Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty Podcast.
I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist
and founder of copy led branding agency, Smart
Beauty Creative. Hello everyone. Now today's
episode is something a bit special. as it's our
first ever live recording which I'm super excited
to share with you. So back in October I hosted
a live panel discussion for British Beauty Week
in partnership with the British Beauty Council
and we hosted it at the gorgeous boutique Tallulah
lingerie in Islington North London which if you
haven't yet visited is a little slice of heaven
and the topic was the beauty archetypes of the
princess and the witch. and what they reveal
about how society views women, aging, and self
-expression. I was joined by four incredible
women who will all introduce themselves shortly.
We had a packed room, plenty of Prosecco, and
a really honest conversation about everything
from the witch trials to anti -aging, glamour
magic to why wearing red lipstick to walk the
dog is an act of rebellion. A quick note, this
was recorded live. So you'll hear some background
noise. The shop was on a main road so there are
sometimes a few cars outside and the occasional
drunk people wandering by and staring in through
the window like, oh what's going on here? And
the sound quality does vary a bit but I think
the conversation is well worth it. Huge thanks
to Nicola at Tallulah Lingerie and our other
sponsors including Yardley London, Coal Creatives,
Doctor Organic and Fluss Period Care. So without
further ado, really hope you enjoy this chat
about princesses, witches and everything in between.
So welcome everyone. Thank you for driving the
weather tonight to be with us. I'm Byla Levy.
I'm the founder of Smart Beauty Creative and
delighted to welcome you all at the gorgeous
Tallulah lingerie boutique. Some of you might
be familiar with it. Not your average British
Beauty Week event. We've got a panel talk and
it's a live recording of the podcast on the beauty
archetypes of the princess and the witch. So
like many of you... I've worked in the industry
for far too long. And it often gets, like the
beauty industry often gets a bad rap for being
a bit fickle or toxic. Or that we're kind of
submitting to the patriarchy and yeah, we're
all rolling our eyes. I'm sure we can agree that
there's far more to it than that. But it does
have its issues with like unrealistic beauty
ideals and age prejudice and things like that.
And I'm obsessed with fairy tales. So what they
say about our society and the role that beauty
plays within that. So things like Snow White,
Beauty and the Beast, Sook and Beauty, Spring
to Mind. So that got me thinking about the common
archetypes of the princess and the witch, which
I'm going to be discussing with my esteemed panelists.
So if you guys would like to quickly introduce
yourselves, or we do a much better job than I
can, Pia, would you like to start us off? Sure.
I'm Pia Long. I'm a 53 year old witch. In other
words, I'm a perfumer. I was born in Finland.
I moved to UK in 1992, went to London College
of Fashion. I've worked in fragrance since I
was 13 and I worked my way up from the shop floor
selling fragrance to becoming a training manager
to then becoming a product developer in marketing
and then eventually went into formulation and
became a perfumer. I've been a perfumer now for
nearly 17 years, and I've had my own business
for nine years, where we develop fragrances mostly
for other people, so contract manufacturers and
brands. And yeah, I've also just written a book.
I'm going to also claim my age. I think it's
really important that we do so. I'm 35. I have
been a practicing witch since I was 15. I started
my industry working in fashion and beauty. I've
worked in PR, journalism, archives, museums.
I have always had a deep fascination with words
and what it means to be human. I spent the last
eight years in the wellness space, so my book
called Take It In came out in 2022. I've been
speaking and doing lots of one -to -one sessions
with people across the world. And then this year,
I guess as part of, you know, the endless cycle
of being a witch, there are lots of deaths and
rebirths. So my rebirth this year was launching
my own consultancy called the CD Lab. And the
lab is all about working with brands and public
sector and creatives, just trying to add back
more depth, more meaning, more humanness, more
thought to cultivate richer connections with
each other. And I feel that's what the lab is
deeply, deeply missing. Maria. I'm Maria Satiriu.
I'm the founder of Silk London, a hairstylist
of over 37 years. I worked my way up from a very
young age, 16, I think. And during that time
I built up a really large clientele. And then
through a need of my own, I created a product
which my clients wanted. and then it just snowballed
from there. People just wanted the product. There
was nothing like it at the time. People in my
industry were not interested in my product. I
mixed heritage, so it was something I really
needed to develop for myself and for all women.
