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hello at smartbeautycreative .com to find out
more. Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty Podcast.
I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist
and founder of copy led branding agency, Smart
Beauty Creative. We're here to create your brand
voice and craft the story behind it. Today, I'm
thrilled to be joined by Louise Whitbread, a
respected beauty journalist who has taken her
expertise to the next level by completing a certification
in cosmetic science. Louise and I have crossed
paths numerous times in the beauty journalism
world over the years and I've always admired
her commitment to evidence -based reporting.
What sets Louise apart is her dedication to understanding
beauty at a deeper level. She's not just reporting
on products but truly comprehending how they're
formulated, why they work, and when marketing
claims don't match reality. she's written for
the likes of the independent, stylist and vogue
business. In today's conversation we'll explore
what inspired Louise to pursue formal education
in cosmetic science, discuss the rampant misinformation
in beauty marketing, examine sustainability challenges
facing the industry and get her insights on exciting
innovations and underserved markets. So if you're
tired of beauty buzzwords and want the real science
behind your skincare, makeup and hair care, you're
in for a treat. Let's dive in. So hi Louise,
lovely to get you on the podcast and obviously
like we've worked together for I think a few
years now. So yeah, I just really admire the
fact that you've completed your Cosmetic Science
Certification. Can't get my words out this morning.
So what inspired you to look into formulations
at such a deep level and aspects of product development
alongside your journalism career? Like how did
all that start? Thank you, Viola. It was actually
a friend of mine called Lisa Payne, who is the
head of beauty over at Stylers, who first told
me back at the end of 2023 about this new course
at the Society of Cosmetic Scientists for offering.
And it's an introduction to cosmetic science
course. And it's created by industry experts,
cosmetic scientists, formulators, a few journalists
as well. And it's for people that don't have
a chemistry degree but want to have a better
understanding of cosmetic science. I thought
it would be really useful to get a better understanding
into cosmetic ingredients in products, especially
given that I write about formulas all the time.
I do a lot of product testing. Product reviews
are a really key part of what my work involves,
along with my trend forecasting work. And I wanted
to get a much better understanding of how ingredients
work, why they work, why products are packaged
the way they are, how brands are trying to align
their product formulations that are both innovative,
but also solve consumer problems. me changing
consumer needs. And I thought it would just make
me a better reporter, more analytical. And when
I'm attending these brand launches, or I'm trying
out a product for the first time, I have a much
better sort of base knowledge to go from to be
able to say that that's why that works, or this
ingredient is great because of this, this isn't
going to work if you have this type of skin,
etc. So I just thought it could be much more
sort of all rounder background when I'm approaching
my work. No, it's incredible. And I think it's
it shows a great sort of sense of responsibility
that you have to your readers that, yeah, like
I said, as a journalist myself, we sent all this
stuff and we sort of sent press releases and
it's trying to kind of wade through the marketing
stories and get to the actual facts of the situation.
So do you feel like sort of more journalists
should sort of maybe follow suit where that's
concerned? Because there is kind of a lot of
misinformation out there. And it can be hard
to kind of work out what is sort of myth versus
fact. Yeah, absolutely. And I do think going
back to what you said about responsibility, I
do think influencers and journalists, journalists
more so, but I do think there sometimes it's
easy to get caught up in all these lovely new
launches. And there's a great perks of the job.
Like I'll often try out treatments, which is
lovely. And it is part of my job of testing that
product. I can't write about a product I haven't
tried, but it is my responsibility as a journalist
to communicate clearly to customers and beauty
consumers in an unbiased way and not be aligned
with brands just because I like them or I've
been gifted product. Help them decipher what
is a very saturated market. And I think the course
that the Society of Cosmetic Scientists offer,
and they offer multiple courses of different
sort of levels and abilities. And I think If
you can do it, I would really recommend it. It's
app -based. You can do it all from home. You
can do it from your phone if you want to. It's
a great one to fit into freelance life like mine
if you're in -house. But I do think one thing
that has been really helpful is when I now go
to launches and I'm looking at ingredients and
things, I am able to call out the bullshit from
beauty brands. Excuse my language. There is so
much of it and you are bombarded by brands saying,
our product is the best. This ingredient is the
best. And yeah, I can better decipher like, yes,
that is, or actually, there's no actual scientific
evidence or clinical evidence proving what you're
saying. And it's all very well and good to say,
our 100 pound moisturizer is amazing. But do
you need it? Does it actually follow through
on what it's saying? Does it follow through on
its performance claims? Or is it just like clever
marketing? And I think between the two and finding
sort of the line in the middle of what's true.
is a really important job as a journalist so
I would highly recommend it to other journalists
and I think it's a great way to sort of improve
your knowledge because the industry is always
changing and I think your skill set and your
knowledge should also evolve with it. 100%. And
it's kind of what we're trying to do here at
Smart Beauty is getting rid of, as you say, the
bullshit behind beauty marketing. So I feel like
the world of formulations, it's kind of there's
a lot of gatekeeping and it's kind of this, there's
a lot of smoke and mirrors isn't there? Do you
think it's very useful for like on entrepreneurs
to kind of take courses like this even if you
might not have a scientific background do you
think it's good for brand founders because a
lot of the time they have a formulator and they
kind of defer to them and it feels like there's
a bit of a disconnect there like these are your
product this is your range you should know exactly
what is going into them into these products and
how everything works Absolutely. And part of
the, on the Society of Cosmetic Science website,
when I was looking into this course, they list
people that would be suitable for doing the course.
