on in the entire body. Like music is actually just it's a great analogy of walking with

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the church because learning to play together. You know some harmony in harmony you know

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being on in the same key in the same key. Yeah. Did I did this in the timing. Did I

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ever tell you about when I was leading worship for the Alaska Baptist Convention. We changed

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keys in a practice but two people didn't show up for that practice and so they were there

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when we did it live. So we were playing in B and they were in A and we went through but

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the in ears weren't working right. So we couldn't hear each other very well. So I got through

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the first verse and I'm like I was like things do not sound right. Right. And so then I turned

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around I was like what key are you playing in there like a I was like we're in B now.

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So I turned to the church I said what we've done is we've just illustrated what it's like

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when the people of God are not on the same page. And we're gonna try again.

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So I said let's do that again. But now let's see what it sounds like when everybody's actually

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on this in the same key. You know but it was a joke but it's actually true. It's so true.

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We can literally be singing the same song in a different key. Yeah. And it's chaos.

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We can have the words in front of us. Yeah. And supposed to be saying the words. But if

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we are not in harmony together. Yeah. Yeah. So it's by the way learning to play music

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and continue with this analogy of the spirit is messy. It's very messy. Growing as a team

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is messy. I would suggest that if your church isn't a little messy. Yeah. There's probably

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not a lot of growth happening there. Oh 100 percent. Because growth is just a little bit

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messy. You have five kids. It's messy. It's very messy. What did you say that your house

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it looked like a tornado went through. It looks like a frat house. Yeah. A legit frat

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house where I wake up and I'm like I was not invited to this party last night. And now

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I'm cleaning up after this party that I was not invited to. So all of this conversation

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now let's get into 1 Corinthians 14. You were pointing out that men and women now are in

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the same service. But a lot of times the women don't necessarily know the refined Greek that's

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being spoken. Right. Right. So what happens when you go to a church service and you're

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listening to something in a different language. Let's back it up. Let's say you go to a church

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service and they start using a bunch of theological speak and you have no idea what's going on.

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Yeah. You know what I usually see is there's a little bit of titter chatter that goes on.

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Right. Now this is remembering all these things. Now Paul comes in here and says God is not

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a God of disorder but of peace as in all congregation of the Lord's people. So women should remain

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silent in churches. They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission as the law

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says. If they want to inquire about something they should ask their husbands at home for

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it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Now you can quote that out of

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context and people do and they literally don't let women speak the second they enter into

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the building. She's got something. You got something. You can go. I mean no. I'm sitting

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here thinking of we're just not reading these verses in context. Correct. Because earlier

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he just talked about women being part of the service and prophesying. I don't know if you

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guys have ever prophesied but you can't speak truth from your mouth without talking. Have

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you ever tried to speak without talking? I mean like ASL people I'm still going to count

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your hands as talking. Okay. You ever tried to talk without speaking? So clearly that's

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not what he's talking about. Now I have a friend who was a missionary in the Middle

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East and he said it was really interesting that even to this day you have the men are

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tend to be higher educated and the women tend to be lower educated just because of the way

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that their culture is built. And he said that you get to these places and the women still

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to this day when they're gathered together in a place like they'll start chitter-chattering

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it's like this dull roar moving through this area and you can't actually hear what the

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speaker is saying now. I'm dying right now because you know exactly what I'm talking

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about. I know exactly what you're talking about and truth be told Ben like this is the

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part that's really frustrating for me as a woman pastor is this is the stuff that I can't

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relate to personally. Yeah. I'm not a chitter-chatter woman. I never have been. I grew up most of

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my life in circles of men. All of the kids in my school were boys. I went through high

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school the majority of the ones I hung out with were guys because they were easier to

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be around less drama. You know the funny thing this verse actually has more to do with me

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sitting in a service than probably you. You would be nice and polite and quiet and be

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listening and I'd be like hey did you hear him say blah blah blah. Totally. That would

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be me. No Ben I've sat in meetings with you where you're talking to me and I'm looking

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at you and I'm like shut up dude he's talking. She's like first Corinthians 14 Benjamin.

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Listen. You know but like that that's that's. This is I mean this is so important because

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Paul is saying that God is not a god of chaos. He's a god of order and you know when we just

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sit on this one verse we could silence. I mean you could literally be telling the quiet

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woman like me who's sitting and saying I'm not sitting in chattering and I'm I want to

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listen I want to learn and you could silence women who have the gift of prophecy and I

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am one of those women. It is a gifting that I have and when this verse was spoken over

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me I was like I could never use my gift of prophecy. It's going to have to be a private

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gift of prophecy. I can only go to someone in private and say this and when I realized

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that God was saying actually Sarah when I give you words of knowledge I'm as a prophet.

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Yes it's for you but it's for my people. Right. And there are moments where I give you words

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of knowledge and I'm asking you just to give it to that person one on one. But this verse

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is so dangerous because it can literally silence and quench the spirit of God that has been

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poured out on his daughters. He says I have given words over my sons and daughters to

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prophesy and and wait where where does that verse come from. When he says that I will

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pour out the spirit of God and my sons and daughters with prophecy. It comes from Shavuot.

