Welcome to the Love and Context podcast, engaging in unscripted conversations with your hosts,
Ben and Spencer.
Whether you're tuning in from your car, your office, your home, or anywhere in between,
we are so happy to have you join us today.
Our mission is simple, to explore the Bible through a powerful lens of love.
Together we'll uncover fresh insights and gain deeper understandings of how we can love
God and love the people in our everyday lives.
So buckle up and join us on this spiritual journey as we discover timeless wisdom that
is just as relevant today as it was thousands of years ago.
Without further ado, let's dive right in.
All right, welcome to the Love and Context podcast with Ben and Spencer.
I am Ben.
I'm not Ben.
Yeah, I think people can probably see that at this point.
Yeah, I'm Spencer.
Yeah, you're seeing us again.
And once again, we do apologize because if your cameras are breaking, your screens are
freaking out.
No, not those guys.
We actually have a special guest today.
You want to introduce our special guest?
Yeah.
So this guy has had a big impact on my life.
His name is Ed.
He's also known as my dad.
So he time if you're like, you feel like, hey, I want to hear embarrassing stories about
Spencer like he's the guy to talk to.
So he's probably got a few of those.
So but a few, a few, a few.
Yeah.
So, Mr. Ed McDowell, he has worked in Christian camping for, is it 27 years?
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, sweet.
I got the first guess.
That's awesome.
27 years.
He's been the board chair for the Christian Camp and Association across the US.
He's worked in pastoral ministry in a number of different churches in Oregon and Colorado.
Served as dean of students a long time ago at Central Christian College.
So yeah, published author.
He's got his own set of devotional books, which are awesome.
Excellent.
We'll put a link into those in the description.
Yeah, absolutely.
Can you get those on like Amazon and stuff or?
Yeah.
Perfect.
Excellent.
Perfect.
Well, we're really excited you're here.
Do you have anything to say before we get rolling?
Well, it's great to be with you.
And I have been taking in and enjoying the Love and Context podcast.
And some of the things you have said have made it into other messages that I've shared
or devotional gatherings or campfire conversations.
And so I really appreciate the input that you're pouring into my life through this.
So thanks for having me with you today.
Man, what a gracious man.
What happened to you?
We do.
Thank you so much.
One disclaimer to this.
I do need to apologize.
There is one story I told about my childhood on the podcast that my mom listened to and
she says that I told the story wrong.
That's not super surprising because in fact, I think actually when we get into Deuteronomy,
we're going to talk about how like Moses is at the end of his life retelling the stories.
And there are some times when he tells the stories that are painted definitely in the
same way that he does in the story.
And I think that's a really good example of how Moses is at the end of his life retelling
the stories.
And there are some times when he tells the stories that are painted definitely in the
same way that he does in the story.
And I think that's a really good example of how Moses is at the end of his life retelling
the stories.
So today we're going to be in Numbers 21.
So if you have not read that, there's this wonderful new fangle technology.
It's called a pause button.
You can pause it and go read it.
And then come back and join us after you read it.
That's where we are going to be today.
Yeah.
So just a reminder, like we are just we're coming off the heels of this story of Moses
is supposed to speak to the rock and instead he chastises the people and decides to strike
the rock a couple of times, which I mean, Ed, you can probably tell me, but you know
guys in ministry, they always do exactly what God tells them to do.
Right.
Oh yeah.
Well, what's all right.
Right.
And I can tell you that's a big challenge is just having to come back and say, God,
can you clean up after me?
I'm so sorry.
Thank goodness he's a lot better cleaning up our messes and he's faster at cleaning
them up than we are at making them, which is very impressive.
So this whole section and we've kind of seen this thing with Israel and they're struggling
with this question of are they going to trust God?
Right.
Because they have this question.
They're like, oh, we don't have water.
Oh, we have this bread, but we don't really like this bread.
Oh, we don't want to go into the land.
There's the, uh, the Amalekites and they're huge.
There's a Nephilim, you know, we don't want to fight them.
And over and over again, to the point where they're like, well, maybe we should appoint
a new leader.
We're going to go back to Egypt.
And it's over and over again, God say, do you trust me?
Do you trust me?
And the resounding answer has been no.
To now the point last week, even Moses and Aaron are struggling to trust God.
Right.
Which I actually was talking to a friend of mine this week who listened to the episode
and he made a comment and I thought it was really worth sharing.
He said, if you as a leader have your fellowship, that is just doesn't trust and doesn't trust
and doesn't trust, you have to really put yourself on guard because it very easily can
become you.
Right.
