WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.259 Dear wonderful listeners, if you're looking to 00:00:02.259 --> 00:00:04.139 define your brand's core message but aren't sure 00:00:04.139 --> 00:00:06.599 where to start, that's where Smart Beauty can 00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:09.240 help. We're offering a 90 -minute deep dive into 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:11.640 your brand to give you clear action points on 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:13.720 your messaging and strategy to help you grow 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.460 and scale, so that you can get noticed by customers, 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:19.399 retailers and investors and start to see sales 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:22.140 soar. And the cost of this deep dive is redeemable 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:24.480 against any larger project you work with us on, 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:26.760 so you get all of that insight and value with 00:00:26.760 --> 00:00:29.079 minimal risk. We're looking for a few new clients 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.739 who are ready to see amazing results. Just email 00:00:31.739 --> 00:00:34.420 hello at smartbeautycreative .com to find out 00:00:34.420 --> 00:00:50.079 more. Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty Podcast. 00:00:50.509 --> 00:00:53.509 I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist 00:00:53.509 --> 00:00:56.429 and founder of copy led branding agency, Smart 00:00:56.429 --> 00:00:59.170 Beauty Creative. We're here to create your brand 00:00:59.170 --> 00:01:06.510 voice and craft the story behind it. Today, I'm 00:01:06.510 --> 00:01:08.469 thrilled to be joined by Louise Whitbread, a 00:01:08.469 --> 00:01:10.370 respected beauty journalist who has taken her 00:01:10.370 --> 00:01:13.269 expertise to the next level by completing a certification 00:01:13.269 --> 00:01:15.879 in cosmetic science. Louise and I have crossed 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:17.760 paths numerous times in the beauty journalism 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.159 world over the years and I've always admired 00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:22.079 her commitment to evidence -based reporting. 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:25.280 What sets Louise apart is her dedication to understanding 00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:27.799 beauty at a deeper level. She's not just reporting 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:30.040 on products but truly comprehending how they're 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:32.319 formulated, why they work, and when marketing 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:34.939 claims don't match reality. she's written for 00:01:34.939 --> 00:01:37.640 the likes of the independent, stylist and vogue 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:40.219 business. In today's conversation we'll explore 00:01:40.219 --> 00:01:42.739 what inspired Louise to pursue formal education 00:01:42.739 --> 00:01:45.739 in cosmetic science, discuss the rampant misinformation 00:01:45.739 --> 00:01:48.859 in beauty marketing, examine sustainability challenges 00:01:48.859 --> 00:01:51.719 facing the industry and get her insights on exciting 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:54.640 innovations and underserved markets. So if you're 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:56.680 tired of beauty buzzwords and want the real science 00:01:56.680 --> 00:01:59.000 behind your skincare, makeup and hair care, you're 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:02.510 in for a treat. Let's dive in. So hi Louise, 00:02:02.590 --> 00:02:05.650 lovely to get you on the podcast and obviously 00:02:05.650 --> 00:02:08.009 like we've worked together for I think a few 00:02:08.009 --> 00:02:10.830 years now. So yeah, I just really admire the 00:02:10.830 --> 00:02:13.370 fact that you've completed your Cosmetic Science 00:02:13.370 --> 00:02:15.569 Certification. Can't get my words out this morning. 00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:20.250 So what inspired you to look into formulations 00:02:20.250 --> 00:02:23.430 at such a deep level and aspects of product development 00:02:23.430 --> 00:02:25.949 alongside your journalism career? Like how did 00:02:25.949 --> 00:02:28.340 all that start? Thank you, Viola. It was actually 00:02:28.340 --> 00:02:30.879 a friend of mine called Lisa Payne, who is the 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:33.219 head of beauty over at Stylers, who first told 00:02:33.219 --> 00:02:36.080 me back at the end of 2023 about this new course 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:38.620 at the Society of Cosmetic Scientists for offering. 00:02:39.139 --> 00:02:40.860 And it's an introduction to cosmetic science 00:02:40.860 --> 00:02:43.639 course. And it's created by industry experts, 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:47.099 cosmetic scientists, formulators, a few journalists 00:02:47.099 --> 00:02:49.080 as well. And it's for people that don't have 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.460 a chemistry degree but want to have a better 00:02:51.460 --> 00:02:54.360 understanding of cosmetic science. I thought 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:58.490 it would be really useful to get a better understanding 00:02:58.490 --> 00:03:01.270 into cosmetic ingredients in products, especially 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:03.789 given that I write about formulas all the time. 00:03:03.930 --> 00:03:06.469 I do a lot of product testing. Product reviews 00:03:06.469 --> 00:03:08.530 are a really key part of what my work involves, 00:03:08.889 --> 00:03:11.129 along with my trend forecasting work. And I wanted 00:03:11.129 --> 00:03:14.669 to get a much better understanding of how ingredients 00:03:14.669 --> 00:03:17.150 work, why they work, why products are packaged 00:03:17.150 --> 00:03:20.689 the way they are, how brands are trying to align 00:03:20.689 --> 00:03:22.610 their product formulations that are both innovative, 00:03:22.689 --> 00:03:25.949 but also solve consumer problems. me changing 00:03:25.949 --> 00:03:27.689 consumer needs. And I thought it would just make 00:03:27.689 --> 00:03:30.909 me a better reporter, more analytical. And when 00:03:30.909 --> 00:03:33.210 I'm attending these brand launches, or I'm trying 00:03:33.210 --> 00:03:35.969 out a product for the first time, I have a much 00:03:35.969 --> 00:03:38.270 better sort of base knowledge to go from to be 00:03:38.270 --> 00:03:40.669 able to say that that's why that works, or this 00:03:40.669 --> 00:03:42.909 ingredient is great because of this, this isn't 00:03:42.909 --> 00:03:44.650 going to work if you have this type of skin, 00:03:44.650 --> 00:03:46.870 etc. So I just thought it could be much more 00:03:46.870 --> 00:03:49.530 sort of all rounder background when I'm approaching 00:03:49.530 --> 00:03:51.819 my work. No, it's incredible. And I think it's 00:03:51.819 --> 00:03:53.979 it shows a great sort of sense of responsibility 00:03:53.979 --> 00:03:56.479 that you have to your readers that, yeah, like 00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:58.259 I said, as a journalist myself, we sent all this 00:03:58.259 --> 00:03:59.960 stuff and we sort of sent press releases and 00:03:59.960 --> 00:04:02.939 it's trying to kind of wade through the marketing 00:04:02.939 --> 00:04:06.719 stories and get to the actual facts of the situation. 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:10.139 So do you feel like sort of more journalists 00:04:10.139 --> 00:04:12.199 should sort of maybe follow suit where that's 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.460 concerned? Because there is kind of a lot of 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:17.069 misinformation out there. And it can be hard 00:04:17.069 --> 00:04:21.230 to kind of work out what is sort of myth versus 00:04:21.230 --> 00:04:23.870 fact. Yeah, absolutely. And I do think going 00:04:23.870 --> 00:04:25.889 back to what you said about responsibility, I 00:04:25.889 --> 00:04:29.689 do think influencers and journalists, journalists 00:04:29.689 --> 00:04:32.709 more so, but I do think there sometimes it's 00:04:32.709 --> 00:04:35.370 easy to get caught up in all these lovely new 00:04:35.370 --> 00:04:37.709 launches. And there's a great perks of the job. 00:04:38.410 --> 00:04:40.430 Like I'll often try out treatments, which is 00:04:40.430 --> 00:04:43.120 lovely. And it is part of my job of testing that 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:44.879 product. I can't write about a product I haven't 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:47.319 tried, but it is my responsibility as a journalist 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.199 to communicate clearly to customers and beauty 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:53.680 consumers in an unbiased way and not be aligned 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.060 with brands just because I like them or I've 00:04:56.060 --> 00:04:58.779 been gifted product. Help them decipher what 00:04:58.779 --> 00:05:03.180 is a very saturated market. And I think the course 00:05:03.180 --> 00:05:05.480 that the Society of Cosmetic Scientists offer, 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:07.740 and they offer multiple courses of different 00:05:07.740 --> 00:05:11.300 sort of levels and abilities. And I think If 00:05:11.300 --> 00:05:13.560 you can do it, I would really recommend it. It's 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.740 app -based. You can do it all from home. You 00:05:15.740 --> 00:05:17.879 can do it from your phone if you want to. It's 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.279 a great one to fit into freelance life like mine 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.600 if you're in -house. But I do think one thing 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:27.079 that has been really helpful is when I now go 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:29.220 to launches and I'm looking at ingredients and 00:05:29.220 --> 00:05:31.860 things, I am able to call out the bullshit from 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:33.980 beauty brands. Excuse my language. There is so 00:05:33.980 --> 00:05:36.620 much of it and you are bombarded by brands saying, 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:38.920 our product is the best. This ingredient is the 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:41.870 best. And yeah, I can better decipher like, yes, 00:05:41.889 --> 00:05:44.529 that is, or actually, there's no actual scientific 00:05:44.529 --> 00:05:46.889 evidence or clinical evidence proving what you're 00:05:46.889 --> 00:05:49.189 saying. And it's all very well and good to say, 00:05:49.370 --> 00:05:53.029 our 100 pound moisturizer is amazing. But do 00:05:53.029 --> 00:05:55.170 you need it? Does it actually follow through 00:05:55.170 --> 00:05:57.089 on what it's saying? Does it follow through on 00:05:57.089 --> 00:05:59.230 its performance claims? Or is it just like clever 00:05:59.230 --> 00:06:02.250 marketing? And I think between the two and finding 00:06:02.250 --> 00:06:04.810 sort of the line in the middle of what's true. 00:06:05.230 --> 00:06:07.370 is a really important job as a journalist so 00:06:07.370 --> 00:06:09.230 I would highly recommend it to other journalists 00:06:09.230 --> 00:06:12.230 and I think it's a great way to sort of improve 00:06:12.230 --> 00:06:13.910 your knowledge because the industry is always 00:06:13.910 --> 00:06:17.230 changing and I think your skill set and your 00:06:17.230 --> 00:06:20.680 knowledge should also evolve with it. 100%. And 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.600 it's kind of what we're trying to do here at 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:24.540 Smart Beauty is getting rid of, as you say, the 00:06:24.540 --> 00:06:29.040 bullshit behind beauty marketing. So I feel like 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:31.459 the world of formulations, it's kind of there's 00:06:31.459 --> 00:06:33.420 a lot of gatekeeping and it's kind of this, there's 00:06:33.420 --> 00:06:35.600 a lot of smoke and mirrors isn't there? Do you 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:38.180 think it's very useful for like on entrepreneurs 00:06:38.180 --> 00:06:40.120 to kind of take courses like this even if you 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:43.399 might not have a scientific background do you 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:44.860 think it's good for brand founders because a 00:06:44.860 --> 00:06:47.399 lot of the time they have a formulator and they 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:49.279 kind of defer to them and it feels like there's 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:51.360 a bit of a disconnect there like these are your 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:53.680 product this is your range you should know exactly 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:56.300 what is going into them into these products and 00:06:56.300 --> 00:06:59.649 how everything works Absolutely. And part of 00:06:59.649 --> 00:07:02.370 the, on the Society of Cosmetic Science website, 00:07:02.529 --> 00:07:04.509 when I was looking into this course, they list 00:07:04.509 --> 00:07:06.550 people that would be suitable for doing the course. 