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It's from Amos. And why would he say that in the Old Testament? When wait when women

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don't have a say and they're just married off why would he say that in the Old Testament?

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Because that's always been his plan. And then why would Peter quote it? And why would Peter

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quote it saying since the beginning of time God's plan has been for my sons and daughters

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to prophesy. Yeah the other hard thing with this particular verse when people take it

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into context I was like if you really want to read it like literally does that mean that

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every woman who's not married just doesn't get her answers? Because it's only wives are

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supposed to ask their husbands. I was like so if you're not married you just not get

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answers? Yeah. Like he's dealing with something very specific and so this is why it's really

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dangerous when you when you weep a nice scripture. I was like for example let's just say that

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I had a daughter. I don't but if I had a daughter and she wanted and somebody wanted to marry

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her and I said listen you got to go get me 100 Philistine foreskins. So they were like

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we'll make it 200. They'll make it 200. Now if you've read the story of Saul and David

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you'll understand that. Like I was like I'm just quoting scripture at them and I'm quoting

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it contextually correct. Right. But we're completely missing the context. We can't like

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the other thing is we can understand somewhat understand context and still abuse scripture

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over people. Oh totally. Which is not what we're called to do the scripture. And so this

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is meant to draw us closer to Jesus and closer into relationship with God so that in that

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outpouring of our lives can then be the blessings. It can be blessings to others. And so. So

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I want to read the rest of that chapter because we stop there a lot of times where you'll

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say well we should be quiet. And this is the one that they pull out right. It says in 36

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or did the word of God originate with you. Or are you the only people is reached. If

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anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the spirit let them acknowledge

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that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. But if anyone ignores this they will

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themselves will be ignored. Therefore brothers and sisters. OK. Whenever there's a therefore

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what's there for therefore. It's referring to everything that came before. So this applies

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to both men and women if you want to speak. Be eager to prophesy and do not forbid the

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speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. Yes.

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Be eager to prophesy brothers and sisters. Be eager to. And if you're a non Pentecostal

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prophesy is going to be preaching for you. Right. That's the way you're going to interpret

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because you're speaking the word of God to people. Right. That's how that and I don't

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think that's a bad interpretation. I personally believe with some of my theology that prophecy

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is is wider than that. But it's at least that. Yeah. You know I was I was listening to you

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guys speak at a conference about a month ago where he was where he cracked a funny joke

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and he was like he's like you ever had a Baptist come up to you and was like hey you know I

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was reading scripture and you just came to my and I just wanted to share this with you.

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He's like yeah that's prophecy. Yeah. I was like yeah that's that's good. That's really

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good. That is by the way we will we will be getting into that in the next couple of weeks

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as we get into the the movement of the spirit which I believe we're actually going to have

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you back on one of those if possible. Yeah. I would love that. I think we talked about

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it. Yeah. The first time. Yeah. Well we'll determine with your schedule because you know

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reverends are really busy. So so I think we should jump over. Yes. Probably the most famous.

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This is the most famous by far. This is if it gets quoted if one verse gets quoted to

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disqualify women from ministry it is this verse and I think we've even addressed it

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twice in Q and A's and we're going to address it again. Yeah. So jumping over to First Timothy.

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Now before we get into 11 through 15 we need to set the stage a little bit. Timothy's in

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Ephesus. There's a lot of stuff going on. I have a sense the Temple of Aphrodite is

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there and so there was actually supposedly a lot of priestess and stuff from Aphrodite

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being coming to know Jesus and entering into the church. Right. So so so godly worship

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in that area was directed by women. Yes. Yes. That was very very common. Very common. Very

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common. The second thing we need to mention here with both the Timothy's letters is like

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listening to one side of a phone conversation. Yeah. We don't actually know what Timothy

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wrote to Paul. Yeah. And Paul is answering Timothy. Right. So there is there that is

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why I like a lot of Timothy was a set and Timothy is actually argued quite a bit is

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because like means this it means this means that and so I actually don't fully know what

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Paul's addressing here. And it's hard because I although Paul would probably likely expect

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this to be disseminated among the churches. Right. It was written to Timothy. Yeah. So

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even if I wrote if I wrote a letter to Spencer right there is likely things that I would

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say that he would know exactly what I meant. Right. Right. And so then when he went and

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gave the letter to other people he would explain what I meant by something that I said. You

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know for example if I was like you need to be with them 100 percent. Yeah. He'd be like

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oh yeah because we always say 100 percent on the podcast and you know blah blah blah

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you know like that would be an inside joke kind of thing. It's one side of a conversation.

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Yeah. And so in first Timothy to particular if you back all the way up to the beginning

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it says first of all I urge that supplications prayers intercessions and thanksgiving be

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made for all people. So he starts off by addressing everyone. Yep. OK. You jump down a little

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bit further and then he goes he says by the way that's also not just men and women that's

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Christians and non-Christians because he talks about kings and authorities. Yep. Yes. So

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everyone he's talking about everyone. And then he goes on and he says I desire that in every

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place that men should pray lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling. And then he goes

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into women. Right. Boy can we stop on men not praying without quarreling or being angry.

