Season two of Love in Context podcast welcomes you. Get ready for engaging unscripted conversations
with your hosts, Ben and Spencer. Our mission remains unchanged to explore the Bible through
the powerful lens of love. In this new season, we'll embark on a journey together, unearthing
fresh insights and gaining deeper understanding of how we can love God and live out our faith
in practical ways. So let's dive into this season of Love in Context, where love in the
context of the Bible intersect to transform our lives. Welcome back to the Love in Context
podcast with Ben and Spencer. I'm not Ben. I'm not Spencer. Yeah. In case you were wondering.
We are, however, joined by somebody who it actually is this week. We have Captain Shelby
from the Salvation Army with us today. Hello. I'm so excited to have you here today. Thank
you for having me. Can you tell us a little bit, one about yourself, but also about the
Salvation Army? Because you kind of gave me some like high points on the Salvation Army
things I didn't know like founded and like where it came from and those kind of things.
Right. Yeah. So my husband and I are pastors in the Salvation Army. And we've been up here
in Alaska for roughly three years. Now, he's probably going to listen to this. So who outranks
who? I do. But that's only by years of service. So we met going into the training school,
which is kind of like a seminary, a seminary. Right. It's a two year program down in California.
And the only reason I outrank him is because I was a second year, as they call it, while
he was a first year. And we met fell in love and God wrote the rest of the story. I hear
you saying that. But I choose to believe that you outrank him because you're better. So
that's just what I choose. I will say neither here. But I'm sure he'll listen to this episode
and you're welcome. You're welcome, Brian. So to be fair, he moves up the ranks to captain
in June. So then we'll be on equal playing field. So also. Yeah. How long have you been
with us here in the city? I've been all over the place. Yeah. We have been here since summer
of twenty twenty one. Before that, we were in SoCal for a couple of years. I'm sorry.
I was sure we know we love it up here. Love the slower pace. I'm originally from the Pacific
Northwest. So I'm used to the rain and the clouds. Yeah. The dramatic weather is what
we call it. Dramatic weather. Yeah. Yeah. The Salvation Army. Most people think we're
just thrift stores. We don't do a very good job of promoting ourselves out there, but
we are an evangelical church closely aligned to the Methodists or the Church of Nazarene.
And we were founded by William and Catherine Booth, who in eighteen sixty five were getting
tired of the way church was done and decided that they wanted to take church to the streets
and go and serve the least of these. And so they pulled in the ranks, you know, people
down and out and destitute and told them that there's a better way of life for them. He
adopted kind of the militaristic way of doing things just so that you wouldn't know the
difference between someone who's off the street and someone who has, you know, much wealth
that kind of wearing the uniform and all of that kind of puts everybody on an even playing
field. Right. Regardless of your social stature. And it's, you know, it's survived. However
many years we're still wearing uniforms, we're still have ranks. Our members are called soldiers.
Yeah. And the Salvation Army, we're a church, evangelical church, but we also do a lot of
social services. Maybe we're most known for our social services. Yeah, I was going to
say. So in addition to you guys have regular service each week and preaching the gospel
and reach now, because I know that even our YWAM people did BBS at Salvation Army. That
was awesome. Yeah. And so but you guys also do a lot of like you said, social services.
Sure you have the thrift store, but you guys do a number of food boxes a month. Yeah, we
do. We have two food box distributions here. One that's through, we get the food through
the Alaska food bank and do, you know, commodities. And then one, our food bank at our church
is solely stocked, I guess, by people in the community and what we get from that. Since
we have the thrift store, we also provide vouchers for clothing and household items
if people need it. And then we also have our soup kitchen that we run Monday through Friday.
And this is by no stretch a throwing shade at anybody who came before you. But I do know
that since you guys have been here, the Salvation Army has been more involved in the community.
You guys have been doing a like just a fabulous job of getting connected with the churches,
getting people. So we're really glad you're here in this in this city with us. Well, thank
you. No, it's plus my kid loves your kid. Yeah, yes. I was I was at the I was at the
daycare. Yeah. So my son was leaving. Yeah. And your daughter's like, goodbye, James.
Goodbye. She has to say goodbye to everybody and everything. It was it was pretty great.
Yeah. She's a social butterfly and she does not get that from from me. It's probably it's
over for Brian. Maybe. Yeah. So in line with our podcast, which is called Love and Context,
you know that we're in the middle of a series talking about women in the Bible. Right. And
throughout the series, we're overemphasizing women because we feel they've been deemphasized
in ministry and really in church history. And so what we're doing is we're going through
and we're trying to course correct that a little bit and kind of help people understand,
hey, God has always been about men and women working together for the kingdom of God. Right.
And that is not about suppressing. It's actually about lifting up and about going further and
further in the kingdom of God. Right. Right. Yeah. So with that in mind, we're going to
be talking about women leaders in the Old Testament. So this is not an extensive list.
