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Hi everybody and welcome back to another episode of Airway First, the podcast from the Children's

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Airway First Foundation. I'm your host Rebecca Downing. My guest today is Dr. Shereen Lim,

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a birth-based dentist with a postgraduate diploma in dental sleep medicine from the University

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of Western Australia. As one of Australia's first handful of dentists to obtain a qualification

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in dental sleep medicine, she has spent more than a decade working with patients with snoring

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and obstructive sleep apnea. Rather than managing dysfunctional breathing and its consequences,

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Dr. Lim is focused on promoting airway health. This means reinforcing nasal breathing and

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promoting good airway development from infancy, as keys to sleeping well, thriving, and a

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greater future health. Dr. Lim regularly sees infants to adults and has been able to pinpoint

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the issues in infancy that lead to bigger problems down the track. She's passionate

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about educating child health professionals from a variety of fields to recognize the

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earliest warning signs of poor airway health, including poor oral facial and poor jaw development,

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and promoting collaborative care to address these as early as possible. Her vision is

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to help more children receive timely care to breathe, sleep, and thrive to their full

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potential and avoid growing into more serious problems later in life. Dr. Lim is also a

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renowned speaker and the author of Breathe, Sleep, Thrive, which is available on Amazon.

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You can find out more about Dr. Lim at DrSherlinLim.com.au. And now here's my interview with Dr. Sharon

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Lim.

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Okay, thank you Dr. Lim for being on our show today. I really appreciate it.

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No, thanks Rebecca for having me. I have followed Children's Airway Health Foundation, the website

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and the blogs and all the resources that you guys have created. So I'm really excited to

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be involved with this to support what you guys are doing.

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Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And just so everybody knows at the end of the show

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in our show notes, I'll make sure to put links about everything we talk about. And when I

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reference your book just so people can see it, this is the book I will be referencing

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throughout our conversation. And if, especially parents, if you haven't read it, I cannot

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recommend it enough, please read it. It's amazing. You'll get your footing. There's so

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much information in there. It's just, it's a great book.

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So that being said, I thought we could start off a little bit talking about on your website,

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you've got your vision and mission statement. And I want to talk about that because to me,

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that sets the groundwork for everything we're going to talk about throughout the course

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of this podcast. And on there, you say your vision is to grow a global community of airway

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and sleep health advocates to help more people breathe, sleep and thrive to their full potential.

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How do we do this? And why now? Why is suddenly this bubbled up to be such a big conversation

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topic?

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Yeah. I mean, in the past, traditional healthcare has been really focused on treating symptoms

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such as depression, ADHD, heart problems. And without really looking at the root causes

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of those issues. And many time when we have poor breathing and poor sleep, that will actually

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play out with the symptoms and increased risk of these problems. So rather than medicating

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people and people, surgeries and all the research focusing on these medications, I want people

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to go back and look at how are people breathing and sleeping? This is where we spend a lot

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of our time during the day. And if we don't breathe well, we're not going to live well.

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So I think it's really important to get this word out. We can most affect people when we

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treat people in the earliest years of life. So we can't really afford to wait longer and

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longer. There's a lot of new research that suggests that we need to work collaboratively

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to ensure people breathe well and grow healthy airways. And it's time to get this information

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out so that we don't miss that vote for many of these children.

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Right. Right. And actually, two different questions kind of to follow up with us, because

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one thing you just touched on it, and I've heard you speak about this before and other

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podcasts and other presentations, where you talk about the stage of breathing dysfunctions

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and that the earliest origins are gestational and infancy. So how is it possible for these

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dysfunctions to appear during pregnancy? And then if we identify them, how early can we

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treat them? Yeah, sure. So I think it's really important for people to recognize when we

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have problems like breathing, like snoring and sleep apnea, they do have developmental

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origins. They're not something that suddenly occurs when you put on weight or when you

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grow older. They have their roots in how well is the jaw growing, the jaw structures, the

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jaw structures being the floor of the nose, the house for the tongue, the support for

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our upper airway or throat. And so these jaws, they grow the most in the first six years

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of life. Even the first year is the most rapid period of development. And what stimulates

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those jaws to develop is how well we use our muscles during sucking, swallowing and breathing.

