Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty Podcast.
I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist
and founder of copy led branding agency, Smart
Beauty Creative. Hello and happy new year. Today's
guest is Michelle Cluse, CEO of Stila Cosmetics,
who, like many of my guests, is the antithesis
of the stereotypical corporate high flyer, and
instead was an absolute dream to chat to. Michelle's
career path is fascinating. She's run billion
dollar businesses, been the youngest group CEO
at a major corporation, and then walked away
from it all to launch her own athleisure brand
in Australia. What she discovered about herself
in that process is, I think, one of the most
honest conversations about entrepreneurship I've
had on this show. We talk about why corporate
life gets an unfair reputation and how her brain
works differently in a big organization versus
a startup. We also dig into what she's doing
at Steeler, turning around a heritage brand without
losing its soul and why she believes some brains
are simply built for certain kinds of work. Let's
get into it. Michelle, thank you so much for
speaking with me today. I think a lot of my past
guests have mainly been early stage founders,
but I'd love to talk to you about building your
career within a pre -established organization.
From your perspective, what is the biggest...
misconception people have about that kind of
career trajectory as opposed to being like we
were saying earlier before we recorded a scrappy
startup. Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I think
that there are a few benefits to working within
a larger organization, particularly earlier in
your career. And I know a lot of the folks that
you've spoken with on your podcast actually did
start in bigger organizations. When I became
a founder, I had already been a CEO and I had
actually run a billion dollar business, and I
had also run a large team. And I think that that
for me, it gave me a false sense of my abilities.
And so being an entrepreneur was incredibly humbling.
And I thought, of course, people will answer
because I was the CEO of Peer Bar. I was the
CEO of XYZ. And the truth is, when you are a
founder, a lot of times nobody cares. and they
won't get back to you. And you have to really
drop that ego. And that definitely was humbling.
And I say that in... complete honesty, it really
did transform the way I think about leadership
going forward that you always have to remember.
Just because you're the CEO does not mean you're
the most important person in the room. You were
the youngest group CEO. Yeah, I was in my mid
30s. And I was running a billion dollar business.
Yeah. I mean, did you have any kind of reservations
about that or worries that, you know, you get
burnout and things associated with that kind
of role? Absolutely. And I think it was more,
I mean, I questioned my own abilities. Am I ready
for this? But I've always been ready to jump
in and do scary things. But I don't subscribe
to a fake it till you make it kind of mentality
because that's never worked out for me, frankly.
But I was also nervous because in my mid 30s,
I looked like I was in my mid 20s and I'm a small.
I remember you saying when we met. And I think
that was difficult because everyone who reported
to me pretty much was a lot older and had had
a lot more experience. And so I felt a strong
onus to be able to prove myself very quickly.
And, you know, I think that I learned from that
experience. And I will say that the one thing
I did was I did a lot of listening, but I think
in some cases, maybe I was too shy in the beginning
because I was concerned about the credibility
that I would have. Do you think you necessarily
have to be married to the job in that kind of
scenario to a certain extent? Or do you think
corporations have got better now? Or is it just
having, you know, managing your sort of boundaries
and work -life balance a bit better? I think
it's all of those things. And, you know, I do
think that since the pandemic, there has been
a bit of a backlash generationally too about,
you know, work, work, work. Prove yourself at
all costs. I mean, I know when I came out of
business school, I joined the Boston Consulting
Group. And I don't remember many nights leaving
before 10 p .m. at night. And I really wanted
to prove myself. And I do think that there is
a generational and a culture shift, not that
people aren't willing to work hard, just that
life also matters. And, you know, I do think
that that persists not only at large organizations,
but also startups. Now, for me, I think at that
point in my career, I probably was married to
my job, but as I was so eager to do a good job
and to prove myself. Now, I probably do work
that hard still, but I have less of that, I guess,
nervousness about whether I know how to be a
good CEO or, you know, I don't worry so much
about the credibility, but I think that also
comes with experience. I'm in my fifth CEO role
now. So I'm always learning, but I also don't
feel, I guess, that imposter syndrome any longer.
