Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty Podcast.
I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist
and founder of copy led branding agency, Smart
Beauty Creative. We're here to create your brand
voice and craft the story behind it. I'm truly
honored to welcome today's guest, Ruby Hammer
MBE. Needing very little introduction, she is
an industry renowned British Bangladeshi makeup
artist, entrepreneur and the founder of Colt
90s brand Ruby and Millie, which she founded
with Millie Kendall, CEO of the British Beauty
Council. And more recently, Ruby Hammer Beauty,
a capsule collection of beauty essentials. Born
in Nigeria to Bangladeshi parents, she moved
to London at the age of 12 and a few years later
started her career on the shop floor of Harrods
before becoming an assistant to a leading makeup
artist and her star continued to rise from there.
She was awarded an MBE in 2007 for her contributions
to the cosmetics industry. And as a kid in the
90s, myself with black hair, glasses and an olive
complexion, I didn't fit into the conventional
beauty mold where blonde and white was seen as
the ideal, and I didn't consider myself pretty
in comparison, yet Ruby and Millie was my first
introduction to the glamorous world of beauty,
and the sleek packaging and branding just mesmerized
me. It showed me that beauty could be fun, not
serious and grown up always, but something to
make you feel good, not just look good. I got
given a copy of... Ruby and Millie's book face
up for my birthday one year, I think I was about
10 or 11. And it just taught me the basics of
beauty and just the stunning photography and
diverse range of models, which wasn't commonplace
at the time really stood out to me in a sea of
homogenous beauty ideals. I think this was the
first time I felt like the world of beauty. truly
was for everyone and there wasn't just one way
to be pretty. I feel very privileged to have
gotten to know Ruby as a beauty journalist and
interviewing her on my podcast, I feel like my
career has really come full circle. What I love
about Ruby is that she has a lot of opinions
on the industry, which I love and can't wait
to delve into, as well as being very open about
her personal journey, which I'm really looking
forward to chatting to her about as well. So
without further ado, Ruby, thank you so much
for joining me. Thank you so much, Vera, for
asking me. It's really great. God, it sounds
quite funny when you hear somebody else relay.
No, definitely. Well, thank you so much for being
on the show. And going back to the very beginning,
so growing up in Nigeria and later London, I'd
love to know what your introduction to the beauty
world was like. And did you always imagine that
one day you would have a career in it? No, not
at all because my late father was a doctor and
I always assumed I would follow his profession
and it was only when we arrived back in this
country and I now realize when you're doing your
own levels I don't know what they're called now,
but at that stage I realize oh my god out of
all the science subjects the only one I liked
was biology and I probably don't have the aptitude
for that vocation you know you can't just imagine
I want to be this you've got to have the skills
and the reins to do that and so then I changed
to social sciences and it didn't mean my education
stopped it just means the way the focus you know
like that and talking about beauty my mum was
a very young Mum, you know, she had me at 17.
So that's probably the inspiration for beauty
and how transformative that power is of how you
look and you put a face on. You know, she was
a housewife with three kids by age 21. but she
was still a very supportive partner to my father.
So she'd be cooking all day, sweaty and horrible
in Nigeria. And yet then when it was a cocktail
party or a dinner party, you know, she would
change herself with makeup, with hair, with the
wigs, with this, with that, and different bits
of what you wear. And it was a very good template
for me to see how many facets a woman has, you
know, she's a woman, she's a mother, she's a
wife, she's her own personality and beauty is
part of that, you know, there's always all our
appearances are like that, whether it's for women
or men, you have to shower, you have to be clean,
it's a sign of good health, you know, there's
a thing when you are suffering mental health
issues that one of the first things that goes
is probably your attention to hygiene, personal
hygiene and things that make you look and feel
better. So they're not just shallow things. If
you start not brushing your teeth and not having
a wash and not having, it has bearing on lots
of things. So I don't like this thing of people
just think, oh, we're just so engrossed with
how we look. It's like some shallow, horrible.
is actually a good sign of taking care of yourself.
