1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:18,760 Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. I'm your host, Vyla Levy, beauty journalist 2 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,960 and founder of Copilot branding agency, Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to create your 3 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:33,040 brand voice and craft the story behind it. Today I'm incredibly excited to be joined by 4 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:39,320 Millie Kendall OBE, serial entrepreneur and CEO of the British Beauty Council. She's one of the 5 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,640 most influential voices driving change in the beauty industry today. Millie has been a force in 6 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,880 beauty for over three decades championing inclusivity, transparency and positive messaging 7 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,360 across the industry. Through her work with the British Beauty Council, Millie advocates for a 8 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,880 beauty landscape that not only celebrates diversity but also supports the unique needs and 9 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,720 experiences of people at every stage of their lives. In our conversation we'll delve into some 10 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,800 critical questions around aging and representation in beauty, a topic I know Millie is passionate 11 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:14,120 about. We'll explore the industry's shifting attitudes towards aging, the rise of pro-aging 12 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:19,160 messaging and the way brands can genuinely support all ages instead of reinforcing stereotypes. 13 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,360 Millie will also share her insights on the booming menopause care market, the challenges women 14 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:29,640 face and the council's role in promoting beauty standards that empower rather than limit. Millie, 15 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,440 thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. I hope I live up to your expectations. 16 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:42,200 So how has the beauty industry's approach to aging changed over the past decade in your 17 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:48,520 experience and what do you think has driven this shift? I mean I think and I hate to say this but 18 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:55,000 I think it's a lot of it is commercial really and I think that you've and a lot of the larger 19 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,760 companies adopted it reasonably soon when they realised that the spending power was with the 20 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:07,880 sort of over 40s. Yeah I think that there is disposable income, there is younger people are 21 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:16,760 less wealthy than older people at the same age. I think that there is, we used to think disposable 22 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,680 income was with the sort of young 20 year olds who were still living at home because people lived 23 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:27,320 at home longer and so they had more money to spend but actually that sort of shifted probably about 24 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:34,440 maybe at the turn of the century this weird thing to say when it became very apparent that 25 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:41,160 this sort of over 40s, over 50s, over 60s people were living longer and actually they were the ones 26 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:47,960 that held the wealth and so there was a lot of talk 20 or years ago about how the beauty 27 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,040 industry should engage with those women that are a little bit older that had more money to spend 28 00:02:53,400 --> 00:03:01,960 and I think that so you see a lot of advertising people at Adam McDowell who has long been a face 29 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:09,400 in beauty campaigns who is now still the face in beauty campaigns but with her beautiful gray hair 30 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:16,120 or Jane Fonda who's been a beauty icon for decades and decades and decades still walking 31 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:21,400 the red carpet or the catwalk and still being the face of beauty campaigns. So I think that 32 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:30,600 as cynical as it sounds the shift is very commercial and it's not necessarily always based on 33 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,760 the needs of the older consumer, it's based on the fact that we've got the money. 34 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:41,560 No definitely and there's still kind of these age hysteria types that the beauty industry has been 35 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:47,000 criticised for perpetuating. I mean how do you think that we can move forward from that because 36 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,280 we still see like the term anti-aging everywhere and like there was an advert I saw on the tube 37 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,600 the other day like you know this is how you look 21 or something like that and I was like seriously 38 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:04,440 2024. Yeah I think the interesting thing is is that we're all chasing the 39 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:17,240 fountain of youth aren't we so and I think that the whatever you call it we are all still looking 40 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:25,800 back on pictures of ourselves thinking wow I look happier healthier younger you know in those pictures 41 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:33,160 when I was in my 20s but life was very different back then. I experienced all the stress. I don't 42 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:39,240 know if that's something that will change really overnight. I think that that's I think I think 43 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,280 it's about having a combination of both. I know for a fact that I accept myself much better now 44 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:50,040 than I did back then. I think that while I may not look as young as I did when I was in my 20s 45 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:56,600 I'm much more confident and comfortable in myself so I think it's about and I actually think the 46 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:03,720 wellness industry might be the key to this because it might not be how you look it might be more 47 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:09,560 about how you feel. How you feel yeah and that might you know and that might not be about whether 48 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,200 I still get out there in my hip hurts in the morning you know and that's not pleasant and that 49 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:26,600 is part of aging but I'm much fitter I exercise more I'm less nasty to my body I'm more appreciative 50 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:33,640 of the nooks and crannies and the wrinkles and the flab and the skin elasticity and I'm kinder to 51 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:40,520 myself and I do think that the wellness industry will play a big part in this and it's not just 52 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,560 about the supplements and stuff like that albeit that I think that that will be a part of it I take 53 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,720 I drink my simproven in the morning I take a tablespoon of the most disgusting seamos before 54 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:59,160 I've even drunk a cup of tea I only have one coffee a day I do Pilates and I have a trainer and I 55 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:04,600 play tennis and I'm active I still go out in the evenings but I'm just kinder to myself and I think 56 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:13,000 that that's where will will strike the balance I do not think that the anybody will ever be able to 57 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:22,280 tell somebody