Hi everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Airway First, the podcast from the Children's
Airway First Foundation. I'm your host, Rebecca Downing. My guest today is Kelly Richardson.
Today is a mom, wife, author, and clinical education specialist working to equip anyone
wanting to know how to improve their breathing and sleep quality. She has spent the majority
of the past 25 years in the dental industry, training dentists on expansion orthodontics
at Align Technology and Strahmann, TMD Solutions, and Dental Airway Education at the Dawson
Academy. She is trained in myofunctional therapy at the AOMT in breathing coaching
at the Boutako Clinic, International with Patrick McEwen. Her focus at SuperBreathers
is to provide airway awareness to parents, caregivers, teachers, and medical professionals
who can help identify and screen children who present with signs and symptoms of disorder
breathing and restless sleep. Her book, The Very Stuffing Nose, is available on Amazon.
You can find out more about Kelly on her website at SuperBreathers.com. And now, here's my
interview with Kelly Richardson.
All right. Thank you so much for being on the program today, Kelly. I really appreciate
it.
Well, it's a pleasure to be here. I appreciate you helping me get my message out so that
I can help other parents learn what I didn't know at the time, and I can hopefully be a
voice for them when their children are younger and they'll get some treatment.
Yeah, absolutely. And I will tell you that's part of what's so great about having you on
here is you're going to have both sides as we get into this and share with parents. But
you've been on the medical side of it, so you've got that background, but you have this
journey that I want to make sure that parents hear straight from you. So let's go ahead
and start at the very beginning. Let's talk a little bit about your background before
we get into your journey with Finn.
Okay, yeah, sure. So I've been in the dental industry for over 25 years, and this is an
industry I had interest in from high school. But before college, I worked for a dentist.
I was an assistant, and I just really love the field. But going through college, for
me, the business school was a much better fit than going through the science school.
So I ended up on the business side of thing, which is absolutely a fun side of the industry,
I have to say, because for 10 years, I was able to learn and talk to dentists about materials
and learn how the restorative process and all of that. But after 10 years, I was starting
with Invisalign, and they were still in there somewhat of a startup phase. And so what was
happening is the general dentist were starting to notice or starting to implement orthodontics
in their own practice. And I found that a lot of the GPs that were trying to implement it
were looking at it from the perspective of straight T. And I had this one dentist that
stood out, and I approached him and I said, Would you mind pulling some cases together?
I'll do all the work. I'll bring some doctors in and we'll do a study club. But bring your
cases. I'll write the presentations and we will present what you're seeing because the
message that he presented was more of a multidisciplinary how to implement orthodontics into a general
dentist practice so that the general dentist is able to upright the teeth or put the teeth
in the right spot before restoring them. And that was such a great message because instead
of if you have a tooth breaking down, you want to be able to figure out why what's the
root cause of it breaking down and then put the teeth in the right spot because the breakdown
in a lot of cases and what we found a lot of times because the teeth would be tipped
in. We were not asking why they're tipped in. We would just see a lot of tipped in teeth
and V shaped arches. And when you're treating with the liners or there's a lot of other
devices, I'm not specifically saying liners are the only way. But what I'm saying is that
when you can upgrade those teeth and put them in the right spot, then your teeth come together
in a way that fit together properly. You have a proper bite and then you can restore the
teeth to that bite. So we worked for seven years on this message. And as we continue
to improve over time, what this particular dentist was doing is he was finding that the
more he uprighted the teeth, that there was more space for the tongue. And then there
was space to align the anterior teeth. So this is an airway message. But at the time,
this is 2005 2012. Airway wasn't even on the radar. There was no nothing about airway.
But what we did notice is that it was the most conservative way to implement this technique.
And what this particular general dentist did was he kept going down the path and learned
later on how this was affecting the patient's airway. And he started to notice his patients
were feeling much better and went that path. Whereas I took a different turn at about a
year after my son was born, I had decided to take a territory that was not didn't include
him in the territory. I was in Manhattan, I've been traveling outside of Manhattan,
and I wanted to be closer to home. And so I ended up taking a different territory and
I missed that part of the message. So that's when that's when Finn was born. Okay, unfortunately,
right? Because I missed that. But I'm, you know, I look at my story and I'm just unbelievably
great grateful that I have a story to tell because we caught it early enough. But what
happened is my son Finn was born. And in our opinion, of course, he's perfect. And I, and
I am a working mom. So my husband and I both had jobs. We lived in Manhattan. It's not
cheap to live in Manhattan. It wasn't like I was going to take a year off. But I knew
for those three months that I had that I thought, well, breastfeeding is important. And I'm
going to, I'm going to make a go at it. But when he was born, he wouldn't latch well. And
when I mean he didn't latch well, it was a real struggle. So I thought, okay, somebody's
going to have an amnesty. This is kind of this happens probably more than not, you know,
about this. So I asked the lactation specialist there and they said, Oh, you're just doing
it wrong. Just adjust and keep pushing. And they kept me, they kept trying to give me
ways of physically moving him, but it just wasn't working well. And I was conditioned
in a way to think, okay, nobody's nobody in the hospital seems to have answers. And so
this must, I must be an anomaly. Because if this is something that happened on a routine
basically babies coming in and out of here, like, I see this all the time. So if this
is not working for me, then it's, it's me. It's definitely me. Sure. Something's going
on here. But after that, right? Right. And so but and I also thought that somebody would
have answers. And even within that week, I had no answers. But I'll go back the next
day after just trying to try my best. I took that bottle that was in his little bassinet
in the hospital and I stuck it in his mouth and he's like, he is just sucking away. He
is like trying to live here. I am trying a different path and it's not working. And I
just felt this huge relief that I can feed my child. So we talk, we talk to the pediatrician
about this. And again, nobody's alarmed. Nobody offers a multiple solutions or reasons why
it's just, oh, okay, well, he's losing weight. Here's a six pack of formula. And I'm like,
wow, this is great. Now, you know, I'm off and running. Sure. Right. But at the same
time, I was like, I bet you if I stick with this, it's going to work. So I I'm trying
to nurse him at home. And then pumping in between that, not much is happening there
either. So I was like, is definitely me. But I really went when at this for like two months.
Meanwhile, I'm also supplementing with formula. So this is kind of my two months within. And
it he started to gain weight, he was fine, but he needed the supplement of the formula.