And like I said, it's for people without a chemistry
degree, but they said brand founders could benefit
from this. Journalists, people that are just
beauty enthusiasts can access it. But I think
as a brand founder, if you don't have formal
cosmetic science training or a background in
cosmetic science, tools like this are a fantastic
way to be more educated and then be able to better
communicate to a consumer. I think If you are
founding a brand, you should know absolutely
as much as possible about that brand. You don't
need to be a cosmetic scientist to launch a brand,
but you should be able to tell a journalist like
me or you about what's in the formula, why you've
decided to use the ingredients you have, why
you can justify the price point, what decisions
have you made about the packaging, what markets
you want to sell in. For example, the regulatory
framework for the UK is different to Japan, which
is different to the US. If you're planning to
expand in those areas, you can't just have a
nice market marketing campaign with great imagery,
great TikTok content, you need to have an understanding
of what consumer need are we meeting? How is,
what is this useful for if there's already a
sea of products that, essentially there is something
for everyone out there, what makes you different.
And I think having that credibility to be able
to talk about your products and your brand in
a way that's thorough, that shows you're educated
and informed is only going to strengthen your
brand. always referring to your cosmetic scientists
or your product formulators, I think can be a
bit of a weakness. You should be, as a team,
you should be working together. I know that no
one is expecting sort of the CEO of a company
to have the same amount of knowledge as say the
scientists in the lab creating the product, but
you should know that. And that also comes into
sort of, do you know where you're sourcing your
ingredients from? Yeah. You're sustainable or
trying to be a sustainable brand. Can you explain
to people, industry insiders and your consumers
and potential consumers? How sustainable is your
product? How, where are you getting your ingredients
from? If they're lab based, how are they more
effective than what's derived from say plants,
for example, and how are you understanding the
changing beauty market to appeal to consumer
needs? So I think I would really recommend it
to a brand founder if they don't have that formal
training already. Definitely. And I think, like
you say, sustainability kind of feeds into it.
And I think the lack of knowledge kind of contributes
to this kind of binary approach, like natural
is good, synthetic is bad, when actually the
reality is a lot different. I mean, I love, you
know, I love a natural beauty range, but I love
some cool technology as well. So you think that
sort of these kinds of, you know, the more that
this kind of information is available, the more
that the conversation will be sort of less black
and white, and there'll be less kind of, you
know, scaremongering, basically, when it comes
to sustainability, like brands can tell a more
authentic story, and people can buy into it as
a result. Yeah, absolutely. And I think with
the sustainability thing you're saying about
the sort of natural clean beauty movement, things
like the clean beauty movement is often propelled
by brands themselves. And a lot of it When from
doing this course and before for my own research
and my years of reporting Sometimes I see brands
marketing and their language and the copy they
use is not correct. It's scientifically It's
not correct and they might be saying things like
all natural is better But there's no evidence
of that. And then you have things like the clean
beauty movement where there's an implication
that other brands that aren't considered clean
are dirty, which also does a disservice to how
strict it is to bring a product to market and
it be allowed to be sold on shop shelves. That
is not a week or short journey. There are so
many tests we have to go through. There are so
many things cosmetic scientists and product developers
and packaging and all of that. have to be taken
into consideration. It's months if not years.
It's why you often hear brands say this took
us four or five years to formulate to get the
right wine. And that's not just to say we wanted
to get the perfect consistency, texture, finish.
We wanted the best consumer trial results. That's
an important part of it. But also because what
you can sell in the UK is different to what you
can sell in the US. It's the same with like Korea
and Japan. With Korea, for example, we know there's
lots of lovely, sophisticated, beautiful SBF
formulas that aren't allowed to be sold in the
US. So US consumers don't have that access, but
the FDA in the US play an important role in making
sure like what they feel is best for their market
and their region. So I think it's very easy for
brands if they're not educated enough. And I
think founders have a lot of responsibility to
be educated that you could end up being part
of that misinformation sort of cycle. And you
don't want to be associated as a brand that doesn't
actually know what you're talking about as we
know science develops. And I think if you're
a brand, you shouldn't attach yourself too closely
to things like that unless you have the ability
to back it up and explain yourself thoroughly
and work within the beauty industry to be consistent,
to be thorough, to be meeting all these sort
of expectations of consumer needs, but also behind
the scenes of formulating needs and the requirements
that are needed in the market. Definitely. And
I think this, you know, there's a lot of demonizing
of certain ingredients. So sort of silicons,
for example, but not all silicons are the same.
So yeah, you can get some quote unquote bad silicons
that might sort of have all these kind of qualities
that people are attributing to them, but then
you get sort of good kinds of silicons that don't
weigh down the hair and things like that and
suffocate your skin. So I feel like, yeah, that
people assume that ingredients, there's only
kind of one, you know, it's one size fits all
approach, which I think is, yeah, really damaging,
I think. And it also kind of, it pressures people
to spend money that they don't have, which I
think there's an ethical reason as well. Like,
you know, you can buy a drugstore shampoo that
might have silicons in it, or conditioner that
might have silicons in it, it's not going to
wreck your hair necessarily, as the way that
these kind of more premium brands are making
out. So I feel like there's kind of that dishonesty
element. And then also I was going to say parabens,
obviously, there's loads of conversations happening
around around that. But what these brands fail
to mention is that preservatives like parabens
are just so crucial. Otherwise, the product would
go mouldy, which is even worse than, you know,
through in the 40s when we discovered them and
found a way to use them. And it's such an important
role in preventing mould growing on your moisturiser.