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Now sucking and swallowing begins in utero from there's been like fetal echography studies

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that show that from 18 weeks is that constant sucking and swallowing pattern going. And

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so there has been some work presented by Dr. Christian Gimano, which found that these

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high pallets and retrognathic or receded jaws can be found very early, even before birth.

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And they're a reflection of dysfunctional sucking and swallowing in utero. Yeah. And

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so because the sucking and swallowing peaks around the third trimester as well, we also

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have to be aware of high risk groups like premature births because when babies are born premature,

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they miss a significant chunk of their sucking and swallowing training and they don't build

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good muscle tone. And so these children as well, they're going to be at risk of high

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arch pallet and problems with their jaw development and their muscle tone as well.

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So if we see it in utero, at this point, just so I understand, there's really nothing we

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can do about it at that point. But if we see it, then we can be prepared to do something

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how quickly once the baby is born. Well, I think the first function, the most important

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modifiable influence on jaw development is going to be breastfeeding in that first year

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of life. So we want to promote the mechanical benefits of breastfeeding to it allow parents

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to make that fully informed decision. Because when we have breastfeeding, it does require

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optimal transfer of milk, good tongue function and good suction. So it's really actually

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the tongue suctioning to the roof of the mouth. And as it drops, it creates a vacuum and that's

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how milk is effectively transferred. And that promotes good swallowing. So even in utero,

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it's that action that actually stimulates proper pallet development. So I'm involved with a lot

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of tongue tonnage from infancy. And we can really see these high arch pallets and the correlation

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with the degree that that tongue can suction. And yes, we can identify these issues. We can't

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really change the pallet in a big, big way when it's already very high. But what we can do is we

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can promote breastfeeding and proper suction of that tongue. And that can sometimes mean tongue

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tie release or working with a good lactation consultant who can really optimize the latsch

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and help ensure that we're getting the deepest possible latsch and allowing that tongue to

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function as best as possible. And that stretches that will help stretch and move the mouth,

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expand it naturally. The more and more tones that tongue is and working well, the more our

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muscles are working, that will actually provide the proper stimulus for the jaws to grow well.

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However, sometimes that pallet is so high that no matter what we do, it's really hard for that

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tongue to reach the roof of the pallet and to stimulate more normal development. So we can

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identify that these are the children that are going to have more problems. And we want to minimize

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dummy use or pacifier use, which actually promotes low tonne posture and incorrect swallowing,

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which sort of distorts the pallet further. And we, you know, I'm a big advocate for things like

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osteopathic treatment to kind of help to release any cranial strains or just allow the bones to

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move more freely and develop more normally. And at the age of six years to be able to then introduce

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good chewing, you know, harder diets rather than overdoing the purees, baby lead winning. I think

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that's a really good approach to look into just everything that we can do to get the muscles

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working well, because we can't really do pallet expansion until children have developed their

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set of 20 baby teeth that we require to support the expander.

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Yeah. Well, that, and that kind of answers one of my questions, you know, when, when can we start it?

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So you obviously were much later than infancy at that point.

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Yes. Yeah. So for pallet expansion, I have colleagues that are doing it from the age of two years.

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My comfort zone is age three. So if a child is pretty easy to engage with, or they can sit in

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the chair for a full set of photos, then often they could be a very good candidate, particularly

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if they're not breathing well, sleeping well, behavioral concerns, difficult to manage, emotional

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regulation. They're the children that I might want to look at intervening sooner. There really is no

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need to wait until the permanent teeth come through, because the brain development, you know, 90%

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is done by the first three years of life. Child's brain is 90% of the adult size by age three,

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or something like that. I may not be quite accurate there, but, you know, a lot of development goes

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on in those early years of life. So we want to make sure that they are sleeping and breathing well,

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and pallet expansion being a very good intervention to address that risk factor.

