WEBVTT 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:15.300 Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty Podcast. 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:18.699 I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist 00:00:18.699 --> 00:00:21.640 and founder of copy led branding agency, Smart 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:26.839 Beauty Creative. Hello and happy new year. Today's 00:00:26.839 --> 00:00:30.059 guest is Michelle Cluse, CEO of Stila Cosmetics, 00:00:30.460 --> 00:00:33.259 who, like many of my guests, is the antithesis 00:00:33.259 --> 00:00:36.079 of the stereotypical corporate high flyer, and 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:39.259 instead was an absolute dream to chat to. Michelle's 00:00:39.259 --> 00:00:41.539 career path is fascinating. She's run billion 00:00:41.539 --> 00:00:44.159 dollar businesses, been the youngest group CEO 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.859 at a major corporation, and then walked away 00:00:46.859 --> 00:00:48.820 from it all to launch her own athleisure brand 00:00:48.820 --> 00:00:51.630 in Australia. What she discovered about herself 00:00:51.630 --> 00:00:54.270 in that process is, I think, one of the most 00:00:54.270 --> 00:00:56.750 honest conversations about entrepreneurship I've 00:00:56.750 --> 00:00:59.409 had on this show. We talk about why corporate 00:00:59.409 --> 00:01:02.009 life gets an unfair reputation and how her brain 00:01:02.009 --> 00:01:04.170 works differently in a big organization versus 00:01:04.170 --> 00:01:06.730 a startup. We also dig into what she's doing 00:01:06.730 --> 00:01:09.109 at Steeler, turning around a heritage brand without 00:01:09.109 --> 00:01:11.769 losing its soul and why she believes some brains 00:01:11.769 --> 00:01:14.310 are simply built for certain kinds of work. Let's 00:01:14.310 --> 00:01:17.359 get into it. Michelle, thank you so much for 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:19.340 speaking with me today. I think a lot of my past 00:01:19.340 --> 00:01:22.319 guests have mainly been early stage founders, 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.099 but I'd love to talk to you about building your 00:01:25.099 --> 00:01:27.700 career within a pre -established organization. 00:01:28.019 --> 00:01:30.200 From your perspective, what is the biggest... 00:01:30.219 --> 00:01:33.439 misconception people have about that kind of 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.459 career trajectory as opposed to being like we 00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:37.659 were saying earlier before we recorded a scrappy 00:01:37.659 --> 00:01:40.019 startup. Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I think 00:01:40.019 --> 00:01:43.680 that there are a few benefits to working within 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:46.340 a larger organization, particularly earlier in 00:01:46.340 --> 00:01:48.120 your career. And I know a lot of the folks that 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:51.599 you've spoken with on your podcast actually did 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.959 start in bigger organizations. When I became 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:58.239 a founder, I had already been a CEO and I had 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:01.310 actually run a billion dollar business, and I 00:02:01.310 --> 00:02:06.329 had also run a large team. And I think that that 00:02:06.329 --> 00:02:09.969 for me, it gave me a false sense of my abilities. 00:02:10.669 --> 00:02:14.250 And so being an entrepreneur was incredibly humbling. 00:02:14.650 --> 00:02:17.289 And I thought, of course, people will answer 00:02:17.289 --> 00:02:19.990 because I was the CEO of Peer Bar. I was the 00:02:19.990 --> 00:02:24.469 CEO of XYZ. And the truth is, when you are a 00:02:24.469 --> 00:02:27.009 founder, a lot of times nobody cares. and they 00:02:27.009 --> 00:02:30.189 won't get back to you. And you have to really 00:02:30.189 --> 00:02:35.229 drop that ego. And that definitely was humbling. 00:02:35.530 --> 00:02:39.340 And I say that in... complete honesty, it really 00:02:39.340 --> 00:02:41.860 did transform the way I think about leadership 00:02:41.860 --> 00:02:44.419 going forward that you always have to remember. 00:02:44.780 --> 00:02:46.919 Just because you're the CEO does not mean you're 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:49.419 the most important person in the room. You were 00:02:49.419 --> 00:02:53.319 the youngest group CEO. Yeah, I was in my mid 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:55.979 30s. And I was running a billion dollar business. 00:02:56.439 --> 00:02:58.439 Yeah. I mean, did you have any kind of reservations 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:00.560 about that or worries that, you know, you get 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.699 burnout and things associated with that kind 00:03:02.699 --> 00:03:05.759 of role? Absolutely. And I think it was more, 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:08.080 I mean, I questioned my own abilities. Am I ready 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:10.900 for this? But I've always been ready to jump 00:03:10.900 --> 00:03:14.439 in and do scary things. But I don't subscribe 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:17.639 to a fake it till you make it kind of mentality 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:20.319 because that's never worked out for me, frankly. 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:24.439 But I was also nervous because in my mid 30s, 00:03:24.500 --> 00:03:28.099 I looked like I was in my mid 20s and I'm a small. 00:03:28.099 --> 00:03:31.280 I remember you saying when we met. And I think 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:33.460 that was difficult because everyone who reported 00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:37.219 to me pretty much was a lot older and had had 00:03:37.219 --> 00:03:40.080 a lot more experience. And so I felt a strong 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:42.539 onus to be able to prove myself very quickly. 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:45.759 And, you know, I think that I learned from that 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:49.539 experience. And I will say that the one thing 00:03:49.539 --> 00:03:52.599 I did was I did a lot of listening, but I think 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:55.860 in some cases, maybe I was too shy in the beginning 00:03:55.860 --> 00:03:59.020 because I was concerned about the credibility 00:03:59.020 --> 00:04:01.969 that I would have. Do you think you necessarily 00:04:01.969 --> 00:04:05.169 have to be married to the job in that kind of 00:04:05.169 --> 00:04:07.150 scenario to a certain extent? Or do you think 00:04:07.150 --> 00:04:09.069 corporations have got better now? Or is it just 00:04:09.069 --> 00:04:11.870 having, you know, managing your sort of boundaries 00:04:11.870 --> 00:04:14.310 and work -life balance a bit better? I think 00:04:14.310 --> 00:04:16.470 it's all of those things. And, you know, I do 00:04:16.470 --> 00:04:18.149 think that since the pandemic, there has been 00:04:18.149 --> 00:04:22.610 a bit of a backlash generationally too about, 00:04:22.610 --> 00:04:25.540 you know, work, work, work. Prove yourself at 00:04:25.540 --> 00:04:27.500 all costs. I mean, I know when I came out of 00:04:27.500 --> 00:04:29.540 business school, I joined the Boston Consulting 00:04:29.540 --> 00:04:33.759 Group. And I don't remember many nights leaving 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:38.339 before 10 p .m. at night. And I really wanted 00:04:38.339 --> 00:04:41.199 to prove myself. And I do think