Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of The
Children's Airway First Foundation. I'm your host, Rebecca St. James.
My guest today is Dr. Mark Levi. Dr. Levi has over 30 years' experience as a dentist and over 20 years in craniofacial dental sleep medicine.
He's a member of the Australian Sleep Association, the American Academy of Dental Sleep Medicine, and the European Academy of Dental Sleep Medicine.
As a former sufferer of sleep apnea himself, Dr. Levi understands the problem from all perspectives.
He also has the technical expertise to provide the best customized and appropriate solutions to suit each of his patients' individual needs.
He has trained in the U.S. with many of the world's leading sleep experts and can often be seen on national television and lecturing around the world.
You can find out more about Dr. Levi at drlevi.com.au.
And now let's jump into today's episode with Dr. Mark Levi.
All right, good morning. I guess good morning to you, Dr. Levi. Thank you so much for joining us.
Hi, Rebecca. Hi. Happy, uh, good morning to you from sunny 6 a.m. Australia.
Nice. Nice. Yep. Still, uh, February 29th over here. So just the afternoon.
So I got, I got your call from, um, I got your call and you said, Hey, we want to talk to you, Mark.
And I thought, uh, I'm getting out of bed for Rebecca.
And I think it's a, to be able to, uh, uh, educate more moms and dads and disseminate more information about kids and, and really kids who, by the way, kids turn into adults.
Right.
It's a pleasure to be able to hang out with you for an hour and have a chat, Rebecca.
Yeah.
What can I do for you?
Um, and I'll make sure I'll put the links and anything we talk about in our show notes for folks. But, um, if anybody wants to check out your website, they can really get a good understanding of, of what you do.
But I thought it would be better if we had a conversation to talk about how I knew you said you started with adults. How did you end up, you know, focusing on children?
And what exactly do you do with pediatric craniofacial sleep medicine?
Wow. Good questions. How many hours a week? Oh, Rebecca, as much time as you want.
Well, I'm in a, I'm in America next next week. So maybe we'll just carry on and hang out. So, uh, come on.
Maybe we'll do that. Look, uh, I gave a lecture in California not long ago and I introduced myself.
A bunch of medical people.
I introduced myself as an oral real estate agent.
Okay.
Sadly, no one laughed. They were a tough crowd.
And, and so I like to think, I mean, I'm going to come back to this, but I like to think I'm just, you know, I've got a dentist degree in Australia about 100 years ago because I'm old.
And, and, uh, I've got a dentist degree. And so I'm a dentist really. I've just a little old dentist in the city of Sydney, looking over the harbor and the opera house.
And, and so I just tell people all day long, I'm in the oral real estate business.
But the real question, you know, is how did I get to where I got to?
And that's a good story. So when I was 13, I suppose I was still bedwetting a lot every night.
And, um, uh, you know, I had a lot of jaw problems, I suppose at 18 and, you know, I was a, uh, my parents weren't, um, educated or wealthy or, uh, so, you know,
we just blotted along. You just got on with life. But I was, I was really heavy, judy bedwetting.
And so, and then I had roaring asthma. I almost died as a child out of asthma, went to hospital a couple of times, rushed to hospital, not went to hospital, rushed to hospital a couple of times.
And so you get me at 20, 25, and I've got a dentist degree from Sydney University.
So mum and dad are proud of me. And then I get to 40 and, and picture this on, uh, on Venice Beach, California picture this on, well, it's a Boundite Beach, Australia.
I can run 10 Ks on the soft sand. That's an hour of running on the soft sand of the beach.
I'm weighing about 70 kilos, which I don't know if that is in stones, but it's pretty slim and trim.
And I go to the doctor because I've got a little bit of snoring going on. And my buddy says, Hey Mark, you've got this roaring Olympic gold medal sleep apnea.
And you know, you'll probably die, but we'll give you a, we'll give you a CPAP machine and, um, I suppose you'll be okay.
And so, uh, I drove back to the office, cried the whole way because I thought, what is this thing I've got 25 years ago?
Uh, and, uh, jumped on a plane about a month later to the US. And so I suppose I've got about, I've been going to the US for about 20, 25 years, I suppose.
Okay.
Um, and that's where I started. I started being a patient.
Uh, and spent a lot of time doing adults, been about 10, 20 years doing adults and, and being very clever at making mandibular advancement splints.
Um, so I probably wore a mandibular advancement splint for, I don't know, 20 years.
Because I wore CPAP for three years. And then, uh, and then after that, uh, I fell into kids about eight years ago.
And so that's my story. And so I want to make, I want to make a timeline date for Rebecca and then I'll sort of stop talking for a second, maybe have a glass of water.
But here's the timeline. I think we, I think we invented sleep.
You know, the scientists about 40 years ago, they remember the story. I think it was a Russian Jewish New York doctor and the kid had the MRI machine on and it started making a noise and they worked out the brain was busy.
And I, I think that was 1960, but don't test me. Don't test me.
And then, you know, the adult dental sleep, I think is about 30 years old.
And I like to think the children's stuff's about 15 years old.
And so the reason I say all that, and my dates might be wrong, but you know, I've got a lot of patients, you might have them in America, Rebecca, where they talk to their phones.
