Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist
and founder of Copilot branding agency Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to create your
brand voice and craft the story behind it. Hello and welcome. Now normally with guests
I take some time to do some research and find out a little bit more about them before I
do my intro but for this guest I don't need to do any of that because I have known her
since for as long as I've been in the industry. So Deborah Johnson is an incredible PR that
I basically grew up with when I started out. So when you're a journalist, when you're a
young journalist as I was, you have PRs that you get to know and who are maybe also starting
out in their careers and you kind of grow up in the industry together and Deborah is one
such person. I consider her not just a long time colleague but a very dear friend and
she is one of the best in the business I'd say when it comes to beauty PR. She worked
at Pure PR for a number of years. I believe it was about eight years that she was there
she might tell me off for getting it wrong so I will put in the show notes if it was
a different length of time but she was there for a long time basically and she was a protege
of Pure PR's founder Kelly Marks who I interviewed a few months back and you can go back and
listen to that episode and she goes into raptures about Deborah, she knows how to connect with
journalists, she knows about beauty, she also runs a hair salon with her mum when she's
not doing her PR, she's a lady of many talents and wears lots of different hats. So she set
up her own consultancy a few years ago, Deborah Johnson consultancy where she offers not just
PR services but also brand consultancy and various other levels of expertise that you
can get in touch with her if that's something that you're interested in. She recently hosted
an event with the boutique called the Mayfair edit talking about luxury beauty when it comes
to black consumers, how that space is evolving and what it needs to do to change. So that's
going to be the topic of our discussion today. What I will say about Deborah, the only thing
is that she does not blow her trumpet loudly enough which I'm hoping that she will remedy
and hopefully this podcast will help rectify that because yes she is so incredible and I
cannot recommend her enough so really looking forward to chatting with her and I hope you
enjoy our discussion.
So hi Deborah, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast. Firstly obviously I know a lot
about your career background but for those who don't can you just tell us a little bit
about your journey in the beauty industry and how it got you to where you are now. Firstly
Vy, thank you for inviting me on, I really appreciate it and just seeing all your work
that you're doing and being such a strong voice through the beauty industry yourself
I was absolutely honoured for you to ask me. So my journey, I've been in the industry
about 17 years now, 11 of which were spent in agencies so from interning up until being
a Count Director and then the last six years I've been a freelance PR and brand manager
specialising in working with independent brands and founders. You worked for the amazing Kelly
Marks at Pure PR, that's where we met. That was my sort of like stomping ground where I
really got to cut my teeth in the industry, it was a great agency to work with and work
for. I don't think I could have stayed or as far as passion in the industry, it wasn't
for agency like Pure. They gave a lot of autonomy to me and a lot of creative freedom and I
got the chance to learn first hand getting really stuck in and so many various aspects
of PR. I often say I'm not like, I don't think I'm your atypical beauty PR per se and for
me Pure was an agency that had such a rich texture of different individuals there that
I don't think I could have got at home or at ease anywhere else. So yeah I credit Pure
Kelly Marks car award and also Tanya Bard for helping me be where I am today. So yeah
shout out to all three of those ladies. They're amazing. I think there's a lot to be said
for a company that just allows you to be yourself because then you don't have to carry the extra
emotional burden of trying to kind of fit into this monoculture. Most definitely I think
it's one of those situations where a lot of respect and trust was put on the team, individual
members from like juniors up onto seniors to contribute you know because everyone's perspective
is different and value. So I thought that was really, I really, really loved that but
also a lot of guidance was given. I think what they say is great respect and what is
that saying in Spider-Man and great power comes great responsibility. So you're giving
power away but nurtured but also taught how to be responsible with that power. If that
makes sense.
Well that's brilliant and I think what I because we've got grew up in the industry together
so I think I gravitated towards you because you had such a unique perspective on things
and you were an outspoken voice in the industry and obviously recently you led a panel talk
for British Beauty Week talking about the role of black consumers in the luxury beauty
space. So yeah I'd love to sort of find out more about why this topic was so important
to you.
Yeah I've had a panel for a few weeks I did it in collaboration with Edith Maypair which
is a store in the heart of Maypair and I thought the conversation was often overlooked despite
its significance you know when I first started out in the industry I rarely saw black faces
in the market with a case of luxury and luxury beauty and it really jarred me in a way. You
see like for me black consumers have been long time key drivers of cultural influence
across industries particularly in beauty. However contributions and their unique needs
have historically been marginalised or underrepresented especially in the luxury sector
and I've had conversations with people in the past in the industry where which has really
kind of like floored me things. Conversations such as like saying that because the black
population in the UK is so small it's not essentially financially viable or central to
market to them or with retailers who said they just don't know how to market to black
consumers and like. Wow. To me it's just not that inclusivity it's about equity you know
acknowledgement and opportunity. The spelling power of black consumer in beauty industry
in general is immense meaning we have statistics and data that supports that I mean and I'm
not just talking about luxury I'm talking about in general and the preferences can often
set at home for I feel for wider beauty trends yet luxury brands sometimes don't adequately
recognise this or celebrate its demographic so they're not highlighting their role in
culture brands to not only diversify and they're also generally invest in representation at
every level from product development to advertising. That's the key thing isn't it? Yeah. I don't
think most people that the decision makers representing who they're trying to target.
