Welcome to the love and context podcast engaging in unscripted conversations with your hosts Ben and Spencer
Whether you're tuning in from your car your office your home or anywhere in between we are so happy to have you join us today
Our mission is simple to explore the Bible through a powerful lens of love
Together will uncover fresh insights and gain deeper understandings of how we can love God and love the people in our everyday lives
So buckle up and join us on the spiritual journey as we discover timeless wisdom
That is just as relevant today as it was thousands of years ago without further ado. Let's dive right in
Welcome to the love and context podcast. I'm Ben
I'm not Ben. Yeah, you are not Ben and then we're also joined by our friend pastor Nick again today. I'm back
Yeah, he said that this time he'll actually talk and not just shake his head
Just a few words at this point in the series
I think we have said the desert is hot like a thousand times because your wife brought it up
I was really hoping to say that today. Yeah find the opportunity just for that. Well, they still are in the desert
So yeah, we are still in the desert. So like last week we literally said I think six times
Yeah, so it's just a thing now
So the last episode and ended up on this really good note because we talked about how
We're in the book of numbers
Whenever the cloud would stop they would camp and they would wait and then when the cloud moved they'd follow the cloud
And it was over and over again
It says in the scripture says when the cloud moved they was moved when the cloud stopped they stopped and it's like over and over again
It said this and you're like, yeah, I get the point. It's like but do you get the point?
Because we postulated that are the best thing we can do is recognize where Jesus is working and go there
And if he stays we stay and if he goes we go. Yeah
So that is the last fairly good story that happens for a little bit in the book of numbers because there's just there's a lot of
Stuff that is going on here because humanity we're kind of a mess sometimes just put it this way
Have you ever followed Jesus be like this is awesome. And then a week later you're like, why'd you bring me here?
Yeah, that's so good. What ends up happening right after this they set out and they're they're going from place to place
The first thing that happens is they start complaining. Of course they do naturally
naturally and
So says the Israelites complain and there's this word that they they have hardship and it might show up in your translations
But it isn't actually in the text says that they have they complain about hardship that word hardship isn't actually there
It's a supplied word and it's trying to help you make sense
But it says that they're just complaining because of their journey and the Hebrews it more implies that they're they're open murmuring
So it's like have you ever you ever gotten somewhere with your kids Nick? Yep, and you just hear like
How's it so better never never never ever ever, you know, there's mumbling and this is like current in the back seat
We take my kids
Okay, so when we vacation we vacation to other islands like Hawaii Hawaii and we're islanders
Here and so we don't drive that much
So we go to the big island of Hawaii
We hit 30 minutes in the car and my kids are complaining right want to be back at school, right?
They don't want it. They don't you know, it's bad if they want to be back at school
It's only 30 minute drive and they will they will cry there will be tears
Yeah
And there's like this undercurrent that's there since we're all about context if you knew Nick's son
Him saying he wants to be back at school. It's real bad
So there's like this undercurrent like this the Hebrew implies like there's an undercurrent of murmuring and specifically they're not just murmuring about the journey
They're murmuring about that. They're upset with God, right? And it says the translations that says that it displeased
But let's displease God
But if you actually go into the Hebrew, it actually means more literally it was evil in the ears of the Lord
Which is significant. Yeah, like that the English translation does not do it
Justice evil in the ears of the Lord is much worse than it was against the Lord, right? It's not some small complaint not shockingly
There's this fire that comes out from God, right?
So on that journey when they're murmuring and that your kids are like, I want to be back at school
I don't want to be in Hawaii. Is there the fire of Nick that comes out? I I do lose it. Yeah, that's legit
Yeah, let's go ahead and acknowledge that God probably doesn't lose it in the way that we lose it, right?
But there's like there is there is like this this fire that comes out
And so the last time they saw fire by the way was Nate Abedabai who which we talked about in the Q&A episode
Huh, and so naturally they're nervous when they see the fire because last time they saw the fire Lord came out
It consumed two people. Yeah, so they talked to Moses and he prays and the fire is removed, right?
And they named the place in memory of what happened there ideally not to be repeated. That's why you would name the place by that name
But the claims don't stop there. This is my this one gets really fun for me actually
Yeah, cuz then they start complaining about food now everyone who's sitting in this room recording this podcast has kids and it's our
absolute favorite thing when we when we make a nice dinner and
They're like no, I don't want anything to do with it
You know the best part about that is is when you make something and they're like I want chicken nuggets
You make chicken nuggets are like, yeah, where's the pizza and then you asked for chicken nuggets not pizza
Exactly
Yeah, exactly. And so here you have the Lord actually providing quite well for his people
It's not like he's giving them just enough to eat like they're actually eating well
Like a right man up from heaven and then they get to a point like I'm tired of manna
Yeah, if only we were back in Egypt where we were just slain. Uh-huh, right and
Foreman rabbit David Foreman who we recommended a couple times has a really interesting note on this
Is that they are asking about food because they're like we want cucumbers and we want
Watermelons or we want fish and it's all these things that are in the ground or on the ground or below
Whereas they're actually being fed from heaven and they're like we don't want the food from heaven. We want the food from
The earth. Yeah, God's actually literally feeding them from heaven
They don't want it and then he also makes a note that I think is really interesting
There is that the bread that come down from heaven is actually already bread
It's already bread but it says that they're taking it and they're actually processing it and changing it and shaping it and making it something
Different as well. So they're not even content with what God has given them from heaven. They're like now we're going to manufacture it even more
Yeah, now you could always take that too far 100% but I just think it's an interesting thing to note
Yeah, they're real discontent at this point. Yeah, they're like nothing but manna nothing
But this amazing thing that shows up literally six days a week. This is a really cool thing
Free food exactly but to be fair, I do want to talk about the other side of it
It is really hard to trust in the desert. Like it is an act of faith
Yeah, and it seems like their faith is being tested and the test isn't going so well now, right? No
Moses hears the complaints of the families and then Moses it says that he was also displeased
Which is just like the displeased above where it says it was evil in the eyes of Moses
Oh, really? So it was evil in the eyes of Moses. So Moses brings his complaints to God
He's like why me why all this burden? Why is it all mine?