One of the first steps towards that before you
get into a aesthetic or a creative, you know,
what the trend is, what the style is, are you
living up to that? Is it expensive? Is it mass?
Is it luxury? Just the basics of having clean
teeth, clean hair, clean body, not smelling,
you know, your nails are cut or groomed, and
it's a sign of your... good mental health, your
physical wellbeing. And that's a start to, you
know, why do we have care for people who when
they can't look after themselves when they're
ill or elderly or whatever, pay a lot of attention
to that, don't we, about having that bit of making
you look. For sure. So it's very important, it's
very important. It is, it's not necessarily about
vanity. It's kind of, I liken it to making your
bed every morning and keeping your house tidy,
similar to what you were saying. I think everybody's
mental health suffers, you know, their house
starts to become disarray and things can. And
bring disease, you know, things that you use,
you know, just the way you dispose of your rubbish.
has a bearing if you don't take care of it you're
in your home like yes we all get a bit busy and
I'm probably a bit messier than most people.
I'm scrupulously clean but I'm more I'm a little
bit of a hoarder and things come you know as
you well know as as a journalist or in beauty
tons of things come to us and we have to address
it and deal with it and it can't all be dealt
with in that. Exact second and then the way I
give a lot away But I have to also hold on to
something because it's not relevant right now
But it will be in something later, you know Because
I'm judging something or I'm gonna talk about
it or it goes in my kit Not every single thing
gets used every single time No into you, you
know, you have to look at it to think oh my god.
That was so amazing This is appropriate for this
particular job or shoot or what I'm going to
talk about now or master class or whatever it
is so yeah stuff arrives through our door and
it's not just keeping yourself looking okay like
you said it's not just vanity but your environment
your bed your home your what you put inside your
body how you think you know sometimes if it's
just too much just to take a walk away from something
just to be in nature for five minutes if there's
the park or somewhere you can just sit and breathe
to get your balance back. It's all part of living
this life and sometimes it gets overwhelming
for all of us, whatever. We're not a three -year
-old that I can just throw a tantrum, deal with
it, cope with it like an adult. So everybody
needs Different things that helps them cope with
this thing called life, you know couldn't agree
more and I thought yes There probably is a toxic
element of the beauty industry and people do
prey on people's insecurities I like to think
that that's not widespread that that's kind of
as a toxic element in life Do you know what I
mean? Humans are even the best person has moments
of weakness and has said a harsh word here or
there or doubt and vice versa, you know, like...
Beauty is just so blatant. I think that's why
people get up and arms about it. It's just coping.
It's not just, oh my God, it's just the beauty
industry that carries a toxic crown. It's life.
People in all walks of life, in all professions,
do belittle, troll, you know, gaslight, undermine,
whatever, or are not... or double -faced, whatever
they are, for whatever reason. We don't know,
because that's how it is, isn't it? No, definitely.
And I was talking to Millie about this when she
was on the podcast a while back, and there's
nothing wrong with wanting to look good. It's
just as long as you don't have to look good in
order to feel good or to feel like you need to
meet a certain standard. Do you know what I mean?
I mean, it's all about body image, isn't it?
Look a certain way because somebody tells you
that that's how you're supposed to be. or, you
know, I don't dictate to anybody. I never have
done, even in my work and things, I've followed
trends, I've set trends, but I feel, in the end,
everybody, it should be their interpretation
of what it is that suits and works for them.
You know, I don't like being dictated to that
way. Oh, you're 63 years old, so you shouldn't
wear denim shorts. or you can't wear this or
you can't wear that. The only thing is I can't
see properly to do a liquid eyeliner the way
I can do it on somebody else. I don't execute
it as well on me, even with my skills. So I've
made peace with it that when I can do a little
flip, I'll do it if I'm feeling steady or not,
and I've got the time. And when I don't, I don't
have to do it, even though it's a product that's
in my range at the minute. You know, like it's
just this. having to, the pressure of having
to, I think it's quite liberating to be able
to make peace with it, come to terms with aging
or beauty or knowing these are the features you've
been blessed with, and it is a blessing. Exactly,
I actually feel, I don't know about you, but
the older I get, the better I feel about myself.
