WEBVTT 00:00:12.589 --> 00:00:15.310 Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. 00:00:15.849 --> 00:00:18.690 I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist 00:00:18.690 --> 00:00:21.629 and founder of copy led branding agency, Smart 00:00:21.629 --> 00:00:24.350 Beauty Creative. We're here to create your brand 00:00:24.350 --> 00:00:31.250 voice and craft the story behind it. Hi everyone, 00:00:31.309 --> 00:00:33.969 welcome to today's episode. I'm really excited 00:00:33.969 --> 00:00:36.409 to introduce today's guest. Her name is Karen 00:00:36.409 --> 00:00:39.659 Gilbert. probably one of the most respected voices 00:00:39.659 --> 00:00:42.820 in perfumery education. I really love what she's 00:00:42.820 --> 00:00:46.159 doing because she's helping to demystify the 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:48.820 world of fragrance creation. I think the world 00:00:48.820 --> 00:00:51.399 of perfumery is becoming much more democratic 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:56.500 and it's less about training for 20 years in 00:00:56.500 --> 00:00:59.299 France. Like people that want to start a perfume 00:00:59.299 --> 00:01:02.780 brand and don't know where to begin can access 00:01:02.780 --> 00:01:06.859 that world and understand how it all works. It's 00:01:06.859 --> 00:01:10.900 not shrouded in secrecy and people like Karen 00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:13.659 are helping to bring it out of the shadows which 00:01:13.659 --> 00:01:17.500 I am all for because I think that perfumery needs, 00:01:18.180 --> 00:01:20.040 well it definitely needs to be more diverse and 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:22.939 it needs more fresh voices. I think there's a 00:01:22.939 --> 00:01:28.040 kind of Swiss French cultural monopoly on the 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:30.519 world of fragrance quite frankly and I'm really 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:33.519 excited that Karen, people like Karen are helping 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:37.480 to bring it to the masses and get more people 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:39.939 involved. She originally trained as a makeup 00:01:39.939 --> 00:01:43.260 artist and then stumbled into the fragrance world 00:01:43.260 --> 00:01:46.459 through working for IFF, and that's International 00:01:46.459 --> 00:01:49.659 Flavours and Fragrances, a huge fragrance company, 00:01:50.219 --> 00:01:53.719 one of the main ones. And she worked for five 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.620 years as a fragrance evaluator. So what an evaluator 00:01:57.620 --> 00:02:00.079 does, they are the bridge between the client 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:03.060 and the perfumer. So they take the client's brief 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:07.019 and they help the perfumer interpret it, but 00:02:07.019 --> 00:02:09.860 they're the ones that are keeping a close eye 00:02:09.860 --> 00:02:12.819 and making sure that there is that commercial 00:02:12.819 --> 00:02:16.819 angle and that it ticks all the boxes, basically. 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:20.819 So they're able to interpret the client's vision 00:02:20.819 --> 00:02:24.680 a lot more effectively, but they also understand 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:28.750 the language of perfume. So they can help the 00:02:28.750 --> 00:02:32.530 perfumer realise that vision much more effectively 00:02:32.530 --> 00:02:34.770 than if the perfumer were just dealing with the 00:02:34.770 --> 00:02:38.349 client. And they have to be up on industry trends 00:02:38.349 --> 00:02:41.189 and what's happening in the market. And it's 00:02:41.189 --> 00:02:44.349 a really interesting role that very rarely gets 00:02:44.349 --> 00:02:47.349 spoken about, like I say, in this kind of shrouded 00:02:47.349 --> 00:02:50.050 secret world of perfumery. but it's a fascinating 00:02:50.050 --> 00:02:54.310 one. Karen has also authored several books including 00:02:54.310 --> 00:02:58.349 Perfume, the Art and Craft of Fragrance and she 00:02:58.349 --> 00:03:01.069 hosts a podcast herself, the Perfume Making Podcast, 00:03:01.469 --> 00:03:04.550 which I was recently a guest on. There's a lot 00:03:04.550 --> 00:03:07.090 of cross -pollination in the podcasting world, 00:03:07.210 --> 00:03:09.610 which is brilliant. and I'll include a link to 00:03:09.610 --> 00:03:11.650 that episode in the show notes too. She teaches 00:03:11.650 --> 00:03:15.930 perfumery worldwide through her artisan perfumery 00:03:15.930 --> 00:03:19.210 mastermind program and from her scent studio 00:03:19.210 --> 00:03:21.849 where she is based down in the New Forest, really 00:03:21.849 --> 00:03:23.949 beautiful part of the country. I would definitely 00:03:23.949 --> 00:03:26.349 recommend visiting if you haven't already. There 00:03:26.349 --> 00:03:29.360 are actually... horses that just roam around 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.080 free which for me as a lifelong Londoner was 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:35.000 just mind -blowing. In our conversation we unpacked 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.740 her career journey, debunked a lot of misconceptions 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:41.139 about how fragrances are created, we spoke about 00:03:41.139 --> 00:03:44.639 the psychology of scent so if you're fragrance 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:46.680 enthusiast or if you're just curious about the 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:48.520 world of scent I'm sure you will get a lot out 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:50.860 of this chat and hope you enjoy it as much as 00:03:50.860 --> 00:03:53.300 I did. Thank you so much for joining me on the 00:03:53.300 --> 00:03:55.060 podcast today. It's really lovely to have you 00:03:55.060 --> 00:03:57.740 on as a guest. Now you started your career as 00:03:57.740 --> 00:04:01.620 an evaluator at IFF and since then you've become 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:04.460 like a renowned educator and author. What was 00:04:04.460 --> 00:04:07.819 it that drew you initially to the world of Scent? 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:11.500 Like how did that journey begin? Completely by 00:04:11.500 --> 00:04:18.459 accident and it's I suppose a really unusual 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:21.000 way of getting into the industry because most 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:23.759 people that I come into contact with now are 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:28.420 so passionate about fragrance and they desperately 00:04:28.420 --> 00:04:30.120 want to get into the industry because they're 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:33.319 so passionate about scent. I literally fell into 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:35.860 it by accident. I was at the London College of 00:04:35.860 --> 00:04:41.379 Fashion. I was training as a makeup artist. I 00:04:41.379 --> 00:04:44.410 decided that even though I loved the course that 00:04:44.410 --> 00:04:47.350 I was doing, I preferred the cosmetic science 00:04:47.350 --> 00:04:49.990 side of it, like the lab work, if you like, the 00:04:49.990 --> 00:04:52.930 making stuff in the lab, rather than being a 00:04:52.930 --> 00:04:54.790 makeup artist. And I knew that I wasn't really 00:04:54.790 --> 00:04:58.589 cut out for that sort of cutthroat fashion makeup 00:04:58.589 --> 00:05:02.990 artistry world. And so when it came to do a work 00:05:02.990 --> 00:05:05.170 placement, which we all had to do, I asked my 00:05:05.170 --> 00:05:08.860 science teacher on the program if she could find 00:05:08.860 --> 00:05:11.220 me a work placement that wasn't going to work 00:05:11.220 --> 00:05:14.379 for a magazine or assisting a makeup artist on 00:05:14.379 --> 00:05:17.420 a job. And she found me this work placement and 00:05:17.420 --> 00:05:21.040 it was two