Hi everybody and welcome back to another episode of Airway First, the podcast from the Children's
Airway First Foundation. I'm your host Rebecca Downing. My guest today is Dr. Shereen Lim,
a birth-based dentist with a postgraduate diploma in dental sleep medicine from the University
of Western Australia. As one of Australia's first handful of dentists to obtain a qualification
in dental sleep medicine, she has spent more than a decade working with patients with snoring
and obstructive sleep apnea. Rather than managing dysfunctional breathing and its consequences,
Dr. Lim is focused on promoting airway health. This means reinforcing nasal breathing and
promoting good airway development from infancy, as keys to sleeping well, thriving, and a
greater future health. Dr. Lim regularly sees infants to adults and has been able to pinpoint
the issues in infancy that lead to bigger problems down the track. She's passionate
about educating child health professionals from a variety of fields to recognize the
earliest warning signs of poor airway health, including poor oral facial and poor jaw development,
and promoting collaborative care to address these as early as possible. Her vision is
to help more children receive timely care to breathe, sleep, and thrive to their full
potential and avoid growing into more serious problems later in life. Dr. Lim is also a
renowned speaker and the author of Breathe, Sleep, Thrive, which is available on Amazon.
You can find out more about Dr. Lim at DrSherlinLim.com.au. And now here's my interview with Dr. Sharon
Lim.
Okay, thank you Dr. Lim for being on our show today. I really appreciate it.
No, thanks Rebecca for having me. I have followed Children's Airway Health Foundation, the website
and the blogs and all the resources that you guys have created. So I'm really excited to
be involved with this to support what you guys are doing.
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And just so everybody knows at the end of the show
in our show notes, I'll make sure to put links about everything we talk about. And when I
reference your book just so people can see it, this is the book I will be referencing
throughout our conversation. And if, especially parents, if you haven't read it, I cannot
recommend it enough, please read it. It's amazing. You'll get your footing. There's so
much information in there. It's just, it's a great book.
So that being said, I thought we could start off a little bit talking about on your website,
you've got your vision and mission statement. And I want to talk about that because to me,
that sets the groundwork for everything we're going to talk about throughout the course
of this podcast. And on there, you say your vision is to grow a global community of airway
and sleep health advocates to help more people breathe, sleep and thrive to their full potential.
How do we do this? And why now? Why is suddenly this bubbled up to be such a big conversation
topic?
Yeah. I mean, in the past, traditional healthcare has been really focused on treating symptoms
such as depression, ADHD, heart problems. And without really looking at the root causes
of those issues. And many time when we have poor breathing and poor sleep, that will actually
play out with the symptoms and increased risk of these problems. So rather than medicating
people and people, surgeries and all the research focusing on these medications, I want people
to go back and look at how are people breathing and sleeping? This is where we spend a lot
of our time during the day. And if we don't breathe well, we're not going to live well.
So I think it's really important to get this word out. We can most affect people when we
treat people in the earliest years of life. So we can't really afford to wait longer and
longer. There's a lot of new research that suggests that we need to work collaboratively
to ensure people breathe well and grow healthy airways. And it's time to get this information
out so that we don't miss that vote for many of these children.
Right. Right. And actually, two different questions kind of to follow up with us, because
one thing you just touched on it, and I've heard you speak about this before and other
podcasts and other presentations, where you talk about the stage of breathing dysfunctions
and that the earliest origins are gestational and infancy. So how is it possible for these
dysfunctions to appear during pregnancy? And then if we identify them, how early can we
treat them? Yeah, sure. So I think it's really important for people to recognize when we
have problems like breathing, like snoring and sleep apnea, they do have developmental
origins. They're not something that suddenly occurs when you put on weight or when you
grow older. They have their roots in how well is the jaw growing, the jaw structures, the
jaw structures being the floor of the nose, the house for the tongue, the support for
our upper airway or throat. And so these jaws, they grow the most in the first six years
of life. Even the first year is the most rapid period of development. And what stimulates
those jaws to develop is how well we use our muscles during sucking, swallowing and breathing.
Now sucking and swallowing begins in utero from there's been like fetal echography studies
that show that from 18 weeks is that constant sucking and swallowing pattern going. And
so there has been some work presented by Dr. Christian Gimano, which found that these
high pallets and retrognathic or receded jaws can be found very early, even before birth.