And a lot of, a lot of patients that have those electric cars that don't take petrol.
And years ago, people had mobile phones.
And so changes. So what I tell every single solitary patient that sees me.
And we see people that fly in an hour to see me, not because I'm smart, just because there's no one around is because is that I've had a long story of skin in the game and I've got to fix my grandkids because of epigenetics.
Right, right.
And, and the world changes and what we know in the last five or 10 years is different to what we knew 25 years ago.
And so what we did 25 years ago that was sort of normal acceptable is no longer normal and acceptable.
And so I'm pretty passionate about the fact that we need to get all the kids looked at.
That's pediatrics.
That's all I do. I do 90% pediatrics these days, kids and about 10% adults.
Very good at adults.
Hard work.
And, and, and we need to fix, we need to help the next generation so that they don't turn into Mark Levi's at 40 years of age.
Does that make sense, Rebecca?
That absolutely makes sense. That absolutely makes sense.
And it's interesting because we do talk on here a lot about several things, right?
You don't know what you don't know. So as parents, we didn't know we've missed all the signs.
In the medical field, it wasn't talked about 10, 15, 20 years ago. So we've missed a lot.
And I think we're all so passionate about the children, because if you can fix it with them as to your point, they don't end up like the rest of us with these conditions that could have been treated.
Correct. I mean, why, why are you talking to me in Australia? This is a dumb ass question.
I mean, I'm just, you know, you guys, you guys all think I'm in Austria or somewhere.
You think we've got kangaroos dumping down the street.
I mean, I talk to America every couple of days or my pals in America and, you know, why do you think you're talking to me, Rebecca, in Australia?
What's your story? Why, why are we talking?
You've got, you've got some of, you've got my best heroes in America.
You've got my absolute Olympic heroes living in America. Why talk to me?
Well, because you are one of the best. And I'll tell you, we've also spoken with David McIntosh and Sharon Moore.
We love Sharon Moore. This is a global pandemic. It is everywhere. This is not an American issue.
This is a global issue. And we have talked to guests from all over the world because it is going to take all of us.
And you have to take the information from the best all the way around the world and put it together so we can figure out how to handle this.
That's why I'm talking to you.
Yeah. Touche. Touche. Touche. You know, I tell parents, parents often come to us and, well, we start with a consultation for kids and we muck around with the kids and we laugh our head off and we poke them and we have a laugh and kids think we're silly and so is my four year old granddaughter.
She told me not to be silly at her birthday party. Grandpa, can you, is grandpa coming? Tell him not to be silly, mummy. So four years old.
So the mums are amazed. Amazed.
When they tell us a 10 minute crying story, they don't understand why we go, oh yeah, that makes sense and that's normal and we hear that every day and yeah, okay, well, let's turn it around.
And so they don't cry. Well, they do cry. They do cry. And I'll tell you why they cry. They cry because it's the first person that's listened to them for more than a six minute appointment.
The first person's actually said, well, we hear that every day and we see that every day and we know why and we can turn it around. And that's not because anybody in my office is a, you know, superstar.
It's just because that's what we do every day and we hear it every day and we want to turn it around every day.
And so let me tell you, Rebecca, what we hear every day because it's, it's, it's, I always say what you said.
90% of my medical dental allied health world.
90% I say no statistical data behind it.
Don't know what they don't know yet.
I don't know if that's right, but it sure feels right based on what we've experienced and we hear from parents, they're just looking for validation.
They go into the pediatrician and they say, no, that doesn't exist or they'll grow out of it. So 90 is probably a pretty good guess.
I saw a patient last week. I'm going to give you one example and I'll give you a second example. But so I looked at it because I grew up on sleep tests.
We, at one stage we had three offices and about 50 staff and I was with a lung doctor and I got published in Europe in the sleep journals.
And so, you know, that's where I started with sleep testing. So there's mom chasing this sleep test she had done for this little, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight year old.
And so I looked at it and I read and I knew, I knew who'd signed it off and, and it said mild sleep disorder, breathing or mild sleep acne.
And then the treatment under underneath said watch and wait.
So I said, I said to the mom, I said to the mom, do you know what this means? And she said, what does it mean, Dr. Mark?
And I said, what means you child's not breathing properly? And she said, well, isn't it mild sleep after a mild sleep disorder breathing?
And I said, and this is a big important thing in my office, Rebecca, we don't use labels. I don't see the point of using a big label.
I don't see the point of using a word like sleep fragmentation or upper airway resistance syndrome for a 35 year old woman that's got neck, back,
anxiety, libido problems, grinding a teeth, waking up feeling lousy and struggling to get through the day.
Why the heck would you want to call that upper airway resistance syndrome when you just tell up that her mouth's not big enough.
She's breathing through a one bedroom apartment, not a six bedroom mansion in Malibu and that she's not breathing properly.
Why do we have to use labels? Anyway, that's just a little pet hobby of mine.
So this lady said to me, so I said, what's she said, what's it mean?
And I said, well, it means your child's not breathing. She goes, is that bad?
I said, I don't know if you want him to live. It's only bad if you want him to live.