of my age not to that you shouldn't want to look useful I just don't that's a reasonable 58 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,080 thing to say I look at those pictures and I think my god I was hot when I was 20 59 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:34,920 I think I'm 57 so it's like I have to figure out a way of feeling hot now not why I'm 60 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,320 about how I look I think it's about just looking fabulous for your age isn't it I think that from 61 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,840 my perspective about I'm about 1040 and I think it's just about looking I don't want to look 21 62 00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:49,000 but I just want to look less knackered like I've got a toddler and you know I think I've aged 63 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,160 about 10 years in the last like yeah wait wait till that toddler gets to their teens then you look 64 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:59,800 knackered let me tell you oh my gosh I thought having young kids was exhausting having teenagers 65 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,520 that go out at night and then you're two o'clock in the morning you're like where the hell are they 66 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:10,920 you know that's stressful um well it's all stressful actually having children is stressful 67 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:18,840 but yeah I totally get it yeah um yeah but I think that like you say with the wellness industry 68 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,520 it's about kind of products that make you feel good as opposed to it's more about feeling good 69 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:27,400 as opposed to looking good and I find if I feel better in my body I feel better about my body 70 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:32,840 if that makes sense so far I hit the gym it's not to look like J.Lo it's to just you know if I you 71 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,400 know like after a run you feel amazing and then I kind of have a better relationship with my body 72 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:43,480 as a result do you kind of see more people leaning towards that um if that makes sense I do and also 73 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,360 things like sleep like things like as I've gotten older I mean I don't know why but in my 20s I thought 74 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:53,160 not sleeping was like the coolest thing ever now it's like I mean the other night because of the 75 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,480 election I went to bed like one o'clock in the morning woke up at five I had four hours sleep 76 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:06,360 I mean I look like I've been run over by a vehicle I I think that you know sleep exercise oh sorry my 77 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,160 phone keeps trying to I don't know I need to put my phone on disturb that's another thing the stresses 78 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:19,160 of bone right all of that for sure bones constantly being on all of that kind of stuff it's it's 79 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:25,320 distressing and I think that exercise and sleep are really important I do I really do think that 80 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:31,960 no 100% so hopefully that kind of feeds into this sort of pro-aging message that we're trying to 81 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:37,400 you know move towards I mean do you think that you know the companies that are doing it it is 82 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,360 genuine or do you think it's just another kind of marketing ploy at the moment I think there'll 83 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:50,440 be a combination I think there'll be some some people that are really really genuine I mean I'll 84 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,440 say like you know double I double A I think are really genuine and I think that actually how they 85 00:08:54,440 --> 00:09:01,720 how they integrate internal well-being and the outside physical stuff I think is really amazing 86 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:08,120 and I think that and actually just having and going back to that company particularly because 87 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:16,600 we I've sort of spent a lot of time with them and I think that how they how they I mean they call 88 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:24,840 their business I think they refer to it as active aging and I think that's how and and actually 89 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:30,280 their products and their treatments and how they kind of integrate inner health and outer well-being 90 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:35,320 I actually think it's good for young people as well because a lot of it's based on gut and 91 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:43,480 microbiome so I think that I think that some businesses absolutely genuinely are 92 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:52,280 are really promoting age and well-being I think that some businesses will jump on it the bandwagon 93 00:09:52,280 --> 00:10:00,840 of course to commercially gain from it but we tend to sniff it out eventually those 94 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:07,720 businesses that are you know that aren't genuine that don't have you know I call it a backbone 95 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:13,880 where they don't have that sort of the genuine it's not part of their DNA of their the right ethos 96 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:18,680 or whatever it's shallow and it's we sniff it out eventually they don't last I mean they might make 97 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:23,720 money but they don't last they frame it as a choice well you don't have to do this but if you want 98 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:29,240 to here are the products it feels a disingenuous yeah I mean this is a fact is a go again back to 99 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:35,320 the fact that despite the fact that we're in a business where we are we feel as people the work 100 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,920 in the industry that we're doing we're for the greater good and we're helping people's well-being 101 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,560 and we're helping them to feel confident and wonderful the fact is we are part of an industry 102 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:51,080 that sells product to consumers so we are in a commercial environment so people are always 103 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,160 going to try and take advantage of that for sure and I think there's always going to be that toxic 104 00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:00,280 element that's in everything that doesn't that's in the food industry that's in the fashion that's 105 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,640 in the real estate industry you know when you want to see a flat and then you get 50 000 estate 106 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:10,920 agents calling you every five minutes and a texting yeah it's like it's like everyone's trying to 107 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:17,240 sell you something so we just have to be sort of almost emboldened to sort of say look this is what 108 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:23,720 consumerism is about we were living in the 20th century where every single thing we touch my water 109 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:29,080 bottle is about trying to flog me something it's just the way it is you know we have to be bolder 110 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:34,440 than that we have to be stronger than that and say I'm not going to buy into it so you know that's for 111 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:40,680 us to manage really definitely and at the same time you know we're talking about pro-aging but 112 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:47,000 then there's a scary number of like young people getting like lip fillers and Botox and injectables 113 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,920 and I know that you with the British