And they're a reflection of dysfunctional sucking and swallowing in utero. Yeah. And
so because the sucking and swallowing peaks around the third trimester as well, we also
have to be aware of high risk groups like premature births because when babies are born premature,
they miss a significant chunk of their sucking and swallowing training and they don't build
good muscle tone. And so these children as well, they're going to be at risk of high
arch pallet and problems with their jaw development and their muscle tone as well.
So if we see it in utero, at this point, just so I understand, there's really nothing we
can do about it at that point. But if we see it, then we can be prepared to do something
how quickly once the baby is born. Well, I think the first function, the most important
modifiable influence on jaw development is going to be breastfeeding in that first year
of life. So we want to promote the mechanical benefits of breastfeeding to it allow parents
to make that fully informed decision. Because when we have breastfeeding, it does require
optimal transfer of milk, good tongue function and good suction. So it's really actually
the tongue suctioning to the roof of the mouth. And as it drops, it creates a vacuum and that's
how milk is effectively transferred. And that promotes good swallowing. So even in utero,
it's that action that actually stimulates proper pallet development. So I'm involved with a lot
of tongue tonnage from infancy. And we can really see these high arch pallets and the correlation
with the degree that that tongue can suction. And yes, we can identify these issues. We can't
really change the pallet in a big, big way when it's already very high. But what we can do is we
can promote breastfeeding and proper suction of that tongue. And that can sometimes mean tongue
tie release or working with a good lactation consultant who can really optimize the latsch
and help ensure that we're getting the deepest possible latsch and allowing that tongue to
function as best as possible. And that stretches that will help stretch and move the mouth,
expand it naturally. The more and more tones that tongue is and working well, the more our
muscles are working, that will actually provide the proper stimulus for the jaws to grow well.
However, sometimes that pallet is so high that no matter what we do, it's really hard for that
tongue to reach the roof of the pallet and to stimulate more normal development. So we can
identify that these are the children that are going to have more problems. And we want to minimize
dummy use or pacifier use, which actually promotes low tonne posture and incorrect swallowing,
which sort of distorts the pallet further. And we, you know, I'm a big advocate for things like
osteopathic treatment to kind of help to release any cranial strains or just allow the bones to
move more freely and develop more normally. And at the age of six years to be able to then introduce
good chewing, you know, harder diets rather than overdoing the purees, baby lead winning. I think
that's a really good approach to look into just everything that we can do to get the muscles
working well, because we can't really do pallet expansion until children have developed their
set of 20 baby teeth that we require to support the expander.
Yeah. Well, that, and that kind of answers one of my questions, you know, when, when can we start it?
So you obviously were much later than infancy at that point.
Yes. Yeah. So for pallet expansion, I have colleagues that are doing it from the age of two years.
My comfort zone is age three. So if a child is pretty easy to engage with, or they can sit in
the chair for a full set of photos, then often they could be a very good candidate, particularly
if they're not breathing well, sleeping well, behavioral concerns, difficult to manage, emotional
regulation. They're the children that I might want to look at intervening sooner. There really is no
need to wait until the permanent teeth come through, because the brain development, you know, 90%
is done by the first three years of life. Child's brain is 90% of the adult size by age three,
or something like that. I may not be quite accurate there, but, you know, a lot of development goes
on in those early years of life. So we want to make sure that they are sleeping and breathing well,
and pallet expansion being a very good intervention to address that risk factor.
And then with pallet expansion, that device is put in and it's relatively permanent, right? It's
not something that the child pops out in or out daily, correct?
There's actually quite a few different appliances and different ways that you can expand the pallet.
And the way that pallet expansion works to get true bony expansion, it works because in the middle
of the pallet, there's a midline suture and it's not completely fused. It starts fusing around the
age of nine. And so if we gently separate the two halves of the pallet, we can actually stimulate
bone. It's also called distraction osteogenesis. So there are multiple types of appliances and
anything that has the key that you turn can actually open up that suture and stimulate the bone. So
there are fixed appliances and there are removable appliances. And so any of those appliances can work
in a very young child just because their suture is so open to movement. And so I tend to use
removable appliances. I'm really comfortable with the use of the bioblock appliance,
but there are multiple ways to do it. So obviously with a removable, it does require compliance.
Children, I get them to wear at full time to eat, to sleep, to go to kindergarten or school.