You know, it's funny when I was interviewing
Collette from the Inkey List a few weeks ago,
she was saying that now, you know, she's been
in the business a number of years, she doesn't
feel the need to speak in meetings when she doesn't
have to. Yes, and I'll comment on that. But I
also want to say I really enjoyed that interview.
Thank you. Brilliant. But absolutely, I think
that I've learned that when I speak, people will
sometimes take it seriously. And so if I have
an idea, they'll take it as like the gospel and
go run with it. And that's not what I mean. So
I try really hard to listen to everybody. and
then speak or I'll say something to kind of set
the expectations and then turn it over. I do
have a bad habit. So if I think interrupting
people, but I think that's due to time management
and trying to be efficient and get people back
on track. It is a development area for me. I'm
very aware of. But, you know, I have gotten more
confident in letting the team. even have meetings
without me that maybe I should be in, make decisions,
run them past me, because I've come to realize
that I can't be on top of everything. And actually,
I've also come to realize that I don't always
have the best answer. And sometimes they will
have far better decisions, strategies, answers
than I do. The job itself, what do you personally
enjoy about working within that kind of infrastructure?
Because I'm sure it's not as rigid as everyone
makes it out to be. For me, I learned that being
in a startup is you sometimes have to really
go deep and do a lot at one time. And I realized
there are people who are really good at building
a ship. And there are people who are really good
at steering a ship. And there are people who
are good at steering the ship when you're about
to hit an iceberg and you have to make quick
decisions. Brilliant analogy. And I found that
I'm very much the third of those types of leaders.
I am a creative at heart. I am also good at math.
So I did enjoy the conceptual piece of being
a founder and an entrepreneur. But in actuality,
I didn't enjoy it. And I think, and listen, everybody
is a chat GPT. doctor now for themselves. So
I would say that I probably have a bit of undiagnosed
or self -diagnosed is maybe better ADHD. And
I always feel like my brain is going to 500 things
at once. And I've seen this through my whole
life. I mean, when I was in undergrad at university,
I did three degrees at the same time. And I always
say that if I had done one and I got a perfect
GPA, and if I had done one that I probably would
have had like a 2 .0 rather than a 4 .0 because
to have 800 different things that are taking
my attention span and while you might think that
in an entrepreneurial environment that that would
really be suitable because you're doing everything
yourself the reality is you have to sit down
and focus and get the books done or you know,
get through the list of whatever you need to
do. And that actually doesn't suit the way I
think. So being a CEO of an established organization
actually does suit the way that I am built because
I can jump from, you know, chatting with you
to talking about our development of our spring
launch of eyeliners. Or right after that, I might
be talking about, you know, the marketing strategy
for something we're working on. And so my brain
is always shifting and I was think of my brain
as like a big band of rubber bands, big ball
of rubber bands, and they're pinging all over,
but they always ping and come back to the center,
so they connect to a core. And so I think that
one of the things that is a strength of mine
is that I can see patterns in the chaos because
everything is kind of coming back together. And
so I enjoy that about being in a larger corporate
environment because every team is another bunch
of rubber bands, you know, kind of connecting
to that big ball. It just, it suits who I am.
And I, I think I would struggle being in, you
know, a smaller business that was like, call
it 20 or 30 million kind of in turnover, just
because the infrastructure would be so much smaller
that I don't think it would, it would suit the
way that I work. Like your brain needs that kind
of Rubik's cube to constantly be sort of looking
at the different moving parts. Constantly. And
it's, it's where I shine more than when I'm trying
to do it all myself or do more of it myself.
