Season two of Love in Context podcast welcomes you. Get ready for engaging unscripted conversations
with your hosts, Ben and Spencer. Our mission remains unchanged to explore the Bible through
the powerful lens of love. In this new season, we'll embark on a journey together, unearthing
fresh insights and gaining deeper understanding of how we can love God and live out our faith
in practical ways. So let's dive into this season of Love in Context, where love in the
context of the Bible intersect to transform our lives. Welcome to the Love in Context
podcast. We were God and now we're back. Ben had a little too much coffee this morning.
A little too much. It's probably underselling how much coffee I've had today. She went to
the coffee shop and I was like, as many shots as you can fit in this cup. I was like, how
many shots do you normally put in there? And I was like, double it. Double it. Yeah. We
are once again joined by the soon to be Reverend Sarah Harney. And we are so excited you're
here. If you have a regular listener, you know that Sarah is a pastor out at Stax Altangas
Lai's church, which is also where Dominique, who was on here a few weeks ago, is also serving
as well. Correct. So we're glad you're back. My favorite comment that I got was somebody
listened to your first episode when you're here with Deuteronomy and they said, boy,
I really like that woman pastor on there. So it was a good one. Yeah, it was a good one.
And it was kind of a weird way to say it, but he's completely supportive of people.
So like he was completely supportive, but he really liked you having him here. Cool.
I love it. Today we're going to get into the nitty gritty. There are four sections of scripture
that kind of speak against women being pastors. So we thought it would be good to have Sarah
on here to talk about those with us. I think we were titling this one controversial verses.
Yes. Yes. And so we're going to, so those, we're going to kind of dive into those, those
scriptures today. So we should preface this. I want to preface this a little bit. We're
just saying a couple of things like one, when we're talking about women in ministry or women
pastors, you really need to define what a church is. You need to define what preaching
is and you need to define what shepherding looks like. And if you can't define those
three things, maybe go back, maybe go read some scripture, define those before you enter
into the conversation. All right. Because you need to take the core principles of being
a pastor and you need to be able to find that. Yeah. So, so these scriptures were actually
me talking about today are actually a lot of scriptures that try to speak against this.
And there are scriptures that people try to use to speak against this, speak against women
being pastors. Not, not that anybody in the church would ever be accused of weaponizing
scripture against people, right? It never happened. It never happened. And it doesn't,
it happens by the way with a lot more than just these verses. Yeah. So, so Sarah, I'm
sure you've heard these, I'm sure people have said these verses to you. I have friends who,
I have other friends who are women pastors who they've had these verses weaponized against
them as well. And so we just want to talk about them. We want to take some time to put
them in their context. Right. We're not going, we're not going to take a particular denomination
side or anything like that. We're just going to put these in their context and go from
that. So that's all good. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Sounds good. I'm with you, Spence.
You are? Yeah. Are you? I'm with you. Ben's letting me do more talking cause he knows
this is a soap box for me. So it's going to be great. So there's also the thing that for
whatever reason, when we have a guest, you talk a lot less and so like I gotta get Spence
to talk. Well, you all do fine. Like when there's a guest on, you all do fine. I'm like,
ah, you're doing great. I don't need you to jump in on this. Pretty soon this is going
to be the love and context podcast with Ben and guests. Like, no, we don't want to do that.
Yeah. And then Spencer will be like, uh-huh. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. A hundred percent. So
first passage we're going to look at is first Corinthians 11, three through 12. Ben, do
you want to read that? Yeah. And I actually want to, so it's 11, three through 12. But
just so you know, just prior to this, Paul has gone into this conversation about should
you eat meat offered to idols? Should you not eat meat offered to idols? And about learning
how to be conscious of people's personal preferences and how they serve God and that it's not a
big deal. If you don't believe that you're serving an alternate God by eating this meat,
then you can eat the meat, but also don't go into somebody else's house who does feel
that way and do that. Right? So he says, uh, he makes a same, he says, don't cause anyone
to stumble. This is in 32 of 10, uh, whether Jews, Greeks, or the church of God, even as
I try to please everyone in every way, for I am not seeking my own good, but the good
of many so that they may be saved. Follow my example as I follow Christ. So this is all
about learning what's going on culturally and behaving appropriately to the people around
you. Right? I follow the example of Christ. I praise you for remembering me and everything
and holding to the traditions just as I pass them on to you. Then this first comes in,
but I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ and the head of every
woman is man and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his
head covered dishonors his head, but the woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered
dishonors her head. It is the same as having her head shaved for if a woman does not cover
her head and she might as well have her have her hair cut off, but it is a disgrace for
a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. A
man ought not to cover his head says he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the
glory of man for man did not come from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created
for woman, but woman for man. It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority
over her own head because of the angels. Nevertheless in the Lord, women are not independent of
man nor is man independent of woman for as woman came from man so also man is born of
woman, but everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves is a proper for woman to pray
to God with her head uncovered. Yeah. That verse seems very specific right? Yeah. When
I'm looking at that I'm like okay there's a lot of there's a lot that Paul's saying
but he's being very specific about head coverings. Yeah. Okay. What he's not saying is he's not
saying women can't. Correct. In this passage. That's one thing he's not saying, but the
biggest thing I actually want to talk about here is when Paul is writing about men and
women in the context of marriage because that's in marriage and prayer which is kind of context
here. Do you think Paul doesn't understand etzer connecto? Yeah I would say that he probably
definitely understands etzer connecto. Okay. Because I know where you're leading with that.
Like at the beginning he's like woman or woman came from man not man for woman then he's
like later oh by the way man comes from woman all the time. Right? So maybe you should judge
for yourselves what's appropriate in your circumstance. Yeah. Yeah. So when Paul's writing
this he clearly knows that woman was made as a suitable helper for man just and that
language that he uses is the same for God being our helper. Right? So he knows that
there's this equal submission that's going on between man and woman. Yeah. That when
sin came into the world it was woman ate and then man ate and then sin entered. Right?
And so he knows there's an equality here. So then you have to ask the question why is
he saying these things. Right. We haven't talked a lot about the city of Corinth. We've
talked about Ephesus before but in this case he's talking to the city of Corinth and Corinth
is a there's a lot going on in Corinth. Like he has to write a lot of like things of correction
but he also has to write to a city that is exploding with the Spirit of God. Yeah. Right.
