Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty Podcast.
I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist
and founder of copy led branding agency, Smart
Beauty Creative. We're here to create your brand
voice and craft the story behind it. Welcome
back to smart beauty today. I'm delighted to
be chatting with Abby cleave. She's an industry
powerhouse managing director of SBC skincare
skin sense and most famously Ultra Sun sun care
and the latter she has been building for the
last 28 years What started with 300 pounds buying
telephone directories and cold calling pharmacies
because this was back in the day when we didn't
have the internet and she's since grown it into
a brand that is sold internationally and has
featured on qvc and presented by abby herself
for over two decades so this lady really knows
her stuff and i can't wait to dive into our chat
with her she what i love about abby is just how
laid back she is and her leadership style i think
a lot of people associate people in Abby's position
with a certain kind of ruthlessness or see them
as having a bit of a hard nose edge but I think
with Abby she's managed to bypass that and I
think the fact that a lot of her staff have stayed
with her for over a decade is case in point.
She just is such a genuinely lovely person and
so passionate about what she does and she markets
her products and speaks to her customers with
real integrity, which I think can sadly often
be lacking in today's cut and thrust world of
beauty marketing. But I feel like Abby has managed
to successfully circumnavigate all of that and
has remained unequivocally herself. i think she's
a pretty cool lady. she describes herself as
a business hippie and like i say has kept some
team members on for nearly three decades. i think
i would like to work with her if i ever wanted
to go back in house. she sounds like the dream
boss. our conversation talks about maintaining
that excitement for your business that you had
on day one, turning rejection into opportunity
and building something that really aligns with
your values which i think abby is such a great
example of. so i hope you enjoy our chat. Abby,
thank you so much for being on the podcast. Lovely
to have you on as a guest. Now, there's a thing
that I hear often when it comes to relationships
actually called never stop dating your spouse.
But I think your business motto kind of resonates
where you say live every day in business as if
it's your first, which I feel is similar in a
business sense. How does that philosophy translate
when you look back on your career? Well, I think
that anybody setting out in business, whether
it's slightly accidental, whether it's been planned
for years, you've got such enthusiasm and excitement
and the kind of what if and here we go moment
in your life. And it's scary, but it's really
exciting. And I think very sadly that as days
go on and you know, months turn into years, it
can be very easy for it to become quite, to wear
quite heavy on you. And I really try to have
in my in my tummy and in my heart and in my brain
that remembering that excitement that passion
because on day one in any business you're there
you've set yourself up you might be you know
on your your a desk in your bedroom it could
be anywhere but you're in that mindset and I
find that's a really great space to start every
single day because every day in business is quite
exciting you never quite know what's going to
happen and who you're going to meet and how that's
going to transpire maybe not in the next week
or two but maybe in months or years to come so
I genuinely try to hold that moment in my head
every single day of how exciting it is what we
are doing what is our mission and of course we
have have good days and bad days, we all do.
But if you start each day in that way, it really
helps. It helps your mental space. We talk so
much more now about how we're feeling and how
we are as people in our work lives. And I realize
that that's got me through. It's been 28 years
now, and that has got me through. Every single
one of those days of 28 years is genuinely going,
OK. I love what I do. I love the independence.
I love the decision making. I love my colleagues
and working with my teams. So let's remember
that and just give that even just a literally
a moment of the day to set the rest of the day.
And it has helped me no end, Viola. You can imagine.
And as you know, I'm building a business myself
with Smart Beauty. And I always think, you know,
having been not 28 years like yourself, just
a year. So I've got a long way to go, but I just...
In the early days I was like just I just need
to get to this point and then I'll be stable
and then I just need to you know as long as I
just get to this point then I'll be okay but
maybe stability is a bit overrated maybe you
need that you need things to be slightly up in
the air to kind of see pathways that you might
not have taken I mean what do you think about
that? Well I agree you know those those Reebok
things used for exercise that are wobbly those
little platforms that people stand on because
it engages your core and keeps all your muscles
working it's a bit like that in business. I think
stability is massively overrated. And, you know,
we all need to sleep at night, but we'll come
to that. But I do think that that being able
to to constantly be pivoting on what is needed
is really exciting. It keeps your brain working.
It keeps you engaged and working with your business.
