Welcome to the love and context podcast engaging in unscripted conversations with your hosts Ben and Spencer
Whether you're tuning in from your car your office your home or anywhere in between we are so happy to have you join us today
Our mission is simple to explore the Bible through a powerful lens of love
Together will uncover fresh insights and gain deeper understandings of how we can love God and love the people in our everyday lives
So buckle up and join us on the spiritual journey as we discover timeless wisdom
That is just as relevant today as it was thousands of years ago without further ado. Let's dive right in
Welcome to the love and context podcast. I'm Ben. I'm not Ben
Yeah, thank you people have heard you say that like a thousand times at this point, but it's still funny
Yeah, and we are joined by the resident mother pastor pastor Sarah Harney
So we're gonna play a game today Ben doesn't I think Ben knows if Sarah doesn't know this though
But Sarah usually gives Ben and I mom looks like 14 times every time she sees us cuz we usually
Cuz we usually fair they're well deserved
Yeah
we usually we usually deserve it and so so there might be times in this podcast where we say something and Sarah's just like
All right, and that's just normal just know that it's all from a place of love
Well, you'll feel here when she gets really upset. She'll start naming names, which will probably say like Richard
And then all her kids names will come out and then finally it'll be better
Yeah, I guess we're like 50 names no you guys are at least after the chickens after the chickens perfect after the chickens perfect
Sure, where am I in your importance? Well, there's my husband my kids my church my family my friends my chicken
My chickens then
Oh, that's so good, all right
Well, you were jumping in to mid to do autonomy with us
Yeah, and we've been going through the Torah series and we're in the last book of the Bible myself last book of the Bible
It's the last book of Torah not of the Bible
and we thought this would be a fun one because other specifically talking about worship and
You are in charge of worship out of your church. I am so I've been doing this whole worship leader and
I've been pastor now for the last 14 years. Yeah, you don't have to be scared of saying pastor here
They're fully aware that we support women. Okay. All right. I just yeah, you know
I just wanted to just say there may be a few listeners who are a little uncomfortable with that and they will get over it
Mm-hmm. They will love you anyways, even if they disagree with you. All right, and if they don't we'll have words sounds great. Yeah
Like we're always tell people we're okay with disagreeing. We're not okay with not loving people when we disagree. Mm-hmm
It's just so interesting. Oh, I'm gonna go on tangents. Yeah, that's okay. No script. All right
I'm just this is literally an unscripted conversation. So you go right ahead
it's just so interesting to get to a place where you know, people are like you have a call in your life and we see it and
We want you to do it and then you get to a spot where you're like, okay, I'm here and
Now I'm a pastor. So call me what my training my education everything is done and
It's so interesting that the word pastor freaks everyone out and I was doing this stuff before
Yeah, I became licensed. Well, I think that a lot of it comes from misunderstanding of what these rules actually represent which
Spoiler alert for season two Sarah pastor Sarah is gonna come back and we're actually gonna have a talk about
Women in the Old and New Testament and also in ministry today. So that's gonna be a fun little mini series
We're doing that a lot of people be like
They're gonna use it as cannon fodder to come against me and I'm like listen if you that's the straw that broke your back
I got a lot of other straws for you
our
Responsibilities make content you listeners you can comment that's fine. You make all the comments you want. We're so gonna make content. Mm-hmm
Yeah, alright, so we're gonna be in chapter 12 and so just kind of walking through chapter 12
It starts out Moses he says hey when you go into the land, you're gonna destroy all the places of worship, right?
There's these things they call the high places
They're worshiping on the hills and the spreading trees where the other people are worshiping their God
You're gonna go and break their altars smash the sacred stones burn the ashra pulls in the fire
And cut down the idols and wipe their names from the place, right?
one of the questions I I I've heard frequently people ask him about this is who it actually is Asherah and
Asherah is usually worshiped in
Yeah, it's fertility, but she's usually worshiped in combination with Ba'al
because Ba'al is about like the harvest and food and growth and there's a lot of mythology about that
Like Asherah entices Ba'al and like when he brings the rain
It's actually like the seed of all that comes out like that's actually the the worship that they do
So Asherah and Ba'al are worshiped together and so hence like Asherah's shrine is actually a pole and it is a phallic symbol on purpose
Yeah, yeah, and so not surprisingly God's like hey, you should get rid of those right?
Right, maybe you shouldn't have those around anymore to the fair point is God's been saying over and over again
Hey, each of trusted in this God for the water and this God for the harvest and yeah
It's like stop trusting other gods with your fertility
Yeah with your harvest with your wealth you need to trust me. It's gonna be a reoccurring theme throughout Deuteronomy
Moses saying remember
remember
Remember what's going on here?
right and
Then he specifies not only you need to destroy them
But also you need to not worship them in the same place or the same way like don't worship God in the same place
Or in the same way as where they were being worshiped because how you worship matters
Mm-hmm, right and so he says, you know, you're gonna put your temple where God says to put it
Yeah, not where you say to put it and you're gonna bring your sacrifice your ties and all your offerings to this place in this central
Location of worship now, why would that be important? It's really about community, right? Worship is about community
It's not just about relationship between man and God
It's also about relationship between man and man and woman. Sorry
I meant man as in humanity. Thank you for so I should specify that you're welcome
first mom look
Doesn't quite work
I don't even know what he said. I said that was the first mom look first mom look right there
You have to be back like a little jar and I can actually run a tally like when I'm when I'm editing the video every
That's number two
So
Where you worship matters and how you worship matters and and one of the things that we specified as we were going through Leviticus is
The sacrifices are actually an act of fellowship with God
Yeah, and they're actually an act of Thanksgiving and you're meant to be doing them in community
You're not meant to be doing them alone
Now a lot of worship a lot of times people have taken worship and even if you take worship to its modern context
We've made it very personal
Which which I don't think is a bad thing
But it's also communal right?