And the doctor said, wait and watch. And I said, well, he's waiting until the child gets a lot, lot, lot worse.
And then I looked at the, I looked at it, I took my glasses off.
And I said, do you think I should be driving on the road without my glasses?
Or do you think I should wait till I'm blind or I crash the car?
And she said, well, you need glasses on to drive the car.
And I went, well, I've had lots of pairs of glasses. I mean, I'm not waiting for it to get worse.
And so that was, that's my pet hop. That's a pet peeve.
And just to break up what I'm ranting about, let me show you one or two slides.
Okay. One sec.
And we hear that a lot too. A lot of parents, that's just their frustration is they get a lot of, they'll grow out of it.
Or let's just watch it.
No, they don't grow out of it. They turn into Mark Leibar. Give me a ring and I'll actually on my, on my website.
On my website, Rebecca, I don't know why I did it. I wrote a really, really long bio. I'm not sure why.
I've done some TV. I've done a lot of TV. I've done a lot of this and a lot of that.
And I've lectured around the world and, and I just get off in the kids.
Otherwise, they'd be sailing three times a week, four times a week.
We get a great heart in front of us and I'm getting to be, I'm getting to, I'm not old, but I'm, I'm old.
And so I just tell my, I'm only turning up for the kids so they don't turn into me.
And otherwise I'm sailing three or four times a week.
And so, and so, no, I lost that train of thought because I was laughing to myself so much.
I apologize, Rebecca. Forgive me. Forgive me.
That's okay.
Okay. So let's go back to work.
Okay.
See, see, can you see this slide on the screen?
Yes.
So we show the mums this.
So this is a kid I saw, this is a kid I saw last week.
Now remember on a zoom and I'm talking to America and, you know, we're not having a consultation and I thought I'd throw some slides in just to show mums and dads, a little bit of context and a little bit of visual.
So, well, we sing a little song here because there's, I don't know if I can sing for you.
It's too early in the morning. Eyes and nose and lips and chin, chop teeth and bottom teeth and tongue.
I can see an airway, see an airway and a spine as well.
So, so we sing the kids a song, but see this airway here. That's red. Okay.
It's made to be bright green.
Right. If you look at the numbers, it's meant to be 24,000 units, 2400 units.
And this airway is, I don't know, 50 units. I mean, it's meant to be bright green.
But there's a worst one I saw this week. I saw a worst one. Where was, where's my worst one?
So share the screen mark.
I don't know if it's interesting to you, Rebecca, or whether you've seen it.
It always fascinates me, especially when I see those and they come from a place of wait and see. It just, it astounds me.
If you give me five seconds.
I'm very, they tell me I'm good at what I do, but I'm not good at it.
So, okay. So, you know what was good about COVID?
What?
Zoom.
Yeah, everybody.
We do so much zoom now. Now, can you see, can you see that on the screen or not?
I can.
It's another kid. This two kids in one week. Now, this is a part to breathe through. Okay.
Right.
This way till mom and dad, we're talking real estate here. Remember, I'm an oral real estate agent.
And how, you know, how you meant to get air through that, through that, through that point, through that, whatever that is, whatever that is.
And, and you wonder why, and it says that I know for a fact, this is for that 5000 units.
And I know for a fact that it's meant to be 15,000 units.
I mean, how well I would have done a change. So how do you, that's just terrible. Now, because I'm on my computer.
And I've pressed a button.
Can you see that class one inclusion there?
Yes.
That's a normal 12 year old with about a 4045 millimeter maxilla.
Tethal vertical lined up midline. No gummy smile. No crowding. That's mother nature. We never see that anymore. We see one of those a year.
The first person that has said that.
Sorry.
You're not the first person that's come on and said that Dr. Moralia has actually said these unicorn children that he just rarely sees.
Yeah, well, that's not good.
Now, how do I reverse.
Mark, what else have I got here? What have I done?
Hang on one sec.
And I've got to get out of this and I don't know how to. So I'm looking for the exit button. It must be an exit button somewhere.
To lead.
And what do I do that?
Okay.
I apologize. You'll have to cut this out. Oh, look at that. Anyway, wow, I must have put that on the screen.
Look at that. Can you see that on the screen Rebecca or not?
Yeah. Yeah. So the trachea looks so tiny right where I guess what is that the tongue or the teeth are coming back into it and then it just opens up wide.
Are your are your mums and dads familiar with this or do you want me to explain it?
No, explain it.
Please do.
Okay. Okay. So that's your eyes.
That's your nose.
That's your top tooth front. That's your lips and your chin.
So that's the front of the face nose, lips, chin nose, lips, chin with Mr. Rebecca.
I am.
And then there's a tongue there.
Okay.
And then behind the tongue is an airway to put air down there. And if you don't get air for I think it's three or four or five minutes to going to die.
And so that's the pipe. There's only one pipe in the whole body to get air down the lungs. Only one pipe. It starts around about here somewhere. Okay.
So don't get complicated with tonsils and adenoids and don't get complicated with the nose and don't get complicated with the mouth. Just don't get complicated.
Keep it really, really dumb. Keep it really, really dumb in my office.
There's a and we went to the hardware store, you know, your whatever your hardware store schooled over there. We got bunnings over here.