So it's messy but there's some crazy things going on because he has to talk to them about
tongues and healings and prophesying and church order and all these different things because
it's exploding with the Spirit of God and there's like tons of things that are happening
that are like supernatural and people are excited and they're and they're bringing them
back to Christ but they're not necessarily like it's messy. Right. Because God's pouring
out his spirit on all flesh. And let's have grace because there's I was talking to somebody
about a friend of mine who like this friend will be like Spencer said he had a huge impact
on my life and I was like you know what it was Sarah. Sarah said this. Yeah. Somebody
else but it was one of those things is during a season my life where I'm like I am really
glad that the Lord had an impact on his life despite me. Right. Right. Like because some
of the things I was saying to him I was like looking back at my that was not accurate correct
at all. Right. And the Lord still had an impact. Right. So there was still movement that was
going on. So we like we need to have grace when when we have people coming to know Jesus
and them not knowing what to do. Yeah. And Paul's not particularly angry in this letter.
He's just dealing he's because he heard from he heard from a prominent family in the church
that there were issues. Right. And he'd say hey we're confused about this. We're arguing
about this. And so he's writing this letter. He's like hey let's let's clear up some things.
Right. Yeah. You're not a follower of Peter or a follower of Paul or a follower of Paul
as you're a follower of God. Right. You're a follower of Christ. There isn't a spirit
that prophesies in a spirit that heals a spirit that you know does this. There's one spirit
that you follow the spirit of Christ. Right. Like he's redirecting them. But ultimately
coming back to you know the center of this letter is Corinthians 13 where he talks about
love and this being the the apex of the higher way. Yeah. Right. Learning how to love and
submit the crazy thing that I find about scripture when people pull it out of context is if you
take this passage we just read and I'm talking to you and I say if a woman does not cover
her head she might as well have her hair cut off. That's what the Bible says. OK. Here's
the problem. The Bible also says just for yourselves is there proper for a woman to
pray with her head to God with her head uncovered. Because the same passage in the same passage
because he's saying like there is an argument for it culturally. There's an argument against
it culturally. You need to judge for yourselves what is appropriate in this situation. You
need to be thinking about God not about yourselves. You know that she's going. No I'm I'm not
there yet. She'll be there. She'll be there. Don't you pull a Jamie Mitchell on us or
a Nick where we're like you have to talk. Shake your head. And so one of the things
that you and I have talked about this too when there's churches who are like hey we're
going to take this to the down to the letter in our like all right we're going to make
sure women don't have the or wear head coverings when required. We're going to make sure men
don't wear head coverings in church all this stuff. Like I actually have a certain amount
of respect for that even though I think that's a misinterpretation. I have a certain amount
of respect for that because they're not just saying we're going to take part of the story
of should women should women have an authority role in church. They're saying we're going
to take every passage that we see that talks about that and try to live that out. Right.
And so I'm like I actually have a level of respect for that. Right. I think it's misinterpretation
again but right. And also the question is even if you are following this are you going
to have grace with people who disagree with you. Yeah. It's OK if you don't eat meat that
was certain sacrifice to idols. Are you going to have grace with the people who do. Well
take it more messianic messianic Christians. Yeah. Like where they still won't eat pork.
Yeah. Right. Are they going to judge me for eating bacon. No most of them most of them
won't. Yeah. Right. That's that's kind of what it what it comes down to it comes back
down to that kind of the acts 15 I believe is when they're establishing I might have
that chapter wrong but it's when they're establishing what do we need the Gentiles to follow. I
was having a conversation like to this point where we're talking about like cultural issues
that like Paul is just addressing a lot of cultural issues in this letter. Right. Yeah.
And then how do you actually how do you live out Christ in this world where you have both
Jew and Gentile. Yeah. But I was having a conversation with a messianic pastor friend
of mine and he was talking about the weightier portions of the law which people get real
uncomfortable with. But Jesus talks about it. Right. The weightier portions of the law
being love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength and the second
is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else that you do through the Bible
is interpreted through those lenses. Yeah. And so he was talking to me because he still
keeps kosher. Right. But he said if he gets invited to somebody's house for dinner and
they don't realize what they're doing and they serve pork in their food he'll eat it
and he'll he'll just be unclean like from his perspective because once again unclean
doesn't mean sinful. Right. He'll just be unclean and because he believes that loving
people is more important than observing not eating pork. Amen. Right. And he said so I
take the weightier portion of the law now to the same thing you know in my life I have
a regular practice that I observe Sabbath. Right. We rest we play we remember that God
loves us. But there were days where people need help and they need somebody to show up.