that there is 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.939 a generational and a culture shift, not that 00:04:43.939 --> 00:04:46.720 people aren't willing to work hard, just that 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:50.339 life also matters. And, you know, I do think 00:04:50.339 --> 00:04:53.689 that that persists not only at large organizations, 00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:56.930 but also startups. Now, for me, I think at that 00:04:56.930 --> 00:04:59.129 point in my career, I probably was married to 00:04:59.129 --> 00:05:01.689 my job, but as I was so eager to do a good job 00:05:01.689 --> 00:05:05.089 and to prove myself. Now, I probably do work 00:05:05.089 --> 00:05:09.350 that hard still, but I have less of that, I guess, 00:05:09.670 --> 00:05:12.850 nervousness about whether I know how to be a 00:05:12.850 --> 00:05:15.810 good CEO or, you know, I don't worry so much 00:05:15.810 --> 00:05:18.550 about the credibility, but I think that also 00:05:18.550 --> 00:05:21.110 comes with experience. I'm in my fifth CEO role 00:05:21.110 --> 00:05:25.490 now. So I'm always learning, but I also don't 00:05:25.490 --> 00:05:28.730 feel, I guess, that imposter syndrome any longer. 00:05:29.150 --> 00:05:30.769 You know, it's funny when I was interviewing 00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:32.550 Collette from the Inkey List a few weeks ago, 00:05:33.069 --> 00:05:35.009 she was saying that now, you know, she's been 00:05:35.009 --> 00:05:36.810 in the business a number of years, she doesn't 00:05:36.810 --> 00:05:38.649 feel the need to speak in meetings when she doesn't 00:05:38.649 --> 00:05:41.209 have to. Yes, and I'll comment on that. But I 00:05:41.209 --> 00:05:43.350 also want to say I really enjoyed that interview. 00:05:43.509 --> 00:05:47.509 Thank you. Brilliant. But absolutely, I think 00:05:47.509 --> 00:05:50.870 that I've learned that when I speak, people will 00:05:50.870 --> 00:05:54.009 sometimes take it seriously. And so if I have 00:05:54.009 --> 00:05:57.139 an idea, they'll take it as like the gospel and 00:05:57.139 --> 00:05:59.639 go run with it. And that's not what I mean. So 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.279 I try really hard to listen to everybody. and 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:05.899 then speak or I'll say something to kind of set 00:06:05.899 --> 00:06:08.879 the expectations and then turn it over. I do 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:10.800 have a bad habit. So if I think interrupting 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.060 people, but I think that's due to time management 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:14.839 and trying to be efficient and get people back 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:19.519 on track. It is a development area for me. I'm 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.040 very aware of. But, you know, I have gotten more 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.009 confident in letting the team. even have meetings 00:06:26.009 --> 00:06:28.870 without me that maybe I should be in, make decisions, 00:06:29.050 --> 00:06:31.350 run them past me, because I've come to realize 00:06:31.350 --> 00:06:34.110 that I can't be on top of everything. And actually, 00:06:34.230 --> 00:06:36.230 I've also come to realize that I don't always 00:06:36.230 --> 00:06:38.970 have the best answer. And sometimes they will 00:06:38.970 --> 00:06:42.050 have far better decisions, strategies, answers 00:06:42.050 --> 00:06:45.910 than I do. The job itself, what do you personally 00:06:45.910 --> 00:06:48.949 enjoy about working within that kind of infrastructure? 00:06:49.129 --> 00:06:51.889 Because I'm sure it's not as rigid as everyone 00:06:51.889 --> 00:06:55.670 makes it out to be. For me, I learned that being 00:06:55.670 --> 00:06:59.529 in a startup is you sometimes have to really 00:06:59.529 --> 00:07:02.269 go deep and do a lot at one time. And I realized 00:07:02.269 --> 00:07:04.889 there are people who are really good at building 00:07:04.889 --> 00:07:07.350 a ship. And there are people who are really good 00:07:07.350 --> 00:07:09.529 at steering a ship. And there are people who 00:07:09.529 --> 00:07:11.410 are good at steering the ship when you're about 00:07:11.410 --> 00:07:13.310 to hit an iceberg and you have to make quick 00:07:13.310 --> 00:07:15.509 decisions. Brilliant analogy. And I found that 00:07:15.509 --> 00:07:18.810 I'm very much the third of those types of leaders. 00:07:19.329 --> 00:07:22.709 I am a creative at heart. I am also good at math. 00:07:22.810 --> 00:07:26.930 So I did enjoy the conceptual piece of being 00:07:26.930 --> 00:07:29.689 a founder and an entrepreneur. But in actuality, 00:07:29.709 --> 00:07:33.209 I didn't enjoy it. And I think, and listen, everybody 00:07:33.209 --> 00:07:37.779 is a chat GPT. doctor now for themselves. So 00:07:37.779 --> 00:07:41.040 I would say that I probably have a bit of undiagnosed 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.680 or self -diagnosed is maybe better ADHD. And 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:48.199 I always feel like my brain is going to 500 things 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:49.920 at once. And I've seen this through my whole 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.579 life. I mean, when I was in undergrad at university, 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:56.199 I did three degrees at the same time. And I always 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:58.279 say that if I had done one and I got a perfect 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:00.379 GPA, and if I had done one that I probably would 00:08:00.379 --> 00:08:03.800 have had like a 2 .0 rather than a 4 .0 because 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:06.959 to have 800 different things that are taking 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:09.720 my attention span and while you might think that 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:11.920 in an entrepreneurial environment that that would 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:13.819 really be suitable because you're doing everything 00:08:13.819 --> 00:08:17.180 yourself the reality is you have to sit down 00:08:17.180 --> 00:08:20.759 and focus and get the books done or you know, 00:08:20.779 --> 00:08:22.420 get through the list of whatever you need to 00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:25.199 do. And that actually doesn't suit the way I 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.399 think. So being a CEO of an established organization 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.480 actually does suit the way that I am built because 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:34.639 I can jump from, you know, chatting with you 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.620 to talking about our development of our spring 00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:41.139 launch of eyeliners. Or right after that, I might 00:08:41.139 --> 00:08:43.639 be talking about, you know, the marketing strategy 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:46.000 for something we're working on. And so my brain 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.129 is always shifting and I was think of my brain 00:08:49.129 --> 00:08:52.610 as like a big band of rubber bands, big ball 00:08:52.610 --> 00:08:54.570 of rubber bands, and they're pinging all over, 00:08:54.570 --> 00:08:56.750 but they always ping and come back to the center, 00:08:56.769 --> 00:08:59.409 so they connect to a core. And so I think that 00:08:59.409 --> 00:09:01.769 one of the things that is a strength of mine 00:09:01.769 --> 00:09:03.929 is that I can see patterns in the chaos because 00:09:03.929 --> 00:09:06.649 everything is kind of coming back together. And 00:09:06.649 --> 00:09:09.629 so I enjoy that about being in a larger corporate 00:09:09.629 --> 00:09:13.029 environment because every team is another bunch 00:09:13.029 --> 00:09:15.389 of rubber bands, you know, kind of connecting 00:09:15.389 --> 00:09:19.370 to that big ball. It just, it suits who I am. 00:09:19.370 --> 00:09:22.769 And I, I think I would struggle being in, you 00:09:22.769 --> 00:09:24.769 know, a smaller business that was like, call 00:09:24.769 --> 00:09:27.509 it 20 or 30 million kind of in turnover, just 00:09:27.509 --> 00:09:29.990 because the infrastructure would be so much smaller 00:09:29.990 --> 00:09:34.409 that I don't think it would, it would suit the 00:09:34.409 --> 00:09:37.029 way that I work. Like your brain needs that kind 00:09:37.029 --> 00:09:38.970 of Rubik's cube to constantly be sort of looking 00:09:38.970 --> 00:09:41.769 at the different moving parts. Constantly. And 00:09:41.769 --> 00:09:45.629 it's, it's where I shine more than when I'm trying 00:09:45.629 --> 00:09:49.429 to do it all myself or do more of it myself. 