Exactly another thing I wanted to kind of like because I once had this event and had
this conversation starving to the subject as to what exactly is luxury for black consumer
and do a definition to marry with the way the industry views luxury generally because
I feel it's funny because like the word luxury for me I sometimes feel in this day and age
is misused and overused. Definitely. Like luxury used generally to know exclusivity in terms
of like access by economic position but today I feel really applicable is it really applicable
when it's only luxury brands who are marketing to the masses so yeah it was quite intriguing to me
but I guess like one key takeaway that I got from the event and I always like I tend to like do a lot
of sort of consumer research and directly speaking to the general public not just those of them beauty
I do I get to talk to the staff that I own I also encourage brands that I work have to do focus groups
and so one key takeaway that I got from the event may generally kind of like lands with me is that
luxury black women tends to be aligned with having something that's been traded with them in mind
you know so it's been made for them specifically and I can see why that is particularly when you
haven't had that in the past where you had to fit into what has been created as a post and your
individual needs have been ignored or not been considered so I thought that was um when I kind
of look at luxury for the black consumer specifically and kind of seeing that one of the kind of levels
of what luxury is it's like okay this has been created with my image in mind so yeah yeah um so I
obviously would have loved to attend just to sort of point out that I had my own panel talk that night
otherwise I would have been right front row like cheering you on but what were the other main
talking points was the consensus that the future of luxury beauty for black consumers is to have
kind of more black owned brands at the helm or do you think that there is a responsibility for
sort of the big luxury brands to um sort of be more inclusive and to adapt their like messaging
and product offering accordingly. Luxury comes to like catering to the black consumer I feel luxury
brands are doing it well in a certain way you know increased product offerings is one of them
you know so you've got women the makeup sector like many luxury brands have expanded shade ranges
of foundations and concedes etc also in terms of like marketing there's been a lot of work uptick
and campaigns featuring black models and ambassadors however it's sometimes it can feel
retokenistic or inconsistent if that is not embedded into the brand's DNA at the core
um and that was one of the things that came up was it's like okay you have these black people in your
sort of advertising campaigns in your marketing but where else does diversity kind of like um
intertwine into your um sort of company culture and your plan long term um another thing that I
thought was quite interesting is how in the west specifically luxury is always marketed for a
Eurocentric lens you know not paying attention to the heritage or cultural differences of wider
races and ethnicities and this can really set us home I feel for how luxury can be presented
perceived or consumed consumed in a certain way and that was another thing that was um that came
up it was the idea that luxury and its presentation shouldn't be a one size fits all thing you know
it's not like in order for this video to be luxury it needs to look like this it needs to be consumed
like this and I am a brand actually I feel I saw recently do a campaign which I think is phenomenal
in presenting luxury but also paying homage and respect to culture as Orbea they've recently
released the campaign with this Kenyan artist I think her name is Bandi I saw it it looked incredible
I mean like it was a joy to see it pays homage to another culture in a really expansive way
and it's not just like oh we're just gonna do um hair brand we're just gonna do like
black or African hairstyles no it was this beautiful video campaign that was shot with her
really kind of like telling the history of the of cornrows and their sort of cultural
significance and historical significance but also away from that they had her design a their
Christmas holiday season packaging which is um influenced by her culture as well and I was just
on every level so beautiful you've brought in a black collaborator to do it you have educated on
the beauty aspect which is the hair and then the commercial aspect is bringing that person's kind of
heritage and culture to the masses via the gifting the holiday campaign products you know like
luxury brands can occasionally join inspiration for black culture just generally like in product
design or marketing but if it's often done about authentic engagement you know with black
communities and this can lead to things like cultural appropriation and feel like really
just tokenistic and not a sort of general collaboration or celebration I think the Orbe
the Orbe campaign completely is reversed that celebrates it collaborates and doesn't feel
tokenistic at all and I know you probably answered a bit of this and what you've just said but
just to kind of emphasize what is it that brands can take away from this like what can other brands
do better using Orbe as an example and I know you mentioned a little bit but just to kind of
outline what the main takeaways from that should be. So Deepa don't just think okay we're going to
launching this product so we're going to make sure we do a campaign that just shows this space
you know like the fact that they collaborated with a black artist slash professional the fact that
they made it a commercial product that was going to sell and reach more people beyond just a digital
screen you know the fact that like they brought in the cultural significance and richness of an
aspect of black beauty you know it felt multi-leveled it felt really kind of profoundly fought out
yeah so I think those like looking at those different brands can do inspiration for that
making it a multi-level collaboration and celebration and another thing that was quite
interesting I feel like in terms of black consumers and how luxury brands currently cater for them that
I always find is a barrier slash hurdle from consumers and also from black brands I have