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And then with pallet expansion, that device is put in and it's relatively permanent, right? It's

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not something that the child pops out in or out daily, correct?

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There's actually quite a few different appliances and different ways that you can expand the pallet.

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And the way that pallet expansion works to get true bony expansion, it works because in the middle

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of the pallet, there's a midline suture and it's not completely fused. It starts fusing around the

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age of nine. And so if we gently separate the two halves of the pallet, we can actually stimulate

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bone. It's also called distraction osteogenesis. So there are multiple types of appliances and

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anything that has the key that you turn can actually open up that suture and stimulate the bone. So

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there are fixed appliances and there are removable appliances. And so any of those appliances can work

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in a very young child just because their suture is so open to movement. And so I tend to use

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removable appliances. I'm really comfortable with the use of the bioblock appliance,

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but there are multiple ways to do it. So obviously with a removable, it does require compliance.

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Children, I get them to wear at full time to eat, to sleep, to go to kindergarten or school.

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And you do require a compliant child, but more importantly, compliant like a parent that's

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really on board to can help supervise. So it may not be for everybody. There are multiple ways of

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doing it, but it is really the ones with a screw that we're looking for, because there are things

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like alpha appliances and Invisalign that don't really produce that true skeletal bone expansion

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right at the midline, which is the floor of the nose. Still can be good for making more tongue

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space, but not as proven or well studied to improve sleep and breathing quickly.

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Gotcha. And what's the difference between a mandibular advancement device and pallet expansion

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for a pallet expander? So mandibular advancement devices are typically used for non-growing

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people like adults who is snoring and obstructive sleep apnea and what they do, they're worn during

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sleep to actually advance the lower jaw forward. And the aim of those appliances is to help improve

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breathing or open up the airway. But by advancing the lower jaw forward, we're bringing the tongue

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forward because the tongue is often a risk factor for collapsed breathing during sleep.

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And when we bring our lower jaw forward and our tongue comes forward, it stretches open the muscles

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of the throat. So it helps to keep the airway more open during sleep. And so they're quite effective

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for certain individuals that have receded jaws and they do help people with their sleep quality.

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It really is a bandaid solution for a problem with jaw development. And so I do think that we

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can do better for our patients if we actually get in early and help their jaws grow better

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and address those oldest functions that lead to poor jaw development.

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Right, because if we can do this early or early for right, then we're preventing these adults

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that are having problems.

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A plethora of issues. It's amazing how much is related.

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Yeah, I think I first got into snoring and sleep apnea because of my husband's snoring

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and really looking into these dental sleep appliances. And as much as they can help people's

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quality of life, it really is a bandaid solution. And often people ultimately after a long period

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of time, they may have different problems with it, like their jaw problems or they break and lose it.

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And then they can't really live without it. It's kind of like a crutch. So I also think that

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for adults with snoring and sleep apnea, yes, it can be very despairing. It can really affect their

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quality of life. And that's one of the reasons why I think we need early intervention.

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But for adults, I think beyond those type of bandaid solutions as well, we really need to look at how

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can we help improve their breathing daytime and nighttime as well so that they can actually get

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better and they don't have to rely on these nighttime crutches. And when we're looking at what are the

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best solutions for adults or what's really going to help improve their quality of life without

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them having to rely on things, we're really looking at advanced jaw surgeries, like palate

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expansion for adults, which is a lot more difficult than doing it in children or double jaw

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advancement surgeries and that sort of thing as well. So it's really complex. And sometimes it's

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really hard to find providers that really can understand and integrate these treatments. When

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do we do palate expansion? When do we do double jaw advancement surgery? And so I really do think

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at the end of the day, we need to intervene early. Or earlier is definitely the way when you mentioned

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that it is kind of a bandaid. CPAP is something that we hear a lot about, especially on our program

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people talk about that. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because you mentioned a bandaid and I've

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always wondered at the point at night is for it to push all this extra air in. What happens to

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these people during the day? So in theory, if that's helping you at night, you're still walking

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around during the day without any help or support, you just you're not snoring. But that issue does

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still exist, correct? It is because snoring is really a symptom of poor airway development.