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Yes. So so you have something that's going on. We just got to paint this picture a little

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bit. You have something that's going on in Ephesus where men aren't stepping up like

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they're supposed to. Right. OK. And likely because they haven't had to. Yeah. You know

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because if if worship and leadership for spiritual stuff is typically led by the women and your

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job is to go fight wars guess what you're going to be a little aggressive. Yeah. So I have

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a right. So I have a pastor friend and what she what she always says is as as a leader

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in the church you do not want to fill every every need there is in the church because

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you're going to deprive somebody from the opportunity of serving and being blessed by

386
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,520
that. Oh good. It's good to say that again. So you as a leader in the church you do not

387
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,080
want to fill every role in the church because you will deprive somebody from the opportunity

388
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:46,360
of serving. There is some leader right now that just heard that word of knowledge and

389
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,800
I just want to tell you you need to sit in that for a second. Yeah. And for another conversation

390
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:57,480
another day the three of us right now could tell you woundings that we have because people

391
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,120
didn't know that about themselves and woundings we created. Yeah. Because we did not know

392
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,320
that about ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. And so a little side story to that there was a church

393
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,320
I was involved with for a while where they were like they're like OK you're a drummer

394
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,800
and we're establishing a youth worship team and you we need someone to drum and I was

395
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,320
like OK but I'm a leader and you need to find students. So I'm not going to fill that role.

396
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,080
I was like what I will do if you have students who want to learn how to drum I will teach

397
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,240
them how to drum and then they can start being built into that role. But I was like I'm not

398
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,520
going to fill that role for them. Right. Yeah. Right. We need to give somebody else the opportunity

399
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,600
to serve. Right. Sometimes that could have done but it was like no we need to give somebody

400
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:40,000
else the opportunity to serve too. Yeah. So then Paul starts getting into this conversation

401
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:46,320
about women. OK. Not wearing or any jewelry not putting your hair in certain ways not

402
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,880
wearing specific clothing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Basically he's saying we want you. We want

403
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,200
women to be defined. She's holding back her smirk. She is. I just want to let you guys

404
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:02,880
know I'm really sorry. And maybe this is just a it's it needs to be it. I'm going to speak

405
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:10,040
to a woman out there who's in a church where she is being squashed and silenced. I'll never

406
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:20,360
forget when my attire as a woman pastor was the primary bone of contention and leadership.

407
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:26,800
Yeah. And I would say that as someone who's journeyed with you guys now for at least what

408
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:32,480
six maybe 10 years been longer than Spencer for the most part the person you ran into

409
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:38,280
at the grocery store Saturday morning Sunday. I'm pretty consistent right. And how I present

410
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:47,240
myself and I'll never forget when the topic was how I was being showy. I was trying to

411
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:54,920
prove something that I was trying to draw attention to myself and it was coming from

412
00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:02,720
the elders. Yeah. And I was just like Lord I don't know what to do. Like I believe in

413
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,640
a level of modesty and there are times where I've come out and I've asked my husband and

414
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,900
my is this OK. And he's and he's like Sarah you are totally good because I'm going you

415
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:17,800
are my headship. You're my covering. So if I ever ever check and I don't feel good you're

416
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,560
my covering. So I'm going to come to you and vice versa and vice versa. And I'll never

417
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:29,280
forget that morning I I was given pearls right before my wedding from my husband and I grabbed

418
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:35,000
those pearls and I put those on my neck and I went and led worship because I had been

419
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:41,320
through hell with the elders talking about how I was trying to draw attention to myself

420
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:47,120
and I loved getting all of the attention of people looking at me and I was dressing for

421
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:55,280
people to look at me and I was like are you kidding me. And I wore those pearls with just

422
00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:01,480
a sense of this is what you're going to get caught up in. Right. We were talking with

423
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,520
with Jamie. I mentioned that a lot of times women are held to a stricter or a double standard.

424
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,720
I was like because we don't give a hard time to men who wear a sharp a sharp tie or a big

425
00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:16,160
suit. You know I mean like when they're dressing up or when they're rocking skinny jeans or

426
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,480
right. Well I shouldn't sometimes do. I give Nick a hard time about skinny jeans. But he

427
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,960
said pretty soon I'm going to start wearing skinny jeans. I said listen Nick all jeans

428
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:30,760
I wear skinny jeans because I got big legs. So it's funny because just you know it's it's

429
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,000
not actually that's not just a gender based thing. So in ministry I don't know. You'll

430
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,800
find this ironic because like what it's interesting when people who are in authority with you

431
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:45,320
don't know you. So I was I was talking and I had a postural support team and somebody

432
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,400
made mention they said I always feel like you're trying too hard that you're always

433
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,880
talking about the Bible that you're always talking about God and that you're like you're

434
00:36:53,880 --> 00:37:01,520
like building these things up and like we just want you to be you. And I'm like do you

435
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,720
do you know me. Because I feel like maybe you don't because if you spent any time with

436
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:11,600
me it's it's how long how long do I go without talking about the Bible or something at some

437
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,800
point. Not long. It's not long. I was like and you know usually it's a it's a joke or