If you think of a tub of moisturiser, you're
opening it, you're exposing it to the air, and
then you are putting your fingers in and out
of it. And I think The business of fashion a
few years ago did a really great article on how
beauty has a mold problem. And it looked at brands
like COSA and things like that, where consumers
were documenting on TikTok and Instagram, how
they were seeing mold in their products. And
a lot of that was because they're these clean
beauty brands that don't use preservatives and
demonize them, like you say. But actually, if
you're not using sort of traditional preservatives,
what are you doing to preserve the product? because
that's really important, too. And that affects
the shelf life of your product. It affects the
color of your product. It affects how long you
can use it for. And I think the word toxic is
also thrown about far too much. I think it's
used to say about the smallest things are toxic
or carcinogenic or things like that. And you
see a lot in the supplement side of things about
how certain supplements will flush out the toxins
in your body. And I think that's literally the
function of the kidneys. your body is designed
to flush out actual toxins, your foundation or
your moisturizer is not going to be toxic. It
has so many strict rules before it can be allowed
onto shop shelves to ensure that they're safe
for consumers. And I think it's almost insulting
if you're a brand to say, we don't use these
ingredients because they're toxic. And I think
often when we talk about toxicity, you very rarely
hear it referred to as dosage, which go hand
in hand. So your foundation is not safe. If you
drank your foundation and you drank the whole
30ml bottle, it might be very well because it's
not an ingestible product, but that doesn't mean
it's not safe to put on your skin. Yeah, I mean,
water can be toxic if you drink too much of it,
you can kill yourself. So, you know, there's
there's a lot to be said for um yeah just having
some kind of restraint when when when sort of
making these claims because like you say some
of them are just so um outlandish i mean what
are some of the biggest kind of um misconceptions
you've come across when it comes to kind of clean
beauty and natural ingredients now that you've
got that sort of um like knowledge and you've
sort of done those those sort of in -depth studies
into the way products are formulated i do think
Clean beauty has a lot to answer for in how it
has peddled misinformation in the industry. And
I think, really, when we look at it, when brands
refer to themselves as clean, they're implying
that other brands that aren't as clean as them
are dirty. And it goes back to that, you can't
just put any product on the shelves and sell
it to a customer. There are so many things that
go into making a product or formulating. part
of the problem is that it's very difficult as
a brand to communicate that to consumers because
you don't have that much time to grab a consumer's
attention. You might have a few seconds on a
TikTok, you might have a minute on an Instagram
and that's not enough to go through all the steps
you as a brand are taking to formulate products
that are safe but also how the industry works
and how You can't have just unsafe products.
It's why you don't see sort of, you only ever
see things like handmade soaps and sort of handmade
lip balms, things like that are like market stalls
and things. You're not seeing them on the shelves
at Boots because they're not been tested. You
can even, you could make a lovely soap in your
kitchen sink, but that doesn't mean it's a great
product. And I think one of the big misconceptions
is that clean or natural equals product efficacy.
And it doesn't, it doesn't speak to brands performance,
a product's performance. And I think One of the
bigger problems with marketing claims and a lot
of work that you've been doing with Smart Beauty
is the language that we use with consumers. Sometimes
that's the only, that's the first introduction
or the entryway for consumers to your brand.
And if that is not up to scratch, if that is
not clear and accurate, it can still be fun and
interesting and engaging. But if you are not
coming at it with a great basis in fact, you
could be misleading customers and then you're
encouraging them to use products they don't need
or you're suggesting that they need this product
when in fact not every product is for everyone,
not every product should be for everyone. There's
a reason we have like different needs for our
skin and why an oily skin might not react well
to shea butter in the way that a dry skin could.
No, for sure. I mean, I don't know if you, this
is a bit of an extreme example, but I don't know
if you saw the Netflix series Apple Cider Vinegar
that's been on about the, this sort of bogus
wellness influencer, but it's made a point in
general about how the kind of, how toxic this
kind of wellness conversation has got that people
were drinking juice instead of going to doctors
for their cancer and that. um one of the other
influences she was genuine but unfortunately
and it was based on a true story she sadly lost
her life because she went on this juicing cleanse
instead of getting the medical help that she
needed um obviously that's a very extreme example
to the beauty history but I feel like there's
kind of um parallels that you can draw from that
when talking about natural versus synthetic um
and then there's the world of green chemistry
that I think not enough people are paying attention
to that you know science does have its place
and lab -grown ingredients as long as they're
safe and sustainable um you know should be totally
be talked about and included in the conversation
as opposed to just we just need to use essential
oils and that's it that's kind of there's a lot
of essential oils that are not good for you 100
% yeah where if a product grows out the ground
it's good for you because it's plant -deriving
it's vegan and you're like well actually there's
a lot more involved with that so like things
like if you ingest too much essential some essential
oils can be really dangerous for you or you shouldn't
eat like I think isn't it correct that if you're
pregnant there are some essential oils? When
I was pregnant I actually had an aromatherapy
client and I couldn't use any of the products
because you know because it wasn't suitable for
me so so yes a hundred percent it's That's another
example of how clever marketing copy has been
used, paired with misinformation. Essential oils
suggest that they're like, you need them, you
only need them, you don't need anything else.