00:07:06.750 --> 00:07:08.389 And like I said, it's for people without a chemistry 00:07:08.389 --> 00:07:10.449 degree, but they said brand founders could benefit 00:07:10.449 --> 00:07:12.730 from this. Journalists, people that are just 00:07:12.730 --> 00:07:14.870 beauty enthusiasts can access it. But I think 00:07:14.870 --> 00:07:17.949 as a brand founder, if you don't have formal 00:07:17.949 --> 00:07:20.089 cosmetic science training or a background in 00:07:20.089 --> 00:07:23.360 cosmetic science, tools like this are a fantastic 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:25.939 way to be more educated and then be able to better 00:07:25.939 --> 00:07:30.399 communicate to a consumer. I think If you are 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:32.639 founding a brand, you should know absolutely 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:34.519 as much as possible about that brand. You don't 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:36.920 need to be a cosmetic scientist to launch a brand, 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:39.220 but you should be able to tell a journalist like 00:07:39.220 --> 00:07:42.459 me or you about what's in the formula, why you've 00:07:42.459 --> 00:07:44.639 decided to use the ingredients you have, why 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:46.680 you can justify the price point, what decisions 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:48.660 have you made about the packaging, what markets 00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:51.120 you want to sell in. For example, the regulatory 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.199 framework for the UK is different to Japan, which 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:56.639 is different to the US. If you're planning to 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.259 expand in those areas, you can't just have a 00:07:58.259 --> 00:08:00.339 nice market marketing campaign with great imagery, 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.040 great TikTok content, you need to have an understanding 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:06.120 of what consumer need are we meeting? How is, 00:08:06.339 --> 00:08:09.040 what is this useful for if there's already a 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.560 sea of products that, essentially there is something 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:13.579 for everyone out there, what makes you different. 00:08:13.779 --> 00:08:17.120 And I think having that credibility to be able 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:19.100 to talk about your products and your brand in 00:08:19.100 --> 00:08:21.220 a way that's thorough, that shows you're educated 00:08:21.220 --> 00:08:24.019 and informed is only going to strengthen your 00:08:24.019 --> 00:08:27.250 brand. always referring to your cosmetic scientists 00:08:27.250 --> 00:08:29.069 or your product formulators, I think can be a 00:08:29.069 --> 00:08:30.970 bit of a weakness. You should be, as a team, 00:08:31.089 --> 00:08:33.570 you should be working together. I know that no 00:08:33.570 --> 00:08:35.870 one is expecting sort of the CEO of a company 00:08:35.870 --> 00:08:38.049 to have the same amount of knowledge as say the 00:08:38.049 --> 00:08:40.590 scientists in the lab creating the product, but 00:08:40.590 --> 00:08:42.309 you should know that. And that also comes into 00:08:42.309 --> 00:08:44.330 sort of, do you know where you're sourcing your 00:08:44.330 --> 00:08:47.210 ingredients from? Yeah. You're sustainable or 00:08:47.210 --> 00:08:49.610 trying to be a sustainable brand. Can you explain 00:08:49.610 --> 00:08:52.509 to people, industry insiders and your consumers 00:08:52.509 --> 00:08:55.669 and potential consumers? How sustainable is your 00:08:55.669 --> 00:08:57.809 product? How, where are you getting your ingredients 00:08:57.809 --> 00:09:00.389 from? If they're lab based, how are they more 00:09:00.389 --> 00:09:02.690 effective than what's derived from say plants, 00:09:02.710 --> 00:09:05.909 for example, and how are you understanding the 00:09:05.909 --> 00:09:08.330 changing beauty market to appeal to consumer 00:09:08.330 --> 00:09:10.570 needs? So I think I would really recommend it 00:09:10.570 --> 00:09:12.850 to a brand founder if they don't have that formal 00:09:12.850 --> 00:09:15.299 training already. Definitely. And I think, like 00:09:15.299 --> 00:09:17.440 you say, sustainability kind of feeds into it. 00:09:17.460 --> 00:09:21.019 And I think the lack of knowledge kind of contributes 00:09:21.019 --> 00:09:23.879 to this kind of binary approach, like natural 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:26.200 is good, synthetic is bad, when actually the 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.500 reality is a lot different. I mean, I love, you 00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:30.200 know, I love a natural beauty range, but I love 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.600 some cool technology as well. So you think that 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.690 sort of these kinds of, you know, the more that 00:09:36.690 --> 00:09:38.870 this kind of information is available, the more 00:09:38.870 --> 00:09:41.570 that the conversation will be sort of less black 00:09:41.570 --> 00:09:43.309 and white, and there'll be less kind of, you 00:09:43.309 --> 00:09:45.370 know, scaremongering, basically, when it comes 00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:48.730 to sustainability, like brands can tell a more 00:09:48.730 --> 00:09:52.129 authentic story, and people can buy into it as 00:09:52.129 --> 00:09:55.350 a result. Yeah, absolutely. And I think with 00:09:55.350 --> 00:09:57.149 the sustainability thing you're saying about 00:09:57.149 --> 00:09:59.370 the sort of natural clean beauty movement, things 00:09:59.370 --> 00:10:02.389 like the clean beauty movement is often propelled 00:10:02.389 --> 00:10:06.460 by brands themselves. And a lot of it When from 00:10:06.460 --> 00:10:08.679 doing this course and before for my own research 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:11.440 and my years of reporting Sometimes I see brands 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:14.019 marketing and their language and the copy they 00:10:14.019 --> 00:10:16.679 use is not correct. It's scientifically It's 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:19.000 not correct and they might be saying things like 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:21.480 all natural is better But there's no evidence 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:23.559 of that. And then you have things like the clean 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:25.240 beauty movement where there's an implication 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:27.340 that other brands that aren't considered clean 00:10:27.340 --> 00:10:31.519 are dirty, which also does a disservice to how 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:34.139 strict it is to bring a product to market and 00:10:34.139 --> 00:10:37.360 it be allowed to be sold on shop shelves. That 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.200 is not a week or short journey. There are so 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.960 many tests we have to go through. There are so 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.519 many things cosmetic scientists and product developers 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:49.940 and packaging and all of that. have to be taken 00:10:49.940 --> 00:10:52.200 into consideration. It's months if not years. 00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:54.179 It's why you often hear brands say this took 00:10:54.179 --> 00:10:56.419 us four or five years to formulate to get the 00:10:56.419 --> 00:10:58.980 right wine. And that's not just to say we wanted 00:10:58.980 --> 00:11:01.480 to get the perfect consistency, texture, finish. 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:04.460 We wanted the best consumer trial results. That's 00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:07.259 an important part of it. But also because what 00:11:07.259 --> 00:11:09.080 you can sell in the UK is different to what you 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.539 can sell in the US. It's the same with like Korea 00:11:11.539 --> 00:11:15.299 and Japan. With Korea, for example, we know there's 00:11:15.299 --> 00:11:18.059 lots of lovely, sophisticated, beautiful SBF 00:11:18.059 --> 00:11:20.039 formulas that aren't allowed to be sold in the 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:23.740 US. So US consumers don't have that access, but 00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:26.559 the FDA in the US play an important role in making 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.820 sure like what they feel is best for their market 00:11:28.820 --> 00:11:33.659 and their region. So I think it's very easy for 00:11:33.659 --> 00:11:35.559 brands if they're not educated enough. And I 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:37.279 think founders have a lot of responsibility to 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.679 be educated that you could end up being part 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.919 of that misinformation sort of cycle. And you 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.500 don't want to be associated as a brand that doesn't 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:48.779 actually know what you're talking about as we 00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:51.940 know science develops. And I think if you're 00:11:51.940 --> 00:11:53.820 a brand, you shouldn't attach yourself too closely 00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:56.220 to things like that unless you have the ability 00:11:56.220 --> 00:11:58.100 to back it up and explain yourself thoroughly 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:02.580 and work within the beauty industry to be consistent, 00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:05.360 to be thorough, to be meeting all these sort 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:08.019 of expectations of consumer needs, but also behind 00:12:08.019 --> 00:12:10.379 the scenes of formulating needs and the requirements 00:12:10.379 --> 00:12:13.840 that are needed in the market. Definitely. And 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:15.980 I think this, you know, there's a lot of demonizing 00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:17.940 of certain ingredients. So sort of silicons, 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:20.059 for example, but not all silicons are the same. 00:12:20.220 --> 00:12:22.779 So yeah, you can get some quote unquote bad silicons 00:12:22.779 --> 00:12:26.460 that might sort of have all these kind of qualities 00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:27.919 that people are attributing to them, but then 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:31.769 you get sort of good kinds of silicons that don't 00:12:31.769 --> 00:12:33.690 weigh down the hair and things like that and 00:12:33.690 --> 00:12:37.710 suffocate your skin. So I feel like, yeah, that 00:12:37.710 --> 00:12:40.730 people assume that ingredients, there's only 00:12:40.730 --> 00:12:44.250 kind of one, you know, it's one size fits all 00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:47.470 approach, which I think is, yeah, really damaging, 00:12:47.750 --> 00:12:50.389 I think. And it also kind of, it pressures people 00:12:50.389 --> 00:12:52.590 to spend money that they don't have, which I 00:12:52.590 --> 00:12:55.009 think there's an ethical reason as well. Like, 00:12:55.070 --> 00:12:58.059 you know, you can buy a drugstore shampoo that 00:12:58.059 --> 00:13:00.200 might have silicons in it, or conditioner that 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:02.200 might have silicons in it, it's not going to 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:05.139 wreck your hair necessarily, as the way that 00:13:05.139 --> 00:13:07.480 these kind of more premium brands are making 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.220 out. So I feel like there's kind of that dishonesty 00:13:09.220 --> 00:13:11.840 element. And then also I was going to say parabens, 00:13:11.860 --> 00:13:14.700 obviously, there's loads of conversations happening 00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:17.240 around around that. But what these brands fail 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:19.419 to mention is that preservatives like parabens 00:13:19.419 --> 00:13:21.299 are just so crucial. Otherwise, the product would 00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:23.860 go mouldy, which is even worse than, you know, 00:13:25.580 --> 00:13:28.279 through in the 40s when we discovered them and 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:30.940 found a way to use them. And it's such an important 00:13:30.940 --> 00:13:34.259 role in preventing mould growing on your moisturiser. 