These are just big names that we picked out to talk about. It's kind of like I was I was
telling you, Spencer, we're getting ready. Yeah. I was like, I feel like I'm just skipping
a stone across, you know, barely skipping a stone. Yeah. We originally talked about
doing a four episode miniseries and then we extended it out to eight. And like I was like,
we kind of could have honestly done a full season. Right. Based on what we're talking
about. Yeah. There's just so much that when you actually start looking and say, what has
God doing in the situation? There's just so much stuff that comes up. And so we are going
to be talking about a number of women in the Old Testament. But like I'm saying, this is
not extensive. No, not not by any means today. So we're going to be moving kind of fast through
it. And there's a number of points we're going to be hitting. But just know that that was
exactly how many numbers. Well, here's the deal. If I say four to five numbers, you're
going to say forty five things. Yeah. He does that. My favorite joke every time. Also, if
he says forty five, I was like four to five. I do it the other way, too. So the joke works
both ways. Yeah. So you have to be really careful what you say around. Yeah. So we're
just going to be barely skipping a stone, though. There's a lot of ground to cover.
So by all means, we encourage you to go do your own research. You're reading on this.
And don't just take our word for it. Right. With that being said, one of the first people
we're going to talk about, we actually talked about a lot last year in the in the Torah
series. We talked about Miriam, who is the sister of both Aaron and Moses. So her first
introduction of Miriam is actually when his mom takes the basket and puts Moshek in the
basket and sends him out into the river. Now, right. It does not name Miriam there. Right.
It actually says that the sister goes. But when you start to look into genealogies later
in Chronicles, a few of the free the other places you start to list, there aren't any
other daughters listed. Right. So I feel like we can reasonably ascertain that it was probably
Miriam that went right, even though she's not necessarily named in that story. But she
is the one who actually goes and she goes along with Moses when the mother definitely
obeys Pharaoh and definitely puts her son in the in the Nile. He did not say that he
she couldn't put him in a basket first. That's one of those things where we're like, I was
like, listen, we're going to obey. Right. Obey the laws of the land. But we're going
to definitely skirt those rules as far as we can. I see a loophole. Yeah, I see a loophole
that we're going to exploit for the kingdom of God here. And also, you know, for my baby,
because I don't want to put my baby in the river. Yeah. We know that. So then Moses is
picked up by Pharaoh's daughter. She's brought into the household and she says, oh, it's
a Hebrew baby, because of course, he's circumcised. Right. So they would know immediately that
he's a Hebrew. And so she's not confused about his parentage. But then she brings actually
the mother now becomes the nursemaid for Moses. One of the things we talked about in the Torah
series is we have this concept that Moses doesn't know where he comes from. And I think
that comes from movies like maybe The Prince of Egypt and some of the great movie, which
great movie, but not necessarily devil be accurate. Right. In all of its places, though,
I will say that every time we look back at that cast, it is stacked to get one is a good
cast. So my favorite part about that movie is like it ends with Moses coming down to
Ten Commandments. Yeah. And like and if you know your Bible, you're like, there's a golden
calf at the bottom. Yeah. That's what I was getting real. Yeah. But it looks like this
child on the meter is coming down. Yeah. You know, you're about to throw those things down
and break them. Right. But Miriam, like one of the cool things about Miriam, though, is
going off the going off of the assumption that she is a sister mentioned in Exodus
two, which most scholars agree on the bravery of a Hebrew girl to go to the daughter of
Pharaoh and say, hey, I have a solution. Right. Like that that actually is a moment of leadership
from a young woman, which is something you don't actually hear or see that often. Right.
In scripture. And so like that is huge that that right there is mentioned. Right. We already
get a kind of like a peek into her personality is that she's somebody who's going to speak
up. Right. I don't let things go. Right. Which is going to work in her favor and not in her
favor throughout the Old Testament. But to be fair, that's also going to be the case
with most of the other men in the Bible as well. We get a little bit of insight into
her personality and how she operates as a as a leader, because that's not a not a super
common thing, especially in patriarchal culture, especially in slavery. Like that's not necessarily
something you expect somebody to just step up and just speak into it. Right. You know.
And so all throughout growing up, it was likely that Moses, Miriam, Aaron all know each other,
especially since later Moses is in the desert raising or shepherding sheep. And he says,
well, I'm going to send Aaron with you. And he's not like, well, who's Aaron? Right. And
he knows where it is. And apparently Aaron knows where he is. Right. So even though he's
run from Egypt, like they know where he is. Right. Right. And I just think that's interesting.
Yeah. So I wanted to point out here. So once they've actually exited Egypt, it actually
comes in and says in verse 20, they get to the Red Sea and Moses leads them in the song.
And it says in verse 20, it says, then Miriam, the prophet, Aaron's sister. So Miriam, the
what? The prophet. Prophet. Oh, OK. But I thought women weren't involved in leadership
in the Bible. Interesting. And it's not the only time that women are going to be listed
as prophets in the Bible. Actually, Deborah, who we're going to be talking about today,
is listed as a judge, but also as a prophet. And Holda, who's the last we're going to be
talking about today, also listed as a prophet. Right. As well. And then Anna, New Testament,
also listed as a prophet. Right. Temple as well. Yes. And then you have Philip's daughters
who are all listed as prophets. If you read Paul through Mediterranean eyes with Kenneth
Bailey, he talks about how Paul addresses in the Corinthian church of 1 Corinthians,
he tells the women that when you are leading, when you are prophesying, when you are speaking,
you're actually supposed to do it a certain way. Right. He's given some instructions on
how to do that. Well, the implication is if I'm giving you instructions on how to do it
properly that you're doing it, that you're doing it. Right. And which is why we also
have that conversation. We'll get to it in a few episodes. When we actually get to the
New Testament, we're talking about women in ministry because there's the other side of
that where people are like, well, he says women should be silent in church. OK, well, he's
just told women how to lead in church. Right. So you can't lead and be silent. Right. OK.
