Welcome to the love and context podcast engaging in unscripted conversations with your host Ben and Spencer
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Welcome to the love and context podcast with Spencer and Ben. We're here to talk about Bible stuff
This week is the long-awaited
Maybe slightly contested
Q&A
It actually hasn't been contested on our end if anybody is contesting this Q&A, please email us
However, you'll be too late on the email at this point. Yeah, this is the Q&A episodes
We received a number of questions from different people and probably should have given a more narrow scope, but that's probably that's all right
Yeah, that's all right
so
you know the reality for us is that we realize that we're gonna be talking and breezing through some topics and like sometimes we're not
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Social media. Yeah, so let's just jump in right? Let's just jump in and jump into a question
So I got this question to the email. It said since Abraham Abraham
Was commended for his faith?
What does faith look like in a rabbinic tradition? It's a great question. It is a good question
Yeah, so on a very broad level we're not gonna get into like specifics because it's gonna that'd be a very long episode if we
Did that it would be multiple episodes. Yeah, I'd be multiple episodes. Yeah, but on a very broad level
Faith is what you actually enact in your life
Right. I think about in the New Testament where Paul makes a statement
He says if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. Okay, we read past that and we're like, oh you make a public declaration
Okay, but think about where they are. They're in Rome where everybody has to say that Caesar is Lord
Mm-hmm. Not only that they're in Rome in a time going into persecution
Like persecution hasn't fully set in in Rome yet
But there's actually some arguments of timeline there
But regardless either persecution is happening or it's very close to happening and regardless there under captivity either way
Yeah, and so when you acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, you're saying that Caesar is not
Mm-hmm, and that is a very big deal because what you're doing is now your future is tied to Christ and
Putting him into practice in your life
And denying Caesar as Lord also denied your ability to participate in marketplaces
Social status in communities so on so forth. Yeah, potentially depending on the area region you're in
So when we're talking about what does it look like to have faith in rabbinic sense? It is a belief that enacts change
Mm-hmm, right. We tend to look at from an Western perspective. We look at belief as like an intellectual ascent
Right a good one for us to reference here is the first episode of Bayma
They say what is Bayma and Marty Solomon goes into a lot of things about Eastern versus Western thinking
Right that's gonna clear up a lot of these things about how does faith work? Yeah, but in a Eastern perspective
If you have faith in something you demonstrate it by what you do not what you think. Mm-hmm
Which is a really important thing for us to understand as Westerners that there's a lot of people who think oh, yeah
Jesus is Lord. Mm-hmm, but if you don't actually live like it, it doesn't impact you in any sort of way
Yeah, I got news for you. You may say it but it's not true. Mm-hmm, because if he was Lord
You would actually live your life like you belong to a monarchy. Yeah
Yeah, and we put our faith in a lot of things that we enact a lot of people
A lot of people I mean really practical and a lot of people put faith in money
Yeah, right where the more I'm going to make an enactment by saving more or investing more or spending more or whatnot
Right, like we can put faith in believing that that has power we can put faith in
Social justice issues around the world of like if I do this we're gonna solve that issue or help solve this issue
Which may be true may not be true. Okay, if you are doing that great
I'm a huge social justice advocate and I love it when I see people step up and be like we are going to dedicate
A good portion of our life to seeing something and or something start that is good
So so when you're enacting that though, that's what we're talking about. Mm-hmm
Yeah, like faith in something means you actually believe it to actually do something
Like you're actually placing your weight in it. Yeah, I wait is actually probably a good way
I believe in the Hebrew as do with like have you actually placed your weight on it? And I think one of the very common stories
You'll hear told from pastors some stage which I actually think is completely appropriate
You say you have faith in Jesus and like you can say that you have faith in a chair
But until you sit in it, mm-hmm
like
Do you really have faith in that chair? Yeah
I have faith in elevators to elevate me and de-elevate me because I step into them and push the button
I have faith that coffee is gonna help wake me up. Yeah, which sometimes works
I should specify that I did step in an elevator and it went
And I did not have faith that it would take me to where I needed to go
So I stepped out and I took the stairs
So like I demonstrated by my action whether or not I had faith in it. Yep. Yeah
So when we're talking about Abram and Abraham were commended for his faith, it means that he actually put into practice
Demonstrating that he trusted that Yahweh was true to his word. Mm-hmm
And how did he do this? He did this by leaving his family and following God now
See we view this in a Westernized context of like, oh, well, you're stepping out on your own and can justify it that way
The context Abram was in was so family centric. It was like no, no, no
No, you stay with your family
If you get married and that person gets brought into your family
If you're a man and you marry a woman that person's brought into your family and you stay with your family
And then when the head of the family dies, there's a whole pecking order of who is now in charge
Mm-hmm. And so God's showing up to Abram saying go is
To say leave the whole societal norms that you know and follow me
That's so good. So hopefully that that that helps there
We're not gonna spend a lot more time on that and that might be an episode where we talk about I'm gonna call it Church
Ease, yeah, we say I don't quite understand what the church is saying where we talk about a lot of these concepts and break
Them down into plain English. Mm-hmm
Here's another one. I love this one. What does the word law mean in the scriptures?
right, mm-hmm, and
I mean my first initial impression is going to say a lot of things. Mm-hmm, right?