Yeah. The weightier the portion of law kicks in. Yes. I have to love people. Now what I'll
say is if every week I'm violating Sabbath because I got to go I got to love people I'm
probably not planning my week very well. Right. And I need to actually figure out how to plan
my week better so that I'm intentional about my time with God. Yeah. But there are going
to be occasions that come up and I'm like I need to love God more I love people more
than I need a Sabbath this week. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Just on this last thing about hair because
just if you contextual why it matters continuing after 13 and why you shouldn't quote things
out of context says does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long
hair is a disgrace to him but that if a woman has long hair is her glory for long hair is
given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this we have no other
practice nor do the other churches. So in other words we don't have a way that we legislate
this. You got to figure it out among yourselves. Yeah. Like figure out what makes sense for
you guys. Taking taking the individual culture into play. Right. You got it. You got to be
able to do that. All right. So then we're going to jump over into Corinthians. First
Corinthians 14 and he's been continuing this dialogue which by the way we're going to recommend
this book. I recommended it a bunch of times but I always want to remember make sure people
know to read this. Kenneth Bailey has a book called Paul the Mediterranean eyes and he
pulls out the chiasmus of First Corinthians and talks about this mirroring text that Paul
has throughout the entire book. It is 100 percent worth your time. And if you are not
good in the details just read the summaries. Right. The summaries will still give you the
idea of what's going on if you're not a details person. Yeah. Yeah. So First Corinthians 14
now if you're familiar with 14 he's dealing with disorder and worship. Yes. I don't know
if you've ever gone to a meeting where they they have no plan going in. It's it's really
awkward actually you know because what ends up happening is like people get up and they
start doing a piece of music and then pastors like I have a word so I'm going to come and
talk right now. No communication walks up. Nobody knows what's going on and you maybe
you're not even know what the song. Right. And somebody is is filled with the filled
with the goodness and the in the time and they get a tambourine out and they start banging
the tambourine out of time with what everybody else is playing. And then somebody has a word
for the church that God's been speaking to them for the entire week and they get up and
start shouting it from the stage. Right. Now any of these things may be completely appropriate
and worship. But there is order. Right. And there's a spirit of order. Yeah. Paul is writing
to a church that is currently disorganized. Yeah. Right. They have a lot of issues going
on personally amongst members in their congregation. They have people coming in trying to install
certain doctrines and that don't need to be in the church. There's a lot that's going
on in here and there's not a lot of order. And so Paul's coming back in and he's like
hey let's establish some order. And he's saying he's actually with all of chapter 14 he's
like start here. Yeah. Like start here with your order. He's essentially dealing with
an entire room of toddlers if we want to talk about this. Yeah. As Paul talks about learning
how to get off the milk and go and eat. Yeah. So if we can even take it back to that context
and realize that he is talking to babies. Right. Because once again they had the spirit
fall and the church exploded. Right. This is the epicenter of what we're seeing is happening
as these churches are starting to grow and you've got all these people excited and you've
got you're now having messages where women are able to sit with the men in synagogue
in a home wherever and they're now. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen and now
they're getting to sit just like I'm sitting with you guys. Yeah. They're now sitting and
hearing things and saying it doesn't matter if you're Greek doesn't matter if you are
Jew doesn't matter if you eat pork you've got to figure it out for yourself. It doesn't
you know and. The most important thing is that you learn how to love each other. Love
in the middle of it. Because that's what's going to help you figure this unity out. Right.
Is that you have genuine love for each other you'll figure it out. Right. And chapter 14
comes off the back of chapter 13. Yeah. Where Paul is saying there's no greater thing than
the love we have. Yeah. Yeah. No that's that's so good. Spencer your drummer. Yes. If I take
a 12 year old and I give him two sticks and I say please go play drums and just as the
spirit leads you. Yeah. What am I going to get. Chaos. Chaos. Noise. But if that same
12 year old. Yeah they'll have fun. They'll have fun. And then let's say I had another
kid a bass and I said go play as a spirit leads right and I said to another kid go sing
and as a spirit leads. Right. Now all of them may be absolutely having a genuine experience
of worship but together their chaos. Yeah. And so but what we do is we is we teach structure
for the purpose of facilitating the spirit. Now the danger in that is what happens a lot
of times especially in American church is that people start to worship the structure
not the spirit. Let's play off the drum analogy just a little bit. Yeah. For you. So when
you're playing drums each hand and each foot has a job. Yeah. Right. One job is not more
important to another and depending how you use your hands and your feet you can create
a wide variety of sounds. Yeah. So it's not just I mean just to play on to that like how
you use your hands and feet you can create one thing that sounds very metalish rockish
and you can change up to how it's used where it's more of a jazz folky sound. You change
up to how it's used to where you're playing more Beatles style early rock whatever. Right.
And so so with that said yes everything has a job but depending how you use your hands
your feet can depend on the sound that you get one. And you've been playing for a really
long time Spencer and I and Sarah we've done worship together as a team. Very rarely do
I ask you for something specific. I said we need to build here do what's appropriate.
Right. Just like fit into what's going on because you're listening in to what's going
on in the entire body. Like music is actually just it's a great analogy of walking with
the church because learning to play together. You know some harmony in harmony you know
being on in the same key in the same key. Yeah. Did I did this in the timing. Did I
ever tell you about when I was leading worship for the Alaska Baptist Convention. We changed
keys in a practice but two people didn't show up for that practice and so they were there
when we did it live. So we were playing in B and they were in A and we went through but
the in ears weren't working right. So we couldn't hear each other very well. So I got through
the first verse and I'm like I was like things do not sound right. Right. And so then I turned
around I was like what key are you playing in there like a I was like we're in B now.
So I turned to the church I said what we've done is we've just illustrated what it's like
when the people of God are not on the same page. And we're gonna try again.
So I said let's do that again. But now let's see what it sounds like when everybody's actually
on this in the same key. You know but it was a joke but it's actually true. It's so true.
We can literally be singing the same song in a different key. Yeah. And it's chaos.
We can have the words in front of us. Yeah. And supposed to be saying the words. But if
we are not in harmony together. Yeah. Yeah. So it's by the way learning to play music
and continue with this analogy of the spirit is messy. It's very messy. Growing as a team
is messy. I would suggest that if your church isn't a little messy. Yeah. There's probably
not a lot of growth happening there. Oh 100 percent. Because growth is just a little bit
messy. You have five kids. It's messy. It's very messy. What did you say that your house
it looked like a tornado went through. It looks like a frat house. Yeah. A legit frat
house where I wake up and I'm like I was not invited to this party last night. And now
I'm cleaning up after this party that I was not invited to. So all of this conversation
now let's get into 1 Corinthians 14. You were pointing out that men and women now are in
the same service. But a lot of times the women don't necessarily know the refined Greek that's
being spoken. Right. Right. So what happens when you go to a church service and you're
listening to something in a different language. Let's back it up. Let's say you go to a church
service and they start using a bunch of theological speak and you have no idea what's going on.
Yeah. You know what I usually see is there's a little bit of titter chatter that goes on.