Then my daughter came on board and we rebranded
and created Silk London. That was nine years
ago and since then we've just developed other
products and created a really unique brand. It's
like a family. Because of my history in hairdressing,
I know what it means to the emotion of your hair
and what it means to every woman. So that's how
I built my brand on emotion. And that's it. And
she just recently became a grandma as well, so
yeah. I'm Lauren, I'm Winston and I'm a glamour
witch. And I work as a women's personal stylist.
coach within helping them to connect to their
femininity, their power, their magic, their sensuality,
their sexuality. I use glamour magic techniques
and help them to connect to presence and mindfulness
by introducing rituals and sometimes I include
dance movements as well because I train as a
dancer by trade. You're a ballerina, right? I
was, yes, and then I became a burlesque performer
as well, very much for burlesque because it's
so empowering for women. I'm also writing a book
as well, so it's wildly exciting to be here with
other women who are championing, I think, just
going out your own way on your own path, you
know, and not conforming to society's expectations
and not... just falling into that trap of doing
and being what you think everyone wants you to
be. And that's what it's all about really. Witchcraft
and magic. It's about taking your own path and
going against the grain. And yeah, there's a
lot of elements to glam that I think that people
don't quite understand. They might think that
initially it's all to do with the surface. Level
aesthetics, but it really is more than that.
It's to do with so much more It's to do with
your connection to your sexuality Your feminine
power your energy. I also do energy Was a fascinating
history you taught me the history but the meaning
behind the word glamour is actually I think it's
an ancient Scottish Witchcraft and the word glamour
means to literally cast a spell it's from the
Scottish word grammar grammar, as we know, to
be spelling, right? So it literally did mean
to cast the spells. And yes, in lieu of that
word, to cast a glamour was to cast a spell and
enchant others around you, to shift perception
of who you were, which is great because it can
work hand -in -hand with both. shifting the perception
of others of you, but also how you perceive yourself,
which I think is the most important thing. And
why do you think we're so drawn to the archetypes
of the princess and the witch? Giselle, maybe
you'd like to take that one because you told
me about this book, Caliban and the Witch, which
I've been really interested in. So yeah, why
do you think that society is still so fixated
with these two archetypes? I think we are quite
fixated with binaries anyway, and those can be
good or bad, right or wrong. clean or unclean
and a lot of that stems from both society at
large, history, also religion, the heaven and
hell complex and I think when we move women into
two boxes of the princess or the witch, it doesn't,
and very conveniently so, allow for the complexity
that lives in between. If you think about any
big issue we're facing, it always asks, well,
who benefits from that? And there are so many
systems that benefit from us believing that women
have to be one way or the other. And we see that
in TV shows, in films, in books. You're either
the virgin or you're the whore. There's no in
-between. And I remember I was doing some research
once on the dating advice that women get through
social media and TikTok and also dating books.
And it was, well, if you want to be chosen, then
you have to be the princess. And you have to
want to be rescued. And that's the only way you'll
be chosen. Men don't like whores. Men don't like
witches. And there's so much of that that's just
so pervasive in both loud and small ways. So
if we're constantly straddling the lines between
the two, We just don't get to be us. We don't
get to be authentic. We don't get to express
ourselves. And the ultimate way that women have
been suppressed historically is if you fall out
of line. So a great way to get women to stay
in line is to demonize or to romanticize one
or the other. So I think our biggest reclamation
as women is just to be unapologetically ourselves.
And if you do fall in with the princess archetype,
then... that's incredible but as long as it feels
like it's yours and you can own that. And what
do you think they say about the way that women,
the way that society views older women? I mean
Pia do you have any thoughts on that? Because
the witch is sort of seen as this kind of crone
but basically I think historically it was women
who had their own independent means and work
and had that agency and that's what kind of people
were so scared of. historic cases were in various
communities across the globe if women found the
means with which to set up a collective where
they did their handicraft as a collective lived
together or if there were women deciding not
to get married and then share a residence or
if there were women who worked as let's say authors
you know, they were immediately somehow cast
aside as suspicious, and obviously depending
on which time of history or which culture we're
talking about, there could sometimes be deadly
consequences too. And in modern society, the
funny thing is that we think that we're so civilised,
we think that we're so advanced, but a lot of
the sort of internalised biases about even policing
one another... That's one of the most pervasive
things that happens and especially with people
being keyboard warriors online when they think
that they're somehow detached from someone's
real feelings. Some of the comments, women can't
win. You're either too slutty, too skinny, too
sexy, too young, too childish or you're too fat
or you're somehow wrong shape or wrong clothes
or... you use too much Bojoks, not enough Bojoks.