Uh, like that's a huge takeaway from like Moses's story here.
So all that complaining, everything that's going on.
And then we get into, uh, numbers 21, they have a, they have a quick victory over Arad
and then, uh, they're in verse four.
We're just going to pick up here.
So 21 verse four says they traveled from Mount whore along the route to the Red Sea to go
around Edom, but the people grew impatient on the way, which has never happened.
Not to any point up in the story.
They spoke against God and against Moses and said, have you brought us up out of Egypt
to die in the wilderness?
There's no bread, there's no water, and we detest this miserable food.
Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them.
They bit the people and many Israelites died.
The people came to Moses and said, we send when we spoke against the Lord and against
you pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.
So Moses prayed for the people and Lord said to Moses, make a snake and put it on a pole.
Anyone who has bitten can look at it and live.
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it on a pole.
Then when everyone was bitten by the snake, they look at the bronze snake and they would
live.
Now, I don't know how many times I've read that story.
And if you don't have like John three in the back of your head, sometimes you're reading
this and you're like, this is a weird story.
Right?
Because like there's a few weird things that are going on here.
First I want to point out.
So a few weeks ago, we talked about this Hebrew word of like this murmuring, this discontent
that was going on underneath.
That's gone.
Now they're just like, we don't like it, God.
We don't like it, Moses.
Like they're they're literally there.
It's no longer a grumbling in the background.
Now they're just full on complaining.
Like they're shouting it out.
Right?
So it's a it's an escalation for sure.
The the Hebrew word is bar, meaning to speak or declare.
Now I always think of that spot in the office where they tell Michael Scott that he has
to declare bankruptcy.
And so he walks out into the office and he goes, I declare bankruptcy.
He goes, Mike, you actually have to file a paper.
You can't just declare it.
He's like, I didn't say it.
I declared it.
So that works real well.
It's always that's always in the back of my head.
Like whenever somebody says like in the church, when people say declarations of peace and
goodness and mercy from God, and I'm like, I'm always like, I declare blessing, you know.
But that's neither here nor there.
Sorry, that was a tangent.
There we go.
That was there's a really interesting thing, because when you're looking at numbers for
particularly verse five, it actually echoes back to excess three and four, too, as well,
where Moses at the end of giving his list of excuses is like, I just don't want to.
Yeah, like please send someone else.
Right.
I don't want this.
And God, God in his anger at that moment, sends him Aaron, right?
Like still provides in his anger, not in his anger, in his frustration.
And you actually see that echoed in this story, that nature of God where he's like, okay,
we will, he's like, I'm going to provide a way for you to be healed from these snake
from these snake bites.
Right.
And so, yeah, totally, absolutely.
There's there's there is respite in the end.
Right.
So I want to kind of go through the story.
So first off, not a grumble.
This is a declaration.
Right.
So, Ed, you've been in church, when it moves from grumble to declaration, you went from,
hey, we should have a private meeting to maybe we should have a family meeting as a church.
Right.
Yeah, I've seen that in church.
I've, I've even seen that in family.
Yeah.
Where, you know, you just can't let it go on and you've got to get people together and
talk about it for what it is.
Mm hmm.
Well, and so then moving from that, then they start saying, we don't have bread, we don't
have water, we detest this food.
Now, okay, first of all, you're like, I don't have bread, I don't have water, both things
we know that they have because we just saw the previous scripture.
Right.
So we know they have both of those water, bread still coming from heaven, they still
have quail, all these things that God is still providing.
So what food are they talking about?
It has to be the man and quail that they don't like.
Right.
So it's not that they don't have bread, they just don't have bread that they want.
Yeah.
Which, by the way, I've never heard that comparison to the American church before, right?
No.
Where we're like, God, I want this, not this.
It's like one of those things where you don't pray for patience because God will give you
people you can't handle.
Well, this is a good spot for us to jump into just a conversation about God's provision
rarely coming how we expect it to come.
Right.
And so I like, I've experienced that in my life, where am I?
Okay, Lord, I need your provision here.
And then it comes in a really weird roundabout way.
Right.
Dad, I'm sure you've experienced that in your life too.
I think the heart of this is that it's that they're not in control of how the provision
happens.
Yeah.
And I think that takes it right to where we all get stuck so many times is I'm complaining
about your provision because I actually want to be in control of how the provision happens.
Well, that goes all the way back to Exodus when Pharaoh is confronting God.
He wants control over the situation.
He's like, well, do you want these plagues to end?
He's like, yes.
He's like, when do you want them to end?
He's like, now, if I got a thousand frogs in my living room, I'm saying this second.
Right.
