Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. I'm your host, Vyla Levy, beauty journalist
and founder of Copilot branding agency, Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to create your
brand voice and craft the story behind it. Today I'm incredibly excited to be joined by
Millie Kendall OBE, serial entrepreneur and CEO of the British Beauty Council. She's one of the
most influential voices driving change in the beauty industry today. Millie has been a force in
beauty for over three decades championing inclusivity, transparency and positive messaging
across the industry. Through her work with the British Beauty Council, Millie advocates for a
beauty landscape that not only celebrates diversity but also supports the unique needs and
experiences of people at every stage of their lives. In our conversation we'll delve into some
critical questions around aging and representation in beauty, a topic I know Millie is passionate
about. We'll explore the industry's shifting attitudes towards aging, the rise of pro-aging
messaging and the way brands can genuinely support all ages instead of reinforcing stereotypes.
Millie will also share her insights on the booming menopause care market, the challenges women
face and the council's role in promoting beauty standards that empower rather than limit. Millie,
thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. I hope I live up to your expectations.
So how has the beauty industry's approach to aging changed over the past decade in your
experience and what do you think has driven this shift? I mean I think and I hate to say this but
I think it's a lot of it is commercial really and I think that you've and a lot of the larger
companies adopted it reasonably soon when they realised that the spending power was with the
sort of over 40s. Yeah I think that there is disposable income, there is younger people are
less wealthy than older people at the same age. I think that there is, we used to think disposable
income was with the sort of young 20 year olds who were still living at home because people lived
at home longer and so they had more money to spend but actually that sort of shifted probably about
maybe at the turn of the century this weird thing to say when it became very apparent that
this sort of over 40s, over 50s, over 60s people were living longer and actually they were the ones
that held the wealth and so there was a lot of talk 20 or years ago about how the beauty
industry should engage with those women that are a little bit older that had more money to spend
and I think that so you see a lot of advertising people at Adam McDowell who has long been a face
in beauty campaigns who is now still the face in beauty campaigns but with her beautiful gray hair
or Jane Fonda who's been a beauty icon for decades and decades and decades still walking
the red carpet or the catwalk and still being the face of beauty campaigns. So I think that
as cynical as it sounds the shift is very commercial and it's not necessarily always based on
the needs of the older consumer, it's based on the fact that we've got the money.
No definitely and there's still kind of these age hysteria types that the beauty industry has been
criticised for perpetuating. I mean how do you think that we can move forward from that because
we still see like the term anti-aging everywhere and like there was an advert I saw on the tube
the other day like you know this is how you look 21 or something like that and I was like seriously
2024. Yeah I think the interesting thing is is that we're all chasing the
fountain of youth aren't we so and I think that the whatever you call it we are all still looking
back on pictures of ourselves thinking wow I look happier healthier younger you know in those pictures
when I was in my 20s but life was very different back then. I experienced all the stress. I don't
know if that's something that will change really overnight. I think that that's I think I think
it's about having a combination of both. I know for a fact that I accept myself much better now
than I did back then. I think that while I may not look as young as I did when I was in my 20s
I'm much more confident and comfortable in myself so I think it's about and I actually think the
wellness industry might be the key to this because it might not be how you look it might be more
about how you feel. How you feel yeah and that might you know and that might not be about whether
I still get out there in my hip hurts in the morning you know and that's not pleasant and that
is part of aging but I'm much fitter I exercise more I'm less nasty to my body I'm more appreciative
of the nooks and crannies and the wrinkles and the flab and the skin elasticity and I'm kinder to
myself and I do think that the wellness industry will play a big part in this and it's not just
about the supplements and stuff like that albeit that I think that that will be a part of it I take
I drink my simproven in the morning I take a tablespoon of the most disgusting seamos before
I've even drunk a cup of tea I only have one coffee a day I do Pilates and I have a trainer and I
play tennis and I'm active I still go out in the evenings but I'm just kinder to myself and I think
that that's where will will strike the balance I do not think that the anybody will ever be able to
tell somebody of my age not to that you shouldn't want to look useful I just don't that's a reasonable
thing to say I look at those pictures and I think my god I was hot when I was 20
I think I'm 57 so it's like I have to figure out a way of feeling hot now not why I'm
about how I look I think it's about just looking fabulous for your age isn't it I think that from