So once you really talking about it, it turns out that context matters. Right. You have
to take you have to take each book in its own context. Yeah. I mean, like, yes, it connects
to other parts of scripture, but you got to take it in some context of what Paul was writing
to Timothy has its own implications versus what Paul was writing to Corinth, which has
its own implications. Right. And while there might be some overlap, they were written to
two different groups of people. In fact. And like to put it in a different type of context,
like if we if someone from America was to write a letter to the church in Texas and
then a letter to the church in New York. Right. Those are vastly different. Those are vastly
different. Yes. Right. But one of them were like, listen, stop making everything so big.
Yeah. And then the other ones like what you let people carry guns in church. And so, you
know, like, yeah, it's a different. Absolutely. You know, you might think you're well, then
you're off your rocker. Spencer, you're off your rocker. They would never assume that
you're off your rocker. Just us get to know me alone. Just just take a look later in the
story. Miriam and Moses and Aaron are having this conflict and Miriam and Aaron are like,
oh, does God only talk to Moses? Does he talk to us? So clearly they're having conversations
with God. Right. And it talks about how their leadership and their arguing with Moses about
his cushy wife. Right. Sounds like a very family argument. Right. Some conflict. There's
there's some conflict. That absolutely sounds like something a family would argue. Yes.
Af, you're real. Every family has that one in law that you're like, oh, I'm going to
have to see them at the family gathering. You know. Oh, gosh. There is this like I mean,
I don't know which of my family listen to this. So I was going to leave that vague.
So we'll be. Let's not go. Let's keep on going. Yeah. But once again, pointing out that this
is a patriarchal society. So the women when women are listed because they're not actually
that often listed in the Bible. Right. Right. So when they are listed, there's a reason
that they're being listed. If you actually look in First Chronicle, when she's listed
in the genealogy, she's listed along with Aaron and Moses. Right. Which is very rare.
Like it's very rare for women to be listed in genealogy. In fact, next week, we're going
to talk about women in the genealogy of Jesus. Right. It's weird. Yeah. Like it's really
weird that they're even listed. I want to actually consider one more part where it talks
about Miriam and it's in Micah six four. Shelby, can you read that for us? Micah six four says
I brought you up out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. I sent Moses
to lead you. Also, Aaron and Miriam. OK, so I said Moses to lead you. Also, Aaron. Right.
And Miriam. Interesting. So if I'm off my rocker, so is Micah. Because as far as leaders
in the Old Testament, Miriam is absolutely by God and by a prophet said to be a leader
of Israel. Like God said, Moses, Aaron and Miriam to lead them. Yeah. It sounds like
they're on even playing field. Yeah. Now, obviously, when we started Torah, we know
that the relationship God had with Moses was different than anybody else. Absolutely. Right.
God was working through Moses in a very unique way. We're not going to talk about it today,
but Zipporah has some very interesting stories. In fact, she keeps Moses from getting guilt
at one point. Right. So the women in Moses's life are actually incredibly important. Right.
Like, yeah. So this leads us into the next character. We're going to talk about Deborah.
So Deborah, we find in the Book of Judges, and she is a very interesting character because
one, she is a judge. So she is placed in a position of authority. Right. Right. Which
is, again, something that we often don't see in the Old Testament. And she's towards the
beginning of the Book of Judges and happens right after Ehud. Ehud was one of my favorite
characters in the Bible. I loved reading this story. Love. Good old Ehud. Love Ehud. On
a side note, I found it very funny. Not funny, but interesting that they characterized Ehud
as they made it a point to say that he was a left handed man. Yeah. This is a little off
topic here, but I'm just going to go and point this out. So one of the reasons that they
say that about him is typically if somebody used their left hand for greeting people,
it was really uncommon for them to be left handed. Right. Because you're left handed,
it was usually your business hand. Like, so when you'd go to, yeah, that was your business
hand. So you actually did everything else with your right hand. So they say they extended
you the right hand of fellowship. Right. Well, we were talking, I was actually preaching
last week with Les who will be on here during the spiritual gifts series. But about when
Jesus says, if somebody strikes you on your right cheek, the only way to strike somebody
on your right cheek is to do one of two things. You either hit them with your left hand, which
is not a good hand. No. Or you have to backhand them with your right hand. And both of them
are a sign of disrespect. And they're not actually seeing you on an even playing field.
And Jesus says, they do that, turn to them your other cheek and force them to face you.