And okay, so after about two months, I just said, this is, we're not getting very far.
Let's just go straight to that. And that's where we went. Yeah. So what I will say about
that is that when I look back, and I'm going to go back to when I was doing these presentations
with this GP in upstate New York, where we started to see all these teeth that were tipped
lingually. What I found out later is that the reason these teeth get tipped in lingually
is because there's nothing to keep them from tipping in. And when people or children or
just anyone in general, when the tongue is not in the roof of the mouth, and Finn's
tongue was not in the roof of his mouth, because it couldn't physically stretch it up there.
Nor did he know that it should be up there because by introducing a bottle, I'm teaching
him this tongue goes down. And then his cheeks, which have these muscles and these muscles,
when you push in, just like you're trying to drink us out of a medium sized straw, a
milkshake out of a medium sized straw. And you can really feel these muscles are called
the buxinator muscles. Well, these muscles are pushing in on the teeth and for adults
and or you know, for children that have posterior teeth. And when they get to the age of post
you, that's right where they are. Most of them have at some point. Yeah. But but you
know, you're not going to notice this as a baby. But what'll happen is, and I learned
this when I worked at the Dawson Academy, Pete Dawson, he was one of the fathers of occlusion,
dental occlusion, and he would say when teeth and muscles war, muscles always win, which
means that the teeth are going to go where the muscles tell them to go. So if there's
no tongue in the roof of the mouth, and your cheeks are doing all of the work. So for Finn,
he was sucking on a bottle. Then we went to squeeze pouches. Because when you have a tongue
tie, well, it was so great. I mean, look, there's veggies, there's greens. I mean, look, covering
all the baby. Right. And you can hand it to him on the go. Yeah. It's so easy. It's so
easy. But what happened is when he was in daycare, he, he choked on a raisin, because
he was a gagger, because he didn't learn proper tongue function, because he was tongue tied.
And he also had been taught low tongue posture. So that being said, I was really, really big on
these pouches. And the problem with these pouches is this is going to continue to develop these
cheek muscles, which are going to continue to push things in. And when the tongue is not in
the roof of the mouth, it's not going to develop out. Also, when the tongue is low, which the tongue
is attached to the lower jaw, then it pushes back when you sleep. So if it's low in the mouth,
and it's not suction to the roof of the mouth, it can push back. But imagine if it's suction to the
roof of the mouth at night, then it's holding the lower jaw forward while it's suction to the upper
jaw kind of like glue, and it keeps the lower jaw from falling back into the airway. So not only
was the tongue tie a problem for not being able to feed or breastfeed, it was a problem because
he had a recessed chin. And my husband asked the doctors, you know, why is this chin so far back?
You know, like, oh, that's normal, it'll come in. Okay, great. It's coming in. Good to know. All
right. We didn't know that one. So all of these already signs of disordered breathing or obstacles
to proper optimal breathing were already there. And I had no idea because when I was googling,
there was nothing there. And doctors around me didn't seem alarmed. We had so. And no one noticed
the tongue tie at this point. Oh, no one noticed the tongue tie until six and a half. Okay. So Finn,
our restless sleeper. And so even though I thought he was a good sleeper, we put him to bed
and he would sweat. So we got these diapers. And I mean, I got the best ones on the market. These
are the most absorbent diapers. That's what it says all over the package. He would wake up with
these diapers, saturated. They were so wet that they would be disintegrating. And there were these
little Orbeez balls, looks like Orbeez, tiny little balls that would be left in this diaper. And it
wasn't urine. It didn't smell like pee. His bedsheet had a circle of moisture around it.
And what I found out later is that night sweats is symptomatic of a couple of things, obstructive
sleep apnea, and inflammation in the upper airway. So this for sure is a behavior that is indicative
of that, which I didn't know. We just couldn't figure out why he was sweating so much. And so
he got to a point where he didn't sleep well, laying on his stomach. I don't remember what we
did. But when we were trying to put him to bed, he wouldn't lay down flat very easily. He didn't
have, he wasn't arching his back. He wasn't doing anything that would make us go, wow, that's something
we need to check out. He just wouldn't sleep. But he would sleep okay if we put him in his little
bouncy seat. There's these little inclined sleepers that you can put on the floor. So he could sleep
in that. So we ended up putting that in the crib. Because if he did fall out, even though we would
buckle him in, you know, there's, this is where you sleep and we would put him in here. So he seemed
to sleep better in that. Okay, so now we've solved this problem. And we've looked at, they always
say if you raise the bed or you put this wedge thing under the mattress, that'll help. But
then all of these situations, what you're trying to do is you're trying to accommodate
an airway that keeps getting blocked off. And what we know is that children are more sensitive to
the airway closing off versus an adult. So an adult can stop breathing for 10 seconds and
have tolerance for that. But a child will come as they, as that airway starts to close off,
it will move them and their body will continually stay in these, these lighter levels of sleep,
which keeps them from getting to the deeper levels of sleep, which we now know is, I mean,
what I know now know is where you get your emotional regulation, your ability to focus,
your ability to develop muscle, and the hormones that come in that tell you to shut off the water
works. So if he was a bed wetter, and that may or may not contribute to his sweating,
but all of those, when you don't get enough of that hormone in that deeper level of sleep,
then it's, you see all of the symptoms that we saw. So, so yeah, he was also a very,
he was what we called all boy, lots of energy, which we thought this is great, we love having a
boy, this is good. But he could spend an entire day in a New York City park, the entire day,
without running out of energy. And that's, that's pretty alarming, you know, there should be these
levels where you kind of need some downtime and all of that, but he didn't need that much. So my
husband and I would kind of trade off, I'd, I'd have my morning coffee and he'd take him to the
park and then he'd come back and I would bring lunch and then we would do these trade off things,
but he had a lot of energy. So we didn't think that was that big of a deal. We just, you know,
great, we're outside. It's nice to be outside in Manhattan because your apartments aren't usually
that big. So it was, it was good. But again, that is another sign of disorder of breathing
and not being able to get proper sleep. So he's got the extended levels of cortisol that have
just been coursing through his body. He's been in fight or flight his whole night, constantly
trying to stay alive. So, so, so we had that issue, which didn't seem to be an issue until we got
into pre-K. So when we got into the pre-K program, in New York, they had this, you know, sometimes
you have waiting lists to get into the pre-K program, they just introduced them in the school,
there was a block away from us, we got into a program that was an hour away. Just put us on
the list for the one down the street because two hours, two hour commute to get your child to school
was just not, it was just not a start or a finish. Right, there's a lot of short, yeah.
