1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,860 Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist 2 00:00:17,860 --> 00:00:23,060 and founder of Copilot branding agency Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to create your 3 00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:33,320 brand voice and craft the story behind it. Hello and welcome. Now normally with guests 4 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:39,680 I take some time to do some research and find out a little bit more about them before I 5 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:45,760 do my intro but for this guest I don't need to do any of that because I have known her 6 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:54,300 since for as long as I've been in the industry. So Deborah Johnson is an incredible PR that 7 00:00:54,300 --> 00:01:00,140 I basically grew up with when I started out. So when you're a journalist, when you're a 8 00:01:00,140 --> 00:01:07,740 young journalist as I was, you have PRs that you get to know and who are maybe also starting 9 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:13,480 out in their careers and you kind of grow up in the industry together and Deborah is one 10 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:19,780 such person. I consider her not just a long time colleague but a very dear friend and 11 00:01:19,780 --> 00:01:26,620 she is one of the best in the business I'd say when it comes to beauty PR. She worked 12 00:01:26,620 --> 00:01:33,300 at Pure PR for a number of years. I believe it was about eight years that she was there 13 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:38,060 she might tell me off for getting it wrong so I will put in the show notes if it was 14 00:01:38,060 --> 00:01:44,860 a different length of time but she was there for a long time basically and she was a protege 15 00:01:44,860 --> 00:01:51,020 of Pure PR's founder Kelly Marks who I interviewed a few months back and you can go back and 16 00:01:51,020 --> 00:01:56,660 listen to that episode and she goes into raptures about Deborah, she knows how to connect with 17 00:01:56,660 --> 00:02:02,460 journalists, she knows about beauty, she also runs a hair salon with her mum when she's 18 00:02:02,460 --> 00:02:07,820 not doing her PR, she's a lady of many talents and wears lots of different hats. So she set 19 00:02:07,820 --> 00:02:15,060 up her own consultancy a few years ago, Deborah Johnson consultancy where she offers not just 20 00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:23,540 PR services but also brand consultancy and various other levels of expertise that you 21 00:02:23,540 --> 00:02:27,820 can get in touch with her if that's something that you're interested in. She recently hosted 22 00:02:27,820 --> 00:02:34,420 an event with the boutique called the Mayfair edit talking about luxury beauty when it comes 23 00:02:34,420 --> 00:02:40,100 to black consumers, how that space is evolving and what it needs to do to change. So that's 24 00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:46,060 going to be the topic of our discussion today. What I will say about Deborah, the only thing 25 00:02:46,060 --> 00:02:52,020 is that she does not blow her trumpet loudly enough which I'm hoping that she will remedy 26 00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:59,700 and hopefully this podcast will help rectify that because yes she is so incredible and I 27 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:05,940 cannot recommend her enough so really looking forward to chatting with her and I hope you 28 00:03:05,940 --> 00:03:13,820 enjoy our discussion. 29 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:19,860 So hi Deborah, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast. Firstly obviously I know a lot 30 00:03:19,860 --> 00:03:24,860 about your career background but for those who don't can you just tell us a little bit 31 00:03:24,860 --> 00:03:31,300 about your journey in the beauty industry and how it got you to where you are now. Firstly 32 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:36,140 Vy, thank you for inviting me on, I really appreciate it and just seeing all your work 33 00:03:36,140 --> 00:03:39,500 that you're doing and being such a strong voice through the beauty industry yourself 34 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:47,940 I was absolutely honoured for you to ask me. So my journey, I've been in the industry 35 00:03:47,940 --> 00:03:56,140 about 17 years now, 11 of which were spent in agencies so from interning up until being 36 00:03:56,140 --> 00:04:01,300 a Count Director and then the last six years I've been a freelance PR and brand manager 37 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:07,900 specialising in working with independent brands and founders. You worked for the amazing Kelly 38 00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:13,860 Marks at Pure PR, that's where we met. That was my sort of like stomping ground where I 39 00:04:13,860 --> 00:04:18,060 really got to cut my teeth in the industry, it was a great agency to work with and work 40 00:04:18,060 --> 00:04:24,260 for. I don't think I could have stayed or as far as passion in the industry, it wasn't 41 00:04:24,260 --> 00:04:29,060 for agency like Pure. They gave a lot of autonomy to me and a lot of creative freedom and I 42 00:04:29,060 --> 00:04:33,580 got the chance to learn first hand getting really stuck in and so many various aspects 43 00:04:33,580 --> 00:04:41,540 of PR. I often say I'm not like, I don't think I'm your atypical beauty PR per se and for 44 00:04:41,540 --> 00:04:47,340 me Pure was an agency that had such a rich texture of different individuals there that 45 00:04:47,340 --> 00:04:52,260 I don't think I could have got at home or at ease anywhere else. So yeah I credit Pure 46 00:04:52,260 --> 00:05:00,860 Kelly Marks car award and also Tanya Bard for helping me be where I am today. So yeah 47 00:05:00,860 --> 00:05:04,380 shout out to all three of those ladies. They're amazing. I think there's a lot to be said 48 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:08,660 for a company that just allows you to be yourself because then you don't have to carry the extra 49 00:05:08,660 --> 00:05:13,180 emotional burden of trying to kind of fit into this monoculture. Most definitely I think 50 00:05:13,180 --> 00:05:20,980 it's one of those situations where a lot of respect and trust was put on the team, individual 51 00:05:20,980 --> 00:05:27,700 members from like juniors up onto seniors to contribute you know because everyone's perspective 52 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:31,860 is different and value. So I thought that was really, I really, really loved that but 53 00:05:31,860 --> 00:05:35,700 also a lot of guidance was given. I think what they say is great respect and what is 54 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:40,500 that saying in Spider-Man and great power comes great responsibility. So you're giving 55 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:45,940 power away but nurtured but also taught how to be responsible with that power. If that 56 00:05:45,940 --> 00:05:46,940 makes sense. 57 00:05:46,940 --> 00:05:51,900 Well that's brilliant and I think what I because we've got grew up in the industry together 58 00:05:51,900 --> 00:05:56,580 so I think I gravitated towards you because you had such a unique perspective on things 59 00:05:56,580 --> 00:06:04,900 and you were an outspoken voice in the industry and obviously recently you led a panel talk 60 00:06:04,900 --> 00:06:09,620 for British Beauty Week talking about the role of black consumers in the luxury beauty 61 00:06:09,620 --> 00:06:15,060 space. So yeah I'd love to sort of find out more about why this topic was so important 62 00:06:15,060 --> 00:06:16,060 to you. 63 00:06:16,060 --> 00:06:21,420 Yeah I've had a panel for a few weeks I did it in collaboration with Edith Maypair which 64 00:06:21,420 --> 00:06:27,540 is a store in the heart of Maypair and I thought the conversation was often overlooked despite 65 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:31,420 its significance you know when I first started out in the industry I rarely saw black faces 66 00:06:31,420 --> 00:06:36,540 in the market with a case of luxury and luxury beauty and it really jarred me in a way. You 67 00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:41,700 see like for me black consumers have been long time key drivers of cultural influence 68 00:06:41,700 --> 00:06:45,940 across industries particularly in beauty. However contributions and their unique needs 69 00:06:45,940 --> 00:06:51,180 have historically been marginalised or underrepresented especially in the luxury sector 70 00:06:51,180 --> 00:06:54,500 and I've had conversations with people in the past in the industry where which has really 71 00:06:54,500 --> 00:06:59,740 kind of like floored me things. Conversations such as like saying that because the black 72 00:06:59,740 --> 00:07:04,980 population in the UK is so small it's not essentially financially viable or central to 73 00:07:04,980 --> 00:07:09,380 market to them or with retailers who said they just don't know how to market to black 74 00:07:09,380 --> 00:07:14,860 consumers and like. Wow. To me it's just not that inclusivity it's about equity you know 75 00:07:14,860 --> 00:07:19,300 acknowledgement and opportunity. The spelling power of black consumer in beauty industry 76 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:23,980 in general is immense meaning we have statistics and data that supports that I mean and I'm 77 00:07:23,980 --> 00:07:28,140 not just talking about luxury I'm talking about in general and the preferences can often 78 00:07:28,140 --> 00:07:32,700 set at home for I feel for wider beauty trends yet luxury brands sometimes don't adequately 79 00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:37,740 recognise this or celebrate its demographic so they're not highlighting their role in 80 00:07:37,740 --> 00:07:42,220 culture brands to not only diversify and they're also generally invest in representation at 81 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:47,420 every level from product development to advertising. That's the key thing isn't it? Yeah. I don't 82 00:07:47,420 --> 00:07:51,020 think most people that the decision makers representing who they're trying to target. 