00:09:50.129 --> 00:09:52.490 And why, you know, first of all, why Stila? What 00:09:52.490 --> 00:09:55.389 do you personally love about the brand? And what 00:09:55.389 --> 00:09:57.750 was it that drew you to it? Yeah, well, there's 00:09:57.750 --> 00:10:01.649 there's two things. I'll talk about Stila specifically, 00:10:01.649 --> 00:10:04.330 but in general, I think when you're going to 00:10:04.330 --> 00:10:07.250 be a CEO, there are some people who are like, 00:10:07.250 --> 00:10:09.830 I just like to lead. I don't care if I'm selling 00:10:09.830 --> 00:10:14.149 rug chemicals or I'm selling, you know, lawnmowers. 00:10:14.230 --> 00:10:17.700 I just like to lead for me. I actually want to 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:20.600 lead something that I believe in, that I believe 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.860 has a reason to exist and that has some special 00:10:24.860 --> 00:10:28.720 point of differentiation. And so I had been contacted 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.100 for several different CEO roles throughout my 00:10:31.100 --> 00:10:33.779 career. And I always ask myself, number one, 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:35.539 can I get excited about the brand? And I'll talk 00:10:35.539 --> 00:10:40.080 about that in a minute. But number two, does 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:43.240 this brand deserve to exist? And sometimes I 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:45.440 think, you know what? I'm not sure. I'm not sure 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.379 I can even turn this thing around. But for Stila, 00:10:48.899 --> 00:10:53.000 when I got called for it, I thought, huh, you 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:56.320 know, it probably does deserve to exist because 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:59.080 in at least North America, it has the number 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:02.960 one liquid eyeliner. It has, when I talked to 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:04.840 friends, they all said, oh my God, I love Stila. 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:06.940 And those are the, those of my friends who weren't 00:11:06.940 --> 00:11:09.700 using Stila had said, I haven't thought about 00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:11.679 it in a long time. But the point being that there 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.500 was nobody who had any kind of negative emotion 00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:16.919 around the brand. So I said, okay, there's no 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.539 negative emotion. There is a hero skew. I can 00:11:19.539 --> 00:11:21.539 do something with that. And then from a personal 00:11:21.539 --> 00:11:24.000 level, I have a strong connection to Stila because 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:27.360 when I was in my mid twenties and the, you know, 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:30.980 around the turn of the millennium, I I had my 00:11:30.980 --> 00:11:33.139 first big paycheck and I thought, ooh, it's time 00:11:33.139 --> 00:11:35.539 for me to move up from the drugstore brands. 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:38.740 And the first brand that I bought was Stila because 00:11:38.740 --> 00:11:41.480 Stila at that time was just the coolest thing 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:43.379 in the world. And I wanted to be a Stila girl. 00:11:43.460 --> 00:11:45.720 And so I remember that's when still department 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:49.159 stores were places where you would buy a lot 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:51.360 of makeup. You know, today that's still somewhat 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:53.480 the case, but there are a lot of specialty retailers 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:56.340 that were either not in existence or much earlier 00:11:56.340 --> 00:11:59.840 in their expansion journeys. And I bought Stila. 00:11:59.659 --> 00:12:03.240 And I felt so cool. To me, it was like a sign 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:07.120 that I had made it. I could trade up, you know, 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.039 because makeup is something that helps transform 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:12.899 you, makes you feel confident, and makes you 00:12:12.899 --> 00:12:16.080 feel beautiful. And so that emotion was very 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.980 much tied to, you know, my memory of becoming 00:12:18.980 --> 00:12:21.799 an adult. And so I had that personal connection 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:24.220 to Steel. So all those three things made me think, 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:26.679 you know what, this could be a really interesting 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:29.120 role for me. And also when you love the brand 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:32.340 and you believe in it, it makes it feel less 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:35.779 like a sacrifice when you're up at 6 a .m. to 00:12:35.779 --> 00:12:37.779 do something that needs to be taken care of. 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:40.399 It's almost, I don't want to say fun, sometimes 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.679 it is, but at least it doesn't feel like, oh 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:45.080 my God, I have to go work on something that I 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:50.490 just simply don't. Yeah, it must have been nice 00:12:50.490 --> 00:12:52.149 that you had that personal connections or grew 00:12:52.149 --> 00:12:54.490 up with the brand because you represent a lot 00:12:54.490 --> 00:12:56.629 of the people that you're actually targeting. 