So I agree with you. And to be honest, if it
was only stability, you and I would probably
be employed in jobs. You know, that's all we
were looking for every day to be very predictable.
and to know, then we would never have taken that
decision. And I realized there's something about
me and you and countless other people out there
that need, crave, hunger for, get excited by
that unknown and turning things into this positive
outcome for our businesses and our world. And
that's not to be discredited. That's a really
powerful force. It does mean you're going to
have some rocky roads and you're going to wobble
and have to rebalance a few times and even get
off your little wobbly board and get back on
again. That's all good. That's all part of it.
But you are engaging all of those sinews and
muscles that perhaps wouldn't have been engaged
in a more traditional career path. And people
talk about to that point. i don't know it's not
about the hustle you need to get out of hustle
mode and stop being in survival mode but do you
think i think there's a middle ground you know
i think there's a kind of sort of you know getting
slightly uncomfortable without being you know
having to put out fires every five minutes Absolutely,
it is. I mean, at the very early stages, you
don't see the fires coming, you know, as we both
know, they're, oh, I never knew, you know, I
never knew that because you're not a legal expert,
an HR expert, a health and safety, you know,
you're not all of those things on day one. And
you learn as you go. And I think having that
open mind, open spirit, being ready to wobble
on your board a bit as new challenges are thrown
at you. is quite an exciting thing. And I agree
with you completely. There is a space between
all out hustle, no sleep, you know, black coffee,
kind of sort of 80s, 90s feeling of what setting
up your own businesses and kind of Zen like state,
you know, somewhere in between there is a scale
that is more comfortable and more survivable
and more sustainable. And we need to just keep
walking between those parts. There are days genuinely
where I do 22 hour days just because I need to
and that's what's needed. And then there are
other days when I can be a bit more focused,
have maybe a shorter day and probably more powerful
sort of mental day. And it's, I don't dine out
or take any sort of, I don't need to be that
victim to my business. I think I've managed,
some of my team actually gave me some feedback
recently where they've said that I can detach.
at times emotionally, and that's another skill
that I've learned over the years. That was not
there at the beginning. At the beginning, everything
was, you know, on the edge. I was either crying,
laughing, hysterical or drinking wine, one of
the above. But now I've managed to find a way
where I can just step back and be a bit more
patient. Maybe that's age or experience. I don't
know, but it means it's really comfortable and
I probably make better decisions. Yeah, there's
a lot to be said for that. I think for me, I've
learnt that, you know, it's just for me. having
being polite and having manners at all times.
Well who you're talking to, how they're talking
to you, but it's just not matching somebody else's
energy. It's being very kind of polite and respectful
to everyone. I think that's a way that you can
detach emotionally and actually put you in a
more powerful position doesn't it? It does. It
allows you a little tiny bit of space to think,
which is a mistake that I certainly had made
in the early days of not allowing myself that
time to think and going with sort of all out,
almost over enthusiasm and over gratitude. And
that's not to say that I'm sitting here and not
grateful for people around me and the people
who influence me. I very much am. But it's just
having that little breathing space and remembering
who you are. in that is really important and
it's really important for consistency which helps
those around you as you start to whether it's
you're working with people through a freelance
model or you start to take on team or whatever
way that you interact with with colleagues it's
really important that they feel grounded with
you as well and quite safe with you and that
you're you're consistent but to have some really
surrounded but I think I've got about 100 people
in the teams and I think there are probably about
15 who have done more than 18 years with me and
that's Such a blessing, what a joy. You can imagine
our stories go way back to the crazy days of
packing on our knees to where we are now. So
when new people join, they're sort of a bit of
a gog at that because it's hard with a smaller
company to keep people and make sure there's
progression and excitement for them and their
career too. Well, it's really interesting you
say that because I saw a TikTok with Emma Greed
who was chatting to Stephen Bartlett and it was
just, and I feel like they did her dirty with
that edit to be honest, but she was saying how,
you know, people that you start with at 10k aren't
going to get you to 100k and the people that
you know get you to 100k aren't going to get
you to a million and I wish I'd made um some
cuts sooner and um you know it could have been
taken completely out of context but you know
there's no reason why people that you start with
can't stay with you if you're developing them
if you're you know if you're helping them to
grow and you're bringing I figure if I can grow
and develop anyone can because I'm such a klutzer
thing so I I do think that and obviously some
people have gone and that's been the right thing
for them to do and you know they've wanted to
go into central London or you know and that is
absolutely brilliant and we've always seen especially
Ultra Sun as very much a nurturing environment
and somewhere where people are quite safe to
come in maybe learn about the beauty industry
for the first time maybe learn about the commercial
world for the first time and some as I say have
stayed and some have moved on to other roles
I'm really lucky a lot have stayed in touch.