And why, you know, first of all, why Stila? What
do you personally love about the brand? And what
was it that drew you to it? Yeah, well, there's
there's two things. I'll talk about Stila specifically,
but in general, I think when you're going to
be a CEO, there are some people who are like,
I just like to lead. I don't care if I'm selling
rug chemicals or I'm selling, you know, lawnmowers.
I just like to lead for me. I actually want to
lead something that I believe in, that I believe
has a reason to exist and that has some special
point of differentiation. And so I had been contacted
for several different CEO roles throughout my
career. And I always ask myself, number one,
can I get excited about the brand? And I'll talk
about that in a minute. But number two, does
this brand deserve to exist? And sometimes I
think, you know what? I'm not sure. I'm not sure
I can even turn this thing around. But for Stila,
when I got called for it, I thought, huh, you
know, it probably does deserve to exist because
in at least North America, it has the number
one liquid eyeliner. It has, when I talked to
friends, they all said, oh my God, I love Stila.
And those are the, those of my friends who weren't
using Stila had said, I haven't thought about
it in a long time. But the point being that there
was nobody who had any kind of negative emotion
around the brand. So I said, okay, there's no
negative emotion. There is a hero skew. I can
do something with that. And then from a personal
level, I have a strong connection to Stila because
when I was in my mid twenties and the, you know,
around the turn of the millennium, I I had my
first big paycheck and I thought, ooh, it's time
for me to move up from the drugstore brands.
And the first brand that I bought was Stila because
Stila at that time was just the coolest thing
in the world. And I wanted to be a Stila girl.
And so I remember that's when still department
stores were places where you would buy a lot
of makeup. You know, today that's still somewhat
the case, but there are a lot of specialty retailers
that were either not in existence or much earlier
in their expansion journeys. And I bought Stila.
And I felt so cool. To me, it was like a sign
that I had made it. I could trade up, you know,
because makeup is something that helps transform
you, makes you feel confident, and makes you
feel beautiful. And so that emotion was very
much tied to, you know, my memory of becoming
an adult. And so I had that personal connection
to Steel. So all those three things made me think,
you know what, this could be a really interesting
role for me. And also when you love the brand
and you believe in it, it makes it feel less
like a sacrifice when you're up at 6 a .m. to
do something that needs to be taken care of.
It's almost, I don't want to say fun, sometimes
it is, but at least it doesn't feel like, oh
my God, I have to go work on something that I
just simply don't. Yeah, it must have been nice
that you had that personal connections or grew
up with the brand because you represent a lot
of the people that you're actually targeting.
And what made you decide that, you know, it was
time to refresh the brand's positioning and what
did you want that to achieve? Well, that was
obvious that it needed to be done before I even
joined Stila. You know, I think a brand over
31 years goes through a lot of iterations of
itself, different leaders. The industry landscape
has changed a little bit. And I always think,
you know, a person and I know you have a young
child and their core personality is already formed,
but they're going to evolve and they're going
to change. So that inner seed will stay the same,
but who they are, how they express themselves
will evolve over time. So that's what I like
to think first and foremost, when you're going
through kind of like a, how are you going to
reframe the whole brand positioning? Tricky balance.
It is, because it's like, what part of that seed
needs to stay the same? And when I think about
Janine LaBelle, who, you know, was a brilliant
celebrity makeup artist and the founder of Stila,
she, you know, I can't, I can't. put words in
her mouth to say what her vision was. But if
I had to try to guess, it would be about bringing,
you know, the best of high performance backstage
beauty to everyone and making it accessible and
making it joyful. And I think that this is where
Stila really stood out was it had a bit of whimsy
to it. You know, the illustrations. the playfulness
of the packaging itself, the innovation in packaging.