Did I get birth to these people and it and it seems like we've heard this before. Yeah, so
Moses back in excess he was complaining
God interesting thing here is that God in that time met Moses and his complaints right and
Came up with a solution which was actually to send Aaron with him
Yeah to actually go and be his spokesperson because it was just it really got down to the front of it
Which is that Moses didn't want to go. Yeah. Yeah, and God was ticked off about that
But he's like listen, you're gonna go because Exodus is relying on you. Oh, yeah
Yeah, and yeah
And I love in that in that passage in Exodus which we're talking about the burning bush by the way
If you guys haven't figured that out in that passage where it says in God's anger. He sent Aaron. Yeah God was like, okay
I am not happy with you. But here's a solution. Yeah, exactly
Moses is just he's filled with these complaints and he's like he's like a it's it's too much
It's a burden. The people are a burden. Your your mission is a burden
I'm not capable. I can't do this alone. It's it's it's the burning bush all over again
It's it's it's almost like the Bible has these cycles that keep repeating over and over again, right?
Mm-hmm, not that real life is ever like that. No, not at all real life's never like that
Life's perfect 100% of the time. No problems whatsoever
I think that God's answer to this is really funny though because it's just a very strange thing
He says tell the people that they're gonna have so much meat
They're gonna be sick of it. There's gonna be so much meat that they could possibly handle now
I've never had so much meat in my freezer that I was just like I'm sick of it
This so this takes me back to a time of my childhood where like my mom made this like amazing homemade lasagna
Yeah, and she puts them on my plate and I was like, I don't really like this
And so as she do she takes like half the pan and puts it on my plate
She's like now you're gonna eat all of it like
I never complained about food after that, but it was like yeah
This is actually interesting the note coming back to Foreman's idea about this food from above food from below because it's actually all birds
Yeah, so which also be food from the sky as opposed to like fish
Which I don't think there's a lot of fish in the desert. Why is that neck? Because the desert's real hot
This is high-level stuff man. It's high level stuff. Yeah
Oh, man, your wife is gonna listen to this and be like these guys. Do they ever talk about anything worthwhile? Yeah
sometimes
So God says like his answer to like, oh man this burden these people are complaining like I can't do this
I can't bring out this leadership guys. Oh, wait, tell everybody that they're gonna have more meat that they can handle
They're gonna be so sick of it. Like they're gonna have to eat meat for like a solid month
Maybe like stop giving us meat
Yeah, but Moses I think is okay, so this is the guy Moses is the guy who's literally walked through the Red Sea
He's seen the ten plagues on Egypt. He has been to Sinai
He's literally held the carved commandments in his hands and he goes where are you gonna get all this meat from?
So Moses has his moments of doubt you're right after seeing all the miraculous ways that God has provided
And there's nothing to test your doubt as much as having to feed 600,000 people who are really picky
Yeah, so let's just take a moment here and say hey if Moses
doubted
After seeing the Red Sea parted
Like they're following a cloud during the day
Fire at night seeing the ten plagues take place all these things if he doubted like
Audibly hearing the voice of God and you're coming in. Oh, I never doubt God
Yeah, hmm. I bet you do. I bet you do question every once in a while and let's be honest like the problem isn't
Doubting is being ruled by your doubt
Yeah, if it's like it's one of those things where I'm reminded of the story in the New York Times
Where this guy comes to Jesus. He says if you can heal my child
And Jesus like what do you mean if that's Ben's living translation? He's not insulted bro. Come on
Yeah, what do you mean if he says with God all things are possible and he says I believe
But just help my unbelief
Like intellectually, I believe you can do this
Experientially, I've never seen it happen
Yeah, I've never seen it happen
Experientially, I've never seen it happen. Yeah
Which is just this true for following God in general though, right? Yeah
Very true
I don't want to stress that because I think we've made this culture in church in church culture where we're like
Oh, you need to be certain about everything
And first of all, I just gotta say you're not God so you're not going to be certain about everything
I'm laughing over here right now because it's what level of audacity and pride and vainness do we have to be like
Oh, i'm certain about everything and how quickly is God going to be like, let me take you down a peg
That's one of the reasons we make doctrines. Yeah, because we try to explain everything away
There is definitely let's say the big one that we always talk about the trinity now
There is definitely the infrastructure of the trinity all throughout scripture like you can see it, right?