But Pharaoh's like three o'clock tomorrow because his thing and what Rabbi David Foreman
is talking about in those texts is that Pharaoh is trying to see what kind of control does
God actually have because Pharaoh is the guy who wants control.
Right.
Once again, are we buying into the narrative of empire in Egypt or are we buying into this
empire of Shalom and following God?
Peace.
You know, being led in the desert by a voice.
Yeah.
Which, you know, you see this grumble, he's grumbling against, they're grumbling against
God, they're grumbling against Moses.
They say, we don't like anything that you're providing.
What are they really saying?
They're saying, we don't want you here.
We want to be back in Egypt.
Which leads into the next part where they actually says that God sends these snakes.
Now I always thought that was an overreaction.
Right.
Like, we don't like this bread here, have a snake, which by the way, I don't know if
you caught that, but Jesus actually tells a parable about that.
When somebody asks for bread, who would give them a snake?
And you're like, that's a really weird thing.
It's almost like it's happened in the text before, huh?
It's almost like Jesus knows his Torah.
It's like he's the Torah made flesh.
And so I got into this because I was like, I don't quite understand what's going on
here.
And so the word there for scent isn't actually the word we would normally use for scent.
It's actually a Hebrew word called shalach and it is a verb meaning to let go.
Okay.
So the implication there is that God has a hold of the snakes and he's had a hold of
snakes and they say, I don't want you to be here.
And so God says, okay, be in the desert by yourself then.
And he just releases his protection.
And I think that's really interesting because if you look in Deuteronomy 29 and five and
we're not there yet, God actually, Moses is going to make a statement that says that God
actually makes sure that the clothes don't wear out and that their shoes are still standing.
And God's presence is the cloud as we see here in Exodus and numbers.
And it's the fire that went with them.
We've talked about that's protection from the heat, that's protection from the cold
and God has been going and they've been protected everywhere that they've gone, every place
that they've gone.
So in this case, God doesn't so much send snakes as he removes what he's been withholding.
Right?
That's a good conversation about our lives because I don't know how many times people
talk about they're like, Oh God is just sending adversity into my life.
Well is he sending adversity into your life or has there always been adversity and you're
no longer right in the middle of his will?
Because I read stories by like Corey Tim Boone.
She's sitting in the Nazi concentration camps covered in lice malnutrition, being beaten
every day.
And she's like, Oh, the glory of the Lord was in that place.
Right?
She's more content in a Nazi concentration camp than we are in our air conditioned house.
Like something is different and maybe the adversity you're facing has more to do with
the fact that you're not right in the center of God's will and that you're relying on your
own power to Ed's point than actually relying on God's.
I always feel like I should call you like Dr. Ed.
Well, please don't.
Do you have a doctorate?
Because that'd be great.
No, I'm not worthy.
Do you have a master's because I could call you master Ed.
Yeah, you think this is not.
I think this is getting ridiculous.
I'll stop talking because I did a lot of talking leading up to that.
So it is a great conversation piece to have of are we living in like, where's the adversity
coming from?
Like is it coming?
Like, because I don't want to deny the I don't want to deny the fact that there are
times where God does send adversity into our lives.
Absolutely.
Because there is scripture to back that.
And you could look at this one, you could argue either way, but you could look at Job's
life where God where Satan's like, I want to mess with this guy.
And God's like, okay, right, right.
Like in sense, God was giving permission for Satan to be sent to mess with Job.
So you can look there's stories like that.
There's also times where we just step out of the will of the Lord.
And then we're like, man, why are things?
Why why is my peace gone?
Why is my anxiety up?
Why is my fill in the blank?
Right.
And then we step out of the will of the Lord, we start to see those things crumble around
us.
And sometimes and the beautiful thing about it is in that crumbling, oftentimes the Lord,
actually, are you always the Lord meets us and draws us back in.
Right.
That doesn't mean we, we still have to live with the consequences of what happened, but
the Lord meets us there and draws us back in.
And it's such a beautiful thing.
If you were to go over to Hebrews four, it's this, it begins with, so does God's promise
of entering his promised rest still stand.
And right on the back of that is how so many people in the children of Israel missed out
while wandering, you know, and God was providing it right in the zone of where we're talking
about today.
And he really comes on and says, look, you run the risk of missing out yourself.
It comes back to this whole idea of trust.
And then there's this very real connection that you get down to verse 12 of chapter four
and yet it talks about his word, being able to work in places in our lives that take incredible
precision.
You know, he talks about separating mind and soul and marrow and bone and desires and thoughts.