Right. With the proper respect. Yeah. Like stand up for justice right in the middle of
that, because it's a very honor shame culture. Yeah. The other thing about the left hand
thing is this is fascinating is so culturally back in that day when they were searching
for weapons, they would typically just search on your left side. And so if you're left handed,
you'd have your weapon on your right side. So they typically want to search there because
they would assume that you're going to draw with your right hand. And so that's actually
a lot of scholars argue that that's how he was able to sneak that weapon into the sword.
And yeah, this was a little tidbit. Yeah. I like I don't that's that's I mean, could
be could not be. But yeah. So on the heels of e hood, because they had a level of peace,
right, then we have Deborah show up because there's a recurring theme in the book of judges
is that again, Israel did evil on the side of the Lord. Oh, those Israelites. Yeah. And
of course, I've heard people talk about they call it the cycle of sin. I choose to call
it the cycle of redemption. In other words, I tend to focus on God's goodness, not man's
failure. I like that. I think that that's a better thing for us to focus on. Yeah. But
again, Israel does what's evil on the side of the Lord. And so he once again raises up
a judge. So at that time, Deborah was a prophet. Right. And it says that she's the wife of
Lapidoth, which is just a fantastic name. Right. There's probably some Hebrew scholar
that's like, that's not how that name should be. And I definitely care. And he was leading
Israel at the time. So she held court and Israel brought their issues for her to to
receive. Right. Resolve. Right. Like, so this is very, this is very normal from Torah that
you're supposed to bring your issues that you can resolve among yourselves to a higher
authority. Makes sense. She is the higher authority that they're looking for to actually
resolve these conflicts. Right. She is the higher authority. It's Deborah. OK. Yeah.
You're like, why are you saying that? Well, if you're in the series, you can have an idea.
So she but she's married. Right. But he isn't the one that leads. Right. He's not the one
that resolves the conflicts. Right. She is the one entrusted to judge and to lead. They
just don't underestimate how important this is. Right. That the fact that she's noted
to have a husband, but he's not the one who leaves. In fact, he has nothing in the story
other than his name is shows up. Right. Right. And like, for all intents and purposes, they
could have left his name out. Yeah. Right. But it's so important that it's there because
it's showing that like, hey, like you're just saying. Right. Like, she's the one in authority.
Right. She's the one in authority in this situation. Like, God has placed her in authority
and she's walking with her authority. And it's important, I think, to also note that
we don't know the backstory of Lapid, Lapidoth, Lapidoth. Nailed it. Excuse me. If you don't
know, just Ron and Strawn. That's how we would. But we would assume that he supports his wife
in her God given role in society. Right. There's nothing in the text to implicate he doesn't.
Yeah. I think the assumption would be in the text, if it doesn't say they didn't do something,
that they probably did. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like if it doesn't say they're not
supportive, then they're probably generally supportive. Right. You shouldn't make an assumption
in the name of a marriage. No. So yeah, there's nothing in the text to implicate he doesn't
support. Either way. Correct. Yeah. Now, to re-illustrate this point, I think in this
story, one of the things that God does when he writes the story, and obviously like this
history, but like as the text is being written, is there's this guy. So in the story of Deborah,
somebody has come in and they're oppressing Israel. They've done evil. And so like oppression
has come. God raises up judges. So Deborah is the judge and the prophet. But Barak is
actually going to be the general leading the army. Right. But Barak's like, yeah, I'm not
going to go and do it unless you go with me. Why do you think? Do you think Barak was just
a coward or he just needed support? I mean, okay. So that requires a lot of like me assuming
what Barak is. So I think in the text, it's implicated that he is concerned about his,
the reach of his authority. I think in the text, you can, because he's concerned that
God will go with him if he goes, because he will win. But because of that, because he
doesn't trust in God's calling on his life, which seems to be from Deborah's conversation
in the text, because she says, because you wouldn't go and do this and I have to go with
you, the glory is not going to go to you. It's going to go to a woman. Right. The implication
of that is that if he gone into it himself, I believe that he would have gotten the glory.
But he didn't. Yeah. He was, he had the opportunity to step up and go and he didn't. And that
is why, and so Barak goes and overthrows Sisera, who is ultimately runs away and is taken up
by Jayel Haber's wife. Right. Right. This is the story of the, of the tent peg. Right.
And so Deborah leads her people in worship again with Barak, but she's also listed first.
It says Deborah and Barak. Now we don't think about that in our culture, but in Hebrew culture
and in the way that it's being written, the more important is always listed first, which
is why in the New Testament, when it says Priscilla and Aquila, that's an important
distinction. Right. Because if we were actually listing them in order of importance, Priscilla
is listed first, not Aquila. Right. It should have been Aquila in Priscilla's house. Right.