And I bought a bit of plumbing pipe. Okay. And I hold it in front of the patients about the size of an airway. It's about that long.
And I say, look, if that pipe doesn't work, you're in trouble. And you know who I love. I love my plumbers and my tradesman.
And the reason I'm dwelling on this is because parents, parents look at this and go, well, that makes sense. That's not complicated.
My child hasn't got some weird disease. My child hasn't got cancer. My child hasn't got some label. My child just can't breathe.
And they go, um, and why and what and how do you reverse it and la la la. But that's that's a really cool slide from a CBCT to show a parent.
Look, I mean, this, this is it, we could take this x-ray 10 times in 10 days and it probably will change a little bit.
But it's still basically, that's where you're up to, you know, that's where you're at to. So let's get, see if I can get out of the screen.
Because I'm having a problem getting back to you, Rebecca. I've lost you totally. So we stop for a sec.
Okay, I've got another screenshot there. We're going to have to stop at some, you're going to have to edit me, Rebecca.
That's fine. Oh, that's fine.
There's one of my favorite slides. I like this kid. Williams, a great kid. He's a great kid.
So eyes, nose, lips, chin. You with me still? I am.
And so there's your, there's your pipe without color. So top tooth, bottom tooth, chin, tongue.
Is there enough space in there for the tongue to sit? You know, I'm an oral riddle stat agent.
Is there six bedrooms? Is it big enough for the tongue or is, or a three kids mum and dad living in a one bedroom studio apartment?
And is that airway pipe going to work properly? Okay.
And that, and that, that's, that's tiny. That's 3.9 is a pinch. That's just tiny. That's just, and I want to, I want to teach you something with a lady named Linda Oistram out of, out of Sweden.
They did a research paper in not 2000 and 2016, I think. And so see that dot there. Can you see that dot there? Yes.
That's the end of the bone. I think it's foramen magnum. It's a, it's a bone. Okay. That's a spine.
And, and see that dot there. That's, that's soft tissue. That's the wobbly bit at the back of the throat.
There's a bone at the end of the, that's the top of the hard pallets. That's the top of your mouth. That's the nose.
So there's a bone that ends there and a bone that ends there. Okay.
Okay. And Linda will tell us that if we make the oral real estate bigger, bigger, much bigger inside the mouth, that the space that that distance from there to there will increase.
Okay.
Now that is the coolest research in the last couple of years to make us all get excited.
Yes.
That we tell, we tell a mum and dad, we're going to mark around in the mouth.
We're going to shove stuff in the mouth that looks like a, looks like a dentist or look like an older dentist or looks like, you know, someone like that.
And, and we can make, we can make real estate in the nose, the sinuses, even back here. There's a domino effect of what, what, what gets bigger. Did that make some sense?
It does. It does. And, and making it bigger means you're growing it forward. Correct.
Say that again.
Is, is the main focus to grow it forward to pull the jaw and everything forward.
I'm going to say I'm not smart enough to answer that question.
I'm going to say this because I like to keep it simple.
I like to say, we're just going to, we're just going to grow.
So, you know, there are much more scientifically smarter people you can interview than me.
I'm an outcome guy.
And I just want to see the before and the after.
And I want to see the after and I want to hear the after.
You're listening to Airway First with today's guest, Dr. Mark Levi.
You can find out more about the Children's Airway First Foundation and our mission to fix before six on our website at children'sairwayfirst.org.
The CAF website offers tons of great resources for both parents and medical professionals.
Visit our parents portal, clinicians corner, resource center and video library to see for yourself.
We also encourage parents to join the Airway Huddle, our Facebook support group, which was created for parents of children with Airway and sleep related issues.
You can access the Airway Huddle support group at facebook.com backslashgroups backslashairwayhuddle.
As a reminder, this podcast and the opinions expressed here are not a medical diagnosis.
If you suspect your child might have an airway issue, contact your pediatric airway dentist or pediatrician.
And now, let's jump back into today's episode.
So you asked me a question, Rebecca.
And you asked me an intelligent question about whether I'm moving the jaw forward and growing it forward.
And here's what I said to the mums and dads.
I said to mums and dads, I'm an oral real estate agent.
And I said to them, I just want the top jaw to grow.
I want the bottom jaw to grow.
I want the nose space to grow.
I want the sinus space to grow.
I want the tongue space to grow.
I want the teeth space to grow.
And I want the airway space in front of tonsils and adenoids down to the airway to grow.
And so I just tell them I want them to go from a one bedroom New York loft studio apartment with five children to a six bedroom mallet.
Well, not even.
I want to ranch in Texas with lots of a big house with six bedrooms and a heliport and a triple garage swimming pool in a tennis court.
There you go.
And they understand that language because I said, you just don't, this kid just does not have the space.
So then they say things like, well, what's the problem?
Or is it the nose or is it the tonsils or, oh, it's just the tongue is it?
And I like to keep it really, really dumb.
And I say, I say no.
I say it's the cranio facial respiratory complex.
And that's the whole thing above your shoulders.
Yeah, everything.
So the thing above your shoulder.
So the thing above your shoulders is the thing that helps you breathe.
And it's a it's a multi factorial complicated little thing.