So I was listening to listening to a Jewish linguistic professional
And she was talking about the interpretation of the word law. And so sometimes in our translations
We have law sometimes we have commandment. Sometimes we have decree we have statute like they're they're translated differently
Now when we read those a lot of times, I think in American society, we view those all as the same thing. Yeah
But they're not actually the same thing
They're different Hebrew words some words that are given are pictorially or
Linguistically linked to the idea of cutting into stone. Yeah, right. These are immovable commands
Think of the words of God, right? These are immovable commands
These are innu- innu- immovable instructions that are meant to be a lasting vigil all throughout their life
There are other ones that are more linguistically connected to a rushing river
Mm-hmm, which the implication is that if you step into this it's going to take you to where it's supposed to go. Mm-hmm
Right. So my point is that there's a lot of different ways you can understand law
But I think that the worst way you can understand it is the way that we
Americanize it and say that law means something that you violate and you get in trouble for yeah
Because I think that even just going through Leviticus we talked about
The law isn't meant to just correct bad behavior
It's actually supposed to promote a specific kind of behavior that puts God on display. Mm-hmm. I have nothing that you have nothing that
Oh
Man, that's so funny
This is this is one connected to that that I think is I've been looking through these questions and figuring out how we can kind of
link some of these
But they were they're asking what does the expression works at the law mean when Paul uses it?
Right now if you listen to our episode where I think it was the moral law versus the works of the law
We talked a little bit about Galatians. Mm-hmm, right and
There was a fancy phrase that I used it was mix a te a tora, right works of the law
and
specifically what Paul is referring to is the things that you do that make you Jewish
Literally Jewish like the things that you're asked to do or or
Put on yourself that like make you distinctive from everybody else
Right, which is really important because we just talked about that in Leviticus as well. Yeah
Circumcision right bearing the sign of the covenant. That's one of them not wearing blended fabrics and not cutting the ends of your field
These are works of the law that are designed to make you look different than everybody else
So I think my favorite one in there is and we talked about last week in Leviticus 19 where it says not to trim like the
Edges of your beard, right?
Stuff like that, right? I think that's my favorite one. Yeah, one of these days
We're gonna get a video going and you'll be able to see that Spencer has quite the beard
So you you interpret these and sometimes you read the laws you'll be like, oh, I don't understand how that applies
Well, because you got to put it in context. So if you're wondering why that one go listen last week. Mm-hmm
You know, I mean
modernize it a little bit just so you can get yourself in the zone and then take yourself out of that zone and put yourself in
The context was of which it's written
There are specific things as Americans
That we do that make us look like Americans. Mm-hmm, right? I'm not gonna get into that. I don't want to get political
But there are specific things we do as Americans that make us look more American
Yeah
So the idea when you see works of the law showing up in the writings of Paul
Paul is referring to something that was understood in their time as a specific set now
I have heard some scholars and I disagree with that
Now I have heard some scholars and I disagree with them
Mostly because they're not New Testament scholars and other New Testament scholars will actually tell you that during this time of rabbinic conversation
There was a set of laws that they looked at
That's why they call it the mix of a tear out the works of the law
And this is what Paul was referring to
Right and it's very clear if you understand rabbinic conversation during that time that that's what Paul is referring to
So I think what happens is we get into Galatians and we're like
Oh, well, Paul is just saying that Gentiles don't have to follow the law
No, he says you don't need to follow the works of the law because the works of the law the things that make you
Jewish and make you holy the way that God is holy are never the things that justified you
Your justification doesn't come from observance of the law
It comes from God. Mm-hmm always
That's why Paul comes back and he says that Abraham speaking of our first conversation. He was justified by faith
Because he heard what God promised and he lived in such a way that he believed it
Yep, which is really important because we hear about the work of Jesus Christ
Uh-huh, and we say we trust in our
justification because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm and because of that
We're saved
What Paul isn't saying is now the law has no bearing on you. Mm-hmm
Because he's not talking about Torah. He's talking about a specific subset
Of what the Jews were supposed to do to put God on display. Yeah
Right. Yeah, this actually comes back later in the book of Acts when the disciples decide what did the Gentile believers actually need to observe?
Yeah, right and this is a very important nuance guys
And the reason is so important is because there's a lot of what I call supercessionism in the church
Where we say the church has now taken the place of Israel on a broad level. Sure
I get I get what you're saying, but we were actually grafted into the tree of Israel. Mm-hmm
And so Israel has grown into the church
Israel has welcomed us in as foreign correct
Correct. Just because there's more of us than them doesn't mean we're not part of their family. Mm-hmm
Yeah, you think that that's gonna get us a soundbite and probably probably yeah
We might get us out of love and out of context how to love it out of context from Nick. Yeah, man
Oh, actually, this is actually great because if someone just course co-incides with what we just asked
It says does Paul teach that the Old Testament laws now?
abolished
No
No, and I'm gonna reiterate no because Paul is always translating Jesus to the nations
And Jesus said that not one dot or iota is gonna be removed
But rather it's being fulfilled by Torah made flesh. Yeah, Jesus himself said I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it
Yeah, and Paul reiterates that Paul being a Jew. Mm-hmm being a Jewish teacher
Paul would be someone who he's not abolishing it what he's saying. He's saying I see that Jesus fulfilled all of this
So he's not saying it's void. We don't need to worry about it
We don't need to do do what it says or anything like that. It's not what he's saying. He's saying that
Jesus fulfilled everything that was said in the law, right?