Excuse me. We're in the Old Testament now. Oh yeah. I know. I know. I know. I'm talking
about, I am covering thousands of years. So that is, that is actually really fair. And
if you actually look in, in chapter five, verse seven, it says villagers in Israel would
not fight. They held back until I, Deborah, arose until I arose a mother in Israel. And
then after she does this, the land has peace for 40 years. Right. Now there's a, there's
a downward trend that ends up happening in judges where the period of time starts getting
less and less and less. They have peace, right? Because the cycles start taking less time
to repeat. Right. By the way, that's also just sin in your life. Like if you don't actually
deal with sin generationally, it takes less and less time for it to repeat. Yep. That's
one of the reasons why we talk about us as, as fathers, as mothers, as parents, our job
is to make sure that generational stuff ends with us. Oh, that's hard. Yeah. So hard. I
mean, but we didn't get into parenthood because it was easy. Nope. And if anybody thinks you're
getting into parenthood because it's easy, oh, good golly. I have got a surprise for
you. Right. Yeah. You can just have my kids for a couple of weeks and yeah, for a mine
in the mix. Listen, I had your kid for like a week and your kid is great. But after a
week I'm also like, well, after a week, I'm also like, this isn't my kid. You know what
I mean? Like I like kids just fine. I don't like other people's kids for extended periods
of time. You know what I mean? Like your kids are great for like two days. Yeah. After that,
I'm like, listen, I didn't birth you. I won't write a birthday either way, but true. But
it just gets, it gets more difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. All that being said, we're
happy to watch your kid anytime you need to. Yeah. Deborah, Deborah is a really good story.
You know, like I always love it when, um, when I'm having a conversation with people
who don't believe that women are enabled to be leaders in the Bible, they're like, okay,
we'll talk about the old Testament and you can't talk about Deborah. And I was like,
okay, well then you can't talk about first Timothy. Yeah. Like, I mean, are we, are we
really playing this game? Yeah. We can't cherry pick, you know, you can't cherry pick the
things that show up in the Bible. Right. And I was like, you can look at them, can actually
what's going on. And also, and also by the end of this episode, you're going to be like,
well, you could eliminate Deborah and you'd still be fine from your argument perspective.
I was like, yeah, I would. Well, Deborah's there. You also need to point out, we also
need to point out that the story of Deborah, it's not like three, four verses. It's two
chapters. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. It's a significant story. Yeah. It's four and five
of the book of judges. Right. So it is, it is a significant story. It's not one that
you just gloss over. Exactly. Right. And so if you're taking this woman who is in prominent
leadership role in Israel, right. And then you're saying, oh, we're just going to gloss
over that. Even though the story is actually vast compared to some of the other stories
we cherry pick on, right. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's kind of hard to kind of hard to
skip over that. Exactly. So this brings us this brings us to Esther. Yeah. And so this
is another one you can't really skimp over. Yeah. No, it's an entire book. It's an entire
book. And she is featured prominently throughout it. Yeah. Yeah. Esther is really interesting
because it takes part in the Babylonian captivity, technically Persian captivity at this point.
Right. But we're really talking about more about it later in our later series, Kings
and Kingdoms, because we're going to talk about King Ossowarais, who is the husband
of Queen Esther. Yeah. So we're going to talk about this book more. Right now, we're just
focusing in on Esther. And we know her name is Esther, a name which actually means star.
But her Hebrew name is Hadassah, which is a beautiful name. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Meaning
myrtle or tree, myrtle or tree. Right. It's a myrtle tree. It's actually very interesting
how often in the Bible women are named after trees, which kind of makes sense because you're
talking about bearing fruit. Right. A tree bears fruit. That women are frequently named
after trees. I believe that's the same with Tamar. He's named after a tree as well. Nice.
So in the story of Esther, there is Queen Vashti, who upsets her husband and according
to a lot of the Mishnah, is eliminated, executed. And so he goes, but then he gets lonely because
he didn't think there was planned. Yeah. And so they do the search and ultimately Esther
wins and becomes the new queen. Right. Yeah. I know we're talking about Esther, but I think
we should touch on Vashti and the boldness and the courage that she had to stand up to
her husband to say that she was not going to be a trophy wife and be paraded around
in front of people. I do have a book recommendation in here. There's a book by Rabbi David Foreman,
who is an Orthodox Jew. We've recommended a number of times. He has a book on the book
of Esther called The Queen You Thought You Knew. One of his statements in there is that
most of the scholarship agrees that when King Osuwaris calls for Vashti to show up in her
crown, the implication is her crown and nothing else. So that he is actually literally putting
her full body on display. Right. She's just like, no, I'm not going to do that. No, thank
you. Now the unfortunate thing that happens is because he is in front, like, cause had
she done that just to him, probably doesn't die. Yeah. Right. But the unfortunate thing
is it's, it's while he's doing this, these big parties where he's trying to gain political
favor because if you actually understand how, no, I'm going to recommend reading that book
because Foreman is going to help you understand this, but there's all these political alliances
that happen in Persia because you can't govern everything like with an iron thumb. You have
to like leave people in charge of different areas. And so even though you're in authority
over it, you still need these people who are like the underlords to support you. Gotcha.
And so like he takes it as a matter of his pride being attacked and just eliminates his
queen. Right. Now I agree with you that like her standing up to him is, is incredibly brave.
Right. It's also what gives Esther a little bit of pause later. She's like, okay, but
I don't know if you remember how I got this gig. Right. Like the only way you remember
how I got this gig, it was, it was kind of a sketchy situation. Exactly. You know, in
that case, like Vashti is, I really appreciate the fact that she stands up for herself in
the capacity because you know, Kings just get whatever they want. Right. Right. Yeah.