438
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:22,080
it's a sarcastic comment or a cool thing that I read or something. I was like but it's very

439
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:27,760
authentically me. Yeah. But but for them they're like well you're being being showing and a

440
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,800
lot of and what I've kind of found is a lot of times it has more to do with the people

441
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,920
than it does with you. Yeah. I remember there was also a church that I served at which was

442
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:41,160
incredibly unhealthy where one of the deacons talked about they were talking about my wife

443
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:46,920
who is incredibly modest and that she dresses inappropriately and he can see things. I

444
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:54,920
was like well you could also not look. You could control your eyes. But I going back

445
00:37:54,920 --> 00:38:02,800
to are we doing these things in love. I appreciate you Ben saying that because as a husband and

446
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,440
as a side note just for the listeners I love the fact that when we were getting ready to

447
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:11,160
record and we were all sitting around joking Ben was like I got to get going because I

448
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,320
have to go get my kids. I promised Tara I would be somewhere. That's the man that I

449
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:22,920
get to serve in ministry with who has not seen his place in ministry as a higher level

450
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:28,200
but instead he's a co-laborer with his wife. Side note and also my wife is a deacon so

451
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:34,640
technically she breaks me in the church. It's true. It's true. It's pretty great. I love

452
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,800
it. I love it. But I want to go back to I appreciate how you're wanting to stand in

453
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:48,180
the gap but I also have a role as a woman in loving men who are struggling with this

454
00:38:48,180 --> 00:38:55,240
co-equality. Oh 100 percent. I know we talked about earlier about the head coverings and

455
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:59,920
all those things but there is a level that I also have to make sure that I'm not distracting

456
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:06,440
you guys. There was wisdom that Paul was giving that when he was saying to cover your head

457
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:12,080
it was unheard of for the Jews to be around women with shaved heads. That was associated

458
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:19,520
to paganism and if that beautiful woman who had a shaved head had a word of knowledge

459
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,280
and it could have been received better if she had just covered it in love with her brothers

460
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:30,480
was that hurting her? Listen I've had to come to that place. And you make a good point because

461
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,160
let's say I'm invited to an Amish community to preach. Yeah. I'm not going to whip out

462
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,740
my iPad and start talking to them right? Right. Because this is staying at home. This is staying

463
00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:46,080
at home. And we're going to talk from a physical binding right? Because I'm recognizing where

464
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:52,160
I'm going you know? And that's completely appropriate to do. And what Paul is saying

465
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:58,000
is know where you're at because the gospel is more important than your feelings. And

466
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,760
the gospel is more important than your preferences. What he's not saying is that you should do

467
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,640
these things everywhere like carte blanche because they don't apply everywhere. Right

468
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,720
but he's saying you have to personally take this before God. Yeah. It's got to be do it

469
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:17,080
how many times have you said it's for your choosing? Yeah. Do what you will. Because

470
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,160
if I got like a good example is if I got invited to lead worship at a Bible Belt church I'm

471
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,320
probably not wearing a hat to worship. No. I will never forget the time I got asked to

472
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:35,120
lead worship in a traditional church and I put on a skirt. I put on a sweater. Yep. Low

473
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,960
heels. And I left that church and went to a gathering at my church and everyone walked

474
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,800
in and they're like wow what funeral were you at? I was like these are church clothes

475
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,280
guys? Yeah because depending on where you go like I put on a tie. I put on a jacket

476
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,280
because it's appropriate because what I don't want them to I don't want them to miss the

477
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,680
message because of what I'm wearing. Right. I want I am wanting to be a vessel that is

478
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:06,920
used and I'm wanting to love you guys. I will not walk into a community of old people and

479
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:12,200
gladly show my tattooed sleeve. Right. I will cover that not because I'm ashamed of that

480
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:19,800
but because I just want I want them to get to know me before they have to then sit and

481
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,480
wrestle with the work guys asked me to bring. And that ties back into actually the first

482
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:30,800
Timothy 2 passage here where the reason Paul is saying this to the church is because Temple

483
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,520
of Aphrodite was actually had a lot to do with prostitution and sex. Right. And so when

484
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,360
you had these priestesses who were known for things like prostitution sex or organizing

485
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,760
that. Or these big ornate clothing. Yep. Coming over into the Christian church. Yep. Paul

486
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,160
is saying I don't want you to be a distraction. Right. Right. But he's also doing that for

487
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:55,120
them as well. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like he's also letting them go look he's letting these

488
00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:02,200
priestesses know how you have been taught to worship. Yeah. Has all been about the outward

489
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,920
what you look like. But God is wanting to get on the inside and we can read that and

490
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:12,120
go this is he's just admonishing the women and trying to teach the men in that community.