worked or worked with is like retail I can never say the word retail accessibility you know high
and beat retail because I always carry products or brands that prioritize black consumers you know
and this limits the visibility and the visibility in the luxury space and more often than not where
it comes to brands that are created with black consumers in mind they are created by black
founders you know black founders that tend to have to bootstrap or are not quite at the or
nowhere near the level of larger sort of brands so with luxury retail spaces you could at the level
playing thought isn't even it's not equal and I feel like from a retail conspiracy point of view
readers need to have genuine support of black and brands you know and I think this looks like not
expecting independence as well as black and brown spares who perform to deliver the same margins
as a brand that is larger you know they haven't got the same marketing spend but also I love the
recent interview to Rhea Cartwright you know and she also points out something
significant is about that a lot of buyers in the UK are mostly white so there are blind spots there
they're not necessarily seeing the purpose or the value in brands that provide products that are not
for them so that also provides a barrier to the retail conspiracy point of view because yes online
is great but also bricks and mortar is equally as valuable and I tend to find a lot of consumers
like a certain demographic population still does like to shop on in bricks and mortar you know
so making sure retail opportunities within luxury spaces are available for brands that serve a black
consumer particularly black home brands instead of black consumer is very true yeah and to go back
to what you said about this all common argument that gets kind of trotted out is that oh we need
to prioritize you know the kind of big name brands that are going to make us a lot of money and the
black consumer it's a small section of the market so it's not going to be as profitable for us if we
carry these kind of black owned luxury brands and what would your response be to that? I'm not like
it's one of those things where and really um because like as far as I just like having a general kind
of layer of land as a beauty retail you see the same brands in every retailer yeah so what is your
competitive edge where is your point of difference really if I can get this product from the X Y and
Z you know you are diluting opportunity for sale so therefore why not just like quite a point of
difference where you truly offer something that no one else is offering and particularly for a
market such as black consumers who we know have significant spending power there's that piece of
data which I do challenge that data now where it's like I think it's like black consumers spend six or
eight times more on beauty than uh than uh they white gown parts yeah and I challenge that data a
question of reason being because I think that this is for the US I would love to understand
data for the UK and then also what are they spending is it like they're spending little on
high price items or are they spending more on lower price items we know what I mean and is that
because they have to shop around there and get more stuff because their needs haven't been catered to
um so I think there is like there is an opportunity for a retailer to really kind of delve into that
data to create a strategy that really really speak understands the black consumer and speaks to them
and provides significant value to them because I feel like a lot of retailers for a moment it's a
lot of the sameness I mean and it's not just it's not just around like I feel like racy but I feel
it's around um age diversity as well I'm going to be honest I think for a campaign for a rebrand of
an online retailer and and I laugh when I saw it because in all the visuals I don't think I was a
single person over the age of possibly 30 in those in that ad campaign that was like rolled out out of
home and on their digital and I was just like again opportunities is really just something different
and you just didn't went same for same and I find that really disheartening where is the creativity
or the kind of like the daring in our industry anymore and I think that applies to how you market
and sort of different racial group but also how you market yourself to different age demographics
you know because I think there are sometimes an often overlooked consumer not just black consumers
who thought that the entries and speak to them I've forgotten about them I think that's
is very sort of pointed in the luxury beauty space I mean before you got into beauty as a career
like how did when you were shopping um like luxury beauty how did that those brands make you feel
as a black consumer I mean I've been doing this 17 years I'm 38 now and when I was in my 20s I wasn't
able to shop for luxury no no and when you were like just even looking at their marketing or
be selling you the dream that you think oh maybe one day but when I'm old when old enough I can like
I think yeah as I mentioned before like I think I never saw major luxury retailers speaking directly
to me because in marketing there was never anyone that looked like me firstly so it was one of those
things where I think subconsciously it kind of lends its ideas like okay maybe this is not for me
but then also it's a way in which it was marketed it's like oh and it's a thing what if I because
it's presented in a certain way like I need to assimilate and I should like aspire to present
myself in that way I guess as a younger person I was more impressionable as to impressionable
as to feeling the need to fit a mold to be seen as successful desirable etc but reflecting now
looking back and sort of sitting here now speaking to you that sort of marketing doesn't appeal to me
at all it's just like when you sort of come into a point where you are confident and have come into
acceptance as to who you are that sort of marketing doesn't marry with how I see myself oh how I want
to show up that makes sense yeah completely and when we talk about luxury beauty and what makes a
luxury product I mean there is kind of a push now in the industry towards more mastige products so
products that still have the high-end premium formulas but are a bit more accessible in price