But we also know that there are some amazing,
good quality, high -performing ingredients like
retinol. which has been very widely tested, very
widely studied, very widely agreed that it is
the gold standard of anti -aging. If you're looking
for acne, help with acne scarring, retinol is
a great one. Vitamin C is fantastic at brightening,
but we also know vitamin C is a very volatile
ingredient. You can't, not every vitamin C is
going to work for you. And there's so many different
ways to create a formula using vitamin C. And
I think it's confusing enough consumers to navigate
an oversaturated market, but it's a real job
responsibility of the brands to make sure what
they're saying is not only solving a consumer
problem, but is also accurate. And yes, I think
I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.
No, definitely. And isn't retinol like pretty
much the only clinically proven ingredient when
it comes to and for like improving the appearance
of your skin and doing actually what it says
as opposed to the more anecdotal evidence that
surrounds other ingredients. Yeah, absolutely.
And one of the biggest things with retinol is
it demonstrates how important education is from
brands. You need to be educating customers on
how to correctly use retinol, retinoldehyde,
retinoic acid, whichever form you use it in.
You cannot just go straight in and use the strongest
version. You cannot, if you've never used retinol
before, use it every day. We know there's going
to be some minimal at best irritation. We know
it makes you more susceptible to sun damage.
So you need to make sure you're using sun cream.
And I think brands need to be speaking to their
consumers and potential consumers with that in
mind that you need to educate your customers
on your products. You cannot just say, this is
great. This is amazing. This works for everyone.
Please buy it. an outbreak of skin sense, like
skin sensitivity, hasn't there? Because I think
people are using so many abrasive treatments
and not really understanding how to use them,
like with the introduction of acid toners, for
example, and these one, these ingredient led
serums that you're designed to kind of mix and
match and be your own kind of a formulator in
a way. And as a result, I think people are kind
of stripping away the skin barrier and now they're
dealing with sensitivity. Do you think we're
kind of moving away from that now and that more
brands are sort of taking more responsibility?
I think so. And I think a few years ago, I remember
during the COVID pandemic and just before exfoliating
with acids was so aggressively pushed by brands
and now those same brands are focused on skin
barrier repairing products. counteract the damage
done by over exfoliating. And I do think I definitely
agree with what you said about brands, say like
The Ordinary or The Inkey List, who very much
rely on the ingredient names to form the product
names. And I think that does encourage people
to play chemists. Sometimes you can get into
a lot of trouble there because people want to
feel like they're getting the most out of their
products. But they also, I think sometimes there's
a fun element of mixing and matching. But if
you don't have that basis of education as a consumer,
which I don't think there should be, I don't
think the honours should be on the consumer,
I think it should be on the brands to educate
rather than consumers themselves. And I think
it's very easy to use products that can counteract
each other. For example, like retinol and vitamin
C, you shouldn't use that in the same routine.
You should use retinol in the evening, vitamin
C is much better off using in the morning. No,
it makes complete sense. Vitamin C protects and
brightens retinol is a treatment which is great
for if it gives you any irritation that's much
safer to use in the evening because it's not
going to disrupt how your makeup sits or you
have a bit more time for it to absorb before
you apply the rest of your products. But I definitely
agree with what you said about it does encourage
you to play chemist. And I think that's where
you can run into problems. And then I do think
it's ironic now that brands that encourage like
the use of acid toners and sort of everyday exfoliation
and now pushing products which treat those issues.
On a reverse the effects that they cause with
their products. Yeah. And it's sometimes it's
the slightly frustrating side of the beauty industry
is you see brands sort of create a problem and
then sell the solution. which is not exclusive
to beauty, we see that across lots of industries,
but I think it's why education is key because
if you're over exfoliating that can lead to a
whole wealth of issues, you could have a much
more increased sensitivity, you could end up
needing like help from a dermatologist which
we know are hard to access, there are long huge
waiting lines for the NHS, you could wait two
years for a dermatologist, we also know that
private dermatologists are very expensive, so
you can really do a lot of damage to your skin
with topical products if you use them in the
wrong way. Definitely. And then you said that
earlier how brands don't have much time to kind
of communicate these things to the consumer.
So what do you think the solution is if there
is one, because there is that problem of they're
trying to get people's attention, but also they
need to give them all the facts. Exactly. Yeah,
I think so. For example, I think One, a couple
brands have done this really well. Bioma, for
example, on its packaging, it lists the sort
of core ingredients in the inky list. And the
main one in the in an inky list, the ingredients
you see listed on the packaging are any ingredients
over 1 % within the formula. And they will say
things like hyaluronic acid is hydrating, shea
butter is a conditioning agent. And another ingredient
might be a thickener to make the product more
viscous. And then they also have a list of steps
of where this product sits in your routine. Is
it for cleansing? Is it for toning? Is it for
moisturizing? Or is it for protecting? Protect
meaning SPF. And that's a really good way is
if you're the customer looking at the product,
you immediately get all this information that
you can read. And the same thing with the Inkey
List. On the interior of their packaging, they
break down the ingredients in the in the product,
why they work, who they're for, who they will
work for, and who they will not work for. And
small steps like that, where you can really utilize
your product packaging as an education tool for
your consumers. I think it's a fantastic way
of doing it. But then I also think... Brands
like Skin Rocks, for example, Caroline Hirons
we know has been in the skincare industry for
years and years. She uses her TikTok and Instagram
and the brand social media strategy is very much
has her front and center. So when she launches
a product. she is front and center explaining
why she's created it, why she thinks it's worth
it, how to apply it, package the deep dive on
why they package it the way they have. And I
think that's a great way because as a consumer,
you'll then you feel like you have this direct
access to a brand founder who knows their stuff.