Yeah, you're damned if you do, you're damned
if you don't. Exactly. So you really, really
can't win. And I think actually, in a way, realising
that completely empowers you. You sort of set
that aside and go, I can't win, so I'm not going
to play. Yeah. And there's this wonderful revelation
when you realise, I can do what I want, because
it doesn't matter what I do, I'll get judged
anyway. And that sort of thing gets easier when
you get a bit older as well, because When you
get older, the sort of the male gaze stops being
all that interested in you anyway. And then you
start realising that, well, instead of becoming
invisible, I could just become more myself. And
you realise that as a young woman, I think most
of us go through these phases where we're people
pleasing or we're trying to get chosen. That
was such a good phrase, actually, get chosen.
Because it took me until my 30s to realise I
need to do the choosing. I don't, why am I here
trying to be pleasing to a particular type of
man? Wait a minute, where's my choice in that?
And I think as you age, you sort of find that
confidence a bit more, but then society rejects
you for aging wrong. And one of the most powerful
things that you realize, I've had many near -death
experiences, unfortunately, and once you sort
of nearly die multiple times, you sort of realize
aging is such a privilege. I'm so lucky to have
these wrinkles. I'm so lucky to have these fat
rolls. I'm so lucky to have these chin hairs.
You know, I'm still alive. I very nearly wasn't
many times. So that is something you really should,
you know, I get to meet my aging face. That's
so powerful. And do you think that as we get
older, we can sort of relinquish the idea of
like the sort of princess archetype? Maria, what
do you think? Because this is idea of like princess
treatment. I mean, do you think that there's
something almost kind of empowering about that
in itself? Right. So my take, I can only speak
on what I have experienced. I've worked with
thousands of women during my career and I know
we talk about society and what it does to women.
what I experience is that women can do that to
women and that is the really upsetting thing
for me that we can be who we want to be it's
just accepting each other for who we are you
know so the princess and the witch I feel In
today's society, the positive is that the witches
are now becoming the wrong models, where the
younger princesses now can see themselves being
witches at an earlier age. Can we be both, do
you think? Do you think we have to choose between
one or the other? I think you can be both. I
feel like... Some of the biggest role models
now are witches. They are women who know themselves
and have got their careers for longer. They're
not dead at 60. I'm 60 and I'm working with young
women and we have so much more in common than
what women ever used to have. We buy clothes
in the same stores. We go to the same restaurants.
We can go to the same bars. So there has been
progression and I like to always take it on a
positive. Because there are things you can pick
out in a princess that everyone can relate to.
Who doesn't want to be taken care of? If not
all the time, some of the time. I definitely
do. I'll put my hand up. And then if you're a
witch, you know, I feel quite proud of myself
that I can sit and have a full conversation with
a princess. you know and I can gain so much from
her you know because I was born in a different
generation and she's teaching me you know so
we can learn from one another and take out what
we need to you know make us individuals stronger
and better people you know and when you become
that I think you become more comfortable in yourself
Definitely. I mean Laura, do you like the idea
of sort of being, I know you're very much about
embodying that sort of essence of the witch,
but do you like the idea of being a princess
as well? I imagine when you're a ballerina, that
idea resonates with you. I think we have to ensure
that all girls, whatever age range, feel okay
to move towards whichever camp or veer between
the two or go off in a completely different direction
as we change and which we are. of course going
to do throughout our life. We want different
things and the important thing to do is just
to be supportive with the choices of the young
or the old. You know, an older woman can absolutely
be a princess as well as a younger witch. Exactly.