It never actually tells you how that works. No
yet, I know a lot of people and i mean like maybe you do too like that just are like
This is exactly how it works. I'm like 100. Yeah, this is how this is happening. Yeah how it happened
I mean there may or may not have been multiple books written on this. Yeah. Yeah, one or two one or two at least
Uh, so in the show notes, we're gonna no i'm just kidding
My sarcasm is real strong. It's real strong. He he's had that second cup of tea and it's uh, it's really starting to hit. Oh, yeah
Um, but I think when we set people up where you're like, oh you can't ever doubt
I was like nope, but faith is operating in the midst of doubt
When I go to sit on a chair, I don't always know that chair is going to hold me up, especially okay
There's actually a really good story. So a few days ago. We were sitting around a fire
right, and I have a camping chair, which has
Been well loved is what we're gonna call it. Okay
And i've told spencer a few times when i'm sitting we're sitting out hanging out
I said one of these days i'm gonna sit on this chair and it's just gonna go kaput. Uh-huh. Right
Now I have faith that that chair is going to hold me up
I also have this doubt in the back of my mind that at some point it's just gonna fall apart. Mm-hmm
right
It'll happen at some point. It will happen at some point. Yeah
And faith will be rocked if my faith will be rocked
I was like, but can you imagine though that if I never had faith in chairs again because one broke
Like I would I gave up on the concept of chairs
Uh-huh because one chair broke. Yeah, and yeah, this is a lot of times what we do with our faith
We're like, oh this one thing that i'm confident about that god is doing it
It didn't work out the way that I thought it should right? So now I just don't believe god exists
Wait, what? Uh-huh. Tim Ross has that podcast the basement and some people like and some people don't that's fine
He reaches a very niche crowd one of my favorite statements. He talks about his he's talking about people going to church and they're like
Well, I went to church once and I you know, it just wasn't for me
He's like I went to a restaurant once and I got food poisoning. I said like I don't no longer go to any restaurant
I just don't go back to maybe that restaurant and people are like I had a bad experience at a church. Yeah, there's like
You know, I mean, I've had a bad experience at a church too. There's hundreds of thousands
There's hundreds of thousands of churches just in the u.s alone. I was like maybe just go to a different one
Maybe you had a bad experience. Maybe you got some food poisoning because on that day the food is a little rotten. Yeah. Yeah
Yeah, doesn't mean that all food is rotten. No
Moses is doubting God and he's like, I don't know if you can really do this God or where are you gonna find that much meat for?
600,000 men he apparently is not planning on feeding the women and children just the men God
Responds he says you need to just watch and see
Right now I are doing this whole section by the way the way that it's structured and verbalized
I believe there's probably a chiasm here some in some capacity. Mm-hmm. I can't find it, but I can feel it
Yeah, you know what I mean?
You can feel the repetition and the stories and the
Stories like yeah, like when once you've seen a few of them you start to recognize that something's going on here
Yeah in the section in numbers
It feels very disjointed because like you go from like this conversation about their displeased and then God's like well
I'm gonna send them more meat that they could handle
Can you really send them more meat than they can handle and God's like stand back and watch by the way?
go and get 70 elders and
Bring them back in front of the tent of meeting and I'm gonna take a portion of the spirit
That's on you and I'm gonna put it on the table
And I'm gonna take a portion of the spirit that's on you and I'm gonna put it on them. Uh-huh, right now
It just feels like the story is like moving in weird ways
It's only talking about this but then we're gonna talk about what's like a then C then B then D
It's like Spencer is telling the story. I'm not that bad worse. Okay. Yeah
But it's it feels like it's almost out of order a little bit
Huh, but what happens is Moses goes back and he tells everybody what's about to happen
He's like you're about to have more meat than you can handle and then he takes 70 elders with him
And then it says they go to the tent of meeting and the spirit rested on them and they prophesy but they did not do so again
Then it also says that there was two guys remaining in the camp, but the spirit rested on them as well
So apparently even if you don't come to the temple and God's gonna move it doesn't matter where you go
He's gonna get you anyways, huh?
so someone runs to tell Moses and they run into Joshua who then goes and tells Moses and they says we should stop them because
they're not over at the tent of meeting and
Moses me then makes a statement. He's which we would do well to hear. Are you jealous of me?
I wish that all the Lord's people were prophets that the Lord would put his spirit on them
Mm-hmm. Now this story right here guys is where we're gonna camp for a while
Because this is this is the crux of what's going on in this in this section of scripture
It's about the spirit being moved. Did you intentionally say upon there? No, I did not. Okay
We're gonna camp here that I gotcha. I was like, what are you talking about? What was the pun?
Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna camp here because I think this is this is a really big
Concept that we need to get around and there's a lot of facets to this. So we're just we're gonna take some time
We're gonna pull this apart and just talk about some connections to the New Testament some different things
Yeah, so one of the things that I've noticed in here
To get us kicked off is
Is that there's 70 but there's also 72. Yeah, right
Some of you were listening and you're like, oh, I've heard that before
Where have I heard that it turns out that in the New Testament like Jesus has 12 disciples who he sends out
But that's not the only time he sends people out on a mission
Another time he sends out 70 or 72 depending on who recorded it
There seems to be an implication connecting back to this idea of numbers
About the spirit being multiplied and being sent out and so now you have this whole idea of 12 originally
But 70 or 72 depending on which translation and it could be 70 or 72
Because the Greek is ambiguous and people think it's a textual mistake and I don't think it is
I think they did it on purpose to reference the story back in numbers
Yeah, that the spirit is actually being divided and going and the the prophets of the Lord are actually moving out
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so you have so like the parallel there and if you're looking for the story of 72
One of the accounts is Luke 10
Okay, and so there's the parallel there where you have the anointing of the spirit of the Lord coming upon the 72 and numbers
Mm-hmm, just so we're really clear on this and then in Luke 10 you have the Lord appointed 72
Yeah, just so we're really clear. It's not just yeah. Yeah. Yeah
Ben's like you just said what I said. I was like, yes, that's okay. That's what's reiterating. That's okay
I actually don't mind it when you repeat things that I say because somebody just seemed slightly differently
So somebody else is gonna hear what we said. Perfect. You know what I mean? I
Think there is there's some things that we need to really like latch on to in this story, right?
The first thing is this I hear people frequently talk in
In theological like circles and they talk about how the spirit didn't really come in like really powerful ways until Pentecost
And I was like, did you read the Old Testament?
Yeah, there's a lot of things happening by the Spirit of God now
I think that the difference between the Old Testament the New Testament is something we've talked about is that we become the temple and the
Dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and rather than the spirit resting on us. He resides in us. Yeah, that's the big difference
but the spirit is incredibly active in the Old Testament and incredibly active in the New Testament and
Depending on your theology
You're gonna recognize these incredibly active today. Mm-hmm. Yep. And so if that's true
We need to acknowledge that in the way that we pursue God. Yes. I
Want to I want to bring it back a little bit
There's a there's an interesting thing that happens here with these 70 elders showing up what just happened the people were complaining
Yeah, Moses is
I guess we could say losing faith not so much losing faith, but
He's struggling here and he's having this conversation with God which like you had said earlier at the burning bush is the same
Situation that was happening and then Aaron shows up God provides. Yeah somebody there
Mm-hmm to give him I don't know the strength or
The push he needed a teammate. Yeah to to keep that forward in in this situation
We're dealing with an even bigger situation where there's 600,000 people complaining. Yeah, which I am no politician
and
That's a lot of people complaining and so there's a different pressure there
You know in the past God's like you're gonna take the people out of Egypt. That's a future thing
This is going to happen. Okay, whatever God and then somebody comes to help
but now all of a sudden that has happened you've taken all these people out of Egypt and
They're staring at you. The mob is staring at you. Where's the food? I'm hungry
We don't want to eat this anymore. And now you're going back to God being like, hey, you know that this is difficult
And this is not fun. And what are we doing? Yeah, and I understand that idea
You know the mob coming at you like that. This is a this is a scary situation
So, you know you start to put that in context and as a leader I can see where it's okay
This is dangerous now real dangerous for me, but God provides and what giving him leadership and
Bringing his spirit on that leadership, right?
And and to take your point if you go back to when
Jethro comes and he's like wait Moses adjudicating every single dispute that's going on
That's a terrible idea. That's a tear
We need to take some people and they need to like take care of these things like we talked about a couple episodes ago
Can you imagine and you haven't heard this because we haven't posted it yet because then podcasts the way they work everybody
Just you know, we record them ahead of time because it takes me forever to edit out every dumb thing we say
You're like there's still a lot of things in the podcast. Yeah, just imagine what I took out so
I said, can you imagine at Apple if the CEO of Apple was taking like complaints like how much would he get done?
Next to nothing nothing and I always choose Apple because Spencer doesn't like having an iPhone. So
That's the way I'm under the bus app. There's a lot of Apple in this room
They're making fun of me because I have an Android, but I definitely have two Macs at the same time
It does feel like abusive in our relationship when you are part of a group text and the text is a different color
I lived in convenience you
So this coming back to that idea, you know
Once again, Moses is taking on the burden of everything. So we've just gone through Leviticus. We've had Levitical law
We've talked about Exodus. They put the tabernacle together. They're walking. They're serving they're running after God and
Once again, he's got this massive amount of like burden that he's putting on himself
Right. Do you think that everybody was actually complaining?
Probably not. Yeah, probably not. Have you ever had somebody come to you in the church and be like
Everybody is frustrated with the way that you teach
And it's always one maybe two. Yeah, like they're and they're real loud
So they're like real squeaky wheels, right?
Now if you have multiple different people come and talk to you about an issue
You can not be like, oh, maybe this is actually more widespread than we thought, right?
Okay, this is actually perfect because um, so you and I have both served in the worship pastor role, right?
So my favorite thing is when you get done with church somebody's like they're like, well, how are you gonna make adjustments?