This is what John is saying at the beginning of his book
He says in the beginning was the word the word was with God the word was God
He was with God in the beginning and the word was made flesh, right and tabernacle among us
Jesus is Torah made flesh. Yes. Jesus is the representation of what Torah looks like when a person follows it
Yes in the world. Mm-hmm, and it's important that we understand
So once again going back to Galatians, which is where a lot of people get this idea that Paul is like, hey
I'm just abolishing Torah. No, Paul is saying that
Gentiles you're not justified by the things that make you Jewish
Just like the Jews have never been justified by the things that make them Jewish. They've been justified by their faith in God
Yeah, and you also need to look at Galatians. You need to have a little bit of the context of the conversation
The church was having at the time. Yeah, which was hey, we want to share Jesus with these foreigners
Mm-hmm, but do we make them live by the standards that we have said yes to correct?
Yes, the God fearing Gentiles people are already going to synagogue on a weekly basis
That were on the peripheral like they wanted to be part of it
And so when Paul came through and he preached hey
Everybody's welcome in by the faith in Jesus Christ now coming behind him come other Jews who are also believers in Jesus
So we don't want to like be too hard on them, right? Yeah, but they're like, oh well
No, you actually have to be a Jew too. Yeah, and they just don't understand what Jesus is doing
Mm-hmm. I like to draw like modern parallels, right?
If someone comes into church who maybe doesn't have the most appropriate tattoo on them, right?
And they say yes to Jesus they start following Jesus, right?
They are actively in the process of their relationship being restored to Jesus
Okay, but they still have that tattoo, right?
Mm-hmm. Are you gonna tell them well in order for you actually be restored to Jesus Union?
You'll get that lasered off, right?
I think we have a hard time like wrapping our brain around is that we have the same call to bring Kingdom heaven to earth
Yeah, but the call on Gentiles and Jews and Jews is completely different on how we accomplish that
Yeah, and we are meant to complement each other not antagonize each other
Mm-hmm, by the way denominations. I'm talking to you. Mm-hmm. We're meant to complement each other not antagonize one another
Yep in Galatia these God-faring Gentiles responded to Paul and the other guys come and say well
No, you got to get circumcised because otherwise you're not gonna participate in the kingdom to come. Mm-hmm
and Paul's like listen if
You have to get circumcision now in order to participate to the kingdom that comes then Jesus was a worthless sacrifice for you
Mm-hmm
You have to understand that if you think God is holding out on you you're falling prey to the exact same thing as the garden
Yeah
Through Jesus Christ. He is not holding out on you you accept through faith and your identity is carried up to the very throne rooms of heaven
Amen, so don't think you're justified by what you do
Now I think I think probably where the person is going with this is question is I think that sometimes maybe the the focus after
That is that okay, but now you don't have to do any of the law. Yeah
I was like, well, no the law is meant to bring life. It's meant to put God on display your life should put God on display
Yeah, but you're not following the law religiously
You feel following it through relationship with Christ and by the leading of the Holy Spirit
Who brings the fruit of the Spirit in your life?
Side note a lot of the law
That we were like view is restrictive is actually echoed in a lot of Paul's writings a lot of Peters writings
James John a lot of the law is actually echoed
Contextualized for the modern culture. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. I'm trying to follow a theme here because there's a bunch of questions
So I'm just kind of following a little bit of a theme
How much damage do we cause when we apply the teachings of the Torah?
Without considering what it meant to those it was directly given to
We cause a lot of damage
Would we apply the teachings of the Torah and not consider the context of which they're written and who they were written to and
Why they were written to them. Let's like let's add that on there, too
Torah was not written to be restrictive. It was not written to just give a set of rules
it was written to reset you apart and
Bring you into a restored relationship with God because forgiveness of sins will happen in the Old Testament
There was a system set up for that so you could have sins forgiven and you could be
Set apart and have a restored relationship with God
And it was an ongoing thing you had to do through sacrificial system so on so so forth
But the nature never changed but the nature never changed
The other thing I would say with that is you need to understand the context of cultures surrounding Israel in the time that Torah
Was written correct because if you don't understand that it's not gonna make a lot of these laws aren't gonna make sense
Well, yeah, like when we talked about Leviticus 19, we're like, okay
God says I'm gonna have you do these things so that you're holy like I'm holy. Mm-hmm
Okay, you're gonna be different than everybody else around you. Yeah, don't prostitute your daughter
Yeah, and which like we're in the westernized concept. We're like, well, yeah
No, duh in that but in that culture there were surrounding cultures where that was a common thing to do for worship to their gods
Was the prostitute their children?
So God saying no, we're not gonna do that because we're gonna be set apart
Yeah, I also think that it's important to know that once again, this is God affirming the value of women. Yeah, right
right I
Think it's a really important and once again linking back to that
What is Baymah and I think it's episode negative one. I thought it was what they call it or something like that
Yeah, but this this idea when you go and interpret the Bible, there's there's a couple things you got to remember who's speaking
Mm-hmm. Who are they speaking to? Yeah, what does the person speaking think they're saying?