So, so we decided to wait and by waiting after about maybe, I don't know, mid-year they had a
position so they had a spot that opened up, someone moved and so we, he went there. And the teacher
started to notice that not only was this all boy excessive energy, it was being, it was a little
problematic. And so she wanted to meet with us and she got problematic as in it was, so it wasn't
problematic to her. They were like, we can handle him. It's just that we thought it was taking him
a little while to get adjusted. But ultimately in a school setting, you still have to be able to
sit quiet, sit still and focus. And so his inability to focus was part of it. And then because he
isn't able to sort of come down into this level where he can focus, then he, that it, what we,
what sounded to us like, oh, she's talking to us about ADHD, I mean, he's got ADHD, right.
So but she never said those words. And she was, her name was Ms. Jessica. She's one of the kindest
people I think I've ever met, especially when you're trying to gently tell you that your child
has some issues. So there's so many people along the way that have been just incredible blessings
that have spoken to us at the time. They may not have given us the right direction, but she never
said, well, we would need to put him on medication if he's going to come here. It was never that. It
was just your child qualifies for a program that a lot of parents want for their kid.
It's kind of like having a private school education in a public school. But at the same time,
we're thinking, gosh, why did we never really realize that he wasn't going to kind of fit into
the school setting in the way that all the other kids fit in. We just thought he just had a lot
of energy. You know, he's a boy. And we believe me, we are the parents that have learned a lot.
We didn't know much going in. We kind of just figured we'd wing it. And that was,
maybe we should have read some more books. Maybe we should have had some lactation specialists on
hand. You know, I would say if you're going to go and have a baby for the first time, maybe I would
take a couple of those breathing classes because I figured, oh, I can do that. But how can, however,
can it be? Well, that would have been helpful. And actually learning about breath, breastfeeding
before it happens so you can get ahead of it. So this kind of watershed, this, this
aha moment happened when you realize what's going on with them.
Okay. So this is where another sort of crazy thing happened. We decided, okay, that summer. And we
decided the teacher had told us that he would qualify for this program and she would go to
bat for him to be in it. So we thought, and she said there's a lot of people that
requested, but their kids don't qualify and ours did. So we thought, okay, we went, we went away
that summer to visit some family near a beach and we were at the beach and we're like, you know what,
maybe I was asleep Manhattan. Maybe it's just not the right space for him. And it's, it's maybe
it's just time to go somewhere else. So we ended up moving to Florida. And we found a nice little
school and we thought maybe that's just going to be better for him. And meanwhile, the other
symptoms that he had, he had constant congestion, he would clear his throat
every couple of minutes, if not every minute. And it, we, we were asking around for that. He
didn't have enlarged tonsils or adenoids, they scoped him. That wasn't a problem. And they had
also had us keep a diary of his diet, but nothing came up on that or to do some food elimination.
Now, what I will tell you is that the dairy issue, we had started to go top heavy in dairy,
because not only were we doing the squeeze pouches, because of his potential gagging issue.
We were also, it's also easy to give him these yogurt packs. And, and, yep, and cheese sticks
and all these easy things that we're thinking, oh, he's getting protein. This is great. Exactly.
The doctor wants to give him dairy. So he's building bone. Meanwhile, he's not building bone and muscle
as much or at least muscle because he's not in, he's not doing restorative at night. Exactly.
So that's when those hormones come out. He's also not the tallest kid in the class. He's more,
if you line them up by size, he's closer to the front. He had venous pooling. So we, that's
another indicator because if you're maxilla, your upper bone isn't moving forward because your tongue
isn't pushing on that bone. So that's another reason the tongue needs to be on the roof of the
mouth to develop a wide arch to keep the muscles from pushing in to push the teeth in and give you
a narrow arch and it pushes forward. So if your tongue is not pushing your upper bone forward,
then you know you're going to have a problem later. So that was another indicator that we
obviously didn't pick up on at the time. So we decided we are going to move, we moved to Florida
and to do this, we need to quit our jobs. So we quit our jobs. Right. Florida. Okay, great.
And so I'm spending a lot of time on LinkedIn and one night, and this is a, this is still probably
maybe six or seven months in to our move. Still no answers. He, again, I don't know if I mentioned
this, but he woke up on average three times a night. He would wake up and call for me. And I'm
always been the type that I can, I can wake up, I can help them and go back to sleep. And so
obviously that fragmented sleep for me was not ideal, but it wasn't, it wasn't as big of a deal as
it would be for some people that can't get to sleep because fragmented sleep is a very big deal.
But that said, he would wake up at the hard part is, is he's frustrated. So is he frustrated
because he can't breathe because we could hear noisy breathing. We knew something was going on
with the congestion, or did he have a nightmare and he couldn't articulate it. He was just
frustrated. And I would just sit with him, help him get back to sleep. And then it wouldn't be
too long before he'd be awake again. But he wanted to sleep and his whole little body knew he needed
this. And I had no answers. I mean, none. Which is apparent. I mean, that's, oh my gosh. Yeah.
And so, and even learning to ride a bike, we were at the stage where he would try to learn a bike,
but it took a while. And what I learned later is that when you don't get to the deeper sleep,
the, the information you learn that day, all of that is worked through in your deeper levels of
sleep. So if you learn to ride a bike, you can you can get the motion, the pedal motion. But if
you go to sleep and sleep specialist, you'll be able to tell you this way better than I am. Like
describe how this works. But what I do know is that it translate the that day learning. And it
puts it what I call little files. So it's sort of like it takes all of the information you learn.
And then it goes into your little brain section where it pulls out the file and cabinet and sticks
it all in the files. And then then you're like, okay, I'm all organized. My desk is nice and neat.
And I can start my new day. But for Finn, not getting to those other levels, he's just piling
it on his desk. And then new information just piles on his desk. And there's nowhere to reference it.
Because it's all there. It's all messy. And so he would a link, by the way, we've got an episode
with Dr. David Mackintosh. He does a beautiful job explaining that. So I'll put that in here.