00:12:57.350 --> 00:13:00.750 And what made you decide that, you know, it was 00:13:00.750 --> 00:13:03.429 time to refresh the brand's positioning and what 00:13:03.429 --> 00:13:06.320 did you want that to achieve? Well, that was 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:09.019 obvious that it needed to be done before I even 00:13:09.019 --> 00:13:11.860 joined Stila. You know, I think a brand over 00:13:11.860 --> 00:13:15.120 31 years goes through a lot of iterations of 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:18.679 itself, different leaders. The industry landscape 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.360 has changed a little bit. And I always think, 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.440 you know, a person and I know you have a young 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:29.779 child and their core personality is already formed, 00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:32.220 but they're going to evolve and they're going 00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:35.230 to change. So that inner seed will stay the same, 00:13:35.669 --> 00:13:38.169 but who they are, how they express themselves 00:13:38.169 --> 00:13:41.370 will evolve over time. So that's what I like 00:13:41.370 --> 00:13:43.029 to think first and foremost, when you're going 00:13:43.029 --> 00:13:45.090 through kind of like a, how are you going to 00:13:45.090 --> 00:13:47.690 reframe the whole brand positioning? Tricky balance. 00:13:48.289 --> 00:13:50.309 It is, because it's like, what part of that seed 00:13:50.309 --> 00:13:52.309 needs to stay the same? And when I think about 00:13:52.309 --> 00:13:54.529 Janine LaBelle, who, you know, was a brilliant 00:13:54.529 --> 00:13:56.809 celebrity makeup artist and the founder of Stila, 00:13:57.389 --> 00:14:00.679 she, you know, I can't, I can't. put words in 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.460 her mouth to say what her vision was. But if 00:14:03.460 --> 00:14:06.179 I had to try to guess, it would be about bringing, 00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:09.100 you know, the best of high performance backstage 00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:11.879 beauty to everyone and making it accessible and 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.799 making it joyful. And I think that this is where 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:17.580 Stila really stood out was it had a bit of whimsy 00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:21.720 to it. You know, the illustrations. the playfulness 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.840 of the packaging itself, the innovation in packaging. 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:27.679 I mean, when we launched the Plumping Lip Glaze, 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.759 which was under her leadership, she actually 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.360 hired an engineer. And that click, click, click 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.639 sound is something that I think is really embedded 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.899 in a lot of women's memories of, you know, early 00:14:39.899 --> 00:14:42.340 day Stila. So there were pieces of that that 00:14:42.340 --> 00:14:45.220 I knew were integral to the core, that seed that 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:48.080 I talked about of the brand. But the landscape 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:51.919 has evolved and there are so many You know artistry 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.519 led brands now the competition is more fierce 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.320 and so when I brought on our new chief marketing 00:14:57.320 --> 00:15:00.620 officer Mary Rodriguez I said we really we really 00:15:00.620 --> 00:15:02.519 need to come up with a brand mission a brand 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.139 statement And and communicate that make sure 00:15:05.139 --> 00:15:07.220 everybody in the organization knows it so that 00:15:07.220 --> 00:15:10.799 then that becomes obvious To everyone so we kept 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:14.100 some of those core elements of high performance, 00:15:14.419 --> 00:15:18.679 artistry, joyfulness in the packaging, which 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.179 did require us to kind of pivot a little bit 00:15:21.179 --> 00:15:23.759 because they think that it had become much more 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:26.279 like the other brands, kind of, I don't want 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:27.980 to say soulless, because I don't think it was 00:15:27.980 --> 00:15:31.720 ever soulless, but it was a little bit more me 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.019 too in its presentation. And you have to think 00:15:35.019 --> 00:15:38.799 about, you can't just make a kind of a 180 change, 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:43.549 right? So how do we think about What happens 00:15:43.549 --> 00:15:46.909 in product development? What happens in the way 00:15:46.909 --> 00:15:50.649 we speak about the brand in our marketing assets? 00:15:51.090 --> 00:15:54.669 How about how we shoot it? How do we even, you 00:15:54.669 --> 00:15:57.509 know, create the packaging? And so it's a little 00:15:57.509 --> 00:16:00.669 bit about, you know, evolution, not revolution. 00:16:01.230 --> 00:16:03.090 It's just that we're trying to speed evolution 00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:06.169 up just a little bit. Yeah, just listening to 00:16:06.169 --> 00:16:08.360 you is kind of... I just feel so overwhelming. 00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:11.100 I mean, just that, you know, I guess you were 00:16:11.100 --> 00:16:12.519 saying earlier, it's kind of how your brain works. 00:16:12.659 --> 00:16:14.899 But I imagine it must be just no, you know, easy, 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:16.779 no easy ship to turn around when you've, like 00:16:16.779 --> 00:16:18.960 you say, you've got all this NPD and packaging 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.580 and all these different sort of strands and trying 00:16:21.580 --> 00:16:24.419 to get them all together in one cohesive narrative. 00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:28.179 I guess that's, that's the tricky thing. Yeah, 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:30.740 which is why I was saying that being a turnaround 00:16:30.740 --> 00:16:33.240 CEO is in some ways is kind of similar to being 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:34.820 an entrepreneur because you're still trying to 00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:36.639 figure that out. You're pivoting all the time. 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:39.639 You are doing so much yourself, but you're also 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:41.600 leading, you know, 800 different things that 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:43.379 are happening that you have to be very close 00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:45.879 to. And so there are some similarities despite 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:47.980 the fact that, you know, thankfully I do have 00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:51.340 a nice infrastructure. It's a question that I 00:16:51.340 --> 00:16:53.360 feel like we shouldn't even be asking these days 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.279 But when it comes to being a woman in leadership, 00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:58.419 you know in senior leadership spaces I imagine 00:16:58.419 --> 00:17:00.740 that you're often in the minority for some women. 00:17:00.740 --> 00:17:02.659 I know it's not even an issue and stuff So what 00:17:02.659 --> 00:17:05.980 is your experience been in that respect? You 00:17:05.980 --> 00:17:09.119 know, I I have mixed feelings about it because 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:12.339 I think everything you just said is true I am 00:17:12.339 --> 00:17:15.210 sick of trying to play the victim, be the victim, 00:17:15.869 --> 00:17:18.450 blame things on how it's so hard as a female. 