So we have a great alumni sort of group as well.
And we're so proud of some of those people and
what they've gone on to achieve when they maybe
started with us at 20 years old or returning
to work after a family break and not really knowing
where they where they wanted to fit in. So that's
that I'm again, I take pride in I take pride
in everything. Everyone else's success. I'll
just own that as well. Good on me. So apologies,
everyone else, your careers that I'm owning.
But that is true. I can understand where she
was coming from, but I expect it was probably
maybe a little out of context because it does
sound very... sort of cutthroat and also it's
about what you enjoy look some people were cut
out to be in business and be constantly on the
next page when are we getting to the million
when are we getting to the five million blah
blah blah i have to be really honest and this
may not go down really well with everyone so
i apologize in advance that's not me that's not
who i am and i would be very unhappy trying to
be that um it's just not my comfort that we are
told like with shows like the apprentice like
oh it's dog eat dog and you've got a back stab
and you've got OK, off you go. You do you. But
I describe myself as a business hippie. And you
remember, I was brought up in the 70s, and my
mum was a massive hippie. And that's how, you
know, it's a really great, flat, playing field
way of working and listening. And I think we're
waking up to it more. I think we're seeing more,
whether it's LinkedIn or Vipercast. The more
I've gone into entrepreneurship, the more hippie
I've become, the more witty I've become. Absolutely.
And it's a joy. It's a real joy because I can
let real Abi out and it's lovely. I don't have
to be in corporate clothes. There are times where
I have to dress accordingly and get dressed even,
but there are times and you know, I go on TV
a lot and obviously I need to be the right version
of Abi that people will see. But what I love
is my business environment feels like my home.
I'm very, very comfortable here. It means I can...
think more clearly, I can make better decisions,
I can be more honest. And I can, my team will
sometimes push me on things, I think, oh, I don't
know if that's for us, or we can, can we do that?
And they'll be like, yeah, we can, hell yeah.
And I enjoy that level of vulnerability that
I can show both to my colleagues, but also to
our customers, because I am, this is what we
are, we are. you know our integrity our friendship
our journey with them for life is really very
very important to us not just because of numbers
on a spreadsheet or bottom lines but because
that's how i roll you know my it's the same in
my friendships it's i'm ridiculous about my family
don't get me started on my children because obviously
they're the best people in the world so that's
how i am so why why leave that to go to work
why not take some of that in the majority of
it gives me strength and power and some of it
probably does Occasionally has helped me back
or you know But I'm prepared to take that because
I can look at myself in the mirror and I can
sleep at night knowing I am the real authentic
Abby and I'm not trying to build a business to
sell it on or to you know have loads of titles
to my name or directorship. That's not what I'm
about at all. I'm sort of one of the only people,
I think, in the world that saves up for things
at work. We don't have credit. I know we should.
I know we should. And I know everyone tells me
often that you should borrow and you should be
doing this and you should be investing. It's
like, I just like to make sure that everybody's
safe and secure. And that's my priority. There's
mortgages to pay here. There's rents to pay.
And that motivates me. a lot more than how I
might be viewed in the business community. I
don't mind. I can live with that now. I'm not
trying to prove anything. And it works. And not
only does it work, people are happy and fulfilled.
And maybe that's why they stay. I don't know.
But I just feel that genuinely, I know I sound
incredibly like I'm trying to be some sort of
patron saint of business. I'm really not. It's
more that that's what makes me happy. So I've
started a business because it would make me happy.
And that's my major motivation with hindsight.
I didn't realize that, but with hindsight, it
is the freedom, the choice, the control, the
master of your own destiny. That was really attractive
to me. So I wouldn't want to try and be someone
else within that business. that has allowed me
the freedom to be me. No I think having integrity
and deciding what your values are and sticking
to them I think is so important and a lot of
people I'm sorry to say like you know some founders
they get so kind of focused on the prize that
they let that integrity slip and they're not
bad people it's just somehow you know somehow
it just falls you know it all falls apart um
in the you know in the stress and the you know
that that kind of idea that you need to be ruthless
but your backs to the wall, you know, you have
a choice. It is tempting to maybe, you know,
go down a certain avenue that you might not have
gone down otherwise. And I think that it's sort
of what does good business look like? And of
course, it depends. I mean, for a lot of people,
it's about, you know, profitability and sustainability,
you know, and how that business is performing,
what it would look like to outside potential
investors or buyers or how it would be judged
by the world. And you need to decide for yourself
as a leader what, I know it's been over you so
much, but what does good look like? What really
is it? Is it profit? And it may be, and you know,
we need it. Don't get me wrong. We need to still
be here in two years, five years, 10 years. So
absolutely it's in there. And I'd be naive to
say not, but it really is about that sustainable
growth and the honesty and integrity. And in
fact, I can honestly say, if anyone is listening
that is on a pathway to building something with
the possible hope of exiting that at some point,
let me tell you, having been through that process
a few times now, integrity and that real growth
is so much more important because anyone reviewing
any business can see straight through sort of
inflated, over rapid growth and development,
sudden ways of reporting profit and, you know,
reporting style. So that just don't even go there.