weeks. And I think I had two different 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:23.860 options. One was going to the body shop to work 00:05:23.860 --> 00:05:27.639 in formulation in the lab. And one was at this 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:29.920 place called IFF that I'd never heard of. And 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:32.019 I really wanted to do the body shop one because 00:05:32.019 --> 00:05:35.079 that was what I thought was most exciting at 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:37.040 the time. And I'm like fragrance lab. I don't 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:40.519 even know what that is. But when I went for the 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:43.120 interview and for whatever reason, the body shot 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.199 one didn't work out. So I ended up taking the, 00:05:45.339 --> 00:05:48.300 it was a two week placement and it was in the 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:51.540 sales office. in the Hammersmith sales office 00:05:51.540 --> 00:05:54.920 for IFF and this just like this whole world that 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.899 I didn't even know about opened up and I'd always 00:05:57.899 --> 00:06:01.480 been interested in blending essential oils and 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:03.560 I'd done that when I was a teenager. I think 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:05.620 I got my first set of essential oils when an 00:06:05.620 --> 00:06:07.839 aromatherapy book when I was about 15 or 16. 00:06:08.459 --> 00:06:12.120 But I had never really connected the two things 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:16.120 like aromatherapy with perfumery. I just didn't 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:18.040 it didn't even occur to me that the two things 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:20.699 were connected back when I was a teenager. And 00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:25.279 so it was really through getting that work placement. 00:06:25.860 --> 00:06:29.139 and really learning about all of the stuff that 00:06:29.139 --> 00:06:31.379 goes on behind the scenes in the fragrance world 00:06:31.379 --> 00:06:35.759 that made me realize how amazing scent is and 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:38.319 how powerful it is. I've always been interested 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:42.480 in wellbeing from a very, very young age. And 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.620 one of the things that I had access to through 00:06:45.620 --> 00:06:49.980 my kind of journey, I ended up work, um, working, 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:51.980 did the two week work placement and then ended 00:06:51.980 --> 00:06:54.660 up, they offered me a job a few years later, 00:06:54.660 --> 00:06:59.620 actually. And a lot of the research that they 00:06:59.620 --> 00:07:03.920 were doing at the time was all about how scent 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:09.639 can help you with your mood, how people respond 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:11.500 to scent. So there was a lot of research at the 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:13.720 time in something that they called aromacology, 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:15.939 which was different from aromatherapy, where 00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:19.579 I was used to thinking about how the chemical 00:07:19.579 --> 00:07:22.199 components of an essential oil work on your skin 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:25.750 or your physiology or your you know, your psychology 00:07:25.750 --> 00:07:29.550 to help you feel different. But what they were 00:07:29.550 --> 00:07:32.269 doing was hooking up people to, you know, ECG, 00:07:32.370 --> 00:07:33.610 I think that's what they call it, you know, when 00:07:33.610 --> 00:07:36.149 they kind of put the monitors on your brain activity 00:07:36.149 --> 00:07:38.870 and getting people to smell sense. So not just 00:07:38.870 --> 00:07:42.970 naturals, but just regular formulated sense as 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:45.569 well. And monitoring, you know, what fragrances 00:07:45.569 --> 00:07:48.129 helped people to feel calmer, more energized. 00:07:48.810 --> 00:07:51.569 And it was then that I realized that actually 00:07:51.569 --> 00:07:54.860 it was more than just perfume. And I think what 00:07:54.860 --> 00:07:57.939 we did, you know, I worked on a lot of own labels. 00:07:58.779 --> 00:08:02.420 So it eventually turned into, it was applications 00:08:02.420 --> 00:08:05.279 lab at the beginning, and then it eventually 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:09.680 turned into an evaluation job. And we were working, 00:08:09.860 --> 00:08:12.319 where I was based, we were working a lot on own 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:15.339 label, supermarket own label. So UK brands, so 00:08:15.339 --> 00:08:20.100 Sainsbury's, Tesco, M &S, fragrances for room 00:08:20.100 --> 00:08:24.699 fragrance, room sprays for body products for 00:08:24.699 --> 00:08:27.579 antiperspirants, for things like impulse body 00:08:27.579 --> 00:08:31.620 spray links, that kind of thing, and also for 00:08:31.620 --> 00:08:36.360 laundry detergent as well. And so what I learned 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:39.500 through that time in my life in that in that 00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:43.110 career was that scent is not just about perfume 00:08:43.110 --> 00:08:45.590 that you spray on skin that people think of as 00:08:45.590 --> 00:08:49.490 perfume, but it goes into everything and every 00:08:49.490 --> 00:08:53.809 little piece along the way contributes to not 00:08:53.809 --> 00:08:59.169 only the claims of a product. So if you are creating 00:08:59.169 --> 00:09:03.350 a body product that has claims that it's nourishing 00:09:03.350 --> 00:09:06.889 or, you know, skin softening, the fragrance is 00:09:06.889 --> 00:09:10.830 pivotal in supporting those claims, not from 00:09:10.830 --> 00:09:15.559 a chemistry perspective from a psychology perspective. 00:09:15.700 --> 00:09:18.159 And that wasn't something that as a consumer, 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.970 I really understood. And The fact that they were 00:09:22.970 --> 00:09:26.129 running focus groups on how a scent performed 00:09:26.129 --> 00:09:30.210 in a different product, same product, but people 00:09:30.210 --> 00:09:32.730 were perceiving the functionality of that product 00:09:32.730 --> 00:09:34.590 very differently, depending on the scent that 00:09:34.590 --> 00:09:37.450 was in it. And that was something that really, 00:09:37.450 --> 00:09:40.210 really drew me in and fascinated me. So I think 00:09:40.210 --> 00:09:42.629 that is really where I fell down the scent rabbit 00:09:42.629 --> 00:09:44.649 hole. When those two things connected, where 00:09:44.649 --> 00:09:46.850 I realized that it wasn't just about something 00:09:46.850 --> 00:09:50.529 that smelled nice. It was about something that 00:09:50.529 --> 00:09:53.669 we could utilize for our own wellbeing as well. 00:09:54.090 --> 00:09:56.429 I think our sense of smell, I mean, it is the 00:09:56.429 --> 00:09:58.850 most primitive of all of our senses. And I think 00:09:58.850 --> 00:10:01.490 people do tend to underestimate how powerful 00:10:01.490 --> 00:10:05.009 it is and the effect it has on us. Yeah, absolutely. 