my perspective about I'm about 1040 and I think it's just about looking I don't want to look 21
but I just want to look less knackered like I've got a toddler and you know I think I've aged
about 10 years in the last like yeah wait wait till that toddler gets to their teens then you look
knackered let me tell you oh my gosh I thought having young kids was exhausting having teenagers
that go out at night and then you're two o'clock in the morning you're like where the hell are they
you know that's stressful um well it's all stressful actually having children is stressful
but yeah I totally get it yeah um yeah but I think that like you say with the wellness industry
it's about kind of products that make you feel good as opposed to it's more about feeling good
as opposed to looking good and I find if I feel better in my body I feel better about my body
if that makes sense so far I hit the gym it's not to look like J.Lo it's to just you know if I you
know like after a run you feel amazing and then I kind of have a better relationship with my body
as a result do you kind of see more people leaning towards that um if that makes sense I do and also
things like sleep like things like as I've gotten older I mean I don't know why but in my 20s I thought
not sleeping was like the coolest thing ever now it's like I mean the other night because of the
election I went to bed like one o'clock in the morning woke up at five I had four hours sleep
I mean I look like I've been run over by a vehicle I I think that you know sleep exercise oh sorry my
phone keeps trying to I don't know I need to put my phone on disturb that's another thing the stresses
of bone right all of that for sure bones constantly being on all of that kind of stuff it's it's
distressing and I think that exercise and sleep are really important I do I really do think that
no 100% so hopefully that kind of feeds into this sort of pro-aging message that we're trying to
you know move towards I mean do you think that you know the companies that are doing it it is
genuine or do you think it's just another kind of marketing ploy at the moment I think there'll
be a combination I think there'll be some some people that are really really genuine I mean I'll
say like you know double I double A I think are really genuine and I think that actually how they
how they integrate internal well-being and the outside physical stuff I think is really amazing
and I think that and actually just having and going back to that company particularly because
we I've sort of spent a lot of time with them and I think that how they how they I mean they call
their business I think they refer to it as active aging and I think that's how and and actually
their products and their treatments and how they kind of integrate inner health and outer well-being
I actually think it's good for young people as well because a lot of it's based on gut and
microbiome so I think that I think that some businesses absolutely genuinely are
are really promoting age and well-being I think that some businesses will jump on it the bandwagon
of course to commercially gain from it but we tend to sniff it out eventually those
businesses that are you know that aren't genuine that don't have you know I call it a backbone
where they don't have that sort of the genuine it's not part of their DNA of their the right ethos
or whatever it's shallow and it's we sniff it out eventually they don't last I mean they might make
money but they don't last they frame it as a choice well you don't have to do this but if you want
to here are the products it feels a disingenuous yeah I mean this is a fact is a go again back to
the fact that despite the fact that we're in a business where we are we feel as people the work
in the industry that we're doing we're for the greater good and we're helping people's well-being
and we're helping them to feel confident and wonderful the fact is we are part of an industry
that sells product to consumers so we are in a commercial environment so people are always
going to try and take advantage of that for sure and I think there's always going to be that toxic
element that's in everything that doesn't that's in the food industry that's in the fashion that's
in the real estate industry you know when you want to see a flat and then you get 50 000 estate
agents calling you every five minutes and a texting yeah it's like it's like everyone's trying to
sell you something so we just have to be sort of almost emboldened to sort of say look this is what
consumerism is about we were living in the 20th century where every single thing we touch my water
bottle is about trying to flog me something it's just the way it is you know we have to be bolder
than that we have to be stronger than that and say I'm not going to buy into it so you know that's for
us to manage really definitely and at the same time you know we're talking about pro-aging but
then there's a scary number of like young people getting like lip fillers and Botox and injectables
and I know that you with the British beauty council are trying your best to help regulate that
so it's there's more sort of legislation in place to protect people what else is the British
beauty council doing to help with this sort of stem the tide yeah I mean with fillers and Botox
at such a young age because it plants the seed that aging is this sort of toxic thing that you
need to avoid at all costs yeah I mean the weird thing is is that there's two parts to that one is
about aging so you think like young people and I would say those are more in their late 20s are
looking at Botox and fillers and stuff like that I think laser treatments you know laser
facials are safe and I think they're actually very very helpful useful and do great work you know
