Welcome to Between Two Chairs,
demystifying commercial real estate,
the podcast that brings you the latest insights and
trends on the South Florida commercial real estate market.
With your hosts, Fernando Adonisibia Jr. and Jennifer Wallman.
In each episode, we dive into the world of
commercial real estate and break down
complex concepts to make them accessible for everyone.
Whether you're a real estate professional,
a curious investor, or just interested in
the South Florida market in general,
Between Two Chairs is the podcast for you.
So pull up a chair and join us.
Welcome everybody to another episode of Between Two Chairs.
My name is Fernando Adonisibia Jr.
Thank you as always for joining us.
And with me is the ever effervescent and energetic.
And courageous.
Overall amazing.
And courageous.
Yes, Jennifer Wallman.
Hi Jennifer, say hi.
Hello, hi.
I didn't follow instructions, hi.
So you mentioned courage.
Yes.
And we have done this really interesting thing
since we started the podcast,
which is we have this kindergarten reading series.
And I want to invite all the boys and girls who are listening,
all the humans from around the world,
pull up a chair and listen as we discuss a book
written by Susan Verdi called I Am Courage.
A book of resilience.
Perfect timing, Jennifer.
A book of resilience.
I like that we've been doing this and I like
out of left field ideas that are connected
because I think so many things in life are interconnected.
And I think it's great that we get to dive
into some of these things.
And a lot of it for you guys that are listening
is grows out of this idea that everything
that I ever needed to know, I learned in kindergarten.
And so Jennifer and I are big believers in that.
And because she is an amazing grandmother,
I know that she is totally engulfed in the world
of kids books at this stage.
I think it's wonderful.
So how do we go about this?
So confession, the reason I have these books
is not because I'm a grandma.
Really?
It's because I believe in simple messaging
and keep it simple, stupid.
And this keeps my attention.
And so I find real estate applicable
in just about every children's book.
And this is a lot easier reading than some
of the big, heavy books.
So yeah.
I wish I could say it was because of my grandkids.
But what you really didn't have to tell anybody.
We would have just assumed.
You didn't have to disclose that you're walking in a bookstore.
Let's say we're back in 1990 and you're actually
buying it from a bookstore.
But you probably are.
I did.
Yeah, exactly.
You're walking in a bookstore.
Books and books.
I love books and books.
That's so great.
All right.
So let's dive into the book.
Do you want to read it?
How do you want to go through it?
So we've spent all month talking about how
to get rid of scary.
Right?
It's October, scary month.
We do these podcasts, these episodes all the time.
And so sometimes we try to stick with the theme.
Usually we don't.
But this month it's kind of been scary from busting
real estate myths to talking to attorneys,
to trying to avoid scary issues that might come up
during a transaction.
And the reason I thought of this book
is because we always talk about fear
and how fear holds us back and fear cells.
And I think we mentioned in our C5 CCIM episode
when we were doing a recap that we're addicted to fear.
That was Gunnar Branson who said, we're addicted to fear.
We know that fear cells and everything else.
So I thought instead of talking about fear,
let's talk how to address fear.
And so I find strong messages in children's stories.
And the message on the front of this flap
just really, really resonated with me.
So I'm going to read it to you.
It says, when we picture someone brave,
we might think they're fearless.
But real courage comes from feeling scared and facing
what challenges us anyway.
When our minds tell us I can't, we
can look inside ourselves and find the strength to say,
yes, I can.
And to me, this resonated so much because I've
told this story before.
But when I first wanted to get into investing,
I had already been involved in real estate
for, I want to say, about 10 years.
And I can't remember if I was already an LP in the syndication
deal.
I don't think I was.
I think my husband and I were trying to do this on our own.
And God bless my husband, Carlos.
He's always supportive.
And he's way more fearless than I am.
And I let fear get the better of me.
I imagined us living under I-95 and me bankrupting us.
And I was like, it was ridiculous.
There was no rational explanation for what I was doing.
And I got out of a house that we had bought
at the height of the recession in Coral Gables.
Beautiful area.
We got it for, we were under contract for $250, I think,
maybe $240.
I probably could have gotten it for about $210
after inspections because it showed some pretty big things.
I mean, there were subterranean termites, which
are scary in and of themselves.
So I lost that deal.
And I was getting ready to lose another deal when I finally
did the phone a friend.
And this book, just in very simple ways,
tells us how to dig deep and find the courage
to get through that.