So Esther ends up stepping into this position of authority and then to not beat a dead horse
talking about the book of Esther, because we we're not going to recap the entire story
here. There's a guy by the name of Haman who doesn't like this guy named Mordecai, who
is Esther's uncle. Right. And because Mordecai is a Jew, Haman is like, you know what? I
mean, King, you really like me. Why don't we get rid of all the Jews, all the Jews?
Annihilation. Right. And so the King sends out the edict that it's going to happen. And
there's actually a fantastic connection, which we've talked about in the past between numbers
30 and the, in the story in Esther. It's the fact that when you, when somebody does something
and specifically somebody you're attached to. So if your husband does something and
you stay silent, it's the same as agreeing with what happens. And so to stay silent is
actually to affirm or agree with what's happening. That when you're connected with somebody in
such a way, it is your responsibility that if you don't agree with it, you have to speak
up or else you're just agreeing. Right. Mordecai actually quotes from numbers 30, which we
don't necessarily see in Esther, like a direct quote, but there's like all these different
references that come from numbers 30. Right. And Esther says, okay, well pray for me because
I'm going to go and talk to the King. And though then she approaches and she has the
banquet and then she, she confronts Haman on his plot. Asuwares is, is really amped
up at this point and eliminates Haman. But one of the things that is really interesting
is when we tell this story, a lot of times that's where we stop. Yeah. That's not where
the story stops. No. Because the Jews are still on the schedule to be eliminated. Right.
So one of the things that I think is really interesting here is that Esther then goes
to Asuwares and says, and says, okay, but what about my people? Are my people just going
to be eliminated? He says, well, here is my signet ring, my authority. You can go and
do whatever you want, but I'm not going to take back my previous command. Right. You
can go and send something out. So her and Mordecai come up with this plan that allows
the Jews to defend themselves and add confusion into the situation where people are like,
are we supposed to take them out or not? Right. And so like it's, it's a situation where they're
not quite sure what they're supposed to do and provides for the situation for the entire
nation to be saved. And so Esther steps into his, her authority as queen, right. Uses the
relationship with the king and steps out in her authority and writes a counteracting edict
that ultimately saves her people. Now, if we're talking about people in leadership,
I mean, I don't know how you get much more leadership than that. It's right there. Right.
Yeah. And the other part of the Esther story that we often skip over is that the Jews actually
fight back. Right. Yeah. At the end of, at the end of the book. At the command of who?
Mm hmm. At the command of Esther. Yeah. Right. They actually, they actually fight back and
take back their, take back their cities. Right. Yeah. And so this story isn't just a story
of what Esther did. It's what she empowered her people to do. Oh, like that. Yeah. Right.
Like it's so it's, she's a vastly important character. Right. That we can't just like
skimp over. Yeah. And even before going to the king, it says that she fasted and prayed
before and led her people to fast and pray with her. Yeah. Before she even approached
the throne. Yeah. Yeah. She led her people. She led her people. Yeah. Yeah. If it seems
like we're being a little heavy handed, we are. And we're doing that for good reason.
Once again, because we're trying to emphasize what is being ignored. Okay. So one of the
things that we talked about in the first week with, with Laura Krug is I said, not every
woman is called to be a pastor. No. Also, not every man is called to be a pastor. And
so what we're trying to help people understand is there is a specific calling when God puts
on your life for this, this role. And the one determining factor of whether God calls
you is not your gender. Correct. That is, that is not the determining factor of what
you serve or what you get to serve as. Right. That is not the determining factor. And so
just, just so you know, as we're going through this and you're welcome to disagree with us,
we will still love you. It is not a salvation issue and we will just agree up in heaven
and God will be like, oh no, this is what I meant to do. Chances are we'll probably
both be wrong on some capacity, but we're, we're looking at the Bible and saying, how
does God want us to live this out in order to push his kingdom forward? Yeah. Right.
So last, last, last person we want to talk about leadership in the old Testament, women
leadership on a throw a name out there. And are you familiar with the prophet by the name
of Holda? No, this is a story that I had glossed over. Yeah. If I'm being honest. Yeah. I was
like, who is Holda? I've never heard, heard this one. And I love the name. First of all,
it's like, hold on. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great name. So this is actually stepping back in
time because they're not in captivity at this time at this point. Right. So this is in the
reign of King Josiah. Right. Now, if you're familiar with Josiah, you know that Josiah
comes to be king when he's very young. Yeah. And, and he's thought to be a very good king.
And then they eventually, they bring out, they're like, Hey, we found the, one of the
books of the law. And he's like, Oh, well let's read it. And they read it. And he's
like, yeah, we're not doing any of that stuff. We're not doing any of that. He's like, well,
we need to, we need to clean house. And so he just goes through and he starts cleaning
house all throughout Israel. And like just, I mean, completely goes and he's like, we're
demolishing the high places. We're getting rid of the idols. We're getting rid of the
prophets. He's like, we're not supposed to be doing any of that stuff. We're going to
start reading the word of God on a regular basis. He's like, we're just cleaning house
all the way through. So side note, the story of just, if you are listening and you're a
young person and industry leadership role, this is a great story. Yeah. Absolutely. Great
story. That's not knowing about it. Now the downside for Josiah is prior to his reign,
God has already said, listen, we've had enough Kings that are not going to do what I say.