point do you think we should be pushing for more of those types of products as opposed to staying in
the luxury base which to be honest is very elitist and quite exclusionary in lots of ways yeah I think
like as I mentioned I thought the the lines between what is luxury and what is not luxury
have become really blurred particularly from a beauty perspective I think of traditionally luxury
sort of like brands such as Chanel your Gucci's your Dior etc and they are marketing to the masses
you know and so I feel like there needs to be much more economic considerations put through from
brands who want to have mass appeal so price point shouldn't be the only kind of thing that
denotes you as luxury it should be quality of product when it comes to because we're living
a time where economically people are struggling you know the whole elitist exclusivity by price
point is sort of like rhetoric fills a bit redundant out of touch for the vast majority of
the population the western population so the brand can still deliver on quality but make their products
more accessible for everyone that's only going to be positive you know and I would like to see a
world where like luxury is not seen as like just a thing that is denoted by price you know it's like
everyone deserves an aspect of what luxury feels like to them and it shouldn't be they shouldn't
be excluded because of what they can and cannot afford but then also if you as a brand if you want
to be financially successful in this market you need exactly you need to appeal to a wide
demographic of those who have socioeconomic sort of differences yeah because you think they're
missing a trick given that you know ironically the luxury sector has less money than the mass
market sector you'd think why aren't they appealing to as many different like demographics as possible
yeah yeah which is kind of baffling in a way yeah it's one of those things why I don't yeah I just
like what's still with the pillar that luxury sits on why do we still need it you know particularly
from a beauty perspective like I really would love to just do an interview series of luxury beauty
founders and like be like what makes your brand luxury it would they would say innovation that
innovation that informs the price point but in this day and age really I've beaten the most
innovative brands that have the most funding behind them to actually push for innovation
actually a mass brand like Boone's Compass never for example they have a lot of science behind them
and a lot of like money invested in research but they have a price point that is relatively accessible
so yeah I don't understand I'm not their customer but like but I understand luxury for those
at well-feezed status thing as well the price point they would say like oh I bought this 700
pound serum because to that demographic that's chump change to them and if a business feels
okay we just want to focus on that demographic even though it is as in the lesser percentile
population then they're enough but why yeah so do you think it's a case that we need to kind of
actually change what what we kind of define as a luxury product do you think that's part of the
the issue yeah I think it's it's one of those things where I would love to like kind of understand
more from the general industry what is like what defines a luxury product definitely and just really
really interrogate that because I know what luxury means to me speaking with other women of colour
and I'm actually know and also just want to work out general friends who are not in the industry I
think it's also really important speaking with people who are not in the industry who still
consume beauty what do they perceive as luxury you know like so really using that to really kind of
like set the foundation as to what luxury looks like going forward because I think we'd be surprised
at luxury for the most people is not what we think it is do you think yeah yeah I don't because like
I remember I had a dinner some friends over dinner it got around to the conversation of luxury and
stuff and I was like what do you what perhaps because of the luxury like do you consider the
deorosh now no I know oh really yeah that's interesting women my age um various like ethnicities
and like if I can buy it in boots it's not luxury one of my friends said and I was like okay interesting
so it's more about kind of rarity yeah rarity of exclusivity um another thing I actually wanted to
get um to later it was your question was like the idea of like okay you know there's that saying
that money talks wealth whispers I think in that line of thought if you have to scream out that
you're luxury and luxury you're not yeah definitely um it's all about it's that kind of whole quiet
luxury trend isn't it and how you brand yourself and that yeah you want to sort of show that you're
this high quality brand but I'm saying and and what are the and I think it's an it's an individual
thing like for a consumer level as to what they read in that that makes them perceive that as luxury
um but I think it's in essence like a brand that is truly luxurious or luck it doesn't need to
tell it to tell you that they are you just perceive that from it yeah kind of show don't tell kind of
thing um do you think there's like a genuine commitment within the luxury sector to be more
inclusive do you think that brands are trying or do you think that it's still kind of huge blind spot
within our industry at the moment yeah I think brands are trying I think we can't deny there's been
huge drives in the last like 10 or so years um within the luxury sector to
during like black square summer as our friend Carol likes to call it like there was a huge
uptake in brands across the board wanting to speak to an appeal to the black consumer and then
also had data that had been kind of lost 10 years about the spending power of the black consumer
the black pound and brands cottoned onto that so they started seeing the sort of black consumer as a
viable customer base for them and so marketing changed advertising changed and the intention I
feel sometimes has been there but understanding that true change takes time um understanding that in
order to capture that customer base that can often be a bit mistrusting may have economic
limitations um will take a while for you to build up that customer base so it can't just be a click