It's about our biology.
It's about tongue ties.
It's about freedoms.
It's about tissue.
It's a it's about weight.
It's about posture.
It's about breathing.
It's about real estate.
It's about bone size.
It is multi factorial.
So does that help you, Rebecca?
It does.
So I tell you what, go.
Yeah, no, go ahead.
I got, I've got two stories for you.
Okay.
What's the common?
What's the cause I'm, I'm, I'm trying to relate to mums and dads.
Okay.
So I'll tell you two stories.
I'll tell you a couple of stories.
Number one, they walk in the door.
We always, we talked them on the phone.
We consult with them.
I'm trying to use fingers.
We talk on the phone.
And screen them.
Because a lot of them are flying in to see us.
I mean, you're going to show them some respect.
You then do a consultation.
You then do a lot of metric measurements.
You then go and talk to the parents.
That's four steps so far.
And I still haven't done anything.
Right.
And often the parents say somewhere along there, well,
what's it look like at the end?
What do you, you know, what do you do?
What, what's it look like?
And I say to them, well, I've got a dental degree.
So I'm going to shove something in your kid's mouth.
And I say, the girls had me saying that because I'm not allowed to say that in
the office because, you know, I get in trouble,
but I'm just going to shove something in their mouth.
And they say, really?
Is that awful?
And I go, no, they say, is the kid happy?
I go, is the kid happy now?
So you look happy now?
Yeah.
Well, we're going to give him happy.
And they go, but what do you, what are you putting in your mouth?
What's it look like?
And I go, well, I don't know.
Plastic, metal, fixed, removable, small, tall,
made in America, made in Australia.
I don't know.
I've got a toolbox.
And they go, well, don't tell me what it's going to look like at the end.
And I go, no, I haven't got a magic crystal ball.
All I know is that I'm going to do a couple of steps to do my homework,
to work out what's wrong with your child.
And then I've got to look in my toolbox, have a think about it at six o'clock in
the morning and work out a strategy that in a, I don't know, month or a year
or whatever will help your kid.
And she goes, they go, well, how long does it take?
And I go, well, I've been known to fix bedwetting in two days.
They go, really?
Well, sometimes I've been known to have teachers in six weeks say,
what's that child eating now?
The child's 100 times better.
I've been known to have children wake up in four weeks,
bouncing off the wall, going, mummy, I've got more energy.
And I say, and I've also got other kids to take a year and a half to get better
or they don't.
So every child's different.
Yeah.
Every child's different.
But the common story, which is where I started in my head,
the common story I hear every day is the mum looks at the one year old,
the four year old, the five year old, the six year old and says,
my child's not thriving.
It's very common.
My mum's now.
They then go to the, we call a GP, a general doctor, the general doctor guy,
not the pediatrician, the general doctor guy.
Maybe he sends them to a pediatrician, maybe not.
From the period, from there, they go to the ear, nose and throat guy.
A lot of my guys will then send them off for a sleep test overnight.
They then go back to the ear, nose and throat guy.
Remember the child's still not thriving.
And the mums and dads are driving around town from appointment to appointment,
spending money.
And then they get the tonsils and adenoids or something chopped out,
which I'm okay with generally, but not every single solitary child in the world
should have the tonsils and adenoids chopped out or whatever they chop out.
There's a time and a place for all of us in this circle, all of us, all of us.
And so from there, the mum goes away and maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't.
And a bit doubt, maybe it doesn't, maybe it helps a little bit.
So they then go back to the ear, nose and throat specialist and then they get,
they go off to an allergy doctor and they maybe spend a year at the allergy doctor
and then they're still worried about little Johnny.
And so from there, they might go back to the ear, nose and throat guys and say,
what do you reckon?
And they go, well, maybe we should do some more surgery.
And at the same time, the dentist is saying,
I wonder if we should pull some teeth out and put some braces on
because I think little Johnny's teeth don't fit in his mouth.
So we hear that story a lot every day and lately it's getting, it's bothering me lately.
And so one of the reasons I'm talking about it on your happy little American podcast
or global podcast, I apologize, is because mums and dads need to know that that's common,
but not normal.
Not normal.
Common, but not normal.
And so that's not okay.
And so that's a common story we hear.
I'll give you one more story that I really love your people to understand in here.
It's about labels, Rebecca.
Okay.
I want to tell you about labels.
I want to tell you about our real estate agent.
I want to talk for hours.
I don't know.
I think I need a coffee soon.
You know, it's cracker dawn here in Australia.
I know.
I only got out of bed for you, Rebecca.
And your wonderful audience that listens to your wonderful work at CAEFF.
Wonderful work that you do at CAEFF and hanging out with Airway Health Solutions
and all the wonderful heroes of mine around the world that you collaborate with.
Very credit, you know, work, work, work, work.
So very impressive.
Thank you.
So I was going to tell you about labels.
Well, I think it's important people understand that up here, they told me at 40,
I've got the worst sleep apnea they'd seen in forever, forever.
And so they gave me a label.
I could go back to the office and go, oh, I'm so famous.
I've got roaring, severe, obstructive sleep apnea.
Let's go look that up on the, there was no Google 100 years ago.