00:10:05.009 --> 00:10:07.730 And that's something that I remember writing 00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:14.350 about for an essay in a training that I did back 00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:19.059 in the early days. And that was, I think, I can't 00:10:19.059 --> 00:10:21.120 even remember what the topic of the essay was 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.539 that I had to write. So I did, um, some training 00:10:23.539 --> 00:10:26.480 with, with IFF and I did the, I think it's called 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.179 ICATS now, the Plymouth University, uh, fragrance 00:10:30.179 --> 00:10:35.379 and business training. And it was all about the, 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.620 you know, the origins of scent and our sense 00:10:37.620 --> 00:10:39.740 of smell and how that all works. And that's something 00:10:39.740 --> 00:10:42.940 that I weave into a lot of my training now, my, 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:46.259 the teaching that I do, because I think it's 00:10:46.259 --> 00:10:49.169 something that I suppose it's a little bit like 00:10:49.169 --> 00:10:51.330 preaching to the choir. If you've come in to 00:10:51.330 --> 00:10:53.629 learn about how to create fragrance or more about 00:10:53.629 --> 00:10:56.250 fragrance, you understand the power of your sense 00:10:56.250 --> 00:11:00.009 of smell. But I don't think people really on 00:11:00.009 --> 00:11:03.669 a day -to -day level, unless they lose it for 00:11:03.669 --> 00:11:07.549 some reason, appreciate the power of what we 00:11:07.549 --> 00:11:11.289 have in our nose. And people think about it as 00:11:11.289 --> 00:11:13.970 the nose training your nose, but it really is 00:11:13.970 --> 00:11:18.809 the brain connection. makes it so powerful. It's 00:11:18.809 --> 00:11:22.090 about the way that we as human beings process 00:11:22.090 --> 00:11:25.250 smell. It's connected to our hypothalamus, our 00:11:25.250 --> 00:11:28.370 limbic system, which regulates so many other 00:11:28.370 --> 00:11:30.870 things in our physiology, you know, our body 00:11:30.870 --> 00:11:35.049 temperature, our... behaviors, our hormonal regulation 00:11:35.049 --> 00:11:37.990 as well. And obviously the one that everybody 00:11:37.990 --> 00:11:40.509 talks about, it's where we process our memories 00:11:40.509 --> 00:11:43.309 and that's why it's so intrinsically linked. 00:11:43.409 --> 00:11:45.529 But I love talking about that stuff. I think 00:11:45.529 --> 00:11:49.549 it's such a powerful way to learn about. your 00:11:49.549 --> 00:11:53.090 sense of smell and scent. And I think it's fundamental 00:11:53.090 --> 00:11:55.450 for anyone learning how to create fragrance. 00:11:56.149 --> 00:11:58.889 Understanding how people process smell is just 00:11:58.889 --> 00:12:00.870 fundamental. You can't learn to make a perfume 00:12:00.870 --> 00:12:02.649 if you don't understand how the sense of smell 00:12:02.649 --> 00:12:05.190 works. Definitely. And do you think now that 00:12:05.190 --> 00:12:08.309 more and more people are kind of waking up to 00:12:08.309 --> 00:12:10.789 how our sense of smell works and the power of 00:12:10.789 --> 00:12:13.629 scent that we're choosing perfumes or buying 00:12:13.629 --> 00:12:15.889 perfumes, wearing perfumes in a different way 00:12:15.889 --> 00:12:19.190 that we're not necessarily wearing them to smell 00:12:19.190 --> 00:12:21.429 good for others. Although, you know, we still 00:12:21.429 --> 00:12:23.029 can do that and there's nothing wrong with that. 00:12:23.049 --> 00:12:24.750 But we're also just wearing them just to smell, 00:12:24.830 --> 00:12:27.269 just to feel good in ourselves rather than this 00:12:27.269 --> 00:12:31.169 outward objective appearance, if that makes sense. 00:12:31.409 --> 00:12:34.250 Yeah, it's something that I did a little bit 00:12:34.250 --> 00:12:37.429 of research on way back when. And it's something 00:12:37.429 --> 00:12:41.450 that I've always believed. I think Now what's 00:12:41.450 --> 00:12:43.769 happening, I've been talking about scent and 00:12:43.769 --> 00:12:47.730 wellbeing for, I don't know, well over 15 years 00:12:47.730 --> 00:12:50.929 now, you know, many, many years. And for me, 00:12:50.929 --> 00:12:53.970 it was always about how does this smell? How 00:12:53.970 --> 00:12:57.090 does this perfume? How does this combination 00:12:57.090 --> 00:13:02.669 of scented materials make me feel? And the marketing 00:13:02.669 --> 00:13:05.450 that we were seeing at the time, going back to 00:13:05.450 --> 00:13:10.480 sort of 80s, 90s, I suppose even early 2000s, 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:14.220 it was all about aspirational lifestyle. It was 00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:16.879 still very much entrenched in that seventies, 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.820 eighties vibe of, you know, wear this perfume 00:13:19.820 --> 00:13:22.700 and you know, you'll get the guy, the girl, the, 00:13:23.059 --> 00:13:26.139 it was very, yeah, it was very aspirational. 00:13:26.259 --> 00:13:28.539 It was very lifestyle. It was very sexualized. 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:33.200 And when I actually thought about that myself 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.860 as a consumer. It's like, it didn't really make 00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:39.100 sense to me personally. And I ran a little poll 00:13:39.100 --> 00:13:41.679 of my audience, you know, why do you wear perfume? 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:44.620 And pretty much everyone said, because it makes 00:13:44.620 --> 00:13:47.559 me feel good. It's that spritz of a scent before 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:50.320 a night out. It's that if I'm feeling a little 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:53.039 bit crappy or not confident, I just, you know, 00:13:53.299 --> 00:13:55.779 my favorite, this a particular smell, a particular 00:13:55.779 --> 00:13:58.600 scent that I can spritz on. And it just makes 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:02.639 me feel much better. And that is something that 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:06.639 brands weren't exploring until lots of us out 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:11.309 there in the blogosphere and the kind of in the 00:14:11.309 --> 00:14:14.909 artisan world, where actually a lot of people 00:14:14.909 --> 00:14:19.269 came in from natural perfumery by way of aromatherapy 00:14:19.269 --> 00:14:21.570 and wellbeing. And I think a lot of the brands 00:14:21.570 --> 00:14:23.809 now are talking about it and it's become, you 00:14:23.809 --> 00:14:26.409 know, functional fragrances, wellness in perfume 00:14:26.409 --> 00:14:28.789 has been a trend over the last few years since 00:14:28.789 --> 00:14:33.159 COVID actually, I think. But before that, we 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:35.480 were talking about it. Like there were lots and 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.740 lots and lots of us and aromatherapists have 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:41.980 been talking about it, but the industry didn't 00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:46.139 connect the two and it feels like it's only just 00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:49.759 caught up. Or there's like BS where in regards 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:53.019 to pheromone sense, which Oh, don't even get 00:14:53.019 --> 00:14:56.159 me started. It's so funny. That whole pheromone 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.200 thing. I have journal, I had a few journalists 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:02.590 approach me and in hindsight, Sarah did really 00:15:02.590 --> 00:15:04.809 well on it. She took on the challenge and went 00:15:04.809 --> 00:15:09.250 head to head with them. And for me, I should 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:11.950 have done that, but I was just like, I'm not 00:15:11.950 --> 00:15:14.009 even talking about this because it's just nonsense. 