beauty council are trying your best to help regulate that 114 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,280 so it's there's more sort of legislation in place to protect people what else is the British 115 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:02,360 beauty council doing to help with this sort of stem the tide yeah I mean with fillers and Botox 116 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,520 at such a young age because it plants the seed that aging is this sort of toxic thing that you 117 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,520 need to avoid at all costs yeah I mean the weird thing is is that there's two parts to that one is 118 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:16,200 about aging so you think like young people and I would say those are more in their late 20s are 119 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:23,320 looking at Botox and fillers and stuff like that I think laser treatments you know laser 120 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:30,040 facials are safe and I think they're actually very very helpful useful and do great work you know 121 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:35,480 that I think that's quite amazing that that bit of it I think is very dangerous but what we've done 122 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:43,080 basically is we've managed to get Botox and fillers bang for under 18 year olds so that's 123 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:48,680 really good that was the first step now we're in a process of department for health and social care 124 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:52,600 in terms of getting this bill pushed forward obviously with a change of government always 125 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,200 very difficult because you kind of have to pick up where you left off and it's challenging because 126 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:06,280 um that the it was there was a big consultation we had record amounts of response from industry 127 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:14,280 around the consultation the idea is to have like a uh green is okay orange is a little bit not sure 128 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:20,360 about and red was definitely we shouldn't be doing and I feel that Botox and fillers should not be 129 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:29,080 carried out by anyone without a medical license agreed because there is no redress if something 130 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:34,760 goes wrong the fact of the matter is is that the horse had already bolted before the beauty council 131 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:43,240 came to fruition so a lot of people are already doing that carrying out those treatments and so 132 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,840 the best we can probably hope for is that if somebody without a medical license is doing that 133 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:54,520 treatment there is medical oversight on the premises which I think again is really important 134 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:01,640 in terms of because because redress is really important because because obviously if something 135 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:08,680 does go wrong we've got a big problem back to the other point about the the young people getting 136 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:14,040 those treatments people in their late 20s I think are probably looking at aging and like I said I 137 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,120 think there'll be machinery like lasers and other treatments that they can probably start to look at 138 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:24,200 if that's a concern I don't think it should be but if that is a concern I think that younger people 139 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:30,760 getting it done that's not about aging that is about making your face look different and that I am 140 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:37,080 wholeheartedly against because you have not grown into your face at that age and having 141 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,440 various different things done to your face to change how you look having cheek fillers or 142 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:51,240 chin filler or lip stun at the early age of you know in your early 20s I think is 143 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,760 pooling sorry and I think people are going to age we don't we don't know how that generation are 144 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,800 going to then reach middle age with all of that all of those procedures you know because they 145 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:07,320 don't they're not like the likes of these reality stars that are billionaires that can go and have 146 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,720 things corrected and have fillers removed properly they can't afford the best surgeons in town 147 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,440 not a single person I know that's had it done at that age that has not regretted it 10 years later 148 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:21,160 and I you know and I'll be really honest here part of my sort of um issue with it is my mum 149 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:27,880 was a big fan of plastic surgery um and we're talking like my mum had plastic surgery in the 150 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:33,640 70s when it was like you know she might have been the first person to ever have had certain things 151 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:40,600 done you know in the UK I mean she was a really brave very brave but she was never satisfied 152 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:47,320 and she was never happy and you're chasing this rainbow this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow 153 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:56,120 and I don't know and I feel like it stems from insecurity but it perpetuates insecurity 154 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:02,040 and the fact is is that when you get to a certain age as you just said you feel more confident 155 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:09,640 about yourself you start to be learn to live with yourself and you know I don't dislike the fact 156 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:16,360 that maybe my nose is a little wide or my top lip is a little thin or I don't really care anymore 157 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:25,320 because it's not really life's really not about that um so I I don't know I just I think that 158 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:31,480 there should be I think there needs to be some sort of psychological or at least some basic 159 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:37,400 assessment before somebody has a treatment and I feel that there needs to be medical oversight 160 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:43,800 if anyone is performing one of those treatments that is not a registered medical professional 161 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:50,360 and I also think that it's a bit big challenge in terms of distribution because 162 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,320 botulinum toxins that they're not then they shouldn't be used by anyone that's not a 163 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,840 medical professional but clearly they are being used so there is obviously a sort of 164 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:07,080 distribution issue they said that right botulinum toxin anyway I don't I don't want to use it by 165 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,080 its brand name because that is just botox is a brand name it's not actually what it's called but 166 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,320 but but the fact is is that there's obviously some slightly dodgy distribution going on 167 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,520 because no one should be using it that's not a medical professional because it's a prescription 168 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,080 drug yes and you're literally injecting poison into your face like why would you with somebody 169 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:31,880 that isn't um it's medically qualified I