I mean, when we launched the Plumping Lip Glaze,
which was under her leadership, she actually
hired an engineer. And that click, click, click
sound is something that I think is really embedded
in a lot of women's memories of, you know, early
day Stila. So there were pieces of that that
I knew were integral to the core, that seed that
I talked about of the brand. But the landscape
has evolved and there are so many You know artistry
led brands now the competition is more fierce
and so when I brought on our new chief marketing
officer Mary Rodriguez I said we really we really
need to come up with a brand mission a brand
statement And and communicate that make sure
everybody in the organization knows it so that
then that becomes obvious To everyone so we kept
some of those core elements of high performance,
artistry, joyfulness in the packaging, which
did require us to kind of pivot a little bit
because they think that it had become much more
like the other brands, kind of, I don't want
to say soulless, because I don't think it was
ever soulless, but it was a little bit more me
too in its presentation. And you have to think
about, you can't just make a kind of a 180 change,
right? So how do we think about What happens
in product development? What happens in the way
we speak about the brand in our marketing assets?
How about how we shoot it? How do we even, you
know, create the packaging? And so it's a little
bit about, you know, evolution, not revolution.
It's just that we're trying to speed evolution
up just a little bit. Yeah, just listening to
you is kind of... I just feel so overwhelming.
I mean, just that, you know, I guess you were
saying earlier, it's kind of how your brain works.
But I imagine it must be just no, you know, easy,
no easy ship to turn around when you've, like
you say, you've got all this NPD and packaging
and all these different sort of strands and trying
to get them all together in one cohesive narrative.
I guess that's, that's the tricky thing. Yeah,
which is why I was saying that being a turnaround
CEO is in some ways is kind of similar to being
an entrepreneur because you're still trying to
figure that out. You're pivoting all the time.
You are doing so much yourself, but you're also
leading, you know, 800 different things that
are happening that you have to be very close
to. And so there are some similarities despite
the fact that, you know, thankfully I do have
a nice infrastructure. It's a question that I
feel like we shouldn't even be asking these days
But when it comes to being a woman in leadership,
you know in senior leadership spaces I imagine
that you're often in the minority for some women.
I know it's not even an issue and stuff So what
is your experience been in that respect? You
know, I I have mixed feelings about it because
I think everything you just said is true I am
sick of trying to play the victim, be the victim,
blame things on how it's so hard as a female.
But at the same time, there is still a little
bit of a bias. I think it's a little bit less
in beauty. There are a lot of really brilliant
female beauty CEOs out there who provide a lot
of inspiration for me. But I also do think it's
hard. And it is true that when I look at my equity
stakeholder team, there isn't a female. in that
team. I do have one advisor who's wonderful,
who is a female. And when I look at some of my
past roles, yes, for sure. And I can tell you
that being a female and being a small female
actually has probably been detrimental to me
in the past in interviewing and getting the roles.
And I have been flat out told, we love you. I'll
give you one example, but. Several years ago,
but less than a decade. I was interviewing for
a multi -billion dollar company and private equity
backed and it came down to me and one other candidate
and I presented to the board and they were like,
this is brilliant. Can we have this presentation?
And you know, they're like, we really, this,
this just feels right. Let us discuss internally.
I think it was a Thursday. Yeah. And then on
Monday they called and they said, listen, you
know, we're just looking at our franchise network
and our group of, you know, owners and we're
just worried that you don't look credible enough.
And they ended up hiring kind of a middle -aged
white male. And six months later, he was out
of the job and they called me back and they said,
listen, we made a mistake. are you interested?