And you do require a compliant child, but more importantly, compliant like a parent that's
really on board to can help supervise. So it may not be for everybody. There are multiple ways of
doing it, but it is really the ones with a screw that we're looking for, because there are things
like alpha appliances and Invisalign that don't really produce that true skeletal bone expansion
right at the midline, which is the floor of the nose. Still can be good for making more tongue
space, but not as proven or well studied to improve sleep and breathing quickly.
Gotcha. And what's the difference between a mandibular advancement device and pallet expansion
for a pallet expander? So mandibular advancement devices are typically used for non-growing
people like adults who is snoring and obstructive sleep apnea and what they do, they're worn during
sleep to actually advance the lower jaw forward. And the aim of those appliances is to help improve
breathing or open up the airway. But by advancing the lower jaw forward, we're bringing the tongue
forward because the tongue is often a risk factor for collapsed breathing during sleep.
And when we bring our lower jaw forward and our tongue comes forward, it stretches open the muscles
of the throat. So it helps to keep the airway more open during sleep. And so they're quite effective
for certain individuals that have receded jaws and they do help people with their sleep quality.
It really is a bandaid solution for a problem with jaw development. And so I do think that we
can do better for our patients if we actually get in early and help their jaws grow better
and address those oldest functions that lead to poor jaw development.
Right, because if we can do this early or early for right, then we're preventing these adults
that are having problems.
A plethora of issues. It's amazing how much is related.
Yeah, I think I first got into snoring and sleep apnea because of my husband's snoring
and really looking into these dental sleep appliances. And as much as they can help people's
quality of life, it really is a bandaid solution. And often people ultimately after a long period
of time, they may have different problems with it, like their jaw problems or they break and lose it.
And then they can't really live without it. It's kind of like a crutch. So I also think that
for adults with snoring and sleep apnea, yes, it can be very despairing. It can really affect their
quality of life. And that's one of the reasons why I think we need early intervention.
But for adults, I think beyond those type of bandaid solutions as well, we really need to look at how
can we help improve their breathing daytime and nighttime as well so that they can actually get
better and they don't have to rely on these nighttime crutches. And when we're looking at what are the
best solutions for adults or what's really going to help improve their quality of life without
them having to rely on things, we're really looking at advanced jaw surgeries, like palate
expansion for adults, which is a lot more difficult than doing it in children or double jaw
advancement surgeries and that sort of thing as well. So it's really complex. And sometimes it's
really hard to find providers that really can understand and integrate these treatments. When
do we do palate expansion? When do we do double jaw advancement surgery? And so I really do think
at the end of the day, we need to intervene early. Or earlier is definitely the way when you mentioned
that it is kind of a bandaid. CPAP is something that we hear a lot about, especially on our program
people talk about that. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because you mentioned a bandaid and I've
always wondered at the point at night is for it to push all this extra air in. What happens to
these people during the day? So in theory, if that's helping you at night, you're still walking
around during the day without any help or support, you just you're not snoring. But that issue does
still exist, correct? It is because snoring is really a symptom of poor airway development.
And it's a the problem really is a constricted airway. But it plays out during sleep because
during time we can keep our mouth open. We all our reflexes are intact. But during sleep,
when we're lying on our backs, you know, the tongue is more likely to flop when we're all
our muscles are more relaxed reflexes that keep our upper airway open, they're not as intact.
This is when it plays out. So it is actually more of a day problem,
airway problem that plays out during sleep. So yeah, CPAP, you know, again, really,
it's a bandaid solution. There are so many people that can't tolerate it. And even when
they do the long term compliance is not really that great. And so again,
nowadays, people want to be healthier, they want to actually work out what is a solution,
how can I actually get healthier rather than rely on these problems. And it really does come down to
jaw surgery. So a lot more adults are becoming interested in how can we do these double jaw
surgeries or this palate expansion. Right, to get to the root and fix it so that they've got this
long term solution. That's right. Yeah, but but along the way, we've missed all those warning
signs and people have suffered for decades without having, you know, a clear mind or
good attention and concentration and all the other symptoms that go with it.
You're listening to airway first with today's guests, Dr. Sharon Lim.
You can find out more about the Children's Airway First Foundation and our mission to fix before
six on our website at Children's Airway First dot org. The CAF website offers tons of great
resources for parents and medical professionals, including videos, blogs, recommended reading
lists, comprehensive medical research, podcasts, and so much more. We encourage parents to join
the Airway Huddle, our Facebook support group, which was created for parents of children with
airway and sleep related issues. You can access the airway huddle support group at Facebook.com
backslash groups backslash airway huddle. Are you a medical professional or parent that is
interested in being a guest on the show? Or do you have an idea for an upcoming episode?