mean I've never had fillers I mean and oftentimes I look 170 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:37,160 at friends of mine that have had it done and obviously something really brilliant ways and very 171 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:43,880 subtle and but I just very subtle fillers but yeah just you can't really tell unless it's kind of 172 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,280 well I mean it's that sort of like sucking and sucking up and see I'm not really prepared to 173 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,480 wait and to see what if it goes wrong I could be that 1% it just doesn't sit in the right place 174 00:17:53,480 --> 00:18:01,800 I'm terrified of something happening that I can't control I I don't know I just wouldn't trust I've 175 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:07,000 got a real issue with trust obviously but yeah it's impacting the beauty industry in a way because 176 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,200 people are jumping to immediately getting injectables and fillers rather than embarking on like a good 177 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,760 skincare regime for example as soon as people think oh I'm in my late 20s I should start thinking 178 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:22,680 of an anti-aging routine they immediately jump to injectables I'm hoping I think it's become cheap 179 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:29,080 and I think that that's a problem I think that it's become a bit cheap I really hope that 180 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:36,120 there's two things like I said one is if you're looking at anti-aging there are certain resurfacing 181 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:44,760 techniques with laser and you know actives and skincare that probably are better than 182 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:52,200 Botox and fillers in my opinion and a good regime and a good facialist that uses laser I think probably 183 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:58,840 is better option I think when you come to fillers you only need fillers when you lose volume and the 184 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,720 fact is you don't lose volume at the age of 20 so if you're using fillers at that age it's not 185 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,040 anti-aging it's because you want your face to look different and people are using them for 186 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:14,360 sort of facial restructure as opposed to yeah just adding volume yeah because it's kind of it's an 187 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:18,600 easy sort of alternative to a facelift you can just come in get a few injections and then you know 188 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,200 have it done on your lunch break as opposed to yeah yeah yeah but you know you've got to be damn 189 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,600 sure that that person knows what they're doing I mean again I just wouldn't trust somebody I'd be I'm 190 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,760 I mean the amount of times I've been offered something like that and I've gotten to the front 191 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:36,440 door and I thought you know what I don't really want this and I've walked away but I think I think 192 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,920 that you know what I can only hope for with the British Beauty Council is that the consultation 193 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:50,040 continues and that we get some benchmark for quality of service because what happens is the 194 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,280 cheaper the procedure the less qualified the practitioner the less professional we look as 195 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,320 an industry overall and that's what I'm concerned about is I'm I want to professionalize the industry 196 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:08,040 if it means that we have to do some sort of licensing scheme or whatever it might whatever it 197 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:15,400 might land at I'm not sure but I would like to make sure that we're professionalized and I think 198 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:21,560 that there isn't really many beauty therapists I know that don't want to see that so I think that 199 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,800 if we have to and also that means that those treatments should be more expensive they should be 200 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:32,360 harder to get you know they should it just shouldn't be on the street corner I mean I know on the 201 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:39,560 Archway Road there is a flipping barbers with a sandwich board outside offering fat loss injections 202 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:48,600 how is that possible in our country yeah and I and I've seen it on on the internet where I've seen 203 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:54,120 like they've been offering like Botox and fillers I'm sorry that's a barber shop on the Archway 204 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:59,240 Road what the hell are they doing that's just not acceptable to me definitely it's kind of dystopian 205 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,080 in a way if you think about it really is it really is I mean we do have to put a stop to it 206 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,400 anyway my my my I guess the thing is is that what I would like in an ideal world I would like 207 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,440 there to be some sort of licensing scheme I would like there to be some sort of medical 208 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,840 oversight on the premises in case something goes wrong I would like to see a register where there 209 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:22,680 can be some redress if something does go wrong where people are stricken off if they continually 210 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:29,480 practice badly I mean look at that Brazilian bum lift situation oh my gosh a woman died I mean 211 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:35,560 it's just horrendous you know we shouldn't be getting to that point no there has to be some 212 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:42,040 there has to be some halt and also I think we should start looking at you know what what lasers 213 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:48,920 can do because they're relatively safe the the companies that that lease or sell them to beauty 214 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:54,120 practitioners give very very good training I think there's a lot that can be done with the laser 215 00:21:54,760 --> 00:22:01,560 that we should start we should start adopting and being more positive about and and sort of 216 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,960 opening that up a little bit because I think that in combination with a good skincare regime can do 217 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:12,440 a lot no I agree but there's so much misinformation about lasers sort of floating around and it's 218 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,880 really difficult to sort of regulate the kind of information that gets disseminated especially we 219 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,440 like you know I think I read something recently about how like LEDs there was a study that LEDs 220 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,960 didn't work or something like that or it was just a gimmick and it's just you know there there are 221 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,280 sort of studies that show that there is kind of some sort of science behind it and there are kind 222 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:39,320 of proven results from it um so what I'm asking is like how do you know how do you sort of try and 223 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:46,280 tackle that the amount of sort of wrong information that is abundant on I mean it you it's very difficult 224 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,240 to do that because obviously because of social media I mean what what we do and we're very very 225 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,840 and I and I am very