Let's go look up and see what the heck, what the heck I've got.
What the heck have I got?
And so, and I cried the whole way back to the office because I'm my own stuff.
I didn't expect I didn't take someone with me to hold my hand.
And I'm a 40 year old man and I'm thinking, oh, this will be a nothing.
But this will be a nothing appointment.
So whether you're child and I'm going to go up this ladder, you ready to go up the ladder?
Yeah, up the ladder.
Yeah, you ready?
Yeah.
They're all the same.
They're all, all the labels are the same.
They all mean lousy breathing.
Now, I don't know how you say that in American.
I don't know how that you say that in French or Italian or any other language you're translating to.
But I just want to use the language.
It ain't big enough to get enough air to go down the pipe.
And maybe you should interview some of my dads that are plummets
and builders because they just look at me and go, well, that's absolutely damn obvious.
That's just, if I did that building, my building, it would fall down.
And so mouth breathing is not okay.
Right.
Snoring is not okay.
Nope.
Gurgling, snoring noises is not okay.
Fly trap in the back of the car with the mouth wide open.
Well, that's not really a label, but I've thrown it in for the heck of it.
Fly trap with the mouth, the head back and the mouth wide open.
Made in the car seat open.
Yeah.
We call that fly trap.
Upper airway resistance syndrome, sleep, fragmentation, obstructive sleep apnea,
or just plain old sleep apnea or plain old apnea.
They're all labels and they all are labels that go, oh, you're not breathing very well.
And so I'd like the mums and dads because I mostly do not to, no, I don't.
I do four to 12 year olds, four to 15 year olds.
That's probably my box.
I just use the simple term.
So the mums and dads can go home and go.
So we were to grow this kid.
So we get air down there.
And then there's Dr. Mark Guy.
This Dr. Mark Guy who's obnoxious, loud, passionate and waving his arms around because, you know, he's so passionate.
That Dr. Mark guys told me that all he does at work all day.
All he does all day at work is make jaws grow.
And it's actually called the magzilla and the mandible.
And that Dr. Mark Guy in his office when they go home to the husband or whoever they, the mum, I don't know.
They can, well, this guy does, he told me is, he just mucks around makes jaws grow.
And I don't know, it turns on the epigenetics or whatever he does.
Okay.
And then they say, but what about all the symptoms like kids got?
You know, what do I do?
And I go, I don't know.
I'm not in the symptom department.
That's another department.
But guess what?
If we do that and I hold this piece of paper, normally that gets better.
Yeah.
How many symptoms would you like me to put on the piece of paper?
There's only 50 there, but I'll give you another 20.
If you've got time for me to write it out and I'll, I'll bill you more because I've got to write all those symptoms down.
It's exhausting.
So you want the symptoms to go away?
Or do you want, what, what do you want from my life?
And so I'm very passionate about mums and dads understanding what we're meant to be doing and why.
So, but the other label that mums and dads should be aware of is the, the ADHD label and the ADD label and the ADD label.
And the, there's a lot of labels in that box.
For that matter, when I talked, when I, it's quite funny.
You talk to a child, you talk to the mum, you write notes in a pen because I use a pen.
I apologize.
I still use a pen in my hand when I'm consulting.
And the mum goes, oh my God, that sounds like me.
And I said to the mum, well, where do you think the kid got the problem from?
And so the labels of mental health and ADHD and all these other hyperact, there's lots of labels, lots.
And I'm not, I'm only a dumb dentist.
I'm going to, I'm going to medical degree in Australia.
I'm just a dumb old dentist.
My job is not to diagnose and look at all these things.
My job is to look at underdeveloped jaws and have an airway focus.
And maybe I should have mentioned the word airway every three minutes in this webinar.
Maybe every three minutes I should have said airway focused, airway focused, airway focused, because nothing else matters.
Airway focus is the issue here.
And, and, and so there's a great lady.
You probably know Karen Bonnock in the US.
Oh yeah.
And Karen's a poster girl.
You know, she's famous in my office.
She's a poster girl for ADHD.
We got a, we got a whole poster of hers and the photo up there and a screen.
No, I'm not a kidding.
But she's a celebrity in my office and everybody knows if someone wants to give your child the label of ADHD, then has anybody ever asked a question about the airway or breathing or sleep?
Airway breathing and sleep.
Has anybody asked, we made a form actually for the doctors.
A 22 question, two minute form screen to test for, hey, here's a quick question for mum and dad.
Just to guess or no, take two minutes.
And I mean, how long did that take two minutes to ask 22 breathing, sleeping airway questions.
Maybe we should get some other guys and girls to look at this problem.
Maybe we should, you know, get everybody else to look at it.
Look, I'm going to have a glass of water.
Rebecca, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to stop talking for a sec.
Yeah.
No one gave me a brief of what to talk about on this chat with you, Rebecca.
So gee whiz, I don't know.
I don't know whether I've done the crap done what I'm meant to be doing, but I might.
You might want to ask questions.
Yeah.
Or whatever you have to do.
You absolutely are doing exactly what we're hoping.
And I want to say because you've said it in it, and it's, it really is such a
synced way of saying this and no one has ever actually come on here and said it
like that.