I mean, just these, and it says his word can help us sort that out.
And then it ends back with, which brings us back towards some of the imagery of today.
It ends with Jesus understands all of this.
He's experienced all of it.
The only thing he didn't do was the sin part, but he experienced everything else and he's
there to help us and invite us to get the help we need through this.
Would you say then, Ed, a lot of times we are forgetting, because God makes a comment
in Torah or actually I think it's in Jeremiah or Isaiah where he says, I led you like a
bride.
This is intimate time with God.
This is important time.
And it's not easy.
You're still in the desert.
Even if God is removing snakes and all those things and providing bread and stuff, it's
still difficult.
But would you say that sometimes as Christians, we have a tendency to try to avoid the deserts
and so we miss that intimate time with God.
We miss out the wonder moving of God because we're not willing to be a little uncomfortable
in his.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, completely.
And I think that what we're looking for so often is circumstantial harmony or harmony
with the physical space and surroundings.
What God's saying is I have the capacity to give you everything you need so that you can
show up and live in a way in whatever circumstance that can actually be described as being filled
with rest, which is what I think about.
Oh yeah.
Well, and then also like back to your point on Hebrews 4, there is power in rest.
Like Hebrews 4.12, I've often found it gets quoted out of context because you read the
verses before that, it's all about resting on the Lord.
It's true.
I think in Hebrews 4, the whole thing with the word being like the sword, I kind of feel
like people are always using it to dissect their neighbor.
That's frequently how we're using it and the whole thing is actually introspection.
Yeah, and it's used more so to dissect yourself.
Yeah.
It's almost like, you know, Jesus told this story.
Funny, you know that guy.
He told this story about a log in your online when you're trying to take out a spec.
You know?
I feel like the word of God might be helpful for that.
Yeah, absolutely.
No, that's so good.
Okay.
So in the story here, now God has released his protection around them and these are going
out and they're biting people and I hate snakes, like just with a violent passion.
Like one of my favorite things about being in Alaska is we don't have snakes.
Like it's great.
It's so great.
So then the people realize when they start getting bitten and die that maybe they made
a bad choice.
Right?
Like it just seems likely.
So they ask Moses to pray to God and then once again, this is because they don't want
to talk to God.
It's been established back in Exodus because they're like, Oh God, your voice is too strong.
We don't want to talk to you.
Talk to Moses and he'll tell us what to do.
Right?
Which a lot of their issues come from the fact they're like, well, Moses, are you the
only one who talks to God?
Yeah, because you literally said to like, this is what you asked for.
And so you're like, yeah, that is what's happening.
And so he has him go and pray and Moses prays and God has him make this bronze serpent and
as him has it lifted up on high in the camp and if someone's bitten, they look at it and
they live.
Right?
What's interesting is God doesn't actually remove the snakes.
Like the snakes never go away now.
Like they're there.
The snakes are just there now.
Now he gives them the ability to live even when the snake bites.
Right?
Feels very Genesis to me.
Right?
I mean, like if I'm thinking Genesis three, I think that's a great connection to see what's
going on here is we think we know better than you.
Once again, you don't.
And once again, we have a snake causing problems.
Right?
But this time, even if you're getting bit by the snake, there's a way that you can live,
which also comes back to Cain and Abel Genesis four.
Why are you downcast?
Why are you angry?
If you do it as good, won't you be accepted?
But if you don't do what is good, sin is sitting at your door waiting to devour you, but you
must conquer it.
You have the option.
Look up.
Right?
Yeah.
Uh, this plays really well into like just because forgiveness has taken place, that
doesn't mean the consequences of our actions have gone away.
Right?
Or the repercussions of our actions have gone away.
There are times where we make decisions in our lives and yes, forgiveness and redemption
happens, restoration happens, but there's still consequences from those actions.
Right?
And so here you have the same, you have a similar thing happening where Israelites are
like, yeah, we, okay, we made a mistake and the Lord's like, okay, I'm going to provide
a way for healing.
But by the way, yeah, still like this is still going to be with you.
Right?
Like you still have to see that this is going to be with you.
Uh, and it's something you're going to have to live with.
Well, yeah.
And when, with that, that idea, we're going to have some commentary on this because I
think that there's a really, some really interesting things that God is doing.
One, he's having him put it on a pole.
It has to be high up in the sky.
Now, the only reason you do that is so everybody can see it.
But typically when you have like archways or anything in, uh, in like temples or in
anything that's going on in the, in the camp now, ideally there's probably be in the center
near the tabernacle.
That would be my guess given how they travel.
Right?
That'd be my guess.