83 00:07:51,020 --> 00:07:55,260 Exactly another thing I wanted to kind of like because I once had this event and had 84 00:07:55,260 --> 00:08:01,580 this conversation starving to the subject as to what exactly is luxury for black consumer 85 00:08:01,580 --> 00:08:05,660 and do a definition to marry with the way the industry views luxury generally because 86 00:08:05,660 --> 00:08:09,100 I feel it's funny because like the word luxury for me I sometimes feel in this day and age 87 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:14,780 is misused and overused. Definitely. Like luxury used generally to know exclusivity in terms 88 00:08:14,780 --> 00:08:20,860 of like access by economic position but today I feel really applicable is it really applicable 89 00:08:20,860 --> 00:08:26,540 when it's only luxury brands who are marketing to the masses so yeah it was quite intriguing to me 90 00:08:26,540 --> 00:08:32,540 but I guess like one key takeaway that I got from the event and I always like I tend to like do a lot 91 00:08:32,540 --> 00:08:39,020 of sort of consumer research and directly speaking to the general public not just those of them beauty 92 00:08:39,020 --> 00:08:45,660 I do I get to talk to the staff that I own I also encourage brands that I work have to do focus groups 93 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:50,860 and so one key takeaway that I got from the event may generally kind of like lands with me is that 94 00:08:50,860 --> 00:08:54,780 luxury black women tends to be aligned with having something that's been traded with them in mind 95 00:08:54,780 --> 00:09:01,100 you know so it's been made for them specifically and I can see why that is particularly when you 96 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:07,740 haven't had that in the past where you had to fit into what has been created as a post and your 97 00:09:07,740 --> 00:09:12,140 individual needs have been ignored or not been considered so I thought that was um when I kind 98 00:09:12,140 --> 00:09:17,740 of look at luxury for the black consumer specifically and kind of seeing that one of the kind of levels 99 00:09:17,740 --> 00:09:24,540 of what luxury is it's like okay this has been created with my image in mind so yeah yeah um so I 100 00:09:24,540 --> 00:09:28,460 obviously would have loved to attend just to sort of point out that I had my own panel talk that night 101 00:09:28,460 --> 00:09:35,820 otherwise I would have been right front row like cheering you on but what were the other main 102 00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:41,420 talking points was the consensus that the future of luxury beauty for black consumers is to have 103 00:09:41,420 --> 00:09:46,700 kind of more black owned brands at the helm or do you think that there is a responsibility for 104 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:52,380 sort of the big luxury brands to um sort of be more inclusive and to adapt their like messaging 105 00:09:53,260 --> 00:09:59,660 and product offering accordingly. Luxury comes to like catering to the black consumer I feel luxury 106 00:09:59,660 --> 00:10:05,660 brands are doing it well in a certain way you know increased product offerings is one of them 107 00:10:05,660 --> 00:10:09,820 you know so you've got women the makeup sector like many luxury brands have expanded shade ranges 108 00:10:09,820 --> 00:10:16,140 of foundations and concedes etc also in terms of like marketing there's been a lot of work uptick 109 00:10:16,140 --> 00:10:20,460 and campaigns featuring black models and ambassadors however it's sometimes it can feel 110 00:10:20,460 --> 00:10:26,780 retokenistic or inconsistent if that is not embedded into the brand's DNA at the core 111 00:10:26,780 --> 00:10:32,140 um and that was one of the things that came up was it's like okay you have these black people in your 112 00:10:32,140 --> 00:10:37,980 sort of advertising campaigns in your marketing but where else does diversity kind of like um 113 00:10:37,980 --> 00:10:45,340 intertwine into your um sort of company culture and your plan long term um another thing that I 114 00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:52,060 thought was quite interesting is how in the west specifically luxury is always marketed for a 115 00:10:52,060 --> 00:10:57,260 Eurocentric lens you know not paying attention to the heritage or cultural differences of wider 116 00:10:57,260 --> 00:11:02,460 races and ethnicities and this can really set us home I feel for how luxury can be presented 117 00:11:02,460 --> 00:11:08,300 perceived or consumed consumed in a certain way and that was another thing that was um that came 118 00:11:08,300 --> 00:11:14,620 up it was the idea that luxury and its presentation shouldn't be a one size fits all thing you know 119 00:11:14,620 --> 00:11:20,220 it's not like in order for this video to be luxury it needs to look like this it needs to be consumed 120 00:11:20,220 --> 00:11:28,300 like this and I am a brand actually I feel I saw recently do a campaign which I think is phenomenal 121 00:11:28,300 --> 00:11:35,500 in presenting luxury but also paying homage and respect to culture as Orbea they've recently 122 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:40,300 released the campaign with this Kenyan artist I think her name is Bandi I saw it it looked incredible 123 00:11:42,220 --> 00:11:47,100 I mean like it was a joy to see it pays homage to another culture in a really expansive way 124 00:11:47,100 --> 00:11:53,980 and it's not just like oh we're just gonna do um hair brand we're just gonna do like 125 00:11:53,980 --> 00:12:00,380 black or African hairstyles no it was this beautiful video campaign that was shot with her 126 00:12:00,940 --> 00:12:05,260 really kind of like telling the history of the of cornrows and their sort of cultural 127 00:12:05,260 --> 00:12:11,420 significance and historical significance but also away from that they had her design a their 128 00:12:11,420 --> 00:12:19,580 Christmas holiday season packaging which is um influenced by her culture as well and I was just 129 00:12:19,580 --> 00:12:27,660 on every level so beautiful you've brought in a black collaborator to do it you have educated on 130 00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:34,540 the beauty aspect which is the hair and then the commercial aspect is bringing that person's kind of 131 00:12:34,540 --> 00:12:40,460 heritage and culture to the masses via the gifting the holiday campaign products you know like 132 00:12:40,460 --> 00:12:44,460 luxury brands can occasionally join inspiration for black culture just generally like in product 133 00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:49,260 design or marketing but if it's often done about authentic engagement you know with black 134 00:12:49,260 --> 00:12:54,940 communities and this can lead to things like cultural appropriation and feel like really 135 00:12:54,940 --> 00:12:59,980 just tokenistic and not a sort of general collaboration or celebration I think the Orbe 136 00:12:59,980 --> 00:13:04,860 the Orbe campaign completely is reversed that celebrates it collaborates and doesn't feel 137 00:13:04,860 --> 00:13:10,220 tokenistic at all and I know you probably answered a bit of this and what you've just said but 138 00:13:10,220 --> 00:13:14,780 just to kind of emphasize what is it that brands can take away from this like what can other brands 139 00:13:14,780 --> 00:13:20,860 do better using Orbe as an example and I know you mentioned a little bit but just to kind of 140 00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:27,020 outline what the main takeaways from that should be. So Deepa don't just think okay we're going to 141 00:13:27,020 --> 00:13:33,180 launching this product so we're going to make sure we do a campaign that just shows this space 142 00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:38,940 you know like the fact that they collaborated with a black artist slash professional the fact that 143 00:13:38,940 --> 00:13:44,380 they made it a commercial product that was going to sell and reach more people beyond just a digital 144 00:13:44,380 --> 00:13:50,700 screen you know the fact that like they brought in the cultural significance and