00:15:14.289 --> 00:15:17.389 And I just sort of brushed it away. Whereas Sarah 00:15:17.389 --> 00:15:19.509 was just like, no, I'm going to go in there and 00:15:19.509 --> 00:15:22.690 talk about it. And I was like, I can't even be 00:15:22.690 --> 00:15:25.409 bothered because it's just such nonsense. But 00:15:25.409 --> 00:15:32.340 yeah, I think there is that... the industry trying 00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:36.519 to capitalize still on that oh we wear perfume 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.340 to make us sexy and attract the opposite sex 00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:44.059 it's like such an old trope that's nonsense and 00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:46.740 the only way that they can try and like pull 00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:49.779 that in now is through oh this scent is pheromones 00:15:49.779 --> 00:15:53.679 i mean do we really believe that i think people 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:56.779 maybe want to believe it Is it a guy thing, do 00:15:56.779 --> 00:15:59.240 you think? Do you think a lot of the people who 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:01.820 fall for that pheromone scent are men wanting 00:16:01.820 --> 00:16:03.820 to attract women? Do women really believe in 00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:05.919 that? You said that. I was literally talking 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:08.559 to somebody about this this morning that I watched 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:11.539 a TikTok video and it's a guy, a content creator. 00:16:12.019 --> 00:16:13.960 He's... got an affiliate link at the bottom of 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.059 the screen, selling a perfume. And he was telling 00:16:17.059 --> 00:16:19.159 this story about how he met a girl on a dating 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:21.320 app, met up with her. She didn't look anything 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.200 like her picture. He didn't fancy her, but she 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:26.460 was wearing this scent that he couldn't get out 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:29.259 of his mind. And suddenly he was just wildly 00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:31.460 attracted to her. And if you want to shop this 00:16:31.460 --> 00:16:33.440 scent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I think 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:39.600 I've seen the same one. It's such nonsense. But 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:43.019 it's the same trope, isn't it? As the, oh, you 00:16:43.019 --> 00:16:47.320 know, if you wear this fragrance, you too are 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:50.279 gonna be wearing a designer gown running through 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:55.720 hallways to meet the man of your dreams. I mean... 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.240 Yeah, I mean, there is that kind of escapist 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.519 element that you can become this sort of hyper 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:03.679 real version of yourself, this fantasy version 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:05.700 of yourself. Yeah. through scent, which I kind 00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:08.119 of like that is lovely, but to try and ground 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:11.460 it in this scent will make this person will dupe 00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:13.680 this person into falling for you. Like it's like 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:16.420 love potion number nine. I think it is that as 00:17:16.420 --> 00:17:18.839 well. Isn't it? It's that Disney is Disney -fying 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:21.099 it. I think it's like, Oh, you know, this magic 00:17:21.099 --> 00:17:25.779 spell will kind of like call in your, you know, 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.670 your Love. Just exactly. I remember I used to 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:32.190 go to these like under 16s disco nights when 00:17:32.190 --> 00:17:35.609 I was like about 13 and they actually had, you 00:17:35.609 --> 00:17:37.490 know, those like vending machines with little, 00:17:37.490 --> 00:17:40.009 um, like bouncy balls and things like that, but 00:17:40.009 --> 00:17:42.569 a vending machine of pheromone wipes. I remember 00:17:42.569 --> 00:17:44.970 it clearly that you put a pound in this packet 00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:47.369 of pheromone, pheromone. Don't know what was 00:17:47.369 --> 00:17:50.930 on. Oh my God. I can't even imagine what they 00:17:50.930 --> 00:17:54.049 put in it. But did you fall for it at 16? No, 00:17:54.130 --> 00:17:56.009 luckily, I wasn't rich enough to even have the 00:17:56.009 --> 00:17:58.849 money to to even I remember being intrigued being 00:17:58.849 --> 00:18:00.910 like, Oh, what's you know, what's that all about? 00:18:01.170 --> 00:18:04.190 But yes, it is just crazy how that, you know, 00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:06.410 there is that, like you say, this really beautiful, 00:18:07.470 --> 00:18:09.650 rich array of knowledge and information that 00:18:09.650 --> 00:18:12.549 is isn't tapped into, but yet there is all this 00:18:12.549 --> 00:18:14.700 nonsense out there that people are kind of pushing 00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:16.180 forward instead when they could be telling a 00:18:16.180 --> 00:18:18.599 more authentic story in a way that's a lot more 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:20.720 powerful and a lot more. Yeah, it's pitching 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.059 to the lowest common denominator rather than 00:18:23.059 --> 00:18:26.500 putting the effort in and creating a story around 00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:29.099 the scent. And, you know, we've talked about 00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:31.339 this before, but it's something that I think 00:18:31.339 --> 00:18:34.920 both of us agree on, like the story in scent 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:39.539 creation is so much more powerful. And it's something 00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:42.279 that a lot of mainstream brands still are not 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:46.430 doing very well. No, I was speaking to Nick and 00:18:46.430 --> 00:18:48.450 Pia at Old Fiction about this, and I think Pia 00:18:48.450 --> 00:18:52.470 said that a lot of brands probably wouldn't want 00:18:52.470 --> 00:18:54.789 to change the story they've been telling for 00:18:54.789 --> 00:18:57.650 so long because it would probably affect them 00:18:57.650 --> 00:18:59.950 commercially because, you know, it seems to know 00:18:59.950 --> 00:19:02.849 if it's not broke, don't fix it. Yeah, I guess. 00:19:03.049 --> 00:19:05.369 Much more eloquently than I did, but that's kind 00:19:05.369 --> 00:19:10.069 of... Yeah, and I think that if we're talking, 00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:14.119 you know, big commercial brands, obviously that's 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.019 entrenched in history. And I think it's different 00:19:16.019 --> 00:19:19.359 though. When you look at brands that have got 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:23.640 heritage for many, many, you know, it, it just 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.900 tells itself. And I think it doesn't always need 00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:31.799 new stories because there's so much there already 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:35.039 in the history. But I think if you're a new brand, 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:38.539 if you're a small indie, you definitely do have 00:19:38.539 --> 00:19:42.000 to lean into story because I see a lot of brands 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.799 talking about, oh, well, you know, we use the 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.160 best quality materials or, you know, talking 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.779 about their fragrances in terms of scent notes. 