So I think, all right, my eyes are never going
to be this big and huge or I'm losing my hair
now, so it'll never be that lush thing that people
look at as South Asian beauties. You're going
to have this thick curtain of hair. You've got
more hair than I have. And you know what? You
make peace with it and you address it the best
way. Exactly. Without all your energy just going
on how you look. 100%. And like I say, I feel
like it's how you carry yourself, isn't it? And
just, you know what? Yeah, I might have a less
collagen than I did in my 20s But I'm alright
as long as I look good for my age and I don't
look that good This is that including the man,
you know, we have it and we lose it progressively
Progressively and when you know that you lose
it if there's something you can do about it like
taking a supplement whether it's a cream whether
it's a liquid or doing your You know weight training
or booster next whatever that is, when you know
the remedy for it and you're inclined to try
that, then that's great. No, definitely. You
know, that's all it's about. How do you get through
this journey of life? And it is unique to you.
Nobody lives somebody else's journey. We all
live our own, you know, all eight billion of
us on the planet right now. I don't know. I think
that's right. I think we're eight billion. um
but everyone has to kind of sustain and live
their unique journey you know there are lots
of things you can learn from each other and lots
of generalities and this works for someone so
but within it no one's journey is 100 % the same
as somebody else's no that's for certain and
uh that's quite that's quite wonderful in a way
isn't it i mean But in terms of like body image,
I mean, I've mentioned that I kind of struggled
with it growing up. Obviously growing up in Nigeria,
imagine was very different than if you'd grown
up, spent all your life growing up in London.
Did you struggle with body image? You know, I
was in a hot country. I was really thin. My father
was tall and thin. I was really thin and I was
always a bit of a tomboy. So I didn't ever stay
indoors when you're supposed to do the siesta.
I would be out there and I was always darker
and skinny and like, you know, like my nickname
was Mowgli, because I was always this scrap with
runny hair with scraps on my elbows, knees and
a bit of that dusty hair. And then when you come
here, it's like the opposite, the temperature
is extremely cold and luckily my school, I went
to a comprehensive, didn't have a, you know,
it wasn't, you didn't have to have compulsory
school uniform. So I wore my own things so I've
expressed myself fashion -wise from from going
to school um and we were allowed to wear makeup
as well so when I was allowed to wear it from
14 15 you know I did it I experimented wildly
before I became a professional at it and then
that's I reduced wearing it because it was like
more about just being clean and comfortable and
wearing your layers but it wasn't about how I
looked but making my subject and delivering the
job whatever that was a fashion show or an editorial
or whether it was say advertising or tv or something
you know there was no social media in those days
it wasn't those kind of things but within it
there was still I did many different things yeah
it was it was more about my focus was on who
I was looking at not about me and yeah I was
able to use those skills to make myself look
okay and then in the 90s when we became the face
of a brand it was important how we looked you
know like you can't be cosmetics of someone and
not wear a stitch yourself and but having someone
like Millie who was a direct complete contrast
to how I was in appearance you know she was blonde
blue, green, you know, just in coloring and in
manner and personality, everything. But we were
really good mates and we were business partners
and we had different ways of tackling something.
But we came to similar conclusions about the
brand and about our perceptions of life. So it's
about keeping yourself open. to receiving info
and giving your own way out and hopefully somebody
out there listens to your version as well. Yeah
so body image wasn't really an issue for you
would you say? Well it was in some funny way
because it wasn't a body issue that I was big
in size but I was really little so everyone would
keep going on about how skinny you are oh my
god you're so little you're like a twigler and
you had all these funny nicknames but my Parents
never made me feel that that was something, you
know, as long as you were healthy, you ate well,
you slept, I was energetic, I played, I... So,
you know, my father was a doctor, so it was like,
yeah, he did have loads of people like, look
at her, is she all right? Like, she's not got
worms or rickets or something or weird, and then
they look at you playing, like you say, you've
got the energy. I wasn't listless and just sitting
there like a broken kid. and I slept and I ate.