richness of an 145 00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:57,260 aspect of black beauty you know it felt multi-leveled it felt really kind of profoundly fought out 146 00:13:57,260 --> 00:14:02,060 yeah so I think those like looking at those different brands can do inspiration for that 147 00:14:02,060 --> 00:14:06,780 making it a multi-level collaboration and celebration and another thing that was quite 148 00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:12,700 interesting I feel like in terms of black consumers and how luxury brands currently cater for them that 149 00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:19,740 I always find is a barrier slash hurdle from consumers and also from black brands I have 150 00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:25,740 worked or worked with is like retail I can never say the word retail accessibility you know high 151 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:30,860 and beat retail because I always carry products or brands that prioritize black consumers you know 152 00:14:30,860 --> 00:14:35,420 and this limits the visibility and the visibility in the luxury space and more often than not where 153 00:14:35,420 --> 00:14:41,740 it comes to brands that are created with black consumers in mind they are created by black 154 00:14:41,740 --> 00:14:49,180 founders you know black founders that tend to have to bootstrap or are not quite at the or 155 00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:55,820 nowhere near the level of larger sort of brands so with luxury retail spaces you could at the level 156 00:14:55,820 --> 00:15:01,820 playing thought isn't even it's not equal and I feel like from a retail conspiracy point of view 157 00:15:01,820 --> 00:15:08,300 readers need to have genuine support of black and brands you know and I think this looks like not 158 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:15,260 expecting independence as well as black and brown spares who perform to deliver the same margins 159 00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:21,260 as a brand that is larger you know they haven't got the same marketing spend but also I love the 160 00:15:21,260 --> 00:15:25,580 recent interview to Rhea Cartwright you know and she also points out something 161 00:15:26,140 --> 00:15:35,020 significant is about that a lot of buyers in the UK are mostly white so there are blind spots there 162 00:15:35,020 --> 00:15:42,860 they're not necessarily seeing the purpose or the value in brands that provide products that are not 163 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:49,500 for them so that also provides a barrier to the retail conspiracy point of view because yes online 164 00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:56,380 is great but also bricks and mortar is equally as valuable and I tend to find a lot of consumers 165 00:15:56,380 --> 00:16:02,140 like a certain demographic population still does like to shop on in bricks and mortar you know 166 00:16:02,140 --> 00:16:12,220 so making sure retail opportunities within luxury spaces are available for brands that serve a black 167 00:16:12,220 --> 00:16:18,540 consumer particularly black home brands instead of black consumer is very true yeah and to go back 168 00:16:18,540 --> 00:16:24,460 to what you said about this all common argument that gets kind of trotted out is that oh we need 169 00:16:24,460 --> 00:16:29,980 to prioritize you know the kind of big name brands that are going to make us a lot of money and the 170 00:16:29,980 --> 00:16:35,100 black consumer it's a small section of the market so it's not going to be as profitable for us if we 171 00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:39,820 carry these kind of black owned luxury brands and what would your response be to that? I'm not like 172 00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:45,500 it's one of those things where and really um because like as far as I just like having a general kind 173 00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:51,580 of layer of land as a beauty retail you see the same brands in every retailer yeah so what is your 174 00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:58,380 competitive edge where is your point of difference really if I can get this product from the X Y and 175 00:16:58,380 --> 00:17:05,580 Z you know you are diluting opportunity for sale so therefore why not just like quite a point of 176 00:17:05,580 --> 00:17:11,580 difference where you truly offer something that no one else is offering and particularly for a 177 00:17:11,580 --> 00:17:17,180 market such as black consumers who we know have significant spending power there's that piece of 178 00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:21,740 data which I do challenge that data now where it's like I think it's like black consumers spend six or 179 00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:29,740 eight times more on beauty than uh than uh they white gown parts yeah and I challenge that data a 180 00:17:29,740 --> 00:17:35,580 question of reason being because I think that this is for the US I would love to understand 181 00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:42,300 data for the UK and then also what are they spending is it like they're spending little on 182 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:50,220 high price items or are they spending more on lower price items we know what I mean and is that 183 00:17:50,220 --> 00:17:56,220 because they have to shop around there and get more stuff because their needs haven't been catered to 184 00:17:56,860 --> 00:18:02,380 um so I think there is like there is an opportunity for a retailer to really kind of delve into that 185 00:18:02,380 --> 00:18:08,780 data to create a strategy that really really speak understands the black consumer and speaks to them 186 00:18:08,780 --> 00:18:15,420 and provides significant value to them because I feel like a lot of retailers for a moment it's a 187 00:18:15,420 --> 00:18:20,220 lot of the sameness I mean and it's not just it's not just around like I feel like racy but I feel 188 00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:26,940 it's around um age diversity as well I'm going to be honest I think for a campaign for a rebrand of 189 00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:33,660 an online retailer and and I laugh when I saw it because in all the visuals I don't think I was a 190 00:18:33,660 --> 00:18:40,540 single person over the age of possibly 30 in those in that ad campaign that was like rolled out out of 191 00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:46,460 home and on their digital and I was just like again opportunities is really just something different 192 00:18:46,460 --> 00:18:53,580 and you just didn't went same for same and I find that really disheartening where is the creativity 193 00:18:53,580 --> 00:18:58,540 or the kind of like the daring in our industry anymore and I think that applies to how you market 194 00:18:58,540 --> 00:19:04,220 and sort of different racial group but also how you market yourself to different age demographics 195 00:19:04,220 --> 00:19:09,340 you know because I think there are sometimes an often overlooked consumer not just black consumers 196 00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:13,180 who thought that the entries and speak to them I've forgotten about them I think that's 197 00:19:13,180 --> 00:19:18,540 is very sort of pointed in the luxury beauty space I mean before you got into beauty as a career 198 00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:24,220 like how did when you were shopping um like luxury beauty how did that those brands make you feel 199 00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:33,740 as a black consumer I mean I've been doing this 17 years I'm 38 now and when I was in my 20s I wasn't 200 00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:40,140 able to shop for luxury no no and when you were like just even looking at their marketing or 201 00:19:40,140 --> 00:19:44,300 be selling you the dream that you think oh maybe one day but when I'm old when old enough I can like 202 00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:51,100 I think yeah as I mentioned before like I think I never saw major luxury retailers speaking directly 203 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:57,340 to me because in marketing there was never anyone that looked like me firstly so it was one of those 204 00:19:57,340 --> 00:20:03,260 things where I think subconsciously it kind of lends its ideas like okay maybe this is not for me 205 00:20:03,260 --> 00:20:10,380 but then also it's a way in which it was marketed it's like oh and it's a thing what if I because 206 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:18,140 it's presented in a certain way like I need to assimilate and I should like aspire to present 207 00:20:18,140 --> 00:20:23,980 myself in that way I guess as a younger person I was more impressionable as to impressionable 208 00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:35,420 as to feeling the need to fit a mold to be seen as successful desirable etc but reflecting now 209 00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:39,900 looking back and sort of sitting here now speaking to you