Mm-hmm. And what does the person hearing think they're hearing? Yeah, then like who you said what's going on culturally with them?
But also culturally around them and then the other thing you also have to think about the type of literature that you're engaging
But the type of literature makes a really big difference
For example, if you read a story or if you heard me tell a story me and I said I went to the store one day
To buy a gallon of milk. I wanted to wear my plaid, but instead I wore a shirt of silk and you took that as an essay
What's the problem with that?
It's clear that I'm speaking in poetry. Mm-hmm, right? There's rhyme. There's cadence
There's all these different things that are going on inside of my language when you're saying I wore a t-shirt to the store
Yeah, yeah, exactly
Yeah, exactly. And so there's a different kind of literature. So when you go and you say, okay
I'm going to interpret all of these books exactly the same. There's a problem with that
You can't interpret Genesis the same as Leviticus because they're different stories
Mm-hmm, exactly. And so you got to understand you got to understand that
As far as the context goes and you could I mean you could tie that to modern-day parallels as well
We live in Alaska, right?
One of the cultural contexts that we have to know really well is airlines. Mm-hmm
When I lived in the lower 48, I did not have to know airlines well
Right because I could just drive wherever I wanted even if it was cross-country
I was like I could just go do that the question my cars would make is another story
But I've seen your car so I would I would question that as well. Yeah, but here you got no airlines
Right, you got to know how to book flights
Whether that's a small charter plane through Alaska Airlines or whatnot. You just got to know that type of stuff
You got no ferry systems. So we have a little bit of a culture. That's a little unique to us, right?
but that doesn't mean that we live outside of
Of the rest of the US culture. So with that said we have to understand the culture we're living in
We also have to understand that the cultures around us as well. Yeah
Involving yourself with people from different cultural backgrounds is going to make you think differently about literature you read. Mm-hmm
I know that the South Korean couple has forced me to think linguistically much differently than I
Oh, yeah, they're members of our church and and like it's forced me to think
Significantly differently about the way I speak. Yeah
All right. So here's here's a fun one. Are you ready for this one? Yeah. All right
What about NADAB and Abihu what's going on with that story? What is strange fire?
So, you know no heavy hitters at all. This is just a nice like go for the softball
Yeah, it's like here's an easy question
They have in bayou
I believe that's in Leviticus 10, correct? I believe so. Yeah. Yeah, and luckily I go to numbers too, right?
Yes, they will they mention mention it in numbers
So for those of you that are listening that are having difficulty like placing that so we did not talk in depth on this story
Because I didn't want to take away from the broad meta narrative. Mm-hmm, right
So Spencer has some great that now just kidding I'm gonna throw him under the bus here
So it's a great story but it is it is actually a really interesting story
And so I'm gonna give you some thoughts on it
But I'm mostly gonna encourage you to go on and do some reading yourself
So there are a couple interpretations of this story
One of the things that I has happened very frequently is people talk about unauthorized or strange fire
And they've compared it to a charismatic movement. That is a completely inaccurate and poor exegesis
Exegesis being interpretation of Scripture in context. So let's talk about what's going on
God has set up the tabernacle and he's appointing Aaron as high priest and the sons as priests underneath him
He's getting ready to consecrate them. They're having a celebration
They've been eating and they've been celebrating they've been consecrating they've been doing all these different things, right?
And then God has Moses go into the tent of meeting
With Aaron and there and the cloud of God is above and then fills the area. Yeah, right and
Then it says that Aaron's sons Nate Abinabai who took their censors
These are the bulls that they have and they put fire in them. So they lit them on fire and added incense
Okay, and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord contrary to his command
So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them and they died before the Lord
Moses then said to Aaron this is what the Lord spoke among you when he said among those who approached me
I will be proved holy in the sight of all the people. I will be honored and Aaron remained silent
And it says that Moses summoned my Michelle Michelle and El Zafon man. Those are great names, huh?
sons of Aaron's uncle Uziah and said to them come here carry your cousins outside the camp away from the front of the sanctuary so
They came and carried them still in their tunics outside the camp as Moses ordered
then Moses said to Aaron and his sons
Eliezer and Ithamar do not let your hair become unkempt and do not tear your clothes or you will die and the Lord will be
Anger with the whole community, but your relatives all the Israelites may mourn for those the Lord has destroyed by fire
Okay, you read the story and you go what the heck is going on. Mm-hmm, right? I think that's pretty normal reaction to this
Yeah, so in Exodus, there's actually a story that mirrors this very similarly when they come to
Sinai
God calls Moses up and he's supposed to take Aaron native and Abihu which is they're actually named there and 70 elders with them
Up the mountain and they they see God whatever that means
Right and there's like the lapis lazuli like this whole section there with the whole area covered in it
Which is a precious gem and then they sacrifice animals. They eat they're there for seven days
And then on the eighth day Moses goes up into the cloud. Mm-hmm
So there's a there's a mirroring in the text like these things happen in succession orders. Yeah
right, so this is a a repeat of what happens except Aaron and
Moses and native and Abihu they go up the mountain and then they all have to stop. Yeah, and Moses goes on
So what happens here in Leviticus? They don't stop
Once again, they go up and all of them are going and they have to stop again
And now Aaron and Moses are moving forward and going in here
And so what native and Abihu do and I'd like to connect this back to Genesis 1 which I think Rabbi David
Forman does a great job of doing they go and they take for themselves in order to become part of God's move
Yeah, they are not okay with their position
And so they go and try to usurp the position of their father because their father and Moses have been called in
And they are going in and actually trying to be there
Foreman actually makes a statement and some of you are gonna be uncomfortable with it and that's okay
But he makes a statement that when you take your sensor you have fire in it and you add incense it creates what?
smoke smoke
Which is a cloud like substance. Mm-hmm and they are going where?