I was like, let me tell you the comments I got today. The music was too loud
The music was too quiet. Yep, the drums were too loud. Yep. The drums were too quiet
Yep, the singers were I couldn't hear ben. I could hear ben way too much. I couldn't hear the guitar
The guitars are actually too loud. Yep. We are doing way too contemporary music. We don't do enough traditional music
We do way too much traditional music and there's like this huge list of things and I was like, so which
Voices am I going to listen to?
See me being the drummer over here whenever I hear people say hey the drums the drums were too loud
I was like, oh I can be louder
And they're like, oh, okay. Never mind. Yeah, and then we mic the drums. Yeah
But it's like, you know, which which voices are you listening to which I think is actually probably a solid perspective in general
Yeah, who's around you? Who do you trust that is around you to call out those things?
And to speak into those situations at our church. We have
The leadership team of three pastors, but then we also have a preaching team
And we have deacons and all of those people have
perspective and
Opportunities to bring things up in those different areas and that's important to us like just having
A variety of people from different backgrounds coming in
To have discussion and everything's fine. Everything's not fine. There's just a group of us and what's awesome is
Everybody cares and just wants everything to work
Out and everybody has that relationship with christ
And we see that so one of our deacons at our church. I do brazilian jiu-jitsu and he shows up
He's a wrestler and he started coming in and jiu-jitsu is I can only imagine what people think our church is like
I know like from the stories that we tell
Anyway, he shows up and we're on the mats trying to break each other's arms or choke each other out and we're talking about
revelation
And the people around us have no background in what we're doing and they're like, are you preaching to each other? We're like
No, not really. We're just encouraging each other. Like that's something that culturally we want to be in our culture, right as
What we do we encourage each other and I think kill each other. Yeah
Yeah, I think let me redirect this because I think we're actually hitting on something really important here
It's so moses makes a statement. He says are you jealous for me?
That i'm hearing from god or that the spirit of god is not moving only on me
It would be better that it's moving on everybody which is this idea. So like prophetic word
I think it gets misunderstood in the pentecostal church
Because a lot of times there's some people who do some really weird stuff with it
I was like, but on a very broad level prophetic word is god is speaking something to me
That is meant to speak into your life and encourage you in your walk with him
Yeah, it's not actually meant to bring condemnation. First of all
Don't speak condemnation
into people period and you're like, oh but god told me I need to tell them this and I was like listen
God is fully capable of telling somebody that they screwed up. Right. You ever heard of the conviction of the holy spirit?
It's a real thing. Yeah, you don't need to tell them that they done screwed up now
God might tell you to come to them and be like hey
I I just feel like god is telling me like
This is something that you're dealing with and that there's a way out
But that's meant for encouragement and to love and build people up
And so this whole idea of prophetic word is like who are you actually letting speak into you?
Yeah, because I was thinking about for myself
You got all these voices coming back to this worship analogy
That they have a bunch of different things that they could say
But let's go away from worship. Let's talk about like my life ben edwards when I look at my life
And i'm trying to figure out like how to walk with god
I don't listen to every voice that tries to speak in because as a person
I don't listen to every voice that tries to speak in because otherwise i'm not necessarily
Lining up with what god has called me to first of all
I'm in relationship with god studying the word in prayer all these different things and then there are a few people
In my life that I will allow to speak in no matter what
And then there's a lot of people that I will hear and I will just file it away
And then there's some that I will just literally put that on a shelf and never listen to it
Right because they don't come with the uh, they don't actually come in an attitude of love
They come in an attitude judgment, right? Right. And so until we actually are looking to love each other
I can't actually accept it
Now in our church you and pastor clint are people that if you are on you and I have been friends forever
Yeah, you know me you've seen what god has done in my life over the years
If you gave me a statement about something that god was speaking to you about me
I would give it a lot of consideration because I know that you wouldn't just do that willy-nilly
You're actually going to be considered what is god doing in my life?
Spencer is very similar
Spencer is very connected to my life if he thought that there was something going on that god wanted to move in my life
And do something different. I would give his word
considerably more weight because our relationship our love for each other our our
Community is a lot stronger above both of you if my wife speaks into my life
I'm gonna give her word a considerable amount of consideration. Yeah. Yeah
We have this tendency as christians
To try to receive every word that somebody would speak into your life and I think that's dangerous
Yeah, I know in my life i've had people try to speak into my life who
Really had no place to and so
And I know there's probably people who can I know there's people who can relate to that as well
But just because someone says they can doesn't mean that they're actually doing it for your good
Right. I've had one of the misconceptions i've seen in the church a lot of times is i've had people try to
Say hey the lord's telling me to say this to you and then they just come at you all condemning like
And then and then when you push back on it a little bit it really comes down to well
This is how it affects me and i'm like
Okay, so you want me to change so your reputation is not hurt, right? That's very different than hey
Here's a way that the lord's actually working in your life. And how are we coming alongside?
aside that person in love
There's also a consideration like how you're gonna say that so if you're if you are a person who like god is using to speak
Into other people's lives. I have a lot of friends who are not necessarily as open to the movement of the spirit
Like they're not for pentacosal theology and that's perfectly fine because I know god's gonna meet them where they're at and do their things
Like he does crazy cool things in their life anyways. Yeah
Yeah, but if I have something that I is like god is speaking to me about a lot of those i'll come up to them
I say hey, so I was reading the word the other day and I thought about this in your life. Have you considered this?