that I think that's quite amazing that that bit of it I think is very dangerous but what we've done
basically is we've managed to get Botox and fillers bang for under 18 year olds so that's
really good that was the first step now we're in a process of department for health and social care
in terms of getting this bill pushed forward obviously with a change of government always
very difficult because you kind of have to pick up where you left off and it's challenging because
um that the it was there was a big consultation we had record amounts of response from industry
around the consultation the idea is to have like a uh green is okay orange is a little bit not sure
about and red was definitely we shouldn't be doing and I feel that Botox and fillers should not be
carried out by anyone without a medical license agreed because there is no redress if something
goes wrong the fact of the matter is is that the horse had already bolted before the beauty council
came to fruition so a lot of people are already doing that carrying out those treatments and so
the best we can probably hope for is that if somebody without a medical license is doing that
treatment there is medical oversight on the premises which I think again is really important
in terms of because because redress is really important because because obviously if something
does go wrong we've got a big problem back to the other point about the the young people getting
those treatments people in their late 20s I think are probably looking at aging and like I said I
think there'll be machinery like lasers and other treatments that they can probably start to look at
if that's a concern I don't think it should be but if that is a concern I think that younger people
getting it done that's not about aging that is about making your face look different and that I am
wholeheartedly against because you have not grown into your face at that age and having
various different things done to your face to change how you look having cheek fillers or
chin filler or lip stun at the early age of you know in your early 20s I think is
pooling sorry and I think people are going to age we don't we don't know how that generation are
going to then reach middle age with all of that all of those procedures you know because they
don't they're not like the likes of these reality stars that are billionaires that can go and have
things corrected and have fillers removed properly they can't afford the best surgeons in town
not a single person I know that's had it done at that age that has not regretted it 10 years later
and I you know and I'll be really honest here part of my sort of um issue with it is my mum
was a big fan of plastic surgery um and we're talking like my mum had plastic surgery in the
70s when it was like you know she might have been the first person to ever have had certain things
done you know in the UK I mean she was a really brave very brave but she was never satisfied
and she was never happy and you're chasing this rainbow this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow
and I don't know and I feel like it stems from insecurity but it perpetuates insecurity
and the fact is is that when you get to a certain age as you just said you feel more confident
about yourself you start to be learn to live with yourself and you know I don't dislike the fact
that maybe my nose is a little wide or my top lip is a little thin or I don't really care anymore
because it's not really life's really not about that um so I I don't know I just I think that
there should be I think there needs to be some sort of psychological or at least some basic
assessment before somebody has a treatment and I feel that there needs to be medical oversight
if anyone is performing one of those treatments that is not a registered medical professional
and I also think that it's a bit big challenge in terms of distribution because
botulinum toxins that they're not then they shouldn't be used by anyone that's not a
medical professional but clearly they are being used so there is obviously a sort of
distribution issue they said that right botulinum toxin anyway I don't I don't want to use it by
its brand name because that is just botox is a brand name it's not actually what it's called but
but but the fact is is that there's obviously some slightly dodgy distribution going on
because no one should be using it that's not a medical professional because it's a prescription
drug yes and you're literally injecting poison into your face like why would you with somebody
that isn't um it's medically qualified I mean I've never had fillers I mean and oftentimes I look
at friends of mine that have had it done and obviously something really brilliant ways and very
subtle and but I just very subtle fillers but yeah just you can't really tell unless it's kind of
well I mean it's that sort of like sucking and sucking up and see I'm not really prepared to
wait and to see what if it goes wrong I could be that 1% it just doesn't sit in the right place
I'm terrified of something happening that I can't control I I don't know I just wouldn't trust I've
got a real issue with trust obviously but yeah it's impacting the beauty industry in a way because
people are jumping to immediately getting injectables and fillers rather than embarking on like a good
skincare regime for example as soon as people think oh I'm in my late 20s I should start thinking
of an anti-aging routine they immediately jump to injectables I'm hoping I think it's become cheap
and I think that that's a problem I think that it's become a bit cheap I really hope that
there's two things like I said one is if you're looking at anti-aging there are certain resurfacing