If so, shoot us a note via the contacts page on our website or send us an email directly at
info at Children's Airway First dot org. As a reminder, this podcast and the opinions expressed
here are not a medical diagnosis. If you suspect your child might have an airway issue, contact
your pediatric airway dentist or pediatrician. And now let's jump back into my interview with
today's guest, Dr. Sharon Lim.
And you talk and we've talked about this on our on our programs before, but in your book, you've
you talk a great deal about tongue ties in children. And I actually found that quite
quite interesting because even as much as we've talked about it, the way you explain it and the
visuals that go along with it, it really helps to clarify things. But just for some of our parents
who maybe haven't read this yet. So how can we accurately identify a tongue tie? Because I think
we've all done this. You go in the mirror and you lift up your tongue and you see that little
thing hanging down and you think, Oh, I have a tongue tie. So how do you actually identify a
tongue tie? And as parents, what are we looking for specifically? Yeah, it is quite a complicated
question to answer. You know, because a lot of us as health professionals, even dentists, we
consider our physicians or physicians of the mouth, we are not taught anything about tongue
tie in dental schools. That's really hard for us to be able to identify anything beyond the very
obvious tongue tie that goes all the way to the tip of the tongue. So they're pretty readily
identifiable. Often can be picked up by pediatricians in hospital. But the ones that are more tricky
and more gray and less easy to diagnose are called posterior tongue ties. And these ones
are more hidden as in they don't extend necessarily all the way to the tip of the tongue.
They may be a little bit further back. But what they can do is they can prevent that normal
section that for efficient transfer of milk and that normal suction for good tongue posture to
actually develop the palate properly and for that tongue to be well toned to help keep our airway
open during sleep. So how do we identify them? Well, we really do need to work with people that
are really well trained. And usually these are people that have actually gone and done further
study beyond traditional medical and dental training. So working with people that are really
involved with tongue tie management on a daily basis. And really, we do need to lie babies down
and manually lift up the tongue to actually have a look and to really feel the degree of restriction.
And we need to be able to take into account what is the feeding like and what are the symptoms
experienced by parents. Sometimes, you know, if there is pain or there's problems with weight gain
or fussy feeding, we really need to not rule out posterior tongue tie and have that properly
investigated. Because there's now a lot of research to support that posterior tongue tie
or that those more hidden tongue ties are implicated in reflux like symptoms or aerophasia.
And babies are getting put on medications and all sorts of things like thickeners and different
things. But really, we're not addressing the root issue, which is horse swallowing and sucking and
the excessive intake of air, which leads to all those issues. And sometimes tongue tie
at least can be a helpful intervention to manage that. So I think the most important thing for
parents is to recognize that it's not always a straightforward easy diagnosis that we are trained
as professionals to look for. If there are problems you want to work with really well trained
international board certified lactation consultants and your other professionals that
really have a special interest in this area, that will take into account your symptoms and issues as
well. So you're talking myofunctional therapists? Yeah, I think people that deal with infants on a
regular basis. Okay, they're going to be the ones that can spot it a little easier.
Or yeah, have a bigger picture regarding it as well. Because a lot of the time people go, oh,
your baby is sticking their tongue out. And it's really not protrusion or the how far they can
stick out the tongue. It's really the when it comes to breathing and sleep and development of the
jaws, we need proper elevation. And even sometimes babies can compensate and then
end up cheeks to create the suction. And that's really not allowing the tongue to work either.
And it just leads to a snowball of dysfunctional swallowing and orthodontic problems and all
that sort of thing as well. So working with a lactation consultant that is trained to look at
the actual function and the mechanics of the mouth is going to be a really good option.
That makes sense. Okay. And in your book you talk about, and this kind of ties under this,
that we have to focus more on good breathing and sleep as pillars, instead of just continuing to treat
and manage symptoms with medication and surgery. So in your opinion, what does this look like to you?
First of all, what does that look like? But then how do we turn this ship? Because I've heard from
several guests who just not taught this in medical school or were not taught this in dental school.
How do we fix this? Well, I think everybody recognizes that good diet
and exercise is really important for good health and health span. But we need to pay attention
to healthy breathing. It's the breathing that is the most number one critical function that we
need to sustain us. And we need to pay more attention to how does that breathing look like?