strict with this we don't put anything out that's not factual so we kind of 226 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,920 we you know I sort of always say to people we're a bit like Switzerland where we take no sides 227 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,640 everything's a fact we can't as British Beauty Council it's really very important to us that there 228 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:12,360 is no um that there is no misinformation I learned that very quickly during COVID that there were 229 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:18,360 a lot of sort of Facebook groups or you know people on social media saying a lot of nonsense 230 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:22,360 about what was going on and I just said look if there's one thing that we can do and one thing 231 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:28,280 that we need to do is make sure that everything that we're saying is absolutely factual whether that 232 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:36,040 be data driven or um around aesthetics or ingredients or whatever it might be it has to be fact 233 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,400 and that you know you come down you come under a lot of criticism you know when I when we did that 234 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,280 report encouraged to change about sustainability and I had a lot of people kind of contacting me 235 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,800 saying you know don't put this report out it will kill the industry and I'm like we've got to tell 236 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,880 we've got to tell the truth really why did they think it would kill the industry because 237 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,400 because obviously there is a real problem with our reliance on plastic but we know that we can't 238 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:08,440 bury the information it is a fact so say it and then the cat's out the bag and we as an industry 239 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,080 then have a responsibility to fix it and do something about it so that's what we work towards 240 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:18,200 not saying we have to fix it overnight but we have to do something about it and so I think 241 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:26,520 oftentimes I think we're an industry that has been that has relied on myth and misinformation 242 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:33,400 for a very long time we use terminology that is incorrect or is used as marketing and even back 243 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,680 to when I had Ruby and Millie I remember when when we were designing Ruby and Millie and I said I 244 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,320 want all the packaging to be clear and I want to show what's in a product and somebody said to me 245 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,720 at the company that was developing the products going but then people will know how little there is 246 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:55,320 in the pack and I was like well then people will that will see that everybody has too much bloody 247 00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:01,720 packaging I don't care let them see how much product is in the pack and they were like oh no you 248 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:08,760 can't do that you can't show what's inside it was just astounding to me like this is our industry 249 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:15,480 with conning people they buy a bottle and there's a tiny little bit of you know stuff inside it 250 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,360 that's ridiculous and then things like dummy ingredients so like a company will advertise 251 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:24,840 like the ingredient on the front of the pack when really they've got a small amount in the formula 252 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,800 that does nothing just like legally say oh this is a keratin shampoo even though the 253 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,800 keratin is a hyaluronic acid thing isn't it I mean you know what unless you've got like something 254 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,640 under eight ingredients let me tell you the amount of hyaluronic acid in that product is 255 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:43,480 minuscule because if you I always look at that whole ingredient diet thing so when I look at the 256 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,040 back of a product the fewer ingredients that are listed on the inky list the better I think the 257 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:53,480 product is yeah it's like going to a restaurant if they only cook like four or five things you know 258 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:59,000 it's going to be good whereas yeah exactly exactly yeah exactly um do you think that there's so much 259 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,680 smoke and mirrors because it's predominantly women who are buying these products and the way we've 260 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,960 historically marketed to those women using very patronizing and fantasizing language which is 261 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,680 hopefully that's why I set up Smart Beauty to try and change that and help brands communicate with 262 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,720 their customers in a more sophisticated and informative way rather than oh this is like a 263 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:23,160 magical cream or this is a miracle shampoo or whatever and using these sort of very childish 264 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,240 terminology without actually telling the consumer what's in the product because some like products 265 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,440 I think it's actually more I think it's actually more of a misogynistic sexist thing and I and I 266 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,720 don't want to come out as all feminist but I am a bit um but I think that's because and you know we 267 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,880 just did this study with this report that we did a beauty industry it looks like you and 268 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:49,080 no surprise obviously but white people and male and men increase at board level whereas every 269 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,800 other characteristic decreases at board level so you've got a lot of men making decisions 270 00:26:53,800 --> 00:27:00,120 and when men speak to women or when they're selling something to women they're going to pick up on 271 00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:06,280 the sort of again the insecurities of women I mean look you know for you know it's like 272 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:12,680 almost human nature that we prepare ourselves to be attractive to men you know as females majority 273 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:20,120 of females let's say not not all but you know in of itself no and I do but that is the relationship 274 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:24,520 between a man and a woman you know men have to look a certain way to be sort of virile to women 275 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,520 and women have to be a certain way to look like they're going to be men are under pressure 276 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,320 yeah men are under pressure in a completely different way but I think that when men are 277 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:39,000 marketing products to women there is a certain language that they use that makes us feel insecure 278 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:44,440 and barrier and needing of the product and I'm not saying those products because my my theory is 279 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:50,280 that I think those products actually make me feel good so I actually don't really care what 280 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:56,920 they're called you know but I do actually like the way they smell feel and make me feel and I 281 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,200 so I like to think I don't buy them based on the