00:17:18.549 --> 00:17:21.589 But at the same time, there is still a little 00:17:21.589 --> 00:17:23.710 bit of a bias. I think it's a little bit less 00:17:23.710 --> 00:17:25.970 in beauty. There are a lot of really brilliant 00:17:25.970 --> 00:17:30.369 female beauty CEOs out there who provide a lot 00:17:30.369 --> 00:17:33.710 of inspiration for me. But I also do think it's 00:17:33.710 --> 00:17:36.190 hard. And it is true that when I look at my equity 00:17:36.190 --> 00:17:40.250 stakeholder team, there isn't a female. in that 00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:43.369 team. I do have one advisor who's wonderful, 00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:46.430 who is a female. And when I look at some of my 00:17:46.430 --> 00:17:48.509 past roles, yes, for sure. And I can tell you 00:17:48.509 --> 00:17:52.210 that being a female and being a small female 00:17:52.210 --> 00:17:56.130 actually has probably been detrimental to me 00:17:56.130 --> 00:17:58.750 in the past in interviewing and getting the roles. 00:17:58.829 --> 00:18:03.390 And I have been flat out told, we love you. I'll 00:18:03.390 --> 00:18:07.759 give you one example, but. Several years ago, 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:10.500 but less than a decade. I was interviewing for 00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:13.579 a multi -billion dollar company and private equity 00:18:13.579 --> 00:18:16.059 backed and it came down to me and one other candidate 00:18:16.059 --> 00:18:18.819 and I presented to the board and they were like, 00:18:18.819 --> 00:18:21.319 this is brilliant. Can we have this presentation? 00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:24.299 And you know, they're like, we really, this, 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:27.119 this just feels right. Let us discuss internally. 00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:30.859 I think it was a Thursday. Yeah. And then on 00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:33.220 Monday they called and they said, listen, you 00:18:33.220 --> 00:18:35.240 know, we're just looking at our franchise network 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:37.079 and our group of, you know, owners and we're 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:40.400 just worried that you don't look credible enough. 00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:45.980 And they ended up hiring kind of a middle -aged 00:18:45.980 --> 00:18:49.460 white male. And six months later, he was out 00:18:49.460 --> 00:18:51.240 of the job and they called me back and they said, 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.569 listen, we made a mistake. are you interested? 00:18:54.670 --> 00:18:56.730 And I just said, no, thank you. You didn't believe 00:18:56.730 --> 00:18:59.730 in me. You weren't willing to take risk on me 00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:01.930 when you, it wasn't even necessarily a risk, 00:19:01.990 --> 00:19:04.650 but you weren't willing to back me when you had 00:19:04.650 --> 00:19:07.390 the chance. And now I feel like I'm on your B 00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:09.880 list. So absolutely not. It was like, I don't 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:12.059 want to come in and clean this guy's mess when 00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:14.180 you could have just brought me in from the get 00:19:14.180 --> 00:19:15.819 -go. And it did feel like it was the right thing 00:19:15.819 --> 00:19:18.000 for me until they said that. And I realized, 00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:20.180 not only did I not want that job, I actually 00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:22.539 won't work for that private equity firm if they 00:19:22.539 --> 00:19:25.200 ever contacted me. I think a lot of women are 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:26.880 kind of put off by corporate roles because this 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.640 sort of this fear mongering of Well, you're gonna 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.079 be the only woman in the room and you're gonna 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:34.859 be you know victimized and nx1z and I don't know 00:19:34.859 --> 00:19:36.460 from my from my own personal experience I find 00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:39.579 women more intimidating men to be honest Sometimes 00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:41.940 you know and I do think that you know I'm I'm 00:19:41.940 --> 00:19:44.559 kind of in between these generations of where 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:47.500 you know I didn't have a lot of female CEO role 00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:50.559 models to look up to I think that the kind of 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:52.420 generation coming into the workforce now does 00:19:52.420 --> 00:19:56.480 have a lot of They do have a lot. And so, yeah, 00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:59.960 I mean, I do think that a lot of women who are 00:19:59.960 --> 00:20:02.869 my age or older did have to be a little bit ruthless 00:20:02.869 --> 00:20:05.089 to to climb the corporate ladder and get where 00:20:05.089 --> 00:20:07.349 they are. And fundamentally, I'm just not like 00:20:07.349 --> 00:20:11.130 that. And I, you know, I don't I don't fit in 00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:12.809 organizations that are like that. And I know 00:20:12.809 --> 00:20:14.829 that very much about myself. But there definitely 00:20:14.829 --> 00:20:17.329 are and still younger women, older women today 00:20:17.329 --> 00:20:19.130 that are like that. And I think it's just like, 00:20:19.130 --> 00:20:21.450 you know, people are people. Yes. Is it a little 00:20:21.450 --> 00:20:24.349 harder as a female? Sometimes, yes. You know, 00:20:24.349 --> 00:20:26.730 as we've talked about, I've certainly come across 00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:28.890 that and I'm certainly cognizant of it. But at 00:20:28.890 --> 00:20:31.470 the same time, you know, I I don't think that 00:20:31.470 --> 00:20:34.329 it has, it's inhibiting me now. I don't think, 00:20:34.589 --> 00:20:37.109 you know, I mean, I'm almost grateful that I 00:20:37.109 --> 00:20:40.369 had that experience because it tipped me off 00:20:40.369 --> 00:20:42.109 that it wasn't gonna be the right place for me. 00:20:42.309 --> 00:20:45.069 No, exactly. I think people forget that these 00:20:45.069 --> 00:20:47.269 things are a two -way street and you're interviewing 00:20:47.269 --> 00:20:49.910 them as much as the other way around. Has there 00:20:49.910 --> 00:20:52.710 ever been a moment where, you know, when you've 00:20:52.710 --> 00:20:55.410 operated in these high -stake roles, you've felt 00:20:55.410 --> 00:20:58.190 like, okay, I just feel quite overwhelmed and 00:20:58.190 --> 00:21:01.369 I'm not sure I can sort of You know do this kind 00:21:01.369 --> 00:21:03.269 of role anymore? I know you mentioned that when 00:21:03.269 --> 00:21:05.769 you started your athleisure wear brand That was 00:21:05.769 --> 00:21:07.410 more of a practical decision because your husband 00:21:07.410 --> 00:21:10.049 had moved to Australia. So that was related to 00:21:10.049 --> 00:21:13.670 that but um Yes, is there ever any been any other? 00:21:14.289 --> 00:21:17.150 Sort of situation or any situation where you 00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:23.170 felt that this kind of role isn't for me So I 00:21:23.170 --> 00:21:27.410 haven't felt that as as a CEO There are certainly 00:21:27.410 --> 00:21:30.039 times where I feel overwhelmed But again, it 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:32.740 goes back to, all right, here's the vision, here's 00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:35.319 the mission. How do I trust the process? It feels 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:38.440 horrible now. Power through. It will get better. 