Is it through the nose? Is it correct healthy breathing? And how do we get this out? Well,
that's why I try to share as much information as I can. And that's why I've written the book.
And James Nesta, our breathe, his breath, that was a very, very good book as well to really
help people appreciate the importance of healthy breathing. So it's really getting that information
out there. And I don't know exactly how to get the information out further. But I do think things
like this book, every day I'm getting emails or messages from different people wishing that they
knew this information earlier. And so I think we're only just at the cusp of like, it's really
gathering a lot of momentum that people demanding more knowledge be shared. And I hope that
eventually it's into something in the future. Yeah. And can you see or does it make sense to have these
more instead of separate standing offices or facilities, these things that are a lot more
collaborative where dentists and pediatricians and osteopaths and myofunctional therapists
start to work more holistically on patients instead of in their separate little siloed areas?
Absolutely. Because I think when it comes to mouth breathing, a lot of people think, oh,
there must be an obstruction. And the person that comes to mind is an ENT specialist, just surgeon,
who will typically take things out of the nose and the throat to improve breathing.
But just as important is looking at the outside framework of the airway, which really comes down
to the jaws, because when we don't have good jaw development or we have a narrow palate,
we're going to have a limitation of airflow. And this is when it becomes easier to breathe with
your mouth open. And then we need to look at the muscle patterns as well, because sometimes when
you breathe through your mouth for a long time, it becomes a muscle deficit where your tongue is
sitting low, when your lips become flaccid, and you're just not used to using your
nose. And so we need to look at the possibility of speech therapists and myofunctional therapists
to help restore those types of deficits as well. And there are all sorts of implications with
body posture. And there's a role for many different professionals to get the muscles working well,
to help restore nasal breathing and those jaw structures that are the framework, the good airway.
So yes, it is important that we all recognize these problems. With the lactation consultant,
we don't want them to just make sure that babies are feeding without pain or putting on weight
gain. They have a really good role in optimizing the muscles, because that is the foundation for
the way in which we're going to chew and swallow and grow our jaws. So really helping people understand
what is their role. I think there's a lot more multi-disciplinary courses and conferences now.
So I think that is really helpful to have more and more people on the same page,
really understanding that we need to work together to promote this integrative approach.
Yeah, I agree with that. So one part of your focus is also on sleep. And so you talk about
sleep studies and how they can help as far as evaluating and coming up with a course of treatment
for adults. But when it comes to children, my understanding is there are some limitations
that and expectations that maybe we could set for parents, because it's very different with
children. Yes. Yes. I think, well, there's quite a few limitations with sleep studies
in general. Okay. So probably the main things that I'd want parents to recognize or even adults,
when we get a sleep study, it offers a lot of information regarding sleep times, durations,
how many pauses in breathing, what are the durations, how much mouth breathing. But typically,
all that information gets summarized in a report and it comes down to AHI, apnea hypotnea index,
which is really a measure of obstructive sleep apnea. So that happens a lot with the reports.
But really, to get counted as having obstructive sleep apnea, you have to have a minimum of five,
10 second pauses in breathing as an adult per hour of sleep. Okay. Yes. Five per hour. And they
have to be 10 seconds. They can't be nine, they can't be eight. So it's pretty severe. Like even
if you have mild sleep apnea, it's severe breathing disturbance. And when it comes to children,
because of the recognition that children are very vulnerable to oxygen deprivation,
they just need to have one per hour to get a diagnosis of obstructive sleep apnea.
But the problem is that obstructive sleep apnea really is a severe breathing dysfunction. And if
we turn around and tell people that this report says you have no obstructive sleep apnea, therefore,
we cannot really propose any treatment. We're actually missing those really pre-care ser forms
or the more subtle breathing disturbances, which also lead to symptoms like snoring and
unrefreshed sleep and all the other symptoms with learning concerns, memory fog, because
it's very arbitrary cutoff. And so with children, children do not tend to get obstructive sleep
apnea. They tend to have more upper airway respiratory resistance syndrome, sorry, upper airway
resistance syndrome, which is sympathetic nervous systems are very intact. And they're more likely
to respond as soon as there's a threat to oxygen supply or a closure, increased resistance to
breathing. They're aroused from sleep. And so they do not get those 10 second obstructions.