that sort of marketing doesn't appeal to me 210 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:47,180 at all it's just like when you sort of come into a point where you are confident and have come into 211 00:20:47,180 --> 00:20:53,660 acceptance as to who you are that sort of marketing doesn't marry with how I see myself oh how I want 212 00:20:53,660 --> 00:21:00,860 to show up that makes sense yeah completely and when we talk about luxury beauty and what makes a 213 00:21:00,860 --> 00:21:07,260 luxury product I mean there is kind of a push now in the industry towards more mastige products so 214 00:21:07,260 --> 00:21:12,460 products that still have the high-end premium formulas but are a bit more accessible in price 215 00:21:12,460 --> 00:21:17,260 point do you think we should be pushing for more of those types of products as opposed to staying in 216 00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:23,340 the luxury base which to be honest is very elitist and quite exclusionary in lots of ways yeah I think 217 00:21:23,340 --> 00:21:28,860 like as I mentioned I thought the the lines between what is luxury and what is not luxury 218 00:21:29,420 --> 00:21:34,860 have become really blurred particularly from a beauty perspective I think of traditionally luxury 219 00:21:34,860 --> 00:21:44,620 sort of like brands such as Chanel your Gucci's your Dior etc and they are marketing to the masses 220 00:21:44,620 --> 00:21:52,940 you know and so I feel like there needs to be much more economic considerations put through from 221 00:21:52,940 --> 00:21:59,180 brands who want to have mass appeal so price point shouldn't be the only kind of thing that 222 00:21:59,180 --> 00:22:03,260 denotes you as luxury it should be quality of product when it comes to because we're living 223 00:22:03,260 --> 00:22:10,460 a time where economically people are struggling you know the whole elitist exclusivity by price 224 00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:16,380 point is sort of like rhetoric fills a bit redundant out of touch for the vast majority of 225 00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:23,340 the population the western population so the brand can still deliver on quality but make their products 226 00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:28,700 more accessible for everyone that's only going to be positive you know and I would like to see a 227 00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:36,700 world where like luxury is not seen as like just a thing that is denoted by price you know it's like 228 00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:43,420 everyone deserves an aspect of what luxury feels like to them and it shouldn't be they shouldn't 229 00:22:43,420 --> 00:22:50,860 be excluded because of what they can and cannot afford but then also if you as a brand if you want 230 00:22:50,860 --> 00:22:58,940 to be financially successful in this market you need exactly you need to appeal to a wide 231 00:22:58,940 --> 00:23:03,660 demographic of those who have socioeconomic sort of differences yeah because you think they're 232 00:23:03,660 --> 00:23:08,700 missing a trick given that you know ironically the luxury sector has less money than the mass 233 00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:15,020 market sector you'd think why aren't they appealing to as many different like demographics as possible 234 00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:20,460 yeah yeah which is kind of baffling in a way yeah it's one of those things why I don't yeah I just 235 00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:26,300 like what's still with the pillar that luxury sits on why do we still need it you know particularly 236 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:32,540 from a beauty perspective like I really would love to just do an interview series of luxury beauty 237 00:23:32,540 --> 00:23:38,300 founders and like be like what makes your brand luxury it would they would say innovation that 238 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:43,980 innovation that informs the price point but in this day and age really I've beaten the most 239 00:23:43,980 --> 00:23:50,380 innovative brands that have the most funding behind them to actually push for innovation 240 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:57,020 actually a mass brand like Boone's Compass never for example they have a lot of science behind them 241 00:23:57,020 --> 00:24:02,860 and a lot of like money invested in research but they have a price point that is relatively accessible 242 00:24:02,860 --> 00:24:10,460 so yeah I don't understand I'm not their customer but like but I understand luxury for those 243 00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:16,380 at well-feezed status thing as well the price point they would say like oh I bought this 700 244 00:24:16,380 --> 00:24:23,260 pound serum because to that demographic that's chump change to them and if a business feels 245 00:24:23,260 --> 00:24:28,220 okay we just want to focus on that demographic even though it is as in the lesser percentile 246 00:24:28,220 --> 00:24:34,700 population then they're enough but why yeah so do you think it's a case that we need to kind of 247 00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:40,220 actually change what what we kind of define as a luxury product do you think that's part of the 248 00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:44,460 the issue yeah I think it's it's one of those things where I would love to like kind of understand 249 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:49,820 more from the general industry what is like what defines a luxury product definitely and just really 250 00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:56,140 really interrogate that because I know what luxury means to me speaking with other women of colour 251 00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:59,660 and I'm actually know and also just want to work out general friends who are not in the industry I 252 00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:04,060 think it's also really important speaking with people who are not in the industry who still 253 00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:11,580 consume beauty what do they perceive as luxury you know like so really using that to really kind of 254 00:25:11,580 --> 00:25:16,780 like set the foundation as to what luxury looks like going forward because I think we'd be surprised 255 00:25:16,780 --> 00:25:23,020 at luxury for the most people is not what we think it is do you think yeah yeah I don't because like 256 00:25:23,020 --> 00:25:27,820 I remember I had a dinner some friends over dinner it got around to the conversation of luxury and 257 00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:31,180 stuff and I was like what do you what perhaps because of the luxury like do you consider the 258 00:25:31,180 --> 00:25:39,580 deorosh now no I know oh really yeah that's interesting women my age um various like ethnicities 259 00:25:39,580 --> 00:25:44,380 and like if I can buy it in boots it's not luxury one of my friends said and I was like okay interesting 260 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:51,500 so it's more about kind of rarity yeah rarity of exclusivity um another thing I actually wanted to 261 00:25:51,500 --> 00:25:57,260 get um to later it was your question was like the idea of like okay you know there's that saying 262 00:25:57,260 --> 00:26:04,220 that money talks wealth whispers I think in that line of thought if you have to scream out that 263 00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:12,940 you're luxury and luxury you're not yeah definitely um it's all about it's that kind of whole quiet 264 00:26:12,940 --> 00:26:18,220 luxury trend isn't it and how you brand yourself and that yeah you want to sort of show that you're 265 00:26:18,220 --> 00:26:24,860 this high quality brand but I'm saying and and what are the and I think it's an it's an individual 266 00:26:24,860 --> 00:26:30,540 thing like for a consumer level as to what they read in that that makes them perceive that as luxury 267 00:26:31,180 --> 00:26:38,220 um but I think it's in essence like a brand that is truly luxurious or luck it doesn't need to 268 00:26:38,220 --> 00:26:43,580 tell it to tell you that they are you just perceive that from it yeah kind of show don't tell kind of 269 00:26:43,580 --> 00:26:48,780 thing um do you think there's like a genuine commitment within the luxury sector to be more 270 00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:54,380 inclusive do you think that brands are trying or do you think that it's still kind of huge blind spot 271 00:26:54,380 --> 00:26:59,420 within our industry at the moment yeah I think brands are trying I think we can't deny there's been 272 00:26:59,420 --> 00:27:04,700 huge drives in the last like 10 or so years um within the luxury sector to 273 00:27:05,820 --> 00:27:11,980 during like black square summer as our friend Carol likes to call it like there was a huge 274 00:27:11,980 --> 00:27:18,140 uptake in brands across the board wanting to speak to an appeal to the black consumer and then 275 00:27:18,140 --> 00:27:22,940 also had data that had been kind of lost 10 years about the spending power of the