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.139 If you think of a tub of moisturiser, you're 00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:39.039 opening it, you're exposing it to the air, and 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.240 then you are putting your fingers in and out 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:45.039 of it. And I think The business of fashion a 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:47.019 few years ago did a really great article on how 00:13:47.019 --> 00:13:49.200 beauty has a mold problem. And it looked at brands 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.899 like COSA and things like that, where consumers 00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:55.159 were documenting on TikTok and Instagram, how 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.340 they were seeing mold in their products. And 00:13:58.340 --> 00:14:00.399 a lot of that was because they're these clean 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.159 beauty brands that don't use preservatives and 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.200 demonize them, like you say. But actually, if 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.320 you're not using sort of traditional preservatives, 00:14:08.460 --> 00:14:10.679 what are you doing to preserve the product? because 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:12.019 that's really important, too. And that affects 00:14:12.019 --> 00:14:14.600 the shelf life of your product. It affects the 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:16.840 color of your product. It affects how long you 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:21.519 can use it for. And I think the word toxic is 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:23.940 also thrown about far too much. I think it's 00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:27.679 used to say about the smallest things are toxic 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:30.539 or carcinogenic or things like that. And you 00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:33.659 see a lot in the supplement side of things about 00:14:33.659 --> 00:14:35.600 how certain supplements will flush out the toxins 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.639 in your body. And I think that's literally the 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.320 function of the kidneys. your body is designed 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:45.080 to flush out actual toxins, your foundation or 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.120 your moisturizer is not going to be toxic. It 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:51.019 has so many strict rules before it can be allowed 00:14:51.019 --> 00:14:53.320 onto shop shelves to ensure that they're safe 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:55.940 for consumers. And I think it's almost insulting 00:14:55.940 --> 00:14:58.460 if you're a brand to say, we don't use these 00:14:58.460 --> 00:15:00.379 ingredients because they're toxic. And I think 00:15:00.379 --> 00:15:04.139 often when we talk about toxicity, you very rarely 00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:06.320 hear it referred to as dosage, which go hand 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:10.610 in hand. So your foundation is not safe. If you 00:15:10.610 --> 00:15:12.789 drank your foundation and you drank the whole 00:15:12.789 --> 00:15:15.269 30ml bottle, it might be very well because it's 00:15:15.269 --> 00:15:16.950 not an ingestible product, but that doesn't mean 00:15:16.950 --> 00:15:21.710 it's not safe to put on your skin. Yeah, I mean, 00:15:21.850 --> 00:15:23.409 water can be toxic if you drink too much of it, 00:15:23.450 --> 00:15:26.549 you can kill yourself. So, you know, there's 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.559 there's a lot to be said for um yeah just having 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.440 some kind of restraint when when when sort of 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:34.879 making these claims because like you say some 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:37.919 of them are just so um outlandish i mean what 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.840 are some of the biggest kind of um misconceptions 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:42.919 you've come across when it comes to kind of clean 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:45.820 beauty and natural ingredients now that you've 00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:49.919 got that sort of um like knowledge and you've 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:51.759 sort of done those those sort of in -depth studies 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:55.539 into the way products are formulated i do think 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:59.399 Clean beauty has a lot to answer for in how it 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:01.440 has peddled misinformation in the industry. And 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.960 I think, really, when we look at it, when brands 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.879 refer to themselves as clean, they're implying 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:09.600 that other brands that aren't as clean as them 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.960 are dirty. And it goes back to that, you can't 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.580 just put any product on the shelves and sell 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:17.580 it to a customer. There are so many things that 00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:20.259 go into making a product or formulating. part 00:16:20.259 --> 00:16:22.340 of the problem is that it's very difficult as 00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:24.519 a brand to communicate that to consumers because 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:26.600 you don't have that much time to grab a consumer's 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.120 attention. You might have a few seconds on a 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:30.799 TikTok, you might have a minute on an Instagram 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.000 and that's not enough to go through all the steps 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:34.820 you as a brand are taking to formulate products 00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:37.759 that are safe but also how the industry works 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.480 and how You can't have just unsafe products. 00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:42.779 It's why you don't see sort of, you only ever 00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:45.620 see things like handmade soaps and sort of handmade 00:16:45.620 --> 00:16:47.419 lip balms, things like that are like market stalls 00:16:47.419 --> 00:16:48.779 and things. You're not seeing them on the shelves 00:16:48.779 --> 00:16:51.539 at Boots because they're not been tested. You 00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:53.399 can even, you could make a lovely soap in your 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.799 kitchen sink, but that doesn't mean it's a great 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:59.360 product. And I think one of the big misconceptions 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.279 is that clean or natural equals product efficacy. 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:05.660 And it doesn't, it doesn't speak to brands performance, 00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:08.900 a product's performance. And I think One of the 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:10.640 bigger problems with marketing claims and a lot 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.240 of work that you've been doing with Smart Beauty 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.920 is the language that we use with consumers. Sometimes 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:18.660 that's the only, that's the first introduction 00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:21.059 or the entryway for consumers to your brand. 00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:24.039 And if that is not up to scratch, if that is 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:27.420 not clear and accurate, it can still be fun and 00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:30.059 interesting and engaging. But if you are not 00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:33.259 coming at it with a great basis in fact, you 00:17:33.259 --> 00:17:35.079 could be misleading customers and then you're 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:36.839 encouraging them to use products they don't need 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.259 or you're suggesting that they need this product 00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:41.579 when in fact not every product is for everyone, 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:44.019 not every product should be for everyone. There's 00:17:44.019 --> 00:17:45.720 a reason we have like different needs for our 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.140 skin and why an oily skin might not react well 00:17:48.140 --> 00:17:51.039 to shea butter in the way that a dry skin could. 