of fingers bam done and then it does not work after the first campaign you give up no it needs to be
the commitment if you're making it needs to be long term it has to have a long term view and
potential also another thing I feel like is it's like in order for you to genuinely show your
commitment to sort of diversity and luxury beauty make sure the people you're hiring who are decision
maker percent yeah as diverse as possible you know like they if you're not doing that then you
haven't really got a commitment to it it's just tokenistic it's just you're doing it for the money
wrap money grab true the true kind of commitment shows hiring diverse team members from those
up all the way down and understanding that this is a long game you know it's like it going back to
that comment that I um had had a couple of years ago when someone had said like it's not an essential
for luxury brands to market not black consumers because they've got such a small percentage
it's just like I get that we ask we I think we make up less than five percent of the UK population
but there is still spending power than that than that five percent and if a commitment looks like
not just seeing it as a commercial money grab it looks like you know what we see value in you so
therefore we're going to put the time and effort understand the long time strategic potential
of engaging and catering to you yeah and I think if companies are at a level where they can't
afford maybe to like that have the capacity to take on new team members they could do what a
rebate did and work with artists and content creators you know hire consultants consultants
yeah no and the thing is like if you're going to like Deborah for example you know that's like me
and the thing is like if you're going to make these hires be sure you're going to listen to them
and what their perspective is um because like there's no point in hiring an expert or someone
who's versed in the field if what they say does not marry with what you want to hear that is just
a quick list it's a waste of money also away from the consultants do deep diving research on your
on the customer base that you want to attract don't just like look at numbers from blanket surveys
or statistics that aren't very nuanced enough to understand do both groups and like kind of like
um yeah just focus groups or community-based sessions with these don't allow to fully understand
not just the quantifiable but a qualitative insight as to what they can give you yeah and this takes
time and effort so be really willing to commit to your kind of like your desire for diversity
and putting the time and effort in to hire diverse sort of staff members or consultants and speak to
the customer base you want to serve in a really meaningful way what do you think that the mass
market is doing at the moment that you think luxury brands can learn from in that respect um
I mean do you think that the mass market is kind of more ahead in in that way um just because they
are you know maybe a smaller indie brands that are a bit more dynamic and have a bit more kind of
room to um yeah be innovative in that in that sense and be more inclusive and yeah I think mass
market and any brand often can make inclusivity a foundational part part of the entity just
generally because um it's not to see in the afterthought I mean Ben T is another prime example
everyone talks plenty out as being really pioneering I don't it's pioneer you can be a pioneer when
you have loads of money behind you but and it gets lauded for the amount of like shade variety
lords with but I know of so many black owned brands or general brands that already were doing
those shade ranges but not all of them and they couldn't do it all as one because essentially
haven't got the funding um like but like I think with mass and any brands who put a dense of
diversity as a foundational part of their brand are really really keep are really really great and
like luxury brands can learn from that now a brand I feel does it really really well as topicals you
know with massing of products at center on diversity in the outset you know it speaks to
everyone you know it bows everyone so in a way is diversity is not really a thing because from the
jump everyone's included um so like yeah I think luxury brands can like definitely sort of move
beyond surface level inclusion like you know it's such a tokenistic campaigns or a single shade
expansion they need to be versed into DNA like ensuring that black customers exist in like
prioritise also another thing is like I think mass and indie brands do quite well is again I can't
I think it speaks to the idea of elitism but like mass and indie brand are full foster strong
connection of their communities in their development phases and ongoing you know they take custody of
feedback as an integral part of their sort of brand development they collaborate with influencers
that are accessible and relatable as opposed to those that feel just unattainable and celebrities
um they tend to kind of like work with more diverse professionals and curators in the black
community and this ensures like really authentic relationships that resonate with their customers
um for me like luxury brands need to partner with more black makeup artists you know hair stylists
don't colleges to co-create brands and products and facial content that speaks to black consumers
and it shows also that they amplify black creators and voices so that shows that it's a part of their
DNA you know um also I feel like indie brands emerge can emerge from within black communities
the black community itself so like their commitment always I feel in addressing inequalities is
feels authentic because they are coming from being the change that they want to see they tend to yeah
they know what it's like to feel underserved and they know what actually needs to be done to
is that and they tend to like I find like working with black founders um they hire diverse teams
they tend to be more likely to invest in black owned supply chains you know like really actively
championing equity in their practices and like for me luxury brands need to really practically like
invest in equity focused initiatives like partly black owned ingredient suppliers
barely you know funding schools black chemists you know or creating mental programs for black