The labels thing, just throw it out.
Just throw it out because it is.
And as a parent, when your child has these labels, so, you know, they feel it and it
just, just get to the root cause, the root cause is airway.
And that's one of the things we're like, we're very passionate.
And that's what we're focused on is airway awareness because it's all there.
Everything can change.
Yeah.
I mean,
I don't know.
Everything.
I don't know if parents, I don't know if you've been preparing understands the word root cause
though, Rebecca, you know, for a while we had a tree and all the symptoms and the roots
and I hated it.
I just hated it.
Did you?
I, I, I, I hated it.
And in the end I told the girls, I said, God, make me a piece of paper with that.
I can just yell at them about just give me a piece of paper.
And, and so, but it's just, it's easy.
It's easy to understand and fix this and everything follows.
I think, I think if I gave you a.
I never thought about it, but maybe I should get a plumber on to my website and talk about
plumbing because I got to tell you, we see teachers, we see nurses, we see, you know,
we see lots of different mums and dads.
All I do, all I do is kids, nothing else.
And we're, I don't know, we're back to back and underwater and the girls are fuming with
me that I'm going to America next week, fuming.
How dare you take three weeks out of the diary and, and jump in an airplane.
We need you here, boss.
So you make me laugh and think to myself, I need to interview a plumber and get him to
explain to me how a pipe works and how a pipe collapses.
And, and you know, I did, I went to the hardware store and I bought a black pipe, which is in
my other room.
So I haven't got in front of me.
I apologize.
I didn't bring my props.
But if it, it, it, it upsets me enormously when a mum says, well, my child got this cute
noise he makes all night long.
It's really cute.
I can hear him downstairs.
Nope.
It's not cute.
You know, I've got to, you know, they tell me the kids stores and I always go, so is that
like sleeping next to him, standing next to him downstairs or in another suburb?
Oh no.
Front door of the house.
I can hear him.
I go, has anybody told you should be worried about that?
And so there's, there's lots of, there's lots of, there's lots of issues there.
What else did I want to tell you?
I think that makes sense too.
Cause if you think about again, back to where we started the timeline 10, 15, 20 years ago,
think about all these things that we grew up with from Archie Bunker on.
I mean, we're going way back into the archives for shows here.
Cause I do.
But from there forward, how many of these sitcoms were, was dad snoring and it was just,
you know, insert laugh track and then now, oh, the kid snoring.
That's so cute.
You know, we didn't know.
Oh, you don't know.
You don't know.
And I'd like to get normal and normal and common, normal and common, common, common.
I also liked it.
We know we haven't discussed the brain and, and how it impacts it.
Well, we haven't just, we, cause remember I, I, I've from sleep 25 years ago, you know,
sleep medicine really, I think my business card says oral, I don't know, keeps changing,
but, um, creating a facial dental sleep medicine.
I think it says this week.
I don't know.
Yeah.
That's what it's, that's what it says on your website.
Yeah.
And, and, and, uh, I think the girls want to change the airway dentist.
I don't, I don't care, you know, but, uh, the business card says oral, oral, oral, oral,
and oral, oral, oral, oral.
So we want, we haven't discussed the brain.
I'm passionate about the brain.
I've learnt a lot about the brain.
I've read about the brain alone.
Um, you know, the glyphatic irrigate.
I tell my is it.
You know, the glyphatic irrigation system that cleans the brain there, I think they found
that eight years ago or nine years ago.
Um, lymphatics and, uh, lights up at night.
And there's some really cool stuff about the brain and what they found and how and
And so I said to the parents, you know, the parents say, is the brain important for the
kid while they're sleeping?
And I go, you know, we do a lot of that laughter stuff.
You know, I think the brain's about, I tell, I always ask the kids, is the brain busy a
daytime or nighttime?
And I go, it's busy a daytime, Dr. Mark, you silly person.
And so I say, no, well, actually it's not.
And occasionally the kids go, it's busy during the night.
I said, who told you that?
And so I, there's a lot to it and it's all above the shoulders.
There's a lot to it and it's above the shoulders.
And my goal is to see no adults because if you fix the four year olds, then you won't
have an adult patient at 35 or 40.
Wouldn't that be amazing?
If you fix all the four year olds and then you won't have a problem with the, then you
won't have a problem, you won't have any adult patients and you'll be, that'll be a really,
really cool thing.
There's another joke, you know, the brain will discussing, I think I have to go soon,
Rebecca.
There's a brain thing I was discussing with you, Rebecca.
And because no one's got me a cup of coffee yet, Rebecca, no one's given me a cup of coffee.
So I thought that was part of the deal with you and I.
Right.
I was supposed to send you coffee.
I know.
I dropped the ball.
So, so there's a great story with, with a standard of the parents, you know, in Australia,
private schoolings, very, very expensive.
And you know, it's expensive in America.
The universities are expensive.
Education is an expensive outlay for a parent and they want the best.
Right.
Little Johnny.
The best for little Johnny.
And I always say, I'd like someone to do a research paper.
Can you reach out to someone and go, what happens if we get 10 out of 10 oral structure,
10 out of 10 breathing, 10 out of 10 sleep and 10 out of 10 brain.