491
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:17,680
He's actually telling the women hey you're more than your jewelry. You're more than your

492
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:23,600
box. And well I was going to say to your point what is so let's read that actually the most

493
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,000
controversial bit because now understanding everything coming into this let's read that

494
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:32,480
controversial bit. Yeah. So it says let women learn quietly with all submissiveness. This

495
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,560
is a new living translation by the way. This is actually this is in the ESV. Wow. I'm actually

496
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,480
reading the ESV right now. OK. Let all women learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do

497
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:47,040
not permit women to teach or exercise authority over men. Rather she should remain quiet for

498
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:53,320
Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and

499
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:59,880
became the transgressor. Yet she will be saved through through childbearing if she continues

500
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:04,580
in faith love holiness self-control. So some of you have never heard that verse before

501
00:43:04,580 --> 00:43:09,480
and we will talk about that maybe in a Q&A or something like that because it definitely

502
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,900
doesn't mean what you think it means. So we're just going to deal with the permitting woman

503
00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:19,280
to have authority. So this actually this verse actually is not saying is not telling women

504
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:24,240
to not teach. Yeah. And let me get into that a little bit. So it actually talks about authority

505
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:28,120
in verse 12. It says I do not have to teach or have authority over men and people will

506
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,680
be like well it says teach right there. So yeah yes but the word authority that is used

507
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,080
there is that he does not permit women to abuse or misuse their authority that they

508
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,720
may have over men. Right. So that Greek word is only used that one time in all scripture.

509
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:44,240
That's the only time Paul uses that Greek word. So then so then the question might come

510
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:48,440
up somebody might ask well how do we know that that's what that word means. Well because

511
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,720
there were other texts written around that time that use the exact same words so we can

512
00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:56,840
contextually see how is this word used in regular conversation. Yeah. Right. So what

513
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:03,020
Paul is saying here is he's saying hey when these women come over come over and are entering

514
00:44:03,020 --> 00:44:09,520
into the fold don't let them abuse their authority like they did in their previous life. And

515
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,040
specifically what word I'm going to use is called usurp. Yeah. In other words you take

516
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:18,200
over authority because you're a woman. Now we talked about this in the Q&A and I'm going

517
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,240
to say this again because I think it bears repeating. Yeah. What Paul is saying is if

518
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:29,000
God has called a man to be a pastor of a church and you come in as a woman in the in in Ephesus

519
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,760
and because you're used to being an authority you charge of worship because you're used

520
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:39,280
to being that. And you say well because I am a woman I am going to upend the man and

521
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,800
take authority. Yes. Paul's like nope you're not going to do that. Who God calls is who's

522
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,280
actually going to be an authority. I don't permit women to come and submit usurp authority

523
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:54,480
over a man. Now the problem is what have we done with this verse. We have taken it and

524
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,240
we've said OK that means men get to have all authority over women. So when God calls a

525
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:03,320
woman he puts a call on a woman like Reverend Sarah over here or soon to be Reverend Sarah.

526
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:11,400
I'll say that correctly. And somebody comes in they say well because I am a man I'm going

527
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:18,560
to take the authority that was given to her by God and her pastors her leaders her denomination.

528
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:26,080
I'm going to usurp it and take it because of my gender. Congratulations you played yourself.

529
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,960
Yeah. You just did the exact thing that Paul just told you not to do. Yeah. The further

530
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:36,600
on to my point where it's actually isn't saying that women shouldn't that women have to sit

531
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:41,080
under authority under authority of man in the church. If you go jump over to chapter

532
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,400
three it talks about husbands roles of husbands and then it goes into church leadership. Did

533
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,960
you know the word that for that they use there for the church leader is overseer. People

534
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:56,320
assume there's a male connotation to it because it says husbands at first. All right. And

535
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,200
so we've inserted this male connotation to it but it really just says overseers. Right.

536
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:04,120
And while he's been going to be husbands and wives men and women so then to assign a gender

537
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:09,520
to the overseer is probably a little misleading a little misleading. Yeah. And so so we just

538
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,480
want to be really careful with that. So but what Paul is actually saying here is he's

539
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,640
saying is he's telling these women that are coming into the church you're no longer your

540
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:22,920
old self. Right. Right. Right. He it's a gospel presentation saying you're no longer your

541
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:29,000
old self. You are now in the fold. So you don't need to dress in the in the ways that you

542
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:34,920
did. You don't need to lead in the ways that you did. Right. I want you just to sit learn

543
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,880
and become part of this fold. And I think too he's also telling these these women who

544
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:47,060
have been wounded I want you to learn what it feels like to now be rest to rest and let

545
00:46:47,060 --> 00:46:54,000
you be poured into. Yeah. And that's the saddest thing that if we don't read these these scriptures

546
00:46:54,000 --> 00:47:01,960
through the correct context we have silenced so many women and told them just to sit down

547
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:07,960
and shut up because of your gender. You know the hard thing is is that a lot of times when

548
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:13,400
I see that especially here to his extreme it occurs in abusive situations where there

549
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:18,220
is extremely amount of like either physical mental spiritual or emotional abuse that's

550
00:47:18,220 --> 00:47:23,480
happening in a church not to pick on a specific person but when you have the church of Mars

551
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,920
Hill because it's been very public with what happened in Mars Hill there was a systematic

552
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,840
oppression of people that was happening in there and God has gone through and he's redeemed

553
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,920
a lot of what's going on in there because God's awesome. He takes our messes and makes

554
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,560
them beautiful. Right. You know I got to go to school with one of the elders. Yeah. Mars

555
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:46,440
Hill. There's actually a great book by Scott McKnight called A Place Called Tove where

556
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,160
he addresses and talks to some of the people who dealt with like and what does it look

557
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:55,000
like to actually find redemption in the midst of chaos. Like those those mentalities like

558
00:47:55,000 --> 00:48:02,880
they they tend to foster abuse rather than freedom. Agreed. And I know the biggest thing

559
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:09,320
that I struggle with is like we need to be free but like Paul's understanding of freedom

560
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:16,920
is our freedom is the ability to do everything but choosing to lower ourselves to other people.