00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:56.019 And that doesn't really tell you anything about 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:59.319 how the perfume smells. No, exactly. Especially 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:01.440 when we know about fragrance and are embedded 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:03.839 in that world. But if you're a consumer off the 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.279 street, you're not going to know what Tonka bean 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:10.950 is. And even if you do, even if you look at a 00:20:10.950 --> 00:20:14.210 scent pyramid on a website and you see all of 00:20:14.210 --> 00:20:17.630 the notes there, it doesn't give you any indication 00:20:17.630 --> 00:20:20.230 about what that fragrance smells like because 00:20:20.230 --> 00:20:23.230 you could have three different fragrances with 00:20:23.230 --> 00:20:25.509 the same scent notes on the same pyramid and 00:20:25.509 --> 00:20:27.650 they would smell completely different. It's all 00:20:27.650 --> 00:20:29.920 about you know what else is in there that they 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.000 don't talk about you know how it's arranged in 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.819 terms of structure and the ratios of the materials 00:20:35.819 --> 00:20:39.240 you know is it a tonka forward fragrance and 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:41.980 is it like really kind of sweet and powdery or 00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:44.779 is that just a hint in the back note you can't 00:20:44.779 --> 00:20:46.759 really tell from looking at scent notes like 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:51.279 that so yeah i think story is much much more 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:53.740 helpful definitely it's about evoking a mood 00:20:53.740 --> 00:20:57.519 or an image or something but gives you kind of 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.200 it obviously you can never capture in words what 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:02.160 something smells like but it gives you an idea 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:03.960 of okay if you're this kind of person and you 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:08.059 appreciate this kind of you know imagery or atmosphere 00:21:08.059 --> 00:21:10.359 then you might like this scent but still there 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:12.460 is it is a challenge and i think that's kind 00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:14.799 of what people underestimate and i know that 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:16.940 you've taught thousands of students over the 00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:18.900 years what are some what are some of the other 00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:22.140 misconceptions people have when it comes to fragrance 00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:25.759 creation? I think it's changing a lot. So if 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.000 I kind of dial it back to when I first stepped 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:31.819 back into the industry, so I was out of the industry 00:21:31.819 --> 00:21:34.059 for quite a long time, about six or so years, 00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.059 doing something completely different. And I decided 00:21:37.059 --> 00:21:40.900 back in 2010 to come back into teaching perfumery 00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:44.089 and you know, for a variety of reasons. Personally, 00:21:44.130 --> 00:21:46.650 it was more for my own sanity and mental health 00:21:46.650 --> 00:21:49.269 and anything. Actually, it never, I never intended 00:21:49.269 --> 00:21:51.329 it to turn into a business. Actually, it was 00:21:51.329 --> 00:21:55.690 just a sort of side gig hobby from my day to 00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:57.450 day business that I was running that was driving 00:21:57.450 --> 00:22:01.450 me nuts. But what I realized when I was started 00:22:01.450 --> 00:22:05.279 to do research is that people at that time. And 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.519 I think it has changed a lot now. I think there's 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:09.500 less gatekeeping now. I think it's a lot more 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:15.039 open, but there was this huge misconception, 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.759 I suppose that you, the only way that you could 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.839 make perfume or be a perfumer was to go to one 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.500 of the big industry schools that you had to have 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:28.039 a chemistry degree. Otherwise you wouldn't, there's 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:33.100 no way you could learn to make perfume. that 00:22:33.100 --> 00:22:38.759 you couldn't be self -taught or make perfumes 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.799 safely that people would buy without having the 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.420 tutelage of a master perfumer who had been in 00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:48.839 the industry for a long time. And one of the 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:52.779 things that people didn't realize is that there 00:22:52.779 --> 00:22:56.299 was so much smoke and mirrors in the industry 00:22:56.299 --> 00:22:59.220 and a lot of the, you know, all of the fragrances 00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:03.680 that we see commercially are really only made 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:07.259 by a very, very few companies. So everything 00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:11.000 from, you know, Dior, I mean, I don't know about 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.420 Dior now. I'm probably don't quote me on this 00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:14.940 because I don't know what, cause I'm a lot of 00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:16.940 the big companies now have in -house perfumers, 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:19.859 but you know, mainstream commercial fragrance 00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:23.900 brands generally, they pitch to all of the fragrance 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:27.880 houses and you might have a collection of fragrances 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:32.019 from a brand and one perfume is made by IFF, 00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:34.859 another one is made by Giver Dan, another one 00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:38.859 might be made by a smaller fragrance house. And 00:23:38.859 --> 00:23:42.839 it's not a, it's a very tiny industry in terms 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.559 of commercial freight. It's like volume is huge. 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.740 Um, but there, there weren't many people and 00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:51.579 there are not really still many kind of perfume, 00:23:51.579 --> 00:23:54.539 you know, commercial perfumers out there who, 00:23:54.579 --> 00:23:59.119 um, are working in the industry. And I think 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:02.119 a lot of people didn't realize that actually, 00:24:02.180 --> 00:24:04.339 you know, UK is something that you can learn. 