techniques with laser and you know actives and skincare that probably are better than
Botox and fillers in my opinion and a good regime and a good facialist that uses laser I think probably
is better option I think when you come to fillers you only need fillers when you lose volume and the
fact is you don't lose volume at the age of 20 so if you're using fillers at that age it's not
anti-aging it's because you want your face to look different and people are using them for
sort of facial restructure as opposed to yeah just adding volume yeah because it's kind of it's an
easy sort of alternative to a facelift you can just come in get a few injections and then you know
have it done on your lunch break as opposed to yeah yeah yeah but you know you've got to be damn
sure that that person knows what they're doing I mean again I just wouldn't trust somebody I'd be I'm
I mean the amount of times I've been offered something like that and I've gotten to the front
door and I thought you know what I don't really want this and I've walked away but I think I think
that you know what I can only hope for with the British Beauty Council is that the consultation
continues and that we get some benchmark for quality of service because what happens is the
cheaper the procedure the less qualified the practitioner the less professional we look as
an industry overall and that's what I'm concerned about is I'm I want to professionalize the industry
if it means that we have to do some sort of licensing scheme or whatever it might whatever it
might land at I'm not sure but I would like to make sure that we're professionalized and I think
that there isn't really many beauty therapists I know that don't want to see that so I think that
if we have to and also that means that those treatments should be more expensive they should be
harder to get you know they should it just shouldn't be on the street corner I mean I know on the
Archway Road there is a flipping barbers with a sandwich board outside offering fat loss injections
how is that possible in our country yeah and I and I've seen it on on the internet where I've seen
like they've been offering like Botox and fillers I'm sorry that's a barber shop on the Archway
Road what the hell are they doing that's just not acceptable to me definitely it's kind of dystopian
in a way if you think about it really is it really is I mean we do have to put a stop to it
anyway my my my I guess the thing is is that what I would like in an ideal world I would like
there to be some sort of licensing scheme I would like there to be some sort of medical
oversight on the premises in case something goes wrong I would like to see a register where there
can be some redress if something does go wrong where people are stricken off if they continually
practice badly I mean look at that Brazilian bum lift situation oh my gosh a woman died I mean
it's just horrendous you know we shouldn't be getting to that point no there has to be some
there has to be some halt and also I think we should start looking at you know what what lasers
can do because they're relatively safe the the companies that that lease or sell them to beauty
practitioners give very very good training I think there's a lot that can be done with the laser
that we should start we should start adopting and being more positive about and and sort of
opening that up a little bit because I think that in combination with a good skincare regime can do
a lot no I agree but there's so much misinformation about lasers sort of floating around and it's
really difficult to sort of regulate the kind of information that gets disseminated especially we
like you know I think I read something recently about how like LEDs there was a study that LEDs
didn't work or something like that or it was just a gimmick and it's just you know there there are
sort of studies that show that there is kind of some sort of science behind it and there are kind
of proven results from it um so what I'm asking is like how do you know how do you sort of try and
tackle that the amount of sort of wrong information that is abundant on I mean it you it's very difficult
to do that because obviously because of social media I mean what what we do and we're very very
and I and I am very strict with this we don't put anything out that's not factual so we kind of
we you know I sort of always say to people we're a bit like Switzerland where we take no sides
everything's a fact we can't as British Beauty Council it's really very important to us that there
is no um that there is no misinformation I learned that very quickly during COVID that there were
a lot of sort of Facebook groups or you know people on social media saying a lot of nonsense
about what was going on and I just said look if there's one thing that we can do and one thing
that we need to do is make sure that everything that we're saying is absolutely factual whether that
be data driven or um around aesthetics or ingredients or whatever it might be it has to be fact
and that you know you come down you come under a lot of criticism you know when I when we did that
report encouraged to change about sustainability and I had a lot of people kind of contacting me
saying you know don't put this report out it will kill the industry and I'm like we've got to tell
we've got to tell the truth really why did they think it would kill the industry because
because obviously there is a real problem with our reliance on plastic but we know that we can't
bury the information it is a fact so say it and then the cat's out the bag and we as an industry
then have a responsibility to fix it and do something about it so that's what we work towards