It doesn't specifically say, but if you want everybody to be able to see it and having
it in the middle makes the most sense.
And you have to have it high.
Now in the book of Exodus, they're actually walking through the desert and they have a
encounter with the Amalekites who incidentally they've just been complaining about again.
Uh, they haven't, because they're like this desert nomadic people that are just like,
they always pick off the weak and God has Moses go and put his hands up in the air and
Aaron and, uh, who's the guy with, with Aaron and that story?
Did they remember?
No.
Aaron and the other guy who is very important.
So don't make like, take me forgetting his name as he's not important.
They stand next to Moses and the entire time that Moses has his hands up, like they win
the battle, but when his hands start to fall, they lose.
Now is it really about his hands or is it about what his hands are?
Like what's between his hands, which when they look up, he's up on a mountain top.
They look behind his hands.
They actually see the banner of heaven behind him, which is where God dwells in, in Hebrew
mind.
This is where God is.
So Moses actually has his hands up and whenever they look in the battle and they can see Moses
hands up, who are they really looking at?
They're looking through Moses to God.
That's a really important image for us to see.
Now we have this bronze serpent that has been posted up on a pole wherever they go that
if they're bit and death is coming to claim them, they look to this serpent, but they're
not really looking to the serpent.
They're looking beyond the serpent because beyond the serpent is their salvation who's
providing it, which has got right.
Like this is a, this is a very, it's a very clear picture and it's not necessarily, uh,
spelled out in the text because a lot of times in these texts, like they assume that you
know things about like ancient temples and ancient cultures and things like that.
Um, which we as Americans probably do not do not.
Now a couple interesting things to note, um, making idols is prohibited.
So this is actually not an idol, right?
This is a symbol that they're supposed to look at and drive them to God.
Yeah.
I specify that because I have a, I have a story and I know this person will never listen
to my podcast because it was years ago and they didn't like technology then, but I was
in a, I was serving in a church and I had somebody come up and tell me because we had,
we had moved the, you know, the, the almost every church, our older church has one, the
this do and remembrance of me table.
Yeah.
Like that's, that's where they put communion.
There's always a big Bible on it.
It was in the right in the center of the stage.
So like we had instrumentalist in front of it and instrumentalist behind it.
It was, it was in the way.
So I asked the pastor, could we move it to in front of the stage?
Right.
And I thought that was a fairly simple move that wouldn't cause any problems.
Boy, was I wrong.
And I had a, had a lady come up and she was furious.
Well, you'll love, you'll get a chuckle out of this ed.
She says that table is the modern day arc of the covenant and you are putting it on
the floor.
It belongs on the stage and center.
And I was like, well, the arc of the covenant is supposed to be in the Holy of Holies where
the presence of God dwells.
That's actually the church people.
So which I was younger then.
So please forgive my crassness and my directness, but it was, I was like, I was like, I'm pretty
sure that you're misunderstanding what the Bible's teaching, but we've taken symbols
and even like to an extent, like the Christian cross, right?
One of the reasons it was such an effective symbol in those times is because it was a
item of ridicule.
Now it's a trendy piece that people put around their neck, right?
We're in danger.
I think sometimes of taking symbols like the cross and making them idols rather than using
the symbol to point at what it represents.
Yeah, that's a, that's not a very fair statement.
I've, I have similar stories to your table story.
I'm not going to recount them right now because they, is it your dad?
He's going to listen to a podcast now.
No, no, my dad and I have always had great relationship for the most part.
I mean, it's a fair statement to say that there are times where we take symbols and
we elevate them above what they're supposed to represent.
Similar to your story.
I got stories like that, but I don't think we have time to recount all those today.
I got stories like that too, where, where people have been like, well, this is the most
important thing.
I'm like, actually that's a box.
So, but sometimes when we need to remember what these symbols represent, right?
And I want to be really clear.
Like we're not counting the work that happened on the cross.
Right.
Exactly.
The cross is super important.
Please hear us loud and clear on that.
The cross is super important.
It is fundamental in many ways.
The work that happened on the cross is supposed to lead us to a place of forgiveness, restoration
and redemption with Jesus, with God through the work of Jesus.
Right.
Yeah.
Isn't that the, isn't that the challenge with the symbol?
About a year ago, you know, built about a 12 foot cross in our backyard and put it in
one of the gardens there.
And it was there because I wanted the reminder that having our lives always looking towards
Christ in what we do is the important thing.
It's not there to kind of show off religion or to show off my faith.
It really is there to say, let's keep my eyes fixed on Christ.
Let's keep our eyes on the one who's done this for us.