So it makes a little more sense for people. That would be great. Because there's so many
specialists that can explain all of this. I just experienced it. So he. So yeah, so all these little
things. And also, we were going to OT occupational therapy for low tone, because he wasn't getting
that muscle development. So okay, this is another thing we were doing. We enrolled him in gymnastics.
And he was learning how to build up his muscles. But it was all in many ways because he wasn't
getting the muscle development that he would get in that deeper level of sleep.
And still no one noticed the tongue tie. No one had talked about how he was sleeping.
None of that had been brought up yet. Okay, we're now at five and a half years old,
or actually six years old at this point. And I am online looking and it's kind of late at night.
I'm looking through LinkedIn, still trying to find a job. So I would say maybe find a job
before you move. But anyway, but it was fine. It was a nice break that we had. And I had some
people that were like, just wait, we're going to have an opening. But what happened was I'm looking
on LinkedIn and this post comes up from this orthodontist, clear across the country in California,
never heard of him, have no idea how I'm connected with him on LinkedIn. Because I had
really never spent a ton of time on LinkedIn before this. And this post has, if your child,
and I literally cannot talk through this without getting emotional, because it's sort of like when
people say, you know, when Elvis died, you remember that moment? Yeah, Diana died, you know where you
were, right? Tell you this moment was it for me. I think if your child has these behaviors,
and these, these signs and symptoms, and I, and I, I got to reach out and find out that exact
what it said, but it described my son to a T, the restless sleeping, the hyperactivity, the
chronic congestion, I didn't really literally can't tell you what it said, but it was him.
And I'm sitting there going, Oh my gosh. So I, I'm like, I think this has got to be it. So
but of course, I don't know this doctor. I mean, I've never met him. And I don't know why I have
this post. I don't know. I don't know how I'm connected. But what it turns out that he said
in the post it says, then you should look at his sleep and breathing is could be sleep disorder
breathing. So I thought, okay, wow, why wonder if anybody at the ADA, it's coming up in a couple
of months in Atlanta, and I wonder if anybody's speaking on this. So I type in ADA meeting,
sleep, and there's one speaker, one presentation by the guy I had just spent seven years doing
presentations with for aligners. That guy was speaking on this. But at the same time, I'm just
so freaking grateful because I'm like, okay, I'm going to call him. So I call him the next day,
because the thing that was in the middle of the night when I saw this post, and I call him the
next day, and I say, Hey, this is what's going on with Finn. This, this, this, this, this,
oh, yeah, that's definitely disorder breathing. We need to take a look at him.
You know, like the heavens opened up the light bulb, a very, very, very big light bulb was over
my brain. And I was like, Oh, hey, so I go to the ADA and I learn as much as I can about this,
I learned that my functional therapy is going to be necessary. I get him evaluated for a tongue
tie, which obviously he had. Obviously, yeah. And so we, we get the tongue release and my husband
and I got our tongue released at the same time. Because it's in families a lot of times. Yes,
so not shocking that we both had this issue. And then I started his myofunctional therapy. So at the
time, zoom was not popular. Skype was, you know, you could Skype with people, but there were no myofunctional
therapists in Manhattan that I knew of. So with my background, I said, Well, I could take the course.
I mean, I know about this. So I went ahead and took the myofunctional therapy four day course and
learned how to do these exercises with them. And so we would do exercises in the car, we would do
them on the way to school. And then before, for about a month and an and a month after his
prenectomy, we, and it was a prenectomy at the time because people weren't doing the frenuoplasty
that they do now. But which is the doggy train technique where it's a it's a combination of
laser and a little bit of sutures if necessary, so you don't have as much scarring. So, but at the
same time, and in both cases, you really need to do myofunctional therapy to train the tongue. So
the tongue needs to be able to stay up on the roof of the mouth suctioned during the procedure.
So if the tongue can't stay up there to some degree, and that doesn't mean it's always going to be,
but in his case, his palate wasn't so high, he wasn't really a thumbsucker and he didn't have
a really high palate then. Whereas sometimes I know in Savvy's case, she was born with a high
palate with that high arch. Right, right. And that can also, you know, as you know, can push into
when you do have a thumbsucker or you are not able to reach the roof of the mouth with the tongue,
it pushes into the nasal cavity and can create more of an obstruction. So, but what we found with
once he was, that tongue type was identified, and the other big indicator was the mouth breathing.
You are listening to Airway First with today's guest, Kelly Richardson. You can find out more
about the Children's Airway First Foundation and our mission to ensure that every child has
access to screening, evaluation, and treatment of all children's airway disorders before the age
of six on our website at childrensairwayfirst.org. The CAF website offers tons of great resources
for parents, including videos, blogs, recommended books, comprehensive medical research, and so
much more. You can also join us via our Facebook support group, The Airway Huddle. The Airway
Huddle is designed for parents of children with airway and sleep-related issues. You can access
the Airway Huddle support group at facebook.com backslash groups backslash airway huddle.
Are you interested in becoming a guest or do you have an idea for an upcoming episode?