And this year has been a super challenging year
for a lot of people, period, whether it's in real estate
or not, whether it's the economy, high interest rates,
the geopolitical landscapes, the horrible weather.
We've had fires, floods, hurricanes, and all of those
things, and the uncertainty cause uncertainty, fear,
and desperation.
And there was another book that we did this on, which
was, oh, the places you'll go.
And they talk about the waiting room.
And I think a lot of people get stuck in the waiting room
because of fear.
And how do you get unstuck?
How do you find the courage to get out?
So this book talks about digging deep into your courage,
trusting your gut, accepting the challenge,
and finding the strength to go on.
We wear so many hats in our day-to-day life
and in our professional life as well.
And a lot of times when we're processing information,
you and I, I mean, we're thinking about, obviously,
our families, the people that we know,
the people that we care about, our friends, our colleagues.
We also always are thinking about the consumer,
and we're thinking also about the broker,
and helping the broker help the consumer,
and so I'm always trying to draw lessons from something
as simple as this.
And if I may read just a couple of the sections, right?
It's really at the start of the book,
but it'll lead to a question that I have for you.
This is the beginning of the book.
When there are challenges in front of me,
when I feel unstable, like I might fall,
and I think about turning back or giving up,
when my mind tells me I can't, I look inside myself
and find the strength that lives deep down,
and I tell my mind, yes, I can.
I have faith in what's possible.
I accept the challenge and keep on going.
And this is where it's the first thing,
because where do people draw the faith in what's possible?
It's such an optimistic phraseology, right?
I have faith in what's possible.
I accept the challenge and keep on going.
And of course, there's an illustration of this child
who is in a bike about to cross a bridge,
but we don't know where that bridge leads to, right?
And it's dark.
And it's dark and it is scary,
but I wanted to ask you that,
where do people really find the faith in what's possible?
Because oftentimes, as you mentioned,
fear is predominant in our daily lives, right?
So it really is as simple as it is stated,
it is a deep question about having faith in what's possible.
Well, and I think finding that faith
takes different forms.
There was a game show, I can't remember what it was,
but they would throw out lifelines,
like if you didn't know the question.
It was phone a friend, I can't remember what,
I can't remember what.
So guess what my faith is and how I find it.
You're talking about the millionaire.
I have no idea, I just remember,
I mean, I didn't watch the show.
Jessica, what was that show?
Who wants to be a millionaire?
Yeah, and what were the three things?
Oh, it was 50-50, so they will take 50%
of the questions out.
It was ask the audience.
Okay, and phone a friend.
Well, I remembered phone a friend.
So that's how I dig deep.
Like in the situation that I told you about the house
when I was getting ready to pull out of our second investment,
and I was kicking myself, because I knew.
My brain knew what was going on.
My brain knew that I had done the research,
that it was a great buy, that it was a great location.
I'd done everything right,
but, and my gut was telling me it was good,
and my brain was like, run away, run away,
you're gonna bankrupt your family.
And so, I trusted in my gut,
but I knew that I needed help getting out of my brain,
and I phoned a friend who had the money to bail me out
so that I wouldn't live under I-95,
even though that was never a possibility,
because I was only gonna be on the hook
for the down payment.
Like it was so ridiculous, and so I phoned a friend,
and I think that's what's so great about,
so wherever you find faith, it can be in your church,
it can be in your family, it can be in your friends,
it could be in people you know in the industry,
and that's why I love this women in real estate group
that Beth created, because the theory
and the philosophy there, and it was actually based
on a conversation that she and I had about fear,
because Beth had a similar experience
when she was starting her investment,
her own personal investments,
even though she had been in the industry
and been killing it as a landlord and tenant rep
for a gazillion years and knew the markets,
and the fear got in, and she lost a deal.
So we were talking about that,
and so like in this case, she created this event
for women who want to invest, but have fear
to have the support group that they need
to get beyond that and to help build courage,
so I don't know if that answered your question,
how about you?
You know what I find really interesting here
is that faith in what's possible,
it's I think something that permeates
through every entrepreneur.
You start on a journey having faith in the possibility.
The phraseology here is incredibly smart,
because it's not I have faith
that everything is gonna be okay.
It's not I have faith that we'll figure it out.
It's having faith in that there is a possibility out there
that draws us to cross that bridge in the dark, right?
And the following sentence,
I accept the challenge and keep on going,
and it's that idea of you have faith
in the good things that you can create
and the possibilities of this endeavor, right?