And whether or not you like Caroline Harrens
or not, or Skin Rocks appeals to you or not,
you're still a bit more informed about the brand
than you are if you didn't have that. And I think
that's a great way of utilizing sort of a public
figure founder Or like Bioma and Inkeyless, utilising
your packaging as a tool for education. Yeah,
those are some really great examples. And I think
with a lot of brand founders, there is that pressure
to kind of be the face or ambassador of your
brand, as opposed to just a figurehead. So I
think having kind of that kind of certification
and knowledge and doing those kinds of studies
that you've done, I think is vital in that respect
when you're creating content for your customers
and saying, well, actually, you know, this is
you know, this is the real deal. I actually do
know what goes in my products and how they work.
Just to sort of create that sort of level of
reassurance that I think a lot of customers nowadays
need. Yeah, I also think if you're you don't
I think if you say something like Caroline Hirons,
her being so visible and present and feeling
accessible to people, she responds to people
in the comments, for example. You can get direct
feedback from her. She does lots of Q &A, so
you can ask her direct questions. Things like
that make you feel like, one, it's a consumer
you're being listened to, but also this person
knows what they're talking about or is an expert
in a certain area of skincare and cares about
the consumer. It doesn't just feel like a CEO
trying to make a quick buck off the market, which
I also think is very important. No, and I'm a
huge fan of Caroline. I think it's her professional
reputation that's on the line as well. So she
wouldn't put her name to anything that I think
would not match up with industry standards and
what people expect, that level of transparency
that people have come to expect from her. What
ingredients and formulations are you most excited
about in looking at your job as a trend forecaster?
What's really kind of jumped out at you in the
last... few months and what do you think is set
to be big? I think biotech and beauty is a really
interesting area. And it's a big area of innovation.
It's new and exciting. There's a brand called
Rio, which was created by a former beauty journalist
Joanna Elna. And she has studied a lot in Chinese
medicine after leaving journalism and has now
created this beautiful brand. It's a small curated
line. There's a cleanser, a skin broth serum,
an eye cream, and flannels, which are fantastic
flannels, by the way. But she has worked with
a company called Debu, which is a biotech lab
backed by L 'Oreal. And they have utilized in
their new eye cream this ingredient, which is
the first to market, first of its kind called
DHK3. And it's a triple hydroxy flavonoid derived
from plants. And they've basically isolated it
in its most potent form and used it in the eye
cream to create this really beautiful balmy gel
formula, which is great for skin barrier repair,
which we were talking about before. and it's
a really interesting use of biotech in a luxurious
but accessible way. You can see it in store in
Liberty and you can buy online but it's sort
of if you buy the eye cream you are able to access
this amazing wealth of research which has been
years in the making to work out dhk3 which is
a really high performing ingredient that's better
than sort of your average of basic hyaluronic
acid, for example, which is an effective ingredient
but also has been around a very long time and
is not the be all and end all of hydration. There's
lots of other ways you can hydrate your skin.
Yeah, and I've heard it can actually dehydrate
your skin as well if you don't use it. Yeah,
exactly. Again, it goes back to education, like
consumers don't realise if you're using it in
a very dry environment, your hyaluronic acid
serum is not going to be as effective as if it's
in a moist environment, which we often hear it
recommended to dampen your skin first. So little
things like that. And I think speaking to the
CEO of Debut at the eye creams launch a few weeks
ago, his name's Joshua. He was saying how there
are so many ways that this technology can be
used. And I asked, is it possible to use this
sort of technology to create a budget product?
Because Reoam is a beautiful luxury brand, but
it is luxury. So the price point is not going
to appeal to everyone. And he said, yep, there's
so many ways you can use it to make your ingredients
more effective. You can make the sourcing of
ingredients a much more lab based. You're not
actually pulling the plant from the ground. So
there is a sustainability. benefit there as well
and I think that's quite exciting because it
makes biotech sounds really almost like dystopian
and futuristic but it can actually be quite accessible
within beauty and I think that's quite interesting.
I also think there are The use of AI is quite
exciting. For example, last year, I spent months
working on a report for stylists about AI and
beauty and how it's pioneering innovation. And
there's a company I spoke to called The Good
Face Project. And the CEO Ivers spent hours talking
about its AI machine, which he calls Cara. And
it works alongside cosmetic scientists and product
developers to help them streamline processes
within the business. For example, if you're a
business with a sustainability manifesto, that
by 2030, you want to get rid of a certain list
of ingredients to be more sustainable. Yeah.