561
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,480
Not thinking more of ourselves than others. Yeah. That's freedom is the ability to do

562
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,200
something and choosing not to. Yeah. This comes back to a few weeks ago I talked about

563
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,320
this idea of gentleness or meekness. Gentleness. You can't be gentle unless you're capable

564
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:38,320
of not being gentle. And so choosing to be gentle is an intentional choice with the ability

565
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:44,720
to do more. Exactly. Yeah. And so it's actually you know this whole idea of being humble is

566
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,840
actually like bending the knee to if I'm taller than you I bend the knee to be at the same

567
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,600
height as you to look you eye to eye. Yeah. Like metaphorically because it would be very

568
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:58,520
hard for me to bend a knee to get to the same height as you. That'd be the big bed for me.

569
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:08,720
I'm very tall. Yeah. So there is area area. I'm bringing us back. Bring us back to first

570
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:15,000
time of the year a little bit. So jump over to chapter four for just a brief moment. Yeah.

571
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:20,600
Chapter four verse six. He's talking to both brothers and sisters. OK. And then later on

572
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,920
you jump down in a section where he says OK brothers and sisters. In verse 11 he says

573
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:36,600
command and teach these things to both brothers and sisters. Yeah. Yeah. It's why parsing

574
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,600
the Bible is a really important thing. So we we have spent some time pulling this. I

575
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,440
encourage you to actually spend more time pulling this part than what we did. BT Roberts

576
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:49,720
Ordaining Women. Do you have any book recommendations for people. No. Come back to me and I'll have

577
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:53,480
to. The Making of Biblical Womanhood by I forget who it's by but I'll put it in the

578
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:58,280
show notes. Gifted to Lead by Nancy Beach. That's a really good book. Yes. What Paul

579
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,880
really said about women by Lauren Cunningham. Yeah. Both Paul through Mediterranean eyes

580
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,120
and Jesus through Middle Eastern eyes by Kenneth Bailey have great sections on that. Yeah.

581
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:11,720
So I'm just I'm recommending a few sources like just to actually take a look at contextually

582
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:16,800
what's going on. You need to spend the time. So and the reason I say that is Paul's letters.

583
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,840
We tend to read at face value because we think we know what he's talking about. My problem

584
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,480
is Peter makes mention he says Peter the guy who walked with Jesus for three and a half

585
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:30,240
years was leading the church for 14 years before Paul started writing letters. Right.

586
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:35,880
And you know had gone through Torah school and you know he like the apostle Peter guy

587
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,760
guy knows a little bit about scripture. Knows this stuff. And he's like yeah Paul's kind

588
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:45,960
of hard to understand. Right. Now if Peter the apostle thinks that he walked with Jesus

589
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,920
for three years we should maybe have a little bit more humbleness when we say this is clearly

590
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:56,000
what Paul meant when we translate his language from Greek to English. Yeah. It's plain English.

591
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,720
Obviously it was originally plain Greek. And apparently to Peter it wasn't that plain.

592
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:06,520
So yeah. The other spot where it talks about you know women's role in church and and quote

593
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:12,800
unquote limiting it is in Titus. Yeah. And what happens a lot in Titus is where he says

594
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:17,920
he's talking to Titus about appointing elders and deacons and he makes mention he'll say

595
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:22,840
like the husband of one wife and like he'll go through and do a lot of these things. And

596
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:29,000
because there's a gender applied it's he we look at as like only as. But like you're dealing

597
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:34,680
once again with this overseer thing and frequently in Titus once again it's brothers and sisters

598
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:40,000
teach these things. Yep. Right. And the one spot where people often pull out of context

599
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,760
where where they try to limit the woman's role is where it says women can teach other

600
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,680
women and children but they shouldn't teach a man. One thing I always push back on this

601
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:53,040
I was like OK so what are you defining as manhood. Yeah. Because you're talking about

602
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:57,200
a culture where manhood comes out of much younger age than what we define it. Right.

603
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:03,320
Right. So culturally manhood would come what 1314. Yeah. Right. At the Bar Mitzvah. Yeah.

604
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:11,320
Right. So culturally manhood would come 1314. Right. And we and our culture in the U.S.

605
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:19,560
we view manhood more 1820 to 21 right. Right. Right. So at what point if you're saying

606
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,240
that women can only teach women or children at what point are you defining manhood if

607
00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:25,880
you're defining it by biblical standard are you saying women are excluded from teaching

608
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,200
any one junior high and older. Right. Which that's a whole nother can of worms or are

609
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,920
you defining it by cultural standards which if we're defined by cultural standards then

610
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,880
are we quote unquote going against scripture. Right. Right. And so this is where you have

611
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:44,960
to go back to the context. And again Titus like Timothy is written to Titus. Yeah. Right.