Like we should worship God individually and personally, but it's it's also a call to be together
You know actually tomorrow night. We're celebrating as an all-city worship night, right? Yeah, I always love those
They're great
Yeah moments of unity. Yeah, the way you said that with your face
It definitely tells me that the stress is not getting to you
Yeah, there's no stress in that in that situation at all, but it is actually
Preparation for the event but once you're there
You are always so thankful to be there. It's so good
because I think what happens when we worship in community is
We're getting a taste of what we're supposed to be experiencing for the rest of eternity
Yeah, that we're gonna be in the throne room of God and we are going to be with
thousands of Saints
Crying out to God. This is not going to be something that we're doing alone, right?
Exactly every tribe every nation every tongue
Crying out. Holy holy is a lamb. It's gonna be good. It's gonna be amazing
I can't like they like the hair on my arms want to like stand up because I'm like I can't fathom it
and it's such a
It's an invitation to community too, right?
It's just this invitation like the picture that you're speaking of actually comes from Revelation and other places
But specifically the most common one people quote is from Revelation. It's every tribe every tongue lifting up and it's just
You know, even though as we speak in our own languages, like we're all just together and we know exactly what we're saying
Mm-hmm. I know and I don't I don't get to have my Pentecostal card yet because I don't speak in tongues
Well, neither do I and I go to a Pentecostal church
So that makes it feel and I never really felt like it should be a determining factor
But it is like a bone of contention in me because I'm like God like I'm not afraid of it, right?
I've seen it. So why why Holy Spirit have you chosen not to impart this gift to me?
Well for reasons we won't get into it on this podcast. I actually have some some thoughts about that
I'd love to share with you sometime
But actually it's funny that you say that because you're definitely plugging in other miniseries
That's coming up in season two where we're actually gonna talk about the gifts of the spirit
Well, I just did a whole big class on that at our church. Yeah, you want to come back as guest I taught so yeah
Yeah, for eight weeks. Let's do it. We're gonna we're gonna talk about the gifts of spirit
And how do you approach them as both a Pentecostal and a non Pentecostal and how do you like?
So we walk with this because we want to be sensitive to however people walk with it
We you're way too good at conversating. So we're gonna have to get back into the topic here. Yeah
So the idea of of it's all in one place because it's about community it's about coming together with God
It's about it's about recognizing other people that you're supposed to bring your tithes and everything to the presence of God
And you're actually supposed to eat your tithe with God. Yeah, right. You're actually supposed to consume it right there
It's for the Levi it's for everybody else and it's for everybody else who is part of your family. You're doing it together and
Blessing is an active participant role at all times. Mm-hmm, right?
So you're actually being an active participant in what's going on? Yeah
Yeah, and the presence this relationship if you start to look at the sacrificial system and you say oh, it's just about appeasement
You miss everything
Because God is not going to be a the point is not to appease God is to be to relate with God
Right appeasement is something else, right? Right and it is definitely a product of what happens
But if you run around with this idea of appeasement, then we got a bunch of Christians who are running around
Oh, I hope God doesn't get mad at me. I better like try to earn his forgiveness
Well, that's not really what he wants. He wants you
And he wants all of you
Yeah, I think that there's something that happens when we get this picture and I think it's it might be verse 7
So it might be Deuteronomy 12 or 7 and it talks about why this is so important
It talks about the blessing that takes place when you're actively there and you were just saying that but it tells us that it's a feast
so we get we get these pictures of he prepares a banquet table for us in the presence of our enemies and and we get
this picture of a feast and
When you think of a feast, what do you think of it's a celebration, right?
You're eating. Yeah, yeah, you're stuffing your face and you're laughing and you're telling jokes
and I think that we get this picture that Moses is trying to tell the Israelites is that
When we're in the presence of God, it's a fullness of God
That means that like all the parts of us all of our senses are being engaged the shekinah glory in that
when we come with this anticipation that
worship is active participation and his blessing is that he wants me to be
Seeing him and touching him and scriptures say taste and see that I am good
Like that banquet table is set with so many yummy things and he's like saying look. I'm not just one dimensional
Yeah, there's so many facets to me when you when you think about the taste and see that the Lord is good
I don't know how many times I've been at communion and somebody has like the wafer is nastiest
Styrofoaming is bread and I'm like listen if this is the body of Christ
Like there's no way there's no way this is the body of Christ. You know what I mean?
I actually like to do this is a little aside for people listening
I actually like to do communion with Nilla wafers because I really like to taste and see that the Lord is good
Oh my Lord, that is
I remember one time we if we're gonna use wafers, let's use Nilla wafers
I remember one time we were doing communion at church and we sent the church intern out
Yeah
To get communion supplies and this was like right before service because we realized we're out we're like, alright
So go to the grocery store grape juice bread. He's like, okay, great
He came back with dr. Pepper and cheez-its perfect
And so we did communion with the whole church with dr. Pepper and cheez-its. Right? Well, let's be honest. It is a symbol
Yeah, right. Yeah, so like I was like even if you don't have
Drink juice and crackers or whatever. I was like whatever you got. It's actually about the heart you've been in the pastor
We're not worried about transport
Yeah, the senior pastor did a great job handling that situation and I was like, okay
Yeah, this is like talked about the symbolism and all that but it was like one of the things where it was like, alright
You know, I bet you that was probably one of the more joy-filled communions that you guys have had. Oh probably
Oh, yeah
Dr. Pepper's of Jesus. Yes
So he Moses actually says a couple of times. He says he keeps saying this in chapter 12
He says that you gotta you gotta make sure that you eat you meet where God wants you to meet
You got to make sure you meet where God wants to meet now in John chapter. I believe it's four
There's gonna be a conversation with a Samaritan woman at a well where they have a conversation about where are we supposed to worship?
Mm-hmm, right and Jesus addresses this because he says you're not actually gonna be worshiping on a mountain or in Jerusalem
It's actually going to be in spirit and truth
Which was always the intention the point of having a specific space in in the Old Testament
And why you got to put this into context is because you're trying to be different than all the other nations. Mm-hmm. It's not about
Simplicity, it's about relationship. It's about it's about the relationship
It's about it's about devotion togetherness making sure you do this is what there's a reason why there's pilgrimages every year, right? Right?
You're actually supposed to go and be with people. I did think it was interesting
They noted in here
He says that you can in case you have too much stuff you can actually eat all you want in your town
But you can't eat what's God's right? You got to go to the place you're supposed to go
Yeah, and then probably the favorite piece here for somebody who's serving in a priestly role is don't neglect the leviates, right?