Into the tabernacle where God's presence is manifesting as what a cloud?
So they're bringing their cloud
Into God's cloud which sounds a lot like Genesis 3
When you will become like God knowing both good and evil and you're now trying to step into what God is
Yeah for your own authority. Yeah, and it's interesting that they are struck dead
But they're still clothed and they are carried out of the presence. They're carried outside of the tabernacle
And they're buried there. There's a lot of parallels between Genesis 3 and what's going on here
And people are really uncomfortable with this, but there are some really key takeaways that I think are really helpful in this story
God is setting up an authority of who's going to show the entire nation how to be a priest
Yeah, he's setting this up and he's like we will not mess this up
It is not for your personal gain is not for your personal authority
And so we are gonna make it very clear what's happening here
So that moving forward you understand your role as both priest and as nation of priests
Is to actually represent God to the nations
And immediately following this story you have a
Instruction for priestly conduct, right?
And so you have them the Lord speaking to Aaron saying giving these lists of instructions of what priestly conduct looks like
Right? So one of the takeaways I think we can take as believers is what does this story actually teach us?
Is that don't try to usurp the authority that God's put in somebody else's life
You see the thing about native in a by who is their dad was not going to live forever
One of them was going to be high priest at some point and be the one who goes into the tent to meeting
Yeah, but for them and I don't want to read too much in their motives
So understand that I'm reading into the intent here
But for them they went into the tent to meet the priest
They went in their motives. So understand that I'm reading into the intent here, but for them they went and took to get what they wanted
Rather than serving where God put them
Now some applications I think are really important is paul talks about the body of christ and it says
The foot can't just be like, hey, I'm tired of being a foot. I want to be an eye
Well, you're still a foot
And the foot is very important and no matter how much you want to be an eye. You're still a foot
And you have to be okay with where God has you because there's a function and he is God and we are not
Yep, sometimes I think people they they say well, I want this and I want this and I was like listen
It's okay to ask God for anything. Mm-hmm, but you also got to be okay with God saying no. Mm-hmm and
The if you're not okay with God saying no, I got news for you. He is not your Lord
I'm just gonna preface this this is gonna sound weird but go with me on it
Yeah, I'm like already seeing Picasso stuff going on here. Yeah. Now say you took the liberty said I'm gonna start rearranging where body parts go
Hmm. So, okay. Well, I'm a foot but I want to be a hand
So I'm gonna what that actually would be is that would be the equivalent of you taking your foot and moving it to where your hand is
Now what good is your foot gonna do in the location of your hand?
Nothing, you might say it's gonna stink
It's the yeah, it's like not gonna do nothing or if you're like, well, I'm a hand and I want to be a foot
Yeah, what good is your hand gonna do in the location of your foot?
Exactly, right. So the so the other thing that I think is really important to note from this story
It doesn't say that God is mad at Nate Eben Abihu. We think he is because we assume that God is mad with us
Yeah, but it doesn't say the anger the Lord reached out and struck down Nate Eben Abihu. Mm-hmm
God takes a look and he says nope. Come home. Mm-hmm, right?
He he just removes them from the equation. It says and we look at life as it
But we know that eternal life is meant to be spent with God
It's a it's a qualitative existence. Yeah, but it's also an internal existence
Mm-hmm, right and so being removed from this life to go spend time with God in eternity because we're not putting the right story on display
Is not necessarily a position of anger. It can be a position of love
Yeah, right and and I'm gonna remind you also one more time that this is not the only time something like this happens in the Bible
Think about in Acts. They've received the Holy Spirit
God has moved and they there's 3,000 people have been added. They're having regular fellowship
And then the Hellenistic Jews feel like they're being shorted
So they appoint people like above them and everybody's bringing stuff to take care of everybody
They're selling their stuff and bringing it to the Apostles feet and offering it completely and then there's these people they're Ananias and Sapphira
Mm-hmm, right who have a piece of property. It belongs completely to them
Now this early church in Jesus Christ is being associated with the Holy Spirit
Christ is being associated with compassion giving feeding
Fellowship moving in the spirit taking care of widows and orphans. This is who they are preaching the gospel and teaching right?
living as a result of the risen Lord and
so
Ananias and Sapphira they sell this piece of property and they decide that they're going to give it for the community, which is a great thing
right
But they decide that they're going to misrepresent what they do. We got this amount, but we're gonna hold some back for ourselves
Now is there anything that precluded them from holding a portion for themselves? No, no
And yet they felt that they should go and lie
At the beginning of this movement that God is doing this new priesthood that he's starting they're going to go and lie
about what they're doing to look generous to be well thought of to maybe enhance their status and
Ananias dies and it doesn't say that God's mad with him doesn't say that God's angry
Just says that you can't lie to God about what like the generosity of your heart and Sapphira comes in and does the exact same thing
We read that story. We're like, oh God was mad doesn't say that God was mad
I don't think the implication has got his mad, but he's not gonna let you compromise his kingdom of priests
Mm-hmm. He's gonna put his story on display
Yeah, and if he has to take you home so that you don't mess up the story, he's gonna do it now
Have you ever been out with your daughter and?
