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Season two of Love in Context podcast welcomes you. Get ready for engaging unscripted conversations

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with your hosts, Ben and Spencer. Our mission remains unchanged to explore the Bible through

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the powerful lens of love. In this new season, we'll embark on a journey together, unearthing

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fresh insights and gaining deeper understanding of how we can love God and live out our faith

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in practical ways. So let's dive into this season of Love in Context, where love in the

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context of the Bible intersect to transform our lives.

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Welcome back to the Love in Context podcast with Ben and Spencer. This is unscripted conversation.

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That's Spencer. Spencer here. That's Ben right over here. And we are joined this week

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by Dominique King. Thanks for being with us today. And from what I understand, prior to

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this is your husband, who we love, who was like, wait, you're going on the podcast? So

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that's, you're welcome, Kate. Actually, we would actually love to get him on here at

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some point too. Just in for this particular series, he's not a woman. So his input is

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less valuable, if that's fair. So you might not think it's fair. Well, you know what?

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He's not here on a mic. So he doesn't, I can't, I can hear Kate typing his email. Just be

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like, just going on right there. Yeah. Dominique, can you tell us a little bit about yourself

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and about maybe about your, your faith journey? Like the church has you been a part of growing

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up? Sure. Well, I just had my birthday this month. I'm a 53 year old woman. 53 years young.

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Yep. Yeah. And I have four children and I was raised in a family where my dad was an

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atheist and my mom was a believer. And I grew up at a church, a Presbyterian church when

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I was a kid. And my dad would say, well, I'm letting you go to church so you can know who

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the enemy is. So it was an interesting dynamic. I would say so. Yeah. My grandmother was a

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huge woman of faith and was really the picture of Jesus to me and was kind to me throughout

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all my missteps and journey. And so when I got to college, uh, I had quite a bit of background

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in the Bible and people of faith around me, but I wouldn't say I was choosing to follow

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those things necessarily. I would say I had a personal relationship with Jesus, but I

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felt like there were a lot of, there was a lot of hypocrisy and things in what I had

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grown up with. Maybe similar to how I felt part of my life was Jesus was my savior, but

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I don't necessarily know that I made him my Lord. Right. And I come from kind of, I'm

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a fan of recovery and brokenness and my life was very broken. And so I think, I particularly

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think of Jesus as my savior, someone who saved me from myself and what, how I grew up and

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what I had experienced. And I definitely knew I was broken and needed some fixing and the

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guides I'd previously had even an education for college just didn't make the mark for

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me. It was cool. I went to college and I met my to be husband or my, the man I married

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and the guy that's sending us an angry email right now. Yeah, maybe he's not an angry guy.

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He's not an angry guy at all. He doesn't like confrontation. So you're good to go. He and

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I met and he had a very strong discipline to faith and we became friends, mostly arguing

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about things because he wanted to tell me how it was and I didn't take it very well.

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So we had a lot of discussions about faith, but in that we fell in love and decided that

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we need to go to church together and started that journey and we got married and it used

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to be, he'd say, I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be, you want to be in politics

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and I want to do something in ministry. And for myself in my mind as a young, the married

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woman, I thought great in perfect order. When I'm 65, I'll be ready to do something in ministry.

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Little did I know that God's plan was to have us land someplace where he did teach for three

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years and then wrote a letter to a church about the 10 reasons why they should hire

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him and he quit his teaching job and became a minister or like quarter time at that time.

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And so many people, I mean, I remember this really vividly one, cause I had a lot of conversations

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with God, like what is happening right now. I am not qualified and this was not the plan.

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And two, that so many people were like, you're letting your husband do that. I would leave

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my husband. I would be done with this whole thing, which I found fascinating. Like, okay,

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I just committed not very long ago. I was through thick and thin. I'm going to stay

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married.

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That doesn't quite sound like love. It does like, Hey, listen, you're doing something

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I don't want to do. I'm out of here.

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Yeah. I vividly remember those things that it was just so out of the box for some people

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that they were just like, yeah, I'd be done after that. And it was out of the box for

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me, but I'm a loyalist through and I try to keep my promises. So instead God and I had

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to go on a journey together about what is happening. And yeah, now I've been what you

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might call a pastor's wife for 25 years.

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Yeah. But we all know the pastor's wife is the one who's really in charge. Yeah. We all

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know that.

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Listen, if anybody is listening here, having grown up in a pastor's household, having known

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pastors and like throughout my entire life, there is no pastor and pastor's wife. There

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are the pastors. Like they share the workload. That is just the reality of pastoral ship

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is that they do it together. Back to the first episode where we say man and woman together

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are the image of God. Right? This is the foundation for the very beginning. So you have been pastoring

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with your husband for 25 years that we said.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yes. He pastors the Christian Missionary Alliance Church, which I wasn't

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a big denomination girl, but now that I've been there for 25 years, I know a little bit

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about the Christian Missionary Alliance.

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It took you 25 years though. It was like, just last year I finally learned.

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Well, I got to go last summer to New York and walk in the steps of a gentleman named

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A.B. Simpson, which is actually the gentleman that the Christian Missionary Alliance Church

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is founded on. He was a minister from Canada that went to New York in the middle of they

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had just finished the war and everybody there was kind of a north and south Exodus and all

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kinds of things going on and they thought maybe it'd be good to bring a neutral guy

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from Canada into a ministry position in New York. And he became very successful at a very

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rich church. But then he was going down to the docks serving the immigrants that were

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all coming in and bringing them and inviting them to church. And then his rich parishioners

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said, we don't like this. Stop inviting people. We don't want these people here.

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Speaking of that, we're actually doing a series on the book of James later. And so you'll

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go over why that's not a good thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's going to be a fun one.

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Yeah. So he discussed it with his wife and he quit and then decided he was going to start

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his own church. But really what he ended up starting was, I mean, he had a church, but

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he did. He had a recovery center for prostitutes. He had a food bank for people who needed food.

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He helped people find shelter. And so he really had a mission mindset from the very beginning.

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And I don't know that it was his goal to become a denomination after that. But when he passed,

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he'd made such an impact in that area that they formed the Christian Missionary Alliance

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denomination. And it's something you don't hear a lot in the United States because they

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are completely mission oriented. And it used to be that the United States was a Christian

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nation. And so it didn't need as many missionaries. And so they had tons of missionaries that

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went overseas. Now, as things are changing, you might start hearing Christian Missionary

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Alliance more. And you certainly hear it more in Alaska, because in Alaska, that's considered

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a mission state. Not everybody wants to come to Alaska and live.

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It's hard to live here, you know, especially when you're talking about like some place

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north where you're often like just the boonies. It's crazy. We actually were talking about

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because we have a couple that go to our church from South Korea that are from YWAM. And we're

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talking about how that Korea is actually sending a ton of missionaries to America because they're

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looking at that as field for people to actually hear about Jesus. It's true. You know, I have

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done many an interview where we have been looking to hire and people will come and say,

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I'm going to go wherever Jesus calls me to go. Yeah. And then they come here and they're

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like, no, mom, no, this, no, that. I don't feel I'm calling me. Yeah. Yeah. That calling

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something I real quiet in my area. And I've often said people that are in thoughts of

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ministry, like they want to go into missions that Alaska is a great place to come serve

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for a period of time because you don't have all the things of the lower 48 necessarily.

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And if they think, oh, I want to go into a completely different culture and a completely

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different this or that you should come serve in Alaska for a year or two and see how you

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do there and then go. You actually deal with culturally, even if you go like to the north

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or to the south or east, west. So it's so different in Alaska. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God's

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moving in Alaska, by the way. There is actually a lot of really positive movement as doing

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Alaska. I wouldn't be surprised if someone in these days we don't just see revival break

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out across the state. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, interesting thing when you're talking

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about how the call being strong, we're talking about women in ministry and in the Bible specifically.

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So over the last few weeks, we talked about God's original design in Genesis and some

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of the things we talked about in the Torah series last year, we talked about the women

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of promise, how God didn't just work through specific men. It was actually through specific

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men and women combined together. Yeah. Because they had other kids, but these are the specific

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kids that God chose to use. And it was women of promise that were just as important as

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the men. And then we talked about women in leadership in the Old Testament. We talked

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about Miriam, Esther, Huldah, Deborah. And then last week we talked about women in the

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light of Jesus and how in the book of Matthew, all these people who you think are on the

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outside are actually being welcomed in. So then it's interesting. You were talking

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about like how people are like, oh, I, you know, I'll go serve God wherever he calls

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and they come to Alaska and suddenly they call because the first person we're going

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to talk about with Jesus interacting with women in the New Testament, it seems like

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the most appropriate person to start with would be his mother. Right, Mary. Talking

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about Mary, mother of Jesus, kind of a big deal in the Bible. Right. A little bit of

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a big deal. One of the things I always think about with Mary, we think we touched on last

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year when we were talking about, we're talking about Jesus and his family is that Mary says

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yes to the call. Right. Like God comes and he says, Hey, something's going to happen

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with you. That's never happened with anybody else. The Holy Spirit is going to come on.

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You're going to birth a child and that's going to be with Shiach. Right. That's going to

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be a Messiah. I'm going to take care of all these things and like the promise is there.

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Okay, good. Then he goes and he talks to Joseph in dreams. So Joseph knows what's going on.

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Nobody else knows that's what happened in this case. Like they accept Jesus as Messiah,

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all the different things that kind of go with this, but she actually walks with shame for

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the rest of her life because under their opinion, she would have just had a child out of wedlock.

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Right. Even though they're technically married, the cultural things, but they're not supposed

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to have been had union yet. Yeah. So like she actually walks her entire life with shame

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because she's faithful to the promise of God. Well, not just her, Joseph too. Joseph too. Yeah.