Right. We're just coming out of pastor appreciation month and hopefully you guys were I mean
I know you don't take we only we only appreciate in October and then we're done. Yeah
One month a year which side note i'll call him out because I know he listens pastor nick was gone for three weeks
Yeah pastor persian yeah, he uh, he came back the last sunday
He was flying back from hawaii because he had a work trip over there, which I mean he was suffering he popped his head
Yeah, he popped his he didn't he wasn't even there the whole time
He just popped his head in the last sunday popped his head in the last sunday
And then he was like trying to stay out here in the four-year and so i'm like no no no no
And I moved him all the way up front and we recognized him and he was he was less than enthused with me
But he got over it
All right
I just feel like I should just speak out for my brother nick here and if there are like any supporters that are like
Nick supporters like chime in let let ben and spencer. Hey, they have been they have listened to pastor nick on here
They know that we are pastor nick supporters
We would not have him on the podcast so much if we did not support him. Yeah
But that's fair. That's fair. I just just making sure that we're we're being kind benjamin
Well, and yeah exactly. Well, you got the full name. You got the full name treatment right there
You just wait you just wait. She's gonna be like benjamin edward
It's coming. It's coming. By the way, I think that's four but I i'd have to go back into the chat
Let's get back on track. Uh, so don't neglect the levites once again coming back to leviticus
Why are the the priest important because the priests are going to teach the entire kingdom how to be a kingdom of priests, right?
This this is carried forward with paul in ephesians when he says that the pastors the teachers the apostles the prophets they're meant to equip
the body for service
Right, which I always remind people they're like they're like well, you know
I need somebody who knows how to tell people about jesus listen
Your evangelist is supposed to teach you how to talk to people about jesus
Your pastor teaches you how to care about people your prophet teaches you how to speak truth, right?
Your your apostles teach you how to bring heaven to earth
Yeah, right and though it's not for them to do it's for them to equip the body to do as as saints, right?
Right, that doesn't mean of course like you have a responsibility to do that as well because you're also a saint
But your main job is to equip right, right? Yeah, and churches are much healthier when the priests equip. Yeah. Yeah
So fun things have I talked to you about chiasms before no you haven't okay
So the uh chiasms are a middle eastern literature form much like we would call about a five paragraph essay
Okay, right. So in in america we would have like intro three three blocks of solid content and then outro which recaps everything that came before it, right?
in eastern literature specifically
From the time of torah through the time of jesus they have this thing people call it ring composition theory
They call it chiasms, but it's a mirroring text where you would have an idea a idea b idea c
Idea d and then idea c again b and then a
Right. So if you're reading the bible and you're like, I feel like they're saying the same thing that's because they are
And uh, it's actually a road map for you to find the center
Yeah, so verses one through 32 in chapter 12 is actually it's actually a big chiasm
So the first thing we see is on the outer side on verse one and verse 32
He says to be careful to observe the statutes and in 32 he says to be careful to do the commands
Right. These are what moses is talking about in verses two through four and verses 29 through 30
He says to destroy the canaanite worship and beware the canaanite worship linked ideas, right?
In verses five through fourteen and twenty six through twenty eight. They say that you need to worship at the central sanctuary
Right. That's the bulk of this text in verses 15 through 18 and 20 through 25
It talks about meat and blood and what you're supposed to do with the sacrifices and then in verse 19
It centers on don't neglect the levites now
Why would central to worship we would make sure that the levites aren't neglected
Because the levites are the people who are going to teach the entire kingdom how to be a kingdom of priests, right?
Right. So the the whole point in worship is that if you want to actually have worship that is going to be focused on god
You need to have people who are equipping the body for service
And to actually be go betweens between heaven and earth
right
So that's a chiasm for you. There's a lot of them in the bible and we're gonna have fun with them
Wow, not not some a ton of them today, but they're really fun when you start finding them. Yeah. Yeah
Talk about genesis once sometime
Yeah, I want to go look now. Oh, yeah
Yeah, i'm gonna i'm gonna give you a website and you're gonna love it. Actually i'm gonna include it in the show notes
It's chiasmus exchange now. I will let you know. I did not vet every chiasm in here
But it is a website where a bunch of christians
Have shared chiasms that they found so take every single one with them grain of salt and go look at it yourself
But it's a good starting point if you don't know what to look for. Mm-hmm, right? That's great
So if chapter 12 was about what you should do in worship, yeah
Chapter 13 is going to be about what you should not do in worship, right?
It starts with the address of like the worship of other gods and powers and there's a
A cycle of activities show up in three segments and it's actually this is another form of chiasm
So just so you're you're familiar with this when they do cyclical things where they go a b c
A b c a b c it's another form of chiasm
So if you look in chapter 13, they're going to give a very clear address of like how do you deal with false worship?
or incorrect worship
So it's going to say in the first couple verses if you have a false prophet or what I would call a spiritual authority
That comes in trying to lead you away from god in
67 it says if you have somebody in your family who's trying to lead you a safe people that you trust
And then in 12 to 13 it addresses the surrounding community. There's people in your culture
Around you who are trying to lead you away from god
Here's what you're going to do
You don't listen and you do away with usually eliminate because this is going to be old testament language
So they're going to say take them out kill them stone them
It doesn't necessarily always mean that but it can mean that right?
But so i'm just going to say do away with and remember god. So in three through five says don't listen to the prophet
Right verse six don't listen to your family. Don't pity them. Don't allow them to guilt trip you
Not that that would be ever be relevant for family, right?
And then in verse 14 when talking about the culture, he says actually destroy the city
Because they're going to try to turn you away from god that you that shows up in verse 5 verse 10 verse 17 in those three different stories
So put away evil once again verse 5 verse 11 and verse 18. Mm-hmm, right?
So there's actually a system here
It's like when you're dealing with a false prophet a false authority when you're dealing with somebody close to you or when you're dealing with somebody
Around you that you're not close to you. What do you do when they're trying to pollute who you're trying to be?
Mm-hmm, right?