She pushes the I'm done button. Oh, yeah
Yeah, and you know
That there is nothing that can happen
That will fix this problem. Yeah at this point you don't like you don't wheel and deal you pick your daughter up
You walk out you put her in the car seat. Mm-hmm. You drive her home and you have her take a nap. Yep
For those of you who don't know my daughter
She is a wonderful strong willed stubborn kid who once she gets her mindset on something good luck changing it
I love a strong willed children and people are like, oh, you don't even know I've got strong willed children
Mm-hmm. I was like the reason I like strong willed children is they won't let the world change them. They're gonna change the world. Yeah, but
Sometimes the done button gets pushed. Oh, yeah, and there is no amount of conversation that can happen
That I'm gonna leave my child in that situation. Well, and when that done button gets pushed
That's when my daughter realizes. Oh, this is where I get my strong willed nature from
And so like the thing is like me as a father now obviously we're talking about life and death versus me taking my kids home, right?
But if you don't view life in terms of the finite existence, we have between 0 and 80. Yeah, right
But rather you look at it as an eternal place where we're actually doing with God
It may just be time to take you home. Yeah
Because I don't want you to mess up who you are what you're gonna become. Yeah
Now if you have struggles with that story in general go keep studying. Yeah, because that's that's just a piece
So I think I think we got time for maybe one or two more short ones. Yeah, I love the softball questions by the way guys
All right. Here's a good one for you Spencer. I'm gonna let you answer this one
What do we lose as Christians in the Western culture and Protestant perspective?
When we fail to see that the story is good from the very beginning we start in Genesis 3 as opposed to Genesis 1
Oh, we lose our value. Yeah, I mean, sorry
I was pretty quick to jump on that but we we lose what our value actually is who our values actually
What who were actually created to be we were created to be in relationship and fellowship with God
And so when we start the story in Genesis 3 the problem is is what we have is we have God's taking pity on us
Right and that's that's the narrative we then go with when the reality is God. I mean
He's not taking pity on us. He loves us and he's wanting to restore our relationship with him
So when we start in Genesis 3 what we do is we actually paint our value as garbage
When God's actually seen our value as intrinsically like nope, you can't put a price on it
And so that's why we have to start back in Genesis 1 where where the story is good
Where is very good where we are in fellowship with God because what it does is it paints this picture of where we're supposed to be
Versus when we start in Genesis 3 we get this. Oh, whoa is me. I'm a horrible human being
And wow, I'm so glad this God took pity on me
Which is not the gospel narrative
Yeah, it's not it's not the narrative through Torah either. No, it's not like we just talked about Leviticus
What happens when you interpret Leviticus through Genesis 3?
Then you are all messed up follow these rules or die, right?
And it's like here's some restrictive rules and are meant to like keep you in line
Whereas Genesis 1 it says
I know what your nature is and i'm going to give you guidelines that are going to bring that out
Yeah, what your nature is supposed to be I should say because it's no longer is because it's been broken
And so and as parents we see this in our kids, right?
Like my daughter can be a not-faced brat sometimes
We're talking about our kids. Yeah. Yeah, his daughter is pretty cool. My daughter. I like let's just take that like make sure you guys know
Yeah, but if I'm not sure
If my wife or my daughter is not feeling well
She is right there. Like what can I do to help you? Do you need snuggles? Can I get you water here?
Let me get you a blanket
Let me do all these things to make you feel better very little of what she does actually makes us feel better
but
Like we're gonna foster that because she's like I care about you and I see where you're at and i'm gonna come alongside you
Like that is you know, I'm gonna come alongside you
And i'm gonna come alongside you like that is huge, right?
What god does is he does the same thing where he sees us
He sees us in our brokenness in our sickness in our pain in our sinful in our sin and he says hey
This is not who you're designed to be. You're not designed to be sick. You're designed to be well
The exact reason why jesus actually says I didn't come for the healthy. I came for the sick
Right, you don't send a doctor to healthy people. You send a doctor to help six people sick people out
So we have to understand we are good
We are very good. We are designed to be good at the core. Our nature is actually good
Mm-hmm. It's just fallen. Yeah, and good news
Is that jesus has already taken care of that?
Yeah, so and just add a little context what you just said we were created originally very good
And we corrupted that nature. Yes, and jesus is the door that leads us back to an uncorrupted nature
Yes, and just one little caveat on that that just because I feel like this can get missed sometimes
Is the design of humanity hasn't changed?