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And it's a the problem really is a constricted airway. But it plays out during sleep because

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during time we can keep our mouth open. We all our reflexes are intact. But during sleep,

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when we're lying on our backs, you know, the tongue is more likely to flop when we're all

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our muscles are more relaxed reflexes that keep our upper airway open, they're not as intact.

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This is when it plays out. So it is actually more of a day problem,

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airway problem that plays out during sleep. So yeah, CPAP, you know, again, really,

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it's a bandaid solution. There are so many people that can't tolerate it. And even when

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they do the long term compliance is not really that great. And so again,

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nowadays, people want to be healthier, they want to actually work out what is a solution,

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how can I actually get healthier rather than rely on these problems. And it really does come down to

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jaw surgery. So a lot more adults are becoming interested in how can we do these double jaw

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surgeries or this palate expansion. Right, to get to the root and fix it so that they've got this

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long term solution. That's right. Yeah, but but along the way, we've missed all those warning

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signs and people have suffered for decades without having, you know, a clear mind or

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good attention and concentration and all the other symptoms that go with it.

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You're listening to airway first with today's guests, Dr. Sharon Lim.

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You can find out more about the Children's Airway First Foundation and our mission to fix before

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six on our website at Children's Airway First dot org. The CAF website offers tons of great

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resources for parents and medical professionals, including videos, blogs, recommended reading

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lists, comprehensive medical research, podcasts, and so much more. We encourage parents to join

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the Airway Huddle, our Facebook support group, which was created for parents of children with

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airway and sleep related issues. You can access the airway huddle support group at Facebook.com

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backslash groups backslash airway huddle. Are you a medical professional or parent that is

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interested in being a guest on the show? Or do you have an idea for an upcoming episode?

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If so, shoot us a note via the contacts page on our website or send us an email directly at

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info at Children's Airway First dot org. As a reminder, this podcast and the opinions expressed

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here are not a medical diagnosis. If you suspect your child might have an airway issue, contact

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your pediatric airway dentist or pediatrician. And now let's jump back into my interview with

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today's guest, Dr. Sharon Lim.

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And you talk and we've talked about this on our on our programs before, but in your book, you've

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you talk a great deal about tongue ties in children. And I actually found that quite

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quite interesting because even as much as we've talked about it, the way you explain it and the

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visuals that go along with it, it really helps to clarify things. But just for some of our parents

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who maybe haven't read this yet. So how can we accurately identify a tongue tie? Because I think

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we've all done this. You go in the mirror and you lift up your tongue and you see that little

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thing hanging down and you think, Oh, I have a tongue tie. So how do you actually identify a

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tongue tie? And as parents, what are we looking for specifically? Yeah, it is quite a complicated

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question to answer. You know, because a lot of us as health professionals, even dentists, we

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consider our physicians or physicians of the mouth, we are not taught anything about tongue

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tie in dental schools. That's really hard for us to be able to identify anything beyond the very

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obvious tongue tie that goes all the way to the tip of the tongue. So they're pretty readily

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identifiable. Often can be picked up by pediatricians in hospital. But the ones that are more tricky

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and more gray and less easy to diagnose are called posterior tongue ties. And these ones

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are more hidden as in they don't extend necessarily all the way to the tip of the tongue.

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They may be a little bit further back. But what they can do is they can prevent that normal

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section that for efficient transfer of milk and that normal suction for good tongue posture to

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actually develop the palate properly and for that tongue to be well toned to help keep our airway

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open during sleep. So how do we identify them? Well, we really do need to work with people that

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are really well trained. And usually these are people that have actually gone and done further

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study beyond traditional medical and dental training. So working with people that are really

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involved with tongue tie management on a daily basis. And really, we do need to lie babies down

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and manually lift up the tongue to actually have a look and to really feel the degree of restriction.