black consumer 276 00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:29,340 the black pound and brands cottoned onto that so they started seeing the sort of black consumer as a 277 00:27:29,340 --> 00:27:37,740 viable customer base for them and so marketing changed advertising changed and the intention I 278 00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:45,020 feel sometimes has been there but understanding that true change takes time um understanding that in 279 00:27:45,020 --> 00:27:51,180 order to capture that customer base that can often be a bit mistrusting may have economic 280 00:27:51,180 --> 00:27:57,820 limitations um will take a while for you to build up that customer base so it can't just be a click 281 00:27:57,820 --> 00:28:03,420 of fingers bam done and then it does not work after the first campaign you give up no it needs to be 282 00:28:03,420 --> 00:28:08,540 the commitment if you're making it needs to be long term it has to have a long term view and 283 00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:14,700 potential also another thing I feel like is it's like in order for you to genuinely show your 284 00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:20,220 commitment to sort of diversity and luxury beauty make sure the people you're hiring who are decision 285 00:28:20,220 --> 00:28:27,740 maker percent yeah as diverse as possible you know like they if you're not doing that then you 286 00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:31,660 haven't really got a commitment to it it's just tokenistic it's just you're doing it for the money 287 00:28:31,660 --> 00:28:38,380 wrap money grab true the true kind of commitment shows hiring diverse team members from those 288 00:28:38,380 --> 00:28:46,460 up all the way down and understanding that this is a long game you know it's like it going back to 289 00:28:46,460 --> 00:28:53,500 that comment that I um had had a couple of years ago when someone had said like it's not an essential 290 00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:58,700 for luxury brands to market not black consumers because they've got such a small percentage 291 00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:02,940 it's just like I get that we ask we I think we make up less than five percent of the UK population 292 00:29:02,940 --> 00:29:09,500 but there is still spending power than that than that five percent and if a commitment looks like 293 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:16,460 not just seeing it as a commercial money grab it looks like you know what we see value in you so 294 00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:20,620 therefore we're going to put the time and effort understand the long time strategic potential 295 00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:28,140 of engaging and catering to you yeah and I think if companies are at a level where they can't 296 00:29:28,140 --> 00:29:32,300 afford maybe to like that have the capacity to take on new team members they could do what a 297 00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:39,100 rebate did and work with artists and content creators you know hire consultants consultants 298 00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:43,340 yeah no and the thing is like if you're going to like Deborah for example you know that's like me 299 00:29:44,540 --> 00:29:49,580 and the thing is like if you're going to make these hires be sure you're going to listen to them 300 00:29:49,580 --> 00:29:55,580 and what their perspective is um because like there's no point in hiring an expert or someone 301 00:29:55,580 --> 00:30:00,940 who's versed in the field if what they say does not marry with what you want to hear that is just 302 00:30:00,940 --> 00:30:07,260 a quick list it's a waste of money also away from the consultants do deep diving research on your 303 00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:13,980 on the customer base that you want to attract don't just like look at numbers from blanket surveys 304 00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:20,940 or statistics that aren't very nuanced enough to understand do both groups and like kind of like 305 00:30:20,940 --> 00:30:25,740 um yeah just focus groups or community-based sessions with these don't allow to fully understand 306 00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:33,100 not just the quantifiable but a qualitative insight as to what they can give you yeah and this takes 307 00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:38,940 time and effort so be really willing to commit to your kind of like your desire for diversity 308 00:30:38,940 --> 00:30:45,740 and putting the time and effort in to hire diverse sort of staff members or consultants and speak to 309 00:30:45,740 --> 00:30:49,980 the customer base you want to serve in a really meaningful way what do you think that the mass 310 00:30:49,980 --> 00:30:55,100 market is doing at the moment that you think luxury brands can learn from in that respect um 311 00:30:56,860 --> 00:31:02,460 I mean do you think that the mass market is kind of more ahead in in that way um just because they 312 00:31:02,460 --> 00:31:07,340 are you know maybe a smaller indie brands that are a bit more dynamic and have a bit more kind of 313 00:31:07,340 --> 00:31:14,220 room to um yeah be innovative in that in that sense and be more inclusive and yeah I think mass 314 00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:19,260 market and any brand often can make inclusivity a foundational part part of the entity just 315 00:31:19,260 --> 00:31:25,020 generally because um it's not to see in the afterthought I mean Ben T is another prime example 316 00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:30,300 everyone talks plenty out as being really pioneering I don't it's pioneer you can be a pioneer when 317 00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:37,020 you have loads of money behind you but and it gets lauded for the amount of like shade variety 318 00:31:37,020 --> 00:31:43,420 lords with but I know of so many black owned brands or general brands that already were doing 319 00:31:43,420 --> 00:31:47,980 those shade ranges but not all of them and they couldn't do it all as one because essentially 320 00:31:47,980 --> 00:31:53,500 haven't got the funding um like but like I think with mass and any brands who put a dense of 321 00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:57,660 diversity as a foundational part of their brand are really really keep are really really great and 322 00:31:57,660 --> 00:32:02,300 like luxury brands can learn from that now a brand I feel does it really really well as topicals you 323 00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:07,180 know with massing of products at center on diversity in the outset you know it speaks to 324 00:32:07,180 --> 00:32:14,060 everyone you know it bows everyone so in a way is diversity is not really a thing because from the 325 00:32:14,060 --> 00:32:20,940 jump everyone's included um so like yeah I think luxury brands can like definitely sort of move 326 00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:25,820 beyond surface level inclusion like you know it's such a tokenistic campaigns or a single shade 327 00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:31,900 expansion they need to be versed into DNA like ensuring that black customers exist in like 328 00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:38,540 prioritise also another thing is like I think mass and indie brands do quite well is again I can't 329 00:32:38,540 --> 00:32:42,380 I think it speaks to the idea of elitism but like mass and indie brand are full foster strong 330 00:32:42,380 --> 00:32:49,660 connection of their communities in their development phases and ongoing you know they take custody of 331 00:32:49,660 --> 00:32:55,020 feedback as an integral part of their sort of brand development they collaborate with influencers 332 00:32:55,020 --> 00:32:59,980 that are accessible and relatable as opposed to those that feel just unattainable and celebrities 333 00:33:00,460 --> 00:33:05,900 um they tend to kind of like work with more diverse professionals and curators in the black 334 00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:10,460 community and this ensures like really authentic relationships that resonate with their customers 335 00:33:10,460 --> 00:33:15,820 um for me like luxury brands need to partner with more black makeup artists you know hair stylists 336 00:33:15,820 --> 00:33:23,580 don't colleges to co-create brands and products and facial content that speaks to black consumers 337 00:33:23,580 --> 00:33:29,100 and it shows also that they amplify black creators and voices so that shows that it's a part of their 338 00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:36,300 DNA you know um also I feel like indie brands emerge can emerge from within black communities 339 00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:41,420 the black community itself so like their commitment always I feel in addressing inequalities is 340 00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:47,580 feels authentic because they are coming from being the change that they want to see they tend to yeah 341 00:33:47,580 --> 00:33:51,660 they know what it's