not saying we have to fix it overnight but we have to do something about it and so I think
oftentimes I think we're an industry that has been that has relied on myth and misinformation
for a very long time we use terminology that is incorrect or is used as marketing and even back
to when I had Ruby and Millie I remember when when we were designing Ruby and Millie and I said I
want all the packaging to be clear and I want to show what's in a product and somebody said to me
at the company that was developing the products going but then people will know how little there is
in the pack and I was like well then people will that will see that everybody has too much bloody
packaging I don't care let them see how much product is in the pack and they were like oh no you
can't do that you can't show what's inside it was just astounding to me like this is our industry
with conning people they buy a bottle and there's a tiny little bit of you know stuff inside it
that's ridiculous and then things like dummy ingredients so like a company will advertise
like the ingredient on the front of the pack when really they've got a small amount in the formula
that does nothing just like legally say oh this is a keratin shampoo even though the
keratin is a hyaluronic acid thing isn't it I mean you know what unless you've got like something
under eight ingredients let me tell you the amount of hyaluronic acid in that product is
minuscule because if you I always look at that whole ingredient diet thing so when I look at the
back of a product the fewer ingredients that are listed on the inky list the better I think the
product is yeah it's like going to a restaurant if they only cook like four or five things you know
it's going to be good whereas yeah exactly exactly yeah exactly um do you think that there's so much
smoke and mirrors because it's predominantly women who are buying these products and the way we've
historically marketed to those women using very patronizing and fantasizing language which is
hopefully that's why I set up Smart Beauty to try and change that and help brands communicate with
their customers in a more sophisticated and informative way rather than oh this is like a
magical cream or this is a miracle shampoo or whatever and using these sort of very childish
terminology without actually telling the consumer what's in the product because some like products
I think it's actually more I think it's actually more of a misogynistic sexist thing and I and I
don't want to come out as all feminist but I am a bit um but I think that's because and you know we
just did this study with this report that we did a beauty industry it looks like you and
no surprise obviously but white people and male and men increase at board level whereas every
other characteristic decreases at board level so you've got a lot of men making decisions
and when men speak to women or when they're selling something to women they're going to pick up on
the sort of again the insecurities of women I mean look you know for you know it's like
almost human nature that we prepare ourselves to be attractive to men you know as females majority
of females let's say not not all but you know in of itself no and I do but that is the relationship
between a man and a woman you know men have to look a certain way to be sort of virile to women
and women have to be a certain way to look like they're going to be men are under pressure
yeah men are under pressure in a completely different way but I think that when men are
marketing products to women there is a certain language that they use that makes us feel insecure
and barrier and needing of the product and I'm not saying those products because my my theory is
that I think those products actually make me feel good so I actually don't really care what
they're called you know but I do actually like the way they smell feel and make me feel and I
so I like to think I don't buy them based on the narrative because I think a lot of times it's sort
of a false hood but having worked in the medium of this of this fine industry for a very long
time I do know that it makes me feel good to put a little bit of a out cream on my lips you know
I don't care what it's called don't even really know what that means but you know it's but I do
think that that's quite misogynistic actually at the way that terminology is I mean I you know you
probably know because as somebody that writes a lot of copywriting a lot of male products are the
same as female products it's just a copywriting on the front of pack it's like a different pink
tax something it's called isn't it? Yeah so they're writing something for a woman and then you take
the same product and you can write it for a man and you can stick one in a black bottle and maybe
make it smell of sandalwood and you can put one in a pink bottle smell of rose and but it's the same
damn product actually at the day so it is by surprise for all the women. Absolutely and the
other thing is is that our industry is incredibly gendered which is and it's very binary and I find
that quite frustrating there's not something that we're going to change overnight you know it is
something that there are so many stakeholders that are involved in that whether that be
you know brands and retailers and stuff like that it's the way it's been for years you know you go
to a hairdressing salon or you go to a barbers it depends whether you're male or female. Yeah
for the most part just saying for the most part but um but yeah it's not going to change like the
perfume industry for example we're moving away from that with the rise of niche and the rise of
black gender neutral sense and hair salons are changing you know sometimes it's like you know why