Don't even worry about it. Get the engine room
right. Have the, the, you know, and that's what
creates a heritage brand, a brand or a business
that is going to be attractive in the long run.
So if that is your pathway and your journey that's
absolutely great and there's nothing wrong with
that in any way or I'm not being judgmental in
any way but I'm saying that actually the way
to get there a lot quicker is definitely through
real hard graft integrity owning your space in
whatever market you're in rather than becoming
obsessed with hitting certain targets because
we all know that you know you can um inflate
they call it dressing the bride don't they you
can inflate and change things but anyone reviewing
that will we'll see straight through that and
what they want is what's going on what are the
nuts and bolts going on under the engine exactly
there aren't any shortcuts to it are there And
you and I remember a time before the internet
where there was something called The Yellow Pages
for younger listeners. So it was a book that
I think we got sent it for free or did you have
to buy it? But that's where you found kind of,
you know, knowledge. That was Google basically
from the internet days. And I love your your
journey about going back to the beginning where
you literally, as I understand it, bought the
entire set of Yellow Pages to call pharmacies
when you were building ultrasound. I mean, that's
such a brilliant origin story. Can you sort of
tell me a bit more about that? Well, I had accidentally...
Started a business and it was I was in I was
at Marks and Spencer's and I was on this high
-flying career And I've been put on an acceleration
scheme I've done their management training and
I was going all over the place and I I thought
that I loved what I did But what I was learning
is I was having to be someone else every day
I was putting on my Brooks blazer and my heels
and trotting around stores or you know doing
big presentations about and and don't get me
wrong. I mean, it's it's stamped in my heart
M &S. I went on the tills when I was a student
and I loved it there. If you know you know type
thing and I will forever be grateful. I think
I was there for about eight years and I did all
their management. My family ate like kings. Oh
my goodness it was before they used to discount
food at the end of life it just all went in the
staff shop for me. Yeah, we had dinners of smoked
salmon and mashed potatoes. Great. But I found
Ultrasun by accident, absolutely fell in love
with the product because it was the first time
I had tried a sun protection where I didn't burn,
I didn't get prickly heat. I got a little bit
of a towel. I only had to put it on once. It
was amazing. And I couldn't get it in the UK,
as you say. We had no Google. We had no internet.
And this was the mid -90s. And I managed to get
in touch through international directory inquiries
with Ultrasun in Switzerland, because that's
where I'd purchased it. So I knew it was a Swiss
brand. Anyway, long story short, the guy that
owned it, the chemist Tazio Tetamanti, the guy
who made the first formula, has said, look. we've
only been going for six months because I was
why isn't it available in the UK I need to buy
this in England and he was coming over to London
for a meeting and he said I'll meet you and randomly
and again this is before Bumble and stuff like
that and Hinge so meeting a strange guy for a
coffee in London was was a bit odd but I went
and met the guy and he was so passionate and
he said to me you are coming alive in this discussion.
He was a really amazing man. And he said, I think
you should stop doing what you're doing. And
you should work with me. And I will put you through
Swiss skin school. You will learn everything.
And you set up the business. And it was like,
okay. And I agreed to it over a coffee. And it
was like, okay. So I sort of went back and thought,
my God, did that really happen? And you're absolutely
right. I then obviously resigned at M &S and
- You had a family at the time as well, right?
So that was - It was - It was big. It was big.
And I was like, OK, this dazzling career that
everyone was so proud of me, you know, it was
so bizarre. And I thought, OK, I need to start
selling Sanskrit. sun cream, how do I do that?