Correct because i've heard it interpreted that the design of humanity fundamentally changed when the fall happened
I don't actually believe that we could have a more in-depth conversation
I think the design of humanity has been the same. I don't think god's changed that I think we've had
I think we took upon ourselves to say we're better than god and god has shown us over and over again that that doesn't work
Well, and and and with that idea, um, I think people there i've very frequently hear, uh different teachers
And they're all over the spectrum from conservative to uh, charismatic, uh pentacostal all over perspectives
Talk about how uh, you know god in the new testament is about redemption and reconciliation
But god of the old testament was fire and brimstone. I was like, I I feel like maybe you didn't read the old testament very well
Mm-hmm. I was like or you didn't understand what jesus said when he said i'm the perfect representation of the father
Like I represent the father perfectly
So if you think jesus was fire and brimstone, then maybe you could see the father in the old testament as fire and brimstone
But if you see the nature of jesus as it was somebody who was willing to get down on the ground
And work with people who took who at the height of his power was willing to put on the servant's cloak and wash feet
Mm-hmm like this guy right who didn't also mind confronting people in their misunderstanding of torah and how they treated other people
Mm-hmm, right didn't mind having a extended dialogue didn't mind confronting people directly in their garbage. Yeah
but
This is who god has always been and so I think when we say well jesus came to change everything
I was like no jesus came to fulfill what god was always doing. Mm-hmm
right what he was doing through the people of israel and jesus as a
jewish messiah
Fulfills what god was always doing in israel. Yeah
We have to understand that portion of the story, right? Yeah
All right. We're gonna close with a very low ball. So you're welcome. Okay. I saw this one
This one came up a couple of times. Yeah, okay
What about siris timothy too?
Okay. Oh, yeah
Yeah, you guys you're gonna love this. Yeah, you're gonna love this. All right
And so some of the some of you are wondering you're like, okay. What are you talking about? Okay, so first timothy too
They're specifically referencing verse 11. It says a woman should learn in quietness and full submission
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man
She must be quiet for adam was formed first then eve and adam was not the one deceived
It was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner
But woman will be saved through childbearing if she is not the one who was deceived
But woman will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith love holiness with propriety. All right, we have to talk context. Yeah
We have to talk context. All right. So timothy was in ethesus. Yep
Okay
The temple of aphrodite was located or one of the prominent temples of aphrodite was located in ethesus
and so what you actually had happening in the church of ethesus at the time is you had
priestess from the temple of aphrodite coming to know jesus and then they were trying to
Take their role as priestess and establish that in the church. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they had no idea what they were talking about
And so you have to understand that that's what they were either doing that or
They were trying to usurp the authority of what god had actually brought in as teachers because they were women. Yes
and so ethesus was actually a
weird cultural place where you had these priests of aphrodite and they
Actually held a lot of power and they would often usurp or abuse authority in general. Mm-hmm
And so here you have paul actually saying hey don't do that in the church. Mm-hmm and the word that actually
It's really really interesting. But the word that is actually used there for authority in that passage
Is um, it's not used anywhere else in the new testament paul uses it one time
Yeah in here in here. This is the one time paul uses that word and it's to usurp or undermine or abuse
Authority like that's kind of the concept behind it and if you're wondering by the way, how do we know that?
It's because you look at other texts written during that time that use that word
Yeah, and that was the one time paul used that word. So you got to understand that too. And so here what's actually happening is
First Timothy 2 and first timothy 3. I think they're
I don't argue translation issues a lot, but I think there are some issues that need to be addressed there, but
Here you have paul saying don't abuse
Authority don't undermine authority. Don't let women don't let the women do this because that was what the culture promoted at the time
Second thing you need to note on this is when you're reading the timothy letters in particular
You are reading one side of a phone conversation
Timothy is having some sort of dialogue with paul and paul is actually answering a lot of timothy's questions
The problem is is we don't know timothy's questions, correct?
So what we do is we'll take these books and we'll be like this is the gospel truth
And i'll be like actually there's a lot of gray areas right here that we need to
Look at because we don't actually know what timothy was writing about
We can make some assumptions based on cultural statements, right? And and the other thing i would add to this
Is the verses prior in first timothy 2 talks about men standing up
Worshipping with raised hands
So you have you have a two-way street here. You have you have something that's suppressing men's ability a man's ability to actually engage in worship
And so and we don't fully know what that is because timothy is specifically writing to paul again
But something suppressing man's thing and as part of that paul is saying women
Tone it down a little bit. Yeah
Yeah, so I was just thinking of it from my own background coming from a baptist
And pentecostal background if we put them in the same room, i'm looking at the pentecostal said hey
Why don't you calm down a little bit and baptist you need to move a little?
right, right and
As like now neither one of the expressions is wrong. They're just not necessarily helpful for unity
Yeah, so uh, once again, we're gonna throw in bt roberts ordaining women. He actually does a pretty good section on that and
So I want to talk specifically
Three things that you need to focus on with this one
Is that look at paul himself? Mm-hmm paul was frequently promoting and working with women
In his ministry all throughout his letters phoebe roman 16 one priscilla and aquila, right?
Priscilla being named first is a big deal lydia in philippi, right?
And side note the letter that was written to the philippians was the only writer letter that did not have direct
Correction. Mm-hmm. And and for all intents and purposes
Seems like it was led by women. Yep. Yeah, just for what that's worth
Um, so that you have to look into the character of like what does paul actually do and like frequently in his scriptures?