And I just said, no, thank you. You didn't believe
in me. You weren't willing to take risk on me
when you, it wasn't even necessarily a risk,
but you weren't willing to back me when you had
the chance. And now I feel like I'm on your B
list. So absolutely not. It was like, I don't
want to come in and clean this guy's mess when
you could have just brought me in from the get
-go. And it did feel like it was the right thing
for me until they said that. And I realized,
not only did I not want that job, I actually
won't work for that private equity firm if they
ever contacted me. I think a lot of women are
kind of put off by corporate roles because this
sort of this fear mongering of Well, you're gonna
be the only woman in the room and you're gonna
be you know victimized and nx1z and I don't know
from my from my own personal experience I find
women more intimidating men to be honest Sometimes
you know and I do think that you know I'm I'm
kind of in between these generations of where
you know I didn't have a lot of female CEO role
models to look up to I think that the kind of
generation coming into the workforce now does
have a lot of They do have a lot. And so, yeah,
I mean, I do think that a lot of women who are
my age or older did have to be a little bit ruthless
to to climb the corporate ladder and get where
they are. And fundamentally, I'm just not like
that. And I, you know, I don't I don't fit in
organizations that are like that. And I know
that very much about myself. But there definitely
are and still younger women, older women today
that are like that. And I think it's just like,
you know, people are people. Yes. Is it a little
harder as a female? Sometimes, yes. You know,
as we've talked about, I've certainly come across
that and I'm certainly cognizant of it. But at
the same time, you know, I I don't think that
it has, it's inhibiting me now. I don't think,
you know, I mean, I'm almost grateful that I
had that experience because it tipped me off
that it wasn't gonna be the right place for me.
No, exactly. I think people forget that these
things are a two -way street and you're interviewing
them as much as the other way around. Has there
ever been a moment where, you know, when you've
operated in these high -stake roles, you've felt
like, okay, I just feel quite overwhelmed and
I'm not sure I can sort of You know do this kind
of role anymore? I know you mentioned that when
you started your athleisure wear brand That was
more of a practical decision because your husband
had moved to Australia. So that was related to
that but um Yes, is there ever any been any other?
Sort of situation or any situation where you
felt that this kind of role isn't for me So I
haven't felt that as as a CEO There are certainly
times where I feel overwhelmed But again, it
goes back to, all right, here's the vision, here's
the mission. How do I trust the process? It feels
horrible now. Power through. It will get better.
But I will say that I think... being an entrepreneur,
I certainly felt that. And I think that the mental
and emotional state of an entrepreneur can be
much more variable. People don't talk about it
enough. I was just saying to a previous podcast
guest, people don't talk about mental health
when it comes to entrepreneurship, but it's so
important, isn't it? And if you'll let me, I
will tell you for a few minutes about what it
was like, because, you know, I talked earlier
about you know, thinking that I was, I don't
want to say I thought I was so great, but I had,
I think, too high of confidence that, of course,
it's going to go great. I've been a CEO of these
big businesses, and, you know, that is not the
case. And so, you know, there was a point when
I moved to Australia that and I'll be very open
about this, where I had started Urban Savage
and I didn't have many friends there. And my
husband had a high travel job. And there was
a period where my first shipment of apparel got
lost at sea. I didn't know yet that I needed
to have the business insurance. I'm 100 % self
-funded. I put seven figures of my own savings
into this. You know, I remember it was pouring.
I was so depressed. And I was standing outside
on the balcony of our apartment in Surrey Hills
in Sydney. And I just, I said, Oh my God, I can't
go on. and I called my husband and I said, I'm
not a suicidal person, but I don't feel like
I can even wake up any longer. I can't go on.
I was standing on the balcony and I don't even
think he got it. He was in Thailand at a party
and he's like, well, we'll talk about it tomorrow.
I'm like, I don't think you understand anything
that that insane pressure is something that you
don't have as much. in a corporate role, because
you can share a little bit of the stress, not
all, because as I said, the buck stops with you
as a CEO. But as the founder, when you're self
-funded, I think it can be really overwhelming.
And since then, I was talking to a friend who
had had a chocolate shop in Manhattan in the
East Village. And she said she got to a point
where she was hiding behind the counter because
she didn't want to talk to her customers. She
loved the product, but it was just so overwhelming.