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They walked their life in that shame together because I mean, as we know, having kids usually

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takes two. It takes two people. Yeah, it does. Yeah. I think it's really encouraging in the fact

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of like, sometimes I think we think, Oh, we're going to be faithful with God. We're going to

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be recognized for our faithfulness, but we very well may not be recognized in our like that.

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Mm hmm. Right. It may be decades or hundreds of years later that people will actually recognize

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the faithfulness of what God was doing in your life in that moment. And like the realities,

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you just have to be resolute in actually following what God is doing. And so then the question,

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like to your point, when you're talking about, Oh, I want to go, I will go wherever God calls me.

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Well, what about Alaska? Right. Well, if God calls you to Alaska, you may have to give up some things

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that matter to you. I guarantee you not walking around with shame matter to Mary. Sacrifice comes

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to mind that word. That wouldn't be a popular word in general, I think. And I'm not sure culturally

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today we do much of that or even understand it because we're indulged in so many ways with

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immediate gratification and we have so much opportunity in the United States. That concept,

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I mean, somebody might think I'm sacrificing because I mean, it seems really simple things,

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not like your whole life. And you have to be willing and saying that, yes, to say,

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I thought it was going to turn out one way, but now I'm open to another way. Yeah. And it takes a

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certain amount of faith. And certainly I've questioned it a hundred times in my own life

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that are, if I do this, are you really going to have my back? Yeah. Like, if I do this really

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wasn't my own plan, what is up? And most of the time it's not like simple things. Like when

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Cade decided to do his thing and become a minister, I was actually vacuuming at home,

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having a conversation with Jesus about what was he thinking. And someone actually came and knocked

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on my door and I was almost to the point of tears or whatever. And it was just a random stop by.

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And I was like, well, I'm having a moment. I just, I can't believe this is happening in my life.

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And they said to me, well, it does say in the Bible that whatever God puts in front of you or

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whatever he gives you, he's going to give you everything you need to handle that. I've never

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forgotten it ever. Like it was like an ordained moment. And you know, Mary has a couple of those

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ordained moments in her life that must have been significant to her. And it doesn't ever say anything

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about her original faith. Like did God choose her because she was super faithful? Did she even hear

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the voice of God before? She had all this happen to her. I've often wondered. Well, I think perhaps

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there is some indication that Mary has a faith, like a strong faith in God because immediately

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after she is pregnant, she goes to see Elizabeth, right? And there's this exchanging of songs.

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But like Mary's song, by the way, I'm going to reference a book here, Jesus to Middle Eastern

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Eyes by Kenneth Bailey has a fantastic section called Jesus of Women. This is a lot of his material

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from there. I do recommend checking that out. Also, we recommended this in the past, but a guy from

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like 1898, B.T. Roberts, Ordaining Women is also another great book. Just talking about some of

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these topics, but Bailey, you could also listen to if you Google him, you can listen to him talk

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his B.T. Roberts. I love him and his below ties. Yeah, they're so great. The one with the cross

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hanging on. He's got a look going to the different. If you're someone who like needs auditory

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processing, B.T. Roberts does not have a podcast. He does not. That wasn't a big thing in 1800s.

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So she goes and she sings a song, right? But it's a song and it's actually divided into two parts.

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The first part focuses on Mary and it has three things. She talks about praise, salvation and

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humiliation and exaltation. Like these are the things that God's going to do. But the second part

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of her song actually has a vision for the community, right? That what God is going to do is

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it's going, he's going to bring mercy and salvation and once again, humiliation and salvation. It's

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like a mirroring text on itself. And these, by the way, are clear goals that actually happen in the

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life of Jesus and his ministry as well. Now, I think sometimes people will hear me say that and be

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like, Mary influenced Jesus's ministry. And so to be very clear, I'm going to say, yes, she did.

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Like, absolutely. She did. Son of God on a mission. But like your parents absolutely influenced

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like how you go about. Right. And that I mean, that's a little bit of a universal thing, right?

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Your parents are going to have an influence on your life. It could be good, could be bad, could be

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non-existent. Right. There's a reason why God shows Mary and Joseph to be Jesus's parents,

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because that was something that he wanted as part of the ministry that Jesus was going to

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be having on earth. There's a reason why he chose your parents to be your parents. Exactly. He keeps

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doing it. Yeah. It's not an accident. You know, but to your point, you say, you know, is Mary a

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person who hears of God? And immediately she comes out with this, we call it the Magnificant, right?

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Here's what I see him doing in this situation. And it's a pretty, it's a pretty interesting thing

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because the people who are on the outside, mercy, salvation, grace, these are the hallmarks of the

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kingdom of God. And these are hallmarks of the gospel that Jesus presents, which is repent for

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the kingdom of heaven is here, ready for you to interact. And even when we come into the

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sermon on the Mount, he says, blessed are these people, these people who you think are on the

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outside are actually being welcomed in because the kingdom was made for them. Yeah. And the,

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another thing to mention about Mary is that she knew who she was following. Right. Because a lot

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of times we kind of just associate Mary with the birth of Jesus. And it's like, no, she was

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Jesus's mother and she followed Jesus throughout his ministry. She was there for the way in Cana.

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She was there at his death. She followed him throughout his whole ministry. She knew who she

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was following and she said no to every other thing. Yeah. She knew who Jesus was. She knew Jesus was

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the Messiah, the one who's going to, who's going to forgive, redeem, save. And she said no to the

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earthly things around her. Right. And in that way, she was a great role model to look after.

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Well, thinking about a woman and you know, you have babies. I know you guys are both dads.

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Yes. We did not have the babies, but I was there. Right. But going back to that idea of sacrifice,

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I do think sometimes you really feel it when you have kids that your life was your own. And then

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now you have this kid and it's taken priority. Right. And when I think about Mary, one, just

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being a mom and having a child and having to sacrifice everything for that child, regardless

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if it's Jesus or not, that's bonus and extra. Right. But also that requires an outlook sometimes

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beyond yourself in order to have the tenacity and grit to accomplish that, to keep going over that

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period of time. And we don't have kids that are maybe called to that same thing, but knowing that

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and raising him, knowing or not knowing whatever she knew that something big was going to happen

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with this. And I guess she knew some of it because she knew the Old Testament part of things.

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Yeah. But we know that the disciples had no idea what Messiah meant. Right. Like they all had

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different ideas, whether they were zealots or whether they were Pharisees or whether they were

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tax collectors, they all had different ideas about like, what does Messiah mean? And most of them

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thought like, why about Rome? That was, you know, which is just side note, it's just funny. That was

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the view they had because that's a very narrow view. It's very narrow view. Right. And then I

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started thinking about that. I'm like, that's all too relatable. Yeah. Too relatable. Like,

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like a little too painful. Well, how often are we having this conversation where like, God,

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if you could remove this one issue in my life, I could serve you more faithfully.

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And you're like, well, could you really? I mean, because it seems like you got people like

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Corrie Ten Boon, who are in the middle of the Holocaust and she's like being bitten by lice

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and concentration camps and serving God faithfully and her circumstances don't matter. And then

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there's us where we're like, oh, I didn't get, I didn't get the promotion that I wanted. And so

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the shop gave me decaf coffee shop today. Well, that, that is a fire of offense. No.

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Well, in my own life, I feel like in Mary is probably too. Sometimes when you say yes to

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a higher calling, it demands more. And so I've often thought if my life hadn't gone this way,

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would I have the relationship I have with Jesus today? No, probably not. I would not have chosen

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a lot of those things and would not have put myself in a suffering position as much because

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I think I would be more self-focused than being in the ministry kind of forces you to constantly

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be focused out or tries to force you, I guess not. You don't have to comply, but I think Mary would

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have been in that same position. She can't get away from this thing that, you know, that she is

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growing her son into or for, but she doesn't know even what it is. So it's got to be on her mind all

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the time. And it's got to grow her relationship with God, however that looked. Well, I was gonna say,

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I was gonna say she gets a lot of benefit from the fact that she is the mother of Jesus as well,

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though, because you remember the story where they're going to the temple and then they leave and

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they're like, Oh, Jesus isn't here. So they go back and they find him and they're like, why are we

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here? He's like, of course, he don't, you know, I had to be in my father's house. It says one of

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the things that she says there is that it says that Mary treasured all these things in her heart.

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Now, one of the things that I find particularly interesting when Luke writes that is, uh, he's

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very clearly because the Magnificent is in the book of Luke, as well as the story. Um, there is

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another story in the book of first Samuel about a guy, a kid by the name of Samuel, who is, has a

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mother named Hannah who weeps over, uh, having a child. And then God hears her and gives her a

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child and that she has a really long song. And then she gives her son to the temple. And so in

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the section where they're talking about Jesus, it says this boy, Jesus grew in both wisdom and

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stature gaining favor with both God and man. Well, if he actually reads Samuel, it actually

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said, makes a statement here for Samuel two 26. It says, and the boy, Samuel continued to grow in

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stature in favor with the Lord and with people. It's not an accident that Luke is pulling that

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story because he's connecting this idea of Hannah and Samuel, this mother and this prophet to once

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again, this mother and this prophet, right? That Jesus, like Samuel is going to issue usher in a

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new kind of era and like a whole different kind of thing, you know? And of course, then you have

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connections to David and stuff. Like it's not an accident that those words show up. The text is

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really cool. We love the Bible. We were, it's a cool book. I don't know if you've read it, but

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it's real good. It is amazing how it's all linked together. It is. Yeah. You were talking about

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earlier and you were talking about how Mary is with him at the crucifixion. She's at the wedding

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in Cana where she's like, Hey, listen, they ran out of wine. Get this party started, please. Right.