And I, you know, I think that's the goal of a good symbol.
And when elevated beyond its purpose, that's when it becomes problematic.
Yeah.
I had to work that in.
We haven't said a hundred percent yet.
So I've been holding back.
Yeah.
So one of the passages that I pulled up that kind of like, what reason I look at this serpent
being on the pole, lifted up high, they're looking past to see Jesus or to see God in
this case is it's all throughout scripture.
So I just picked one where they talk about this, but in Isaiah 45 22, it says, turn to
me and be saved.
All you ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other by myself.
I have sworn my mouth has uttered in all integrity, a word that will not be revoked before me.
Every knee will bow by me.
Every tongue will swear.
They will say of me in the Lord alone, our deliverance and strength, all who have raised
against him will come to him and be put to shame, but all the descendants of Israel will
find deliverance in the Lord and will make their boast in him.
Now turn to me.
Where is God?
In their mind, he's going to be in the sky, right?
In the heavens, in the cloud, right?
So to turn to him means you have to look up.
You have to look up where the serpent is up.
You need to look up to find your salvation.
You need to look up because that's where all help comes from.
You know, there's that song, I look to the mountains, right?
Pulling from the passage, I look to the mountain.
Why do you look to the mountains?
Because God is up, right?
He looks, he's on the mountain like in Sinai.
And big reason I'm pointing that out is because we have a tendency to be like, oh, well, we
need to look up and we're talking about literally looking up.
No, the point is that you actually need to, to Ed's point, look past the cross to what
Jesus is doing, right?
The cross is meant for you to look towards so that you actually see the finished work
beyond the cross.
Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.
I think that the cross is fundamentally like this transfiguring work, like what God does
in our life, right?
The power over sin and death, everything that happens with that and the resurrection.
So many times we focus so much on that that we forget that there's stuff that comes after
that we're actually supposed to go because of this and be different.
Now, very American church idea.
What happens in second Kings?
They end up taking the bronze serpent and then they actually create it into an idol
and start worshiping it so that eventually Hezekiah has to come in and break it up and
throw it away because it's like, okay guys, literally not what this is for, right?
Not even a little bit.
But I think we have a tendency that we have like these sacred relics of our past and they
can be like, you think about people with VBS, okay?
Now VBS is an incredible tool for reaching people for Christ, right?
But if you think that VBS is what saves people, like you got a problem.
Like if you're like, oh, we can't reach kids without VBS, right?
Or you have like, if you're like, oh, we can't reach people without a specific kind of music,
you're actually now elevating this to the point of like an idol rather than a tool from
which to actually reach people.
Coming back to the like looking up piece.
So dad, the camp you work at, they put a big Christmas thing on every year, lots of Christmas
lights, right?
I've helped set that up a number of times.
We always had an inside joke whenever we were setting it up for like, oh, we don't need
to hang lights higher than eight feet because nobody will look up.
Right.
That was always the joke.
But the reality is, is if we just turned the lights that were on that were eight feet high
and lower, it would have been a pretty dismal site.
Right.
Yeah.
Like it would have been like, oh, it would have actually felt really dark.
Right.
It would have felt like there wasn't much to this.
It would have felt in many cases, it would have felt lazy, would have felt like unprepared,
like half, like kind of half thrown together.
So then when you turn, but then when all those lights illuminate above that eight foot mark,
which by the way, at this event is I would say probably three fourths of them are above
that eight foot mark.
When all those lights illuminate, then it becomes so bright to where you don't need
a flashlight to walk around.
You don't need any of that.
Like there's just so much light everywhere that it encompasses everything.
Right.
However, those lights that are, those lights that are up that force us to look up, that's
what illuminates.
It's when we look up to Jesus, that things are illuminated in our lives, that things
actually begin, the good and the bad begin to be elevated in our lives so that we can
take care of the bad and then that the good can shine.
But that happens when we look, right?
Like if street lights were only six feet off the ground, this is another crazy example,
right?
They wouldn't be that effective.
They wouldn't even go over my head.
Yeah.
Is that valid?
Yeah.
What is it with your guys' dogs?
Your dogs are your house.
So Zaller is Pepper's brother.
Yeah.
They just want to be on the podcast.
Yeah, they do.
Yeah.
Pepper's barked on a number of times.
So with that idea, now we've been in Numbers 21 and I want to shift this story because
this story comes up again in a really major way in the Gospel of John, right?
The brother serpent is mentioned twice again, once in Second Kings, like we talked about
where they decided to start worshiping and miss the point.
The second time is in John 3 when Jesus is having a conversation with a guy by the name
of Nicodemus.