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:42.720 But I will say that I think... being an entrepreneur, 00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:46.720 I certainly felt that. And I think that the mental 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.799 and emotional state of an entrepreneur can be 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.500 much more variable. People don't talk about it 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:54.220 enough. I was just saying to a previous podcast 00:21:54.220 --> 00:21:56.000 guest, people don't talk about mental health 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:57.880 when it comes to entrepreneurship, but it's so 00:21:57.880 --> 00:21:59.500 important, isn't it? And if you'll let me, I 00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:01.319 will tell you for a few minutes about what it 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:03.859 was like, because, you know, I talked earlier 00:22:03.859 --> 00:22:07.650 about you know, thinking that I was, I don't 00:22:07.650 --> 00:22:09.589 want to say I thought I was so great, but I had, 00:22:09.789 --> 00:22:13.170 I think, too high of confidence that, of course, 00:22:13.190 --> 00:22:15.349 it's going to go great. I've been a CEO of these 00:22:15.349 --> 00:22:19.450 big businesses, and, you know, that is not the 00:22:19.450 --> 00:22:22.869 case. And so, you know, there was a point when 00:22:22.869 --> 00:22:27.279 I moved to Australia that and I'll be very open 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.000 about this, where I had started Urban Savage 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.599 and I didn't have many friends there. And my 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:38.359 husband had a high travel job. And there was 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:40.940 a period where my first shipment of apparel got 00:22:40.940 --> 00:22:43.339 lost at sea. I didn't know yet that I needed 00:22:43.339 --> 00:22:45.900 to have the business insurance. I'm 100 % self 00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:47.940 -funded. I put seven figures of my own savings 00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:52.210 into this. You know, I remember it was pouring. 00:22:52.410 --> 00:22:55.789 I was so depressed. And I was standing outside 00:22:55.789 --> 00:22:58.549 on the balcony of our apartment in Surrey Hills 00:22:58.549 --> 00:23:02.829 in Sydney. And I just, I said, Oh my God, I can't 00:23:02.829 --> 00:23:07.099 go on. and I called my husband and I said, I'm 00:23:07.099 --> 00:23:09.819 not a suicidal person, but I don't feel like 00:23:09.819 --> 00:23:12.440 I can even wake up any longer. I can't go on. 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:15.180 I was standing on the balcony and I don't even 00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:17.359 think he got it. He was in Thailand at a party 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:18.660 and he's like, well, we'll talk about it tomorrow. 00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:20.400 I'm like, I don't think you understand anything 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:24.779 that that insane pressure is something that you 00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:27.680 don't have as much. in a corporate role, because 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:29.559 you can share a little bit of the stress, not 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:31.559 all, because as I said, the buck stops with you 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:34.059 as a CEO. But as the founder, when you're self 00:23:34.059 --> 00:23:36.339 -funded, I think it can be really overwhelming. 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.119 And since then, I was talking to a friend who 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:40.240 had had a chocolate shop in Manhattan in the 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.240 East Village. And she said she got to a point 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.440 where she was hiding behind the counter because 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:46.920 she didn't want to talk to her customers. She 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.720 loved the product, but it was just so overwhelming. 00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:54.160 And that really resonated with me. And I realized 00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:56.930 at that point, it's not that I can't handle the 00:23:56.930 --> 00:24:00.829 stress. It's that I'm not suited to be running 00:24:00.829 --> 00:24:04.650 alone, you know, and I think, you know, I can't 00:24:04.650 --> 00:24:06.390 remember, maybe it was the interview with Colette, 00:24:06.390 --> 00:24:09.109 maybe it was actually with with Anna Teal, but 00:24:09.109 --> 00:24:11.529 that you talked about flying a plane, why it's 00:24:11.529 --> 00:24:14.230 still being built. And I think, you know, I'm 00:24:14.230 --> 00:24:17.349 not good at that. But being in a turnaround, 00:24:17.829 --> 00:24:20.359 or, you know, another company is like, flying 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:23.279 a plane that's been around for so long that it's 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.059 got little pieces you need to have held together 00:24:25.059 --> 00:24:27.400 with duct tape. And then how do you continue 00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:29.980 to fly that plane? It's not like, oh, this is 00:24:29.980 --> 00:24:31.599 just a big, beautiful plane. It's already built 00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:33.299 and it can just fly. There are pieces falling 00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:37.619 apart, right? And it's kind of like a little 00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:39.680 different because the plane's already built. 00:24:39.700 --> 00:24:43.880 You got the whole crew. And so I felt like here 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:46.500 I was trying to do too much building this plane 00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:51.819 while I was flying it. I had zero. support. And 00:24:51.819 --> 00:24:54.940 that just wasn't for me. And, you know, I did 00:24:54.940 --> 00:24:57.420 feel like it was too much. And it really does, 00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:00.900 you know, I think now I made so many mistakes 00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:04.400 as a founder. And I think if I ever did it again, 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:07.680 which I'm a bit reticent to do, you know, I've 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:09.720 I learned a lot from that. But actually, I learned 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:11.940 so much that I've taken back into my corporate 00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:15.099 career that I still find it was a valuable experience. 00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:17.940 And I just I think I'm so fortunate that Urban 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:20.099 Savage still is thriving and exists today. and 00:25:20.099 --> 00:25:22.700 it has a team of people that work on it so that 00:25:22.700 --> 00:25:25.859 it allows me to still own it. But I spend very 00:25:25.859 --> 00:25:28.579 minimal time doing that because my focus is Stela. 