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That is, that's my interpretation of this conversation, but, and Jesus calls her a woman.

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Yeah. Woman, which is not derogatory in the way that he says it. It's just fun to read it that

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way. Yeah. Yeah. If you read it that way to your wife though, maybe like rethink it or definitely

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don't say it to your mother. Have you, I mean, you've met my wife. Yeah. Like I'm not a dumb man.

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I'm not going to say those things, sir. I, how would that mean? What if your kids said, you said

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woman? Well, that probably wouldn't end well for you. All my kids are young teenagers. So Jesus is

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a little past that point, but still it's the whole thing of I'm, you know, I'm leaving you as my mom

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and I'm my own man. Right. You guys both experienced that, that I think sometimes, you know,

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women or moms can be overprotective, can have an agenda of their own, or maybe be thinking differently

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than their sons. And he just said, Hey, yeah, I get you, but this is what I'm doing instead.

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And there's actually times where Mary struggles with what Jesus is doing. Like when they're going

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out there and he's giving them some really hard sayings and they're, and people are saying like,

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Jesus is being real weird. And so like, she's like, Hey, you know, the family tries to go on and say,

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Hey, Jesus, come and talk to us, which we're going to talk about, like how he addresses it in a minute.

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But like, she doesn't always understand what he's about, but she is there throughout. She's there at

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his crucifixion. She's there at his resurrection. And from church history, we know that she's there

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through a lot of the time afterwards, especially with John, like John spends time with her from

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church tradition, that she is a significant part of the church moving forward. Mary in a very real

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way, even though she was his mother, was a disciple of Jesus. Well, it's crazy to think about too,

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that she had other children. They weren't big fans either of Jesus, of him having that calling.

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And as a woman having to balance all that, as your son is growing up, I mean, there is a lot to

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act there. Can you imagine though, that your brother claims to be like the guy, the foretold

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person to come in, overthrow, in your, in your head, like, what do you mean Jesus is going to

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overthrow Raoul? Come on. You mean the guy who couldn't read me and rasslin is gonna, is gonna.

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The last guy that did that got thrown in a pit and sold to. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't work so well.

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Yeah. Well, I was just thinking like, you're saying that and they're like, my brothers,

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I have four brothers, they came to mind. And I was like, yeah, if one of them claimed that, like,

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we would be all over that with mockery. Yeah. Like, like just with how we're all wired. Yeah.

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And it's, yeah. Though to be fair, if one of them started walking on the water, your opinion might change.

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Yeah. You know, it might start changing, you know? Yeah. But beyond Mary, there was a lot of women

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who actually were huge benefactors into Jesus's ministry. There was, I mean, off the top of my

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head, prominent women, there was Joanna, right? She was married to the guy who was in charge of

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manifesting Herod Antipas's court, who is the son of Herod the Great, who we're going to be talking

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about in the Kings and King of the series. But Herod Antipas, you know, fairly wealthy guy, right?

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Yeah. Makes the people who are wealthy today look like they got nothing. Yeah. Like he's real wealthy.

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And so she's a woman of some means and she is uniquely positioned to help Jesus with her

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resources. She's not only helping with his resources, she's actually one of three women that,

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depending on which biblical account and which gospel we're looking at, is one of the three

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women who actually is at Jesus's resurrection, is going to the tomb when Jesus is resurrected.

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Like she's not just some ancillary figure. Yes, she funds Jesus's ministry to go and preach the

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word and bring the gospel, but she's also actively involved in what he's actually doing. The implication

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here is that she's actually a disciple. I would believe so. Yeah. Like the text doesn't directly

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say that, but that's the implication here. She was with Jesus. She followed him, helped support

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his ministry, was there at the resurrection. Like, and for those of us who know the scriptures,

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there were not many people there at the resurrection, right? It was just a handful.

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And so the implication is here is that she was actually a devoted disciple of Jesus. Right.

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It's actually one of my beefs with Jesus, their God. Why didn't you make it a little more clear?

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Like you wrote this thing, you put this together, couldn't you have just said clearly so that there

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was less misunderstanding and less like wishy-washy back and forth. Hey, I think women are just as

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good as men. You're all my children and I have hopes and dreams and talents for you all. Like,

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why couldn't you just put that in there so we didn't have to have such discussions?

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The ironic thing is for about 1800 years of church history, there was very little issue.

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Yeah. Just you run, you really run into you, you run into it in sections, but like not in,

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not as a church whole, do people struggle with women actually serving in incapacity of ministry

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and sharing the gospel and things like that? Well, and I'm not a historian, but I've often wondered,

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it seems more so in the United States. Like if you go over, there's tons of female missionaries

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that are going and doing their thing. A lot of them that have chosen not to marry and they are

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leaving all kinds of things. But when it comes to the United States, oh, I don't know. Like,

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I don't know what that is. Maybe you guys know what that hold up or what that changes. I mean,

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do you feel like anytime Satan has the option to try to have an argument or corrupt what

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God intended, you know, that's his job. I have an opinion on it. I am, it's,

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this is not something that is a, that would be like, Hey, this is a theological fact. But the

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reality in America is we face very little to no persecution. And so we tend to argue about pointless

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things because I guarantee you, if we were being hunted for our lives and there were people sharing

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the gospel, we don't care if it's a woman or a man who's teaching. We are desiring to follow Jesus.

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And we're going to, we're going to set aside a lot of our differences in pursuit of actually

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following him. Well, and Paul says, I can't remember exactly where, but when he's talking

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about the gospel being preached, he's like, who cares if their motives are pure, like right or

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wrong, the gospel is still being proclaimed. Right. Which that's a little bit of a hard pill

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to swallow for some people, but we can disagree on this. But like, so if someone comes to me and is

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like, well, I don't think women should be allowed to preach, but there's a woman over there who is

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preaching and people are coming to know Jesus because of it. Yeah. At some point, like even if

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you don't think that should be happening, you should set your opinion aside because you actually

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have scriptural backing to say, just recognize what God is doing in the midst of that. The

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church history piece is kind of interesting because as like you were saying, there wasn't much,

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there actually wasn't much issue with this until denominations started coming into play.

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Like it was really when denominations started fracturing out and becoming their own, where they

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started to have their own opinions and reflections and interpretations on these things. Now I do want

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to specify, I don't want to say that there were no issues. Like there's always been issues of

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people disagreeing about it. I mean, I mean, but that's going back to like, yeah, people disagreeing

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about like Gnosticism and like Dota-ism and like all these different things going on in the first

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couple of centuries that of course women serving in ministry is going to be a topic at some point,

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but there is a thread all throughout church history of women serving faithfully and God blessing

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through church history, which we will talk about. I think that's in a couple of, so as a fact,

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I think we're going to have one of your pastors with us. Pastor Sarah is going to be coming back.

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We didn't scare her off too much last time, so she said she'd come back. So coming back,

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some of you had to say somebody's benefactor. So there's Joanna, there's Susanna who we don't

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know anything about except the fact that she's named, which is a big deal and that she provides

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other resources. And this is also, there are others that provide other resources. There is

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Mary Magdalene who is named. And the thing, the only thing that we know about Mary Magdalene for

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sure is that she had seven demons outside of her that were driven out. By the way, I want to

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clear up something that is really popular in should be in conversation, but is not actually

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biblical. Mary Magdalene is not a prostitute. That was a musing from Augustine where he was,

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he equated Mary Magdalene with Mary the prostitute. There is no implication in the text that those are

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the same person. Just be very careful when you're blogging, I guess it'd be the equivalent to what

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Augustine did, that you're actually talking about the right people in the right context,

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because a lot of times like Mary Magdalene has been portrayed as a prostitute and there's no

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indication that she was. In fact, the indication is that she was actually a very prominent disciple

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and minister post Jesus. Yep. Well, I think somebody who was lived a life of brokenness

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and then was healed with Jesus, it's going to be pretty powerful and persuasive. The passion

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and the purpose is going to be complete for her. She'd be all in. Yeah. Yeah. And I hear sometimes

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they also say that Jesus had a relationship with one of the two, which I don't find any evidence.

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That actually comes from the Gospel of Thomas and sometime we'll talk about why the Gospel of Thomas

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is not a reliable source for biblical authority, but most of that comes from the Gospel of Thomas

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or Gospel of Judas. And there is a reason that those books are not canonized. We won't get into

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them today, but there is substantial research on why those are not accepted. But that's a whole

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whole her camera. She's just finding those candles. She's pouring them out all over the place here.

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Sorry. She's outlining season three for us. Yeah, season three right there. So it's interesting in

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this position in Luke where Luke is mentioning all these women that are helping, you know,

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he's mentioning Joanna and Susanna, these other women, Mary Magdalene. You know what's missing

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from that list? Names of men. I don't think that's an accident by Luke, right? I think Luke is trying

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to actually like point out something here is that women are very involved in the ministry of Jesus.

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In fact, throughout the book of Luke, we're going to talk about this as we start talking about Jesus

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as disciples. Luke is constantly taking Jesus's teachings and showing how he's pairing them

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between men and women, right? And how it's directed at not one particular sex, but at the overall

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picture of humanity, right? The call of the kingdom is a call to humanity, not to a man or to a woman.

378
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,480
I think when you read the Bible as a whole, like if you look at,

379
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,000
I was saying earlier that I took all the scripture surrounding women at one point and read

380
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:13,240
all the context and read, you know, some of the rhetoric about it and things that even though

381
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:21,320
there is an argument for hierarchical things and specific passages, the overall context of the Bible

382
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:29,800
is equality and loving each other and, you know, partnership, right? We're all, even, you know,

383
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:35,160
you have Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. There's not, I mean, they're all in partnership together.