narrative because I think a lot of times it's sort 282 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:09,880 of a false hood but having worked in the medium of this of this fine industry for a very long 283 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,800 time I do know that it makes me feel good to put a little bit of a out cream on my lips you know 284 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:20,360 I don't care what it's called don't even really know what that means but you know it's but I do 285 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:27,320 think that that's quite misogynistic actually at the way that terminology is I mean I you know you 286 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,920 probably know because as somebody that writes a lot of copywriting a lot of male products are the 287 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,680 same as female products it's just a copywriting on the front of pack it's like a different pink 288 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:42,120 tax something it's called isn't it? Yeah so they're writing something for a woman and then you take 289 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,760 the same product and you can write it for a man and you can stick one in a black bottle and maybe 290 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,320 make it smell of sandalwood and you can put one in a pink bottle smell of rose and but it's the same 291 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:58,280 damn product actually at the day so it is by surprise for all the women. Absolutely and the 292 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:04,040 other thing is is that our industry is incredibly gendered which is and it's very binary and I find 293 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,520 that quite frustrating there's not something that we're going to change overnight you know it is 294 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,080 something that there are so many stakeholders that are involved in that whether that be 295 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,640 you know brands and retailers and stuff like that it's the way it's been for years you know you go 296 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,320 to a hairdressing salon or you go to a barbers it depends whether you're male or female. Yeah 297 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:30,680 for the most part just saying for the most part but um but yeah it's not going to change like the 298 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,880 perfume industry for example we're moving away from that with the rise of niche and the rise of 299 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:43,240 black gender neutral sense and hair salons are changing you know sometimes it's like you know why 300 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:51,640 is a men's haircut cheaper than a women's or you know why is that haircuts a haircut um so you know 301 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:58,120 I know Trevor Sorby's put in this sort of gender neutral you know sort of uh non-gendered pricing 302 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:05,080 structure so I think there's I think there are some changes um I mean with that I assumed that 303 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,400 men had shorter hair and they need to get their haircut more often but yeah that might be that 304 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,360 yeah maybe but the fact is that I used to be a hairdresser and I have to tell you that men's hair 305 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:22,360 is really bloody difficult because it's that you know um so yeah I don't know I think there's I think 306 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,200 there's a lot that needs to change it again do you know the one thing I've learned about the British 307 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,280 Beauty Council is you can make you have to have small you have to celebrate small wins because 308 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,920 there are small things that you can do because everything takes a really really long time 309 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,080 you're trying to basically you're on a jet ski and you're trying to stop the Titanic from heading 310 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:45,720 for an iceberg and it's really challenging and I'm doing that Ruby and I used to say that when 311 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:51,880 we had Ruby and Millie I mean we've been doing it for a very long time um and it's you know 312 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,080 you have to and I have a lot of respect for a lot of those larger companies it's very very difficult 313 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,160 for them to make changes but a lot of them are doing actually a lot more than you expect them to 314 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,760 be doing no definitely and now like more indie brands are popping up where that is embedded into 315 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,480 their DNA to be sustainable and to have all these values like you know inclusion and diversity 316 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:18,680 that it's absolutely scrambling around trying to trying to turn the ship around I I do think that 317 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,800 you know I I think we're becoming more honest I think we're becoming more transparent as an 318 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,400 industry I think in the UK we do it far better than our other countries in terms of transparency 319 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,920 and giving people agency to make those decisions I think we're much better at it I think we've got a 320 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:43,080 much better um and stronger cohort of people that want natural beauty products that are made with 321 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:51,880 integrity and ethics and I think that you know I was I was talking to uh Charles Denton from the 322 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:59,400 Body Shop yesterday and he was saying oftentimes the the the what you know the pace at which they 323 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:07,000 operate is slightly slower because of the integrity that's built into the brand you know making sure 324 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:15,400 that supply chain is checked and that um that things are carried out in an ethical manner and 325 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,080 and and he was saying something that I didn't actually know that when actually Netorodix 326 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:27,080 sold the business and L'Oreal took it over that part of what was sold was she built in that they 327 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:34,760 maintain that integrity I had they stuck with it the whole time throughout their ownership of that 328 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:41,960 brand and because that was part of the deal and I think that you know I think that we shouldn't 329 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,760 sell ourselves short I think oftentimes we look at America or Europe and we think are we like them 330 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:53,960 but we're not always like them we don't use as many marketing buzzwords we're you know I think 331 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,680 we're a little better I I really do believe that and at the end of the day I think consumers vote 332 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,680 with their feet don't they they're more informed and sophisticated we become in our kind of buying 333 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,520 choices which I think a lot of people are the more we're going to move away from brands that try and 334 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:12,120 market to us the old-fashioned way where it's all like smoke and mirrors and brands will catch on 335 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,280 as well because they'll see that we're not buying into that anymore so it can be an organic change 336 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:21,480 as opposed to something we need to necessarily rally against you know you saw we talked about 337 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,880 