It's interesting when we talk about that because it seems like
There is some conversation in the new testament that jesus has around that
Right, there's there's a process that you deal with do deal with when people are stepping out of what they're supposed to do, right?
So what's the process of dealing with that?
Right, right. You don't have a conversation. Yep alone first. Yeah, you bring somebody else bring somebody else
You bring the elders during the elders and then finally you put them in front of the church
And then if they won't respond then then you treat them like tax collectors and sinners now. I like to point out here
That jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners sinners and he spent a lot of time with them
I think sometimes when in our thing is we're like, okay
Well, we're going to be able to do that and we're going to be able to do that
I think sometimes when in our thing is we're like, okay. Well, we're going to treat them like tax collectors
They just put them out and ignore them
No, that's not what jesus is saying. He's saying treat them like people who are not part of the kingdom and that you're inviting in
That's good. Yeah, you're not putting them out. They're actually meant to be a part of you
And that makes me think of the the passage in galatians 6 where it says
If a brother or sister is caught up in sin you who are translations, you know
You who are more spiritually mature
You go to your brother and your sister and you do what you humbly and gently restore them back
To right standing with god and I love that man because if we treated them like tax collectors
So often in the church, I remember a pastor saying
that
Average person will lose seven significant relationships in their life the average person will right yet the pastor loses
Seven significant relationships a year. Oh good golly
and I sat back when I was listening to it because he was he was I think it was at the global leadership summit and
he was just sharing
to those that are in the trenches that
So often this job is so heavily wrapped up in relationship everything that we're trying to do
In the church is relationship related
Yeah, and we have the tendency that when things get awkward that we ignore the problem or we just shut and be like
I'm gonna ignore you you're not compliant with me
So i'm gonna do do that
But what you're saying is i'm actually supposed to be going and sitting with them and being like tonight
I'm gonna dine with you right zacky is tonight
You're gonna open up your home and i'm gonna come hang out with you and i'm not doing that ben, right?
Well, and I will I will give you a little bit of grace on the other side of it because there is also this
Jesus also says when you're going to the sheep of israel and you're sharing this message
And they just won't receive it right
It's okay to shake off the dust and move on right to shake off the dust right now. You're not angry
We're just shaking and moving on like it comes from the sermon on the mount where he says you don't throw your pearls before swine
Now we don't want to call people that we disagree with swine like I think that's probably I will tell you I really like bacon
So like it's not a bad thing to be a swine, right?
I really feel like
Are you saying you're a cannibal because you just equated people with swine then said you like bacon
You know what? I'm just going to brush past that and i'm going to edit out that you said anything. Okay. Okay. I'm just
Just trying to connect about this idea is like is like you can you can bring like these great arguments
But at the same time you don't need you shouldn't waste your time with people who actually don't want to be part of the kingdom
I think the people that I would where you go after them are people who actually want to be part of the kingdom
But they're struggling with taking those steps or really understanding it like that's where you're actually discipling them into truth
Well, and can we call out that we as a church?
We often don't know how to love well the people who don't want don't want to be involved, right?
Yeah, I think we've been calling that out for 38. We have we have yeah like because I was at a conference. Oh, this is
Five six years ago something like that
And then like the person who was presenting was asked the question
And there's a bunch of pastors in the room. So just a little context there is asking the question
He's like he's like, okay. Are you able to love those?
Who you disagree with or who hate you and there's a bunch of people really calm man
That's really good and I'm sitting in the back of the room with with one of my friends who's also pastor and we were just like
What do you mean?
Like we should actually as church leaders be insulted by that question because if we're called into ministry
Yes, we should be able to do that. But yeah, we don't yeah, right
Most of ministry is actually going to be loving people who are really hard to love. Yeah
Right. Actually, let me take that step most of being a Christian is loving people who are really hard
Yeah, it's like it's one of those things where you're like listen, we need to figure this out because it's not about uniformity
We're not all gonna look the same. Mm-hmm, right? We're gonna disagree about
Interpretations on tongues and healing and women pastors and like all these like there's a bunch of things
But regardless of that, we're gonna figure out a way to work together for the sake of the gospel
Yeah, we've said before on the podcast like in Romans Paul talks about like like what is the criteria for following Jesus?
Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Christ is Lord
All right, if we're doing those things and we have to figure out how to work together. Yeah, we're gonna have differences
Yeah, we'll have differences. But if it's not a salvation issue
We have to figure out a maybe put some of those differences aside and be like, okay
We're gonna disagree on these but we're still gonna work together for the kingdom
For the good of the kingdom to bring to help bring the kingdom to the earth
Yeah, and I think I've said this before and I'm gonna say it again because I just think of Warren's repeating
Before you deal with somebody's theological issues. You have to love them. Yeah
So when somebody is like, oh, I don't know if I want to get to know them because they think about blah blah blah
Like I don't care what it is, right? Okay
You have to love somebody first at the very minimum because they're made in the image of God. Mm-hmm
And at the very minimum you should love them because God loves you. Yeah, right
And if you can't then you really have no business speaking into their theological
deficiencies
You need to love them first and then have relationship. We talked about Ephesians speaking truth and love comes in a context of
Unity of fellowship, right where people are bearing with each other building each other up living together
And then they're able to speak truth and love you can't speak a truth and love outside a community
You can't speak a truth and love outside a community help and you can't go straight to speaking truth without having
You cannot correct without connection. Correct. Mm-hmm. You cannot and you know, I just we're here we are
We're going on a tangent. We're all in our 30s right now and
We have been running in this. I identify as in my 20. I'm just well you can keep doing that
Spencer someone should tell your face and you know, the rest of the rest of you that you're in your 20s
I'm sorry. Sorry, we're digressing. But I think that all of us in context actually to worship and what we have felt
God has put on our hearts as we as worship leaders or worship pastors and we're setting the banquet table and wanting people to come
And feast we've actually found
There's been a lot of things that have caused
Break in community because worship has been such a divisive, right?
topic for people
And I think that all of us sitting here have some battle wounds and some scars of times that
We maybe didn't handle people's critique
I have always been perfect never any
Well, and I'm sitting here in like full
Fully like acknowledging I'm sitting here in full conviction because I'm just thinking gosh Ben
I remember when I was cutting my teeth in leadership
14 years ago and getting to that passage where it was like
How can you say that you love God when you are holding hate in your heart for your brother?