612
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:52,120
It wasn't a corporate letter who is also in Crete. Yes. Which is not Ephesus. Yep. Crete

613
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:58,280
is not Ephesus. It's not Corinth. It's not Corinth. It's not Rome. It's not Galatia.

614
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:03,440
So we it's not Thessaloniki. Let's just let's just take Alaska for example. Yeah. OK. Because

615
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,600
that's where we're at. Southeast Alaska is very different than mainland Alaska. Yeah.

616
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,240
Right. And even you get into different communities in mainland Alaska. They're very different.

617
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:16,360
Go to the illusion chain. It's way different. Way different. Yeah. All right. You you go

618
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:21,480
to different communities in Southeast Alaska. They're very different. Now what Paul does

619
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:28,200
do is he gives them guardrails. Yeah. These are guardrails to have a structure. But once

620
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:32,720
again what happened the structure is meant to facilitate the movement of the spirit.

621
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:37,560
Yeah. And when you start worshipping the structure rather than what the spirit that feeds the

622
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:42,120
structure you end up with a lot of divisive things which by the way I don't know if you

623
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:47,680
saw this at the end of Titus he makes mention he says avoid foolish controversies and genealogies

624
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:54,120
and arguments and quarrels about the law because these are unprofitable and useless. Well more

625
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,600
than a divisive person once and then more than a second time after that have nothing

626
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,840
to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful and they are self

627
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:11,560
condemned. So Paul is saying I love you guys. So Paul is saying he's like there's this there's

628
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:16,680
these controversies but he's also like OK don't dwell on them. Yeah. And like especially

629
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:22,160
we're talking about quarrels. It is fine to sit down and have a conversation with people.

630
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:28,400
Absolutely. Where we're called to. My suspicion is Sarah I mean you can speak to this in your

631
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:34,680
growing up in biblical womanhood and pastorhood. Do people come and just have a conversation

632
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:41,280
with you. No that's not usually the way that it comes. No and I think this is this is the

633
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:50,360
part that is just heartbreaking. Yeah. Is I I'll sit in rooms with other female pastors

634
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:58,960
and I'm just so thankful for it because I realize that I'm not alone. But so often if

635
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:05,960
you have a woman in ministry in your church setting I would just encourage you to just

636
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:14,000
ask her from time to time. What's it like being a female in ministry because this is

637
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:25,720
obviously an issue that God breathed inspiration into Paul and Timothy and Titus and he breathed

638
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:31,360
in inspiration to all of those letters that were written to those churches for those situations.

639
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:37,880
But there's a reason why we're still reading them today. Yeah. As Jesus knew God knew since

640
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:46,420
the beginning since the garden that women's voice was going to be an issue. And he was

641
00:55:46,420 --> 00:55:51,820
preparing us to deal with this. And there are women right now who have literally been

642
00:55:51,820 --> 00:55:58,160
told to sit down be quiet don't speak. You can only lead in kids ministry. You can't

643
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:03,680
lead any farther than junior high. You can't lead any farther than you know like. Or your

644
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:11,120
only value is producing your only value children which by the way was the way of Egypt. Yeah.

645
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:19,080
So slavery. Yeah. There's this lady that I know where she was a youth ministry director

646
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:25,080
at a church. Right. So essentially she had the youth pastor. Did awesome work like more

647
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:29,440
and more kids will come to their youth group. Kids are coming to know Jesus. It was amazing.

648
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,840
The church was like OK we need to hire a pastor but we can't hire her. But they basically

649
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,520
took her job and was like OK because we need to hire a pastor make sure it's a man. But

650
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:42,080
they basically just changed the title of job. Yeah. She and a bunch of other people ended

651
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,900
up leaving the church because they're like why are you are you discounting the work that

652
00:56:45,900 --> 00:56:50,400
she just did. And are you just trying to play the like well we label her as a ministry director

653
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:55,960
and that's OK. Right. It's yeah. You know the hard thing about all that and like growing

654
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:00,200
up where there's like in your position where people come and they they're really harsh

655
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:04,840
with you they're not coming to just talk. The hard thing is is like with who was Spencer

656
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:09,200
I who had to come and have a conversation with you about something we saw in your ministry

657
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,920
you would actually receive what we have to say because we're not coming to beat you up.