like to feel underserved and they know what actually needs to be done to 342 00:33:51,660 --> 00:33:58,140 is that and they tend to like I find like working with black founders um they hire diverse teams 343 00:33:58,140 --> 00:34:03,500 they tend to be more likely to invest in black owned supply chains you know like really actively 344 00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:08,940 championing equity in their practices and like for me luxury brands need to really practically like 345 00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:13,980 invest in equity focused initiatives like partly black owned ingredient suppliers 346 00:34:13,980 --> 00:34:19,500 barely you know funding schools black chemists you know or creating mental programs for black 347 00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:24,540 entrepreneurs in the beauty industry these are ways in which these luxury brands will say okay you 348 00:34:24,540 --> 00:34:30,700 know what we're not just about the consumer spent the pound we want to get we're also about supporting 349 00:34:30,700 --> 00:34:36,300 the legacy of black professionalism within this industry yeah all the way through the supply chain 350 00:34:37,820 --> 00:34:41,980 do you think that celebrities could be the you know you talk about like maybe don't just 351 00:34:41,980 --> 00:34:47,340 part with the celebrity but do you think that they could be kind of the future of um of luxury 352 00:34:47,340 --> 00:34:52,060 beauty actually reaching the kind of black consumer because like things like fenty beauty 353 00:34:52,060 --> 00:34:56,620 I mean I don't know I sort of see that as a luxury brand I mean it was you know carried in like 354 00:34:56,620 --> 00:35:02,540 harpy nickels and I think you know brands are people like Rihanna or like Pat McGrath at the helm 355 00:35:02,540 --> 00:35:09,100 they do you think they've done sort of a little bit to kind of move the needle in that way um yeah 356 00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:14,220 most definitely I don't think that I saw it slowly brands necessarily the future but I can definitely 357 00:35:14,220 --> 00:35:23,420 see how and appreciate how they have really helped solidify the idea that by diversity by 358 00:35:23,420 --> 00:35:28,700 diversified diversity can be a commercially viable thing fenty's a prime example of that you know 359 00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:34,060 it's commercially successful commercially successful brand and their strategy was to be as diverse as 360 00:35:34,060 --> 00:35:38,940 possible so therefore a lot of brands saw that and picked up on it so I think that's a positive 361 00:35:38,940 --> 00:35:44,620 thing and I think with a brand like Pat McGrath Blatt so being able to see that a black founder can 362 00:35:44,620 --> 00:35:51,020 successfully launch a bright brand that will be commercially accessible and successful for everyone 363 00:35:51,020 --> 00:35:55,660 because her product range is for everyone is a positive thing for the industry as a whole 364 00:35:56,220 --> 00:36:01,100 I don't necessarily come to celebrity brands um I feel like they can be a force for good in that 365 00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:05,660 respect you know because you've got that star power and then they're also kind of serving those 366 00:36:05,660 --> 00:36:12,860 overlooked communities as well yeah essentially because they can afford to you know like with like 367 00:36:12,860 --> 00:36:18,300 and also for me I feel like just taking away from luxury conversation for a moment one of the things 368 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:25,980 that's really important to me is economic equity equity you know I particularly want to see our 369 00:36:25,980 --> 00:36:32,540 industry dominated by conglomerates and more often than not when you have a celebrity brand 370 00:36:32,540 --> 00:36:41,500 that is launched it's backed by a huge conglomerate you know and that's the reason why they can come out 371 00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:47,820 so hitting so hard you know I would love to be able to see and I believe that we should be 372 00:36:47,820 --> 00:36:53,340 supporting more independent entrepreneurship um one of the key things that I've noticed over the years 373 00:36:53,340 --> 00:36:59,420 since being in the industry is the emergence of beauty entrepreneurs who have great ideas great 374 00:36:59,420 --> 00:37:06,460 products with effective products um who are self-funding bootstrapping or slowly raising capital 375 00:37:06,460 --> 00:37:11,020 and I think it's important for them to also have an equal opportunity within this market 376 00:37:11,020 --> 00:37:18,460 because for many a reason you know I feel like when something is found alert for me I maybe a bit 377 00:37:18,460 --> 00:37:24,460 misguided in this perspective but I feel as much more fantasy behind it I feel I feel a lot safer 378 00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:29,420 in my purchase decision because I there's not there's not so many murky things to navigate 379 00:37:29,420 --> 00:37:32,700 what's going on behind the scenes of that brand you know yeah there's that human connection and 380 00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:36,620 like you know that they could be active on social media so you can actually talk to them and actually 381 00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:41,180 kind of yeah and also like your questions see them maybe the principal's of how they've 382 00:37:41,180 --> 00:37:44,780 broken the businesses run the brand is built and who they're associated with a lot more clear cut 383 00:37:44,780 --> 00:37:49,820 than say a conglomerate who does this in this country and does that in the other you know for me 384 00:37:49,820 --> 00:37:56,220 like I feel like consumers are becoming a lot more um a lot more kind of like my sort of like 385 00:37:56,220 --> 00:38:04,620 cognizant of ethical practices of businesses and a way in which I stand on this is by wanting to know 386 00:38:04,620 --> 00:38:11,180 clearly who I'm shopping with and it's a lot clearer to understand that when it's independent 387 00:38:11,180 --> 00:38:15,900 founder from my perspective yeah that makes sense and do you think that brand story is important 388 00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:21,900 then in that respect as well like having a strong brand story um a strong brand story is good yeah 389 00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:26,700 I don't necessarily think the brand story needs to send to the founder um I think like there was a 390 00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:31,100 podcast that you did I can't remember who it was with but it was you mentioned about like how 391 00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:35,500 was it podcast or social media thing for that but basically it's only female founders who 392 00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:40,380 are pressure that's making narrative that's actually and it's yeah it's it's so true it's 393 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:46,700 like extra emotional labor that you have to do to female founder and this is like I think it's great 394 00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:49,900 I think it's great because we like to connect with others but I don't think it's essential what is 395 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:55,820 essential is for me as a consumer because we're understanding your brand values why do you do 396 00:38:55,820 --> 00:39:01,980 how you how you produce what you produce and how this connects with me and my needs as a consumer 397 00:39:01,980 --> 00:39:07,020 I don't need to know your if your backstory if you it's about if you want to put your backstory 398 00:39:07,020 --> 00:39:11,340 into your kind of narrative as to why you've launched it's fine but don't feel the need to 399 00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:18,620 constantly be on your social media um giving your all and like yeah creating emotional touch 400 00:39:18,620 --> 00:39:23,420 points with your customers because after a while it can feel really disingenuous 401 00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:28,620 it might be authentic like you can't because it's up when you're trying to be someone you're not 402 00:39:28,620 --> 00:39:35,100 you know um and that eventually pushes you down and it come and it can be read by the observer 403 00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:39,980 you know like you just like who you are so just stay authentic to who you are like if you've got a 404 00:39:39,980 --> 00:39:45,020 strong brand a strong product but let that do the talking for you you know that makes a lot of 405 00:39:45,020 --> 00:39:49,660 sense I mean do you think that black consumers are changing the landscape like rather than 406 00:39:49,660 --> 00:39:53,740 waiting for the industry to to catch up you know catch up with them and change for them 407 00:39:53,740 --> 00:39:57,660 do you think that there are industry innovators within the black community that are kind of 408 00:39:57,660 --> 00:40:03,100 changing the beauty landscape I mean yeah I mean undoubtedly I thought black British consumers have 409 