Then shoot us a note via the context page on our website or send us an email directly at info
at childrensairwayfirst.org. As a reminder, this podcast and the opinions expressed here are not
a medical diagnosis. If you suspect your child might have an airway issue, contact your pediatric
airway dentist or pediatrician. And now let's jump back into my interview with today's guest, Kelly
Richardson. So he was a mountain breather from birth because I had taught him by separating his,
by keeping his tongue low in his mouth, that with the bottle feeding, that he learned sort of that
low mouth tongue posture that helped it make it easier to breathe through his mouth. And also,
it can also just happen when a kid gets a cold and then they just default to the mouth breathing
and it becomes a habitual thing. So, but he did have constant congestion. He had a lot of inflammation,
but also what's been found is that mouth breathing is one of the biggest
problems in creating congestion in the nose. So when you're mouth breathing, you're creating that
localized inflammation, and that doesn't always mean it's creating, it's enlarging the tonsils or
the adenoids, but it can because the tonsils and adenoids are lymph tissue and they collect the
gunk coming in, whereas the nose has a different pathway. So the nose will clean it. And then
you have the nitric oxide that is actually an antibacterial and antiviral. So it's going to keep
a lot of that, the bacteria and the gunk out as well. So you've got two first lines of defense
in the nose. You don't have anything in the mouth, all this all dirty, dirty air come on in. And
that can create a lot of the inflammation to keep them from being able to breathe,
but through the nose again, and you have to push through that. You can't just all of a sudden say,
oh, I'm going to close my mouth and start breathing through my nose, especially if it's
been happening for an extended period of time, you have to write with it. So if the child can
breathe through the nose, if you have them close their mouth and they can breathe through their
nose for three minutes without distress, then you can push through with this habit of retraining
to strictly 24 seven nasal breathing. If they can't, then you would definitely need to
see what the obstructions are, which could be nasal obstructions,
adenoids and other things. So I certainly don't want to simplify it. But for us,
Finn started off even before he had the tongue release, he started off with a
breathing retrainer. So at night he would sleep with this and it took about a week for him to get
into the habit of being able to breathe through his nose with this in his mouth. I mean, it's
they're designed that several companies make them, but they're designed and your dentist,
you your dentist would fit them. But they're designed for the child to be able to pop it out
of their mouth if they're in distress. So after about a week, they get used to wearing these
at deep programs, the lip muscles, a lot of the stuff that you find in myofunctional therapy is
addressed early, some of the minor, not minor, but some of the things like deprogramming the lips
because the lips can be tight and push in. And so you decode program that and you can pull the jaw
forward a little bit with these devices. So it keeps him forward even if he doesn't have the tongue
section. And but most importantly, it blocks the mouth from mouth breathing at night because when
he mouth breathed that would mouth breathe at night, his jaw, his his recessed chin, that jaw,
that lower jaw would fall back in closer. It's already closer to the to the airway at that point.
So we needed it up and forward. And that's what these device did. So it was interesting. So
he was in first, no, it was in kindergarten, when we started this breathing, breathing retrain,
or we did it over the holidays, because we got got the device over Christmas time. And so he had
had enough of maybe a week or so of wearing this device when he went back to school. And the funny
thing is, at our school, the kindergarten teachers don't want the parents hovering, because, you
know, that's not good. You I mean, it's kind of like you got to separate, you know, the kid goes
here now, you go home. But when you have one, you know, kind of addicted. But anyway, so they
had always kind of created a healthy boundary between the parents. So my husband called me
because it was that that's the day he had taken him to school the first day after school, after
Christmas vacation. And he called him, he goes, Oh, the teacher, she didn't even just talk to me,
she tracked me down. And I'm like, she's what did she say? I mean, I think she's nice, right?
He's like, no, she wanted to know what we did with Finn. Because interestingly enough, she was
actually the assistant teacher. Okay. And when we had had our first meeting with the teacher,
the teacher, our teacher had said, Well, you know, he does have a lot of energy. And this is a
different teacher, different school, but she said he has a lot of energy. And the other teacher said,
but yet he seems tired. And we're like, huh, right, right. If you look at a child that's hyperactive,
that didn't sleep well, you're going to notice the tired, if you're astute enough. And she was like,
I noticed he's tired. And I thought, huh, I don't I know he's tired, but I don't notice it in the
activity. So you're used to it. You saw it every day. So yeah, this is who he is to us.
And he also would use to swing his arm a lot too. He had restless leg syndrome, which we were able
to kind of get that a little bit at bay with a little bit of some medication. But we tried everything
we could to not do medication. But he would constantly swing his arm. Actually, the restless
leg syndrome can also be in your arms. And so he would constantly move it. And it feels like
there's like something in his shoulder that he would have to if he by swinging his arm, it would
make that at least resolve it a little bit or address it, but it was always there. So we resolved
that. And that has a lot to do with the kicking when he would he would move a lot. We would also
hear the kicking, right, the thrashy one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he had these little this little
thing around his bed. He had a loft bed. And so it was like, you could hear this claim,
claim when he would move. And it was just because the way that all the slats fit in together,
there was little spaces. And so it could it's just sounded sounded loud. So we knew he was hitting it.
So anyway, so she had absolutely she tracked us down wanting to know what have you done.
I am seeing such a big difference. I am so curious what have you done.
And again, nobody's week, week, two weeks.
This was just a very early for a week for Finn. It was funny because he he was so ready for answers
that whatever we said to do, he was like, got it. So even though I wrote this book about
nose breathing, it's not like one of those things where for my son, you had to say,
okay, we're going to do this. And he's like, oh, what? No, it was not that. It was like
nose. That's it. I'm in exercises. That's it. Teach me will do on you want to take me out of
school? Fine. We'll do these in the middle of the day. He was so on board because he was he
wanted to see he was there and even though he had known he wasn't like the difference because
he had had this since birth, he was ready for a different kind of life really. So so yeah,
the other thing that I didn't mention that he had was the eczema, which is another sign. So he had
these little face rashes. And so we go to the doctor and they're like, well, use this cream. And we're
like, okay, he's just got needs this cream. But that's also another sign. But that was
yeah. And ever since then, so we decided to go with treatment with, you know, Kevin Boyd.
So I met Kevin Boyd at the Dawson Academy. And so we decided, well, he's he's our guy because
he was going to pull the maxilla forward. So we still so it's six and a half or really by the
time I met Kevin, Kevin, he was kind of closer to seven, Finn was closer to seven. And as you know,
we want to catch kids six and under. Absolutely. Yep. Thanks before six before six. But what
happens is up until nine and a half, this maxilla, this bone, the upper bone that houses the upper
teeth, you can pull that forward without it hurting or needing surgery. And and that's what we did was
Finn was getting expanders for the out to expand his dental arches out. And upright those teeth.
Right. You know, so okay, so we were doing this technique where there was the expanders were
going out, the expanders would come forward to but we were also he was also wearing a device that
pulls his bone forward called a reversible face mask, completely opposite of what I had as a
child, which was the headgear. I do not recommend a headgear ever. No. So I don't don't want there
to be any confusion about that. But we so he was sleeping in that he slept in that device for two
and a half years. And we really got that maxilla forward. So what we were doing during that time
period is we're pulling the upper bone forward. And and the Dr. Boyd could measure on a x ray,
how far back or if it does need to be done. So it wasn't like he was just like, Oh, yeah, I can see
some signs of symptoms. Let's do it. So he does some he does this with measurements. But we saw
the venous pooling. So if your facial bone is is back, it's going to push on the spaces that house
these little veins right here. And so you'll have this little venous pooling these little dark circles
under the eyes that will indicate that this bone is kind of pressing on that. So another indicator
that we didn't notice but was present in Finn, and also makes kids look tired too. So I mean,
it could just be that it could be that. But when you look back at photos, I mean, first of all,
the photos, I did a compilation of Finn's photos, going back to when he was
first year of life. And I had no problem finding open mouth posture. So he was developing a face
that was long. Or it is, we caught a lot of it.