And that really resonated with me. And I realized
at that point, it's not that I can't handle the
stress. It's that I'm not suited to be running
alone, you know, and I think, you know, I can't
remember, maybe it was the interview with Colette,
maybe it was actually with with Anna Teal, but
that you talked about flying a plane, why it's
still being built. And I think, you know, I'm
not good at that. But being in a turnaround,
or, you know, another company is like, flying
a plane that's been around for so long that it's
got little pieces you need to have held together
with duct tape. And then how do you continue
to fly that plane? It's not like, oh, this is
just a big, beautiful plane. It's already built
and it can just fly. There are pieces falling
apart, right? And it's kind of like a little
different because the plane's already built.
You got the whole crew. And so I felt like here
I was trying to do too much building this plane
while I was flying it. I had zero. support. And
that just wasn't for me. And, you know, I did
feel like it was too much. And it really does,
you know, I think now I made so many mistakes
as a founder. And I think if I ever did it again,
which I'm a bit reticent to do, you know, I've
I learned a lot from that. But actually, I learned
so much that I've taken back into my corporate
career that I still find it was a valuable experience.
And I just I think I'm so fortunate that Urban
Savage still is thriving and exists today. and
it has a team of people that work on it so that
it allows me to still own it. But I spend very
minimal time doing that because my focus is Stela.
Yeah, I think there's a tendency to romanticize
founder life and entrepreneur. entrepreneurialism
and it's like people all people joke or people
minimize minimize that idea of like oh it's like
trying to stay calm while your house is burning
down and nothing that you know it's funny but
at the same time people underestimate how mentally
risky not just financially risky it is and i've
definitely been you know the similar situation
to yourself where you're trying to sort of strategize
and your brain's like what what can i do to stop
this stress what what can i do and your brain's
like well we could what it's that kind of not
that you would ever do it, but the thought pops
up and it's just like, here's a solution. It's
just like, oh my God. Yeah. And having that network
is so critical. You know, if I ever did it again,
A, I think I would not do it in a place where
I didn't have a built -in social network that
was like, you know, I couldn't even call my friends
sometimes. It was like such a big time difference.
I had no support. But I also think that if you
do bring in investors, you already have, and
I'll say one more thing that I've actually never
talked about this with anyone before, but I do
think that Having investors brings a level of
support and professionalism. But also, there
is a mentality for me that because I was completely
self -funded, if I didn't do something, I was
like, oh, it doesn't matter. I'm just hurting
my own finances. I'm not hurting anybody else's.
So I think that when you've taken on that funding,
you have such an extreme responsibility to everyone
else that it can push you. But also you have
that support. And so I think if I ever went back
into that entrepreneurship journey again, I would
just do it very differently. Reflecting on what
you've just said, and thank you for sharing that.
We really appreciate it. People get asked about
imposter syndrome, and I'm somebody that tends
to get in my own way. You strike me as somebody
who doesn't get in their own way, which is brilliant.
Have you always been like that? And if you haven't,
what's the secret? Yes. Very self -serving question
now. I think that there are natural born leaders,
but I also think that you can learn to be a good
leader, a good manager. But I think back, you
know, at my own self as a child and we, you know,
I grew up in Illinois and in the Midwest and
we had a whole group of. neighborhood kids. And
I remember even at like 10 or 11 years old, even
the older kids I would be orchestrating in the
neighborhood Fort building contest. I think I've
just always been very much like, okay, here's
the vision. Here's what needs to get done. Here's
who here's, you know, this person is best at
doing this. I'm not strong enough to lift all
of this stuff. So they've got to do that. And,
you know, I've been good at convincing people
to come along on that journey with me. So I just
think that, you know, naturally being. a leader
does suit me. I won't say that I didn't have
imposter syndrome for for a little bit. I mean,
I think I had it more when I came out of business
school. So, you know, a lot of people go to business
school, but they went to undergrad for business
or, you know, something. I went to Northwestern
University Kellogg. And I remember when they
were introducing us and we had kind of like this
orientation weekend and they were like, oh, 60
percent of you had a business undergrad and 38
percent of you had, you know, an engineering
or science background and you know one point
8 % of you had, you know, a political science
or whatever background they're like, and 0 .2
% of you had other. And I realized I was the
entire other. And because I had two bachelor's
of fine arts and one bachelor of liberal arts.