entrepreneurs in the beauty industry these are ways in which these luxury brands will say okay you
know what we're not just about the consumer spent the pound we want to get we're also about supporting
the legacy of black professionalism within this industry yeah all the way through the supply chain
do you think that celebrities could be the you know you talk about like maybe don't just
part with the celebrity but do you think that they could be kind of the future of um of luxury
beauty actually reaching the kind of black consumer because like things like fenty beauty
I mean I don't know I sort of see that as a luxury brand I mean it was you know carried in like
harpy nickels and I think you know brands are people like Rihanna or like Pat McGrath at the helm
they do you think they've done sort of a little bit to kind of move the needle in that way um yeah
most definitely I don't think that I saw it slowly brands necessarily the future but I can definitely
see how and appreciate how they have really helped solidify the idea that by diversity by
diversified diversity can be a commercially viable thing fenty's a prime example of that you know
it's commercially successful commercially successful brand and their strategy was to be as diverse as
possible so therefore a lot of brands saw that and picked up on it so I think that's a positive
thing and I think with a brand like Pat McGrath Blatt so being able to see that a black founder can
successfully launch a bright brand that will be commercially accessible and successful for everyone
because her product range is for everyone is a positive thing for the industry as a whole
I don't necessarily come to celebrity brands um I feel like they can be a force for good in that
respect you know because you've got that star power and then they're also kind of serving those
overlooked communities as well yeah essentially because they can afford to you know like with like
and also for me I feel like just taking away from luxury conversation for a moment one of the things
that's really important to me is economic equity equity you know I particularly want to see our
industry dominated by conglomerates and more often than not when you have a celebrity brand
that is launched it's backed by a huge conglomerate you know and that's the reason why they can come out
so hitting so hard you know I would love to be able to see and I believe that we should be
supporting more independent entrepreneurship um one of the key things that I've noticed over the years
since being in the industry is the emergence of beauty entrepreneurs who have great ideas great
products with effective products um who are self-funding bootstrapping or slowly raising capital
and I think it's important for them to also have an equal opportunity within this market
because for many a reason you know I feel like when something is found alert for me I maybe a bit
misguided in this perspective but I feel as much more fantasy behind it I feel I feel a lot safer
in my purchase decision because I there's not there's not so many murky things to navigate
what's going on behind the scenes of that brand you know yeah there's that human connection and
like you know that they could be active on social media so you can actually talk to them and actually
kind of yeah and also like your questions see them maybe the principal's of how they've
broken the businesses run the brand is built and who they're associated with a lot more clear cut
than say a conglomerate who does this in this country and does that in the other you know for me
like I feel like consumers are becoming a lot more um a lot more kind of like my sort of like
cognizant of ethical practices of businesses and a way in which I stand on this is by wanting to know
clearly who I'm shopping with and it's a lot clearer to understand that when it's independent
founder from my perspective yeah that makes sense and do you think that brand story is important
then in that respect as well like having a strong brand story um a strong brand story is good yeah
I don't necessarily think the brand story needs to send to the founder um I think like there was a
podcast that you did I can't remember who it was with but it was you mentioned about like how
was it podcast or social media thing for that but basically it's only female founders who
are pressure that's making narrative that's actually and it's yeah it's it's so true it's
like extra emotional labor that you have to do to female founder and this is like I think it's great
I think it's great because we like to connect with others but I don't think it's essential what is
essential is for me as a consumer because we're understanding your brand values why do you do
how you how you produce what you produce and how this connects with me and my needs as a consumer
I don't need to know your if your backstory if you it's about if you want to put your backstory
into your kind of narrative as to why you've launched it's fine but don't feel the need to
constantly be on your social media um giving your all and like yeah creating emotional touch
points with your customers because after a while it can feel really disingenuous
it might be authentic like you can't because it's up when you're trying to be someone you're not
you know um and that eventually pushes you down and it come and it can be read by the observer
you know like you just like who you are so just stay authentic to who you are like if you've got a
strong brand a strong product but let that do the talking for you you know that makes a lot of
sense I mean do you think that black consumers are changing the landscape like rather than
waiting for the industry to to catch up you know catch up with them and change for them
do you think that there are industry innovators within the black community that are kind of
changing the beauty landscape I mean yeah I mean undoubtedly I thought black British consumers have
like a profound cultural influence on just global market trends you know particularly from music
fashion social media and they combine this with like the growing spending power I think they're
in a way kind of poise to redefine what luxury means and this like looks like demanding products
and experiments that really resonate with their identities and values one of the trends that I