Early enough to be able to do the expansion out. And if you look at my husband, my husband is
as has a wider face, he doesn't have that long face. And genetically, he had things going in his
favor that didn't the mouth breathing, the constant open mouth breath breathing did not affect his
facial craniofacial growth as much as it could another child from a different family. But we
also caught it early enough to be able to while his face is growing, and we were able to do that
and pull the upper bone forward. And so he has we even have on our website, or our
YouTube site, we made a video of Finn putting his reversible face mask on. Because if you look at
this, it looks like a medieval torture device. And if most people would say, I am not one prescribing
that. And two, the kids will never wear it. And three, the parents would be in shock and horror
to think they were going to put it on. Right. But for me, we're in. I think I'm like, what's it look
like? Great, let's do it. And so he would he put it on. And but this he's joking around in this video.
And it's so disarming. But it was because it's important for in my opinion, for littles to see
other littles doing something that they're being asked to do. So I mean, we tell them as parents
all day long what to do. And I mean, at this point, they just tune you out because it's like,
but really, when you have other kids. And so Finn also learned how to do the sailing nasal
rinse up and through his nose. Not a big deal. This is going to help me sleep better. I'm in.
So you've got to link to that. And I'll put all these, by the way, links to all of these.
Oh, thanks. And doing things. Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes.
Well, so the whole reason that we put all of these things together was because when it is so
visceral, that you can't find this content. And then it's extremely just almost shocks your soul
when you do find the answer. Like, yeah, from Bill Hanks post. And and really, it was probably
either Debbie Heng, who is an equal force behind what they're doing out in California at with
face first. I can't remember what their organization is, what they call it. But it's echo. Yeah,
we'll put links up to that thing as well. All of these people like had no idea all the way across
the country. They are changing my my kids life and changing our life in the process. Because when
you have a child that's struggling, and you don't know how to help them, you feel so helpless.
And you just of course supposed to be the parent that has answers. And I wasn't, I didn't have the
answers. So so we got in. So he put these videos together for his some of them, the one for the
nasal rinse, we did that for his buddy, because we were trying to get him to get on board with it
to because oh, okay, about this stuff. Playgrounds. And I hand out breather. It strips nonstop, then
wears a knee and breathe right strip every night. And he's still in we're still trying to get some
more lateral expansion with him. Because in our case, with going to Chicago for our treatments,
sometimes when the device doesn't fit as well, and you're not getting as much of the expansion
that you need, then it wasn't that he wasn't wearing it as much, it just wasn't a good fit.
So we've now gone to just run right back in the right. Yeah. So and that's what's what's so great
is that by all of these organizations who are teaching dentists how to do these, I've now got
a local doctor who is doing airway sleep and breathing, soggy trained, frenuoplasty and all of
that stuff. And she's just the most wonderful person, Dr. Dr. D. And so it's nice to have somebody
local that we can refer to instead of saying, Well, you know, we go to Chicago, you know,
right, right. I should also practice that with we've also not gone on a lot of vacations over
the last so it's not like I'm just telling everybody, look, you should just have enough
money to fly to Chicago. It's a sacrifice that we've made. But I mean, there is, for me, I happily
sacrifice a vacation. Of course. For this. So and Dr. Boyd's office is amazing. They're usually
accommodate Wednesdays or cheaper flight days. So we fly up, see him and then we fly back. We've
got a little restaurant that we go to, we go process. But it's like a day of it. Yeah. Yeah.
So this, this, this is what has led to your book that you wrote. Yeah, the very stuffy nose.
Yeah. Yeah. So the very stuffy nose was one of those things because not only did we was it memorable
that mouth breathing in Finn needed to he needed to be a nose breather. So if you're not,
if, if you have that mouth breathing posture, your whole face can grow longer and your chin can
grow down and back. And I'll show you, I've got the book right here. So this is the book. But
what's important about it is that my illustrator spent hours helping me hone in on the facial
posture of a child that is mouth breathing versus a child that's nose breathing. So this is a story
of Finn, he gets a stuffy nose, he realizes he gets a cold and he gets a stuffy nose. And then he
realizes if he opens his mouth, he can get all this air in and this is great. Right. After it's
cold, he just keeps breathing through his mouth because why not? It's big. It's wide. I can fit
lots of air inside. And so he is now a mouth breather and he notices that he can't smell anything.
And after a while, he notices that the stuffy nose has just not gone away. So he sits and he
thinks and this is on the page where he sits and he thinks, what you'll see here is that you have
a chin that is down and back. And what you may not notice, but a dental trained person will notice
that there's some venous pulling under those eyes. And when the venous pulling, when that bone is back,
it's going to push on that bone, that maxilla and it's going to cause you to see the whites of the
eyes underneath the colored part of the eye. So my illustrator did a really good job of differentiating
between that. And we tried to do the same thing here on this page where we're showing the difference
between the mouth breathing and the nose breathing face. So the one up top. The one in the cloud.
Yeah. This is when he remembers, I used to be able to smell things and now I can't wonder why that is.
And then the one down below, but his chin is not as down and back as it is in the other one. So I
kind of like to show that. And then we have in pretty much any mouth breathing pictures,
he's got a low tongue posture. So low tongue posture, venous pulling all these little things
that that a dental professional or a treatment coordinator could be able to show a kid and say
or show mom, dad caregiver. This is what or teachers because my heart is really in teaching
teachers because teachers are have a huge opportunity if they can just help kids understand that too.