Yeah, I think this might be something that god is putting in your path. Yeah
Now I was like, what did I really just say i'm saying god spoke to me and I believe there's something for you
Yeah, but I phrase it in a way that they're capable of grasping it
Yeah, because the words are not as important is that the message is heard and the connection is made to god
Yeah
And if you're really obsessed with people being like, oh no, they have to understand it was a word of the lord
I got news for you. You're probably not bringing the word of the lord. You're bringing the word of something just not god
Yeah
So growing up in a pentacostal background or pentacostal one thing that i've been through years of different types of leadership and different types of
ministries
whether that's evangelists coming into the church or missionaries coming to church or
school or pastors whatever it is
Really that it comes down to
I take if somebody says something in my life one do I have a relationship with them and what's that relationship look like two?
Is that an encouraging word? Is there something in there that is going to build me up and allow that relationship?
Or reveal something
That furthers that relationship and three is it biblical in any way shape or form? Right?
Um, i've had a lot of prophecies come to me that were definitely not biblical
Yeah, and I don't know where that came from and I think people get hurt in that situation
Yeah, and to your point in that is that actually I believe it's in deuteronomy, but it says to test every word exactly, right?
So yeah, which means you also have to know the word to test it against. Yeah, exactly. And that's really important. Um,
I could tell you some weird stuff. I've heard prophesied over people. Yeah, we might have that in another episode
I might need to I don't want to say it right now. There's some weird stuff and it really comes down to does it build them up?
Is it in the word?
That biblical foundation if you receive a word for somebody else from the lord
You need to remember that word is for somebody else, right? It's not for you
Right. The lord's chosen you to speak that into their lives and that is a huge honor a huge privilege a huge blessing
But that word's not for you. It's for them, right?
So sometimes it might pertain to your life some too is the Lord's putting on your heart as the Lord puts on my heart
To say hey, I want you to go talk to Ben and I want you to say this
Yeah, right that words for Ben, right and he's just using me to give that word to Ben
right, and so a lot of times what I've heard in prophecies is people have
Twisted that around and tried to say this is what's really happening and how it affects me and it's like that's not prophecy, right?
That's you having an issue with that person that you need to deal with understand the difference there
Right. Yeah, and so for those of us so those of you listening that are not in Pentecostal churches
I want to just help you understand the broader definition of like prophetic word or speaking into people's lives
Like this is also just speaking the truth of God into people. Yeah, you might call it preaching the gospel reaching the word
Yes, all those different things
So when we speak into each other things from scripture if you're just speaking scripture into people
Make sure you're doing it to encourage them and not to condemn them like John 3
17 forgot to not send his son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through him
The world was already standing condemned because they hadn't believed because they're already in darkness
So they like darkness so like people don't need to be condemned. They're already sitting there in condemnation
We're actually showing them the way of the Lord. We're showing them the light
We are being salt and light to borrow from the Sermon on the Mount
Yeah, when you speak into somebody when you're speaking scripture when you're speaking words
However, that that shows up in your practice in your following of Christ. Make sure that it's like Paul says
Edifying building up that it benefits those who listen. Yeah and doesn't benefit just you now
It might benefit you also, but it should benefit them and then you as secondary. Yeah
Yeah, there's a fancy word that shows up in a lot of like legal documentation and it's a word called fiduciary
Fiduciary means that when I do something I do it for your benefit and not for mine
Yeah, so when I when you have a fiduciary
Relationship with somebody means every decision that you're making for them
Mm-hmm is for their benefit and not yours. That doesn't mean you won't benefit
But the decision of why you do it is for their benefit and not yours
Yeah, that's a really good way to operate with people. You know, so good
So the so the other place that this clearly connects with scripture is in
Corinthians when Paul actually says that I wish everybody would prophesy. Yeah, right now once again
I want to put prophecy and however you follow Jesus
Right. We are not telling you guys that you need to be Pentecostals. No, right
In fact, like we'll just agree or disagree on how we go about following Jesus on that. Okay
Yeah, we're gonna follow after Jesus because he's awesome and our opinions are less awesome
Right. Yeah, right. And so it's actually this when Paul's quoting this in Corinthians
It's a really interesting because he it references back
Shocker to parts of the Old Testament and not just to this story not just to Pentecost and Exodus
But also references back to I believe it's Joel. Yeah minor prophets where it says every man
Everyone will probably something your spirit will be poured out on all. Yeah, which references back over to excess too
Yeah, and so and and honestly that connects with when Peter is talking at Shavuot
Also called Pentecost and he says this is what was foretold
Yeah, when your spirit would be poured out on all flesh. This has been coming. This has been talked about in the Old Testament
This is not a new concept that comes to the New Testament. Yeah, right
I think we have a tendency to maybe think it's a new concept because we're like, oh, it's a new testament
I'm a concept except the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant
Jesus as a Jewish Messiah steps into the role of Israel
Redeems all of mankind and is a priesthood and it welcomes in everybody
Yeah, right and all spirit is poured out and people's fundamental natures are changed in their power by the Holy Spirit to live differently
So that we can subdue the earth fill it and bring glory to God. Yeah, so we can live up to the idea of the image
Without the spirit that's impossible. Yep
So you have Paul echoing Moses here where he's saying or he's saying no
Where he's saying that we are the body
We are the church and we are to go out and be the light in the community
Right. You have Moses saying the same thing when
Joshua which is really interesting Joshua the one who actually leads them into the promised land. Mm-hmm says
Moses let's make let's stay in the same place
Moses let's make let's stop this. Yeah, put an end to this and Moses is like, what are you talking about, bro?