And so I was like, wow, I'm different. And I
had a little bit of imposter syndrome there.
And then when I left business school and I went
to Boston Consulting Group for a handful of years,
you know, I was again, I was like, wow, I'm this
creative, but I happen to be good at math. And,
you know, I think that that taught me a lot about,
you know, bringing a different perspective, but
being comfortable in my own skin. And so, you
know, I don't, I think we all have that at certain
points, but I don't really have that much of
it anymore. No, I think it is interesting that
even when you're sort of developing your career,
you develop yourself as a person as well, don't
you? And I think that's, that's something that
I think often gets overlooked when people kind
of separate like business and personal life.
Well, actually, it's, you know, that I had this
sort of saying that you can't, you know, your
business is only as big as your self esteem.
And I think that's very And finally, going back
to Steeler, and I'll let you go to appreciate
that you're a very busy lady. What is your kind
of ultimate, you know, obviously you've been
instrumental in turning the brand around and
its new, you know, its new incarnation. What
is, you know, what's next for the brand? Do you
have a five -year vision or are you sort of seeing
how things go and what's, yeah, what's the plan?
You know, a little bit of both. I think we're
still early in that turnaround journey. I mean,
I'm really, I'm so pleased to say that at least
in the US market and in some of our key markets,
we've been up every single month this calendar
year on retail sales. And so, you know, I think
that's a real testament to the team really implementing
and making, you know, good decisions. I'm not
saying me, but the whole team. They've been incredible.
That said, we still have plenty of lift to do.
I mean, when you look at like a gondola, so if
you go to Selfridges, for example, you can only
fit, call it 110 SKUs on a single gondola unit.
And so you can't turn that over all at one time,
right? Because the retailers only have so much
open to buy that they can allocate. you can only
develop so much, it's costly to develop, and
you want to do it thoughtfully. So we're still
in the process of optimizing our assortment,
really building that brand. I think, you know,
last year was a focus on reminding people why
Steele is so great, and even that Steele is still
here, and our CMO, Mary, did a whole campaign
around, you know, making, poking fun at ourselves.
Like, Steele here was the hashtag, and really
trying to say, yeah, where we've been, yeah,
we've been a little quiet, we are still the number
one liquid eyeliner brand and here we are and
we're more allowed and we're more proud than
we've been so it's really kind of building on
that, continuing to evolve that portfolio, particularly
around categories where we have huge credibility,
really driving the hero and everything and kind
of that halo around that hero and continuing
to refine our brand positioning. Like I said,
you know, life and people are in evolution and
brands need to be too. And I know we're getting
close to time, but when I think about brands
who haven't had to kind of go through an entire
revamp, there are only a few that have kind of
maintained that upward trajectory their entire
life cycle. And in fact, I think the only ones
I can think of are like Hermes and Chanel. Almost
every other brand has kind of gone through, you
know, cycles of peaks and valleys and redefinition
of who they are and what they do. So we'll continue
to refine. We'll continue to evolve and we'll
continue to kind of grow up in this this phase.
So I never I never know how to answer, you know,
where's the brand or where are you going to be
in five years? Because you can set that vision
and say, you know, we want to be, you know, this
joyful artistry brand. We want to be, you know,
known for eye makeup. And we can set that as
our mission, our vision, but exactly how we get
there, you know, those pieces will continue to
evolve and fall in place. Yes. You don't have
a clear roadmap, but in a way that's kind of,
you know, makes it more interesting, doesn't
it? Yeah. And you know what they say about best
laid plans, right? Yes. No, for sure. Well, Michelle,
I'll let you go, but thank you so much for chatting
with me. Really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm
so honored to be a guest on your podcast. I hope
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