And second grade and third grade that if they practice some breathing exercises in their
class, they can actually teach kids how to nasal breathe. And they can teach them how to bring
down the anxiety that someone when they're over breathing from maybe a conflict with another kid
or a quiz that they didn't think they don't feel like they're ready for or just anything maybe
standing up in front of class and having to say something. So sure. To me, I think that's where
it's just a general lack of knowledge that mouth breathing is is harmful. And so we found that in
talking to all these airway doctors, dentists who were treating everyone of them would say, well,
first we got to change to the mouth, the mouth breathing to the nose breathing, we got to address
the nose breathing, we got to get to the nose breathing. And that was never it wasn't ever
controversial. It's never there's any there's not anybody going well, no, wait a minute, I think the
mouth is a good way is the right way to breathe. Right. So it was like, okay, well, good, that's
not controversial. I'm gonna have push back there. As a parent, you know, with your background,
looking back now knowing what you know and what you saw. Yeah. Obviously we were all parents, we
spend, I don't know how much of our time for teaching ourselves thinking how much we messed up,
but you don't know what you didn't know. That's right. So now you're looking back, what kind of
advice having been through this and experienced all this? What kind of advice can you offer other
parents that might be in the same spot you're in that are having to advocate for help for their
child? Well, probably one of the best things now is on Google, you can find what you need to find.
So your website has the resources to educate yourself before you go and see somebody.
Because even after Ben had been diagnosed with a tongue tie, I went to a local pediatric E&T
here for something else. I can't remember what it was, but I went to see it and when I told her,
when she came in the room, and I said, well, we already know he's got a tongue tie, but I'm here
to show you to talk to you about this. And she goes, oh, tongue tie. And she said, oh, Ben, stick
your tongue out. And he stuck his tongue out and lifted it up. And she goes, oh, no, he's not tied.
With absolute authority, she told me my child is not tongue tied.
So I know he is. And of course, I don't say that, but I'm thinking if I was anybody else,
you would have stopped right there. I would have said, oh, yeah, well, great,
we're not going to get on the plane and go get that tongue tie done. Good thing.
I would not have known. So my advice. Again, you're back to you don't know what you don't know,
obviously. You don't know what you don't know. Doctors don't know. And they just don't know
that's hot. And it's not, I don't hold a grudge against anybody that didn't know this. I just
would say as a parent, there are things out there that there are sources and sites. So your site
being one of them, we created the SuperBreather site because for so long, I would stand in a
playground and I would tell a parent, well, Google this, oh, and Google this and read this book. Oh,
but you should do this other thing first. And so I put all of this stuff on Facebook. So I said,
all right, I'm just going to put it all on Facebook. And then what happened is my Facebook page got so
messy that I would be like, well, wait, go watch this Finding Conrad Egan video or go do this.
And I was like, well, they're not going to find any of this information. So we, and we also decided
that we, we now have the responsibility of being able to provide information and direct
anyone that reads the book that isn't in a dental office that just happens to find it's in our local
library. LinkedIn, I had a popular post about it. So people might buy it and now where, where are
they going to find information? So now we have a site that explains a little bit about breathing
and our story and then provides sources of where, oh, Mike, can you? Yeah, there's a lot of great
info and I will include the link to that as well because you've got some great info. You actually
had a couple of books that I haven't read and have since read because they were on there. So
we absolutely want to make sure we share that as well. Yep. Yeah. And I think what's so great is
that I just knew I didn't, I couldn't find this information as a parent. And so I just couldn't
be, I, the responsibility was on me to say, I am going to be that voice. And I don't, I mean, I'm the
voice for the parent, but I'm the voice for that little person. And to be able to offer
a hope to those parents and be able to direct those parents to get that person as early as possible.
So when people reach out to me, I'm, I'm just going to help you and I'm going to sort of fill
in the gaps and then I'm going to send you to the professional. Like you can talk to Kevin Boyd and
he can rattle off all the studies. You can listen to Patrick McEwen and he knows the studies. Well,
I've read them, but I can't always source them. And, and so it's, there's a community. But what I
would say is probably the most important thing is there is not necessarily going to be an airway
minded dentist in your area that's going to be able to help you. So you're going to likely have to
travel some distance to find them and be okay with that. Because you can't, and just like Savvy's
story, if you find out too late, then there's certain things you can't go back and do that aren't
surgical. So I would say take it very seriously as early as you can, and then make a couple of trips
and know that some of these airway doctors will work with you and also let them start there.
So let them quarterback everything because if they know that you have a tongue tie and they're not
offering it, they're going to know who to send you to instead of you thinking, let me figure out,
why I'm just going to go to this guy because he's down the street or I'm going to go see this gal
because she promotes it online. Because they're not always, it is starting to be a little bit of a buzzword
where sometimes you're going to find that if you go into an office, if you've armed yourself with a
lot of this information and done the research, you're going to be able to see through the ones that
say, oh yeah, well we do tongue ties, oh great, okay, tongue releases. Okay, well what my functional
therapist do you recommend? Oh, you know, we don't need that. Okay, not your person. Exactly.
So that's, you will know that going in and I know that that was not my ENT because she said
you didn't have a tongue tie. Okay, good to know. Thanks. Well, can we resolve this other issue?
And then I then I will go somewhere that we need to go somewhere else. That's right for us. So I
would just say that there's enough research out there for you to find out or if not, then
then reach out to those of us who can help you. I mean, I'm never going to turn down a conversation
with somebody that just says, look, you're the only person I found. I'm so grateful that you found
me. What do you need to do and who can I help you find? And so I've even started putting a doc
locator on our site with some of the more like, because these are the people that I would go to.
So knowing, I mean, at least that way I can say, well, there's somebody probably within your
geographic Southeast region. They might not be in your state, but they're close enough.
And they're, and you know, and they are getting better. I mean, you know, we've been putting
ours together. We also link out to airway health solutions, which has Dr. Ben Moralea and Kim
and Boyd and they're training across the country. It just takes time. It takes time to train everybody.
It does. It does. And that's the thing. As we continue to build, the exciting thing is it's
going to be, there's going to be more and more. And I would say there's going to, it's going to hit
a tipping point where a lot of doctors are able to offer these procedures. But for those of us,
for the kids that are, let's say eight and under, if you're seven or eight year old has this problem,
you got to get in early if you're going to start doing something where you can pull that bone forward.
Because after nine and a half, you can maybe get some. And what's cool is they find, well,
we thought it was this and now we can do more if you try a little bit more. But, but yeah, nothing
retractive. I would just say if somebody's steering you down the path of retractive for the
sake of lining things up, then making a nice, pretty smile. I wouldn't have anyone take any
teeth out of my son's mouth or even retract. I would just say we're going to either do some
restorative stuff or you're just going to be healthy and have spaces.
Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah. Because they need to breathe and I need them to sleep well. So.