00:17:51.740 --> 00:17:54.039 No, for sure. I mean, I don't know if you, this 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:55.359 is a bit of an extreme example, but I don't know 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:57.299 if you saw the Netflix series Apple Cider Vinegar 00:17:57.299 --> 00:18:00.200 that's been on about the, this sort of bogus 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:02.579 wellness influencer, but it's made a point in 00:18:02.579 --> 00:18:05.299 general about how the kind of, how toxic this 00:18:05.299 --> 00:18:07.619 kind of wellness conversation has got that people 00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:10.319 were drinking juice instead of going to doctors 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:13.869 for their cancer and that. um one of the other 00:18:13.869 --> 00:18:16.109 influences she was genuine but unfortunately 00:18:16.109 --> 00:18:18.490 and it was based on a true story she sadly lost 00:18:18.490 --> 00:18:20.390 her life because she went on this juicing cleanse 00:18:20.390 --> 00:18:23.109 instead of getting the medical help that she 00:18:23.109 --> 00:18:25.670 needed um obviously that's a very extreme example 00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:28.470 to the beauty history but I feel like there's 00:18:28.470 --> 00:18:31.650 kind of um parallels that you can draw from that 00:18:31.650 --> 00:18:35.349 when talking about natural versus synthetic um 00:18:35.349 --> 00:18:37.390 and then there's the world of green chemistry 00:18:37.390 --> 00:18:39.349 that I think not enough people are paying attention 00:18:39.349 --> 00:18:42.490 to that you know science does have its place 00:18:42.490 --> 00:18:44.410 and lab -grown ingredients as long as they're 00:18:44.410 --> 00:18:48.450 safe and sustainable um you know should be totally 00:18:48.450 --> 00:18:52.130 be talked about and included in the conversation 00:18:52.130 --> 00:18:54.430 as opposed to just we just need to use essential 00:18:54.430 --> 00:18:57.630 oils and that's it that's kind of there's a lot 00:18:57.630 --> 00:19:00.589 of essential oils that are not good for you 100 00:19:00.589 --> 00:19:05.029 % yeah where if a product grows out the ground 00:19:05.029 --> 00:19:06.509 it's good for you because it's plant -deriving 00:19:06.509 --> 00:19:08.190 it's vegan and you're like well actually there's 00:19:08.190 --> 00:19:11.079 a lot more involved with that so like things 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.099 like if you ingest too much essential some essential 00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:17.200 oils can be really dangerous for you or you shouldn't 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.000 eat like I think isn't it correct that if you're 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:20.640 pregnant there are some essential oils? When 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.180 I was pregnant I actually had an aromatherapy 00:19:23.180 --> 00:19:24.619 client and I couldn't use any of the products 00:19:24.619 --> 00:19:27.960 because you know because it wasn't suitable for 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.509 me so so yes a hundred percent it's That's another 00:19:31.509 --> 00:19:34.049 example of how clever marketing copy has been 00:19:34.049 --> 00:19:36.589 used, paired with misinformation. Essential oils 00:19:36.589 --> 00:19:38.710 suggest that they're like, you need them, you 00:19:38.710 --> 00:19:40.410 only need them, you don't need anything else. 00:19:40.470 --> 00:19:42.450 But we also know that there are some amazing, 00:19:42.869 --> 00:19:44.670 good quality, high -performing ingredients like 00:19:44.670 --> 00:19:47.599 retinol. which has been very widely tested, very 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:49.960 widely studied, very widely agreed that it is 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.619 the gold standard of anti -aging. If you're looking 00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:55.400 for acne, help with acne scarring, retinol is 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:58.039 a great one. Vitamin C is fantastic at brightening, 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.859 but we also know vitamin C is a very volatile 00:20:00.859 --> 00:20:02.960 ingredient. You can't, not every vitamin C is 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.059 going to work for you. And there's so many different 00:20:05.059 --> 00:20:08.130 ways to create a formula using vitamin C. And 00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:10.829 I think it's confusing enough consumers to navigate 00:20:10.829 --> 00:20:13.069 an oversaturated market, but it's a real job 00:20:13.069 --> 00:20:15.589 responsibility of the brands to make sure what 00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:18.589 they're saying is not only solving a consumer 00:20:18.589 --> 00:20:22.549 problem, but is also accurate. And yes, I think 00:20:22.549 --> 00:20:25.109 I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. 00:20:25.650 --> 00:20:28.430 No, definitely. And isn't retinol like pretty 00:20:28.430 --> 00:20:31.490 much the only clinically proven ingredient when 00:20:31.490 --> 00:20:35.730 it comes to and for like improving the appearance 00:20:35.730 --> 00:20:38.410 of your skin and doing actually what it says 00:20:38.410 --> 00:20:40.829 as opposed to the more anecdotal evidence that 00:20:40.829 --> 00:20:42.930 surrounds other ingredients. Yeah, absolutely. 00:20:43.009 --> 00:20:45.190 And one of the biggest things with retinol is 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:48.329 it demonstrates how important education is from 00:20:48.329 --> 00:20:51.009 brands. You need to be educating customers on 00:20:51.009 --> 00:20:53.569 how to correctly use retinol, retinoldehyde, 00:20:53.690 --> 00:20:55.750 retinoic acid, whichever form you use it in. 00:20:56.029 --> 00:20:59.069 You cannot just go straight in and use the strongest 00:20:59.069 --> 00:21:01.329 version. You cannot, if you've never used retinol 00:21:01.329 --> 00:21:05.089 before, use it every day. We know there's going 00:21:05.089 --> 00:21:08.089 to be some minimal at best irritation. We know 00:21:08.089 --> 00:21:10.029 it makes you more susceptible to sun damage. 00:21:10.390 --> 00:21:11.990 So you need to make sure you're using sun cream. 00:21:12.529 --> 00:21:15.609 And I think brands need to be speaking to their 00:21:15.609 --> 00:21:17.730 consumers and potential consumers with that in 00:21:17.730 --> 00:21:19.529 mind that you need to educate your customers 00:21:19.529 --> 00:21:21.950 on your products. You cannot just say, this is 00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:23.650 great. This is amazing. This works for everyone. 00:21:24.089 --> 00:21:28.609 Please buy it. an outbreak of skin sense, like 00:21:28.609 --> 00:21:30.369 skin sensitivity, hasn't there? Because I think 00:21:30.369 --> 00:21:33.230 people are using so many abrasive treatments 00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:35.150 and not really understanding how to use them, 00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:39.130 like with the introduction of acid toners, for 00:21:39.130 --> 00:21:42.730 example, and these one, these ingredient led 00:21:42.730 --> 00:21:44.730 serums that you're designed to kind of mix and 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:48.259 match and be your own kind of a formulator in 00:21:48.259 --> 00:21:50.799 a way. And as a result, I think people are kind 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:52.940 of stripping away the skin barrier and now they're 00:21:52.940 --> 00:21:55.220 dealing with sensitivity. Do you think we're 00:21:55.220 --> 00:21:57.720 kind of moving away from that now and that more 00:21:57.720 --> 00:21:59.500 brands are sort of taking more responsibility? 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.160 I think so. And I think a few years ago, I remember 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:08.759 during the COVID pandemic and just before exfoliating 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.099 with acids was so aggressively pushed by brands 00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:13.220 and now those same brands are focused on skin 00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:16.329 barrier repairing products. counteract the damage 00:22:16.329 --> 00:22:19.369 done by over exfoliating. And I do think I definitely 00:22:19.369 --> 00:22:21.210 agree with what you said about brands, say like 00:22:21.210 --> 00:22:24.329 The Ordinary or The Inkey List, who very much 00:22:24.329 --> 00:22:27.690 rely on the ingredient names to form the product 00:22:27.690 --> 00:22:30.250 names. And I think that does encourage people 00:22:30.250 --> 00:22:34.170 to play chemists. Sometimes you can get into 00:22:34.170 --> 00:22:37.609 a lot of trouble there because people want to 00:22:37.609 --> 00:22:39.069 feel like they're getting the most out of their 00:22:39.069 --> 00:22:41.730 products. But they also, I think sometimes there's 00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:45.730 a fun element of mixing and matching. But if 00:22:45.730 --> 00:22:49.269 you don't have that basis of education as a consumer, 00:22:49.789 --> 00:22:51.450 which I don't think there should be, I don't 00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:52.730 think the honours should be on the consumer, 00:22:52.849 --> 00:22:54.210 I think it should be on the brands to educate 00:22:54.210 --> 00:22:57.609 rather than consumers themselves. And I think 00:22:57.609 --> 00:23:00.690 it's very easy to use products that can counteract 00:23:00.690 --> 00:23:02.589 each other. For example, like retinol and vitamin 00:23:02.589 --> 00:23:04.809 C, you shouldn't use that in the same routine. 00:23:05.009 --> 00:23:06.569 You should use retinol in the evening, vitamin 00:23:06.569 --> 00:23:10.619 C is much better off using in the morning. No, 00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:13.039 it makes complete sense. Vitamin C protects and 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.000 brightens retinol is a treatment which is great 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:18.279 for if it gives you any irritation that's much 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:19.799 safer to use in the evening because it's not 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:22.859 going to disrupt how your makeup sits or you 00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:24.880 have a bit more time for it to absorb before 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:27.640 you apply the rest of your products. But I definitely 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:30.079 agree with what you said about it does encourage 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:31.420 you to play chemist. And I think that's where 00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:33.240 you can run into problems. And then I do think 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.259 it's ironic now that brands that encourage like 00:23:36.259 --> 00:23:39.559 the use of acid toners and sort of everyday exfoliation 00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:43.700 and now pushing products which treat those issues. 00:23:43.700 --> 00:23:45.619 On a reverse the effects that they cause with 00:23:45.619 --> 00:23:47.720 their products. Yeah. And it's sometimes it's 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:51.880 the slightly frustrating side of the beauty industry 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:55.599 is you see brands sort of create a problem and 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.880 then sell the solution. which is not exclusive 00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:00.680 to beauty, we see that across lots of industries, 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:04.579 but I think it's why education is key because 00:24:04.579 --> 00:24:06.960 if you're over exfoliating that can lead to a 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:09.839 whole wealth of issues, you could have a much 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.460 more increased sensitivity, you could end up 00:24:12.460 --> 00:24:15.220 needing like help from a dermatologist which 00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:17.700 we know are hard to access, there are long huge 00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:20.059 waiting lines for the NHS, you could wait two 00:24:20.059 --> 00:24:22.720 years for a dermatologist, we also know that 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:25.480 private dermatologists are very expensive, so 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:27.559 you can really do a lot of damage to your skin 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:30.000 with topical products if you use them in the 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.079 wrong way. Definitely. And then you said that 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:36.380 earlier how brands don't have much time to kind 00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:38.680 of communicate these things to the consumer. 