And I was like, oh dear Jesus
like the list is too long right now of people that are showing up in the church and struggling with either me as a person
You know my prior life before Christ is you know
God is a god of grace and that's what I hope people hear when they hear my story what I'm getting to is
worship is such
a beautiful sacred
thing that God invites us to
and I really believe that when we enter into the throne room of God and
And and Moses is telling them don't worship the way that these other people are worshiping it
It's got to look different that I and don't take what they have and don't let them influence you
I don't care if they're a spiritual authority. I don't care if they're a family member
I don't care if they're your community you worship God the way that you know, you're supposed to right
Mm-hmm, but what's kind of getting at me right now is
There's gonna come a day here in like 10 or 20 years where we're going to be watching this young whippersnapper come in
And they're gonna want to be doing things wildly different than what we've come to know
Yeah, and we're gonna be those Moses is going wait. Wait, we're following Deuteronomy
We're gonna teach our children and our grandchildren the scriptures and to keep doing things this way
and I'm wondering if
We are creating space in ourselves to hold
The older generation's opinion of what worship is supposed to look like right versus what we feel like there's a movement happening in the current young generation
We're seeing that we heard about ashberry where we've heard about all these nights of worship that aren't stopping in the young generation
And there's a lot of older people that want to critique what that worship looks like when Sean
With the blonde curly hair is worshiping in Seattle. Yeah from Hillsong. Yeah
And we want to critique it because it doesn't look the way right?
It looks like the world so we don't we don't want to trust well
And I think I think the the one of the issues that we run into and then Spencer and I have been talking about thinking
Generationally like even we talk I was pastor nick and I were talking about the need to actually bring on somebody younger than us into the
Into the mix for like leading because we have to think beyond ourselves
Absolutely, right and I was like, you know has to be like the norm behavior like you have to disciple that behavior, but
There's a difference between the two
But there's a difference between critiquing a situation and actually stepping in and pastoring a situation
One of the things that I long maintain is that when people are learning to follow god and they have a lot of passion
Just be okay with the mess
And we're not also be okay cleaning it up like it's like one of the things we do is we pastor into the situations
And we love people as like but I want them to try some things
And like they're gonna make mistakes. Yeah, I mean when's the last time anybody got up to preach the first time and they were great
Right or some for some let's be honest. Yeah, they're 50th time and we're like, wow, you're still in the rotation
You know and and I was like but at the same time we're like, oh but when you get up to do this
You got to do everything perfect. We're gonna mess up
You're gonna mess up and we we fully acknowledge that you have to have a culture where it's okay to mess up
But you're messing up in pursuit of something right? Right. You're not
Messing up in as you're actually dodging pursuing something. No, you're running towards the price, correct?
Yeah, exactly that is set before stripping off every hindrance that we have
You know, like we're making sure that we're going to that and letting god refine. Yeah, yes through those messy
Yeah, and you look at you look at David and scriptures
And we know David as a man after God's own heart
Yet he was a horrible father. He saw a woman
He like devised a plan to have her husband killed so he could take her as his wife
Right, you know committed adultery all these things, right? So what made David a man after God's own heart?
It's the fact that he actually repented
That he came and he continually repented recognized when he did wrong. It's not that he didn't fall short because he did
But he repented
So when I was doing a read-through on David the last time through the bible one of the things that I noticed that really jumped off the page of me
You know when David really started to struggle with things
He stopped talking to God. Mm-hmm
Like it's very clear through most of David's life. He's talking to God and then he stops
And then suddenly boom boom boom boom all these things start falling. Mm-hmm
It's almost like there's a correlation between when there's a severance of relationship suddenly you living out the righteousness of God stops happening. Yeah, right
All right. I'm gonna keep us moving here
So into because all this is so good, but otherwise we're gonna have to be here for hours. Keep us on track
So chapter 14, by the way, actually has another chiasm that i'm not going to point out
But i'm just gonna let you know that it's there listeners if you want to find it then Spencer will get you a cookie
If you do not live here, it's not going to be a good cookie by the time it gets to you
You let me know what town you're you live in and I will get you a gift certificate
We got a way to get you a cookie shop at whatever the cookie shop's even a thing. I don't know
There's crumble. Okay. Yeah
Yeah, crumble cookie is really good. Do you realize that it's not a sponsor?
There's drama around crumble just saying hey, you know
There's drama around most things and as long as it's delicious, I don't care about the drama
So God comes back in verse one and he starts talking about the customs of the surrounding nations
He says, you know, don't cut or shave yourself for the dead, right? Customs of the people around him
They are different and you are supposed to be different than them. Right? You're supposed to be holy
He talks about what food and what they're not supposed to eat
They're going to find themselves in well, let's just say gut trouble at the very least
If they eat the wrong foods, but specifically God just had some foods that they're not doing
Sometimes they're involved in deity worship. Sometimes there's some health things
So a lot of reasons God does is it's probably some that we just don't know
But he specifies he says hey, these are the animals that are on the land
These are the ones that are in the sea and these are the ones that are in the air
Right. He specifies don't eat these ones either
All the way down in verse 21
This actually comes back and talks about a previous episode that we conversation point about Samson and the national
Right vow that you aren't supposed to eat anything you find dead or something or eat something from something that is dead
Now you can give it to a foreigner
Right. Yeah, but they aren't supposed to eat it. I
I just love that. He's like he's like you can't do this
There's actually can't give it to a foreigner. So but the but there's something there to it
Right, like like we as believers like when we're reaching people who do not follow Jesus
We can't expect them to live the way we do right? Yeah, right like
And so if you ever thought the Bible doesn't say that by the way, it's right here. Yeah
Well, this is my phone, but it's in the Bible
Well, you can't expect them to live the way we do like we are trying like we have things that have been set in our lives
Some personal convictions some biblical mandates, right?