Right. Now this is remembering all these things. Now Paul comes in here and says God is not
a God of disorder but of peace as in all congregation of the Lord's people. So women should remain
silent in churches. They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission as the law
says. If they want to inquire about something they should ask their husbands at home for
it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Now you can quote that out of
context and people do and they literally don't let women speak the second they enter into
the building. She's got something. You got something. You can go. I mean no. I'm sitting
here thinking of we're just not reading these verses in context. Correct. Because earlier
he just talked about women being part of the service and prophesying. I don't know if you
guys have ever prophesied but you can't speak truth from your mouth without talking. Have
you ever tried to speak without talking? I mean like ASL people I'm still going to count
your hands as talking. Okay. You ever tried to talk without speaking? So clearly that's
not what he's talking about. Now I have a friend who was a missionary in the Middle
East and he said it was really interesting that even to this day you have the men are
tend to be higher educated and the women tend to be lower educated just because of the way
that their culture is built. And he said that you get to these places and the women still
to this day when they're gathered together in a place like they'll start chitter-chattering
it's like this dull roar moving through this area and you can't actually hear what the
speaker is saying now. I'm dying right now because you know exactly what I'm talking
about. I know exactly what you're talking about and truth be told Ben like this is the
part that's really frustrating for me as a woman pastor is this is the stuff that I can't
relate to personally. Yeah. I'm not a chitter-chatter woman. I never have been. I grew up most of
my life in circles of men. All of the kids in my school were boys. I went through high
school the majority of the ones I hung out with were guys because they were easier to
be around less drama. You know the funny thing this verse actually has more to do with me
sitting in a service than probably you. You would be nice and polite and quiet and be
listening and I'd be like hey did you hear him say blah blah blah. Totally. That would
be me. No Ben I've sat in meetings with you where you're talking to me and I'm looking
at you and I'm like shut up dude he's talking. She's like first Corinthians 14 Benjamin.
Listen. You know but like that that's that's. This is I mean this is so important because
Paul is saying that God is not a god of chaos. He's a god of order and you know when we just
sit on this one verse we could silence. I mean you could literally be telling the quiet
woman like me who's sitting and saying I'm not sitting in chattering and I'm I want to
listen I want to learn and you could silence women who have the gift of prophecy and I
am one of those women. It is a gifting that I have and when this verse was spoken over
me I was like I could never use my gift of prophecy. It's going to have to be a private
gift of prophecy. I can only go to someone in private and say this and when I realized
that God was saying actually Sarah when I give you words of knowledge I'm as a prophet.
Yes it's for you but it's for my people. Right. And there are moments where I give you words
of knowledge and I'm asking you just to give it to that person one on one. But this verse
is so dangerous because it can literally silence and quench the spirit of God that has been
poured out on his daughters. He says I have given words over my sons and daughters to
prophesy and and wait where where does that verse come from. When he says that I will
pour out the spirit of God and my sons and daughters with prophecy. It comes from Shavuot.
It's from Amos. And why would he say that in the Old Testament? When wait when women
don't have a say and they're just married off why would he say that in the Old Testament?
Because that's always been his plan. And then why would Peter quote it? And why would Peter
quote it saying since the beginning of time God's plan has been for my sons and daughters
to prophesy. Yeah the other hard thing with this particular verse when people take it
into context I was like if you really want to read it like literally does that mean that
every woman who's not married just doesn't get her answers? Because it's only wives are
supposed to ask their husbands. I was like so if you're not married you just not get
answers? Yeah. Like he's dealing with something very specific and so this is why it's really
dangerous when you when you weep a nice scripture. I was like for example let's just say that
I had a daughter. I don't but if I had a daughter and she wanted and somebody wanted to marry
her and I said listen you got to go get me 100 Philistine foreskins. So they were like
we'll make it 200. They'll make it 200. Now if you've read the story of Saul and David
you'll understand that. Like I was like I'm just quoting scripture at them and I'm quoting
it contextually correct. Right. But we're completely missing the context. We can't like
the other thing is we can understand somewhat understand context and still abuse scripture
over people. Oh totally. Which is not what we're called to do the scripture. And so this
is meant to draw us closer to Jesus and closer into relationship with God so that in that
outpouring of our lives can then be the blessings. It can be blessings to others. And so. So
I want to read the rest of that chapter because we stop there a lot of times where you'll
say well we should be quiet. And this is the one that they pull out right. It says in 36
or did the word of God originate with you. Or are you the only people is reached. If
anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the spirit let them acknowledge
that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. But if anyone ignores this they will
themselves will be ignored. Therefore brothers and sisters. OK. Whenever there's a therefore
what's there for therefore. It's referring to everything that came before. So this applies
to both men and women if you want to speak. Be eager to prophesy and do not forbid the
speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. Yes.
Be eager to prophesy brothers and sisters. Be eager to. And if you're a non Pentecostal
prophesy is going to be preaching for you. Right. That's the way you're going to interpret
because you're speaking the word of God to people. Right. That's how that and I don't
think that's a bad interpretation. I personally believe with some of my theology that prophecy
is is wider than that. But it's at least that. Yeah. You know I was I was listening to you
guys speak at a conference about a month ago where he was where he cracked a funny joke
and he was like he's like you ever had a Baptist come up to you and was like hey you know I
was reading scripture and you just came to my and I just wanted to share this with you.
He's like yeah that's prophecy. Yeah. I was like yeah that's that's good. That's really
good. That is by the way we will we will be getting into that in the next couple of weeks
as we get into the the movement of the spirit which I believe we're actually going to have
you back on one of those if possible. Yeah. I would love that. I think we talked about
it. Yeah. The first time. Yeah. Well we'll determine with your schedule because you know
reverends are really busy. So so I think we should jump over. Yes. Probably the most famous.
This is the most famous by far. This is if it gets quoted if one verse gets quoted to
disqualify women from ministry it is this verse and I think we've even addressed it
twice in Q and A's and we're going to address it again. Yeah. So jumping over to First Timothy.
Now before we get into 11 through 15 we need to set the stage a little bit. Timothy's in
Ephesus. There's a lot of stuff going on. I have a sense the Temple of Aphrodite is
there and so there was actually supposedly a lot of priestess and stuff from Aphrodite
being coming to know Jesus and entering into the church. Right. So so so godly worship
in that area was directed by women. Yes. Yes. That was very very common. Very common. Very
common. The second thing we need to mention here with both the Timothy's letters is like
listening to one side of a phone conversation. Yeah. We don't actually know what Timothy
wrote to Paul. Yeah. And Paul is answering Timothy. Right. So there is there that is
why I like a lot of Timothy was a set and Timothy is actually argued quite a bit is
because like means this it means this means that and so I actually don't fully know what
Paul's addressing here. And it's hard because I although Paul would probably likely expect
this to be disseminated among the churches. Right. It was written to Timothy. Yeah. So
even if I wrote if I wrote a letter to Spencer right there is likely things that I would
say that he would know exactly what I meant. Right. Right. And so then when he went and
gave the letter to other people he would explain what I meant by something that I said. You
know for example if I was like you need to be with them 100 percent. Yeah. He'd be like
oh yeah because we always say 100 percent on the podcast and you know blah blah blah
you know like that would be an inside joke kind of thing. It's one side of a conversation.