I had an appetite. I didn't overindulge because
I just didn't. I wasn't my nature. When I was
full up, I was full up. That's it. They didn't
force you. You've got to eat what's on your plate.
But we were taught not to waste food and only
put in your plate what you think you're going
to eat. So I did have issues because people made
me feel like you weren't normal. You were like
this over -skinny person. And then now, you know
when you're at the other end of the spectrum
where I'm in my 60s and you have menopause and
you have a thickening of the waist and things
are a little bit it's just not the same as how
I was my entire life where people would go on
like I bet you if how I used to look people would
say oh are you on those are you on Manjaro are
you taking the jazz and all that and I'd have
to say no I'm not this is how I am naturally
thank you There's nothing wrong with how somebody
chooses to want to live their life, but what
I'm saying is there is an issue, but you can't
make somebody feel bad for how they are. No,
definitely. You know, like that is their DNA.
You shouldn't do that. And I imagine Because
you were the first makeup artist of colour to
be regularly featured on British TV. I mean,
imagine it's tough to be the first of anything
and it can be a lot of emotional weight to carry.
I mean, how did you navigate that? The truth
is, I didn't know that that's what I was. It's
only when you look back with hindsight. I just
did what I did. I wanted to... be the best in
my field and in the nation that I was in you
know like if I had because I was already married
quite young and I was a mother quite young at
25 I'd had my daughter I've been married and
I started assisting so it's not like I was at
the forefront of everything right at the beginning
no it was a journey I had to work I had to assist
I had I got good jobs I got a good agent and
then the good jobs kept coming you meet other
photographers you know like the teams and what
I did. So it didn't all happen in one day. But
I just kept pushing my boundary for myself. I
just wanted to be, I didn't want to be known
as Asian makeup artist. Brand face makeup artist.
I was just a makeup artist doing my best. It
wasn't even about being British or Bangladeshi
or African. I was just me doing the best I could
and pushing the boundary. for myself and it's
only when I look back now I realize my god having
that a bit of confidence or just a bit of self
-respect to just say this is what I want to do
and I wasn't going there on the tailcoats of
I'm this or I'm that or some some sort of now
I look back and I think god I really was one
of the first ones down there good I'm glad that
he busted them the door for other people to come,
and it gave people, certainly other Asians, that,
oh my God, there's other jobs that could be had,
not just an accountant and a lawyer and a doctor.
It allowed them, they could say to their parents,
look, this girl has made a living out of this.
She didn't have to, and I was very, not vocal,
but I was very open. I've always been transparent
about what I've been doing. So whether it was
in the press or whether it was in interviews
or whichever means that was open to me, I discussed
openly. So there's always, if you go back, I
never hid my age or what I did or what I didn't.