You know, it's not to do with age even though
of course you mentioned the crone, you know,
you've got that... quite binaries of triple goddess
complex of the maid and the mother and the goddess
but as you said we freely flow between the three
which is wonderful and yes of course I wanted
to be a princess when I was younger but I also
wanted to be a witch as well and you can be both
and it's absolutely okay to say I want to be
looked after. Yeah, I think more of us are waking
up to that. I'm sure you guys have seen the film
The Princess Bride. And yeah, I've only seen
it once, but I remember watching it and thinking,
what's her name, Buttercup? She's very passive
throughout the film. She doesn't really do much.
And I remember thinking, oh, she's really not
feminist. She just gets rescued. But now I'm
older, and I'm tired. And I look at that, and
I think, you know, she had the right idea. My
girl was just chilling that whole film. She was
just like, you know. There's nothing to be said
for that, I think. And going back to the idea
of kind of glamour and that the other words originally
connected to like magic spells. I mean, can we
sort of bring it back to beauty? Can we like
incorporate this into the way we beautify ourselves
and present ourselves in that way? I think that
possibly a lot of people think that it might
involve a lot of tools. magical tools and herbs
and crystals and candles, which you can do, you
know, if you want to involve that. And it's lovely
to invite in all these beautiful crystals and
candle magic and all of that. But the most important
thing behind magic is the intention that you
put behind any action that you are making. So,
you know, if you don't have all of the white
crystals or the herbs or whatever, it might be...
The best thing you can do is to apply lipstick
with the intention of, you know, speaking your
truth for that day, right? And I think that glamour
magic really is an affirmation of self -love.
I think glamour and magic and both combined are
all to do ultimately with seduction, right? It's
about manifesting in what you want for yourself.
I wanted to just really quickly add that... I
think one of the pervasive ideas is that, oh,
you don't need all that makeup, you're beautiful
anyway. And that's the sort of sentence that
you hear. That does my hairdo when people say
that. I know! It's like, yeah, I know, but I
want to put it on anyway. Sure, I look like Hilda
the Milkmaid, but you know, the thing is, my
response to that is, but I know I don't need
it. I like colouring in. Yeah. You know, for
me... Makeup is play, and makeup is self -expression,
and makeup is joy, and creativity. And I mean,
for goodness sakes, look at me, I love colour.
Why would I not wear lipstick? You know, it makes
me feel much more alive, much more authentic.
to play with colours and to play with makeup
and I'll carry on doing it until I can't see
anymore. And that ties in Giselle to what we
were talking about with the witch wound and the
visibility wound. There's a concept in witchcraft
and just going back to the witch trials and how
many, not only women, people were just persecuted
for being different and that could be all of
us in here probably have been in the witch trials
and that could just be from having an open mind
for... speaking the truth for using herbs, having
peppermint tea. There's so many things that women
were persecuted for and I think as a result of
that we've kind of like almost removed it from
history. When we speak about the biggest atrocities
that ever happened people rarely on TV or in
the media will ever mention the witch trials
and how many people were killed. And when we
sit with that number and we sit with the reasons
why they were persecuted, as women we're living
in that almost subconscious fear that, well I've
seen in history what happens to women who are
outspoken and bold and pick a different path
and love themselves and play around in like the
dark arts which are just loving themselves and
when you see that in history your body reads
that as this is not safe then. And we have so
many remnants from the witch trials up to this
present day of when we see women who are different,
loud, outspoken, and it can be as quick as the
news cycle, anyone from Meghan, Duchess of Sussex
to Molly May, and there's just like a list of
women who are just visible and seen and creating
their own lives on their own terms and are disvilified
for that. It's like how dare they, especially
with Meghan, you're like how dare they, who do
you think she is? It's like how dare they exist.
And it's really hard to watch, and as women we
internalise that, as young girls we internalise
that, as I'm not allowed to just exist. So we
stop, we stop taking up space. I was on the train
yesterday and there was a disabled man who walked
onto the train and he just said loudly, is somebody
able to give me a seat? And everyone moved to
give him a seat. And then the next stop, this
woman who was pregnant who got on the train,
she was very, very pregnant and she didn't say
anything. so the woman behind her said can someone
give her a seat and then someone did but just
even those small interactions were very conditioned
to not take up that space and to walk into rooms
very unassuming and very shy and the witch room
just simply means that we're just living in our
ancestors footprints and we've got that ancestral
memory which you know has been proven to go back
at least seven generations if not more. Well,
we carry that. We carry those wounds with us.