He's gonna say there's neither junior or gentile slave nor free male nor female
So he's trying to get away from these in justification of faith and serving also in the book of corinthians
He's gonna talk about women and men prophesying. Well prophesying in in it would be very equivalent to how we would preach the word
I love that
When people pull first corinthians out and they're like, they're like, well, it also says here that women can't preach
I was like no he actually says they can he just gives instructions for how to do it. Yeah, exactly
So the implication would be that it's just like if you're there's instructions for women on how to prophesy
The implication would be that they are prophesying. Yeah, and a good book on this is paul through mediterranean eyes by kenneth bailey
I love me some kenneth bailey. He's just good man
And so but then the second thing we want to look at here. Okay, so this word for assume authority is to usurp or abuse authority
So what paul is instructing timothy is don't let women strictly because of their gender
Supercede who god has placed in authority
Simply because their gender is different than the person in authority
Right now what's the problem with that is because now what we've used this verse where we've used this verse
What's the problem with that is because now what we've used this verse where paul's saying don't do this
We actually use this verse to do the exact same thing the other way where god has actually placed authority on a woman
To preach and teach and we say well because of your gender
You are disqualified from being able to do this guys. We're the opposite of ethos
And that's wrong, too
Yeah
I've made this argument a few times and i've had somebody say well the verses right after that say
Well, it wasn't adam that send but eve first
And then so and then they and then they do this but adam was made first
Um adam was made first and then eve. Well, yes, you are correct. Also it was man and women
They were made in the image of god, right both man and woman
Were made in the image of god
Like there's that completion aspect
This is a this is a ben theology
So just accept that like if you disagree, i'm totally fine with that
We still love you, but it does say that the woman bit and she gave some to her husband and he ate
and then
Their eyes were opened
Yeah, so she didn't eat and her eyes were opened and then he ate and his eyes were opened she ate
And then he ate and then their eyes were opened. I don't think it's an accident. God said it that way. No
It's almost like he could see in the future where we're going to have debates about whether or not people were qualified that he put an authority
Mm-hmm
If you were actually like legitimately trying to follow god and not just trying to assume your own authority
We want to have tons of grace with you as you struggle with this
Yeah
And if you disagree with us and you and your wife are like trying to follow this model
We are fine with you disagreeing with us and trying to serve god to your utmost
Yeah, this is a ben through this. He's like, yeah, it's a softball question. He knows I get fired up on this topic
There's two two things that also have to be two other things
I think just have to be addressed on this is one when you're talking about leadership in the church
You need to know what the definition of a church leader or pastor is
So what defines a church and what defines their leader?
Right, right
So if you're talking like an americanized context in your life
Well senior pastor at a church who's on payroll?
Foreign concept to israel foreign concept to israel foreign concept to most the world. Yeah when it comes to churches
Honestly, any of our pastoral roles are completely foreign concepts to the middle eastern church. Yeah
Yeah, so that that's one thing and then the other thing you need to define is what is preaching?
Can we be real like if we're saying well women shouldn't preach well
What what do you consider preaching?
What do you consider preaching is is there a set number of people that have to be in the room for it to be considered?
Preaching or if they are sharing the gospel with one person in the grocery store and they're preaching to them
Are they not allowed to do that?
Right
Like you need to you need to define these things
Yeah
We actually will probably do a full episode on women in ministry
Just because I think it's a it's important concept and and I want to stress our
Our desire is going to be to talk about our perspective and how we understand the bible in context and how god is enabling people
To live into this and not suppressing what god is doing in somebody else's life
Yeah, right now one of the things I do think is really important to note
Oh, by the way on that episode, we're hopefully going to get one of the pastors in town who we dearly love
To come on the podcast with us
Like we give her a really hard time because we we enjoy her so much
we really want her to come on and be able to have a conversation about that because
She has been doing some really good work for the kingdom and has received a ton of heat for it
Mm-hmm. The thing is if you could see the fruit of what's coming from her ministry
You'd have a real hard time saying that she doesn't belong there. Yeah
You know, yeah
But we want to we want to make sure that we're having this conversation like we're not trying to tell you what to believe
We want you to think critically about why do you believe this?
Yes, right. I don't think that having a belief is is bad
But why do you have it and how does it function in the narrative as a whole? Yeah. Yeah
All right. I think that's the end of our softball questions because otherwise we're gonna have this like hour and a half episode, right?
Hopefully we're just giving you a starting point that you actually go look deeper
Hopefully we didn't offend anybody in this conversation. That's not our intention
It's okay to disagree with us
In fact, if you disagree with us, please send us an email because we might talk about it in the next q a
And if we truly are wrong on something, we will correct ourselves, correct?
Correct. So all right. Well, thank you guys so much. Check us out at love and contacts at gmail.com
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Yeah, or I mean if somebody that you think might get irate at this conversation share with them too. I'm fine with that
We're good with that. Yeah. All right. Love you guys. Take care
That's a wrap for today's episode
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Welcome
Just welcome
Welcome
And then 35 minutes of silence
Hopefully y'all know what you're listening to at this point. I don't actually have anything to follow it up with like
I think you made coffee at the right point because we're starting to go lose it so good
I have nothing to add. You have nothing to add to that
But oh man, that's so funny