But there's also constraints in that I could
never just go off and be a makeup artist in New
York or Paris and do all the some... wonderful
things like someone like Dicando or Val Garland
or Pat McGrath, you know, they are exceptional
artists and they were able to go and follow those
big photographers and not taking away from their
enormous, God -given creative talents. You know,
I have mine, they have theirs. I probably have
it in a more commercial way of my creative. It's
not that I like it, but I have it in a different
way to how they had it. And I put my family,
and foremost, and this is where they were based
and this is where I was going to be based and
work from and do the best I could within this
and push and excel as far as I could get. But
no, I don't have 20 million rub covers the way
Pat has or somebody else has. I don't have that
10 ,000 couture shows. I've done shows, I've
done coutures. It's not like I don't know what
they're doing, but everybody has their gift and
has their Yes. But this way, yes. Unwittingly,
I did break the things by being on TV, by being
there. Now, it's all about what's on social media,
who gets seen where. And I'm sure there were
lots of models who were, you know, women of colour
who were relieved to work with you because you
knew how to work with their skin. Well, it didn't
exactly throw me, you know, like they could,
I would always say to them, because a lot of
them, because of that, would have their own base
or something, but I always knew I had to be a
makeup artist so I would have, I didn't know
who I was going to have. It could be someone
so pale, it could be a male. it could be someone
who wore a lot of makeup or didn't wear anything
or they wanted something natural or they didn't
and they you know they'd have a person of color
or not so I'd have to have it in my kit that's
what a professional makeup artist does so to
me it was quite shocking when they'd go oh okay
there's really one is I was more obsessed about
hiding you know like things were clean and I
had this and brushes and I had the tools to remove
their makeup or add this or add the texture not
just about the colour, I just took it as given,
not really. Oh my god, that some people were
like, oh my god, Alicia Love, she'll know how
to deal with our skin. And sometimes, you know,
like when I worked with Alec Waite, you know,
and it was at an Aveda show or something, she
was beautiful skin, pitch, pitch black, but her
skin didn't need that much. cover art because
it was quite uniform and I was like, I was never
one of these artists that put tons of makeup
on just because you have to be on that thick
everywhere. So I just did it where she needed,
where she didn't, she needed blush, we put that
on, we did her eyes black, put mascara, you know,
did all that. So it wasn't just covering her
face with a base that wasn't needed and wasn't
her color. We allowed her natural beauty and
her coloring. to stand out. So, you know, and
then there's somebody else, and when you have
got dark skin, you have got pigmentation. So
sometimes you do have to colour correct that,
and you do have to put the concealer on, and
then to match all that, you do have to put base
elsewhere. So it's always about what's appropriate
with the face that's in front of you. Are you
excited about the way the beauty industry is
going in the trend? Some parts of it, I'm excited.
But some parts of it, I'm overwhelmed, same as
everybody else, because I'm of a certain age
and that technological, this snapshot, you know,
quick, it's not second nature to me. I have to
pay attention and say, oh, what is it I have
to do now? You know, like, oh, what is this?
What is that? So. I'm normal and I don't know
all the answers, I don't. I have to listen and
I have to be guided and sometimes I'm very clear
about what I feel and know and say and sometimes
I have to be receptive to what's out there. I
don't know it all, you know, so it is that and
I will adjust and put bits that make sense to
me and I'm able to afford or... want or willing
to do that and some things I think oh god that's
definitely not me I don't think I can do it that
way you know it's vitally important to do the
social media bit but I can't do that all day
and all night because I do have a life and I
want some boundaries it's the beast that always
needs to be fed right yeah and yet I do want
to be I have always had a drive and ambition
so I will do that but not above and beyond anything
else you know so No, I'm constantly adjusting
and manoeuvring and cutting my cloth to what
fits me at that time. That's really important.
But I do love the spiritual wellness trend that
a lot of brands seem to be leaning into now.
I mean, is that a big part of your life philosophy?
I've always been. I think it's good because it
means the more they get into it, more people
have access to that kind of thinking, to be aware
that it's not just the cosmetic, it's the mind,
body, soul, spirit, planet, good for our planet
and good for ourselves, good for our, not just
for yourself while you're alive, what legacy
you're leaving for the next generation, you know,
whether it's your own personal children, grandchildren
or not, but what are you doing as a human being
on the planet as you depart it? because your
grandparents and the other people that fought
the world wars or whatever they had left, they
gave us a legacy. And now we have to, the responsibility
is ours too. Are we going to live for the future
generation in our own way? So it's good all of
that, anything that bolsters or opens your third
eye or mind to how some something else can be
perceived or another perspective is nothing but
to be commended. And sometimes by doing that,
yes, it's commercial, yes, it's meant to be money
-making. By all of those people stepping into
the arena, it gives them more choice, doesn't
it? No, definitely. And I know you love mentoring
people in the industry. I mean, what are the
biggest kind of mistakes you see people making
when they want to launch a brand, in your opinion?