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And we need to be able to take into account what is the feeding like and what are the symptoms

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experienced by parents. Sometimes, you know, if there is pain or there's problems with weight gain

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or fussy feeding, we really need to not rule out posterior tongue tie and have that properly

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investigated. Because there's now a lot of research to support that posterior tongue tie

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or that those more hidden tongue ties are implicated in reflux like symptoms or aerophasia.

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And babies are getting put on medications and all sorts of things like thickeners and different

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things. But really, we're not addressing the root issue, which is horse swallowing and sucking and

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the excessive intake of air, which leads to all those issues. And sometimes tongue tie

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at least can be a helpful intervention to manage that. So I think the most important thing for

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parents is to recognize that it's not always a straightforward easy diagnosis that we are trained

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as professionals to look for. If there are problems you want to work with really well trained

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international board certified lactation consultants and your other professionals that

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really have a special interest in this area, that will take into account your symptoms and issues as

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well. So you're talking myofunctional therapists? Yeah, I think people that deal with infants on a

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regular basis. Okay, they're going to be the ones that can spot it a little easier.

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Or yeah, have a bigger picture regarding it as well. Because a lot of the time people go, oh,

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your baby is sticking their tongue out. And it's really not protrusion or the how far they can

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stick out the tongue. It's really the when it comes to breathing and sleep and development of the

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jaws, we need proper elevation. And even sometimes babies can compensate and then

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end up cheeks to create the suction. And that's really not allowing the tongue to work either.

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And it just leads to a snowball of dysfunctional swallowing and orthodontic problems and all

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that sort of thing as well. So working with a lactation consultant that is trained to look at

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the actual function and the mechanics of the mouth is going to be a really good option.

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That makes sense. Okay. And in your book you talk about, and this kind of ties under this,

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that we have to focus more on good breathing and sleep as pillars, instead of just continuing to treat

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and manage symptoms with medication and surgery. So in your opinion, what does this look like to you?

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First of all, what does that look like? But then how do we turn this ship? Because I've heard from

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several guests who just not taught this in medical school or were not taught this in dental school.

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How do we fix this? Well, I think everybody recognizes that good diet

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and exercise is really important for good health and health span. But we need to pay attention

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to healthy breathing. It's the breathing that is the most number one critical function that we

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need to sustain us. And we need to pay more attention to how does that breathing look like?

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Is it through the nose? Is it correct healthy breathing? And how do we get this out? Well,

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that's why I try to share as much information as I can. And that's why I've written the book.

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And James Nesta, our breathe, his breath, that was a very, very good book as well to really

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help people appreciate the importance of healthy breathing. So it's really getting that information

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out there. And I don't know exactly how to get the information out further. But I do think things

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like this book, every day I'm getting emails or messages from different people wishing that they

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knew this information earlier. And so I think we're only just at the cusp of like, it's really

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gathering a lot of momentum that people demanding more knowledge be shared. And I hope that

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eventually it's into something in the future. Yeah. And can you see or does it make sense to have these

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more instead of separate standing offices or facilities, these things that are a lot more

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collaborative where dentists and pediatricians and osteopaths and myofunctional therapists

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start to work more holistically on patients instead of in their separate little siloed areas?

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Absolutely. Because I think when it comes to mouth breathing, a lot of people think, oh,

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there must be an obstruction. And the person that comes to mind is an ENT specialist, just surgeon,

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who will typically take things out of the nose and the throat to improve breathing.

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But just as important is looking at the outside framework of the airway, which really comes down

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to the jaws, because when we don't have good jaw development or we have a narrow palate,

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we're going to have a limitation of airflow. And this is when it becomes easier to breathe with

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your mouth open. And then we need to look at the muscle patterns as well, because sometimes when

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you breathe through your mouth for a long time, it becomes a muscle deficit where your tongue is

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sitting low, when your lips become flaccid, and you're just not used to using your

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nose. And so we need to look at the possibility of speech therapists and myofunctional therapists

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to help restore those types of deficits as well. And there are all sorts of implications with

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body posture. And there's a role for many different professionals to get the muscles working well,

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to help restore nasal breathing and those jaw structures that are the framework, the good airway.