And very much went down a pharmacy route because
that's where I'd found Ultrasun in Switzerland,
in one of those beautiful pharmacy stores, and
it is quite a pharmaceutical background. It's
absolutely sort of all about real and efficacious
product, UVA, UVB. It was before anyone even
knew what UVA was and we were shouting about
it. Anyway, so I did, I bought your own Yellow
Pages, your local one. Came out to you free,
but I bought it cost me 300 pounds to buy their
uk and it had a little library of them They all
sat on a little shelf and I literally started,
you know in abugaveni and looked up chemists
because everything was was um ordered by what
type of business so chemist pharmacy went through
them all and rang every single pharmacy and if
i sold six bottles to a pharmacist or i would
get in my little old beetle and drive you know
straight up the m1 to somewhere and sell six
bottles of sun cream and be over the moon because
i knew once people started using it They appreciate
everything I'd appreciated how different it was.
So that's how we started and we grew and grew.
And very soon I had to take someone on to help
me pack boxes. That was Dan who I mentioned earlier
is still with me now. And it just began. So started
with pharmacy, went into department store. Department
stores, the first big one really was John Lewis.
And that taught me a huge lesson because it was
all sale or return. And I did this order and
I went in and I presented and she gave me an
order, which was for £40 ,000. Now I had the
biggest order I probably had up till then was
about £600. So this was absolutely business changing
overnight. And as I sat on the train, which was
about half an hour train journey from Victoria
back down to Surrey, where we are, I looked,
I was watching my reflection and I was so smart.
I thought it was in my hand, £40 ,000. The team
are going to be so proud. Oh my gosh, this is
amazing, isn't it? And as I started to head south,
my face dropped and I thought, oh my God, this
is sale or return. That's about 80 ,000 pounds
at retail. How on earth am I going to sell 80
,000 pounds worth of sun cream this summer? And
I realized, I'm just going to have to get in
store. I'm just going to have to be there every
weekend. And that's what I did. I spent Saturdays
and Sundays in every John Lewis and, you know,
Peter Jones or wherever, and talk to people and
just talked about sunscreen, what they hated,
what they loved. Sometimes it was pouring with
rain and people laughed at me and I got that.
I understood where they were coming from. You
could go in and just be like a sales rep for
John Lewis. That's what I was doing. I was just
talking to people, but do you know, it was amazing
because a few years later was when we first launched
on QVC, which of course is shopping telly and
you're talking, but you've got no feedback. But
of course I'd banked all that feedback from those
amazing John Lewis customers, all the protestations,
everything from, you know, I'm a 60 year old
bloke. I've never used sunscreen. Why would I
bother now through to is it okay for my baby?
I'm pregnant through to I've got a darker skin
tone that I don't need it. All of that was in
my head. So when I went live on QVC, I almost
knew what people might be asking in their living
rooms. Exactly. I think on the shop floor, you
realise what the customers actually want. That's
why I feel like shop floor staff are just the
unsung heroes. I could not agree with you more.
If you've done it, which obviously you have and
I have, it is hard work. I always think of it
like theatre. The shutters go up in the morning.
especially perhaps with stores like M &S, people
have an expectation of how they will be greeted,
how they'll be served, what the overall service
experience will be, and you've got to come up
with that if you care about your job. Yeah. and
that was that was what I loved about retail and
still do and what I was able to carry into the
business side of it so that not only are we concentrating
on making amazing product but we are really working
hard on how our customer whether that's in a
bricks and mortar store whether that's qvc or
online however or even on socials however our
customer is meeting us We are there to give them
information, not to hard sell, to give them information,
to support their journey, to support their choices
and to help them get it right. And it may be,
I always say this to the team, look, sometimes
we're giving advice and it may be that it's not
ultrasound they're choosing, but they want some
advice around what to choose for a new baby or
they've been diagnosed with a recent skin cancer,
you know, and they need help. That's our job.
Whether they choose us or not. irrelevant. I
hope they do, of course I do, and I like to think
they would because of the quality and the efficacy
and all those things. But our job, as much to
have our products and make sure they are brilliant,
is to also help people make great choices for
them. Definitely. And your mum was also very
entrepreneurial, Wendy, but she at the time was
told She should find an at -home hobby, I believe,
that's what she was told when she asked for a
business loan. But she managed to build a successful
in -flight magazine empire. I mean, did that,
sort of watching her, did that shape your approach?