feel like has it has been here is here but I think will continue to grow is like luxury products
tailored to melon rich skin and hair textures I think they'll be a certain like premium skincare
and hair care products that's really designed for addressing the needs of black consumers things
like high fermentation, colloid scarring, curl definitions, scalp health etc but like high performance
luxury very formula formulas are negotiable you know for the black consumer you know brands
investing inside of it research, hairs like melon and rich skin, textured hair, exclusive
cutting edge solutions and live in the premium way it's just going to be the standard I feel
that the generation of black consumer coming up it's going to require that brands such as 456
skin do this already and do it really well and also the steam bar as well I feel like they are
at the pinnacle of delivering specific products that are sort of formulated and developed with
sort of like a diverse melanated skin type and curl and a curl texture in mind that's first
and foremost that they've developed for but then from that anyone can use it but like they often
stand 10 turns down about like we have been developed first and foremost for this demographic but
everyone can use it so the 456 skin and the steam bar I think that was the brand I was thinking of
I was like who's that brand that was that oh my you know it's the name of my tongue yeah that's the
one um I think really doing that doing this well also like inclusionary like luxury retail experiences
I feel like it's a trend that we're going to really see coming through like people want to go
offline they don't want to be on social media everyone's sort of fixated brands with like social
media but actually like so people want the offline experiences that brand space experiences like I
thought because I was having I did an interview yesterday one of the thing and we're talking about
AI and tech and all this stuff and I thought about innovation but I think you know what luxury I
feel like going forward is going to be human connection human interaction um and when it comes
in the retail setting I think like there is nothing you can't get better advice or guidance or feel
held to make a consumer purchase better than in a physical retail store but with those of births
to guide you well so they know their stuff their assistance and store stuff but truly are trained
to talk widely about the needs of a wide demographic and that is like it feels like a
concierge service in a way you feel like you're being spoken to uniquely for you and your needs I
feel like that's the edge that comes through really really strongly and a place does it really well
it's a place where they talk with beauty and it may fair so there are beauty and wellness boutique
in Mayfair and you know I put in there a piece of one thing that really astounds me is how knowledgeable
their staff are like jeez I miss going to retailers like I sometimes want to go to general retail
like retailer and I want to sort of like I'll go in for certainly for what I know I need from a
brand I'm already sharp but I'm also open to trying something else so I'll go into like a store
and I will ask about this particular product and the the level of kind of like I feel
knowledge or care that's sometimes given it's just lacking and it's just like well you've just
lost my lost customer there because like I'm not inspired by this purchase but whenever I've been
into Mayfair I feel like their staff knowledge is exceptional you know like forming radiance
to what would work best on my tone on my skin just like I really appreciate the level of training
they go through and that they deliver to their customers and I think like and across like
Abnesi as well I know that it's by speaking to Cheryl the founder and they have a very very very
vast sort of diverse customer base so they like owned as a business yeah Cheryl Riley
Cheryl Riley owns and she's black and she was a founder of Nels and Browls Mayfair and they opened Beauty
Edit a few doors up and they're just like again when I say it's a bit one could say oh it's
luxury because of where it's located in Mayfair but you know what I was saying about like um
wealth whispers doesn't like it's not showy it just like it showed up how it is and it's just
like it's not trying to be anything it just feels like really just like this just feels like a really
beautiful experience all around everything like every touch point feels just a bit different from
what you get elsewhere um yeah so I'd say those are kind of like trends also like for the future
I think like luxury reimagining inclusive and diverse like I think I'd say before like
traditionally Eurocentric and classes and I think classes are nothing that we need to look at here
oh my gosh that's a whole other podcast yeah no like I feel like traditionally like the ideas
was like luxury have been based in Eurocentric ideas and also ideals but I think this is like
from a black consumer perspective and also it's not as a black consumer because like we're more
doing the me talk I did a few weeks in October for the event a really interesting point was made
about women up in the northeast in Manchester or Liverpool specifically who walk around with their
hair and rollers and staffs on and then you have black girls who are walking around with satin bonnets
right and we could look at that and be like oh still working class things that's tacky right
but I've been seeing a lot of like it coming through in hiring campaigns or shoots of fashion
magazines women like that you know so something that was once deemed as like low class and you
don't go out in public like that is now being embraced by high fashion you know and seen as and
being seen as acceptable but like you know acceptable yeah we don't I feel like when it comes to like
McLeod perspective and also from a black group we don't the permission is not required we were
doing it anyway we don't need it to be co-signed um by the elite or by the high echelons to deem it
as acceptable because we because in fact this demonstrates that you come to us you come to
them for inspiration yeah like the notions of what is seen as luxury it's like tattoos and nail art
isn't it it's that great you know now like that's what you know get over and you had Shah bring it