Like he's no this is great. Don't you want this? Don't you want the outpouring of the spirit on all of God's people?
so
When you're saying that the star remember the story about Jesus and his disciples and they're like Jesus these guys over here are preaching your
Your word, but they're not with us
He's like, yeah, whoever's not against us is for us. He's like your point is
He's like you you can't proclaim these things by accident the kingdom like you're proclaiming the kingdom
Uh-huh. Go ahead and let them do it. Even if they're doing it with selfish motives
Let them do it because at least the kingdom is going to be proclaimed. That's something that Paul says. Yeah
And by the way, love and context we talk about that a lot
There's a reason we don't talk about people badly from our platform. Yeah, because even if they're preaching for selfish motives
The gospel is still preached. Yep
And people are still changed even with like awful pastors people still come to find christ in spite of them
Uh-huh, right because often god works in spite of us not because of us. Yes. It's so true. It is so true
So true one of my favorite stories revolving around that like god working in spite of people is the in the story of Jonah
Uh-huh
Like Jonah does not want to go to Ninevah. He does not want to preach
By all accounts Jonah is a horrible prophet. Yeah, and it's a piece of it's definitely a book of satire
Like it's like purposely set up like that
But I want to focus in on the fact that it says Ninevah it takes three days to walk through which is a massive city
Yeah, it says that Jonah walks in one day
So he doesn't even get halfway through the city and then he preaches a sermon that is five words
once and then he leaves
And then he goes and sits on a hill. He's like burn them. Yeah burn everything
He's like he's okay god. I preached like you told me I had to
And the entire city and the animals which is why like once again satire
All this city and the animals repent in ashes and sackcloth. Uh, like pleading to god for forgiveness
Uh-huh. Okay
If there's not a story of god working in spite of us
Uh-huh. It's that yeah in this story joshua comes and he's like hey these guys aren't with us
They didn't come to the tent of meeting like they were supposed to and the spirits on him
We should stop them and most of us like come on, dude
Don't you see what's happening? God is moving and they're a part of what God is doing
We're going to rejoice in it not freak out about it. I wish everybody. Yeah
And we should be extremely grateful. That's how the lord works
Because you look through the old testament and new testament that story happens again and again
Where people are like no i'm not going to do that and then god works through them. Yeah, right
I think this happens sometimes in denominationalism in today's culture
Where somebody comes to christ and let's just say they're not a good fit for your church. That's okay
Like I would rather somebody connect somewhere that they're going to grow in christ off
Then just come to our church, right?
Because we're not trying to build our church. We're trying to build the kingdom, right? Yeah, and the kingdom is the part that's going to move forward and has no bounds
Right god is going to move through the kingdom. Okay, so you're not a good fit here
Let's find a place that you're going to connect and grow
I've gone to churches where it was really hard for me to connect and when god released me
I was so thankful that I can move on to somewhere else. Yeah, and they weren't bad people
It was not a good spot for me. Yeah with all of that said
I just want to put a challenge out if there's any pastors or ministry leaders listening
Get to know the other ministry leaders in your community and learn how to work with them. Oh, yeah
Like I was a part of I was a past I was associate pastor at church for a few years
And the town that we were in it was one of those things where six months into the job. I was sitting there and I was like
Hey, do we know pastors at other churches and they're like, oh no, I don't even know they're not
I was like, oh, we should probably get to know them and so I started going from like church to church
And I couldn't make it past the secretary half the time like it was like what is going on here?
And they're like, oh no, they don't have time for you
I'm like, I'm a fellow kingdom worker here and I just want to get to know their name see their face say hello
Let them know
What church I'm at what we're doing love to hear the story about what you're doing
So that I can know where to send people if we're not a good fit and let me tell you the church that was some of the toughest ministry
Because when you have people leave the church, they didn't know where to go or we have people be like man
This is a really hard place for me to be I didn't know where to send them. It's difficult and it's very difficult
So if you're in a community get to know your minister fellow ministry leaders
Yeah, build good healthy relationships with them and not to mention you're gonna be able to put them in a place where they're not
They're just fellow ministry leaders. Yeah, build good healthy relationships with them and not to mention you're gonna be able to partner to do awesome things
Yeah, yeah partnering together. We are the king like the kingdom, right?
Yeah, right and and a hundred percent there's some things we got to agree on we got to agree that jesus is lord
Yeah, we got to believe that he came back from the dead that he's given us a changed nature
We're empowered by the holy spirit to live differently that scripture is real, right?