384
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,840
Right. Well, we talked about in the first episode in the series in the book of Genesis,

385
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:47,240
it's they rule, they reign, they subdue, they fill the earth, they are fruitful, they multiply.

386
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,360
There is no tell the man to go submit, you know, take over the world and subdue and multiply.

387
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:59,080
No, it's they, it's always they in that section. And so if the idea of the sacrifice of Jesus

388
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:06,680
is actually to reverse the curse that's brought on post Eden, right? Why would we live like the

389
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,960
curse still is enacted? So what did Jesus reverse the curse or didn't he? That's the question that

390
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,960
we're still going to be in a fallen world, but we are no longer fallen people because he changed

391
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,680
our very nature. Yeah. Through the very righteousness of God. In other words, he did. Yeah,

392
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,160
exactly. In other words, he did. He did. And backing up to Genesis again, when it says that

393
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,880
God was going to make a suitable helper, that phrase is the same phrase that is used for God

394
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:39,240
as my helper. Yeah. And so it's this idea of man, women and mutual submission to each other,

395
00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:43,640
fitting the full image of God, bringing the fullness of God. Huh, man, it feels like Paul

396
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,120
said something about men and women submit to each other. And yes, you know, right, which ties over

397
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:54,120
to that passage. And are you saying that Paul, the apostle knew what he was talking about?

398
00:34:54,120 --> 00:35:00,360
I absolutely. Yeah. And so when you're looking at the idea of women in ministry and wrestling

399
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,680
with this, you really got to look at the whole picture, right? You really got to look and see

400
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,640
that there were prominent women of this day and age who were following Jesus, right? Who were

401
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,680
disciples of Jesus. Yeah. So with that in mind, let's actually get into the disciples, right?

402
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,240
Because this is a piece where people, I feel like we have this conversation with people who have a

403
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,720
different theology, theological benth and ideal, right? And they say, well, but the disciples were

404
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:31,080
all men. Yes. No, the 12 disciples were men. And there's a good reason for them to all be men

405
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,600
because they were supposed to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, who by the way, were all men.

406
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:42,120
So it makes sense that you would have 12 men represent 12 men from to for Israel. But Jesus

407
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:47,000
had a lot more than 12 disciples. He had 12 that were part of his, like they ultimately were ended

408
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,800
up being called apostles. But we even know from the book of Acts that there was more than 12 that

409
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,880
followed him the entire time because they had two other people that they could choose to replace

410
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:02,360
Judas. So there was at least 14. Right. And for Matthew 10, when he sends them out, he sends

411
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:09,080
70 or 72 out. 70 or 72. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is a, there's a fun conversation about there in the

412
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,240
Greek that we're not going to get into today, but it actually connects to a piece of scripture in

413
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:17,320
the Old Testament. So go find that, have fun. And then we'll talk about it later. Yes. So when he's

414
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,920
sending them out in Matthew 10, he's sending a large group of people out. Well, and my math isn't

415
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:30,440
good, like super good, but I'm pretty sure 70 or 72 is more than 12. Yeah. Like last time I checked

416
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:39,000
70 or 72 is more than 12. And so, so the 12 are men. Absolutely. There's no denying that,

417
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:45,960
but there were other women who did follow Jesus and we have textual evidence for that. Yeah. And

418
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,920
generally speaking, the word disciple is going to be a masculine noun, generally speaking in Greek.

419
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,600
Now, a lot of these guys would have been just writing in very rudimentary Greek. So they

420
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,640
wouldn't have necessarily had like super polished Greek. Maybe Luke, because he has a doctor,

421
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,320
would have been a little bit more polished, but there is one occurrence of a disciple showing up

422
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:12,280
as a feminine noun and it's in an Acts 9 36 referring to Tabitha or my favorite way is Dorcas

423
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:18,440
because that's a great name. It's so good. I was actually having a conversation with somebody the

424
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,880
other day and they're like, why did they say like Tabitha also known as Dorcas? Like that's really

425
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,840
confusing. And I was like, well, it's confusing, but they came from like a place of like multiple

426
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,720
languages. And I was like, for example, we have a guy who goes to our church. He goes by Joshua.

427
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,480
His name is Jeho. And I was like, if I say, I was like, I was talking to Jeho and somebody's like,

428
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,760
who is that? I was like, oh, also known as Joshua. Yeah. Right. Like it's actually not that strange

429
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,800
of a thing when you're dealing with a bunch of cultures interacting. It's actually pretty

430
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,520
common. Yeah. We're actually going to talk about Tabitha I think a little bit more next week. Yeah.

431
00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:00,120
Yeah. And there's even in Paul's writings, Romans 16 has multiple references of women who were

432
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:06,120
either in leadership or considered apostles. Right. And so that's another conversation. Yep.

433
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:11,640
That's next week's conversation, which you guys will never guess. We got Pastor Nick's wife to

434
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,280
be with us next week. So that's going to be fun. Buckle up because I'm sure the desert is going

435
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:21,400
to be real hot on that one. That is it. And that's a common phrase we say, by the way, the desert is

436
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:26,200
hot. When Nick was on an episode, we said it apparently like 30 times and she's like, you guys

437
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,360
say that a lot. And so I, we just, we made her a t-shirt and we periodically just throw it into

438
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,960
things. Like even when we're preaching, I'll be like, yeah, they're wandering the desert. And I

439
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:41,640
don't know if you guys know this, but the desert's really hot. So it's definitely been a thing for

440
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,800
like a year with the idea of also the disciples. Remember when I was talking about when Mary and

441
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,120
her brothers, his brothers and sisters come and they're like, Hey Jesus, you're getting kind of

442
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,200
weird. Right. And so they come there, but there's like so many people like meeting with them that

443
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:59,000
they can't actually get there to talk to them. And so somebody comes and says, Hey, your mother and

444
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:06,600
brothers are here. And he says, who are my mothers and brothers? I tell you the truth that, and then

445
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:15,080
he says gesturing to his disciples, these are my mother and my brothers and my sisters. Okay.

446
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,960
Gesturing to his disciples, he adds this thing about sisters because it's just as mother and

447
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,240
brothers are, are coming. He has this thing about sisters. Now it's really weird for him to do that.

448
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:30,440
If there aren't women there that are following him and it's something you can easily read right

449
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:36,200
past, but it's pretty blatant in the text that Jesus gestures to his disciples and says, these

450
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:42,120
are my disciples, my mother, my brothers, my sisters. And so it's not a half baked theory

451
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,640
that there are women who are following Jesus and are actually a discipling with him.

452
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:56,440
Yeah. I don't understand. I mean, I'm not a traditionalist, but yeah, you said that like

453
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,720
you were going to shock us when you came in here. Well, she's like, I'm not a traditionalist. Like

454
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:05,080
just, I hope I won't get kicked out of this podcast. I'm like, clearly you've not listened to enough

455
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:12,120
episodes of us talking. Women are influencers. And I'm not, I'm going to fall short of women rule the

456
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:19,160
world, but they have the babies, they raise the babies, they do everything of life. How on earth

457
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:27,400
could they not be influencing in every single spot? To me, some of this argument is mute. Like,

458
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:33,720
and if a man wants to make that argument, that then hopefully he has a daughter and it shuts him

459
00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:41,160
up. Cause it will. Yeah. I mean, I feel that way. And you know, I want my daughter to have every

460
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:46,920
opportunity and that my boys, I had three boys and one girl and that one girl can wrap those three

461
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:55,000
boys up lickety split. Yep. And they will honor her and support her and they love her and give her

462
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:01,480
equal status of intelligence and everything else. I don't know how it gets corrupted or how it gets

463
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:08,680
changed later to have that conflict other than if people could get all get along and husbands and

464
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:15,560
wives could work as a team on a consistent basis in the area of Jesus, we rule the world. Right.

465
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:22,120
Together. You might say that we would subdue the earth, fill it and multiply. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

466
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:28,200
And certainly we're not doing that now. So the other side is winning. Like we should come to

467
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:35,720
our senses and figure out that when we live in a community of love and support, then we lift each

468
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:42,360
other up. Yeah. Yeah. And then we make differences, you know, and that can be ongoing. It can, you

469
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,560
know, never a straight line. It's always got like some ups and downs and curves here and there.

470
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,240
Yeah. I completely agree with you, but you know, the main, one of the main reasons we're doing this

471
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:55,400
mini series is because we do get a lot of questions about that specifically. We have listeners from

472
00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:01,400
the Pentecostal to the conservative bent, right? And, and so we get periodic questions or periodic

473
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,400
statements about like, that's not what the Bible teaches. So that's what we're doing over the next

474
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,680
eight weeks is we're methodically going through and talking about like, what does the Bible actually

475
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,680
teach? So like the fact that people say, well, Jesus didn't have any disciples who were women.

476
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:19,320
The text is pretty clear. He did. In fact, one of the best examples is in Luke, when they go to Mary

477
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,600
Martha's house. Now I've heard this talked about in sermons a million times, right? And like, then you

478
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,640
should be a Mary, not a Martha. And first of all, Martha's also make dinner. So that's not a bad

479
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,280
thing. Like food is good. I like food. I was like, so if you want to be a Martha, even if you're a

480
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:41,320
dude, go be a Martha. Cause I love food. Right. But it says specifically that Mary sat at the feet,

481
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:46,280
sat at the feet, which is a euphemism. It's a turn of phrase. An idiom is what the word is.

482
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:52,920
It also says in other words that Paul sat at the feet of Gamaliel, right? This is what you do. If

483
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,120
you're a disciple, you sit at the feet of the rabbi. So it's not a, it's not just a random turn

484
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,960
of phrase that she's sitting at his feet. They're not talking about her location. They're talking

485
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:09,400
about her vocation. So her vocation is actually follower of Jesus. We've talked about like that

486
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,000
there's more than 12, you know, I was like, when Jesus started talking to them about, he's like,

487
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,640
Hey, you have to eat my flesh and drink my blood. It's some of them can't handle it and they leave.