00:24:38.740 --> 00:24:41.059 So what do you think the solution is if there 00:24:41.059 --> 00:24:43.359 is one, because there is that problem of they're 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:45.440 trying to get people's attention, but also they 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:47.859 need to give them all the facts. Exactly. Yeah, 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.029 I think so. For example, I think One, a couple 00:24:51.029 --> 00:24:52.910 brands have done this really well. Bioma, for 00:24:52.910 --> 00:24:56.210 example, on its packaging, it lists the sort 00:24:56.210 --> 00:24:59.230 of core ingredients in the inky list. And the 00:24:59.230 --> 00:25:01.650 main one in the in an inky list, the ingredients 00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:04.269 you see listed on the packaging are any ingredients 00:25:04.269 --> 00:25:07.150 over 1 % within the formula. And they will say 00:25:07.150 --> 00:25:11.130 things like hyaluronic acid is hydrating, shea 00:25:11.130 --> 00:25:15.250 butter is a conditioning agent. And another ingredient 00:25:15.250 --> 00:25:17.029 might be a thickener to make the product more 00:25:17.029 --> 00:25:20.839 viscous. And then they also have a list of steps 00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:23.220 of where this product sits in your routine. Is 00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:25.680 it for cleansing? Is it for toning? Is it for 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:28.099 moisturizing? Or is it for protecting? Protect 00:25:28.099 --> 00:25:30.579 meaning SPF. And that's a really good way is 00:25:30.579 --> 00:25:32.099 if you're the customer looking at the product, 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:33.680 you immediately get all this information that 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:35.900 you can read. And the same thing with the Inkey 00:25:35.900 --> 00:25:38.339 List. On the interior of their packaging, they 00:25:38.339 --> 00:25:41.329 break down the ingredients in the in the product, 00:25:41.710 --> 00:25:44.109 why they work, who they're for, who they will 00:25:44.109 --> 00:25:46.589 work for, and who they will not work for. And 00:25:46.589 --> 00:25:49.690 small steps like that, where you can really utilize 00:25:49.690 --> 00:25:52.430 your product packaging as an education tool for 00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:54.349 your consumers. I think it's a fantastic way 00:25:54.349 --> 00:25:57.200 of doing it. But then I also think... Brands 00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:59.279 like Skin Rocks, for example, Caroline Hirons 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:01.500 we know has been in the skincare industry for 00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:05.420 years and years. She uses her TikTok and Instagram 00:26:05.420 --> 00:26:08.000 and the brand social media strategy is very much 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:10.319 has her front and center. So when she launches 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:13.109 a product. she is front and center explaining 00:26:13.109 --> 00:26:15.869 why she's created it, why she thinks it's worth 00:26:15.869 --> 00:26:18.670 it, how to apply it, package the deep dive on 00:26:18.670 --> 00:26:20.650 why they package it the way they have. And I 00:26:20.650 --> 00:26:22.430 think that's a great way because as a consumer, 00:26:22.690 --> 00:26:24.230 you'll then you feel like you have this direct 00:26:24.230 --> 00:26:27.289 access to a brand founder who knows their stuff. 00:26:27.630 --> 00:26:29.950 And whether or not you like Caroline Harrens 00:26:29.950 --> 00:26:32.309 or not, or Skin Rocks appeals to you or not, 00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:34.069 you're still a bit more informed about the brand 00:26:34.069 --> 00:26:37.730 than you are if you didn't have that. And I think 00:26:37.730 --> 00:26:40.049 that's a great way of utilizing sort of a public 00:26:40.049 --> 00:26:43.329 figure founder Or like Bioma and Inkeyless, utilising 00:26:43.329 --> 00:26:46.769 your packaging as a tool for education. Yeah, 00:26:46.769 --> 00:26:49.849 those are some really great examples. And I think 00:26:49.849 --> 00:26:51.950 with a lot of brand founders, there is that pressure 00:26:51.950 --> 00:26:54.730 to kind of be the face or ambassador of your 00:26:54.730 --> 00:26:58.029 brand, as opposed to just a figurehead. So I 00:26:58.029 --> 00:27:00.569 think having kind of that kind of certification 00:27:00.569 --> 00:27:04.009 and knowledge and doing those kinds of studies 00:27:04.009 --> 00:27:06.170 that you've done, I think is vital in that respect 00:27:06.170 --> 00:27:08.089 when you're creating content for your customers 00:27:08.089 --> 00:27:10.349 and saying, well, actually, you know, this is 00:27:10.650 --> 00:27:12.549 you know, this is the real deal. I actually do 00:27:12.549 --> 00:27:14.609 know what goes in my products and how they work. 00:27:15.289 --> 00:27:17.650 Just to sort of create that sort of level of 00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:20.769 reassurance that I think a lot of customers nowadays 00:27:20.769 --> 00:27:25.630 need. Yeah, I also think if you're you don't 00:27:25.630 --> 00:27:28.549 I think if you say something like Caroline Hirons, 00:27:28.930 --> 00:27:32.180 her being so visible and present and feeling 00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:34.180 accessible to people, she responds to people 00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:37.779 in the comments, for example. You can get direct 00:27:37.779 --> 00:27:39.920 feedback from her. She does lots of Q &A, so 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:42.279 you can ask her direct questions. Things like 00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:44.400 that make you feel like, one, it's a consumer 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.200 you're being listened to, but also this person 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:50.319 knows what they're talking about or is an expert 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:53.519 in a certain area of skincare and cares about 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:55.799 the consumer. It doesn't just feel like a CEO 00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:59.480 trying to make a quick buck off the market, which 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:01.680 I also think is very important. No, and I'm a 00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:03.720 huge fan of Caroline. I think it's her professional 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.940 reputation that's on the line as well. So she 00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:09.039 wouldn't put her name to anything that I think 00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:14.740 would not match up with industry standards and 00:28:14.740 --> 00:28:17.720 what people expect, that level of transparency 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:20.559 that people have come to expect from her. What 00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:23.539 ingredients and formulations are you most excited 00:28:23.539 --> 00:28:27.259 about in looking at your job as a trend forecaster? 00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:30.240 What's really kind of jumped out at you in the 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.299 last... few months and what do you think is set 00:28:32.299 --> 00:28:35.740 to be big? I think biotech and beauty is a really 00:28:35.740 --> 00:28:38.200 interesting area. And it's a big area of innovation. 00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:40.359 It's new and exciting. There's a brand called 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:43.599 Rio, which was created by a former beauty journalist 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:47.279 Joanna Elna. And she has studied a lot in Chinese 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.400 medicine after leaving journalism and has now 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:52.200 created this beautiful brand. It's a small curated 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.200 line. There's a cleanser, a skin broth serum, 00:28:54.619 --> 00:28:56.920 an eye cream, and flannels, which are fantastic 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:00.619 flannels, by the way. But she has worked with 00:29:00.619 --> 00:29:05.799 a company called Debu, which is a biotech lab 00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:09.220 backed by L 'Oreal. And they have utilized in 00:29:09.220 --> 00:29:11.480 their new eye cream this ingredient, which is 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:13.319 the first to market, first of its kind called 00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:17.799 DHK3. And it's a triple hydroxy flavonoid derived 00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:21.279 from plants. And they've basically isolated it 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:24.160 in its most potent form and used it in the eye 00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.259 cream to create this really beautiful balmy gel 00:29:27.259 --> 00:29:30.799 formula, which is great for skin barrier repair, 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:33.839 which we were talking about before. and it's 00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:36.240 a really interesting use of biotech in a luxurious 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.319 but accessible way. You can see it in store in 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:40.759 Liberty and you can buy online but it's sort 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.819 of if you buy the eye cream you are able to access 00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:47.339 this amazing wealth of research which has been 00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:51.740 years in the making to work out dhk3 which is 00:29:51.740 --> 00:29:54.680 a really high performing ingredient that's better 00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:57.650 than sort of your average of basic hyaluronic 00:29:57.650 --> 00:30:00.609 acid, for example, which is an effective ingredient 00:30:00.609 --> 00:30:03.190 but also has been around a very long time and 00:30:03.190 --> 00:30:05.269 is not the be all and end all of hydration. There's 00:30:05.269 --> 00:30:06.970 lots of other ways you can hydrate your skin. 00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:09.220 Yeah, and I've heard it can actually dehydrate 00:30:09.220 --> 00:30:10.779 your skin as well if you don't use it. Yeah, 00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:13.160 exactly. Again, it goes back to education, like 00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:14.619 consumers don't realise if you're using it in 00:30:14.619 --> 00:30:16.960 a very dry environment, your hyaluronic acid 00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:18.779 serum is not going to be as effective as if it's 00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:21.059 in a moist environment, which we often hear it 00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:23.299 recommended to dampen your skin first. So little 00:30:23.299 --> 00:30:26.839 things like that. And I think speaking to the 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.019 CEO of Debut at the eye creams launch a few weeks 00:30:30.019 --> 00:30:32.849 ago, his name's Joshua. He was saying how there 00:30:32.849 --> 00:30:35.329 are so many ways that this technology can be 00:30:35.329 --> 00:30:37.569 used. And I asked, is it possible to use this 00:30:37.569 --> 00:30:39.650 sort of technology to create a budget product? 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:42.410 Because Reoam is a beautiful luxury brand, but 00:30:42.410 --> 00:30:44.210 it is luxury. So the price point is not going 00:30:44.210 --> 00:30:46.829 to appeal to everyone. And he said, yep, there's 00:30:46.829 --> 00:30:49.130 so many ways you can use it to make your ingredients 00:30:49.130 --> 00:30:51.910 more effective. You can make the sourcing of 00:30:51.910 --> 00:30:54.670 ingredients a much more lab based. You're not 00:30:54.670 --> 00:30:57.450 actually pulling the plant from the ground. So 00:30:57.450 --> 00:31:00.450 there is a sustainability. benefit there as well 00:31:00.450 --> 00:31:02.130 and I think that's quite exciting because it 00:31:02.130 --> 00:31:06.930 makes biotech sounds really almost like dystopian 00:31:06.930 --> 00:31:09.829 and futuristic but it can actually be quite accessible 00:31:09.829 --> 00:31:11.630 within beauty and I think that's quite interesting. 