But you have no guarantee,
and we both live in the fact that we predominantly
focus on the fear and the negativity
and not only what gets fed at us,
but the things that we worry about,
but at the same time,
there's something that gets you up every morning to say,
I'm going to go attack that.
I have no idea how it's gonna work out,
but I love this sentence of I accept the challenge, right?
And so, you know, like you mentioned at the beginning,
and this is something that everyone has heard,
courage is not the absence of fear
is what you do in spite of it, right?
And so, I love that idea of I'm just gonna keep going.
And we've seen and we've done shows,
podcast episodes where we've discussed this, you know,
sometimes all you gotta do is just keep going,
keep working, and all of a sudden,
things begin to turn around,
whether it's in your business, in your personal life,
in your career, and the choices that you make
have to be informed, I think,
by having that faith in the possible.
I agree, and look at what we did, right?
Look at the big jump that we took,
like two, almost, well, a year and a half ago,
and left what we were doing, changed it up,
and it was because of what's possible, right?
We were scared, we were nervous, we were unsure,
we don't know exactly what the outcome's gonna look like,
but we believed in the possibility of what could be,
so we took that jump, right?
And, you know, again, we've stated before,
you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable,
and I think courage also gives you that, and so...
Another lesson that I thought was really interesting is,
as you read the story, there's a sentence,
and this is something that I think it's important,
is I can trust what my gut is telling me.
Now, there's so many ways to break this down,
because it's interesting,
how do you know if your gut has the right instinct?
You know, like what you instinctively feel,
like my gut is telling me this is gonna be good,
or this is gonna be bad,
but there is an evolution in which you have
to trust your gut, and when I read this,
what I thought about was, oftentimes,
especially when people enter a new industry,
or let's say there's a new agent
that is coming in right to the industry,
it's very simple to begin to look at the process,
to be bigger than what it is,
meaning that, obviously, every industry has their own jargon,
they have their own procedures,
they have their own laws that they have to follow,
their regulations, all those things.
Sometimes we overcomplicate that situation,
and at the end of the day, the agent is always working
with another human being, right?
And when you're working with a client and a human being,
there are certain things that you viscerally feel
in your gut, this doesn't feel right,
and then some of those agents will come back to us
and say, well, what does the law say?
How do I handle this, and how do I address this?
And I think that you begin to kind of give way
of relying on your gut, I think that that part
should never be removed.
You could call it gut, you could call it common sense,
you could call it a spidey sense, your instinct,
whatever it is, but there is something there
that I think you have to endeavor to develop
and to continue to test so that you can continue to trust it.
I agree, and I always tell my kids
that when they're not sure, I'm like, look, write it down,
write down everything that's in your brain
because there's two parts of fear
and there's two parts of courage, right?
To me, there's gut or heart and head,
and head is where the crazy is, right?
The brain is crazy, it's a wild horse,
It's crazy, it's a wild horse, they have that saying in Spanish,
they have that saying in Spanish,
it's crazy, it's crazy.
Is this fear real or am I making it up?
I'm writing this down.
Is this fear real or am I making it up?
What am I really afraid of?
And because if you're honest with yourself half the time, or I don't know if it's half
the time or whatever I haven't done the math because that's cerebral, you're afraid of
succeeding or you're afraid of failure.
And so then if you look at either your success or your failure in a different way, that might
be all you need to get through it.
Another one, another question I ask is if I don't do this, how am I going to feel?
And again, it could be I'm going to feel great because what a relief, it's off my shoulders,
you know, I'm like, it didn't feel good, or it's going to be like I'm going to feel horrible,
I'm going to feel like I lost an opportunity.
And then those leave, but those are my three, you know me three, three is about all I can
handle.
Those are my three main questions.
And then depending on how my gut reaction, you have to be really in tune to your gut
reaction.
How does it?
Jessica, I need you to block out one hour on my schedule this afternoon.
I got to ask myself three important questions later on.
Jessica says just an hour.
Well, that's wonderful.
I appreciate that because, you know, sometimes, you know, it's easy to just to say, well,
you could go with your gut, but it's like the quieting of the mind and it really, you're
right that, you know, the heart, the mind, sometimes they're not all in concert.
And so, you know, it's really interesting.
You know, I thought that was great.
Thank you.
Those are three great questions and I will be using it.
He really did write them down.
I did guys, I did.
The other thing, and you kind of alluded to it already, but I thought was a third big
lesson in the story is I can lean on those around me.