488
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:25,000
Okay. And then there's still 12. So clearly there's more than 12 there, right? Yeah. I don't

489
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,520
know whether or not Mary and Martha were following all the time, but they were at least following

490
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:34,280
part of the time. Well, that verse gets me worked up anyway, cause I think people use it in a lot

491
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:40,600
of different ways. They even compare busy type people to more solace type people or people that

492
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,480
want to sit and they kind of hit those personalities against each other. Like one's better than the

493
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:52,360
other. It's like, Oh my gosh, I don't understand. It's more spiritual if you are a sitter and not

494
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:57,480
a doer. Like, okay. It doesn't even make sense with the talents and gifts that God has given.

495
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:03,400
It is silly to do that. Well, so one of the points that Bailey will make in his book in this section

496
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,120
of here, she will talk about that is that the account of Martha is distracted, not burdened

497
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:14,520
with this serving and to be distracted from something you have to be like to something,

498
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,120
you have to be distracted from something. So she's actually being distracted from what

499
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,520
God has like, what Jesus is there to do, which is to make disciples to something else that she

500
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:27,800
thinks is really important. She's like, why are you learning at the feet when you should be helping

501
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,680
me cook? Because clearly that's what we have to do. Missing the fact that Jesus is actually calling

502
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:40,280
her to come and sit at the feet. And by the way, like doers versus sitters, it takes a lot to learn

503
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,680
at a rabbi's feet. So I hate to break the people who are like, Oh, you know, being a sitter and

504
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:51,240
and you got to do there too. You're not just like, you're actually learning to become like the rabbi.

505
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:57,480
And I'm not a good rule follower. Neither was Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. That, you know,

506
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:03,480
he broke a lot of rules and made a lot of new stuff that wasn't that way, which technically

507
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:11,080
today should give us freedom that, you know, there isn't one way always to get something done or,

508
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:16,520
you know, that you have to do things a certain way to have them be effective. I mean,

509
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:21,320
if you look at healing, he does it different every single time. I mean, he created us all.

510
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,720
I have often thought that spitting in the mud was the right way to heal people.

511
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,000
Spitting in the mud was the right way to heal people, right? Well, and like to your point

512
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,520
right there is like Jesus is defending Mary's right to be a disciple. Like we get this conversation

513
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:40,120
about like, are you a sitter? Are you a doer? And Jesus is actually saying, Martha, don't judge

514
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:45,480
Mary for her choice to be a disciple. She's allowed to be a disciple. Like don't get into this.

515
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:51,480
You know, that's the true purpose, right? To learn what he was teaching and then be able to

516
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:56,920
know and go and spread the good news. You can feed people all day long, but if you can't have a

517
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:03,000
conversation about what Jesus's true intentions were, it's not really helpful. I mean, that's what

518
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:09,320
he wants from us today. We can go and do all kinds of things, but if we lack our personal relationship

519
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:14,280
with Jesus, we're missing the point. Well, that's not even to say doing things is bad. I mean,

520
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:19,800
he says that I turned like when I was hungry, you fed me when I was thirsty, you gave me water.

521
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,560
When I was had no clothes, you clothed me. When I was in jail, you visited me when I sick, you took

522
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:28,920
care of me. Well, when did we do this? When you did it for the least of these. So there is an

523
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,480
implication that like a changed heart causes you to do something different. In fact, we've said it.

524
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,960
We said it this way on the podcast before. I don't care where your theology is. If it doesn't cause

525
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:44,680
you to be more like Jesus. Well, most times, at least for me, I get interrupted and I get pretty

526
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:50,520
frustrated and ticked off about it. But a lot of times it's the interruptions that God is looking

527
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:57,480
to do something, right? We are people of a planned, you know, planned thing. But if we're in charge of

528
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,360
that plan all the time and doing it, then how does God break through into that? Right. Right. And

529
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:08,440
even that whole concept, it's a precarious balance all the time because we say, oh, we're going to

530
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:13,880
feed people. But do we actually talk to the people on the street when I walk by them? Like, it's.

531
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:19,160
If you're Spencer's sister, then the answer is yes. It is very true. Yeah, very true. She's just,

532
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:24,920
she's just a very giving, generous person. Yeah, it's really interesting because I mean,

533
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,320
being inconvenienced and thing like when we try to put God in a box, it's like trying to put a

534
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,320
cardboard box over a lion and being like, OK, nothing's going to happen. It's going to be safe.

535
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,880
What do you think that lion is going to do as soon as a cardboard box gets put over it? Right.

536
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,240
Like it's going to break through that box and be like, no, we're going to do things a little

537
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:45,880
differently. Right. And when you have that moment, there's that moment of being uncomfortable,

538
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,760
that moment of uncertainty, then we still try to take back in control under our hands and we

539
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,840
could be like, OK, so what's the outcome going to be? And then when Jesus is really like,

540
00:47:54,840 --> 00:48:00,760
that's my concern. The outcome is my concern. Your concern is actually doing what you've been

541
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:06,520
called to do. One of the things I always find particularly interesting is there's a type of

542
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,720
person who claims to follow Jesus that I'm going to call a heresy hunter. Right. They're people

543
00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:18,120
that like their entire job is to root out heresy and root out people. Yeah, very true. Jesus tells

544
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,920
me parables about, he says, go and collect the wheat and the weeds. Yeah. I will go and figure

545
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,880
out which ones don't belong. Your job is to go and collect. You go and collect all the fish.

546
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:33,160
My angels will take care of taking care of the batfish. Right. They're going to be the ones to

547
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:40,520
take them out. This is my job. Your job is to go and collect and to speak and harvest. And like,

548
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,720
and it's my job to figure out what's actually substantial or not. But a lot of times we're like,

549
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:50,680
oh, we're going to go figure out what are the tears. Right. We want to fight the tears. We're

550
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:55,960
going to cut those tears out. Yeah, that's not our job. We're not responsible for that. Like to your

551
00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:03,000
point, our job is to go and be faithful, right? To love, share the gospel, do good, talk about Jesus,

552
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:09,400
represent the kingdom of God in the world, wherever we go. It hurts my heart. And I'm sure you can

553
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,640
relate to this. What I have heard of your heart. Yes, I heard your heart on an often basis. No,

554
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:20,360
what I'm going to say. I have four kids that were raised in the ministry and recently they

555
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,200
have a cousin that they have grown up with that they're really good friends who married a man

556
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,840
who is going into the ministry. And before she got married, she came over and all my kids are

557
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,720
adults now and was like, okay, tell me what you think about this and tell me, you know, is this a

558
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:38,760
good thing? And you know, I'm nervous about being a minister's wife and this, and you grew up in this

559
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:46,600
bubble. So what does that mean? And initially all my kids said all this negative stuff. And they

560
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,440
came back and told me this. I wasn't in the conversation that they came back and told me this.

561
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:56,680
And I was like, oh, that hurts my heart that they're saying all these, like a lot of the things of

562
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:02,200
hypocrisy or people holding them to a standard that they aren't even being held to themselves.

563
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:09,000
Just their thoughts about how people in ministry should be versus somehow that's separate from

564
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:15,240
themselves, which were all called to be that way. And then later after they had a discussion

565
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:20,280
amongst themselves about, Oh, I feel kind of bad that I told her all these bad things when this is,

566
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,920
you know, where God's calling her and it seems clear that's what she wants. And so in their

567
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:31,560
discussion amongst themselves, they also said, it's also the best things about our life that

568
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:37,000
have happened. And so they went back to tell her, Hey, we got a little caught up in some of the

569
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,640
negative things or some of the things that were really hard about our life. But I just want to

570
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:48,280
say also in saying yes, and in them saying yes in their own lives, as they grew older, it also

571
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:54,520
became some of the best parts of their journey and opportunities that they never would have had. And

572
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,920
I think sometimes people look at Christians or people look at the church and they're like,

573
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:03,240
I don't want to be a part of that because it doesn't look good. It doesn't feel good.

574
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:07,640
These people that are pointing out all the cracks are not people I want to hang out with.

575
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:15,560
And that makes me sad because that was not Jesus's intention ever. And as a person representing him

576
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:20,520
or wanting to represent him, which is all of our jobs, by the way. And if you want to know about

577
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,400
women in the Bible, open up your Bible. That's what I want to go back and say about that. Like

578
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,560
read every scripture and then get some friends together and talk about it and ask the Holy

579
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:35,800
Spirit to come into your life and tell you the truth. You don't got to listen to us or anybody

580
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:41,320
else. Like he will reveal it to you. Listen to her. You don't have to listen to us. Just

581
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,960
turn off this podcast. No, it's still good. Don't listen to us anymore. Everything you hear and see,

582
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:51,000
you should be thinking about and asking God if it's the truth. And he can speak to you through all

583
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:57,320
kinds of things, including this podcast. And I hope that for everyone listening. But at the same time,

584
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:03,560
he wants to speak to you. So you should listen. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of times we fail to

585
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,400
realize that the things that are sometimes the biggest struggle are actually the biggest

586
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:13,560
blessings. I've been married for 14 years and it has not been easy any of those years. It has,

587
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:20,840
however, been fantastic and worth every minute. I've had kids for five years and I can't think of a

588
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:27,240
month that it was easy, but it has been fantastic. You know, right. This is also comes back to a

589
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:30,680
conversation I have with people about the kingdom of God too, because we tell people that, you know,

590
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,440
if you accept Jesus, he's going to come into your life and it's going to be like, you're great and

591
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:39,000
fantastic. And all that stuff is true. It's also going to be difficult. Yeah. The Christian life

592
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:44,280
is not easy. Yeah. Like you're, you have to become the kind of person who's willing to lay down your

593
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:50,200
life on behalf of other people. Jesus's coronation event was getting crucified on a cross. Yeah. And

594
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:56,120
he was God made flesh. Our life is not going to be easy, but it's going to be worth it. Yeah.