00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:31.160 Yeah, I think there's a tendency to romanticize 00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:33.730 founder life and entrepreneur. entrepreneurialism 00:25:33.730 --> 00:25:35.349 and it's like people all people joke or people 00:25:35.349 --> 00:25:37.890 minimize minimize that idea of like oh it's like 00:25:37.890 --> 00:25:39.490 trying to stay calm while your house is burning 00:25:39.490 --> 00:25:41.309 down and nothing that you know it's funny but 00:25:41.309 --> 00:25:43.769 at the same time people underestimate how mentally 00:25:43.769 --> 00:25:46.410 risky not just financially risky it is and i've 00:25:46.410 --> 00:25:48.190 definitely been you know the similar situation 00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:50.490 to yourself where you're trying to sort of strategize 00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:52.430 and your brain's like what what can i do to stop 00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:54.230 this stress what what can i do and your brain's 00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:57.240 like well we could what it's that kind of not 00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:58.559 that you would ever do it, but the thought pops 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.480 up and it's just like, here's a solution. It's 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:02.480 just like, oh my God. Yeah. And having that network 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:04.859 is so critical. You know, if I ever did it again, 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:07.799 A, I think I would not do it in a place where 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:10.059 I didn't have a built -in social network that 00:26:10.059 --> 00:26:11.940 was like, you know, I couldn't even call my friends 00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:14.779 sometimes. It was like such a big time difference. 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.900 I had no support. But I also think that if you 00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:20.980 do bring in investors, you already have, and 00:26:20.980 --> 00:26:23.000 I'll say one more thing that I've actually never 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.579 talked about this with anyone before, but I do 00:26:25.579 --> 00:26:29.759 think that Having investors brings a level of 00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.559 support and professionalism. But also, there 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.380 is a mentality for me that because I was completely 00:26:35.380 --> 00:26:38.339 self -funded, if I didn't do something, I was 00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:39.740 like, oh, it doesn't matter. I'm just hurting 00:26:39.740 --> 00:26:42.259 my own finances. I'm not hurting anybody else's. 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.700 So I think that when you've taken on that funding, 00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:49.660 you have such an extreme responsibility to everyone 00:26:49.660 --> 00:26:55.059 else that it can push you. But also you have 00:26:55.059 --> 00:26:57.740 that support. And so I think if I ever went back 00:26:57.740 --> 00:27:01.059 into that entrepreneurship journey again, I would 00:27:01.059 --> 00:27:03.140 just do it very differently. Reflecting on what 00:27:03.140 --> 00:27:05.140 you've just said, and thank you for sharing that. 00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:07.680 We really appreciate it. People get asked about 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.259 imposter syndrome, and I'm somebody that tends 00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:12.220 to get in my own way. You strike me as somebody 00:27:12.220 --> 00:27:14.119 who doesn't get in their own way, which is brilliant. 00:27:14.339 --> 00:27:18.099 Have you always been like that? And if you haven't, 00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:21.640 what's the secret? Yes. Very self -serving question 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:25.319 now. I think that there are natural born leaders, 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:28.500 but I also think that you can learn to be a good 00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:31.240 leader, a good manager. But I think back, you 00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:35.099 know, at my own self as a child and we, you know, 00:27:35.339 --> 00:27:38.640 I grew up in Illinois and in the Midwest and 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:42.849 we had a whole group of. neighborhood kids. And 00:27:42.849 --> 00:27:46.190 I remember even at like 10 or 11 years old, even 00:27:46.190 --> 00:27:48.309 the older kids I would be orchestrating in the 00:27:48.309 --> 00:27:50.789 neighborhood Fort building contest. I think I've 00:27:50.789 --> 00:27:53.650 just always been very much like, okay, here's 00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:55.990 the vision. Here's what needs to get done. Here's 00:27:55.990 --> 00:27:57.970 who here's, you know, this person is best at 00:27:57.970 --> 00:27:59.710 doing this. I'm not strong enough to lift all 00:27:59.710 --> 00:28:02.089 of this stuff. So they've got to do that. And, 00:28:02.309 --> 00:28:04.630 you know, I've been good at convincing people 00:28:04.630 --> 00:28:08.890 to come along on that journey with me. So I just 00:28:08.890 --> 00:28:12.230 think that, you know, naturally being. a leader 00:28:12.230 --> 00:28:14.410 does suit me. I won't say that I didn't have 00:28:14.410 --> 00:28:16.710 imposter syndrome for for a little bit. I mean, 00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:19.609 I think I had it more when I came out of business 00:28:19.609 --> 00:28:21.529 school. So, you know, a lot of people go to business 00:28:21.529 --> 00:28:24.569 school, but they went to undergrad for business 00:28:24.569 --> 00:28:27.630 or, you know, something. I went to Northwestern 00:28:27.630 --> 00:28:31.329 University Kellogg. And I remember when they 00:28:31.329 --> 00:28:33.789 were introducing us and we had kind of like this 00:28:33.789 --> 00:28:36.589 orientation weekend and they were like, oh, 60 00:28:36.589 --> 00:28:39.349 percent of you had a business undergrad and 38 00:28:39.349 --> 00:28:41.619 percent of you had, you know, an engineering 00:28:41.619 --> 00:28:43.940 or science background and you know one point 00:28:44.089 --> 00:28:47.069 8 % of you had, you know, a political science 00:28:47.069 --> 00:28:48.630 or whatever background they're like, and 0 .2 00:28:48.630 --> 00:28:51.490 % of you had other. And I realized I was the 00:28:51.490 --> 00:28:55.329 entire other. And because I had two bachelor's 00:28:55.329 --> 00:28:57.710 of fine arts and one bachelor of liberal arts. 00:28:57.769 --> 00:29:00.509 And so I was like, wow, I'm different. And I 00:29:00.509 --> 00:29:02.329 had a little bit of imposter syndrome there. 