00:31:12.509 --> 00:31:15.450 I also think there are The use of AI is quite 00:31:15.450 --> 00:31:18.269 exciting. For example, last year, I spent months 00:31:18.269 --> 00:31:20.589 working on a report for stylists about AI and 00:31:20.589 --> 00:31:23.589 beauty and how it's pioneering innovation. And 00:31:23.589 --> 00:31:25.910 there's a company I spoke to called The Good 00:31:25.910 --> 00:31:30.569 Face Project. And the CEO Ivers spent hours talking 00:31:30.569 --> 00:31:34.829 about its AI machine, which he calls Cara. And 00:31:34.829 --> 00:31:37.470 it works alongside cosmetic scientists and product 00:31:37.470 --> 00:31:40.160 developers to help them streamline processes 00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:42.700 within the business. For example, if you're a 00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:45.240 business with a sustainability manifesto, that 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.819 by 2030, you want to get rid of a certain list 00:31:48.819 --> 00:31:51.259 of ingredients to be more sustainable. Yeah. 00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:55.319 The Good Face project uses its AI to help product 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:58.119 developers and cosmetic scientists skim through 00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:01.960 scientific papers and read through research on 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:06.160 ingredients and pull together in minutes ingredients 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:09.039 that will work just as well. can make sure they 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:11.680 hit the manifesto without a team of cosmetic 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:13.779 scientists having to sit in a room and read through 00:32:13.779 --> 00:32:17.019 something. And it can do it in I think it's 13 00:32:17.019 --> 00:32:18.880 minutes instead of what could be months and months 00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:20.920 of work. And obviously, you still need human 00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:23.900 involvement, you still need that human eyes on 00:32:23.900 --> 00:32:26.019 it, and you need the expertise of cosmetic scientists. 00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:29.019 But tools like that can be really helpful in 00:32:29.019 --> 00:32:31.960 discovering new and exciting ingredients that 00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:33.339 we might not know about yet, but in a couple 00:32:33.339 --> 00:32:35.940 years time could be in a lot of the serums we're 00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:38.319 using, in moisturisers we're using, in cleansers. 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.380 So I think there's lots of room for exciting 00:32:41.380 --> 00:32:44.700 innovation. And while I think it's good to have 00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:46.859 a healthy scepticism towards AI, and I don't 00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:48.680 think it should be used to replace humans at 00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:52.220 all. No, I see it as a powerful system. Exactly, 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:55.140 yeah. And that can be a really useful tool for 00:32:55.140 --> 00:32:57.619 cosmetic formulating. Definitely, especially 00:32:57.619 --> 00:32:59.559 in terms of sustainability as well, because I 00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:02.500 think it can help kind of move the needle and 00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:05.539 make the industry as a whole a bit more sustainable 00:33:05.539 --> 00:33:08.579 without, like you say, people having to sift 00:33:08.579 --> 00:33:11.480 through thousands of research papers in order 00:33:11.480 --> 00:33:14.859 to find those kind of perfect ingredients. And 00:33:14.859 --> 00:33:17.000 going back to biotech, I think that that's kind 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.019 of a lovely example of how the natural world 00:33:20.019 --> 00:33:23.059 and then also science and technology can... be 00:33:23.059 --> 00:33:25.700 utilized in tandem rather than just saying, well, 00:33:25.700 --> 00:33:29.420 just use natural products and, you know, but 00:33:29.420 --> 00:33:30.980 that, you know, because I think it shows that 00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:33.140 how technology is kind of influencing the beauty 00:33:33.140 --> 00:33:35.920 industry, but in the sense that these ingredients 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.700 are just not just effective, but also safe and 00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:41.200 sustainable. Yeah. And when we talk about sustainability, 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:44.500 I think sometimes we think about like, oh, recyclable 00:33:44.500 --> 00:33:48.279 packaging or plastic free, but within the sustainability 00:33:48.279 --> 00:33:50.779 conversation is also the welfare of the workers 00:33:50.779 --> 00:33:53.440 who might be you're forcing your ingredients 00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:56.140 from. For example, shea butter. We know a lot 00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:58.480 of African countries create that and it's grown 00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.740 there. Are those workers being looked after? 00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:02.839 Are they being paid fairly? Is there a transparent 00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:06.420 supply chain? And I think there's loads of different 00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:08.719 methods and approaches of being sustainable that 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:11.760 is not just ingredient -led. No. Ingredients 00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:16.079 are not just, we use this plant -derived ingredient. 00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:19.320 It's who is picking that ingredient? If we're 00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:21.989 taking it from the ground, Are we replacing it? 00:34:22.070 --> 00:34:25.429 Is it replenishing? Is it renewable? Or sometimes 00:34:25.429 --> 00:34:27.829 in a lab it's actually more sustainable because 00:34:27.829 --> 00:34:30.329 you're not taking from the environment, you're 00:34:30.329 --> 00:34:32.949 creating nothing. You're not disrupting biodiversity 00:34:32.949 --> 00:34:35.750 with aggressive farming and causing deforestation 00:34:35.750 --> 00:34:38.489 for example. Exactly, and the hair care brand 00:34:38.489 --> 00:34:40.329 Daveners does an excellent job at that. They 00:34:40.329 --> 00:34:44.250 are based in Italy and they are family run, but 00:34:44.250 --> 00:34:46.289 they do a lot of work within regenerative farming. 00:34:46.909 --> 00:34:49.590 So they spend a lot of time educating their farmers 00:34:49.590 --> 00:34:52.659 on how the ingredients that they're picking from 00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:54.619 their farms and growing on their farms are used, 00:34:54.940 --> 00:34:57.900 how they can use more renewable sources, how 00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:00.079 they can create a better environment for these 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.480 to grow. The farmers are well looked after on 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.039 the bottle of every product you say, it will 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.239 tell you which farm was created on and whose 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:10.659 farm it is. And that's a great way of keeping 00:35:10.659 --> 00:35:12.559 transparent about the ingredients, but while 00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:15.000 also trying to be sustainable, eco -friendly, 00:35:15.380 --> 00:35:17.599 and making real changes rather than just saying 00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:21.519 we're cutting out all plastic. Yeah. alternatives 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.840 like glass for example and you see I think sustainability 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:27.960 is an area where there's lots of problematic 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:31.760 language and the way it's managed. It's basically 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:34.000 like recycled plastic but that doesn't sort of 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.039 solve the problem it doesn't close the loop because 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:39.179 yeah it's not it can't be kind of quote unquote 00:35:39.179 --> 00:35:41.280 perfectly recycled can it because you still need 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.780 kind of more plastic to keep the thing going. 00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:46.079 Exactly well you see sort of products that say 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:49.570 they're recyclable but the lid is not. For example, 00:35:50.070 --> 00:35:52.329 on sort of pump product like cleansers, very 00:35:52.329 --> 00:35:54.269 difficult. Sometimes they're sealed on, you can't 00:35:54.269 --> 00:35:56.389 separate them to recycle the bottle. Sometimes 00:35:56.389 --> 00:35:58.250 you can't recycle the pump at all because it 00:35:58.250 --> 00:36:00.530 has too much plastic in it. That can't be, that's 00:36:00.530 --> 00:36:05.869 not biodegradable. It can get very messy and 00:36:05.869 --> 00:36:08.210 there are so many different ways to be sustainable 00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:12.139 beyond just recycling a bottle. And on that note, 00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:14.579 what do you think about certification? So sort 00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:17.280 of governing bodies, like B Corp certification, 00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:19.059 for example, because there's been a lot of chatter 00:36:19.059 --> 00:36:22.940 I've noticed recently about the sort of integrity 00:36:22.940 --> 00:36:24.800 of some of these companies, especially because 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:26.900 they make they stand to make a profit. I mean, 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:30.079 they're their businesses, basically. So when 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:32.300 somebody sort of, you know, gets certified, you 00:36:32.300 --> 00:36:34.119 know, they have to pay, companies need to pay 00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:36.079 to be certified. So it's in their interests. 00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:38.860 to sort of give out this certification. I mean, 00:36:38.900 --> 00:36:40.559 have you kind of, do you have any thoughts on 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:41.980 that? Do you think it's still a good idea for 00:36:41.980 --> 00:36:45.900 brands to be kind of certified by a specific 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.239 governing body? Yes and no, I think, for example, 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.760 BCOP, I know they have quite a rigorous examination 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:56.440 criteria for the award at BCOP. But I also think, 00:36:58.019 --> 00:36:59.179 like we were saying, there's different levels 00:36:59.179 --> 00:37:02.139 of sustainability. So you can be, say you're 00:37:02.139 --> 00:37:03.960 a sustainable brand, but do the absolute bare 00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:07.760 minimum and try and use a less wasteful form 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:10.219 of plastic, but you're still using plastic. Yeah. 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:18.159 And I think, like you said, you can use, you 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.840 can be associated with these, which can help 00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:22.579 because then consumers then recognize it. And 00:37:22.579 --> 00:37:24.639 as these companies build their profile, B Corp 00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:27.039 is now a much bigger and more widely understood 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.139 by consumers than it was, say, four years ago. 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:32.719 But I also think there's lots of fantastic brands 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:36.099 doing great work. who are small, for example, 00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:39.340 they can't afford to pay these accreditations. 00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:41.440 And so that does also cut them out of the conversation. 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:44.719 And you think that there is a hard line to tie 00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.719 between, well, the companies such as BCOP need 00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:50.699 to make money to continue with research and their 00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:53.099 marketing and putting out that this is how they 00:37:53.099 --> 00:37:55.199 examine products and this is how they award brands. 