sort of bad brands jumping on the bandwagon but if the bandwagon is something that's good 338 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,360 who cares as long as they're doing it genuinely as long as they're doing it yeah exactly I mean I 339 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:36,280 didn't even care what their reason for doing it but if the if brands decide to get rid of the plastic 340 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,560 cellophane right around a box because they think that that is jumping on a bandwagon and by not 341 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,600 having that cellophane their products are have less plastic and it's cheaper for them to produce I 342 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:53,240 don't care why they do it just do it hmm no it's not so I think that sort of sometimes we have to 343 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:59,160 celebrate those things even if it's just it's commercial that's what I'm saying about our 344 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:05,160 industry like we do you have to sort of I think we have to stop condemning the commerciality of 345 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:10,120 things because I think sometimes we condemn people for making money that's a very British thing 346 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:17,160 yeah I think the Americans celebrate that a bit more whereas well given the election obviously 347 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:23,640 clearly they do but but I think that in a nice way I think we have to be able to sort of get 348 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:30,600 past that sort of where we condemn people for making commercial decisions yeah I think we sniff it 349 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,680 out I think well I always say there's two types of brands there's sort of trend brands and legacy 350 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,880 brands and generally the legacy brands are the ones that stand the test of time and the trend 351 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,800 brands are the ones that go in and out trend brands usually have a very very weak backbone weak 352 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,800 ethics weak store in the pan kind of they don't last long and we come out and then they go but 353 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,520 going from the teenage market to the menopause market I wonder if we could talk about that for 354 00:34:54,520 --> 00:35:01,640 a second because obviously it's valued at globally I believe at 15.4 billion yet a lot of women in 355 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:08,040 this bracket still feel unsupported by brands I mean how do you think that we can sort of better 356 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:13,960 cater to the needs of these women who are going through well I mean again it's a trade-off isn't 357 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:19,400 it it's like sort of do we market to these women and use the fact that they're going through menopause 358 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:25,160 just flog them another product that that worry I don't need yeah so that did worry me when this 359 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:32,600 all sort of came up about five six maybe a bit longer years ago when a lot of brands were starting 360 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:39,080 to turn some of the marketing around the products that they had already sold to women of a certain 361 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:46,760 age around the menopause like I'm glad we talk about it same but I think that there are some 362 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:53,480 products that are being marketed to a particular psychographic because I think the demographic 363 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,600 is kind of slightly limiting of a term because obviously you can have menopause at 40 or 60 364 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:03,320 or whatever and I think sometimes well actually because you can have different very you know I 365 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,160 have some friends that have gone through menopause without any medication at all some people that 366 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,920 really struggled with it like it's so varied so that thing is I'm kind I'm a little bit cynical 367 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,400 about marketing skin products to people with menopause because yes your skin does get drier but 368 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,560 just use a really good moisturizer like that no you don't have to have menopause on the front of 369 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,760 it to to tell me that that's a product that I should use I just need a really good moisturizer 370 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:34,200 the hair thing is slightly more worrying in that I do actually think there needs to be more 371 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,560 research done on what is a good hair product for someone with menopause because one of the reasons 372 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,960 why I went on HRT is because my mum and my grandmother didn't and they lost a lot of hair 373 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:51,160 and both had very thin hair my aunt who did go on HRT kept her full head of hair and I remember 374 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:56,680 when I was coming up to that sort of period in my life when I was in my sort of late 40s and I was 375 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:03,240 thinking when I get to that point I'm definitely taking the HRT I want my hair to remain thick 376 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:09,000 because I think both my grandmother and my mum who didn't take it lost their hair so I so I actually 377 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:15,640 think sure I get really dry skin at night I have to put willead of bloody skin food on my I didn't 378 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,040 mean willead of bloody skin but I mean bloody I have to put it on my I have to put it on my feet 379 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:27,080 I have to put it on my feet itch all night I get itchy like it's really frustrating but willead 380 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:32,600 of skin food is an amazing product that doesn't need to say menopause on the front of it it doesn't 381 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,480 but does it feel nice to feel acknowledged in that in that way rather than you know historically 382 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,720 obviously brands just marketed a product for like that you know the 20 something market does it nice 383 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:46,920 just is it nice to kind of just feel like a little bit seen in that sense you know the weird thing is 384 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:52,280 is that I feel like I'm invisible everywhere anyway I think you just have to embrace the 385 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,360 invisibility in a lot of ways sometimes as a woman of a certain age you're going to I could 386 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,280 nick stuff in a shop no one would ever catch me because no one ever looks you when I walk into 387 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,320 the shop anyway I don't know I think there's like there's a really that's a really multi-nourished 388 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:11,960 question because I don't want people to talk about it all the time because whilst I'm really 389 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:19,320 quite happy that there is greater conversation about it I want there to be greater conversation 390 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,560 about it because I want the medical professional that I go to see to understand what I'm doing 391 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,440 yeah that's what I was kind of driving at the moment we talked about it the more it's going to 392 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:32,520 have that trickle down effect there I think that's more around the medical and wellness thing I think 393 