658
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:18,200
We're coming to make you better. Right. You can't correct without connection. Right. Say

659
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:22,400
that again. You can't correct without connection. We're gonna make that into a t shirt because

660
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,520
that's good. Yeah. I don't know if you stole that from somebody but that just that we're

661
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,280
gonna we're gonna put a Sarah Harney had just came out. Yeah that's that's good. You can't

662
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:35,480
you cannot correct without connection. That's just that's because I was sitting reliving

663
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:42,400
a conversation with an elder and critiques. Yeah. Yeah. This goes back to speaking truth

664
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,120
and love which we've talked about is you have to be in fellowship in unity and then you

665
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:53,040
can speak truth and love. Yeah. Yeah. So there's kind of four questions that I had and I don't

666
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:57,480
and these are meant to just kind of be open ended for people to go do their own digging

667
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:02,440
on. Yeah. All right. We've covered we've covered a decent amount of ground here but one is

668
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,120
when I talked about it at the beginning a little bit first one define can you define

669
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:12,680
what a pastor is. All right. Okay. Because you can't tell somebody they can or cannot

670
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:17,680
be something you cannot define. Hundred percent. Hundred percent. All right. Can you define

671
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:25,600
what the church is. Okay. Because if you're telling someone like hey you can't be a pastor

672
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:31,160
of a church. Okay. What's a church. If the church is a body of believers and you have

673
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:37,360
someone leading a group of five or six people in a house is that a church. Yeah. Right.

674
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:42,640
Then if you're gonna say yes then okay. How do you define leadership of that. Yeah. Okay.

675
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:49,880
Or if you say no then that's another question. Define preaching. Yeah. Because this is this

676
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,840
is the soapbox I get on a little bit when people are like women can't preach. I was

677
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:58,560
like what is preaching. Yeah. Proclaiming the gospel right. We're proclaiming the gospel

678
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:04,440
of Jesus Christ to those around us. So if you're saying a woman says proclaims the gospel

679
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:10,400
to one person in the grocery store is she preaching. So are you telling her that she

680
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:18,560
cannot share her faith. Because if we're defining because unfortunately we've just got to find

681
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:22,880
preaching as proclaiming the gospel. We're gonna try really hard not to answer this because

682
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:28,280
both Sarah and I have some ideas. Yes. Yes. So because we want you guys to do some digging.

683
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:33,260
Do some digging. And then the last one is last last question that you should really

684
00:59:33,260 --> 00:59:38,520
do some digging on is what are the levels of authority in church. How does that compare

685
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,880
to the Bible. How's that compared to the Bible. Yeah. Because they're not the same thing.

686
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,680
They're not the same thing. Yeah. Right. And so those are some questions for you to go

687
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:51,280
do some digging on and write us some emails on. So as we're closing out this episode I

688
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:56,240
want to just mention something. If you have a verse that you feel like comes into this

689
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:00,720
perspective that we didn't cover. Yeah. Send it to us we'll talk about it in a Q&A. Right.

690
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,280
Because we did not cover everything. These were like the biggest ones that we can find.

691
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:09,320
If you have questions or push back on our commentary send us a send us an email. We're

692
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:14,120
OK with that. Yeah. Like we invite people we disagree with all the time. Yeah. We interact

693
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:18,960
with them and we have a lot of people listen from various backgrounds Pentecostal to reformed.

694
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:23,600
Yeah. And it's OK for us to disagree. It's not OK for us to not have unity because we

695
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:31,080
disagree. Finally if our listeners I'd like you to on a regular basis pray for Reverend

696
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:35,880
Sarah. Pray for the pray for the women pastors that you know that are serving in this capacity.

697
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:40,120
Even if you think they're wrong. Yeah. I want you to pray that God would fill them with

698
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:46,360
the Holy Spirit give them guidance and enlighten them to follow his path. Yes. Because even

699
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:53,220
if you think they're wrong that's what you should be praying. That God is going to step

700
01:00:53,220 --> 01:00:58,640
into their life and reveal himself more fully and then trust the Holy Spirit to do his work.

701
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:05,000
Amen. Amen. Sarah we're really glad you're here. You deal with our obnoxious sarcastic

702
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:11,000
natures. Do you have anything to say before we bounce. No I just obviously yes I do. I

703
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:17,680
said no and obviously I do. No let me say something. I want to say thank you Ben and

704
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:24,200
Spencer for just allowing us to scratch the surface of this and and to do it in a way

705
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:30,480
that is loving not only to your sisters but I know is loving to our brothers and at the

706
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:36,400
heart of this is the fact that I realize that you guys are just inviting all of us to to

707
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:42,160
see the heart of God. Thank you so much. And his scriptures are his love letter to his

708
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:47,720
people and we get to read it together. So thank you guys. Thank you. There she is taking

709
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:56,760
us to church right there. All right. Till next time. Till next time. And that's a wrap

710
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:01,160
for today's episode of Love and Context. We hope you enjoyed this engaging conversation

711
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:05,440
and gained valuable insights into the powerful message of love within the Bible. We'd love

712
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:09,880
to hear from you and continue the conversation. Connect with us by sending us your questions

713
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:17,640
thoughts and suggestions to loveandcontext.gmail.com. We greatly appreciate your feedback and ideas

714
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:22,360
for future episodes. Stay connected with us on social media for updates, behind the scenes

715
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:27,120
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716
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:31,160
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717
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:35,640
with the latest episodes and join our growing community. Thank you for being part of the

718
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:40,720
Love and Context family. Remember, love is at the heart of it all. Until next time, keep

719
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:46,200
seeking wisdom, embracing love and living out your faith in the context of today's world.

720
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:50,640
You know, I was thinking that I was thinking they're going to judge me on the basis of

721
01:02:50,640 --> 01:03:17,640
my lip health.