So much of the work that we're all speaking about
tonight is a way to reclaim that and to actively
work on it. But I think it's also a way to have
self -compassion on the days where it feels hard
to move into self -love or self -trust or taking
up space or going into a shop. My partner, we
were going into an old -fashioned sweet shop
in the countryside and he just walked in very
boldly and said to the guy, Can we just try one?
And I was just like, I have to go and try it
some day. I was so mortified. I was like, I'll
just ask for a free sweet. And he was like, well,
we're going to buy some, so I want to try it
before we buy it. And I was just like, the actual
bodacity. And then why wouldn't I do that? And
it's just like those little reminders of that
witch room that pop up. And yeah, we deserve
to be here in our boldest, most beautiful expressions.
And I think beauty is a real sort of a strong
way of channeling that. I mean, Maria, when you
were a hairdresser, did you feel that there was
something really kind of magical and transformative
when the person eventually got out of the chair
and just felt like a completely different person?
Is there kind of, is it like a magical spiritual
element to that? For both me and my client. Yeah.
And it made me realise when I was doing less
and less hairdressing, I was almost in mourning
because it was like a drug to me being able to
do that for somebody. you know that's that is
the magic of what i used to do is the unveiling
of a swan literally and do you know what it is
that used to get me is when because i'm very
passionate about being a hairstylist it's a privilege
as well because you're like someone's letting
you sort of mess with their hair and yeah and
the reward for myself could be, I would say,
even more than what they felt for themselves.
So when they would stand, and I don't know if
you ladies do it, when you go to Hennessy, they've
done a good job. is something I feel very passionate
about. So that's the side of the beauty industry
that rarely sort of gets spoken about and people
talk about, oh, you're sort of submitting to
a patriarchal standard. I mean, Laura, what do
you feel about when people say, I'm sure you've
got a lot of opinions about this, when people,
I know when I tell people I work in beauty, they're
just like, oh yeah, but you can tell, you know,
that sort of idea of it's kind of fickle and...
I mean, there is absolutely nothing frivolous
or trivial about beauty or fashion or about...
helping yourself to feel and look better. There's
something witchy and spiritual about that. Yes
there is and not only do you feel better because
you feel that you look better once you have stepped
onto that path of meeting your most glamourized
self and whatever glamour means to you, it means
something very different to us all. But what
I love about it is the fact that it really sort
of, it seeps into other areas of your life. So
you become a happier, maybe harder working person.
You've spent time for yourself. You know yourself.
You might become closer with partners or husbands
or wives or whatever with your children because
you're not completely burnt out. And it also
spreads like a ripple to the other women that
come into contact with me. Exactly. Because you're
giving them permission to also do the same. You're
saying, you know, yes I'm a mother and I'm a
business owner but I still love to wear something
that makes me feel beautiful. I still love to
wear red lipstick every day even if it's just
to take the dogs out for a walk. And you can
too, because it's not hindering any of that at
the end of the day, is it? Wearing a fabulous
red lipstick that you're going to feel better
wearing is going to brighten up your energy and
elevate your day. And if you can make these small
changes for yourself, you are giving other women
permission to do the same for themselves, which
I think is really precious. No, you're uplifting
others in the same. Exactly that. And Giselle,
we're seeing this sort of reclamation of sort
of very kind of witchy aesthetics and sort of
spiritual wellness in beauty. I mean, do you
think that's kind of part of like a larger sort
of shift or do you think it's just more becoming
commodified? I know we spoke about this when
we were chatting on the phone. I mean, do you
think it's people are embracing it genuinely
or is it just jumping on a bandwagon? I think
it's really hard when I... I think it was probably
about 2018. Me and my best friends, so I went
to New York to pitch like a series of these like
skin meets spirituality. It was like very ritual
based and we would say that when you're washing
your face, for example, you can be decently trying
to let go of. So that was what you're speaking
into about the stages of your beauty ritual that
you can then turn into something more intention.
And we went to so many different brands and wellness
spaces in New York and we were like, yeah, come
over, it's going to be great. And then in the
UK it was like, what are you talking about? It
was this very, no, it's not going to work. And
then I think as the years moved on, I did a project
with MAC and we had all their fixed plus sprays.