is a men's haircut cheaper than a women's or you know why is that haircuts a haircut um so you know
I know Trevor Sorby's put in this sort of gender neutral you know sort of uh non-gendered pricing
structure so I think there's I think there are some changes um I mean with that I assumed that
men had shorter hair and they need to get their haircut more often but yeah that might be that
yeah maybe but the fact is that I used to be a hairdresser and I have to tell you that men's hair
is really bloody difficult because it's that you know um so yeah I don't know I think there's I think
there's a lot that needs to change it again do you know the one thing I've learned about the British
Beauty Council is you can make you have to have small you have to celebrate small wins because
there are small things that you can do because everything takes a really really long time
you're trying to basically you're on a jet ski and you're trying to stop the Titanic from heading
for an iceberg and it's really challenging and I'm doing that Ruby and I used to say that when
we had Ruby and Millie I mean we've been doing it for a very long time um and it's you know
you have to and I have a lot of respect for a lot of those larger companies it's very very difficult
for them to make changes but a lot of them are doing actually a lot more than you expect them to
be doing no definitely and now like more indie brands are popping up where that is embedded into
their DNA to be sustainable and to have all these values like you know inclusion and diversity
that it's absolutely scrambling around trying to trying to turn the ship around I I do think that
you know I I think we're becoming more honest I think we're becoming more transparent as an
industry I think in the UK we do it far better than our other countries in terms of transparency
and giving people agency to make those decisions I think we're much better at it I think we've got a
much better um and stronger cohort of people that want natural beauty products that are made with
integrity and ethics and I think that you know I was I was talking to uh Charles Denton from the
Body Shop yesterday and he was saying oftentimes the the the what you know the pace at which they
operate is slightly slower because of the integrity that's built into the brand you know making sure
that supply chain is checked and that um that things are carried out in an ethical manner and
and and he was saying something that I didn't actually know that when actually Netorodix
sold the business and L'Oreal took it over that part of what was sold was she built in that they
maintain that integrity I had they stuck with it the whole time throughout their ownership of that
brand and because that was part of the deal and I think that you know I think that we shouldn't
sell ourselves short I think oftentimes we look at America or Europe and we think are we like them
but we're not always like them we don't use as many marketing buzzwords we're you know I think
we're a little better I I really do believe that and at the end of the day I think consumers vote
with their feet don't they they're more informed and sophisticated we become in our kind of buying
choices which I think a lot of people are the more we're going to move away from brands that try and
market to us the old-fashioned way where it's all like smoke and mirrors and brands will catch on
as well because they'll see that we're not buying into that anymore so it can be an organic change
as opposed to something we need to necessarily rally against you know you saw we talked about
sort of bad brands jumping on the bandwagon but if the bandwagon is something that's good
who cares as long as they're doing it genuinely as long as they're doing it yeah exactly I mean I
didn't even care what their reason for doing it but if the if brands decide to get rid of the plastic
cellophane right around a box because they think that that is jumping on a bandwagon and by not
having that cellophane their products are have less plastic and it's cheaper for them to produce I
don't care why they do it just do it hmm no it's not so I think that sort of sometimes we have to
celebrate those things even if it's just it's commercial that's what I'm saying about our
industry like we do you have to sort of I think we have to stop condemning the commerciality of
things because I think sometimes we condemn people for making money that's a very British thing
yeah I think the Americans celebrate that a bit more whereas well given the election obviously
clearly they do but but I think that in a nice way I think we have to be able to sort of get
past that sort of where we condemn people for making commercial decisions yeah I think we sniff it
out I think well I always say there's two types of brands there's sort of trend brands and legacy
brands and generally the legacy brands are the ones that stand the test of time and the trend
brands are the ones that go in and out trend brands usually have a very very weak backbone weak
ethics weak store in the pan kind of they don't last long and we come out and then they go but
going from the teenage market to the menopause market I wonder if we could talk about that for
a second because obviously it's valued at globally I believe at 15.4 billion yet a lot of women in
this bracket still feel unsupported by brands I mean how do you think that we can sort of better
cater to the needs of these women who are going through well I mean again it's a trade-off isn't
it it's like sort of do we market to these women and use the fact that they're going through menopause
just flog them another product that that worry I don't need yeah so that did worry me when this
all sort of came up about five six maybe a bit longer years ago when a lot of brands were starting