But what that means is their sleep is very, very disturbed. Even if they snore, we know that
that is linked to increased risk of inattention, because it is actually really disruptive for
their sleep. And so it may be linked to signs like teeth grinding, they're all protective
mechanisms to protect against sleep apnea, but really they're linked to unrefreshing sleep. And
if we miss that, we are not going to be able to treat well those children that are suffering
with those symptoms. So generally speaking, if I have a child that comes in with snoring and
they're having daytime issues, I am not really going to refer them for a sleep study, because in
my area, it will come down to the AHI. I will address anything if I think they've got obstructive
tonsils or they've got obstruction of their nose. I will send them to an ENT. If they've got a
constrictor palate, I'll deal with that. If their muscles aren't working, their tongue is tied and
not functioning well, I'll look at doing that. So I'll try and address all of those risk factors,
because I think what's really important is that we are not just treating
obstructive sleep, making sure that children can breathe well through their nose 24 seven.
Got it. All right. So in your book, you give quite a bit of guidance about
airway-centric dentistry or airway aware dentistry, or two phrases that we hear a lot of.
How do parents identify that they have an airway focused or an airway-centric dentists?
And then how do these exams look different than just a regular dental exam?
Yeah, sure. Okay. So how do we identify it? Well, if you're coming in with a child,
you want to know if that dentist has any knowledge of snoring or sleep
breathing disturbances. Do they refer to an ENT specialist? Do they look at tongue ties?
Do they understand that? When do they refer for early interceptive orthodontics?
Generally speaking, if you are more airway aware, you'll be more prone to offer that as an option.
You don't necessarily need to wait until seven to eight. But then again, a lot of people have a
problem finding someone that will do the interceptive treatment before their age as well. I think one of
the really good questions to like teeth grinding, teeth grinding is a key red flag, one of the
strongest red flags in the mouth that a child is not breathing or sleeping well. So even trying to
see what do they think about that? If it's something that they say is quite normal, children will
grow out of that is probably not an airway aware dentist because that is actually what we're taught
in dental school. But if they understand that it could be linked to disturbed breathing, that is
probably one dentist that will understand it in terms of what is different. Well, my practice
is really focused on this type of thing. So I do spend like a full hour for a new patient
consultant and we'll go through the full entire history of their sleep really clicking down into
a lot of those type of questions. But for a general dentist, I think you want to hear questions like
does your child snore? You know, what is their behavior like? Maybe some of those questions
might mean that that dentist is actually interested. Stay aware. Okay. Excellent. So typically at the
end of every episode, I like to turn the floor back over to our guests and let you have the final
word and it can be anything you can talk to parents, you can talk to medical professionals,
you can talk to both if there's anything you want to reiterate. It's completely up to you.
Yeah, that is great. So I think, well, I think for parents to recognize a lot of people don't
realize that mouth breathing is a problem. You know, people look at their child with their
mouth open and think it's cute and full of character. Just to recognize that yes, it is not, it means
that your child is not able to sleep to the best that they can and it can play out with many different
issues. And when children have issues like ear infections or bedwetting or speech concerns and
all these other things that can be a symptom of poor breathing, we really need to address that
poor breathing. And it's not just an ENT surgeon. Sometimes you can get your child's adenoids and
tonsils or removed and have grommets placed, but we really need to recognize that those issues may
itself be a symptom. And we've still got to manage deeper if we want to address this problem
clearly. And so really looking at all the different aspects, whether it be their jaw or their
mouth function to try to optimize those things. And really the book is to help parents recognize
those red flags and give them some direction of what are the different paths that they need to
look at to ensure that their child develops their airway well. And the best time to find out more
about it is even when you're pregnant or during infancy, we may not be able to do everything
straight away, but to have that idea, I think will really empower parents to be able to ensure
that they're making the best choices for their children's future. I love it. And again, thank
you so much for being on the show and for sharing all of your knowledge. I will put links to everything
in our show notes. And just thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks very much, Rebecca, for having me.
I really want my network to be able to follow what you guys are doing as well. We do not need to
recreate the will in terms of developing resources. You guys have put out a lot of great stuff that
we can help share with parents as well. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks to today's guest,
Dr Sharon Lim, for sharing her medical insight and to each of you for listening to today's episode.
If you're new to our podcast, don't forget to subscribe. And if you enjoyed today's episode,
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Take care, stay safe, and happy breathing everyone.