Yeah. And so in first Timothy to particular if you back all the way up to the beginning
it says first of all I urge that supplications prayers intercessions and thanksgiving be
made for all people. So he starts off by addressing everyone. Yep. OK. You jump down a little
bit further and then he goes he says by the way that's also not just men and women that's
Christians and non-Christians because he talks about kings and authorities. Yep. Yes. So
everyone he's talking about everyone. And then he goes on and he says I desire that in every
place that men should pray lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling. And then he goes
into women. Right. Boy can we stop on men not praying without quarreling or being angry.
Yes. So so you have something that's going on. We just got to paint this picture a little
bit. You have something that's going on in Ephesus where men aren't stepping up like
they're supposed to. Right. OK. And likely because they haven't had to. Yeah. You know
because if if worship and leadership for spiritual stuff is typically led by the women and your
job is to go fight wars guess what you're going to be a little aggressive. Yeah. So I have
a right. So I have a pastor friend and what she what she always says is as as a leader
in the church you do not want to fill every every need there is in the church because
you're going to deprive somebody from the opportunity of serving and being blessed by
that. Oh good. It's good to say that again. So you as a leader in the church you do not
want to fill every role in the church because you will deprive somebody from the opportunity
of serving. There is some leader right now that just heard that word of knowledge and
I just want to tell you you need to sit in that for a second. Yeah. And for another conversation
another day the three of us right now could tell you woundings that we have because people
didn't know that about themselves and woundings we created. Yeah. Because we did not know
that about ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. And so a little side story to that there was a church
I was involved with for a while where they were like they're like OK you're a drummer
and we're establishing a youth worship team and you we need someone to drum and I was
like OK but I'm a leader and you need to find students. So I'm not going to fill that role.
I was like what I will do if you have students who want to learn how to drum I will teach
them how to drum and then they can start being built into that role. But I was like I'm not
going to fill that role for them. Right. Yeah. Right. We need to give somebody else the opportunity
to serve. Right. Sometimes that could have done but it was like no we need to give somebody
else the opportunity to serve too. Yeah. So then Paul starts getting into this conversation
about women. OK. Not wearing or any jewelry not putting your hair in certain ways not
wearing specific clothing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Basically he's saying we want you. We want
women to be defined. She's holding back her smirk. She is. I just want to let you guys
know I'm really sorry. And maybe this is just a it's it needs to be it. I'm going to speak
to a woman out there who's in a church where she is being squashed and silenced. I'll never
forget when my attire as a woman pastor was the primary bone of contention and leadership.
Yeah. And I would say that as someone who's journeyed with you guys now for at least what
six maybe 10 years been longer than Spencer for the most part the person you ran into
at the grocery store Saturday morning Sunday. I'm pretty consistent right. And how I present
myself and I'll never forget when the topic was how I was being showy. I was trying to
prove something that I was trying to draw attention to myself and it was coming from
the elders. Yeah. And I was just like Lord I don't know what to do. Like I believe in
a level of modesty and there are times where I've come out and I've asked my husband and
my is this OK. And he's and he's like Sarah you are totally good because I'm going you
are my headship. You're my covering. So if I ever ever check and I don't feel good you're
my covering. So I'm going to come to you and vice versa and vice versa. And I'll never
forget that morning I I was given pearls right before my wedding from my husband and I grabbed
those pearls and I put those on my neck and I went and led worship because I had been
through hell with the elders talking about how I was trying to draw attention to myself
and I loved getting all of the attention of people looking at me and I was dressing for
people to look at me and I was like are you kidding me. And I wore those pearls with just
a sense of this is what you're going to get caught up in. Right. We were talking with
with Jamie. I mentioned that a lot of times women are held to a stricter or a double standard.
I was like because we don't give a hard time to men who wear a sharp a sharp tie or a big
suit. You know I mean like when they're dressing up or when they're rocking skinny jeans or
right. Well I shouldn't sometimes do. I give Nick a hard time about skinny jeans. But he
said pretty soon I'm going to start wearing skinny jeans. I said listen Nick all jeans
I wear skinny jeans because I got big legs. So it's funny because just you know it's it's
not actually that's not just a gender based thing. So in ministry I don't know. You'll
find this ironic because like what it's interesting when people who are in authority with you
don't know you. So I was I was talking and I had a postural support team and somebody
made mention they said I always feel like you're trying too hard that you're always
talking about the Bible that you're always talking about God and that you're like you're
like building these things up and like we just want you to be you. And I'm like do you
do you know me. Because I feel like maybe you don't because if you spent any time with
me it's it's how long how long do I go without talking about the Bible or something at some
point. Not long. It's not long. I was like and you know usually it's a it's a joke or
it's a sarcastic comment or a cool thing that I read or something. I was like but it's very
authentically me. Yeah. But but for them they're like well you're being being showing and a
lot of and what I've kind of found is a lot of times it has more to do with the people
than it does with you. Yeah. I remember there was also a church that I served at which was
incredibly unhealthy where one of the deacons talked about they were talking about my wife
who is incredibly modest and that she dresses inappropriately and he can see things. I
was like well you could also not look. You could control your eyes. But I going back
to are we doing these things in love. I appreciate you Ben saying that because as a husband and
as a side note just for the listeners I love the fact that when we were getting ready to
record and we were all sitting around joking Ben was like I got to get going because I
have to go get my kids. I promised Tara I would be somewhere. That's the man that I
get to serve in ministry with who has not seen his place in ministry as a higher level
but instead he's a co-laborer with his wife. Side note and also my wife is a deacon so
technically she breaks me in the church. It's true. It's true. It's pretty great. I love
it. I love it. But I want to go back to I appreciate how you're wanting to stand in