I've been set in our lives by the Lord that we follow after
But at the same time the people we were reaching they don't have those right
And so when we're reaching it when we're when we are when we are coming alongside those people and we're like
Well, this is what you need to do. It's like actually
No, you just need to come alongside be a friend and love them. Well, right
Well, and we've talked about we said Jesus comes and he says repent for the kingdom of heaven is near
Yeah, right. This is the that's actually the gospel of Jesus Christ
That's the gospel that he preaches that the kingdom has the year and then his life death burial and resurrection confirm what that means
Mm-hmm, right, but there's there's this invitation to be part of the kingdom. Mm-hmm repent come back
Because the kingdom of heaven is here, right?
There is an invitation from God to partner with them and what he's doing in the world
And until you actually accept that invitation, there is no command but as soon as you do there's command
It's called you're gonna love each other as I have loved you. Yeah
And you're going to put my story on display
Right like this this is the command but until you actually choose to do that. There is no command for you
Mm-hmm. That's not how that works
To your point Spencer, we can't legislate righteousness
Now I that is not to say that we can't legislate righteousness
Mm-hmm. Now I that is not to say that I don't think the Christians should vote their conscience
I think they absolutely should you should vote biblical concepts. Mm-hmm, but you also need to recognize that god's in control of legislature. Not you
Mm-hmm. Yeah, he's in control
Yeah, and yeah and just the tangent a little bit more a lot of times we try to force what we
What our biblical ideals deals are on other people whether that's through legislation or whether that's your personal relationship
I've seen it both ways, but we try to do that. The reality though is the gospel thrives
Has thrived in multiple cultures with multiple different political beliefs multiple
Government structures if you don't believe me on that just go look at the church in parts of asia
Yeah, right like very different than us in the u.s
And it's thriving you take you take christianity in the ussr, right? Yeah, you take christianity during communist china
Mm-hmm, right like it is it is something intense. Mm-hmm
So this idea is says you you don't you need to look different than the people around you
This comes back to this conversation we've had of you're actually going to be holy you're going to be different
You're going to put something else on display to show the kingdom of god
So let's talk about tithing because people are just like just raring to talk about money
I know that because that's what comes up next
Moses says that a tenth of all of your fields produce
You're supposed to give it to the church
Oh, no, that's not what that hold on seconds. I'm not what that says
Oh shoot man. I I could swear with most of the churches that I grew up and that's what it says
It actually says that one tenth of your fields produce you're supposed to eat it
And the first born of your flock in the presence of god where the presence dwells god doesn't need your stuff
He wants you to spend time with him
It's always been about relationship
Now he doesn't give provisions because it's like hey if you live really far away sell your stuff take the money
Go to where god tells you to worship buy the stuff there and then eat it with god
But don't neglect the levites again because they have no allotment or inheritance
So and then this is my one of my favorite things about the ties every three years
You bring another portion of your tithe of the land and store it in your towns
So that the levites and the foreigners the fatherless and the widows can come and eat and be satisfied
So that the lord may bless you in all the works of your hands
Because it's always about other people being loved
And them loving god
Every three years can you imagine if every church person every three years we just collected an extra 10 of our income
Our extra 10 of our production and we set it aside for the fatherless the hungry the orphans
The widows solve so many issues solve so many issues. Don't kick me. Sorry
I mean you're gonna make me go on a tangent because something you guys aren't aware is that our church
Is doing a foster care ministry?
And we have partnered with a foster care agency here on island
We are seeing that the scriptures are very clear what we're supposed to do with the fatherless
Yeah, and so we are partnering with this agency and providing our facility and providing child care
So that way when parents have to go through mandatory trainings to be foster parents
They don't have child care or they got to do cpr training or they have to do trauma
Informed care because they're getting kids from really scary homes and so we as a church have said we realize this is a hardship
You are actually doing what the bible has said to do
So we're going to come alongside you and we're going to feed you we're going to take care of your kids
You can use our building do your trainings here and it has been
Fabulous and we had a banquet last night to celebrate the families that we are
Supporting and saying thank you for saying yes
And all of the families that were there last night are not there
And all of the families that were there last night are not believers, right?
Yeah, we're just saying we see that you are doing what god has called us to do. Yeah
And we want to say
Thank you. I love that. I love it. Just so practical and like and not simple
It's not simple and you know, it's been really hard to start this, you know, and when you're talking about money
there's so many facets to this conversation because we all know that
There's not a lot of money flowing through churches these days tithing is not something that I think our generation
Knows it's it blows my mind when i'm sitting at the table with people in our generation
And they're like tithe offering
And they can't engage in the conversation
They don't know why we do it why we don't do it. Like it just floors my mind that money is such a
taboo
Conversation for I would say our generation
Well, I think part of the reason it's a taboo conversation is because there has been abuse financially with the churches
Yeah, we saw it bad
Yeah, and and that has happened
So that's one of them but I also feel like one of the reasons to have a conversation is because when the
Whenever I hear people preach about it, they're talking about how you need to give more money to the church
Now i'm going to be say something that's kind of controversial and i've gotten in trouble with no
I haven't actually the pastors don't they are very
They're very tolerant of me at this church
But I made mention I said god doesn't need your money
And if you're not bringing your money because you're actually trying to give into the kingdom of god, we don't want it
He made mention of that during a sermon. He was preaching at church
Yeah, is that if you are not bringing your money because you're actually trying to feed into the kingdom of god if you're not happy about it
We don't want it
Because it's not good for you because it's all about the heart and and the thing is I firmly believe
We're always going to have exactly how much money we need to accomplish what god wants us to do
So for me like I don't we never need your money
God's always going to have our back and have what we need
What I what I'm concerned about is if you don't recognize that everything you have comes from god, right?
Then you're going to live a life of selfishness
Right, you're going to live a life of selfishness and then you're going to wonder why you never have the fullness of god in your life
I'll tell you why because you don't actually recognize where what you have comes from
You forgot that he is the lord your god who brought you out of the land of the dead
You forgot that he is the lord your god who brought you out of the land of egypt
And so you have other gods and it's called your wallet
right
There's my soapbox and i'm stepping off of it
well and with tithing to
It's giving to where kingdom work is happening. Correct, right if you
Were giving to a church but no kingdom work was happening at that church and you pulled your tithe and you moved it to a different
Non-profit christian organization whatever that where kingdom work is happening. Great. Yeah, right
Like the tithe isn't meant just to go to the church that you're attending, right?