595
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:02,120
Yeah. And to tell somebody that following Jesus is easy is a disservice to them. And quite frankly,

596
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,760
it's a flat out lie because that's not how following Jesus is. Following Jesus is a lifelong

597
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:11,720
pursuit of learning how to put your life on display for the kingdom of God to bring, bring God's kids

598
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:17,000
home in this world. And when you're going out into your community to be Christ to your community,

599
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:22,520
Jesus lays it out in Matthew 10. He's like, it's actually going to suck. Yeah. So that's the Spencer

600
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,880
translation right there. People are going to mess with you and they're going to be like, oh, I'm

601
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:30,040
doing good for God because I'm messing with you. Yeah. Jesus says you're, you are going to be

602
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:35,880
sheep going out amongst wolves. You're going, he goes on to say, you're going to be thrown in prison.

603
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,760
You're going to be rocked. You're going to be run out of towns. All of these things. He's like all

604
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:46,920
for the sake of it. Yeah. Like, well, sometimes I think maybe that's why women are built or maybe

605
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:52,680
why women are more responsive. And maybe this is a sexist remark towards, I mean, as myself, as a

606
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:59,880
woman, who knows if it is, I have full editing power. I'm just thinking as a man, I mean, any

607
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:08,440
woman that has a child gets it, gets it. You guys don't have children. Also any woman that has to

608
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:17,960
work with a man who treats them as a lesser person as a result of being a woman also culturally

609
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:25,880
has a way to deal with that already. Men don't have that. Like I'm trying to think, I'll think

610
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,840
of it here in a minute where we were, there was an example that just recently happened. It'll come

611
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:37,320
to my perimenopausal mind here where if it had been like a circumstance where a woman was in it

612
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,400
and they were, you know, given a hard time, but if it had been a man, it would have been treated

613
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:47,720
completely different if that makes sense. Yeah. So sometimes when I think about how women are

614
00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:55,880
responded to Jesus, that they would have already understood all that intuitively if they were adult

615
00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:02,280
women with children or things like that, that they would have been able to acquiesce or humble

616
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:08,200
themselves to that role in a kinder way than potentially a man, if that makes sense. Well,

617
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,640
and I think there's something inherent in the message that those of you who feel like you're

618
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:17,480
on the outside are being welcomed in. Right. If you are an oppressed gender, it's going to

619
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:23,080
be very appealing. It's going to resonate with your heart because you're like on a very real level,

620
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,840
people sit there and they're like, life isn't supposed to be this way. Like you can feel it

621
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:31,480
because we're supposed to resonate to the natural rhythms of creation, but creation is flawed

622
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:37,480
because of sin. Right. I was like, but we know like in our core, we can feel it like something's not

623
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,760
right. Like it's kind of one of those reasons, like often you don't have to tell somebody they're a

624
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,520
sinner for them to actually know that they're out of sync with who God wants them to be. Yeah.

625
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:50,040
Right. Like you, what you're helping to do is present a reality and an invitation to a reality

626
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:57,480
to be a different kind of person. Yeah. Well, you only know what you know. So I was raised in a

627
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:04,440
divided home spiritually. And so I saw one side of things and I saw another side of things.

628
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:10,360
What is the right side of things when you're a kid looking towards that? And then I had my own

629
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:19,560
personal journey within that, unless I stay willing to explore those things, it doesn't allow that

630
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:25,400
change to happen for God inside of me. If I land over here or I land over here and I just say,

631
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:30,520
that's it, which a lot of us do, we believe truths that come into our life at a certain time. And we

632
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:35,720
don't question them again until we deliberately have something that we encounter like this,

633
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:40,840
that we're like, is this really true? What I believe for the last 20 years? Look at that.

634
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:46,280
She's narrowing in on why we're doing this podcast series. That's perfect. I love that.

635
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,760
Part of the reason why a lot of bigger name pastors actually get called heretics is because

636
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,280
in the earlier years they will have said something. And Ben has heard me say this,

637
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,040
if you're given a chance to preach from the pulpit of that church, you're going to speak

638
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:03,400
heresy at some point. It's going to happen. Not on purpose, but probably will. But you probably

639
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,440
will. I'm not going to say you probably will. I'm going to say you will. You will. Probably

640
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:11,320
will be on accident because that's usually how it goes. But a lot of bigger name pastors,

641
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,600
in their earlier years, they've said one thing and then the later years are saying something else

642
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:19,080
because they have a deeper understanding of scripture, the work of Jesus in their lives.

643
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,440
And they're like, okay, I had this wrong before. But a lot of times people will be like, well,

644
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,760
they said this 30 years ago. I was like, well, they might've been 20 and dumb at the time when

645
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:31,320
they said that. Well, those kinds of people drive me crazy. No offense. But again, when you're

646
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,640
sitting there listening to a preacher, I'm married to one. I have to listen to the man that I'm

647
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:42,200
married every day with, that I live with. That's a pastor. I listen to him every Sunday and I don't

648
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:47,400
say, oh, he should have wore a different shirt or, oh, he just said mean things to me yesterday.

649
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:56,120
I say, what does God have for me today when he's preaching a sermon? Not he as my husband, but

650
00:57:56,120 --> 00:58:01,560
he as God speaking to me on this Sunday morning. And it would take care of a lot of that. Like

651
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:08,760
I've been in ministry a long time now. I've seen all kinds of awful things happen and people falling

652
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:14,120
off of the pedestal that other people have put them on and those types of things. And guess what?

653
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:22,600
God speaks to people through all of that. He uses all of that for his good. And it may not be able

654
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:26,760
to see it at the time or you may not be able to even think it at the time because you're hurting

655
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:33,640
or you're suffering some kind of consequence. But God is still in all that, still being God and still

656
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:39,560
letting people grow in him and see things out of it. It drives me a little crazy when people

657
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:44,520
write on their comment card or their comment card for this, oh, you shouldn't have said this or you

658
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:49,080
shouldn't have said that. Well, let's look again at the whole context. Right? I have a great

659
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:54,840
receptacle for those kind of comic cards. So we actually get some pretty funny comments on like

660
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,280
different videos and stuff that we do. I always tell people, I was like, you can make whatever

661
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,040
comment you want. We're responsible for content. You can make all the comments you want. We may

662
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:06,920
or may not answer you because like, I was like, quite honestly, if you're making a statement about

663
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:11,000
that you don't like our beards or you don't like our opinions, like start your own podcast.

664
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,360
Yeah, start your own podcast. You also don't have to listen. Like we're here to have an authentic

665
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:18,120
conversation. We invite people on here who we don't always see everything eye to eye with because

666
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:23,240
we want to have real conversations because faith, faithful followers of Jesus need to have ways to

667
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:27,560
just have these conversations. Coming back to the teachings of Jesus and this idea of like, how did

668
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:33,400
Jesus interact with women? In the book of Luke, Kenneth Bailey has a ton of examples of how

669
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,920
Jesus is speaking into and he's using these dual parables. And I'm just kind of going to go through

670
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,880
these really quick. So in his first sermon, when he goes in Nazareth, he talks about two stories out

671
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:47,080
of tradition. There's the story of the woman of Zarephath. And then there's the story of the man

672
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:53,800
Naaman the Cyrene. Now, both of them are Gentiles and both are heroes of faith. So he names both a

673
00:59:53,800 --> 01:00:00,120
woman and a man, both Gentiles. Like this is part of Jesus' regular teaching. Then in 536, he talks

674
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:04,200
about the mending of a garment, which is typically a task of a woman and also the making of wine,

675
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,520
which is typically the work of men. He's talking about like these two different kinds of jobs,

676
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:13,400
two different genders, but he's using it for the same exact illustrative purposes on this invitation

677
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,720
into the kingdom life. Jesus is concerned for the outcast and the sinner. There's a woman who's

678
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,640
rejected at the house of Simon. And then there's the parable of the Pharisee and they call him the

679
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:27,160
publican tax collector in Luke 18. There's two parables about prayer being answered. The first

680
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,440
is about this friend at midnight that keeps knocking on your door and won't leave you alone.

681
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:37,400
And that's definitely Spencer. I need bread. No. And then there's this responsible for sending

682
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:42,760
reels at midnight. Yeah. And then there's a story about this woman, this indifferent judge, this guy

683
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:49,240
who's like, listen, I don't fear God nor people, but if I don't take care of her, she's going to

684
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:54,840
drive me insane. Right? Like it's both man and woman again. And this is parable of the mustard seed

685
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,840
planting done by men linked with the kneading of leaven into dough, which is typically the work of

686
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:03,160
a woman. Now that's just a quick spattering, but Kenneth Bailey notes in his book that he's found

687
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:08,600
27 pairs of cases of men and women in the gospel of Luke alone, where they're pairing these two

688
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:13,960
ideas of this is directed towards men, directed towards women. Jesus himself in his teaching

689
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:20,840
is always talking about how do men and women engage the gospel? Like it's not just for men.

690
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:25,720
It's not a story just for men. It's not a story just for women. It's a story for both of us in like,

691
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:31,160
how do you actually live out the principle and be God's people on earth? And then there's like

692
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:35,560
famous interactions that he has, like there's this woman caught in adultery, which we've talked about

693
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:43,400
a number of times on the podcast, right? It's a really weird story because immediately you're

694
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:49,560
like, well, where's the guy now you've been married. How many years? Long time. Yeah. And you, so I,

695
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:54,600
I think you're aware that when there is a union between two people, two people have to be there.