00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:56.619 But then you've got smaller brands at the end 00:37:56.619 --> 00:38:00.380 of the scale who can't access that accreditation, 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.059 which could help them. put them on the map more. 00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:06.639 So I think it can be quite a tricky line to toe 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:10.619 for brands. Yeah, for sure. And with the studies 00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:14.079 that you undertook, obviously it sort of encompassed 00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:16.340 so many different categories in the beauty industry. 00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:18.980 So from like skincare and oral care. Do you think 00:38:18.980 --> 00:38:22.400 there are any kind of overlooked categories or 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.420 sort of gaps in the market that you think have 00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:29.000 huge innovation potential at the moment? I think 00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:32.239 one overlooked market is the mature beauty consumer. 00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:34.880 There are some brands doing fantastic work. For 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:38.900 example, Sarah Creel, who's the former CEO of 00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:42.820 Victoria Beckham Beauty. She left in 2022 to 00:38:42.820 --> 00:38:45.739 launch her own brand Sarah Creel in the US. It's 00:38:45.739 --> 00:38:48.000 not available in the UK yet, annoyingly, but 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.400 it is for a 40 plus consumer and it is focused 00:38:51.400 --> 00:38:53.840 on making products for an older consumer with 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:56.840 older skin needs who doesn't want a full coverage 00:38:56.840 --> 00:38:58.559 foundation, wants something lighter, but wants 00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:00.239 something hydrating enough in their foundation, 00:39:00.260 --> 00:39:03.119 for example, to not sink into fine lines. And 00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:05.159 then we've seen sort of Skin Rocks doing a great 00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:08.000 job with that, Westman Atelier as well. And I 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:12.920 think often Gen Z and Gen Alpha, I guess, is 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.920 the next one. It's such a big focus for brands 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:17.860 that I think older consumers get forgotten about, 00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:20.519 who often have more money to spend on brands, 00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:22.519 but are more fussed with what they want and more 00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:27.309 willing to spend on luxury. And I think one thing 00:39:27.309 --> 00:39:29.449 I would love to see within that, from brands 00:39:29.449 --> 00:39:31.329 overall, is if you're launching a product that's 00:39:31.329 --> 00:39:33.389 got an anti -aging focus, use someone with fine 00:39:33.389 --> 00:39:35.369 lines and wrinkles in your marketing campaigns. 00:39:36.090 --> 00:39:39.650 Don't use a 21 year old model just to sell us 00:39:39.650 --> 00:39:41.309 Advanced Night Repair from Estee Lauder, for 00:39:41.309 --> 00:39:43.809 example, which is a fantastic product, but it 00:39:43.809 --> 00:39:46.869 is for older skin. No, if I see an airbrushed 00:39:46.869 --> 00:39:48.590 20 year old staring out at me, that's not going 00:39:48.590 --> 00:39:50.429 to tell me anything about what the product could 00:39:50.429 --> 00:39:52.949 do. And then also you've got things like if you 00:39:52.949 --> 00:39:56.440 are launching a spot, product or breakout product 00:39:56.440 --> 00:39:58.960 for acne prone skin, show people with breakouts, 00:39:59.179 --> 00:40:01.820 show people with acne in your product imagery. 00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:04.179 Don't just show someone with perfect skin, because 00:40:04.179 --> 00:40:06.039 that's someone with acne. If I see that, that 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:07.599 doesn't tell me anything about your product's 00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:09.980 performance. I think it's these older brands 00:40:09.980 --> 00:40:11.960 speaking to an older consumer really well, like 00:40:11.960 --> 00:40:15.639 Sarah Creel, that are doing a really great job 00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:18.719 at sort of capitalizing on that underserved air 00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:20.840 of the market, but there's still a huge demand 00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:23.659 for product. There are lots, there's lots of 00:40:23.659 --> 00:40:26.980 people, men, women, everyone in between, who 00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:29.599 are willing to spend on products if they work 00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:32.760 for them, rather than sort of the way Gen Z approaches 00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:34.500 things where it's sort of like trying and testing 00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:36.539 and mixing and matching and using four different 00:40:36.539 --> 00:40:40.840 products for their lip color. Exactly. I think 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:44.280 there's a lot from there. I also think something 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.739 I'm seeing recently is more expansion within 00:40:46.739 --> 00:40:49.659 the hard water, solving the hard water issue. 00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:52.340 So we know in London and Oxford, for example, 00:40:52.420 --> 00:40:54.460 and especially the south of England, hard water. 00:40:55.109 --> 00:40:57.429 is much worse than it is in other parts of the 00:40:57.429 --> 00:41:00.050 country. And hard water has an effect on your 00:41:00.050 --> 00:41:02.429 hair health. It's not just your lime scale in 00:41:02.429 --> 00:41:04.150 your bathroom and the water pressure. We know 00:41:04.150 --> 00:41:05.989 it can be very drying for hair. We know it can 00:41:05.989 --> 00:41:08.230 affect how well your color lasts if you get color 00:41:08.230 --> 00:41:10.650 treatments. Like I, for example, get highlights. 00:41:10.730 --> 00:41:12.829 I find color doesn't last in my hair as well. 00:41:13.190 --> 00:41:15.030 And when I've spoken to my hairdresser, she said 00:41:15.030 --> 00:41:16.650 she's from New Zealand. She said in New Zealand 00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:19.030 and Australia, because of the difference in the 00:41:19.030 --> 00:41:21.329 water pressure and how they have softer water, 00:41:21.969 --> 00:41:23.929 you can get a much better color that will last 00:41:23.929 --> 00:41:26.079 a lot longer. that's partly just environmental 00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:28.679 but there's also now brands launching products 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.699 or counteract that like Hello Clean and like 00:41:32.699 --> 00:41:34.699 people like that and Acton Acre that have these 00:41:34.699 --> 00:41:37.500 hard water focused products and I think that's 00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:40.300 solving a consumer need that's only going to 00:41:40.300 --> 00:41:43.800 become more prevalent and I think we're all about 00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:45.619 trying to get our hair to look as good as possible 00:41:45.619 --> 00:41:48.500 and using masks and treatments but if the water 00:41:48.500 --> 00:41:51.559 you're washing your hair under is causing damage 00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:54.920 to your hair Exactly. I'm doing all of that good 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:57.139 work. Exactly. And no amount of hair mask is 00:41:57.139 --> 00:41:59.099 going to fix that. But there's things like shower 00:41:59.099 --> 00:42:00.920 head filters, which I'm testing at the minute. 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:04.059 They're a great way to sort of counteract that. 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:06.380 And they are partly wellness. They're going to 00:42:06.380 --> 00:42:08.000 improve your shower experience. We need to shower 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.980 every day. They're an easy day -to -day product, 00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:13.019 but they can still be sort of really innovative 00:42:13.019 --> 00:42:14.860 with their technology. And then you've also got 00:42:14.860 --> 00:42:17.300 like shampoos and treatments and things like 00:42:17.300 --> 00:42:19.679 that to counteract hard water damage. So I think 00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:22.320 that's quite an interesting category. And then 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.519 lastly, I would say sort of makeup packaging. 00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:27.739 I think Danessa Myricks, I would say is at the 00:42:27.739 --> 00:42:29.880 forefront of this. Last year, she launched a 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:32.760 Groundworks palette, which is a large eyeshadow 00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:36.280 and complexion. palette but the pans are magnetic 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:39.699 and removable and you can condense it down to 00:42:39.699 --> 00:42:43.400 a smaller palette using these cleverly attached 00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:45.780 magnetic panels within the eyeshadow palette. 00:42:45.820 --> 00:42:48.539 So you can take a eight shade palette and create 00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:50.960 it into two or four that you can put in your 00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:53.320 handbag and you've got your whole makeup routine 00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:55.570 in your handbag. Things like that, like packaging, 00:42:55.730 --> 00:42:58.550 I think is really a really key area where we 00:42:58.550 --> 00:43:00.110 can see a lot of innovation. And it's sort of 00:43:00.110 --> 00:43:02.289 the first thing you see as a customer. And it 00:43:02.289 --> 00:43:03.750 can be the first thing that gets you interested. 00:43:04.190 --> 00:43:06.849 So I think I'd like to see more things like that. 00:43:07.289 --> 00:43:09.110 Because we talk a lot about makeup on the go. 00:43:09.349 --> 00:43:11.889 But I think realistically, I'm not putting foundation 00:43:11.889 --> 00:43:14.989 on on the go. I'm not applying the go. I'm applying 00:43:14.989 --> 00:43:17.630 lip balm, I might bring a powder to touch up. 00:43:18.070 --> 00:43:20.670 Exactly. No, I'm all about packaging. Packaging 00:43:20.670 --> 00:43:22.690 is a big part of the decision making process 00:43:22.690 --> 00:43:24.710 for me, I have to say, not just about the product. 00:43:25.010 --> 00:43:26.449 Obviously, I want the product to work and to 00:43:26.449 --> 00:43:29.269 be good. But yeah, some nice packaging that it's 00:43:29.269 --> 00:43:32.530 kind of like a status symbol, isn't it? And packaging, 00:43:32.769 --> 00:43:36.210 like the course I did with the Society of Cosmetic 00:43:36.210 --> 00:43:40.170 Scientists, they cover packaging very in depth 00:43:40.170 --> 00:43:42.389 within it, because packaging is so key to how 00:43:42.389 --> 00:43:45.010 a product performs. If a product is too viscous, 00:43:45.130 --> 00:43:47.679 it can't be in a It needs to be in a tub that 00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:49.559 you can put your hand into and scoop out product. 