00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:08,300 like a profound cultural influence on just global market trends you know particularly from music 410 00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:13,660 fashion social media and they combine this with like the growing spending power I think they're 411 00:40:13,660 --> 00:40:18,700 in a way kind of poise to redefine what luxury means and this like looks like demanding products 412 00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:23,180 and experiments that really resonate with their identities and values one of the trends that I 413 00:40:23,180 --> 00:40:28,940 feel like has it has been here is here but I think will continue to grow is like luxury products 414 00:40:28,940 --> 00:40:35,180 tailored to melon rich skin and hair textures I think they'll be a certain like premium skincare 415 00:40:35,180 --> 00:40:39,980 and hair care products that's really designed for addressing the needs of black consumers things 416 00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:46,380 like high fermentation, colloid scarring, curl definitions, scalp health etc but like high performance 417 00:40:46,380 --> 00:40:53,740 luxury very formula formulas are negotiable you know for the black consumer you know brands 418 00:40:53,740 --> 00:40:59,500 investing inside of it research, hairs like melon and rich skin, textured hair, exclusive 419 00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:05,100 cutting edge solutions and live in the premium way it's just going to be the standard I feel 420 00:41:05,660 --> 00:41:11,580 that the generation of black consumer coming up it's going to require that brands such as 456 421 00:41:11,580 --> 00:41:18,380 skin do this already and do it really well and also the steam bar as well I feel like they are 422 00:41:18,380 --> 00:41:25,340 at the pinnacle of delivering specific products that are sort of formulated and developed with 423 00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:33,420 sort of like a diverse melanated skin type and curl and a curl texture in mind that's first 424 00:41:33,420 --> 00:41:38,140 and foremost that they've developed for but then from that anyone can use it but like they often 425 00:41:38,140 --> 00:41:43,180 stand 10 turns down about like we have been developed first and foremost for this demographic but 426 00:41:43,820 --> 00:41:48,140 everyone can use it so the 456 skin and the steam bar I think that was the brand I was thinking of 427 00:41:48,140 --> 00:41:51,660 I was like who's that brand that was that oh my you know it's the name of my tongue yeah that's the 428 00:41:51,660 --> 00:41:58,700 one um I think really doing that doing this well also like inclusionary like luxury retail experiences 429 00:41:58,700 --> 00:42:02,860 I feel like it's a trend that we're going to really see coming through like people want to go 430 00:42:02,860 --> 00:42:07,100 offline they don't want to be on social media everyone's sort of fixated brands with like social 431 00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:13,260 media but actually like so people want the offline experiences that brand space experiences like I 432 00:42:13,260 --> 00:42:17,020 thought because I was having I did an interview yesterday one of the thing and we're talking about 433 00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:24,700 AI and tech and all this stuff and I thought about innovation but I think you know what luxury I 434 00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:31,740 feel like going forward is going to be human connection human interaction um and when it comes 435 00:42:31,740 --> 00:42:37,660 in the retail setting I think like there is nothing you can't get better advice or guidance or feel 436 00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:44,940 held to make a consumer purchase better than in a physical retail store but with those of births 437 00:42:44,940 --> 00:42:52,380 to guide you well so they know their stuff their assistance and store stuff but truly are trained 438 00:42:52,380 --> 00:42:58,860 to talk widely about the needs of a wide demographic and that is like it feels like a 439 00:42:58,860 --> 00:43:03,740 concierge service in a way you feel like you're being spoken to uniquely for you and your needs I 440 00:43:03,740 --> 00:43:10,940 feel like that's the edge that comes through really really strongly and a place does it really well 441 00:43:10,940 --> 00:43:16,140 it's a place where they talk with beauty and it may fair so there are beauty and wellness boutique 442 00:43:16,140 --> 00:43:22,140 in Mayfair and you know I put in there a piece of one thing that really astounds me is how knowledgeable 443 00:43:22,140 --> 00:43:29,180 their staff are like jeez I miss going to retailers like I sometimes want to go to general retail 444 00:43:29,180 --> 00:43:34,620 like retailer and I want to sort of like I'll go in for certainly for what I know I need from a 445 00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:41,260 brand I'm already sharp but I'm also open to trying something else so I'll go into like a store 446 00:43:41,260 --> 00:43:47,820 and I will ask about this particular product and the the level of kind of like I feel 447 00:43:47,820 --> 00:43:53,180 knowledge or care that's sometimes given it's just lacking and it's just like well you've just 448 00:43:53,180 --> 00:43:59,340 lost my lost customer there because like I'm not inspired by this purchase but whenever I've been 449 00:43:59,340 --> 00:44:05,420 into Mayfair I feel like their staff knowledge is exceptional you know like forming radiance 450 00:44:05,420 --> 00:44:13,100 to what would work best on my tone on my skin just like I really appreciate the level of training 451 00:44:13,100 --> 00:44:18,540 they go through and that they deliver to their customers and I think like and across like 452 00:44:19,260 --> 00:44:23,340 Abnesi as well I know that it's by speaking to Cheryl the founder and they have a very very very 453 00:44:23,340 --> 00:44:29,180 vast sort of diverse customer base so they like owned as a business yeah Cheryl Riley 454 00:44:29,180 --> 00:44:36,300 Cheryl Riley owns and she's black and she was a founder of Nels and Browls Mayfair and they opened Beauty 455 00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:41,740 Edit a few doors up and they're just like again when I say it's a bit one could say oh it's 456 00:44:41,740 --> 00:44:46,540 luxury because of where it's located in Mayfair but you know what I was saying about like um 457 00:44:46,540 --> 00:44:51,980 wealth whispers doesn't like it's not showy it just like it showed up how it is and it's just 458 00:44:51,980 --> 00:44:56,380 like it's not trying to be anything it just feels like really just like this just feels like a really 459 00:44:56,380 --> 00:45:02,380 beautiful experience all around everything like every touch point feels just a bit different from 460 00:45:02,380 --> 00:45:11,500 what you get elsewhere um yeah so I'd say those are kind of like trends also like for the future 461 00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:16,220 I think like luxury reimagining inclusive and diverse like I think I'd say before like 462 00:45:16,220 --> 00:45:21,500 traditionally Eurocentric and classes and I think classes are nothing that we need to look at here 463 00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:29,100 oh my gosh that's a whole other podcast yeah no like I feel like traditionally like the ideas 464 00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:35,180 was like luxury have been based in Eurocentric ideas and also ideals but I think this is like 465 00:45:35,180 --> 00:45:38,380 from a black consumer perspective and also it's not as a black consumer because like we're more 466 00:45:38,380 --> 00:45:44,940 doing the me talk I did a few weeks in October for the event a really interesting point was made 467 00:45:44,940 --> 00:45:50,620 about women up in the northeast in Manchester or Liverpool specifically who walk around with their 468 00:45:50,620 --> 00:45:56,700 hair and rollers and staffs on and then you have black girls who are walking around with satin bonnets 469 00:45:56,700 --> 00:46:02,300 right and we could look at that and be like oh still working class things that's tacky right 470 00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:08,540 but I've been seeing a lot of like it coming through in hiring campaigns or shoots of fashion 471 00:46:08,540 --> 00:46:14,380 magazines women like that you know so something that was once deemed as like low class and you 472 00:46:14,380 --> 00:46:20,140 don't go out in public like that is now being embraced by high fashion you know and seen as and 473 00:46:20,140 --> 00:46:25,260 being seen as acceptable but like you know acceptable yeah we don't I feel like when it comes to like 474 00:46:25,260 --> 00:46:29,900 McLeod perspective and also from a black group we don't the permission is not required we were 475 00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:38,380 doing it anyway we don't need it to be co-signed um by the elite or by the high echelons to deem it 476 00:46:38,380 --> 00:46:42,620 as acceptable because we because in fact this demonstrates that you come to us you come to 477 00:46:42,620 --> 00:46:50,700 them for inspiration yeah like the notions