696
01:01:55,240 --> 01:02:01,400
And so if you're caught in the very act, there should theoretically be two people there, right?

697
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:06,760
And yet there's this woman who's caught and she's the one thrown out and they're like, well, the law

698
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:14,760
says you need to stone her. This is a setup of literally biblical proportions. Well, it,

699
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:20,200
speaking of who we spoke of earlier, Mary, wasn't that her consequence? What she should have

700
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:27,160
happened to her is be stoned. So it's kind of thematic that he, you know, somebody that is caught in

701
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:33,960
in something. I mean, in that, in Mary's case, God had that happen to her. In this person's case,

702
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:38,440
she may be made, made a wrong choice or maybe was forced into it. How do we know?

703
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:44,760
All we know for, for certain is that Jesus confronts the religious leaders in her hypocrisy

704
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:50,760
with knowledge that makes him back away. And then the way that he interacts with the woman caught

705
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:58,040
in sin is with grace, is with grace and, and gentleness. And, and it's not that he doesn't

706
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:03,080
call her to something else, but he refuses to treat her as anything less than a human being.

707
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:08,200
This is who Jesus is. We have a similar story about the woman at the well in the gospel of

708
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:15,240
John, right? And she is, depending on how you interpret the story, has had multiple husbands

709
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:19,480
and a lot of different like situations like that. But when she is confronted with the nature of who

710
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:24,920
Jesus is and the fact that Messiah has come and he's even willing to come and visit Samaria,

711
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:31,400
she becomes a missionary because she goes and tells the entire town and then starts talking to

712
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:37,800
the entire region about who this Jesus character is to actually tell the story, which by the way,

713
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:42,440
I don't know if you guys know this, that's what pastors do. They tell the story.

714
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:49,000
That story in particular drives me crazy also because in the culture of that time,

715
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:53,000
she wouldn't have had a lot of choices. It's not like she was rule of the roost going out and saying,

716
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:58,440
I'll have this husband, this husband, this husband, right? I mean, she was surviving is what she was

717
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:04,760
doing. And even though all those things happened, look at the influence she had. So she must've been

718
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:10,280
a pretty great woman. Even though all those things happened, because if she was a piece of trash,

719
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:17,960
how would she be influencing people? Right? So she had influence despite those things happening.

720
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:25,560
So he saw the inside of her regardless of the outside and she responded in love to it.

721
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,520
Yeah. And was committed from that point on.

722
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,720
This guy's for real for me. Started preaching the gospel.

723
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:40,360
Yeah. How do people overcome? I work in sales in my regular job and they always talk about-

724
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,720
Regular job. Well, one of the things, I do a lot of things,

725
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:48,280
but anyway, I've learned a lot about sales in general. That wasn't my intention, but one of the

726
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:53,320
things they talk about is that sales is an easy job. You're trying to get someone to buy something,

727
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:57,160
right? And how do you do that and that kind of thing. But one of the things that they talk as

728
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:03,240
a person, you have to figure out why, what is your motivation behind what you want to do?

729
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:09,320
Because when you hit hard times or hard sales or whatever it is, your tendency is going to want

730
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:16,920
to be to quit. So these people's why, these disciples, these women that followed after Jesus

731
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:22,840
figured out their why early on. And it was enough for them to hold onto through all the

732
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:29,400
things, watching Jesus die on the cross, having everybody go out looking to kill anybody else

733
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:35,720
that was associated with him, that they were able to hold on to their why or that personal thing that

734
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:44,200
Jesus did for them to go on and change the world. Really. Yeah. Yeah. To the point with all of that

735
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:51,400
is that Jesus sees the value. He respects the person and he calls the gold out, right? Like he

736
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:56,360
sees what he sees the image of God and the people and he calls them out. And like that's the way

737
01:05:56,360 --> 01:06:01,480
that we're supposed to be man, woman doesn't matter. Like we call the image out and we call them to a

738
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:06,120
life of Jesus. There's another story in the book of the Bible where it talks about the woman with

739
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:11,160
the issue of blood, right? And she quotes from, she remembers some scripture that it says that

740
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,280
there's healing in his wings, which by the way, I don't know if you know the conifote of the

741
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:18,840
zetiot, which is the tassels on the end of the robe that they have that that's called their wings.

742
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:24,760
And so when she reaches out and she touches the conifote of his zetiot, recognizing this passage

743
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:29,000
of the Messiah has healing in his wings, right? So when she, if I can just touch this cloak,

744
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:35,560
recognizing scripture, right? And Jesus recognizes it and he sees her. But one of the things that I

745
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:42,680
think is really compelling is he addresses her as he says, daughter of Abraham, which we read right

746
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:48,280
over because we're like, yep, daughter of Abraham, Israel. Yeah, I get it. But she was unclean. She

747
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:52,680
was on the ground. Like she would not have been called like a daughter of Abraham because daughter

748
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:58,520
of Abraham is a term of respect. Jesus sees her. And not unlike how God sees Hagar in the desert,

749
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:05,560
Hagar in the desert. He is the God who sees her and recognizes her and gives her respect and compassion.

750
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:11,640
Well, I could be misquoting this, but I think I've read that when reading that passage,

751
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:18,360
one of the things is that it was she had no ability to control that. Correct. So it wasn't

752
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:23,560
that she was being punished or anything. It was actually potentially for his glory that she

753
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:31,480
suffered all that time before this redemption to happen later on in showing the power of Jesus

754
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:37,720
to be able to heal her that, you know, sometimes we get mixed up that these bad things are happening

755
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:45,320
for some kind of reason or that kind of thing. But that this particular situation for her was to

756
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:52,200
she suffered. I mean, as her cause of suffering was to give glory to Jesus later on, she didn't

757
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:56,440
even know any of that. Yeah. And her boldness in that. So like we often just read that like,

758
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:01,000
oh, well, she went and touched the tassels of his robe. Right. Well, if she was unclean,

759
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:05,160
she would have actually been required to keep distance from other people. Right.

760
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:09,880
And the passage actually specifically tells us that there was a vast crowd around Jesus.

761
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:14,440
Yeah. So what she's essentially doing is she's bringing her filth into the crowd so she can get

762
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:20,040
to Jesus. Right. To talk about a boldness. Like she's like, I know I should not be going through

763
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:24,840
this crowd, but there's Messiah. I need to touch the tassels of his robe so I can be healed.

764
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:30,280
Yeah. Right. Desperation. Yeah. And the only reason I ever give any pushback on sicknesses

765
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:33,720
so that the glory of God can be revealed is I think sometimes people can take that and they

766
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:38,520
can twist it. Absolutely. I know that God is always good and that God desires his kids to be

767
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:42,680
healthy. You know, I know that because I have kids and I desire them to be healthy all the time too.

768
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:47,640
One, because I don't like them sneezing on me and two, because I don't like them being sick.

769
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:55,160
Wow. I was like, but I do recognize that God doesn't always heal because he is in control

770
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,560
of the entire universe and he has a much broader picture than I do. Yeah. That's always his will.

771
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:04,520
It doesn't mean necessarily he's going to. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Like I never want

772
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:09,640
my kids to be sick. And if I could prevent them from being sick, I don't know that would be good

773
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:13,720
for them always. Yeah. Because there is something in sickness that actually helps you actually grow

774
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:19,000
as a person too. Well, are you fans of The Chosen? Oh yeah. Yes. He has a conversation. The big old

775
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:24,920
fans of The Chosen. Which disciple, forgive me, which disciple is it that actually says he has

776
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:29,320
a conversation in that show where he says, hey, you've healed these other people. How come you

777
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:34,520
haven't healed me? Yeah. Did you watch that one? And Jesus gives them an answer. I mean, a kind of

778
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:41,080
a interpreted answer from what the Bible would say about that. Yeah. But it was not an easy answer.

779
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:47,640
No. I didn't think. But I think also a truthful one, like that we all have to rectify our own

780
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:54,200
faith with God in the crosses that we're bearing for our own lives. Like it might be physical for

781
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:58,520
one person. It could be a lot different for someone else. And certainly people that are outside of the

782
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:04,440
United States that are being persecuted have their own things to bear. Yeah. We will go a little bit

783
01:10:04,440 --> 01:10:07,640
deeper on healing in our next mini series, which we're actually going to talk about the gifts of

784
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:12,760
the spirit. But we're going to talk about that a little bit deeper because I think sometimes

785
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:19,000
believing that Jesus is always going to heal and praying with that kind of faith is absolutely the

786
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:25,800
way that you need to always pray. But if the answer doesn't come that you want, you always have to know

787
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:31,080
that God is good. Yeah. And those two things you have to hold in tandem because there's really easy

788
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:35,720
to cross too far from one to the other. And just because something didn't happen the way you thought

789
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:41,240
it should does not mean that God is not good. And so what you do is it causes you to actually press

790
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:46,600
into relationship and be like, God, what were you doing here? Like, help me understand, you know?

791
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:50,600
There are some things we're just not going to understand. I took a class because healing is an

792
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:56,040
interest of mine. I feel like I'd like to know more. And I'd certainly love to tap into whatever

793
01:10:56,040 --> 01:11:00,840
power God wants to for me to pray for people and get them healed. And I watched all these interviews

794
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:06,280
of people who had a healing ministry and would be considered gifted in healing. And they were

795
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:12,360
talking about all the times that they personally had people come to them and asked for healing

796
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:17,640
and it didn't happen. And here they are known with this title of being a healer and having a healing

797
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:24,360
ministry. Yet this person that they were so close to, it didn't happen. And it was fascinating just

798
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:30,280
to listen to their own personal struggle of how can you do so much here, Jesus? But what about this

799
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:35,720
person that I'm struggling with and what that did to their relationships and such? It was mind blowing,

800
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:42,040
really. And it requires a level of maturity to recognize that one, you don't know everything.