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So yes, it is important that we all recognize these problems. With the lactation consultant,

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we don't want them to just make sure that babies are feeding without pain or putting on weight

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gain. They have a really good role in optimizing the muscles, because that is the foundation for

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the way in which we're going to chew and swallow and grow our jaws. So really helping people understand

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what is their role. I think there's a lot more multi-disciplinary courses and conferences now.

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So I think that is really helpful to have more and more people on the same page,

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really understanding that we need to work together to promote this integrative approach.

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Yeah, I agree with that. So one part of your focus is also on sleep. And so you talk about

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sleep studies and how they can help as far as evaluating and coming up with a course of treatment

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for adults. But when it comes to children, my understanding is there are some limitations

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that and expectations that maybe we could set for parents, because it's very different with

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children. Yes. Yes. I think, well, there's quite a few limitations with sleep studies

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in general. Okay. So probably the main things that I'd want parents to recognize or even adults,

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when we get a sleep study, it offers a lot of information regarding sleep times, durations,

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how many pauses in breathing, what are the durations, how much mouth breathing. But typically,

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all that information gets summarized in a report and it comes down to AHI, apnea hypotnea index,

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which is really a measure of obstructive sleep apnea. So that happens a lot with the reports.

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But really, to get counted as having obstructive sleep apnea, you have to have a minimum of five,

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10 second pauses in breathing as an adult per hour of sleep. Okay. Yes. Five per hour. And they

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have to be 10 seconds. They can't be nine, they can't be eight. So it's pretty severe. Like even

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if you have mild sleep apnea, it's severe breathing disturbance. And when it comes to children,

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because of the recognition that children are very vulnerable to oxygen deprivation,

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they just need to have one per hour to get a diagnosis of obstructive sleep apnea.

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But the problem is that obstructive sleep apnea really is a severe breathing dysfunction. And if

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we turn around and tell people that this report says you have no obstructive sleep apnea, therefore,

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we cannot really propose any treatment. We're actually missing those really pre-care ser forms

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or the more subtle breathing disturbances, which also lead to symptoms like snoring and

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unrefreshed sleep and all the other symptoms with learning concerns, memory fog, because

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it's very arbitrary cutoff. And so with children, children do not tend to get obstructive sleep

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apnea. They tend to have more upper airway respiratory resistance syndrome, sorry, upper airway

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resistance syndrome, which is sympathetic nervous systems are very intact. And they're more likely

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to respond as soon as there's a threat to oxygen supply or a closure, increased resistance to

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breathing. They're aroused from sleep. And so they do not get those 10 second obstructions.

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But what that means is their sleep is very, very disturbed. Even if they snore, we know that

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that is linked to increased risk of inattention, because it is actually really disruptive for

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their sleep. And so it may be linked to signs like teeth grinding, they're all protective

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mechanisms to protect against sleep apnea, but really they're linked to unrefreshing sleep. And

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if we miss that, we are not going to be able to treat well those children that are suffering

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with those symptoms. So generally speaking, if I have a child that comes in with snoring and

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they're having daytime issues, I am not really going to refer them for a sleep study, because in

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my area, it will come down to the AHI. I will address anything if I think they've got obstructive

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tonsils or they've got obstruction of their nose. I will send them to an ENT. If they've got a

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constrictor palate, I'll deal with that. If their muscles aren't working, their tongue is tied and

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not functioning well, I'll look at doing that. So I'll try and address all of those risk factors,

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because I think what's really important is that we are not just treating

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obstructive sleep, making sure that children can breathe well through their nose 24 seven.

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Got it. All right. So in your book, you give quite a bit of guidance about

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airway-centric dentistry or airway aware dentistry, or two phrases that we hear a lot of.

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How do parents identify that they have an airway focused or an airway-centric dentists?

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And then how do these exams look different than just a regular dental exam?