of what is seen as luxury it's like tattoos and nail art 478 00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:55,980 isn't it it's that great you know now like that's what you know get over and you had Shah bring it 479 00:46:55,980 --> 00:47:01,260 over to the mainstream the west for bar what while now's and then you sort of blop everywhere you know 480 00:47:01,260 --> 00:47:06,300 it's just like I feel like it's the same thing black people define beauty culture hugely as well 481 00:47:06,300 --> 00:47:11,660 as well as well as people as well I think possibly particularly from a fashion level like street wear 482 00:47:11,660 --> 00:47:18,220 you know as a prime example oh my gosh yes yeah is that you know so I feel like the ideas of what is 483 00:47:18,220 --> 00:47:26,220 luxury it's good it's it has been being and we continue being been defined by black culture 484 00:47:26,220 --> 00:47:31,900 and need to show up it's what it's already happening yeah it's happening in a way but I think I'm 485 00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:37,820 going to see like it's quite interesting like the way the what going back again to what luxury is 486 00:47:37,820 --> 00:47:41,180 this sort of challenges the idea of like okay when you have a demographic it's like actually 487 00:47:41,180 --> 00:47:46,300 not there's parts of me that may have been seen as get her ratchet at one time but I now see the 488 00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:53,260 mainstream adopting this and making it luxury so this is now luxury I think how does that feel 489 00:47:53,260 --> 00:47:57,260 how does that feel like from my perspective it makes me just feel like again when I see 490 00:47:57,260 --> 00:48:02,540 where I just like um I don't stand on nothing because I don't stand on anything industry wise 491 00:48:02,540 --> 00:48:07,660 trying to kind of determine my density if you know what I mean yeah but I don't look to anything 492 00:48:07,660 --> 00:48:15,420 that's trend wise or just like group think wise but I need to lean into to be seen as yeah you're 493 00:48:15,420 --> 00:48:21,180 already you you don't need certain like the outward validation yeah external validation 494 00:48:21,180 --> 00:48:28,060 in order to kind of cosine on that like exactly and also because going back to the retail part 495 00:48:28,060 --> 00:48:32,540 I was talking about sort of inclusive luxury retail experiences it's kind of what I was having a 496 00:48:32,540 --> 00:48:37,980 conversation with someone earlier this week um about like and it's quite interesting whenever I 497 00:48:37,980 --> 00:48:42,460 work with brands and stuff and they wanted to they who wanted to enter bricks and mortar 498 00:48:42,460 --> 00:48:48,140 and they want to be in certain retailers um because they see these retailers as being the 499 00:48:48,140 --> 00:48:53,420 high-rational on they have like it's like market awareness it's luxury yard yard yard yard yard 500 00:48:53,420 --> 00:48:58,220 and I was walking to this girl as woman recently and she is watching something that I think is a 501 00:48:58,220 --> 00:49:02,700 really interesting concept and I love it for her and the reason I bring this up is because 502 00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:06,620 when it comes to retail we traditionally sort of thought yourself for years your liberty your 503 00:49:06,620 --> 00:49:14,460 harvionics as retail destinations to go to we go to them we have to assimilate and fit ourselves 504 00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:19,260 into what they consider and where they consider luxury luxury doesn't come to us but this woman 505 00:49:19,260 --> 00:49:24,860 is launching a concept in a location that has a predominantly black population which you wouldn't 506 00:49:24,860 --> 00:49:31,660 necessarily consider as luxury but it is rooted in black culture it has she's done a research yet 507 00:49:31,660 --> 00:49:37,420 it has a wide um cross section of different socioeconomic households from that community in 508 00:49:37,420 --> 00:49:43,500 there and she's launching this concept there and I'm like yes can we stop thinking of luxury places 509 00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:47,900 only being in one place and not within the communities where we exist yeah it's so kind of 510 00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:53,740 London centric isn't it all like central London yeah west London centric as well and I'm just like 511 00:49:53,740 --> 00:49:59,180 I hate going to central London I don't consider it a luxury experience I just have a fucking night 512 00:49:59,180 --> 00:50:05,980 there it's like antithesis of what a luxury experience I want to go central London's by start 513 00:50:05,980 --> 00:50:10,620 but I understand why commercially it makes sense for others but it also goes speak to like okay why 514 00:50:10,620 --> 00:50:17,420 why can't we build our own luxury ideas of luxury in our experiences on our own doorstep so yeah 515 00:50:17,420 --> 00:50:22,300 this that may be a thing um that's kind of why I speak Italian also there's two other 516 00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:28,220 entrepreneurs who are doing something very similar in terms of opening concepts and spaces in areas 517 00:50:28,220 --> 00:50:33,260 that you wouldn't necessarily think they would be and I'm all for that because it's not about just 518 00:50:33,260 --> 00:50:37,500 getting into the luxury space or getting the luxury world to change it's actually about 519 00:50:38,060 --> 00:50:43,500 redefining what luxury is and who are the gatekeepers of that yeah redefining also I just 520 00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:49,100 I focus for a consumer level as well because I think it's quite interesting that um being realistic 521 00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:53,500 like looking at like I was speaking to a brand and looking at the office narcissistics like 522 00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:59,900 black people tend to the general household income of black people is quite low but you still do have 523 00:50:59,900 --> 00:51:06,060 a strong kind of cohort of money black people who have disposable incomes I'm also myself one of them 524 00:51:06,060 --> 00:51:13,020 to be honest I have disposable income I like to buy nice I like to buy things that I consider nice 525 00:51:13,020 --> 00:51:19,340 and but I often find it interesting when um you have black consumers you have money and where they 526 00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:26,300 choose to spend that money it tends to be an established um sort of like legacy brands that are 527 00:51:26,300 --> 00:51:33,260 from a considered like high-end aspirational from a certain way you know like your 528 00:51:33,260 --> 00:51:41,420 jakma is like your kind of like I don't know saline etc and but they don't spend on black owned luxury 529 00:51:41,420 --> 00:51:48,220 brand and I'm like why and it's because essentially we are still looking at these labels as status 530 00:51:48,220 --> 00:51:55,260 symbols and and as I speak to aspire to and in a way we don't see maybe we don't see our offering 531 00:51:55,260 --> 00:52:00,300 smart own community as the same and I really think that that needs to be kind of interrogated and 532 00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:05,820 questioned more and one could say it's because there is not enough awareness or we don't see 533 00:52:05,820 --> 00:52:11,020 these luxury black owned brands around but they're out there it makes it require you doing a bit more 534 00:52:11,020 --> 00:52:16,300 digging but they are out there and they are worth that investment because as I said before it's these 535 00:52:16,300 --> 00:52:22,300 brands are really going to help shape the culture and the future of the beauty industry for us 536 00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:27,260 you're in a real authentic way so it's really important that when you have the money I mean 537 00:52:27,260 --> 00:52:32,300 you can do what you want with your money you know but like if you have the money and your 538 00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:37,820 four ownership equity legacy opportunity maybe question why you're spending that money a bit 539 00:52:37,820 --> 00:52:42,140 more yeah because you have to vote with your feet at the end of the day don't you exactly money 540 00:52:42,140 --> 00:52:47,340 money talks in this app in that way live for sure well thank you so much Deborah for 541 00:52:47,340 --> 00:52:52,060 joining me on the podcast I really appreciate it and I really enjoyed our chat lovely to chat with 542 00:52:52,060 --> 00:52:58,860 you as always looking forward to maybe having you back on in the not so distant future but you 543 00:52:58,860 --> 00:53:16,780 love to it's always good to catch up with you I hope you enjoyed that episode all links will be 544 00:53:16,780 --> 00:53:22,940 in the show notes and feel free to visit smartbeautycreative.com or visit us over on Instagram to find 545 00:53:22,940 --> 00:53:27,420 out more about what we do and if you enjoyed listening please don't forget to rate and review 546 00:53:27,420 --> 00:53:35,260 smart beauty on iTunes 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