So I'm going to send you guys off into the captivity because you got to learn to tell
the story. Right. You got to learn to be the story correctly. Right. And until you're going
to do that, you're going to need to go into captivity. Right. God's already said, Hey,
this is coming. Now here's the interesting thing about that, that particular situation
and Shelby, I'm going to have you pull this up. So Josiah realizes they're not following
and they clean house. And this is the, this is the word that Huldah gives Josiah. So it's
actually the priest of Josiah, they go and they go and get, get a word from Huldah. Right.
Like the person responsible for spiritual formation of the nation, the priest goes to
get a word from God, from a prophet. Right. Right. And this is the word it starts in verse
15. Yeah. Second Kings 22 15. She said to them, this is what the Lord, the God of Israel
says, tell the man who sent you to me, this is what the Lord says. I am going to bring
disaster on this place and its people. According to everything written in the book, the King
of Judah has read because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and aroused
my anger by all the idols their hands have made. My anger will burn against this place
and will not be quenched. Tell the King of Judah who sent you to inquire of the Lord,
this is what the Lord, the God of Israel says concerning the words you heard, because your
heart was responsive when you humbled yourself before the Lord. When you heard what I have
spoken against this place and its people, that they would become a curse and be laid
waste. And because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I also have heard you,
declares the Lord. Therefore I will gather you with your ancestors and you will be buried
in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place. And so
they took her answer back to the King. Now that's really cool because if you know Josiah,
you know that he reigns for another, I think it's 40 years roughly. So captivity is on
the horizon. Conquest is on the horizon for them because they've just, we're not obeying
God, we're not obeying God. We're the anti-story over and over again. They're offering kids
to the fire, like all sorts of things that are just like deplorable. Josiah comes and
he cleans house and God says, listen, it's still coming. But because you, one guy, humbled
yourself, repented, it's not coming until you're gathered to your ancestors. You will
not see this. God brings grace on an entire nation for like 40 years because of one person's
obedience. Now I have a question for you. This is hypothetical. What do you think happens
if the entire nation follows Josiah's lead and repents? Maybe they don't even go into
captivity because the grace of God has always been greater than the wrath of God. Right.
Well, we read stories of people asking God to, if just one person or two people find
favor in them that they're falling, that you would spare this city or spare this group
and God follows through. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because it says in the
word the King, King of all Judah sent his priest to go get a word from the prophet.
They who apparently has the authority to hear from God. And he brings this word back to
them. Josiah accepts the word and the authority that comes with it. Like that's incredible.
Yeah. Incidentally, it does say that Holda has a husband. Yeah. Once again, she's the
prophet and her husband is something called the keeper of the wardrobe. Nice. Yeah. So
I'm not like it's the only time that actually shows up in the Bible. It's keeper of the
wardrobe. So he's part of the court in some capacity and yet it's Holda that they actually
want to speak to. Right. And this is a, this is, this is such a crucial word for us to
hear. Right. Right. Like God, God wants to pour favor into the world, but he's looking
for people who are willing to be part of the story and not against the story. Right. Right.
And we didn't talk about a lot of people, women in the Old Testament. We're going to
talk about a few more next week when we talk about the light of Jesus. Yeah. But I mean,
like there's, there's so many women we didn't talk about. Right. You know, and not all,
not just good examples, like bad examples too, like Jezebel. Right. Like women who were
in authority in the Old Testament. Right. Yeah. Are the queen of Sheba. Yeah. Right.
There are, there are women all throughout the Bible that are in authority of some capacity
and because they're evil, we're like, oh, well, you know, I was like, okay, well, they're
also evil kings. Does that mean men shouldn't be kings too? Well, there's also the good
intentions of some that we've talked about, like Miriam, she got her hubris in the way
and was, God struck her with leprosy because she spoke against Moses and his wife. So even
those in good authority who are hearing from God, it's that trickle when you get, when
sin enters in and your humaneness ends, it's a slippery slope for all of us. Yeah. If we
don't continually clean our hands and repent to God. Yeah. Well, and this is why the humility
and repentance piece is so huge. Right. Like you see that whole of calling Josiah, like
calling Josiah out, like because of your like humble nature and your ability to repent,
this is what's going to happen. And that's one of the things that made King David such
a prominent king is like, cause by all accounts, like if you're actually looking at some of
his stuff, you're like, man, you were a, you messed up. And we're not, we're not talking
about dispatch you, but there's lots of things in life where you're like, well, so I was,
so I was listening to a guy speak and he was like, he's like, let's be thankful. God could
use broken people. And then he went through the list. He's like Abraham, Abraham like
sold his wife or like pretending his wife was a sister, which is technically true.