Now they're having a conversation about who Jesus is, but Jesus keeps showing Nicodemus
who Israel was supposed to be, right?
This conversation, when you hear it, now we have the benefit of knowing what happens at
the end of the story.
Yeah, hindsight is 20-20.
But the conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus, like they don't necessarily think that
he's talking, like Nicodemus doesn't necessarily think he's talking about Jesus.
He's talking about Israel.
They're having this conversation about Israel, which later he's probably like, oh, I get
it.
There's like a double use here.
Can we also acknowledge that Nicodemus' questions are very practical?
Very practical.
Like, if I was in Nicodemus' shoes, I'd probably be asking the same questions.
Well, when he's like, should I enter my mom again and be born again?
I was like, my mom would be like, no, you were big enough the first time, right?
So they're having this conversation about how they're supposed to be a born again nation
because they've passed through water, the Red Sea, and the Spirit, which is like lots
of places in Torah, but we could talk about Numbers 11, right, where the Spirit's multiplied
on them.
They're the firstborn of God, right?
People ask, who's the firstborn of God?
Well, obviously that's Jesus, but it's also Israel, right?
Israel is God's firstborn.
He's chosen them out.
They're supposed to be a kingdom of priests to the entire world.
They're supposed to be actually putting God on display so that all nations would be blessed.
And Nicodemus, of course, doesn't really understand what he means by that, right?
By being born of the Spirit.
So Jesus talks back to him and he says this, very truly, I tell you, we speak of what we
know and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe.
How then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the son of man.
Because Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the son of man must be lifted up that everyone
who believes may have eternal life in him.
Now we spent some time in Numbers 21.
Moving into John 3, I got a question.
Did God send sin into the world?
Yeah, I don't know if he did not.
No, of course he didn't.
Did God send the fiery serpents that bit people?
No.
They are just no longer under his cloud.
They stepped out of the cloud and now they're living on their own.
Is there any help outside of God for those that are bitten?
No.
Their only hope is to look up, to turn their face toward God, who is the only one who can
save them.
So with that in mind, now Jesus talking again of Israel, right?
And ultimately Jesus being a Jewish Messiah fulfills this, steps into this role, makes
a statement in John 3, 16 through 18, probably some of the most quoted verses in the Bible.
It says, for God so loved the world, he gave his one and only son, Israel, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God didn't send Israel into the world to condemn the world, but to actually save
the world through him.
Whoever doesn't believe in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned
already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only son.
This mission that they're supposed to be about.
This is the verdict.
Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their
deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that
their deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light so that it may be seen plainly that
what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
Now, Jesus steps into this role.
He is the suffering servant of Isaiah 55 who was supposed to be Israel.
He is the messianic figure promised in Genesis.
These are all things that Israel is supposed to be.
And so that's why it's really important that we understand Jesus as a Jewish messianic
figure, because it's through Jesus that all nations, and that's us, are blessed.
We've been welcomed in because Jesus stepped into what Israel was supposed to do.
And he is like that serpent lifted up high and we look to that cross, but we're not just
looking to the cross.
We're looking beyond it to the father who loved and gave.
Yeah.
I remember one time I was sitting in a Bible study and someone asked me like, Hey, what
is your favorite verse?
I was in like junior high or something.
And I just finished reading John three and a verse that stood out to me was John three
19, which is the, which is this is the verdict light has come into the world, but people
love darkness instead of light because, because their deeds were evil and everyone's whose
deeds were evil hates the light and did not come into light for fear that their deeds
would be exposed.
And the reason, the reason at the time that I was like, man, I really liked this verse
is cause it was Sadie, cause it was saying that like we live in a place where there's
people who are trying to hide, trying to hide who they are and God saying, no, I'm trying
to bring you in.
And so I shared that with the group and the youth pastor at the time was like, do you
mean John three 16?
I was like, no, no, John three 19.
He's like, I think you mean John three 16.
I was like, I'm not going to argue this right now.
I think it's more surprising to me that you didn't argue with it.
I just, I just didn't want to, I was, I was in junior high at the time.
Didn't feel the need.
But these, this passage right here is just so, so interesting because what it's not saying
is it's not saying that God condemned you, which is also echoed.
It's also echoed throughout Torah, like there is punishment for sin.
There was punishment for Adam and Eve eating the fruit, right?
Which by the way, I think is figs because they covered themselves in pig leaves afterwards.
That's not theologically sound at all, but that's just my opinion.
Whereas somebody who's like a Hebrew scholar, like, well, actually probably at some point,
but that's just, that's Spencer's little bit there.