Oh, absolutely. My mum opened a shop when I was
about two and a half. So I was predominantly
brought up in a shop. Now, it was a doll's house
shop. So it was, and it was for collectors. So
those... You were a kid growing up in that. Oh,
my gosh. I mean, I wasn't allowed to touch anything,
obviously. I'm probably still not, to be honest,
because... But it was these lovely... wonderful
collectors who would, I remember there was a
violin, everything is done, it's called an inch
to a foot, because it's in old money, but basically
on a 1 12th scale. So there was a violin that
she had all these out workers that worked from
home. A lot of them were parents at home making
the stuff she saw. And it was exquisite. There
was a tiny violin and this gentleman carved them,
honestly, and they even played. And that was
a hundred pounds. And I'm talking about 1973
or something. So a hundred pounds then was crazy
money. So this was a very expensive hobby for
people with a lot of money that enjoyed collecting
and having dolls houses and all of the things
that went with them. And my mom, there's a couple
of things. So I grew up basically in the back
room of her shop. It was, it had no heating,
it had a little coal fire and it was a tiny little
shop in Rygate. It was called Polyflinders. And
I can remember, Somebody came in and was a bit
snippy about, I can't believe this shop makes
any money. And my mum told this wonderful story,
I'm old enough to remember, so I must have been
about six or seven, where she said, well, actually,
we have coach trips of people that come from
America, purely to come here to, and this place,
do they really? And I remember when mum shut
the door, I said, I didn't know that, Mummy,
and she went, oh no, we don't. I was totally,
I said, when are the Americans coming? But within
a year, we did. So within a year, she thought,
actually, that's a really good idea. And she
reached out, found Dolls House Societies. Anyway,
so that was when I was very little. Basically,
it was a shop near a station and British Rail
were developing and it was going to be knocked
down, blah, blah, blah. So she had to find something
else. And she realized that it was actually the
marketing that had... been her success in running
her shop. So she went into marketing, she threw
a breakfast launch and I was there, I was taken
out of school, I think I was about 11 or 12,
to serve smoked salmon and pretend champagne
to people. And she said to everyone, invite anyone
you know in business and one lady that she knew,
I won't disclose any names for obvious reasons
in a minute, was having an affair with a pilot
and she bought the pilot and he was actually
in charge of In -flight magazine, true story.
And he came to this breakfast launch. It was
very 80s, big hair, big glasses, shoulder pads.
And he said, do you do in -flight magazines?
To which my mom, being my mom, went, yes, we
do. Having no idea what that meant. He said,
well, ours is really boring, and we'd like it
to be a bit more flary. And so anyway, she did
a draft and a dummy and got freelancers and art
workers and all sorts of people in. And she won
the contract and she was awarded the contract
for a year to produce the in -flight magazine
for this very well -known airline of the time.
And she went to the bank and said, right, I need
400 pounds to start up this business. And they
said, oh. Oh, Wendy. Stick to doll's houses and
stick to all your little hobby stuff and your
at -home business. This is not for you. So she
went back to the airline and they lent her the
money themselves. There you go. I mean, it's
so funny. I still get spoken to like that as
a business entrepreneur in, you know, it's entrepreneur
in 2025 and it's still like, oh, how's your little
business going? Yeah, you look like hustle. Even
now, it's just like, it just, yeah. So that's
I think what's really interesting value is that
so we are seeing this explosion that I am at
50s and I know I've got kids in their 20s and
I know that I am out of touch and thank goodness
I have children and I can listen because they
are teaching me better ways of using language
better ways of of adjusting as we move forward
as society should and I welcome it enjoy it sometimes
get a bit lost but I ask and I am taught and
that's really welcome. And I think that in this
new world that we live in and as it goes on and
continues, more and more people will be working
in different ways to that traditional job, office,
whatever. And how exciting is that? And we will
have to change the way we almost... I hope I
don't, but I'm sure that all of us do to a certain
extent, that kind of judgment criteria that we
have based on career or job title or, and that,
that, and we're just seeing the real people.
And again, going back to my business hippie roots,
that is a joy because I, that is exactly, sometimes
skills are not always qualified on a piece of
paper or you know have had the opportunity to
be proven but when you get someone in a room
and they are free to be themselves and let their
inner i don't know it could be their inner administrator
their inner salesperson it doesn't really matter
their inner accountant it doesn't matter what
but when they are relaxed and free to explore
that really wonderful things happen Definitely.
Like from my perspective, like my attention to
detail is terrible. I'm just not good in any
admin roles or any kind of, but I'm good at the
big picture, the big ideas, the striking, you
know, give me, give me stuff to do around that.