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:06.420 You don't, there is a reason, there's a really 00:24:06.420 --> 00:24:10.960 specific reason. I think why the commercial fragrance 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:13.880 industry trains perfumers the way that they do 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:19.539 and why it takes as long as it does. And don't 00:24:19.539 --> 00:24:21.900 get me wrong, you know, they're masters at their 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:27.589 craft and they are very, very, very highly trained. 00:24:28.089 --> 00:24:30.410 But the commercial fragrance industry, the majority 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:34.769 of the business, I suppose, the volume in terms 00:24:34.769 --> 00:24:38.589 of sales comes from selling, you know, tons of 00:24:38.589 --> 00:24:43.390 fragrance to big brands, big organizations, things 00:24:43.390 --> 00:24:47.509 like Unilever, P &G. And a lot of that fragrance 00:24:47.509 --> 00:24:52.029 work is based around creating scents for laundry 00:24:52.029 --> 00:24:55.599 detergent. functional products like toilet cleaner, 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.759 products that you actually need to be a technical, 00:24:59.779 --> 00:25:02.440 you need to be a very proficient technical perfumer 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:06.480 to create fragrances like that. Creating a fragrance 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:11.880 for an alcohol base is so much simpler in terms 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:17.099 of how it's going to perform than creating a 00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:18.940 fragrance for a laundry detergent that's got 00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:21.599 to last through a wash or creating a fragrance 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:23.940 for a toilet cleaner that has got this bleach 00:25:23.940 --> 00:25:27.740 back note or for an air freshener aerosol that 00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:31.619 needs to cover a maloda. For me, they're very, 00:25:31.619 --> 00:25:35.089 very different. And so what I teach, what I talk 00:25:35.089 --> 00:25:38.309 about a lot is artisan perfumery. So I'm not 00:25:38.309 --> 00:25:41.009 training people to go into the industry. And 00:25:41.009 --> 00:25:43.009 I think if you want to go into the industry and 00:25:43.009 --> 00:25:45.690 become a commercial perfumer, you really do have 00:25:45.690 --> 00:25:48.730 to go through those steps because it's a very 00:25:48.730 --> 00:25:51.430 different world. And those perfumers, they are 00:25:51.710 --> 00:25:53.910 They have to know their materials inside out 00:25:53.910 --> 00:25:56.170 because they're not hands on with materials every 00:25:56.170 --> 00:25:58.430 day. They're formulating on a spreadsheet on 00:25:58.430 --> 00:26:02.069 a computer. This image where you've got every 00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:05.069 perfumer surrounded by a great organ full of 00:26:05.069 --> 00:26:08.089 materials is a massive myth. You know, they are 00:26:08.089 --> 00:26:10.630 at their desk tapping away into spreadsheets. 00:26:10.650 --> 00:26:12.549 They're formulating in their head. They know 00:26:12.549 --> 00:26:16.549 exactly what point one increase of a particular 00:26:16.549 --> 00:26:18.670 material is going to do within that formulation. 00:26:19.029 --> 00:26:22.250 And that takes many, many years, like decades 00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:25.170 of, of perfection and study. And also they have 00:26:25.170 --> 00:26:27.490 access to historical formulas that the companies 00:26:27.490 --> 00:26:30.490 have been using. And, you know, they do a lot 00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:34.309 of GCMS analysis on other companies fragrances. 00:26:34.690 --> 00:26:37.029 So, you know, this is something that comes up 00:26:37.029 --> 00:26:40.549 a lot where the dupes and the clones, you know, 00:26:40.769 --> 00:26:44.549 copycat perfumes. And what people don't talk 00:26:44.549 --> 00:26:47.630 about is the fact that the industry do that anyway. 00:26:47.990 --> 00:26:50.789 I said to someone the other day, it was on a 00:26:50.789 --> 00:26:55.369 post on Instagram that most people don't realize 00:26:55.369 --> 00:27:00.349 the industry, the big companies, they're always 00:27:00.349 --> 00:27:04.369 analyzing their competitors fragrances using 00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:08.670 GCMS and then doing a twist. And, you know, it's 00:27:08.670 --> 00:27:11.009 not really copying. It's a lot of the commercial 00:27:11.009 --> 00:27:13.589 perfumery, the world of commercial perfumery 00:27:13.589 --> 00:27:15.470 is just, everything seems to smell the same. 00:27:15.589 --> 00:27:18.369 Is that why? Yeah. And, and the industry in itself 00:27:18.369 --> 00:27:21.109 is, is built on plagiarism, if we're going to 00:27:21.109 --> 00:27:24.349 be really brutally honest, but it's like remixing 00:27:24.349 --> 00:27:26.250 things. And I suppose it's like the music industry, 00:27:26.470 --> 00:27:29.650 every industry remixes ideas from the past, but 00:27:29.650 --> 00:27:32.089 literally, you know, ripping a fragrance formulation 00:27:32.089 --> 00:27:35.119 from a GCMS and kind of going, okay. Like, how 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.339 can we trickle this down into a fragrance for 00:27:38.339 --> 00:27:43.759 a body spray or an own label air freshener? And 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:46.859 the set with, you know, being transparent, the 00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:49.559 companies that produce the originals also create 00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:52.420 copycats of those originals and sell those to 00:27:52.420 --> 00:27:55.640 different companies as well. And I think people 00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:57.700 think that the clone and the dupe companies, 00:27:57.819 --> 00:28:01.039 who do we think? is actually making these perfumes 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:03.940 for the dupe and the clone companies. It's the 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:07.420 same. And why have they not said anything about 00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:09.240 it? It's because the same companies are still 00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:11.240 making the money from them. At the end of the 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:13.680 day, they're still creating those formulations. 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:17.279 And, you know, of course, like they're all trying 00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:19.559 to compete with each other. So they are inventing 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:23.099 molecules and keeping them as what we call captives. 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:26.460 So if you have a captive molecule and you're 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:29.619 someone like IFF, what it means is you're not 00:28:29.619 --> 00:28:32.839 selling, you've invented that thing, that component, 00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:35.980 and you're not selling that to Giverdan perfumers 00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:40.619 or, you know, Robertet perfumers. You only are 00:28:40.619 --> 00:28:43.160 keeping it for your own perfumers to use. which 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:45.799 means that it won't pop up on a GCMS because 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.359 people don't know it exists. And that happened 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:51.119 many, many years. Like when I was in the industry, 00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:54.039 you know, we tried to copy angel so many times, 00:28:54.500 --> 00:28:56.519 but the company that made it quest at the time, 00:28:56.779 --> 00:28:59.700 they had a component that was a captive molecule. 