the gap but I also have a role as a woman in loving men who are struggling with this
co-equality. Oh 100 percent. I know we talked about earlier about the head coverings and
all those things but there is a level that I also have to make sure that I'm not distracting
you guys. There was wisdom that Paul was giving that when he was saying to cover your head
it was unheard of for the Jews to be around women with shaved heads. That was associated
to paganism and if that beautiful woman who had a shaved head had a word of knowledge
and it could have been received better if she had just covered it in love with her brothers
was that hurting her? Listen I've had to come to that place. And you make a good point because
let's say I'm invited to an Amish community to preach. Yeah. I'm not going to whip out
my iPad and start talking to them right? Right. Because this is staying at home. This is staying
at home. And we're going to talk from a physical binding right? Because I'm recognizing where
I'm going you know? And that's completely appropriate to do. And what Paul is saying
is know where you're at because the gospel is more important than your feelings. And
the gospel is more important than your preferences. What he's not saying is that you should do
these things everywhere like carte blanche because they don't apply everywhere. Right
but he's saying you have to personally take this before God. Yeah. It's got to be do it
how many times have you said it's for your choosing? Yeah. Do what you will. Because
if I got like a good example is if I got invited to lead worship at a Bible Belt church I'm
probably not wearing a hat to worship. No. I will never forget the time I got asked to
lead worship in a traditional church and I put on a skirt. I put on a sweater. Yep. Low
heels. And I left that church and went to a gathering at my church and everyone walked
in and they're like wow what funeral were you at? I was like these are church clothes
guys? Yeah because depending on where you go like I put on a tie. I put on a jacket
because it's appropriate because what I don't want them to I don't want them to miss the
message because of what I'm wearing. Right. I want I am wanting to be a vessel that is
used and I'm wanting to love you guys. I will not walk into a community of old people and
gladly show my tattooed sleeve. Right. I will cover that not because I'm ashamed of that
but because I just want I want them to get to know me before they have to then sit and
wrestle with the work guys asked me to bring. And that ties back into actually the first
Timothy 2 passage here where the reason Paul is saying this to the church is because Temple
of Aphrodite was actually had a lot to do with prostitution and sex. Right. And so when
you had these priestesses who were known for things like prostitution sex or organizing
that. Or these big ornate clothing. Yep. Coming over into the Christian church. Yep. Paul
is saying I don't want you to be a distraction. Right. Right. But he's also doing that for
them as well. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like he's also letting them go look he's letting these
priestesses know how you have been taught to worship. Yeah. Has all been about the outward
what you look like. But God is wanting to get on the inside and we can read that and
go this is he's just admonishing the women and trying to teach the men in that community.
He's actually telling the women hey you're more than your jewelry. You're more than your
box. And well I was going to say to your point what is so let's read that actually the most
controversial bit because now understanding everything coming into this let's read that
controversial bit. Yeah. So it says let women learn quietly with all submissiveness. This
is a new living translation by the way. This is actually this is in the ESV. Wow. I'm actually
reading the ESV right now. OK. Let all women learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do
not permit women to teach or exercise authority over men. Rather she should remain quiet for
Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and
became the transgressor. Yet she will be saved through through childbearing if she continues
in faith love holiness self-control. So some of you have never heard that verse before
and we will talk about that maybe in a Q&A or something like that because it definitely
doesn't mean what you think it means. So we're just going to deal with the permitting woman
to have authority. So this actually this verse actually is not saying is not telling women
to not teach. Yeah. And let me get into that a little bit. So it actually talks about authority
in verse 12. It says I do not have to teach or have authority over men and people will
be like well it says teach right there. So yeah yes but the word authority that is used
there is that he does not permit women to abuse or misuse their authority that they
may have over men. Right. So that Greek word is only used that one time in all scripture.
That's the only time Paul uses that Greek word. So then so then the question might come
up somebody might ask well how do we know that that's what that word means. Well because
there were other texts written around that time that use the exact same words so we can
contextually see how is this word used in regular conversation. Yeah. Right. So what
Paul is saying here is he's saying hey when these women come over come over and are entering
into the fold don't let them abuse their authority like they did in their previous life. And
specifically what word I'm going to use is called usurp. Yeah. In other words you take
over authority because you're a woman. Now we talked about this in the Q&A and I'm going
to say this again because I think it bears repeating. Yeah. What Paul is saying is if
God has called a man to be a pastor of a church and you come in as a woman in the in in Ephesus
and because you're used to being an authority you charge of worship because you're used
to being that. And you say well because I am a woman I am going to upend the man and
take authority. Yes. Paul's like nope you're not going to do that. Who God calls is who's
actually going to be an authority. I don't permit women to come and submit usurp authority
over a man. Now the problem is what have we done with this verse. We have taken it and
we've said OK that means men get to have all authority over women. So when God calls a
woman he puts a call on a woman like Reverend Sarah over here or soon to be Reverend Sarah.
I'll say that correctly. And somebody comes in they say well because I am a man I'm going
to take the authority that was given to her by God and her pastors her leaders her denomination.
I'm going to usurp it and take it because of my gender. Congratulations you played yourself.
Yeah. You just did the exact thing that Paul just told you not to do. Yeah. The further
on to my point where it's actually isn't saying that women shouldn't that women have to sit
under authority under authority of man in the church. If you go jump over to chapter
three it talks about husbands roles of husbands and then it goes into church leadership. Did
you know the word that for that they use there for the church leader is overseer. People
assume there's a male connotation to it because it says husbands at first. All right. And
so we've inserted this male connotation to it but it really just says overseers. Right.