I am not afraid to ask for support.
And that I thought was incredibly powerful as well because, you know, oftentimes when
we have this discussion about our business, we say it's impossible for you to know everything
about everything.
And when you're in commercial real estate, because you have multiple asset classes, there's
so many ways to become a hyper, hyper expert on every little thing.
You know, we just did a podcast where I mentioned in the C5 conference about this logistics expert
and, you know, how drilled down that information is, which is infinitely interesting, but the
reality is that unless that's all you're going to focus on, you will never develop that exact
expertise.
But when your clients come to you, they come to you because they need, you know, because,
you know, they trust you, right?
They want your guidance.
And so, it's more important not to be the person that knows everything because that's
not possible than to be the one who knows where to go for the right answers.
Right.
And so I think support, and I know in the case of the book, they're talking about supporting
you and being courageous, right?
But I think support is incredibly impactful.
It's, I know the story and you've told the story before about that investment that you
made.
And I know that you may not have needed it from a logical perspective that, okay, I know
I really need this or you didn't need for that person to sign a contract or for to give
you this guarantee or to put...
He didn't even know what my question was.
You didn't even know what you were asking, correct?
You just ask him, you know, will you ever, will you take care of him?
Will you be there for me if I screw up?
Correct.
And just that...
That by itself created that.
And then everything that you mentioned about Beth and what she has created has been a support
group in every, in every, in every instance, whether it's the independent retailer awards,
you know, where now all these independent retailers are getting to know each other,
they support each other.
She brings in all of the brokerage community or it is the book club or it is the investment,
the women investment, you know, conference.
I think all of those things are that layer of support where we've had the honor of being
on stage in different things.
Like I've always felt that I'm not alone because the support has been there from, from the
beginning.
So I think that that is a great lesson in the book is that you don't have to be courageous
by yourself.
Because that courage is fed by the people that you have surrounding you, which is why
it's important to choose the right people, right?
Agreed.
And at the end of the book, the author's note states, she does, you know, author's note
and she teaches breathing and yoga poses, etc.
But it says, although what scares us may be different, fear is something we all feel and
we don't need to hide it.
It's okay to talk about fear.
This is my favorite part.
Fear is a place for opportunity and growth.
So as anybody listening starts planning for 2025.
So it's like the obstacles the way.
Exactly.
It's all the same things that we have discussed.
Exactly.
And so as you start planning for 2025, think about what you're scared of, how much further
you could grow in 2025 if you face that fear.
Come up with a plan, including who your support group's going to be to help get you through
or over your fear because right now, and this is, I'm taking this quote directly from Spencer
Levy, who we spoke about in a previous episode regarding his presentation with Gunnar at
C5.
And he said, right now, if you have the courage, there is an intergenerational shift in what
wealth and tons of opportunity in real estate before capital markets come back.
And if we're afraid that there is no capital, that there is no this blah, blah, blah, blah,
we're going to miss that opportunity.
So I didn't even know there was a whole yoga.
How to add the head of the book.
Have you done these the fear post, the fierce post?
Yes, I call it cheer post, but yes, the fierce post.
What do you call it?
Cheer post.
Also known as cheer post.
And warrior three post.
Yes, I do warrior three, one and two.
How about lion's breath?
Yes.
Oof.
As long as I don't have to.
Yeah.
I was going to say, as long as it's not what it smells like.
It is exactly what it sounds like.
And you get a room full of 25 people doing that.
Oh my goodness.
But I agree.
I think that, I think we've always, we've always said it, it's in times of uncertainty
that you have the most opportunity.
We've seen that play out in so many different ways.
You know, and if you, if you, if you study the economic history of the United States,
you will, you will find that, you know, most generational wealth is built during times of
uncertainty and that's where the opportunity lies.
I thought there was a fourth, you know, main theme or lesson in the book.
And there are many.
And of course, as is, as it is with books, which is why we love reading, it means different
things to different people, right?
Because reading is a very interactive journey, right?
Because the person reading becomes part of the story, right?
And becomes part of the interpretation.
But in there's a sentence that says, when I feel uncertain and start to lose my balance,
I find my center and gather my strength.
And that's another really interesting component.
And I think that we like the rule of threes and I love all your three questions.
And I think part of this is a part of the three questions that you mentioned is really
about that is about finding your center, you know, because I'm about to be 50 in December.
And I was contemplating how, how different life is than it was when I was a child, right?