over to the mainstream the west for bar what while now's and then you sort of blop everywhere you know
it's just like I feel like it's the same thing black people define beauty culture hugely as well
as well as well as people as well I think possibly particularly from a fashion level like street wear
you know as a prime example oh my gosh yes yeah is that you know so I feel like the ideas of what is
luxury it's good it's it has been being and we continue being been defined by black culture
and need to show up it's what it's already happening yeah it's happening in a way but I think I'm
going to see like it's quite interesting like the way the what going back again to what luxury is
this sort of challenges the idea of like okay when you have a demographic it's like actually
not there's parts of me that may have been seen as get her ratchet at one time but I now see the
mainstream adopting this and making it luxury so this is now luxury I think how does that feel
how does that feel like from my perspective it makes me just feel like again when I see
where I just like um I don't stand on nothing because I don't stand on anything industry wise
trying to kind of determine my density if you know what I mean yeah but I don't look to anything
that's trend wise or just like group think wise but I need to lean into to be seen as yeah you're
already you you don't need certain like the outward validation yeah external validation
in order to kind of cosine on that like exactly and also because going back to the retail part
I was talking about sort of inclusive luxury retail experiences it's kind of what I was having a
conversation with someone earlier this week um about like and it's quite interesting whenever I
work with brands and stuff and they wanted to they who wanted to enter bricks and mortar
and they want to be in certain retailers um because they see these retailers as being the
high-rational on they have like it's like market awareness it's luxury yard yard yard yard yard
and I was walking to this girl as woman recently and she is watching something that I think is a
really interesting concept and I love it for her and the reason I bring this up is because
when it comes to retail we traditionally sort of thought yourself for years your liberty your
harvionics as retail destinations to go to we go to them we have to assimilate and fit ourselves
into what they consider and where they consider luxury luxury doesn't come to us but this woman
is launching a concept in a location that has a predominantly black population which you wouldn't
necessarily consider as luxury but it is rooted in black culture it has she's done a research yet
it has a wide um cross section of different socioeconomic households from that community in
there and she's launching this concept there and I'm like yes can we stop thinking of luxury places
only being in one place and not within the communities where we exist yeah it's so kind of
London centric isn't it all like central London yeah west London centric as well and I'm just like
I hate going to central London I don't consider it a luxury experience I just have a fucking night
there it's like antithesis of what a luxury experience I want to go central London's by start
but I understand why commercially it makes sense for others but it also goes speak to like okay why
why can't we build our own luxury ideas of luxury in our experiences on our own doorstep so yeah
this that may be a thing um that's kind of why I speak Italian also there's two other
entrepreneurs who are doing something very similar in terms of opening concepts and spaces in areas
that you wouldn't necessarily think they would be and I'm all for that because it's not about just
getting into the luxury space or getting the luxury world to change it's actually about
redefining what luxury is and who are the gatekeepers of that yeah redefining also I just
I focus for a consumer level as well because I think it's quite interesting that um being realistic
like looking at like I was speaking to a brand and looking at the office narcissistics like
black people tend to the general household income of black people is quite low but you still do have
a strong kind of cohort of money black people who have disposable incomes I'm also myself one of them
to be honest I have disposable income I like to buy nice I like to buy things that I consider nice
and but I often find it interesting when um you have black consumers you have money and where they
choose to spend that money it tends to be an established um sort of like legacy brands that are
from a considered like high-end aspirational from a certain way you know like your
jakma is like your kind of like I don't know saline etc and but they don't spend on black owned luxury
brand and I'm like why and it's because essentially we are still looking at these labels as status
symbols and and as I speak to aspire to and in a way we don't see maybe we don't see our offering
smart own community as the same and I really think that that needs to be kind of interrogated and
questioned more and one could say it's because there is not enough awareness or we don't see
these luxury black owned brands around but they're out there it makes it require you doing a bit more
digging but they are out there and they are worth that investment because as I said before it's these
brands are really going to help shape the culture and the future of the beauty industry for us
you're in a real authentic way so it's really important that when you have the money I mean
you can do what you want with your money you know but like if you have the money and your
four ownership equity legacy opportunity maybe question why you're spending that money a bit
more yeah because you have to vote with your feet at the end of the day don't you exactly money
money talks in this app in that way live for sure well thank you so much Deborah for
joining me on the podcast I really appreciate it and I really enjoyed our chat lovely to chat with
you as always looking forward to maybe having you back on in the not so distant future but you
love to it's always good to catch up with you I hope you enjoyed that episode all links will be
in the show notes and feel free to visit smartbeautycreative.com or visit us over on Instagram to find
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