And I'm just, you know, you're in. So I think
that's so true. It's like, it's just lean into
what you enjoy and what, you know, play to your
strengths, as opposed to trying to, which can
happen with corporate culture, can't it? You're
trying to dilute yourself and fit this mold.
Well you're often asked to be a bit of everything
and yet to be a bit of nothing and fit in and
not have your own sense of exploring and interest,
which is why I think it is becoming so much more
attractive to work more independently or cohesively
with other independent workers and that is quite
an exciting time and we can go for little bits
of the journey, it's a bit sort of where you
join each other for a bit of the walk and that
it's in that time and that moment and for that
project or whatever it is and then you're just
learning all the time from different people different
styles and it's great when you're doing that
because you can take a bit of what you have enjoyed
and basically rework it to be your own you know
steal it and that's great that's what we're all
doing but you're doing it outside of a framework
that can hold people back. No I completely agree
and I think that entrepreneurship is not for
everyone but I think it's something that you
know you don't really get taught much in school
about it's just like okay so you'll have a job
and that's where you'll stay for the rest of
your life and I don't know um don't get me started
on the schools and that's another podcast all
together I think but going back to so you launched
skin sense I believe it was 2016 yes Was that
always the plan? Because that uses the same Lamela
technology as the Ultrasun products. Was that
unique? So it's the Lamela technology that locks
Ultrasun in and keeps it so sturdy, whether you're
in the water or perspiring. And I love you for
the question. No, it was never the plan. Never,
ever. I never even, I was doing my thing. I was
in Ultrasun zone, you know, and that's what I
did. More and more, I was starting to consult
for some other skincare brands, makeup brands,
be part of the build of new launches. I was very
involved with probably, I think probably the
number one selling makeup brand in the UK. But
anyway, I was very involved in that element and
the behind the scenes stuff. One day I just thought
I literally came home from work. I used to wear
bare minerals foundation You know the sort of
tap swirly stuff that yes, and it had been great
But obviously I was getting a bit older and my
skin was getting drier and I looked in the mirror
when I came home from work And I looked like
a tarahawk, which is only a reference You'll
know if you were born after about before about
72, but basically all my lines and wrinkles were
showing us this isn't fair I put my moisturizer
on my serum on this morning and I thought I looked
great my skin looked great this morning but now
it's looking really dry and and you know has
been beaten by the day and I thought guys so
annoying because and this was honestly the stupidity
of the conversation my head so annoying because
like with ultrasound that can stick in your skin
right through the day but with moisturizer And
it was like, hang on, because moisturiser predominantly
evaporates quite quickly, like two, three, it
depends what brand, what you're using, but it
tends to evaporate quite quickly, especially
if you're in fresh air or it's summertime or
you're perspiring. And I was like, hang on a
minute. Why don't we make hydration, anti -aging,
you know, use all these ingredients that we love
in the skincare industry, like hyaluronic acid
and retinols and peptides, why don't we put them
into a laminate formulation? So it was a bit
of a, it was literally a light bulb moment. I
hate to use that phrase, it's so overused, but
it really was like, hang on. So I went back to
the labs and they all went, wow, it'd be so expensive.
You can't do it. You'll never do it with the
margins and the retail and... I said, well, can
we just try and see what we can do and see, test
it, see how long it lasts? And when we test it,
we got on the first... On the first product we
made, we got something like 14 hours guaranteed
efficacy, and we'd only just begun. And by the
time we'd finished, we were able to lock in those
ingredients, test them in vivo on the skin, 24
hours later, and find that we still had something
like 94 % of that ingredient still locked into
the skin, still working for the skin, still being
ingested. So we were really excited. And before
I knew it, being me, I was like, right. What
are we going to do? Let's go. Let's do this.
So there was lots of trademarking and patenting
and all of that sort of shenanigans going on.
And then Skinsense was born and it was always
going to be this small little brand that would
sit next to Ultrasun and maybe people that had
used Ultrasun might skip into SkinSense a little
bit, but it's grown and grown. So it was not,
there wasn't really even a proper business plan.
It was just a thing and that's how it would go.
But you say like, let's see, I think that's kind
of, that really stuck out for me because I think
that's something that, you know, a lot of us
come up against these people who say, oh no,
this can't be done or this is too expensive or
this, that, and especially women. Let's be honest,
like there's no funding for that. Let's see.
Let's just see. Like not saying you're wrong,
but let's see. And I think that, you know. I
do have a thing, a little theory. I sometimes
say, sometimes because we were in a big open
plan office here and sometimes I'm on a hurry
to get into a meeting in a little room or to
get out the door and I'll two or three people.