And then beyond that let's not get bent out over semantics
I mean some of the things we talk about contextually on the podcast if somebody disagrees with us, we still love you
Yeah, yeah, you're still a brother sister in Christ
let's take one step back here and then let's put the story back in perspective because we've talked a lot about how this spirit movement is
Really big deal and understanding like the movement of the spirit and what voices are you listening to?
Uh-huh. So in this story it starts with them complaining about and gone evil in his ears
And then they get afraid because of the fire. They're like, well remember having lots of time with fire
And then they complain again about food and moses
He complains about the burden of leadership and god says not only am I going to deal with the food
I'm also going to alleviate some of these issues with
Leadership. I'm actually going to appoint people in
leadership
To work through here with you, right?
Now, you know what comes out right after this story, which we're actually going to be talking about next week
Is that?
Miriam and erin start to grumble about moses's leadership
So now this burden is taken off of them because moses like I can't handle this on myself
God actually brings more people to help carry the load
And then immediately the people who were in leadership originally
start to feel intimidated like
That's so
On par with everything that I have seen in the church, right?
Especially like pastors when they're trying to train people to be pastors
They're always worried about them taking their position, right?
Yeah, one of the things that I respected a ton that both nick and clint do at our church
Is that they are intentional about raising other people up to speak to lead?
To facilitate it's almost like they're trying to give away their job
Yeah
It's almost like they're equipping the body to move
Yeah
But it becomes really paramount in all of those leadership talks that we don't become
Conceited in what we're doing but rather recognize that it's the spirit of the lord brewing through us back to what spencer said
You're actually speaking a word for somebody not your word to them
Yeah, and there's a there's a great thing that we see. I think it's in the next chapter with moses
Where we find that moses is the most humble man in the entire earth is the writing and as leadership
It's not our ministry. That's the most deadly phrase i've heard in any ministry is oh, this is my ministry
Yeah, it's not my ministry
It's god's ministry. It's god's people right we get an opportunity to lead
Yeah, and equip like that. That is the purpose of leadership, right and we just see that in in america
It's all corporation. I own a business and the way I think about my business is different than how I think about ministry
Yeah, there's some crossover and ideas and teaching
You know growing people but my my goal in business is
To make money and my goal in church is to equip and build the church. It's not my church
I gain nothing. Yeah, even like the idea of like my church is like it's is like our city
Like we're part of the city church, which is part of the state church, which is part of the national church
Which is part of the global church. All right newsflash
Jesus is part of all that. Yeah
The huge part of it so i'm going to give you a little push back on the humbleness of moses because I remember at
The beginning of exodus that he wrote this line about being a fine young baby
right
I think we're getting some ben semantics here. Yeah, no, I just remembered that so if you remember back in the beginning of exodus
We moses writes this thing about he was a fine child
Yeah, and so moses being the guy who wrote the book of exodus or is at least a scribe to have written it was writing about
How fine he was as a baby? Uh-huh. Yeah
Yeah
humble
Yeah for the most part in verse three. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, I also isn't it like the epitaph is can you imagine? Okay, so
This is a little bit like the epitaph that comes into drama. It's way in advance. Imagine if moses wrote that before he died
He just never has there been a man who was so close to god that we've talked with god face to face
Yeah, so great
Yeah, no, it's more likely that subscribe to my uh, joshua or one of the guys who came after him. Yeah
So to tie it all together
It becomes really important that we respond to the spirit and in humbleness right that we follow god in humbleness
Because being in the desert is an act of faith
Like egypt is oppressive, but it's understandable
Yeah, right understand like your role as a slave
But when you're in freedom and you have to follow the cloud and you don't know when the cloud's moving
Right. Yeah, that's an act of faith and it just requires a different set of muscles. Yeah. Yep. Yeah
Thank you all for joining us today
You can find us in all the usual places spotify apple
I'm saying spotify first because i'm an android user at heart
So we have to go we have to go the more android route than the apple route to start with
Ben's shaking his head at me right now. It's so great
So you can find us at spotify you can find us apple podcast amazon music
And then lots of other places as well youtube over there. We instagram facebook the tiktok
We are on the tiktok. Yeah, so we're actually gonna try at some point to start posting live clips of us actually talking
Cool, we might break some cameras. We might break some cameras heads up. Yeah
Also, one of the things we're gonna start putting out there too is we're gonna start giving some book rep recommendations
And we're gonna talk about the books and why we recommend them
cool because we've got a ton of stuff that we reference and
Some of you have been asking like where are you getting this material?
Like where do you even start and we're gonna try to give you some things that are approachable and you can get a handle on
Cool. Yeah
Till next time folks. Bye. Bye
That's a wrap for today's episode
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This guy right here. Yeah, just shake your head
nod
Yeah, all right, so it's gonna roll
And this is where ben gets to edit the podcast this is where ben gets to edit
Actually left the lights on your truck
Now that was that I know guys can restart the battery that that's gonna that's that's gonna be a blooper right there. I I
This is where
This is where I have to cut out like a minute and a half of random stuff
Stuff random stuff we're like eight minutes in all you've done is laugh at us