And, and I was thinking like we, I feel that because of all the technological advancement,
especially in communications, the internet, the interconnectivity that there has been
great opportunity, but there's also been, it's almost dizzying the amount of information
that we have to consume, you know?
And I find that for anybody entering any industry that you can, you have access to so much information
that sometimes it's difficult to find your center and say, what's valuable, what's not
valuable, how do I interpret this, how do I, you know, what, what is going to actually
bring me value and what is going to be a total distraction.
The info is really noise, right?
And if you think about our crazy brains, that's just noise.
It's all the information, our brains trying to process information.
So I think to your point, that's where tech has really sped that up.
We have access to more data faster than we've ever had, right?
And it's getting exponentially more so, which means our brains are going to be even more
like, yeah, because you, you, you can stray from your center, right?
And I think that that, that is a really interesting dynamic.
What are the things that are pulling you closer to, to your authentic self?
And what are the things that are pulling you away?
And it creating this phrase.
So there are little nuggets in this short book, right?
It's also beautifully illustrated.
They did a nice job, but there are always these little nuggets of information.
I love that we're discussing this partly because there is, and I'm finding it more and more
valuable, but I was in a conference and someone talked to me about a book called the brevity.
I think that there is something to that.
It is, if you cannot convey your ideas in a very simple, direct way, then they either
have to be workshop more, right?
Or you're, you're missing the point.
And I think that the brevity of the story, but the ramifications or the, the potentiality
of the ideas are very powerful.
Well, the brevity of the story didn't take away from the strength of the message.
Well, it also allowed us to become part of the story, right?
Cause we had our own, our own experiences and our own perspective.
And I, and I really, I really do enjoy that.
And I'm seeing that, you know, like today I was looking at a post in LinkedIn and it
was super long.
And I was like, wow, this is, and then I was looking at something and it was just two sentences
and it was much more impactful.
I digress a bit, but I do, I do think that it is a great time to, to speak about courage.
And I love that the title of the book is not courage, but it is I am courage, you know,
as if it is an adjective and attitude.
You know, listen, I don't want to go to books and books while you're shopping for kids books,
but I really appreciate that you do that in your spare time.
I love it.
I love books and books.
I have to be careful cause talk about going down a rabbit hole in a bookstore.
Exactly.
So do you have a fun fact?
I, I, I, uh, no.
That means no.
Okay.
So I'll do one.
It's a little bit long, but bear with me.
So according to MSCI Inc, a company that provides research based data and tools to financial
institutions, data through July showed how rough the national commercial real estate market
has been with transactions down from 5% from 203.8 billion.
And I throw out that number because there are signs that we are near rock bottom of
the cycle.
And it's finally funny during the great recession, my brother who does a lot of stock investing
on his own.
He's like, you have to listen for certain words to know when to get back in the market.
And it is obviously bottom trough.
And my favorite one is capitulation.
When you start hearing capitulation and, and I've been hearing more of that.
So again, going back to fears, a place for opportunity and growth and what Spencer Levy
says now is a great, great time for opportunity.
So start digging and looking at where the opportunities are.
And you're going to have a great fourth quarter and even better start to 2025.
And you know, in regards to opportunity, I have another, I do have a stat for you and
that is that yesterday I got to see Ron Schaafield.
Oh yeah.
He came by and you know, someone that we admire and respect tremendously, my giant in the
industry here in South Florida.
And you know that he loves stats and I love all his reporting.
And he was saying that if you look at the transaction volume and in this case, he's
talking about residential real estate in the first six months of this year.
Look at this stat.
This is why Ron is amazing.
We had the lowest number of transactions than we've had in the first six months of the
past 15 years.
Wow.
Right.
So that's an impactful stat.
Now, you could say, wow, things are, when you are in this industry long enough, while
you're looking at that, when you hear that, you hear opportunity.
Right.
And so that, that's just amazing.
So again, thank you.
Shout out to Ron.
Thank you for bringing this up.
It's a great exercise.
It was a lot of fun.
Thank you for playing.
Well, and I got my three questions.
I think Jessica's right.
I might need an hour and a half.
You know, I don't know if that's going to really help Jessica because then I have to
overthink it and you know, we don't want to overthink it and then put it down that I
got to learn yoga.
Or at least lion's breath.
There you go.
No, no, that's not lion's breath.
That's not type of an eye.
I love it.
Bye everybody.
Thank you for joining us.
I appreciate your support and we will, we will see you next time.
Bye bye.
All right.
And again.