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:39,320 that when it gets into the cream that I buy then I think I start to feel it's a little bit much in 394 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:48,600 that I I when I first started feeling symptoms of menopause and I didn't know I felt the symptoms 395 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,240 I couldn't sleep I was having hot flushes and all that kind of stuff I kept going back to my doctor 396 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:56,280 saying something wrong something wrong something wrong for about two years I probably went five 397 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:02,680 times and nobody helped me at all until I actually Nadine Baggett came into my office and said listen 398 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,240 this is what's happening this is what you need I literally went to my doctor's the next day and I 399 00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:10,920 said right so I've spoken to someone who knows what the hell they're talking about and this is what 400 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,920 they told me I need so I'd like a prescription for this and this and it was game changing absolutely 401 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:22,120 game changing and now every time I feel a slight symptom I know more about it so I know to go back 402 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:28,200 so I noticed to go back so I changed the cream research like that though isn't it it's just I 403 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:35,000 mean it's it's bizarre because they doctors knew nothing didn't matter whether male female 50 60 404 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:43,720 or 20 made no difference so yes I feel that we as a beauty industry have done a lot around getting 405 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:51,800 the message out there and and really helping to support women across the country in recognizing 406 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:57,880 the fact that there's not something wrong with you you are just going through a period of your life 407 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:05,480 where your body reacts in a certain way to hormone balances that's just what it is 408 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,160 but I'm all my all my friends have very very different experiences and we're all on very different 409 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,320 cocktails and medication and some are often some and it never even went on it and all kinds of stuff 410 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:23,880 the skin issue is less of an issue than the hair issue and I think that we market and we sell more 411 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:30,600 around the skin issue in a way than we do around the issue yeah I mean with the rise of scalp care 412 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,480 hopefully that's gonna that's gonna start to be thinning hair I think people's hair thins and I 413 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:41,000 think that that is a that's you know I mean mine has a bit but I'm just surprised that brands in 414 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,760 the hair care game aren't having more of a conversation around the thickening of one's hair 415 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,680 for the basis for people with menopause that's what I mean it's like I feel like certain businesses 416 00:40:52,680 --> 00:41:00,600 have adopted um are using it in order to reframe products for women of a certain age but I don't 417 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,640 think the hair market's caught on to it as much as they could and if um if a brand is sort of 418 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:10,360 looking to enter the menopause care market what would your kind of what main advice would you give 419 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,440 them well again just don't market something because you think that you know oh my god we're 420 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:20,280 struggling do some research you know find a solution only now are we starting to hear and I'm only 421 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,520 reading things in the news about male pattern baldness what about female pattern baldness 422 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:30,440 who's doing that research you know um I I worked for a guy called Shuemura Mr. 423 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:36,840 Weymour had said to me back in the mid 80s that women would start to lose their hair like men 424 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:42,600 because of the stress that they were under with the increased presence in the workplace and with the 425 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:51,160 um hormone imbalance that they that and the and the increase in um life expectancy and he's 426 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:56,120 absolutely right he was right right now he's we could have it all we're bloody doing it all 427 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:03,400 exactly into the ground exactly and I think that so I so I do again I think that that is the thing 428 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:09,560 what I don't want to see is a brand go here's our cream this one is for you know this one it 429 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,920 it does what it does but here's one for menopause and it's exactly the same thing I do you know what 430 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,240 I mean I just feel like that that's where I start to get a bit annoyed and we're almost at the end 431 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:24,200 of our time but I know you said about creating like celebrating the small wins are important but 432 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:30,440 if you could see one major change in the beauty industry what would it be um I would like to see 433 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:36,280 more women more people of color more people from the lgbtqia community more people in your 434 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,640 know divergence at the around the board table around the boardroom I'd like to see 435 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:51,160 people like me sitting around the table and not and I think that's very important I think career 436 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:56,040 progression is really important because I think we'll have a much better industry I think the 437 00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:07,640 trickle down effect having uh um multi-ethnic multi-gender multi you know um you know just just 438 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,520 people from a wider group of characteristics sitting around more people with physical disabilities 439 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:21,160 sitting around the table you know I think we I think we won't better ourselves as an industry 440 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:27,880 until the people at the top come from a variety of different backgrounds where they can have 441 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:36,200 constructive conflict around a table so that what lands on our shelves represents the world 442 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:43,320 in a better way you know hopefully attitudes are changing um slowly but surely I really hope so 443 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,560 we've come to the end of our time but thank you so much Millie for joining me and um for your 444 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,800 insights it's been so lovely chatting with you and hopefully we can work on that again soon 445 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:59,320 lovely to chat 446 00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:10,040 I hope you enjoyed that episode all links will be in the show notes and feel free to visit 447 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:15,720 smartbeautycreative.com or visit us over on instagram to find out more about what we do 448 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:20,440 and if you enjoyed listening please don't forget to rate and review smart beauty on iQings as it 449 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:46,520 helps people find us see you next time