The Good Face project uses its AI to help product
developers and cosmetic scientists skim through
scientific papers and read through research on
ingredients and pull together in minutes ingredients
that will work just as well. can make sure they
hit the manifesto without a team of cosmetic
scientists having to sit in a room and read through
something. And it can do it in I think it's 13
minutes instead of what could be months and months
of work. And obviously, you still need human
involvement, you still need that human eyes on
it, and you need the expertise of cosmetic scientists.
But tools like that can be really helpful in
discovering new and exciting ingredients that
we might not know about yet, but in a couple
years time could be in a lot of the serums we're
using, in moisturisers we're using, in cleansers.
So I think there's lots of room for exciting
innovation. And while I think it's good to have
a healthy scepticism towards AI, and I don't
think it should be used to replace humans at
all. No, I see it as a powerful system. Exactly,
yeah. And that can be a really useful tool for
cosmetic formulating. Definitely, especially
in terms of sustainability as well, because I
think it can help kind of move the needle and
make the industry as a whole a bit more sustainable
without, like you say, people having to sift
through thousands of research papers in order
to find those kind of perfect ingredients. And
going back to biotech, I think that that's kind
of a lovely example of how the natural world
and then also science and technology can... be
utilized in tandem rather than just saying, well,
just use natural products and, you know, but
that, you know, because I think it shows that
how technology is kind of influencing the beauty
industry, but in the sense that these ingredients
are just not just effective, but also safe and
sustainable. Yeah. And when we talk about sustainability,
I think sometimes we think about like, oh, recyclable
packaging or plastic free, but within the sustainability
conversation is also the welfare of the workers
who might be you're forcing your ingredients
from. For example, shea butter. We know a lot
of African countries create that and it's grown
there. Are those workers being looked after?
Are they being paid fairly? Is there a transparent
supply chain? And I think there's loads of different
methods and approaches of being sustainable that
is not just ingredient -led. No. Ingredients
are not just, we use this plant -derived ingredient.
It's who is picking that ingredient? If we're
taking it from the ground, Are we replacing it?
Is it replenishing? Is it renewable? Or sometimes
in a lab it's actually more sustainable because
you're not taking from the environment, you're
creating nothing. You're not disrupting biodiversity
with aggressive farming and causing deforestation
for example. Exactly, and the hair care brand
Daveners does an excellent job at that. They
are based in Italy and they are family run, but
they do a lot of work within regenerative farming.
So they spend a lot of time educating their farmers
on how the ingredients that they're picking from
their farms and growing on their farms are used,
how they can use more renewable sources, how
they can create a better environment for these
to grow. The farmers are well looked after on
the bottle of every product you say, it will
tell you which farm was created on and whose
farm it is. And that's a great way of keeping
transparent about the ingredients, but while
also trying to be sustainable, eco -friendly,
and making real changes rather than just saying
we're cutting out all plastic. Yeah. alternatives
like glass for example and you see I think sustainability
is an area where there's lots of problematic
language and the way it's managed. It's basically
like recycled plastic but that doesn't sort of
solve the problem it doesn't close the loop because
yeah it's not it can't be kind of quote unquote
perfectly recycled can it because you still need
kind of more plastic to keep the thing going.
Exactly well you see sort of products that say
they're recyclable but the lid is not. For example,
on sort of pump product like cleansers, very
difficult. Sometimes they're sealed on, you can't
separate them to recycle the bottle. Sometimes
you can't recycle the pump at all because it
has too much plastic in it. That can't be, that's
not biodegradable. It can get very messy and
there are so many different ways to be sustainable
beyond just recycling a bottle. And on that note,
what do you think about certification? So sort
of governing bodies, like B Corp certification,
for example, because there's been a lot of chatter
I've noticed recently about the sort of integrity
of some of these companies, especially because
they make they stand to make a profit. I mean,
they're their businesses, basically. So when
somebody sort of, you know, gets certified, you
know, they have to pay, companies need to pay
to be certified. So it's in their interests.
to sort of give out this certification. I mean,
have you kind of, do you have any thoughts on
that? Do you think it's still a good idea for
brands to be kind of certified by a specific
governing body? Yes and no, I think, for example,
BCOP, I know they have quite a rigorous examination
criteria for the award at BCOP. But I also think,
like we were saying, there's different levels
of sustainability. So you can be, say you're
a sustainable brand, but do the absolute bare
minimum and try and use a less wasteful form
of plastic, but you're still using plastic. Yeah.
And I think, like you said, you can use, you
can be associated with these, which can help
because then consumers then recognize it. And
as these companies build their profile, B Corp
is now a much bigger and more widely understood
by consumers than it was, say, four years ago.
But I also think there's lots of fantastic brands
doing great work. who are small, for example,
they can't afford to pay these accreditations.
And so that does also cut them out of the conversation.
And you think that there is a hard line to tie
between, well, the companies such as BCOP need
to make money to continue with research and their
marketing and putting out that this is how they
examine products and this is how they award brands.
But then you've got smaller brands at the end
of the scale who can't access that accreditation,
which could help them. put them on the map more.
So I think it can be quite a tricky line to toe
for brands. Yeah, for sure. And with the studies
that you undertook, obviously it sort of encompassed
so many different categories in the beauty industry.
So from like skincare and oral care. Do you think
there are any kind of overlooked categories or
sort of gaps in the market that you think have
huge innovation potential at the moment? I think
one overlooked market is the mature beauty consumer.