Well, I think I meant to not in a formal way,
I meant to you talk to someone or somebody asked
you advice or something just to be really honest
and give them what you feel at that time. That
is the best way. But I think a lot of something
now is I think they just think there's a formula
to doing it. There's no formula. No. No real
formula to doing it because your product is unique
to you and what made you choose it, how you're
going to put it in a packaging, which route you're
gonna use to fund it, if you've got the fund
or not, or whatever. And also people think, so
the formula, and then they think, oh, if I just
pick your brains, I'm gonna be able to do it.
You can't copy what I've just done. You can listen,
you should listen, you should ask me questions,
you should do this, and is it appropriate for
you, is it this, is it that? And also people
forget the amount of effort and energy you have
to give as a founder, as stepping into a commercial
arena. It's not easy. It's really not easy. People
are scared to be different, I think. People are
scared to go against the grain. But that's the
key to success, isn't it? And you've got to really
love what you're doing and that product. Otherwise,
even with that, sometimes it fails. Be aware
that it could all fail. There's no guarantee
about anything. Listen to everything, but it's
also not this snap your fingers and everyone
thinks, oh, it's just all happens. I'll just
get one viral video and that's it, I'm off. It's
a business. It's a continuous, you know, like
you've got to take your hat off to the Estee
Lauder's and the L 'Oreal's and Chasedo's of
the world. But yes, they... losing stocks and
shares and things, but they've been going for
how many years? Do you know how hard that is?
It's hard to leave the beauty. Once you're in
the beauty industry, it's kind of like a cult.
You don't really... It's hard to leave once you're
in. Yeah, and everyone has a place in it. They
do. They really do. You've got a little... And
don't be so competitive. Oh, I'm not at the top
end or I'm not there. Everything, naturally,
there and everything, we have a space in it.
Everyone has their place in the ecosystem. Yeah,
it's lovely. That's what's great about it. I
think it's the antithesis of fashion in a lot
of ways. It's just not as elitist and it's not
this kind of private. We've always been a more
warmer industry in that way. I mean, there is
still fierce competition, but it's not as brutal,
I would say, as some other industries. Oh, definitely
not. And what's next to you? You've achieved
so much. Is there anything left that you... There's
tons left. There's tons left. Like, look, even
my brand here now, I really put out a big message
to say, please, I need to be in some bricks and
mortar. I'd love to be in Selfridges. I'd love
to be in Liberties, or Space NK, or Marks and
Spencer, you know, anything. Just somewhere now,
I think we need to be indoors somewhere. So that's,
I'd love that. But also, it's growing. we've
got new territories, you know, we're in Canada,
we're in Norway, we've got distributors here,
there's still deals to be done and so many doors
to open and reach out to and get to a customer
to say, look, it doesn't matter what age you
are, if you like using this product, it's kind
of, it is vegan, it is quarter free, it is, I
don't shout with a megaphone, clean, clean, because
I do find that a bit. When you talk to an intelligent
person, you realise there's no uniform criteria
for that. But some people are so big with a megaphone
saying that. And I think, yeah, that's right
for your description of what you are, but it
changes with the country. It's no standardised
way. But within it... I do the best I can within
my brand. Yes, it's kind to the planet and to
myself. It's as sustainable and as recyclable
as I can afford and manage at this moment. And
when I can do more, I'll do more. So there's
so much more to achieve. And it's an ongoing
thing. It's just going. We're just moving. And
every day, we're far better than we were two
years ago. And I intend to be far better in two
years. time ahead of me. And lastly, what would
you like your legacy to be? I just think, I hope
people think that just the way I've lived my
life and navigated my career, you know, resounds
for somebody, you know, that they can see that,
that it wasn't just without its difficulties,
but that I've managed to do it, you know, and
you can do it your way. I don't know any other
way. I only know how to be me. And I do what
I think is right. And I hope that that has earned
somebody's respect and affection. And if they
talk about me fondly with that, it's great. Well
Ruby thank you so much for joining me it's been
such an honour chatting with you and I think
if little 10 year old me would have predicted
it she would have been very chuffed so thank
you so much. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that
episode. All links will be in the show notes
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See you next time.