Right. Right. And you said something earlier that, you know, when we were talking before the
show that is apparent, it's so overwhelming. You know, where do you go? When you find this
information, you're trying to keep it all in your head. I love what you said. Start with
the very stuff you know, let's just start there. And then when you're ready and you're not so
overwhelming anymore, let's move into, you know, James and ask, let's move into the heavy hitters
at that point. So you can get your footing first. It's, there's so much to it.
Well, there is. And I just met Shereen Lim who wrote Breathe, Sleep, Thrive.
And that book is unbelievably packed with the nuggets that I would have, would have really
benefited learning. Yeah. And I would just say to parents, these aren't, these are books written
for parents. They're not written in dental speak. They're designed to be able to educate you so
that when you do go in to see a provider that you have that information and, and I, and, and you
could take in some of those studies. We have our resources page that has studies. You have your
studies page. There's all these resources that, that, and I think that the more this is, this
more parents that go into these doctors offices with these research, because doctors want to see
research. They just don't want to hear that you read something on Google. It's, they need to see
research. But if you can give them that direction, then, then some will start to recognize after
they've heard it for that, whatever number of time from a parent, oh, I'm so tired of hearing
about this. I'm going to go learn about it. Then that's what's going to make the change because
parents should stand up for the right. You are the person that is, or the caregiver, or the
grandparents. I spoke to many grandparents about this and you are the person that can make this
happen. And it's not always going to be the first doctor that you're going to see. But we do have
our story in the back of the very stuffy nose that sort of explains the path we went down.
So that the parents can have a little bit more information on that. So it doesn't just leave
the parents with just, oh, okay, well, this is funny, a book about a nose. And that's so important.
My illustrator, that we did fun stuff because you can't, you're writing a book about a stuffy nose.
I mean, this is, if it's not colorful and cute, you've lost them at page one, like,
right, right. You know, this isn't a mouse finds a cookie thing. This is a,
I can get the stuffy nose and breathers mouth like, oh, yeah, let's pick that one.
But my illustrator did such a great job. And it is a great book. Yeah, I highly recommend it. We
got a copy out of your, you know, collaboration here. Totally recommend it. Absolutely. Well,
and I did, I did create on our website, we created a little habit helper, because I do
know that there's, I'll show it to you. It's, it's, it's like every day you, you scratch off one of
these little gold dots, and there's a picture of a lizard. So there's a lizard on every two page
spreads. And because kids tend to find these lizards, this lizard seems to be a lot more popular
than the cat. And I thought the cat would be really popular. But there's a lizard, a baseball,
and a cat on every two page spread. So there's something fun to look for. But we created these
only that we don't want it to sound like this is a simple thing. And for some kids hearing it for
the first time, like, whatever. So we wanted to make the habit process more fun to gamify it,
because otherwise, even if you just write it off, we've missed the opportunity to change that habit.
And the point of the book is to kind of really help parents understand, oh, there is a difference.
And then also for kids to want to read it enough times so that they, they realize in his little
mantra, I'll keep my mouth closed and read through my nose, I'll keep my mouth closed. If you just
like get them thinking that, then they're going to change that habit on their own and have fun with it.
It's half the battle. Right. Because we tell them to do it, they're going to be a little bit
resistant depending on how much we've told them that week. But it's exactly. Exactly.
But if they're ready, then it'll work. So at the end of every episode, I always
turn it back over to the guest and let you have the final word. And typically it's you can speak
to parents, you can talk about your journey. So I just completely turn it over to you.
Any final thoughts? I would just say parenting is hard. Yes. Yes. And I mean, we, I have probably
made more mistakes or at least as many as most. And I would say that at whatever point you find
yourself hearing this message, that there is something that can be done. And even for adults,
if you're an adult, if you're an adult that had this, I mean, I, I learned about breathing retraining
so that I would get better sleep. And now I get better sleep. And I don't think I, I don't think
I dreamed for probably 20 years. But now I use a breathy right strip. I do the mouth taping,
which is starting to build in its popularity. But you've got to keep that mouth closed so that
it doesn't interfere with getting into those deeper levels of sleep. And there was an article in Vogue,
which is very helpful because there is an article that where the writer was as a Vogue writer,
and she was just like, Oh, I was horrified that, you know, to hear that my husband was telling
people we were doing this. But then she was like, but you know, it isn't, it's important for parents
to understand that if they're a mouth breather to this isn't just for kids, this message is for
everybody. And there are procedures and they're not always max low mandibular surgery. There's,
there are ways where the, the, an adult can be expanded out. So a lot of really cool things
are happening that can help everybody. So this isn't just a child issue. It's just that when
things are movable at those younger ages, and you can really develop a face that breathes well,
then they're off and running. But if, you know, parents have had these issues to
hearing this in your child is older, you're not out of luck. You still have something don't wait
or don't don't never tell me and say, Oh, well, you know, he's 10. So I guess I'll just, you know,
give up. That's never not at all the message. There are things being done for all ages. It's
just ideal if you can catch it early and don't beat up on yourself because we all are learning.
Yep. We're all doing the best we can. We're just doing the best we can. Absolutely. Well,
thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your journey and, and all the best to Finn as
well. Well, thank you for all that you're doing because it is, had I come across your site,
boy, when my life had been different and there's plenty of people that that are their lives are
different because what you guys are doing. So I'm super grateful for you guys. Thank you.
Thanks again to today's guest Kelly Richardson for sharing her story and medical insight into
each of you for listening to today's episode. If you're new to our podcast, please don't forget
to subscribe. And if you enjoyed today's episode, leave us a review or comment telling us about
what you enjoyed the most. You can stay connected with the Children's Airway First Foundation
by following us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter or LinkedIn. You can also join us via our Facebook
Parents Support Group, the airway huddle at facebook.com backslash groups backslash airway
huddle. If you'd like to be a guest or have an idea for an upcoming episode, shoot us a note via
the contacts page on our website or send us an email directly at info at children's airway first
dot org. As a reminder, this podcast and the opinions expressed here are not a medical diagnosis.
If you suspect your child might have an airway issue or related sleep disorder, contact your
pediatric airway dentist or pediatrician. And finally, thanks to all the parents and medical
professionals out there that are working to help make the lives of kids around the globe
just a little bit better. Take care, stay safe and happy breathing everyone.