Moses murdered. Yeah. It keeps going down and then he gets to David and he's like, and
that list is too long to cover in this sermon. That's her again. I was like, and I was, and
that's so, but when we constantly live that life of humility and repentance before the
Lord, that's when the Lord, that's, that's one of the times when the Lord shows up in
their lives where, where he's like, Hey, you recognize where he fell short and you're coming
back to me. Yeah. When we recognize our total, the gravity and our constant need for God.
Yeah. Really quick to sign into the women and just understanding like what God, how
God use them. Like we have Miriam in one of the most crucial portions of the old Testament
and the Exodus, right? Right. God bringing his people out of slavery and ultimately to
foundation, which is going to produce Messiah, which is going to open up a salvation for
the entire world, which is always the purpose. Coming back to Genesis 12, right? Like I was
going to work through the Jews to actually bring salvation to the entire world. Right.
And we have, we have Deborah, one of the judges being one of the first leadership, right?
Yeah. In the Bible we have, we have Holda bringing a positive word into a very dark time
rising up. And you know, this is the only time we hear about a word from her, but man,
what a word. Right? Yeah. Like you never know like how dramatic, like one event in your
life is going to be and how God's going to use you. Yeah. And then we have Esther risen
up for such an occasion as this to the scripture, right? Yeah. And I think my encouragement
as we're, as we're going to be closing down this episode is man, woman doesn't matter.
When God is, God calls into you an identity. I'm reminded of Psalm 1, where it says, blesses
the man who does not walk in the way of sinners. And it ultimately says that he is like a tree
planted beside still waters that bears fruit in its season. Well, there is, there is a
tree in Israel that bears fruit in its season and is beside still waters and large portions
of the year, it appears dead. But then when the water hits, it springs into life and produces
fruit. Right. And it is faithful in the times where there's no water. And I was like, so
like, I think sometimes we trade chase God doing exciting things every day. The water
didn't split every day, right? The Red Sea didn't split every day. They did have manna
from the sky every day. So like that is a little bit misleading, but yeah. But there
are, there are generations where they're just walking out their faithfulness and the purpose
of walking in our faithfulness is so that when the water hits, we spring up and produce
fruit. Right. So now we would say in the New Testament, when the water of the spirit moves,
we spring to life and fruit comes about and bounds and the kingdom moves forward. Right.
Yeah. And being faithful in those dry times is, it's difficult, but it is so rewarding.
Last week we talked about the Hebrew midwives, right? How they fear the Lord and the Lord
blessed them for their action. There's actually no account of them actually receiving a word
from the Lord. Right. They were just faithful. They were in captivity. Yeah. I'm not saying
they didn't. There's just no account. Right. They were, but they were faithful. They were
in captivity and they still feared the Lord, even though there is no account of the Lord
speaking to Israelites for about 400 years. Right. Right. Like that's huge. Right. Like
the likelihood is that God did speak over those 400 years. Yeah. Recorded. Right. That's
the likelihood. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the things, sorry, go ahead, Sheldia. Oh, I was
going to say also we've been talking about how we are preparing for future generations
and breaking the generational purses, right? And how being faithful in the dryness, dry
seasons means also that we most likely won't see the fruit that's being, that's being bared.
Right. That we're preparing the future generations and they're going to be ones, they're going
to be the ones that are going to see the fruit and benefit from the fruit of our actions.
So here now, two fun things to go along with that, which we've talked about in the podcast
before, but you haven't been on before. Abraham, when he's given the promise from God, goes
and plants a tamarisk tree. Do you know how long a tamarisk tree takes to grow to fruition?
I do know it. 400 years. Abraham didn't plant the tamarisk tree for himself, but for a future
generation to come and take over that land. Right. Also talking about sowing, one of the
things that I love in the life of, we also see in the life of Isaac, his son, is that
Isaac goes to a land and there is a famine. It's a famine everywhere in the land and he
goes and he plants a crop and it yields a hundred times its yield. Right. When you're
walking with God, our job is to go and be faithful. It's God's job to bring the increase.
Right. Absolutely. It's our job to just be faithful day in and day out and allow him
to do his work through us. Right. To your point where you were talking about total depravity,
before Jesus Christ, we had total depravity. Now we're the very righteousness of God. Let's
go walk it out. Yeah. It's time for us to go live that out. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. So I think
we convinced you to be with us for one more week, correct? Yes. All right. So we're going
to close down today. Next week we'll be talking about women in the lineage of Jesus. So that'll
be Matthew 1 so you can take a look there. Yeah. We'll talk to you guys soon. Sounds
good. And that's a wrap for today's episode of Love and Context. We hope you enjoyed this
engaging conversation and gained valuable insights into the powerful message of love
within the Bible. We'd love to hear from you and continue the conversation. Connect with
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out your faith in the context of today's world.
And in my hubris, I was like, no, I'm right. I don't know what Ben's doing. And then I
was like, oh no, I'm wrong.
Yeah, because we just never know some weirdo from like Norwegian.
That's fair.
Norway is definitely a country.
That's fair.
That's ending up in the bloopers, by the way. Norwegian is definitely a country.
Poop jokes.
Go for it.
Because Mordecai is a Jew. Hager? Nah, Hager.
Haman.
Thank you.