I created different intentions for one of their
mavers. And that was great. And then just like
more and more brands were asking me to do different
projects with them or different activations and
events. what was really beautiful was that they
gave me the chance to work with them as someone
who's got such a huge amount of experience doing
that. And then I think over the years it just
started to diminish. So lots of me and my friends
who are witches and meditation teachers and practitioners
were working with brands in that really deep
way. And we just changed very quickly to someone
on the team was them doing it and just doing
like a quick chat GPT set. I mean, you can always
tell, you can always tell who's, you know, had
their hands in it and who's worked on the project
and... I just hope that, you know, there's so
many of us who do this work and it's our medicine,
it's our work, it's ancestral for a lot of us,
including myself. And I hope that brands going
forward can just start to use their community
rather than just make it a marketing trend. But
I think it's beautiful. I think, you know, I've
always said for me, my passion in that sector
was most women don't have time to do like an
hour long meditation every day, or a lot of women
do not have time, or we've been taught to...
be always the caregivers and the nurturers and
provide for everyone else. So the idea of asking
them to add in so many more practices is very
hard and unrealistic. But I said to someone once
that, well, everyone has time to wash their face.
So if we can speak to her while she's washing
her face, then maybe she'll get like two minutes
back. If she's breathing intentionally while
she's applying a face cream, that's another 30
seconds back. And that's how I saw it. I always
use perfume, for example, as like the last spritz
of any spell that I do to like see them my intention.
I do that every single day. So I think it's about
having you weave magic into everything that you're
doing because it's alchemy and that's what witchcraft
is about. And I just wanted to touch on the thing
you said before about the archetypes and I was
talking about the triple goddess, like the maiden
mother crone and the princess and the witch.
I remember when I was 15, I first held my first
witch book at Watkins Books in Covent Garden.
I was so excited. I was like, I think this is
who I am. And when I learned about these different
archetypes and that women have so many cycles
and phases that you can just be different versions
of yourself, there was something so beautiful
and powerful about that. for the first time I
think maybe last year I kept pulling the crone
as like a card and it kept coming up in readings
and I was just like how interesting, I didn't
really ever identify as a crone. I think we're
always taught that the crone will be like when
you're older and you move into a different transition
in your life but we meet these different parts
of ourselves continuously. Being a maiden is
not just being fun and fancy free, it greets
you at different times and being a mother isn't
always birthing children's birthing projects
and art and creativity. And being a crone is,
you know, ending a cycle when you take that wisdom
into another cycle. There's nothing to do about
ages. I think, yeah, for me, the idea of the
princess and the witch is just owning that you
kind of get to be everything. And you can fall
into these different archetypes as you change
and evolve. And, yeah, you can dance with all
of the goddesses at different points. I completely
agree. Like when I was... Like a kid, I always
eschewed the idea of being a princess, mainly
because I wasn't like blonde and I was told,
well, you can't be the princess because you're
not blonde. And I mean, that's a whole other
conversation in itself. But I think now that
I'm in my 40s, I've become more princessy than
before because it's like, no, I can just rest.
I don't have to be doing it all. And I mean,
Maria, like. when it comes to beauty sleep in
sort of things like because obviously you create
beautiful like turbans and pillowcases and products
designed to sort of maximize sleep so how does
that kind of land with you so i think women now
are starting to realize how important the more
we start to realize that we should allow ourselves
that time it's allowing yourself isn't it it's
like giving yourself permission to like do that
and not we actually deserve to look after ourselves
And it's taken me a long time. No one teaches
us that it's like no you must sacrifice And just
be of service. Yeah, I was a single mom I had
three children to bring up and it's a machine
like just you know, just pounding away and I
think to get to a place I Think things have got
to happen to before you realize oh my god, I
am so important. I must take care of myself,
you know So, yeah, I'm all for people allowing
themselves the grace to sleep, you know? Does
anyone have any... We've got time for a few quick
questions. Does anyone have anything that they'd
like to add? I have a question for Pia. If you
were going to... This will be hard, sorry. If
you had to prescribe or post -scribe a certain
set of notes... for a princess fragrance versus
a witch fragrance what would those be even if
they were only three per? I mean you could think
about it from well are we talking Europe are
we talking you know which which culture because