There are some brands doing fantastic work. For
example, Sarah Creel, who's the former CEO of
Victoria Beckham Beauty. She left in 2022 to
launch her own brand Sarah Creel in the US. It's
not available in the UK yet, annoyingly, but
it is for a 40 plus consumer and it is focused
on making products for an older consumer with
older skin needs who doesn't want a full coverage
foundation, wants something lighter, but wants
something hydrating enough in their foundation,
for example, to not sink into fine lines. And
then we've seen sort of Skin Rocks doing a great
job with that, Westman Atelier as well. And I
think often Gen Z and Gen Alpha, I guess, is
the next one. It's such a big focus for brands
that I think older consumers get forgotten about,
who often have more money to spend on brands,
but are more fussed with what they want and more
willing to spend on luxury. And I think one thing
I would love to see within that, from brands
overall, is if you're launching a product that's
got an anti -aging focus, use someone with fine
lines and wrinkles in your marketing campaigns.
Don't use a 21 year old model just to sell us
Advanced Night Repair from Estee Lauder, for
example, which is a fantastic product, but it
is for older skin. No, if I see an airbrushed
20 year old staring out at me, that's not going
to tell me anything about what the product could
do. And then also you've got things like if you
are launching a spot, product or breakout product
for acne prone skin, show people with breakouts,
show people with acne in your product imagery.
Don't just show someone with perfect skin, because
that's someone with acne. If I see that, that
doesn't tell me anything about your product's
performance. I think it's these older brands
speaking to an older consumer really well, like
Sarah Creel, that are doing a really great job
at sort of capitalizing on that underserved air
of the market, but there's still a huge demand
for product. There are lots, there's lots of
people, men, women, everyone in between, who
are willing to spend on products if they work
for them, rather than sort of the way Gen Z approaches
things where it's sort of like trying and testing
and mixing and matching and using four different
products for their lip color. Exactly. I think
there's a lot from there. I also think something
I'm seeing recently is more expansion within
the hard water, solving the hard water issue.
So we know in London and Oxford, for example,
and especially the south of England, hard water.
is much worse than it is in other parts of the
country. And hard water has an effect on your
hair health. It's not just your lime scale in
your bathroom and the water pressure. We know
it can be very drying for hair. We know it can
affect how well your color lasts if you get color
treatments. Like I, for example, get highlights.
I find color doesn't last in my hair as well.
And when I've spoken to my hairdresser, she said
she's from New Zealand. She said in New Zealand
and Australia, because of the difference in the
water pressure and how they have softer water,
you can get a much better color that will last
a lot longer. that's partly just environmental
but there's also now brands launching products
or counteract that like Hello Clean and like
people like that and Acton Acre that have these
hard water focused products and I think that's
solving a consumer need that's only going to
become more prevalent and I think we're all about
trying to get our hair to look as good as possible
and using masks and treatments but if the water
you're washing your hair under is causing damage
to your hair Exactly. I'm doing all of that good
work. Exactly. And no amount of hair mask is
going to fix that. But there's things like shower
head filters, which I'm testing at the minute.
They're a great way to sort of counteract that.
And they are partly wellness. They're going to
improve your shower experience. We need to shower
every day. They're an easy day -to -day product,
but they can still be sort of really innovative
with their technology. And then you've also got
like shampoos and treatments and things like
that to counteract hard water damage. So I think
that's quite an interesting category. And then
lastly, I would say sort of makeup packaging.
I think Danessa Myricks, I would say is at the
forefront of this. Last year, she launched a
Groundworks palette, which is a large eyeshadow
and complexion. palette but the pans are magnetic
and removable and you can condense it down to
a smaller palette using these cleverly attached
magnetic panels within the eyeshadow palette.
So you can take a eight shade palette and create
it into two or four that you can put in your
handbag and you've got your whole makeup routine
in your handbag. Things like that, like packaging,
I think is really a really key area where we
can see a lot of innovation. And it's sort of
the first thing you see as a customer. And it
can be the first thing that gets you interested.
So I think I'd like to see more things like that.
Because we talk a lot about makeup on the go.
But I think realistically, I'm not putting foundation
on on the go. I'm not applying the go. I'm applying
lip balm, I might bring a powder to touch up.
Exactly. No, I'm all about packaging. Packaging
is a big part of the decision making process
for me, I have to say, not just about the product.
Obviously, I want the product to work and to
be good. But yeah, some nice packaging that it's
kind of like a status symbol, isn't it? And packaging,
like the course I did with the Society of Cosmetic
Scientists, they cover packaging very in depth
within it, because packaging is so key to how
a product performs. If a product is too viscous,
it can't be in a It needs to be in a tub that
you can put your hand into and scoop out product.
If you have a more, a thinner, watery based product,
a tube is probably better or a pump where you
control the dosage. And how a product performs
also is reliant on the packaging, not just the
formula inside. I think sometimes that can be
difficult. I don't think that's always communicated
as well to consumers. It's sort of like, oh,
this, I don't understand why it's like this or
why couldn't they have put it in a pot and much
rather it, but actually it might not work as
well. It might be a lot harder to use. That's
the thing. It's a really important part when
you're formulating a product is what is it housed
in and how does that address a consumer need
as much as the formula that's inside it. And
that's why I think more and more of us are going
towards kind of water -free products because
sadly, if a product's got water in it, you need
plastic because it's not gonna then leak. as
you know, there aren't many kind of non plastic
alternatives that can hold a water, you know,
a water, a liquid product as well. So it could
be just like not just changing the packaging,
but the types of products that are being out
there. Like substrate, there's a brand called
Substract, which uses, it's all like solid products.