Right. It's meant to go to where kingdom work is happening. Yeah, and and
I'm sure somebody will write us an email and tell me about why i'm wrong
But once again, i'm going to create content. You can say whatever you want
Whatever general will i tell people so the reason i like 10 is a super easy number
Right. I was like really you should be a cheerful giver with whatever you have
But start with 10 take it and then ask god throughout the week to bring things kingdom work to your life
And then fund those things out of your tithe. Mm-hmm. And at the end of the week give it to the church
And then trust god to work through the church
You know, the crazy thing is there's a there's been a study where they actually did those in a number of churches
Did you know that tithing rose like over 200 within two months because people were doing it
But then like they started recognizing the the kingdom activity and they started being involved right in kingdom activity in their church
Right, and we've had those offered those situations where people will write a check and they're like this is my tithe and i'm donating it
donating it specifically for this ministry and we're like well, that's not a
that's interesting that you're saying that because our stance that we've had and what leaders have said and elders and pastors have said is
That's not a tithe then you you you don't designate what you're giving into the kingdom. You're trusting
You're trusting the leviets, you know, you're giving into them. You're you're paying them
That's what your tithe is
So that way the leviets can continue to teach you how to do this kingdom living
And so we don't take it that way. We would call that an offering in our community of faith
That would be an offering because if you're choosing where it's going, it's an offering
And the end and offering is anything outside of the 10 percent. That's what we teach
So it's interesting that you know
I I it's just gonna be very hard to back up from a biblical perspective
But from a from an operating perspective, I think that's totally fine
Yeah, like because I think that you're giving clear delineation of like how you interpret it, you know
I mean, yeah
The hard thing is too is that is that people always equate tithe with money too?
And I was like the problem is is that what is the fruit of your time? What is the fruit of your ability?
You know, and I was like because for example like so I do a lot of stuff at our church
I don't receive anything from it, right?
I do it because i'm giving into the kingdom of my time and my talent and my energy and and I was like so
I was like
How do you quantify? I was like what you should be doing is you should be having a regular conversation with god
About what do you want me to do? Yeah, right?
You know, what do you want me to do?
And and like a lot of the time the problem with tithing in general and people say well
How much am I supposed to give I was like, well, first of all that question is usually how little can I give and be?
On god's good side
You know that that's actually what the question is. Whereas the question is god. What are you doing? And how can I partner with you?
Mm-hmm. And it's again coming back to that heart posture. It's about
Where's your heart when you're giving because there because there is that story in scripture too where there is the widow with the two mites
Yeah, right where when she drops those in jesus is like yo
She just gave way more than all y'all combined right like and they're like what she dropped two pennies and he's like, yeah
I know but still she gave she gave everything that she gave everything because she thought it was really important
Yeah, you know and and when it comes to giving of your time and your skills
One of the things I think is hard to wrestle with it might be a skill that you have that you're good at
But that you don't enjoy right but she can still give of that
Like and that's
That's something that you can do with a cheerful heart without complaining and it can bless the kingdom
I want to come into chapter 15 here real quick because this is relevant to our conversation
Moses
Continues on he talks about that every seven years they're to cancel their debts
Right to all the israelites that you can require payment from a foreigner
But you have to cancel the debt from israeli now. I thought that was really interesting that he said then however
Right after that. He says this
There need not be any poor among you. Mm-hmm
Including foreigners. Mm-hmm. And if anyone is poor don't be hard-hearted or tight-fisted be open handed and freely lend
Don't harbor wicked thoughts knowing that seven years is coming. Mm-hmm
Let's see if I give them a hundred dollars today a week from now. I have to forgive that
No, you just give a hundred dollars, right?
Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart then
Because of this yeah
The lord your god will bless you. Yeah, not just debts, but you're going to free them from slavery
It's a different kind of slavery. We've talked about how american slavery and israeli slavery was very different
But slavery is slavery. Nonetheless, it's not good
Right if a servant wants to stay with you bring them into your household for protection
But don't consider it a burden to free them because the lord's going to bless you
And so it's it's never about
Generational poverty. It's never about generational servitude
God is finding ways for people to find freedom, right?
And and I always love how god is both a capitalist and a socialist
At the same time where he's like you can accumulate for yourself. God's gonna bless you
He's gonna grow your herds, but you need to get freely and every seven years. You got to forgive all your debts
There's there's a lot going on there
But the whole thing is that you need to be be thinking and be generous to the people around you
Yeah, all of the conversations about tithe and offerings
These would not be an issue if people were generous
They only become an issue because christians aren't generous people
Yeah, and I and I hesitate to say that because there's a lot of really generous christian people
And being generous with your time and your talents
The hard thing with that is you have to sacrifice correct. You have to figure out how that works
Because if you're saying yes to one thing
You have to say no to something else. Yeah, that's how I mean, that's how time works, right?
Like if you're committed, I mean at least people who manage time responsibly if you're
If you commit to one thing that means you can't have somebody you can't have something else commit to that same time
Yeah, because then if you do you're burning bridges, right?
So how you manage that time when you are sacrificing saying hey, i'm going to give this to the lord for this reason
You have to know that that is going to maybe take away from some of the things that you want
Some things you desire
And like I was saying earlier it you might even be committing to something you're really good at that you don't care for
Yeah, right, but it's something that blesses the kingdom, right?