And what I have this thing is if my feet keep
moving, I can talk, I can talk and answer questions,
but my feet need to keep moving right now. And
I'm a bit like that with new projects. It's like,
okay, you know. I hear your no, but I'm gonna
raise you and just keep trying. I think one of
the lessons, I learned a really important lesson
with Space NK, actually. I'll just be really
honest about it, because I'm not gonna say anything
mean or bad. When I first presented Ultrasun,
years ago, it looked a lot more like paint or
Ron Seal. It was really... didn't look very attractive
on the shelf. It was a bright blue label. It
just didn't really look great. It was very pharmaceutical
and not very attractive. And I took it to Space
NK and one of the buyers from New York was in
and she actually said to me, over my cold dead
body, will those products ever go into any of
my stores? Americans just shoot from the hip.
Okay, so I don't really get where you are on
this. Is that a maybe? And I came back and I
decided that no was just short for not yet. They
just hadn't completed the rest. It was noot yet.
And what we did is when we rebranded, I went
back to that individual and said, hey, we're
rebranding. I know you didn't like our previous
look. Could I get your feedback on these? These
are a few visuals I'd really, really sort of
be so grateful if you could just say yes or no.
And she got engaged and then we became the best
selling sun care in Space NK. So that was a wonderful
example of where from absolute hard no, We will
get there, but we might just need to walk a bit
of a roundabout path. And honestly, this conversation,
the time has just flown. Honestly, I can't believe
we're nearly... Hello, I'm so sorry. I feel I've
just gone all around the houses. Sorry. No, not
at all. But I just want to touch on something
you were saying earlier that, you know, business
is personal. And I wondered what kind of personal
mindset challenges you encountered as you were
kind of building your career and what were the
biggest lessons in that sense that you could...
I think from my end look I don't want to say
imposter syndrome we talk about all the time
don't we we hear about it all the time I think
we all have it to a certain extent I don't know
anyone that doesn't and I think that's quite
can be quite debilitating and what I tend to
do is wholeheartedly rely on the people around
me to help me and ensure I'm giving that back
as well and really working with people who might
feel those insecurities and those you know does
anyone realize it's just me here you know having
a go. The other thing is I Look, through our
journeys, my daughter was very ill for several
years, and that, I think, heightened my awareness
to everybody else's wellbeing as well, my team,
their families, and my customers, genuinely.
You know, we never know what people are going
through, and it's so easy just to assume and
take on face value. And so that mantra, we've
always had a mantra of wanting to help people,
but talking about confidence in your skin and
supporting that message rather than where the
beauty industry can be a bit bullying and can
make you feel inadequate. That's something I've
shied away from also with very young people coming
into very high sort of strength skincare. I've
probably been a bit vocal in the past that I
don't personally agree. I don't want young men
and women or young children feel that they've
got to step into retinols and, you know, use
the latest trend. It really worries me and it
saddens me and I won't market to children. I
will market SPF for the use on children. Of course
I will, because that is very, very important
and key, especially in those early vulnerable
years of skin health. But I think that for me,
we are all walking along in our business journey,
potentially dragging a lot of backpacks behind
us of who we might be caring for, worrying about,
have lost or, you know, and that means that I've...
probably welcomed the business hippie in me a
little bit more than I did 10 years ago. You
know, she's very welcome in my life now, whereas
maybe before I felt she might be holding me back
and making me, you know, you were talking about
on that podcast that maybe there's people that
should have been culled at some point, you know,
earlier in the journey. And maybe I have. felt
that there was a disconnect between what maybe
I needed and what I should be doing and what
I felt I wanted and now I've let go of that disconnect
and I go with what I feel and what is right and
I really enjoy that. because that's a really
good basis for all decisions. So as everything
through my daughter's battle, I've become stronger
and more resilient and more able to stay in my
lane and my moment. And so I'm now incredibly
grateful for that. But, you know, I think it's
just remembering that people have got other journeys
in parallel to what you're seeing at the time.
Of course. And I feel like you don't, you can't
work on your business without working on yourself.
I think that's something that I've had to learn
over the years. But thank you so much, Abby,
for chatting with me. Honestly, I don't know
where the time has gone, but I could obviously
just chat to you all day. Oh, bless your heart.
I'm a busy lady, so I will let you go. Thank
you so much again. Oh, I've enjoyed it very much.
Thank you, Rona. I hope you enjoyed that episode.
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