So it's free from water. And again, if you also
have water, you need a preservative. So if you
use a water -free product that's another way
you can cut out preservatives if that's a concern
for you while still getting effective product
and not demonizing effective preservatives that
are required in water -based products. It's sort
of a bit of a vicious cycle but subtracting these
amazing like solid cleansing balms in these wooden
casing packaging they're really beautiful really
lovely and that's a great way of sort of being
a bit more sustainable in your routine, but still
getting all the benefits of a cleansing balm
that effectively removes your makeup the same
way it would if it was a package in a plastic
jar. No, for sure. I just can't, I don't know
about you, I just can't get on board with solid
products. I don't know, as a consumer, I like
a sort of a pump hand soap rather than like,
you know, a bar of soap that's just going to
go cakey and nasty on the corner of the sink.
I mean... The problem is that if you are making
a solid product, we know there needs to be more
oils, more waxes to make it solid. And it's solidified
and it's chilled and then it remains solid. But
you also, like I personally don't love using
a solid bar of soap because it's messy, because
then you need to get a soap dish. And then all
these dirty marks around it. And I find that
as a user experience, I don't find that as clean
or as tidy or as neat. Yeah, it feels less hygienic,
doesn't it in a way? Even though that's a good
way to cut out to use less water in your routine,
we know the big issue within sustainability,
not just within beauty at all. But it is sort
of like, sustainability is quite a tricky one,
because you also want to meet a user's needs,
you want it to be a nice user experience worthwhile
to spend your money on. while also hitting all
the sustainability criteria. So I do think that's
quite tricky for brands to get right. Definitely
like a shampoo bar as well. That's fine if you've
got kind of shoulder length, fine hair. But for
me, I have waist length textured hair. Like a
shampoo bar is not going to do it. It's not going
to cut it for me. Sustainability, particularly
in hair care is not as great as doesn't seem
to be making as many strides within inclusivity
as say like makeup does. Like a shampoo bar is
not going to work if you have 4C afro hair. that's
the thing well you might need a lot more you
need a lot more product we know they we know
that sort of that hair type needs a lot more
light conditioning and it has a much more thorough
washing process i can just use any basic shampoo
because i have caucasian straight fine hair and
i'll probably be fine but i don't think when
it comes to sustainability i don't think inclusivity
is often as much of a focus no like skincare
and makeup no that's a really good point and
i think that's something that I think a lot of
people miss out in the sustainability conversation.
What's the one piece of advice that you would
give to beauty brand founders who want to become
kind of more fluent in cosmetic science? If they
don't have time to kind of undertake the sort
of more formal training or do the sort of courses
that you've taken, what would be sort of something
that you would suggest they do in the meantime?
If they can't do undertake formal training or
they're unable to do like the SES courses that
I did, There are so many other avenues where
you can learn more about cosmetic science. For
example, read, read, read. As a journalist, I
have to read constantly to be up to date on what's
happening. And there are so many resources like
Cosmetics Business do an excellent coverage of
ingredients with their Pure Beauty magazine.
Websites like Glossy or The Industry or Beauty
Independent do fantastic reporting on brands
that are using emerging ingredients, emerging
tools like AI and how they're being used to source
new ingredients, new packaging developments,
etc. And I also think it's important to embrace
the beauty community. For example, on TikTok,
there's an American duo called the Lipstick Lesbians.
Oh, I follow them on Instagram. I'm obsessed
with them. Fantastic. And they have just launched
Let's Learn Beauty. It's their own cosmetic science
course. And it's for anyone. So a beauty enthusiast,
a founder, an influencer, a journalist. And it
covers why products are the way they are, how
they're packaged, what it means, what you can
expect from them. difficulties in formulating
those products. And there's so there's loads
of resources available. And one thing I would
say about the course I did is it's app based,
so I could do it anytime I wanted within a year,
I could do it, you could do it from your phone
if you wanted. It's a really great way to fit
into a very busy lifestyle. And I also think
there's a brilliant podcast like the Eco World
podcast is fantastic. I think this, I think it's
also well worth following cosmetic formulators.
on their social channels that have built a social
following. For example, Dr. Michelle Wong from
Lab Muffin or Jen Novakovich from the Eco Well,
who are speaking to brands, to consumers who
are helping make complicated science digestible.
And I think that's a really great resource to
sort of keep on your radar at all times. No,
I think it's so important given the amount of
misinformation that's out there. Louise, thank
you so much for joining me. It's been really
lovely. I could chat about this all day with
you, to be honest. Like limited on time, but
thank you so much for joining me. And yeah, hopefully.
have you back on at some stage again soon, but
looking forward to reading some more of your
reports and articles. I'll include your Instagram
handle so people that want to follow you, they
can keep up to date on your latest reports and
things like that. But yeah, thank you so much,
it was lovely chatting with you. Thank you so
much for having me. I hope you enjoyed that episode.
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