first I would think well in what culture but
if I think well obviously I'm European so I have
to think European I think for which obviously
you're thinking cauldrons, you're thinking, you
know, nighttime, you're thinking pet familiars
and things like that. So it could be interesting
to try something that's got both the sort of
maybe smoky elements and something like vetiver
root and patchouli and something that's kind
of associated with deeper chords and definitely
something resinous and balsamic and long lasting
and unctuous. I think the entire liquid should
look pretty dark actually. But then you could
do some fun twists, you could add something like
blackcurrant or something like that, so kind
of make it also a bit more interesting. And then,
you know, princess, I actually like the fact
that we've come to a conclusion that a princess
is not an age. princess is a mindset or a way
to behave or a way to expect the world to treat
you and so for princess I think there's a suggestion
of what well you know maybe maybe you're thinking
something more delicate maybe you're thinking
something more transparent so immediately you're
you're drawn to things like citruses and florals
and you're thinking I don't actually want to
go sort of infantilize the princess. I don't
want to put her in cookies and cream and all
that. I would like to see her have a delicate
neroli, I mean princess neroli, that's kind of
an actual historic perfumery connection. So I
think if I, I was put on the spot today and I
was told go there and make the perfume now, I
would build it around neroli and orange blossom
and light masks. I love neroli, it's one of my
favourites. It's wonderful. I think, yeah, thank
you to my panelist so much. Really enjoyed chatting
with you and thank you to everyone. Thank you
to the lovely Nicola who is the proprietor of
this fine establishment. But yes, thank you all
so much and thank you guys. I appreciate it.
I felt like my brain has grown and I've been
enriched by everyone's opinion, so thank you.
I love you more than you today. It's great. I
could talk about this for a while. I love this
topic. I know. It's so great. It's a topic I've
never thought about. One thing I will add. One
thing. Final note. Final note. is that I have
been involved in beauty industry since I was
almost a child myself. And I've seen some of
the ugly sides of it, you know, I've seen the
way, you know, you discussed how people often
say, oh, you work in beauty, so therefore you
can't be a feminist, you can't be, you know,
and you're sort of conforming to patriarchy and,
you know, you're sort of a traitor to other women
by promoting beauty. and the thing is there's
like a difference between beauty that comes from
intent of the woman wanting to serve her own
needs and project her own personality and meet
her own needs and comes from choice from the
woman versus beauty that serves the needs of
profit margins of corporations who are marketing
to women's insecurities so there is something
to be said for example about anti -aging where
That whole concept is kind of vile, but at the
same time, I didn't understand that that need
often comes from women themselves. It's not just
marketing at women, but when I went past 50,
there was one very memorable moment. I looked
in the mirror in the morning and went, I don't
recognise my face. It was a horrible moment.
I don't look like myself anymore. And I just...
It's like, who are you? And it was actually like
this, it was like a dysphoric moment. And I suddenly,
in a flash, understood anti -aging from a woman's
perspective. I'd always assumed it was just greedy
corporations saying, don't age, don't age, you
know, you're not allowed to. And it was that
one moment of like, oh, wait, wait, wait. I mean,
you're made to feel guilty for feeling bad about
aging. Yeah. And then when I tried, I tried Botox
straight away, like the very next week. And it
made my brows droop hideously. didn't want to
touch it again but I suddenly understood I had
like complete panic like I didn't recognize my
own face and that was that was a powerful moment
and so I think we too quickly sort of put it
in that binary category oh you know anti -aging
is always bad or interesting beauty or looking
after yourself or doing these nightly beauty
rituals of kind of when can I get the best time
for myself to keep my skin and hair looking beautiful.
It's not for men, it's for us. And at the end
of the day, we're no better than those who went
after witches in all these trials. The worst
thing we can do is go after other women. Yes,
exactly. Who are making and living with their
choices. Exactly, and I always... call people
out if I in my peer group or anywhere hear people
criticizing someone who's had injections or someone
who's had a facelift or someone who wears something
that looks a bit slutty or whatever I was like
how dare you actually you know it's up to them
and so that's to me we all find different ways
to cope yeah exactly so I'm not going to judge
anyone I really don't you know if somebody's
doing something otherwise unpleasant being a
bigoted or whatever then that's you know criticize
that but don't ever dare to criticize whether
they've had filler or not no 100 % well wise
words to end on I hope you enjoyed that episode
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