00:29:02.369 --> 00:29:04.430 And then when I left business school and I went 00:29:04.430 --> 00:29:06.730 to Boston Consulting Group for a handful of years, 00:29:07.009 --> 00:29:09.369 you know, I was again, I was like, wow, I'm this 00:29:09.369 --> 00:29:11.990 creative, but I happen to be good at math. And, 00:29:12.069 --> 00:29:15.440 you know, I think that that taught me a lot about, 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:17.359 you know, bringing a different perspective, but 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:20.200 being comfortable in my own skin. And so, you 00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:22.660 know, I don't, I think we all have that at certain 00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:27.400 points, but I don't really have that much of 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:31.440 it anymore. No, I think it is interesting that 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:33.980 even when you're sort of developing your career, 00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:36.279 you develop yourself as a person as well, don't 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:38.880 you? And I think that's, that's something that 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:40.279 I think often gets overlooked when people kind 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:42.420 of separate like business and personal life. 00:29:42.500 --> 00:29:44.940 Well, actually, it's, you know, that I had this 00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:46.279 sort of saying that you can't, you know, your 00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:47.700 business is only as big as your self esteem. 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:53.039 And I think that's very And finally, going back 00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:55.579 to Steeler, and I'll let you go to appreciate 00:29:55.579 --> 00:29:58.400 that you're a very busy lady. What is your kind 00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:00.759 of ultimate, you know, obviously you've been 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:02.579 instrumental in turning the brand around and 00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:04.980 its new, you know, its new incarnation. What 00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:08.339 is, you know, what's next for the brand? Do you 00:30:08.339 --> 00:30:12.160 have a five -year vision or are you sort of seeing 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.359 how things go and what's, yeah, what's the plan? 00:30:16.180 --> 00:30:19.930 You know, a little bit of both. I think we're 00:30:19.930 --> 00:30:21.970 still early in that turnaround journey. I mean, 00:30:21.970 --> 00:30:26.549 I'm really, I'm so pleased to say that at least 00:30:26.549 --> 00:30:30.130 in the US market and in some of our key markets, 00:30:30.390 --> 00:30:34.130 we've been up every single month this calendar 00:30:34.130 --> 00:30:37.990 year on retail sales. And so, you know, I think 00:30:37.990 --> 00:30:43.269 that's a real testament to the team really implementing 00:30:43.269 --> 00:30:45.230 and making, you know, good decisions. I'm not 00:30:45.230 --> 00:30:49.470 saying me, but the whole team. They've been incredible. 00:30:51.009 --> 00:30:54.230 That said, we still have plenty of lift to do. 00:30:54.450 --> 00:30:57.089 I mean, when you look at like a gondola, so if 00:30:57.089 --> 00:30:59.950 you go to Selfridges, for example, you can only 00:30:59.950 --> 00:31:03.430 fit, call it 110 SKUs on a single gondola unit. 00:31:03.910 --> 00:31:06.910 And so you can't turn that over all at one time, 00:31:06.910 --> 00:31:09.490 right? Because the retailers only have so much 00:31:09.490 --> 00:31:12.259 open to buy that they can allocate. you can only 00:31:12.259 --> 00:31:14.619 develop so much, it's costly to develop, and 00:31:14.619 --> 00:31:16.720 you want to do it thoughtfully. So we're still 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.400 in the process of optimizing our assortment, 00:31:19.859 --> 00:31:21.799 really building that brand. I think, you know, 00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:26.000 last year was a focus on reminding people why 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.960 Steele is so great, and even that Steele is still 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:31.539 here, and our CMO, Mary, did a whole campaign 00:31:31.539 --> 00:31:34.500 around, you know, making, poking fun at ourselves. 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.759 Like, Steele here was the hashtag, and really 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:39.619 trying to say, yeah, where we've been, yeah, 00:31:39.619 --> 00:31:41.819 we've been a little quiet, we are still the number 00:31:41.819 --> 00:31:43.799 one liquid eyeliner brand and here we are and 00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:45.819 we're more allowed and we're more proud than 00:31:45.819 --> 00:31:48.930 we've been so it's really kind of building on 00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:52.670 that, continuing to evolve that portfolio, particularly 00:31:52.670 --> 00:31:56.069 around categories where we have huge credibility, 00:31:56.869 --> 00:31:59.309 really driving the hero and everything and kind 00:31:59.309 --> 00:32:02.950 of that halo around that hero and continuing 00:32:02.950 --> 00:32:06.069 to refine our brand positioning. Like I said, 00:32:06.170 --> 00:32:08.450 you know, life and people are in evolution and 00:32:08.450 --> 00:32:10.950 brands need to be too. And I know we're getting 00:32:10.950 --> 00:32:13.210 close to time, but when I think about brands 00:32:13.210 --> 00:32:16.190 who haven't had to kind of go through an entire 00:32:16.190 --> 00:32:18.700 revamp, there are only a few that have kind of 00:32:18.700 --> 00:32:21.000 maintained that upward trajectory their entire 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:23.180 life cycle. And in fact, I think the only ones 00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:26.769 I can think of are like Hermes and Chanel. Almost 00:32:26.769 --> 00:32:29.289 every other brand has kind of gone through, you 00:32:29.289 --> 00:32:34.269 know, cycles of peaks and valleys and redefinition 00:32:34.269 --> 00:32:36.769 of who they are and what they do. So we'll continue 00:32:36.769 --> 00:32:39.009 to refine. We'll continue to evolve and we'll 00:32:39.009 --> 00:32:42.190 continue to kind of grow up in this this phase. 00:32:42.329 --> 00:32:45.269 So I never I never know how to answer, you know, 00:32:45.329 --> 00:32:46.750 where's the brand or where are you going to be 00:32:46.750 --> 00:32:48.730 in five years? Because you can set that vision 00:32:48.730 --> 00:32:51.190 and say, you know, we want to be, you know, this 00:32:51.190 --> 00:32:53.910 joyful artistry brand. We want to be, you know, 00:32:54.029 --> 00:32:57.220 known for eye makeup. And we can set that as 00:32:57.220 --> 00:32:59.119 our mission, our vision, but exactly how we get 00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:02.680 there, you know, those pieces will continue to 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:04.960 evolve and fall in place. Yes. You don't have 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:06.940 a clear roadmap, but in a way that's kind of, 00:33:06.940 --> 00:33:08.299 you know, makes it more interesting, doesn't 00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:10.319 it? Yeah. And you know what they say about best 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:13.960 laid plans, right? Yes. No, for sure. Well, Michelle, 00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:16.539 I'll let you go, but thank you so much for chatting 00:33:16.539 --> 00:33:19.839 with me. Really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm 00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:35.970 so honored to be a guest on your podcast. I hope 00:33:35.970 --> 00:33:38.109 you enjoyed that episode. All links will be in 00:33:38.109 --> 00:33:41.329 the show notes and feel free to visit smartbeautycreative 00:33:41.329 --> 00:33:44.349 .com or visit us over on Instagram to find out 00:33:44.349 --> 00:33:46.750 more about what we do. And if you enjoyed listening, 00:33:47.170 --> 00:33:48.970 please don't forget to rate and review Smart 00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:51.490 Beauty on iTunes as it helps people find us. 00:33:51.829 --> 00:33:52.589 See you next time.