Romans tells us to offer our living bodies as a sacrifice and that
That's everything it's our time our talent
It's it's being able to say lord I may not want to be here schlepping and cleaning toilets on a saturday night in the church building
But i'm really good at cleaning. Yeah, and actually cleaning can can be really therapeutic. I can turn on worship music and
Get my aggression out on tile and grout and and it's about the heart posture
Am I doing this because i'm hoping someone's gonna walk into my room and say, oh my god, I'm gonna do this
I'm gonna do this because I'm hoping someone's gonna walk in the building and see that pastor
Sarah's cleaning the bathroom and oh look at the servant heart that she has
Because come on, let's talk about all of this
let's let's let's remove the veil because we all
if we have any ounce of
worship and desire to be part of
What's happening? We all have artistry inside of us and we all know what that artistry can do and be corrupted into
so we have to check that spirit a lot but
We have to be willing to be doing those things that don't look pretty
And it should be kind of painful like I should be going on saturday night and being going like this sucks
I want to be home relaxing because tomorrow morning i'm gonna show up before everyone else and i'm gonna set the banquet table
i'm gonna worship but
Tithing I really think it it is supposed to be a wrestle. It's supposed to be that like oh god
i'm gonna give this to you and
I'm gonna trust that you're gonna multiply it right not just multiply what i'm giving and hoping that it enhances the kingdom
But i'm gonna trust that if i'm gonna write this check or i'm gonna sacrifice six hours at the church to do this
Because i'm really good at cooking or i'm really good at fixing windows or leaking ceilings that god's gonna bless me in that
Yeah, and i'm gonna trust him. Yeah, i'm gonna claim it
Yeah, and on on the flip side for church leaders and ministry leaders
You shouldn't force someone into tithing or guilt them into it. No, because we yes
Because a lot of times what we'll what we'll do is be like, okay
You've been involved in church now it's time to serve right which I don't think is a bad thing to do
But then we'll be like, okay
Then you start plugging people into wherever you can because you have all these holes and gaps that you need filled in your ministry
You need more people on the worship team. You need more people in kids ministry. You need more greeters
You need people to make coffee to set up to set up that tear that down. You need people to run soundly
audiovisual stuff
And oftentimes what we do is like church leaders will unintentionally just kind of guilt trip people into saying right being like
Oh, I guess I should help out in some way and as church leaders. We shouldn't do that. Correct
No, this is a get-to this is this is a get-to or a partner with or partner with like yeah
I have people legitimately that I know have told me the only reason why I am serving on this ministry
Is because I get to hang out with you. Yeah, like i've literally had people tell me that and i'm like
Me and i'm like sarah
We we all know that your heart is for the the flock and the sheep and we know that if we're gonna hang out with you
It means we get to serve with you like that's what's gonna happen. That was richard that said that
Ricardo serves out of a joyful heart
Ben richard is uh, sarah's he looks pretty angry to me every time I see him. I'm just joking
Oh dear lord
We were just having this conversation last night because I was telling him i'm like, you know, it's really hard having you as my sound guy
Because we're we're aging so richard is you know, he's in his 40s now and you know
I like to remind him of that and he's got gray hair and you know
People still ask me if i'm you know old enough to have a teenager. So we're in a good balance right now
But I didn't know his eyesight was going so he glares at me from the sound booth and I was like
Am I like doing something wrong when i'm leading worship and he was like
I can't see you
I was like, he's gotta get some glasses really great questions to ask you from time to time because i've been harboring this
For the last two years
Why do you hate me saying that communication between people can lead to a lot of less like miscommunication?
I mean sure ben hear whatever you want to hear. Yeah, i'll hear that so um
the big thing that we we we find in this in this section of scripture is
Is there's a way we're supposed to worship and i'm not neglecting the levites is going to be really important to that
Right staying on track is going to be respecting your leadership to actually equip you. Yeah
Now, of course leadership you need to be respectable
Like you you have a responsibility but regardless of how respectable your leadership is you still owe them respect because you follow god and he's appointed
Scripture calls us to honor your leaders
There is always a reason why you may or may go to a different church
Don't let it be because you disagree with one little semantic thing
Right, right. There are always reasons that that might happen or god is just moving you somewhere else that that's okay
But you should never be going because you're angry
That's something that needs to be worked out
I love it that my pastor says that often the things that stick out to you in the church is where god has actually gifted you
In because you're seeing wow, this isn't going well, and i'm seeing how it could be better
And so when you have people going wow, the sermon's really sucking. Well, sounds like you have the gift of teaching
Yeah
We we would love to hop you in here and you can spend the next 40 80 hours preparing for a sermon and yeah
Or wow worship really sucked today. That sounds really crappy. Hey, we have a open spot
Yeah, right here. You can come make it sound better
Oh, man
So good
So worship properly expressed is going to your leadership is going to equip you
You're not going to look like everybody else
You're not going to be led astray by anybody else
But actually your real worship is going to lead you to be a generous kind of person
In the way that you treat each other in the way that you treat the church in the way that you treat the levites
In the way that you treat the foreigners and specifically in the way that you treat people who are a lower caste system than you as well
It's almost like something like in christ there is neither
Jew or gentile male or female
free or
Slave. Yeah
It's almost like there's some credence to that. Maybe maybe maybe paul knows what he's talking about. Maybe he does
Maybe all right. Well, that's going to be it for this episode. We're going to have you next week
So we're going to wrap today if you see us you're obviously on youtube
And we did not warn pastor sarah harney that we were doing video version
So she's like this is weekend sarah and I was like, well, this is weekend
You can tell because he's got a hat on I always have a hat on so he always has a hat on
But you can tell when I record during the week because i'm wearing a dress shirt and uh, because I come in from work
So you can find us on the facebook on the instagram on the tickety talk the tickety talk youtube
If you're on youtube, like obviously, you know that you can listen on apple spotify
Amazon not google not google not google and many other platforms. Oh, we'd love to hear from you
Also, we have a q a coming up after deuteronomy
So if you have those questions where you're like, hey you guys said something about this
And i'm really curious about what that was send us those at lovingcontexts.gmail.com
Thanks
That's a wrap for today's episode
We want to extend a heartfelt
Thank you for tuning in and spending your valuable time with us
We hope that you found today's conversation insightful
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On instagram and facebook for updates you're putting your hand getting getting actually involved. Sorry
I don't know. I said putting your hand I put put your hand in here on my notes and I don't know why I did that
Hold on a second. Apparently I have my my voice text on here and it's just it's just it's just going away typing
I can taste and see the crumble cookie is good
So that's probably sacrilegious. I'll take that off. Sorry ben
I know so many things are firing off in your brain right now
I'm sorry, so many and i'm looking at the i'm looking at the time and thinking about what I want to edit out because we still have another episode