And while he's been going to be husbands and wives men and women so then to assign a gender
to the overseer is probably a little misleading a little misleading. Yeah. And so so we just
want to be really careful with that. So but what Paul is actually saying here is he's
saying is he's telling these women that are coming into the church you're no longer your
old self. Right. Right. Right. He it's a gospel presentation saying you're no longer your
old self. You are now in the fold. So you don't need to dress in the in the ways that you
did. You don't need to lead in the ways that you did. Right. I want you just to sit learn
and become part of this fold. And I think too he's also telling these these women who
have been wounded I want you to learn what it feels like to now be rest to rest and let
you be poured into. Yeah. And that's the saddest thing that if we don't read these these scriptures
through the correct context we have silenced so many women and told them just to sit down
and shut up because of your gender. You know the hard thing is is that a lot of times when
I see that especially here to his extreme it occurs in abusive situations where there
is extremely amount of like either physical mental spiritual or emotional abuse that's
happening in a church not to pick on a specific person but when you have the church of Mars
Hill because it's been very public with what happened in Mars Hill there was a systematic
oppression of people that was happening in there and God has gone through and he's redeemed
a lot of what's going on in there because God's awesome. He takes our messes and makes
them beautiful. Right. You know I got to go to school with one of the elders. Yeah. Mars
Hill. There's actually a great book by Scott McKnight called A Place Called Tove where
he addresses and talks to some of the people who dealt with like and what does it look
like to actually find redemption in the midst of chaos. Like those those mentalities like
they they tend to foster abuse rather than freedom. Agreed. And I know the biggest thing
that I struggle with is like we need to be free but like Paul's understanding of freedom
is our freedom is the ability to do everything but choosing to lower ourselves to other people.
Not thinking more of ourselves than others. Yeah. That's freedom is the ability to do
something and choosing not to. Yeah. This comes back to a few weeks ago I talked about
this idea of gentleness or meekness. Gentleness. You can't be gentle unless you're capable
of not being gentle. And so choosing to be gentle is an intentional choice with the ability
to do more. Exactly. Yeah. And so it's actually you know this whole idea of being humble is
actually like bending the knee to if I'm taller than you I bend the knee to be at the same
height as you to look you eye to eye. Yeah. Like metaphorically because it would be very
hard for me to bend a knee to get to the same height as you. That'd be the big bed for me.
I'm very tall. Yeah. So there is area area. I'm bringing us back. Bring us back to first
time of the year a little bit. So jump over to chapter four for just a brief moment. Yeah.
Chapter four verse six. He's talking to both brothers and sisters. OK. And then later on
you jump down in a section where he says OK brothers and sisters. In verse 11 he says
command and teach these things to both brothers and sisters. Yeah. Yeah. It's why parsing
the Bible is a really important thing. So we we have spent some time pulling this. I
encourage you to actually spend more time pulling this part than what we did. BT Roberts
Ordaining Women. Do you have any book recommendations for people. No. Come back to me and I'll have
to. The Making of Biblical Womanhood by I forget who it's by but I'll put it in the
show notes. Gifted to Lead by Nancy Beach. That's a really good book. Yes. What Paul
really said about women by Lauren Cunningham. Yeah. Both Paul through Mediterranean eyes
and Jesus through Middle Eastern eyes by Kenneth Bailey have great sections on that. Yeah.
So I'm just I'm recommending a few sources like just to actually take a look at contextually
what's going on. You need to spend the time. So and the reason I say that is Paul's letters.
We tend to read at face value because we think we know what he's talking about. My problem
is Peter makes mention he says Peter the guy who walked with Jesus for three and a half
years was leading the church for 14 years before Paul started writing letters. Right.
And you know had gone through Torah school and you know he like the apostle Peter guy
guy knows a little bit about scripture. Knows this stuff. And he's like yeah Paul's kind
of hard to understand. Right. Now if Peter the apostle thinks that he walked with Jesus
for three years we should maybe have a little bit more humbleness when we say this is clearly
what Paul meant when we translate his language from Greek to English. Yeah. It's plain English.
Obviously it was originally plain Greek. And apparently to Peter it wasn't that plain.
So yeah. The other spot where it talks about you know women's role in church and and quote
unquote limiting it is in Titus. Yeah. And what happens a lot in Titus is where he says
he's talking to Titus about appointing elders and deacons and he makes mention he'll say
like the husband of one wife and like he'll go through and do a lot of these things. And
because there's a gender applied it's he we look at as like only as. But like you're dealing
once again with this overseer thing and frequently in Titus once again it's brothers and sisters
teach these things. Yep. Right. And the one spot where people often pull out of context
where where they try to limit the woman's role is where it says women can teach other
women and children but they shouldn't teach a man. One thing I always push back on this
I was like OK so what are you defining as manhood. Yeah. Because you're talking about
a culture where manhood comes out of much younger age than what we define it. Right.
Right. So culturally manhood would come what 1314. Yeah. Right. At the Bar Mitzvah. Yeah.
Right. So culturally manhood would come 1314. Right. And we and our culture in the U.S.
we view manhood more 1820 to 21 right. Right. Right. So at what point if you're saying
that women can only teach women or children at what point are you defining manhood if
you're defining it by biblical standard are you saying women are excluded from teaching
any one junior high and older. Right. Which that's a whole nother can of worms or are
you defining it by cultural standards which if we're defined by cultural standards then
are we quote unquote going against scripture. Right. Right. And so this is where you have
to go back to the context. And again Titus like Timothy is written to Titus. Yeah. Right.
It wasn't a corporate letter who is also in Crete. Yes. Which is not Ephesus. Yep. Crete
is not Ephesus. It's not Corinth. It's not Corinth. It's not Rome. It's not Galatia.
So we it's not Thessaloniki. Let's just let's just take Alaska for example. Yeah. OK. Because
that's where we're at. Southeast Alaska is very different than mainland Alaska. Yeah.
Right. And even you get into different communities in mainland Alaska. They're very different.
Go to the illusion chain. It's way different. Way different. Yeah. All right. You you go
to different communities in Southeast Alaska. They're very different. Now what Paul does
do is he gives them guardrails. Yeah. These are guardrails to have a structure. But once
again what happened the structure is meant to facilitate the movement of the spirit.
Yeah. And when you start worshipping the structure rather than what the spirit that feeds the
structure you end up with a lot of divisive things which by the way I don't know if you
saw this at the end of Titus he makes mention he says avoid foolish controversies and genealogies
and arguments and quarrels about the law because these are unprofitable and useless. Well more
than a divisive person once and then more than a second time after that have nothing
to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful and they are self
condemned. So Paul is saying I love you guys. So Paul is saying he's like there's this there's
these controversies but he's also like OK don't dwell on them. Yeah. And like especially
we're talking about quarrels. It is fine to sit down and have a conversation with people.