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:54.820 If you have a more, a thinner, watery based product, 00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:57.199 a tube is probably better or a pump where you 00:43:57.199 --> 00:44:00.219 control the dosage. And how a product performs 00:44:00.219 --> 00:44:03.239 also is reliant on the packaging, not just the 00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:06.019 formula inside. I think sometimes that can be 00:44:06.019 --> 00:44:08.929 difficult. I don't think that's always communicated 00:44:08.929 --> 00:44:10.730 as well to consumers. It's sort of like, oh, 00:44:10.769 --> 00:44:12.769 this, I don't understand why it's like this or 00:44:12.769 --> 00:44:14.349 why couldn't they have put it in a pot and much 00:44:14.349 --> 00:44:16.269 rather it, but actually it might not work as 00:44:16.269 --> 00:44:18.130 well. It might be a lot harder to use. That's 00:44:18.130 --> 00:44:20.349 the thing. It's a really important part when 00:44:20.349 --> 00:44:22.409 you're formulating a product is what is it housed 00:44:22.409 --> 00:44:25.349 in and how does that address a consumer need 00:44:25.349 --> 00:44:27.969 as much as the formula that's inside it. And 00:44:27.969 --> 00:44:29.329 that's why I think more and more of us are going 00:44:29.329 --> 00:44:31.510 towards kind of water -free products because 00:44:31.510 --> 00:44:33.429 sadly, if a product's got water in it, you need 00:44:33.429 --> 00:44:37.110 plastic because it's not gonna then leak. as 00:44:37.110 --> 00:44:39.730 you know, there aren't many kind of non plastic 00:44:39.730 --> 00:44:42.170 alternatives that can hold a water, you know, 00:44:42.230 --> 00:44:45.750 a water, a liquid product as well. So it could 00:44:45.750 --> 00:44:47.429 be just like not just changing the packaging, 00:44:47.489 --> 00:44:50.349 but the types of products that are being out 00:44:50.349 --> 00:44:53.389 there. Like substrate, there's a brand called 00:44:53.389 --> 00:44:58.289 Substract, which uses, it's all like solid products. 00:44:58.289 --> 00:45:00.650 So it's free from water. And again, if you also 00:45:00.650 --> 00:45:05.019 have water, you need a preservative. So if you 00:45:05.019 --> 00:45:06.619 use a water -free product that's another way 00:45:06.619 --> 00:45:09.780 you can cut out preservatives if that's a concern 00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:12.500 for you while still getting effective product 00:45:12.500 --> 00:45:15.380 and not demonizing effective preservatives that 00:45:15.380 --> 00:45:17.460 are required in water -based products. It's sort 00:45:17.460 --> 00:45:20.980 of a bit of a vicious cycle but subtracting these 00:45:20.980 --> 00:45:23.460 amazing like solid cleansing balms in these wooden 00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:26.000 casing packaging they're really beautiful really 00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.920 lovely and that's a great way of sort of being 00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:30.719 a bit more sustainable in your routine, but still 00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:32.219 getting all the benefits of a cleansing balm 00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:34.139 that effectively removes your makeup the same 00:45:34.139 --> 00:45:35.960 way it would if it was a package in a plastic 00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:38.500 jar. No, for sure. I just can't, I don't know 00:45:38.500 --> 00:45:39.980 about you, I just can't get on board with solid 00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:42.860 products. I don't know, as a consumer, I like 00:45:42.860 --> 00:45:46.599 a sort of a pump hand soap rather than like, 00:45:47.019 --> 00:45:49.099 you know, a bar of soap that's just going to 00:45:49.099 --> 00:45:51.159 go cakey and nasty on the corner of the sink. 00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:57.630 I mean... The problem is that if you are making 00:45:57.630 --> 00:45:59.349 a solid product, we know there needs to be more 00:45:59.349 --> 00:46:02.829 oils, more waxes to make it solid. And it's solidified 00:46:02.829 --> 00:46:05.969 and it's chilled and then it remains solid. But 00:46:05.969 --> 00:46:08.550 you also, like I personally don't love using 00:46:08.550 --> 00:46:10.710 a solid bar of soap because it's messy, because 00:46:10.710 --> 00:46:14.309 then you need to get a soap dish. And then all 00:46:14.309 --> 00:46:16.429 these dirty marks around it. And I find that 00:46:16.429 --> 00:46:19.449 as a user experience, I don't find that as clean 00:46:19.449 --> 00:46:21.909 or as tidy or as neat. Yeah, it feels less hygienic, 00:46:21.929 --> 00:46:24.239 doesn't it in a way? Even though that's a good 00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:26.679 way to cut out to use less water in your routine, 00:46:26.780 --> 00:46:29.280 we know the big issue within sustainability, 00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.820 not just within beauty at all. But it is sort 00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:34.980 of like, sustainability is quite a tricky one, 00:46:35.019 --> 00:46:37.880 because you also want to meet a user's needs, 00:46:38.059 --> 00:46:40.860 you want it to be a nice user experience worthwhile 00:46:40.860 --> 00:46:43.230 to spend your money on. while also hitting all 00:46:43.230 --> 00:46:45.289 the sustainability criteria. So I do think that's 00:46:45.289 --> 00:46:47.489 quite tricky for brands to get right. Definitely 00:46:47.489 --> 00:46:49.650 like a shampoo bar as well. That's fine if you've 00:46:49.650 --> 00:46:51.610 got kind of shoulder length, fine hair. But for 00:46:51.610 --> 00:46:53.789 me, I have waist length textured hair. Like a 00:46:53.789 --> 00:46:55.829 shampoo bar is not going to do it. It's not going 00:46:55.829 --> 00:47:00.409 to cut it for me. Sustainability, particularly 00:47:00.409 --> 00:47:03.170 in hair care is not as great as doesn't seem 00:47:03.170 --> 00:47:05.469 to be making as many strides within inclusivity 00:47:05.469 --> 00:47:08.289 as say like makeup does. Like a shampoo bar is 00:47:08.289 --> 00:47:11.969 not going to work if you have 4C afro hair. that's 00:47:11.969 --> 00:47:14.429 the thing well you might need a lot more you 00:47:14.429 --> 00:47:16.369 need a lot more product we know they we know 00:47:16.369 --> 00:47:17.889 that sort of that hair type needs a lot more 00:47:17.889 --> 00:47:20.769 light conditioning and it has a much more thorough 00:47:20.769 --> 00:47:23.090 washing process i can just use any basic shampoo 00:47:23.090 --> 00:47:26.070 because i have caucasian straight fine hair and 00:47:26.070 --> 00:47:29.750 i'll probably be fine but i don't think when 00:47:29.750 --> 00:47:32.230 it comes to sustainability i don't think inclusivity 00:47:32.230 --> 00:47:36.730 is often as much of a focus no like skincare 00:47:36.730 --> 00:47:39.510 and makeup no that's a really good point and 00:47:39.510 --> 00:47:41.559 i think that's something that I think a lot of 00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:43.679 people miss out in the sustainability conversation. 00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:46.760 What's the one piece of advice that you would 00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:49.599 give to beauty brand founders who want to become 00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:52.659 kind of more fluent in cosmetic science? If they 00:47:52.659 --> 00:47:55.019 don't have time to kind of undertake the sort 00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:56.860 of more formal training or do the sort of courses 00:47:56.860 --> 00:47:59.719 that you've taken, what would be sort of something 00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:02.079 that you would suggest they do in the meantime? 00:48:03.579 --> 00:48:05.840 If they can't do undertake formal training or 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:08.820 they're unable to do like the SES courses that 00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:12.349 I did, There are so many other avenues where 00:48:12.349 --> 00:48:14.150 you can learn more about cosmetic science. For 00:48:14.150 --> 00:48:18.150 example, read, read, read. As a journalist, I 00:48:18.150 --> 00:48:19.969 have to read constantly to be up to date on what's 00:48:19.969 --> 00:48:22.489 happening. And there are so many resources like 00:48:22.489 --> 00:48:25.570 Cosmetics Business do an excellent coverage of 00:48:25.570 --> 00:48:27.869 ingredients with their Pure Beauty magazine. 00:48:28.809 --> 00:48:32.210 Websites like Glossy or The Industry or Beauty 00:48:32.210 --> 00:48:35.210 Independent do fantastic reporting on brands 00:48:35.210 --> 00:48:37.429 that are using emerging ingredients, emerging 00:48:37.429 --> 00:48:40.449 tools like AI and how they're being used to source 00:48:40.449 --> 00:48:42.829 new ingredients, new packaging developments, 00:48:42.849 --> 00:48:45.480 etc. And I also think it's important to embrace 00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:48.300 the beauty community. For example, on TikTok, 00:48:48.739 --> 00:48:51.559 there's an American duo called the Lipstick Lesbians. 00:48:51.820 --> 00:48:53.400 Oh, I follow them on Instagram. I'm obsessed 00:48:53.400 --> 00:48:55.900 with them. Fantastic. And they have just launched 00:48:55.900 --> 00:48:59.320 Let's Learn Beauty. It's their own cosmetic science 00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:02.340 course. And it's for anyone. So a beauty enthusiast, 00:49:02.500 --> 00:49:05.699 a founder, an influencer, a journalist. And it 00:49:05.699 --> 00:49:08.460 covers why products are the way they are, how 00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:10.340 they're packaged, what it means, what you can 00:49:10.340 --> 00:49:13.159 expect from them. difficulties in formulating 00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:15.360 those products. And there's so there's loads 00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:18.320 of resources available. And one thing I would 00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.559 say about the course I did is it's app based, 00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:23.179 so I could do it anytime I wanted within a year, 00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:25.099 I could do it, you could do it from your phone 00:49:25.099 --> 00:49:28.639 if you wanted. It's a really great way to fit 00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:31.260 into a very busy lifestyle. And I also think 00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:33.059 there's a brilliant podcast like the Eco World 00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:36.219 podcast is fantastic. I think this, I think it's 00:49:36.219 --> 00:49:38.940 also well worth following cosmetic formulators. 00:49:39.509 --> 00:49:42.010 on their social channels that have built a social 00:49:42.010 --> 00:49:44.949 following. For example, Dr. Michelle Wong from 00:49:44.949 --> 00:49:48.250 Lab Muffin or Jen Novakovich from the Eco Well, 00:49:48.829 --> 00:49:52.570 who are speaking to brands, to consumers who 00:49:52.570 --> 00:49:57.250 are helping make complicated science digestible. 00:49:57.610 --> 00:49:59.250 And I think that's a really great resource to 00:49:59.250 --> 00:50:01.809 sort of keep on your radar at all times. No, 00:50:01.809 --> 00:50:03.449 I think it's so important given the amount of 00:50:03.449 --> 00:50:06.019 misinformation that's out there. Louise, thank 00:50:06.019 --> 00:50:08.360 you so much for joining me. It's been really 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:10.199 lovely. I could chat about this all day with 00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:13.119 you, to be honest. Like limited on time, but 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:16.619 thank you so much for joining me. And yeah, hopefully. 00:50:17.389 --> 00:50:20.030 have you back on at some stage again soon, but 00:50:20.030 --> 00:50:23.250 looking forward to reading some more of your 00:50:23.250 --> 00:50:26.389 reports and articles. I'll include your Instagram 00:50:26.389 --> 00:50:28.289 handle so people that want to follow you, they 00:50:28.289 --> 00:50:32.730 can keep up to date on your latest reports and 00:50:32.730 --> 00:50:34.429 things like that. But yeah, thank you so much, 00:50:34.469 --> 00:50:36.329 it was lovely chatting with you. Thank you so 00:50:36.329 --> 00:50:51.559 much for having me. I hope you enjoyed that episode. 00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:53.719 All links will be in the show notes and feel 00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:57.139 free to visit smartbeautycreative .com or visit 00:50:57.139 --> 00:50:59.579 us over on Instagram to find out more about what 00:50:59.579 --> 00:51:02.039 we do. And if you enjoyed listening, please don't 00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:04.380 forget to rate and review Smart Beauty on iTunes 00:51:04.380 --> 00:51:07.059 as it helps people find us. See you next time!