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Yeah, sure. Okay. So how do we identify it? Well, if you're coming in with a child,

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you want to know if that dentist has any knowledge of snoring or sleep

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breathing disturbances. Do they refer to an ENT specialist? Do they look at tongue ties?

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Do they understand that? When do they refer for early interceptive orthodontics?

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Generally speaking, if you are more airway aware, you'll be more prone to offer that as an option.

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You don't necessarily need to wait until seven to eight. But then again, a lot of people have a

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problem finding someone that will do the interceptive treatment before their age as well. I think one of

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the really good questions to like teeth grinding, teeth grinding is a key red flag, one of the

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strongest red flags in the mouth that a child is not breathing or sleeping well. So even trying to

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see what do they think about that? If it's something that they say is quite normal, children will

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grow out of that is probably not an airway aware dentist because that is actually what we're taught

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in dental school. But if they understand that it could be linked to disturbed breathing, that is

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probably one dentist that will understand it in terms of what is different. Well, my practice

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is really focused on this type of thing. So I do spend like a full hour for a new patient

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consultant and we'll go through the full entire history of their sleep really clicking down into

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a lot of those type of questions. But for a general dentist, I think you want to hear questions like

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does your child snore? You know, what is their behavior like? Maybe some of those questions

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might mean that that dentist is actually interested. Stay aware. Okay. Excellent. So typically at the

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end of every episode, I like to turn the floor back over to our guests and let you have the final

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word and it can be anything you can talk to parents, you can talk to medical professionals,

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you can talk to both if there's anything you want to reiterate. It's completely up to you.

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Yeah, that is great. So I think, well, I think for parents to recognize a lot of people don't

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realize that mouth breathing is a problem. You know, people look at their child with their

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mouth open and think it's cute and full of character. Just to recognize that yes, it is not, it means

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that your child is not able to sleep to the best that they can and it can play out with many different

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issues. And when children have issues like ear infections or bedwetting or speech concerns and

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all these other things that can be a symptom of poor breathing, we really need to address that

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poor breathing. And it's not just an ENT surgeon. Sometimes you can get your child's adenoids and

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tonsils or removed and have grommets placed, but we really need to recognize that those issues may

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itself be a symptom. And we've still got to manage deeper if we want to address this problem

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clearly. And so really looking at all the different aspects, whether it be their jaw or their

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mouth function to try to optimize those things. And really the book is to help parents recognize

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those red flags and give them some direction of what are the different paths that they need to

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look at to ensure that their child develops their airway well. And the best time to find out more

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about it is even when you're pregnant or during infancy, we may not be able to do everything

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straight away, but to have that idea, I think will really empower parents to be able to ensure

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that they're making the best choices for their children's future. I love it. And again, thank

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you so much for being on the show and for sharing all of your knowledge. I will put links to everything

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in our show notes. And just thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks very much, Rebecca, for having me.

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I really want my network to be able to follow what you guys are doing as well. We do not need to

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recreate the will in terms of developing resources. You guys have put out a lot of great stuff that

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we can help share with parents as well. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks to today's guest,

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Dr Sharon Lim, for sharing her medical insight and to each of you for listening to today's episode.

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If you're new to our podcast, don't forget to subscribe. And if you enjoyed today's episode,

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leave us a review or a comment telling us about what you enjoyed most.

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You can stay connected with the Children's Airway First Foundation by following us on Instagram,

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the Airway Huddle, at facebook.com backslash groups backslash airway huddle. Are you looking for

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more from Kath? Then check out our new YouTube channel. You can find a variety of informative

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original video content as well as the video recordings and excerpts from selected Airway

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First podcast episodes. If you'd like to be a guest or have an idea for an upcoming episode,

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shoot us a note via the context page on our website or send us an email directly at info

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at childrensairwayfirst.org. And finally, thanks to all the parents and medical professionals out

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there that are working to help make the lives of kids around the globe just a little bit better.

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Take care, stay safe, and happy breathing everyone.