801
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:46,680
And then two, that you need to be faithful even when the answers don't turn out the way you want

802
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:51,400
them to. I was going to say we have one more encounter with Jesus that we need to talk.

803
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:55,640
Psycho Phoenician woman. You know, we're just coming back to this idea of like who, how Jesus

804
01:11:55,640 --> 01:12:03,400
interacts with different people. There's also the psycho Phoenician woman. I'll probably leave that

805
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:10,280
in because that's pretty good. The Syrophoenician woman where like she is not a Jew, right? And she

806
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:14,440
comes and she asked Jesus for a miracle. And Jesus said, he replies to this thing where people take

807
01:12:14,440 --> 01:12:18,760
away harsher than it actually would have been in that language, which is you can't give to what's

808
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,840
meant for the kids, the dogs, right? People, they're like, oh, he's calling her dog. Well,

809
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:27,000
this culture, it doesn't actually mean that the same way. It's not as harsh as it sounds,

810
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:31,480
but that she responds in faith, right? She says, but even the dogs are allowed the table scraps,

811
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:37,320
right? And Jesus is incredibly impressed by her faith. This foreign woman, which by the way,

812
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:45,560
there's also a foreign man who is a Roman centurion who also Jesus recognizes his faith.

813
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:51,240
So it's interesting that there's once again, a pairing here of a foreign woman and a foreign

814
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,960
man, both of who recognize the authority of Jesus. He was impressed by their faith.

815
01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:01,160
And to close out today, we need to talk about the death and resurrection of Jesus. Yeah.

816
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:06,680
Because we know the story. You went to the cross, died, was buried three days later, rose again.

817
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:12,360
And then when he was rose, when he came out from the grave, who were the first people that he

818
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:19,320
entrusted the message to? Women? Women, right? And this is actually one of the passages I go

819
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:23,720
to frequently when people are like, well, women shouldn't be able to preach. And I'm like, okay,

820
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:28,200
well, Jesus entrusted this message to women. Yeah. Where did they go? They went back to the

821
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:35,880
disciples. Yeah. Yeah. And proclaimed this message. Okay. So if that's not preaching,

822
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:41,160
I don't know what it is. Yeah. Right. These women that Jesus is like, here, you follow me,

823
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:46,200
you are disciples of mine. Here is this message. You are held on equal status to where you get to

824
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:52,600
go and proclaim this message to the rest of the disciples. Huge. Well, and they were all in,

825
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:57,640
he had to show up on a road later with some other disciples who, you know, who didn't know who he

826
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:03,080
was. Well, and Thomas is like, I wasn't there. So unless I touched the holes in his wrist and the

827
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:10,200
hole at his side, I'm not going to believe. Like, yeah. Those women, all in, didn't see him right

828
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:16,040
off the bat. You know, I mean, yeah, there was an angel. So that helps, I guess. But yeah. And not

829
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:20,120
all the disciples believe like you're saying, right. And the two that really did believe Peter

830
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:24,280
and John were like, let's go. Yeah. I'm like, we need to see this. Yeah. Apparently Peter's not

831
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:29,240
like super fast running apparently. Yeah. Cause it says Peter takes off and then John out runs

832
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:34,120
him and gets there first. I see those, like I've seen those reels on Instagram where they're like,

833
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:39,080
where like it's a guy acting like Peter and he's like pointing out the Bible and that verse comes

834
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:43,160
up and then the guy who's pretending to be John just like runs away. Yeah. And it's like, it feels

835
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:49,080
like, yeah, it's like them fighting words. The death burial life ministry and death and burial

836
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:54,920
of Jesus is a pivotal event in history that doesn't reach its conclusion without the resurrection.

837
01:14:55,560 --> 01:15:01,880
Right. They buried him. Right. Like, no, I also have, I have pointed out in the past where people

838
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:05,320
only talk about the death burial resurrection and they forget that the life actually matters too.

839
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:11,320
Mm hmm. The life is what validates the death burial resurrection. Right. He put Torah on display

840
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:16,360
for people to see and talked about the kingdom of God and then ushered it in so that this gospel

841
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:21,000
of the kingdom of God is here and ready to be interacted with is now a reality for humanity.

842
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:28,120
Right. And so like, because death has been defeated. And so now through faith in Christ,

843
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:33,720
like the serpent in the desert that's lifted up, we look to him, but we really look past Jesus to

844
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:39,960
the third room of God and we find salvation. Right. Like this is the whole thing that's going on here

845
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:47,080
in this message. He's like, you know, who I'm going to entrust it to people who are on the outside,

846
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:53,320
who are not trusted necessarily in society for important messages. I'm going to give them the

847
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:57,560
place of that most importance. And you're going to carry my message. And I have this upside down

848
01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:02,280
king where this echoes back to is actually really interesting is because this actually does full

849
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:09,960
circle and echoes back to Mary who was entrusted with this baby who had to carry the shame of

850
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:16,200
having a child outside of wedlock for a whole life. Joseph had to carry it too. They had to carry that

851
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:23,720
shame together and yet they raised this kid and he lived a sinless life, went to the cross,

852
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:31,560
laid dead for three days, rose again. And then that message went back to women. Oddly enough,

853
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:37,960
shared by another lady named Mary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. The Bible is a really

854
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:43,400
cool book. Like God knows what he's doing. It turns out that he is pretty good at crafting a story.

855
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:47,400
He is, you know, a really quick here. We'll kind of just, we're going to land the plane,

856
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:54,360
but we did not cover everything Jesus talked about with women in the Bible. Right. We skimmed a stone

857
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:59,160
across, right? That'd take hours. That would take hours. That would take much more episodes than

858
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:05,240
this season two. All we're trying to do is prompt in your brain, Hey, what did Jesus actually do?

859
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:10,200
With that being said, I'm going to ask a very broad question. Let's kind of just ruminate on

860
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:15,560
this as we close. What does the life of Jesus inform on us on how he views women's role in the

861
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:23,320
kingdom of God and ministry overall? And I'll say for myself that he's very pro and he's not stuck

862
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:28,120
on necessarily what the culture believes, but about what the kingdom of God actually teaches.

863
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:33,800
And I will say what Torah has taught all along is that women have value. They're made in the image

864
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:38,120
of God. We are meant to be partners together, the etzer connecto, the force of the poses,

865
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:43,720
and actually put the kingdom on display together so that the world would move forward. Yeah.

866
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:50,040
Yeah. I would, I would say what the reflection adds here is that there's an equal status when

867
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:56,200
it comes to men and women being involved in ministry. And I think can we just take like 10

868
01:17:56,200 --> 01:18:00,120
seconds of backup here a little bit. When we talk about ministry, oftentimes in the American church,

869
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:05,960
we're like, okay, you're a pastor or something like that. Right? Like, no, when I'm in my mind,

870
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:09,720
when I'm talking about ministry, I'm talking about your life that you're living for Jesus and how

871
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:14,600
you're bringing Jesus to your community every day. Sure. Well, that's what it makes me think of. When

872
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:21,160
I hear that question, I don't think of gender. I just think of God has always loved me better than

873
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:26,920
anyone else in this world. Yeah. Preach. Yeah. And so it's not a gender issue for me. It's a,

874
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:32,680
he showed up and I've had a lot of things that have been hard in my own life and it's been very

875
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:42,440
unexpected. But through all those things, he has answered every single time. And that to me is,

876
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:50,600
he sees me when other people don't see me. He set forth a plan, a purpose that is good in store for

877
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:57,400
me that's unfolding. Every time I say yes, like Mary did to him. And he is faithful to complete

878
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:03,720
that work until I go to heaven. And it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, all those

879
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:09,800
things don't matter. You're just his child and he has a plan for you and he wants you to say yes to

880
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:15,960
him. Yeah. I like it. We're going to wrap it up there. We want to thank you so much for being with

881
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:23,320
us this week. I suspect you're going to be a fan favorite. Yeah. Because they're like, finally,

882
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:31,400
somebody that'll talk over Ben. Kate, if you want to send us an email, it's loveandcontext.gl.com

883
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:37,400
care of Spencer McDowell. So the, it was really, we're really glad you guys could be with us today

884
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:42,520
and we will see you next week when we'll have Pester Nick's wife on and we'll actually tell

885
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:51,160
you her name next week. Until next time. And that's a wrap for today's episode of Love and

886
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:55,320
Context. We hope you enjoyed this engaging conversation and gained valuable insights into

887
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:59,560
the powerful message of love within the Bible. We'd love to hear from you and continue the

888
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:04,520
conversation. Connect with us by sending us your questions, thoughts, and suggestions to

889
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:11,720
loveandcontext.gmail.com. We greatly appreciate your feedback and ideas for future episodes.

890
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:15,560
Stay connected with us on social media for updates, behind the scenes content,

891
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:20,360
and additional resources. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook

892
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:24,040
at loveandcontext. Don't forget to hit that follow button to stay up to date with the

893
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:28,920
latest episodes and join our growing community. Thank you for being part of the Love and Context

894
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:34,200
family. Remember, love is at the heart of it all. Until next time, keep seeking wisdom,

895
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:38,200
embracing love, and living out your faith in the context of today's world.

896
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:46,120
Okay, I was like, it'd be terrible if we record for a while and then we don't have anything going.

897
01:20:46,120 --> 01:21:07,720
And almost 13 minutes in. Okay, sounds good.