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.200 So no one could get close to it until it got 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:06.059 to a point where, you know, they'd almost squeezed 00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:09.269 all the juice out of that. that particular material, 00:29:09.430 --> 00:29:12.269 that molecule, that scent direction, and then 00:29:12.269 --> 00:29:15.170 they sold it to other, you know, other perfumers 00:29:15.170 --> 00:29:18.410 could buy it. And so then you were able to get 00:29:18.410 --> 00:29:21.470 much, much closer to a copy of Angel because 00:29:21.470 --> 00:29:24.430 they had that captive. It was available for everyone. 00:29:25.009 --> 00:29:27.210 So I think there's still a lot of smoke and mirrors. 00:29:27.329 --> 00:29:30.990 I think there's a lot more scope now. A lot of 00:29:30.990 --> 00:29:34.279 people are... becoming, especially consumers 00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:36.200 as well, becoming a lot more educated. There's 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.299 a lot more education out there. And my mission, 00:29:39.299 --> 00:29:42.559 I think, when I first started back in 2010 teaching 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:47.220 again was to demystify the industry for people 00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:49.940 who wanted to do it for themselves. And originally 00:29:49.940 --> 00:29:52.819 I didn't ever intend to teach people how to create 00:29:52.819 --> 00:29:56.920 fragrances. to launch brands, it was literally 00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:00.240 doing a one day per natural perfume making class 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:02.619 for people to come and learn how to make their 00:30:02.619 --> 00:30:05.380 own perfume for themselves. And that was that 00:30:05.380 --> 00:30:08.220 that was really all it was for more of a hobby, 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:11.380 a well being. Yeah. And then I started to get 00:30:11.380 --> 00:30:14.420 people asking me, well, well, you know, what 00:30:14.420 --> 00:30:16.539 about synthetics? Could you teach a class with 00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:20.000 mixed media? And then people started to say, 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.019 oh, well, yeah, but I want to launch my own brand. 00:30:22.099 --> 00:30:24.630 Do you, do you teach people how to do that as 00:30:24.630 --> 00:30:29.730 well. And then I developed my first online course 00:30:29.730 --> 00:30:33.190 and because it was global, I wrote my book. Um, 00:30:33.309 --> 00:30:35.670 and I published, the book was published in 2013, 00:30:35.710 --> 00:30:39.470 the perfume book and It gave me a bit more of 00:30:39.470 --> 00:30:41.630 a global audience who couldn't come maybe to 00:30:41.630 --> 00:30:45.130 the UK to a one -day class. And so that was when 00:30:45.130 --> 00:30:48.029 I launched my first online course. And at the 00:30:48.029 --> 00:30:50.329 time, people said to me, well, how can you learn 00:30:50.329 --> 00:30:54.349 perfume making online? That's impossible. And 00:30:54.349 --> 00:30:59.950 we managed it. And I had people join and dive 00:30:59.950 --> 00:31:02.990 into it. And many of them have got their own 00:31:02.990 --> 00:31:07.240 brands now. And yeah, I think it... people were 00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:10.519 still of that view that you have to be physically 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:13.900 in the room with someone helping you to learn 00:31:13.900 --> 00:31:17.339 how to make perfume. And that is so, so not true. 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:20.099 Yeah, of course, if you have no accountability, 00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:22.500 you're not going to do the work, then of course 00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:25.339 it's harder. And actually having someone else 00:31:25.339 --> 00:31:28.079 outside of you to evaluate what you create, again, 00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:32.089 that is really invaluable. But if you put the 00:31:32.089 --> 00:31:34.029 work in and you've got and you're dedicated, 00:31:34.369 --> 00:31:37.089 there is no reason why you can't do it with some 00:31:37.089 --> 00:31:39.970 help and advice and the knowledge, you know, 00:31:40.049 --> 00:31:42.230 that we all provide. There are so many of us 00:31:42.230 --> 00:31:46.390 now teaching people perfumery and outside of 00:31:46.390 --> 00:31:48.450 the industry. And I think there's so much more 00:31:48.450 --> 00:31:51.450 available now that it is possible if you are 00:31:51.450 --> 00:31:53.509 an artisan and you want to do this for yourself. 00:31:53.690 --> 00:31:59.190 It's a bit like you're the As an Indian artisan, 00:31:59.630 --> 00:32:04.710 you're the person making the handmade couture 00:32:04.710 --> 00:32:08.690 garment. And the commercial industry is kind 00:32:08.690 --> 00:32:13.789 of like the Primark. And they're very different. 00:32:13.890 --> 00:32:17.670 You wouldn't say, well, there's no room for a 00:32:17.670 --> 00:32:23.089 handmade dress because we've got Primark. You 00:32:23.089 --> 00:32:25.640 just wouldn't compare them. Courses for courses, 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.160 isn't it? Yeah. But people, I think people do 00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:31.720 get caught up with the fact that, well, there's 00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:33.940 no room in the industry. It's already over saturated. 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.480 And I do agree. There's, it's a massively saturated 00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:42.539 market now, especially with small Indies artisans, 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.259 you know, people launching brands all the time 00:32:45.259 --> 00:32:48.140 and commercial launches, thousands of commercial 00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:52.579 launches every year now. And it's very easy to 00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:55.549 think, well, there's no more room in the market. 00:32:56.190 --> 00:32:58.710 And I think there's no more room in the market 00:32:58.710 --> 00:33:01.869 for more crappy fragrances, but I do think that 00:33:01.869 --> 00:33:05.289 there's room for something with a really strong 00:33:05.289 --> 00:33:09.430 story, whether that is the fragrance story, the 00:33:09.430 --> 00:33:14.690 brand story, the founder story even, and something 00:33:14.690 --> 00:33:19.029 that is really tapping into an emotion or a feeling 00:33:19.029 --> 00:33:22.839 that someone connects with. Definitely, because 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:25.220 the opportunities are endless, really, aren't 00:33:25.220 --> 00:33:27.680 they, for that unique storytelling where you're 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.079 really saying something different. I mean, like 00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:34.859 I said, the world of our scent and our sense 00:33:34.859 --> 00:33:37.700 of smell is just so vast and fascinating. And 00:33:37.700 --> 00:33:39.240 I think we're just at the tip of the iceberg 00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:41.599 when talking about it. And we're definitely in 00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:44.380 a commercial sense. We're nearly at the end of 00:33:44.380 --> 00:33:46.579 our time, and I could honestly chat about this. 00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:49.700 you know, all day. But one thing I really wanted 00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:54.000 to ask you is how important is fragrance when 00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.140 it comes to brand development? Because I really 00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:59.019 liked what you said earlier about how scent can 00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:01.299 really influence a consumer's perception of a 00:34:01.299 --> 00:34:03.099 product. If we say this is nourishing and it 00:34:03.099 --> 