Absolutely. Where we're called to. My suspicion is Sarah I mean you can speak to this in your
growing up in biblical womanhood and pastorhood. Do people come and just have a conversation
with you. No that's not usually the way that it comes. No and I think this is this is the
part that is just heartbreaking. Yeah. Is I I'll sit in rooms with other female pastors
and I'm just so thankful for it because I realize that I'm not alone. But so often if
you have a woman in ministry in your church setting I would just encourage you to just
ask her from time to time. What's it like being a female in ministry because this is
obviously an issue that God breathed inspiration into Paul and Timothy and Titus and he breathed
in inspiration to all of those letters that were written to those churches for those situations.
But there's a reason why we're still reading them today. Yeah. As Jesus knew God knew since
the beginning since the garden that women's voice was going to be an issue. And he was
preparing us to deal with this. And there are women right now who have literally been
told to sit down be quiet don't speak. You can only lead in kids ministry. You can't
lead any farther than junior high. You can't lead any farther than you know like. Or your
only value is producing your only value children which by the way was the way of Egypt. Yeah.
So slavery. Yeah. There's this lady that I know where she was a youth ministry director
at a church. Right. So essentially she had the youth pastor. Did awesome work like more
and more kids will come to their youth group. Kids are coming to know Jesus. It was amazing.
The church was like OK we need to hire a pastor but we can't hire her. But they basically
took her job and was like OK because we need to hire a pastor make sure it's a man. But
they basically just changed the title of job. Yeah. She and a bunch of other people ended
up leaving the church because they're like why are you are you discounting the work that
she just did. And are you just trying to play the like well we label her as a ministry director
and that's OK. Right. It's yeah. You know the hard thing about all that and like growing
up where there's like in your position where people come and they they're really harsh
with you they're not coming to just talk. The hard thing is is like with who was Spencer
I who had to come and have a conversation with you about something we saw in your ministry
you would actually receive what we have to say because we're not coming to beat you up.
We're coming to make you better. Right. You can't correct without connection. Right. Say
that again. You can't correct without connection. We're gonna make that into a t shirt because
that's good. Yeah. I don't know if you stole that from somebody but that just that we're
gonna we're gonna put a Sarah Harney had just came out. Yeah that's that's good. You can't
you cannot correct without connection. That's just that's because I was sitting reliving
a conversation with an elder and critiques. Yeah. Yeah. This goes back to speaking truth
and love which we've talked about is you have to be in fellowship in unity and then you
can speak truth and love. Yeah. Yeah. So there's kind of four questions that I had and I don't
and these are meant to just kind of be open ended for people to go do their own digging
on. Yeah. All right. We've covered we've covered a decent amount of ground here but one is
when I talked about it at the beginning a little bit first one define can you define
what a pastor is. All right. Okay. Because you can't tell somebody they can or cannot
be something you cannot define. Hundred percent. Hundred percent. All right. Can you define
what the church is. Okay. Because if you're telling someone like hey you can't be a pastor
of a church. Okay. What's a church. If the church is a body of believers and you have
someone leading a group of five or six people in a house is that a church. Yeah. Right.
Then if you're gonna say yes then okay. How do you define leadership of that. Yeah. Okay.
Or if you say no then that's another question. Define preaching. Yeah. Because this is this
is the soapbox I get on a little bit when people are like women can't preach. I was
like what is preaching. Yeah. Proclaiming the gospel right. We're proclaiming the gospel
of Jesus Christ to those around us. So if you're saying a woman says proclaims the gospel
to one person in the grocery store is she preaching. So are you telling her that she
cannot share her faith. Because if we're defining because unfortunately we've just got to find
preaching as proclaiming the gospel. We're gonna try really hard not to answer this because
both Sarah and I have some ideas. Yes. Yes. So because we want you guys to do some digging.
Do some digging. And then the last one is last last question that you should really
do some digging on is what are the levels of authority in church. How does that compare
to the Bible. How's that compared to the Bible. Yeah. Because they're not the same thing.
They're not the same thing. Yeah. Right. And so those are some questions for you to go
do some digging on and write us some emails on. So as we're closing out this episode I
want to just mention something. If you have a verse that you feel like comes into this
perspective that we didn't cover. Yeah. Send it to us we'll talk about it in a Q&A. Right.
Because we did not cover everything. These were like the biggest ones that we can find.
If you have questions or push back on our commentary send us a send us an email. We're
OK with that. Yeah. Like we invite people we disagree with all the time. Yeah. We interact
with them and we have a lot of people listen from various backgrounds Pentecostal to reformed.
Yeah. And it's OK for us to disagree. It's not OK for us to not have unity because we
disagree. Finally if our listeners I'd like you to on a regular basis pray for Reverend
Sarah. Pray for the pray for the women pastors that you know that are serving in this capacity.
Even if you think they're wrong. Yeah. I want you to pray that God would fill them with
the Holy Spirit give them guidance and enlighten them to follow his path. Yes. Because even
if you think they're wrong that's what you should be praying. That God is going to step
into their life and reveal himself more fully and then trust the Holy Spirit to do his work.
Amen. Amen. Sarah we're really glad you're here. You deal with our obnoxious sarcastic
natures. Do you have anything to say before we bounce. No I just obviously yes I do. I
said no and obviously I do. No let me say something. I want to say thank you Ben and
Spencer for just allowing us to scratch the surface of this and and to do it in a way
that is loving not only to your sisters but I know is loving to our brothers and at the
heart of this is the fact that I realize that you guys are just inviting all of us to to
see the heart of God. Thank you so much. And his scriptures are his love letter to his
people and we get to read it together. So thank you guys. Thank you. There she is taking
us to church right there. All right. Till next time. Till next time. And that's a wrap
for today's episode of Love and Context. We hope you enjoyed this engaging conversation
and gained valuable insights into the powerful message of love within the Bible. We'd love
to hear from you and continue the conversation. Connect with us by sending us your questions
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seeking wisdom, embracing love and living out your faith in the context of today's world.
You know, I was thinking that I was thinking they're going to judge me on the basis of
my lip health.