So they weren't, there was consequences for that, right?
Like God stated the consequences in Genesis one and two where he was like, Hey, if you
eat of this fruit, you will die.
The serpent twisted those words and Adam and Eve ate of the fruit.
Their eyes were opened and they did eventually die.
Right?
There were consequences to that.
That wasn't actually God condemning them.
Right?
And then here you see Jesus echoing that where it's like, no, the Lord's not actually condemning
you.
Right.
What the Lord is doing is, but he's not afraid to let you live into your own actions.
God didn't send the snake, but he'll let you get bit if you want to get bit.
Right?
Right.
Yeah.
Well, dad, let me ask you this.
Were there any times growing up where you're like, Hey, I'm just going to let Spencer do
that and see what happens.
Yeah.
The dynamic of people wanting to try their own thing, right?
Rather than rely on the wonderful provision and protection and abundance of God.
It was dynamic that we struggle with every day.
And I think the posture of literally getting down on your knees and looking up in confession
to God to say, if I don't do this today, I can get lost so easily and be right there
grumbling and complaining as opposed to thanking you for your salvation, thanking you for your
vision and thank you for the abundance that I get to live in today, even when the circumstances
are hard.
I know I'm not alone.
Yeah.
So good.
What we've been talking about through the Torah series that, you know, the priesthood,
we're putting God on display.
The law is to put God on display.
Love is to put God on display.
Holiness, being different is to put God on display so that all nations will be blessed.
And Jesus invites us.
He doesn't command us.
He invites us to be a part of this.
And then if we're going to be a part of it, then we have a command to love each other
as he's loved us.
Yeah.
But first is an invitation.
Are you going to be part of this?
Because you always have the right, if you get bitten by a snake, to just sit there and
die.
It seems like a silly idea, but it is absolutely your right as a person, if you want to get
bit by the snake and die.
God didn't send the snakes, but he did provide a way for you to be saved from the snakes.
Yeah.
And one of the things I really appreciate about the teaching today and the conversation
is just this profound idea that number one, getting out from under God's protection is
not a place any of us should want to be.
Correct.
And yet we're so prone to wander there.
The second thing that's just huge for me is realizing that even when I do that, that he
makes provision and of course that's found through Jesus Christ.
And I'm so glad that we don't just stop by looking at the cross because what comes with
the resurrection and what comes with the Holy Spirit pouring over our lives is absolutely
life-changing.
And it starts going through the cross, but then it just keeps getting better and better.
And I'm so thankful for what you guys are doing in this conversation.
I appreciate that.
Man, we've liked having you on here.
Hopefully we can cajole you to come back on another episode.
So are you up to anything that people should know about anybody in your area that potentially
listeners would be like, oh, that's really cool.
I want to help in that.
Well you know, this book series is a devotional series, a well-planted faith in an uprooted
culture.
The first three are out, the publication's straight now.
And the whole idea there is to let God's word actually inform the kinds of decisions and
choices that we make in our lives.
And that's the whole motivation behind it.
So anybody that wants to get on board with that, you're welcome to.
Everything's available at Amazon, a well-planted faith.
We'll put some links in the show description.
We're going to probably throw up a couple of video recommendations on just some different
books because I read half of one of yours and I forget which one it was, but it was
good.
Usually I read half of it means that I lost the book halfway through.
I'm trying to figure out where my son put it.
I have another copy for you.
All right.
Well we really enjoyed having you on here.
If you want to reach us, you can email us at loveandcontext.gmail.com.
You can also find us on the Facebook, on the YouTube, on the Instagram, on the TikTok.
And oh, we do have our merch store up and we now have that shirt available.
The desert is really hot.
And by the way, we gave it to Pastor Nick's wife and she laughed for a long time and then
was like, I'm never going to wear this.
Yeah.
We gave it to her on a Sunday and we're like, you have to wear it while you're singing for
worship and she was like, no.
Yeah.
No.
We'll probably get Pastor Nick to do it.
But yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thank you so much, Ed.
Thanks for being here with us and until next time.
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you guys.
That's a wrap for today's episode.
We want to extend a heartfelt thank you for tuning in and spending your valuable time
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We hope that you found today's conversation insightful and that you take something meaningful
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for updates.
I read stories by like Harry, not Harriet Tubman.
Sorry, I really do that again.
We're digressing.
Yeah.
This part of the this part will definitely get cut.
Actually, this will probably end up in the bloopers.
Just so you know, like this, he's getting a peek behind the curtain.
He's like, oh, I can only imagine the stuff has been there.