00:34:05.819 has a certain scent, it makes them more inclined 00:34:05.819 --> 00:34:07.619 to believe that it is nourishing. I mean, I'd 00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:11.059 love to hear more about how fragrance can influence 00:34:11.059 --> 00:34:14.579 the development of a brand. It's huge. I mean, 00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:19.409 my background. both as an evaluator back in the 00:34:19.409 --> 00:34:22.469 day at IFF and when I worked in product development 00:34:22.469 --> 00:34:28.650 at Neil's Yard after that was all about the customer 00:34:28.650 --> 00:34:32.210 journey. So whether you're developing a fragrance 00:34:32.210 --> 00:34:35.969 for a brand who are putting together the base 00:34:35.969 --> 00:34:37.889 product, whether it's the lotion, the shampoo, 00:34:38.170 --> 00:34:41.110 the whatever, or you're developing the full product, 00:34:41.429 --> 00:34:45.039 you really, really have to ask yourself, what 00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:49.059 is it that I want this customer, this user, this 00:34:49.059 --> 00:34:52.960 end user to feel and experience when they use 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:58.320 my product? And it's not about functional ingredients. 00:34:59.659 --> 00:35:02.820 I mean, it depends what you're making. Functional 00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:06.900 ingredients obviously are important. And if you 00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:09.880 are making claims about a particular ingredient 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:12.219 on a skincare product, you know, obviously it's 00:35:12.219 --> 00:35:15.139 got to be in there, but I think people underestimate 00:35:15.139 --> 00:35:19.340 the psychological power of how something smells. 00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:28.739 And even if you've got a product that is very, 00:35:28.739 --> 00:35:32.000 very functional, people still want a sensory 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.820 experience with it. And at the very least, it 00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:41.989 can't smell horrible. So It's got to be pleasing 00:35:41.989 --> 00:35:45.550 to use. It's got to be an enjoyable experience, 00:35:45.789 --> 00:35:48.710 whether it's you washing your dishes or whether 00:35:48.710 --> 00:35:51.849 you're washing your hair or whether you're putting 00:35:51.849 --> 00:35:54.369 cream on your feet. You know, it's still got 00:35:54.369 --> 00:35:58.309 to make sense in the product. And this is something 00:35:58.309 --> 00:36:01.090 that I teach in all of my programs, actually, 00:36:01.469 --> 00:36:05.230 that you've got to start thinking about it as 00:36:05.230 --> 00:36:09.719 a supporting It's a fundamental supporting role 00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:13.900 in how that product is going to be sold and performed. 00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:18.039 Because we, as human beings, we are always looking 00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:20.460 for clues all over the place about whether we've 00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:22.639 made the right choice when we're buying something. 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.659 And so I think if you're creating a fragrance, 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.599 like, you know, an alcohol based skin perfume 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:32.679 that's a fragrance for fragrance sake. I think 00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:35.559 that's, that's one thing that's a different beast. 00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:37.800 If you like, there's got to be the sort of this, 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.480 the aspirational, the story, the feeling, you 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:43.239 know, all of that. Um, that's a bit more abstract, 00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:46.179 but if you're creating fragrances for an, uh, 00:36:46.179 --> 00:36:49.219 different product type, whether that is a re 00:36:49.219 --> 00:36:52.420 diffuser or a shampoo or a body product, you 00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:55.539 really, really have to make sure that what you 00:36:55.539 --> 00:36:59.239 are saying to the customer. about what your product 00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:03.219 is going to do, has a supporting fragrance with 00:37:03.219 --> 00:37:06.099 it that also says that same thing to the customer. 00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.599 Because if there's a disconnect, it doesn't matter 00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:11.960 how good the ingredients in your product are 00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:15.440 or how well that product actually physically 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.860 performs, the customer is going to be choosing 00:37:18.860 --> 00:37:22.380 it from a range of other products on a shelf, 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.260 primarily by whether they believe what you say 00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:32.940 on the packaging, and the smell. That's their 00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:36.280 first touch point. And so we've all done it, 00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:38.980 right? We've all kind of gone to a supermarket 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:42.480 or a, you know, boots and we all flip the cap 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:44.420 and have a sniff, don't we? If it's not sealed 00:37:44.420 --> 00:37:49.119 up, like we don't not do that because, and I 00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:51.539 don't know what we think we're going to achieve, 00:37:51.579 --> 00:37:54.940 but it's something that maybe it goes back to 00:37:54.940 --> 00:37:58.550 that primitive you know, sniffing something to 00:37:58.550 --> 00:38:02.050 make sure it's not off or poisonous. Yeah. I 00:38:02.050 --> 00:38:05.690 think it's a primitive thing. Definitely. Um, 00:38:05.730 --> 00:38:07.329 cause so you're saying that scent is kind of 00:38:07.329 --> 00:38:10.269 like a sales person for this product. Yeah, absolutely. 00:38:10.269 --> 00:38:13.710 It has to be because if it's fragrance free and 00:38:13.710 --> 00:38:17.630 you've got some of these amazing base oils that 00:38:17.630 --> 00:38:20.030 have got all of these enriching, you know, gorgeous 00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:23.289 properties, but they smell rancid. It doesn't 00:38:23.289 --> 00:38:25.690 matter how good that product actually physically 00:38:25.690 --> 00:38:28.949 is. People are really going to be repelled by 00:38:28.949 --> 00:38:33.269 it. And so you need extra work in the scent there 00:38:33.269 --> 00:38:36.969 to entice the person to buy it so that they can 00:38:36.969 --> 00:38:40.409 actually use it and get the benefit. So yeah, 00:38:40.530 --> 00:38:43.670 it is exactly that. It's a salesperson for your 00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:46.190 product. Well, Karen, like I say, I could chat 00:38:46.190 --> 00:38:48.170 about all this stuff with you all day, but thank 00:38:48.170 --> 00:38:50.070 you so much for joining me. I really appreciate 00:38:50.070 --> 00:38:52.590 it. And it was so lovely having you on the podcast. 00:38:52.889 --> 00:39:08.159 You're very welcome. Hello and welcome to the 00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:11.500 Smart Beauty Podcast. I'm your host, Viola Levy, 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.360 beauty journalist and founder of copy led branding 00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:17.659 agency, Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to 00:39:17.659 --> 00:39:20.119 create your brand voice and craft the story behind 00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:20.480 it.