God knows how my brain work when I was 15.
I mean, I'm surprised it worked at all.
How did I get here?
So what, what would happen if you had a 10 out of 10 brain in relation to private schooling
and university?
I mean, I mean, the brain, you know, I mean, who needs to pay $40,000 a year for a private
school with a fancy logo on your lapel?
If someone can just get your airway to work and your brain's going to be smarter.
It's rhetorical.
It's very rhetorical.
And I've got no idea what the answer is, but I do ponder that often having paid for
kids, my kids to go to private school.
And I ponder, you know, what, what would change?
And, and then the other podcast you've got is the podcast that says what, how many hours
a night are people sleeping?
And that's a, that's another one hour discussion.
It's a one hour discussion on the brain.
There's a one hour discussion on, are we sleeping enough?
And there's a one hour discussion on getting a plumber on your, on your, on your website
and talking about plumbing instead of this fancy schmancy medical dental airway stuff
you spoke.
So what does that say?
Hey, are you when, when you're here for the next few weeks, are you going to be at airway
Palooza?
Yeah.
Okay.
Awesome.
Then swing by the booth and say hi to us.
We are actually calf is the sponsor for day one of airway.
Cause it's kids day.
Oh, yeah.
Well, I'm very annoyed with America because it, because, because I'd like to get a little
conference every weekend and you guys get to jump in a plane and just pop over to Dallas
and I, I, I, I, I, I get a plane at Wayne and Vance and then I've got to find, get out
of this, get there and fly there and la, la, la.
You guys just pop in and pop out and, and so I keep on seeing these emails of these conferences
when I go to, when I go, oh my God, you guys are so lucky.
So then the question is maybe you should have a one hour podcast with why aren't 250,000
dentists going to all the airway conferences in America when it's a one hour flight on
an airplane?
When that dumb Australian guy flies, I think I fly a day and a half to get there and a
day and a half to get back.
I don't know.
And my wife is really upset that it's always America.
She says, can we get a Europe please?
Cause you know, can we get a Europe on the way home?
Can't, can't those Americans make a conference in Europe somewhere?
So credit, credit to all of you.
Rebecca, you're doing, you're doing some magical, magical work in your space, helping
mums and dads understand the little kitties.
And I like to say under the age of 12, that's my language.
You don't have to agree with me.
And, and getting those little kitties to grow and develop and thrive properly.
And so the mums and dads understand why.
And there's a joke with that that goes, I treat a, I treat a place, I treat half of
the town, it's a town in the middle of nowhere, it's like nowhere is built.
I mean, it's an ice plate.
And I treat half the town, I think.
Cause I think one mother told another mother told another mother and told another.
It's like a nine hour drive in the car.
So, and so you've got all these conferences and you're doing magical work.
Let's get these guys, let's get these guys to turn up these medical dental allied health
guys and girls to turn up and change these kids lives and help them thrive and help
them breathe better.
That's what I want.
And I'll tell you what, we're counting on those airway mama bears to get the word out.
That's who does it.
Thank you so much for being on and enjoy your coffee.
And I can't wait to have the opportunity to sit down with you at airway Palooza.
You know, whether it's airway Palooza or whether it's another course or another speaker
or another, there's no one shop in America that's doing everything for everybody.
We're a team.
That's right.
And one of my people calls it the airway circle and we're all over together and we all overlap
and we all turn up to different courses with different doctors with different flavors.
We all, we all cook chicken soup.
We all have different flavor.
We all make vegetable soup.
We all have different flavor to how we make it.
We all culturally come from different heritage, but we all turn up together with one commonality
and the commonality is the kids.
Because it's going to be a collaborative approach.
It's going to take everyone.
By the way, there's another row there to talk about adults.
We can talk about adults, but that, you know, I didn't get my coffee.
So I'm not going to hang around for another hour.
So, but, you know, there's another speech there with the adults.
So there's another, you've been up material.
You can have material for weeks, for weeks.
From Australia and Dr. Mark Levi from Australia, Sydney, Australia and all our icons, the Bondi
Beach and the Uprouse and our kangaroos.
Just wonderful, wonderful, be able to help and speak and share and just share nice spin
on airway and kids with you, Rebecca.
And thank you for what you do.
Thank you very much for what you do with the kids.
Okay.
Thank you for what you do.
And I appreciate you coming on.
Thank you so much.
Talk soon.
Bye.
Okay.
Bye.
Thanks again to today's guests.
Thanks to Mark Levi for sharing his medical insight and each of you for listening to today's
episode.
You can stay connected with the Children's Airway First Foundation by following us on
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Don't forget to subscribe to the Airway First podcast on your favorite podcasting platform
so you won't miss an upcoming episode.
If you'd like to be a guest or have an idea for an upcoming show, shoot us a note via
the contact page on our website or send us an email directly at infoatchildrensairwayfirst.org.
Today's episode was written and directed by Rebecca St. James, video editing and promotion
by Ryan Draughan and guest outreach by Kristi Bojinkian.
And finally, thanks to all the parents and medical professionals out there that are
working hard to help make the lives of kids around the globe just a little bit better.
Take care, stay safe and happy breathing everyone.