to turn some of the marketing around the products that they had already sold to women of a certain
age around the menopause like I'm glad we talk about it same but I think that there are some
products that are being marketed to a particular psychographic because I think the demographic
is kind of slightly limiting of a term because obviously you can have menopause at 40 or 60
or whatever and I think sometimes well actually because you can have different very you know I
have some friends that have gone through menopause without any medication at all some people that
really struggled with it like it's so varied so that thing is I'm kind I'm a little bit cynical
about marketing skin products to people with menopause because yes your skin does get drier but
just use a really good moisturizer like that no you don't have to have menopause on the front of
it to to tell me that that's a product that I should use I just need a really good moisturizer
the hair thing is slightly more worrying in that I do actually think there needs to be more
research done on what is a good hair product for someone with menopause because one of the reasons
why I went on HRT is because my mum and my grandmother didn't and they lost a lot of hair
and both had very thin hair my aunt who did go on HRT kept her full head of hair and I remember
when I was coming up to that sort of period in my life when I was in my sort of late 40s and I was
thinking when I get to that point I'm definitely taking the HRT I want my hair to remain thick
because I think both my grandmother and my mum who didn't take it lost their hair so I so I actually
think sure I get really dry skin at night I have to put willead of bloody skin food on my I didn't
mean willead of bloody skin but I mean bloody I have to put it on my I have to put it on my feet
I have to put it on my feet itch all night I get itchy like it's really frustrating but willead
of skin food is an amazing product that doesn't need to say menopause on the front of it it doesn't
but does it feel nice to feel acknowledged in that in that way rather than you know historically
obviously brands just marketed a product for like that you know the 20 something market does it nice
just is it nice to kind of just feel like a little bit seen in that sense you know the weird thing is
is that I feel like I'm invisible everywhere anyway I think you just have to embrace the
invisibility in a lot of ways sometimes as a woman of a certain age you're going to I could
nick stuff in a shop no one would ever catch me because no one ever looks you when I walk into
the shop anyway I don't know I think there's like there's a really that's a really multi-nourished
question because I don't want people to talk about it all the time because whilst I'm really
quite happy that there is greater conversation about it I want there to be greater conversation
about it because I want the medical professional that I go to see to understand what I'm doing
yeah that's what I was kind of driving at the moment we talked about it the more it's going to
have that trickle down effect there I think that's more around the medical and wellness thing I think
that when it gets into the cream that I buy then I think I start to feel it's a little bit much in
that I I when I first started feeling symptoms of menopause and I didn't know I felt the symptoms
I couldn't sleep I was having hot flushes and all that kind of stuff I kept going back to my doctor
saying something wrong something wrong something wrong for about two years I probably went five
times and nobody helped me at all until I actually Nadine Baggett came into my office and said listen
this is what's happening this is what you need I literally went to my doctor's the next day and I
said right so I've spoken to someone who knows what the hell they're talking about and this is what
they told me I need so I'd like a prescription for this and this and it was game changing absolutely
game changing and now every time I feel a slight symptom I know more about it so I know to go back
so I noticed to go back so I changed the cream research like that though isn't it it's just I
mean it's it's bizarre because they doctors knew nothing didn't matter whether male female 50 60
or 20 made no difference so yes I feel that we as a beauty industry have done a lot around getting
the message out there and and really helping to support women across the country in recognizing
the fact that there's not something wrong with you you are just going through a period of your life
where your body reacts in a certain way to hormone balances that's just what it is
but I'm all my all my friends have very very different experiences and we're all on very different
cocktails and medication and some are often some and it never even went on it and all kinds of stuff
the skin issue is less of an issue than the hair issue and I think that we market and we sell more
around the skin issue in a way than we do around the issue yeah I mean with the rise of scalp care
hopefully that's gonna that's gonna start to be thinning hair I think people's hair thins and I
think that that is a that's you know I mean mine has a bit but I'm just surprised that brands in
the hair care game aren't having more of a conversation around the thickening of one's hair
for the basis for people with menopause that's what I mean it's like I feel like certain businesses
have adopted um are using it in order to reframe products for women of a certain age but I don't
think the hair market's caught on to it as much as they could and if um if a brand is sort of
looking to enter the menopause care market what would your kind of what main advice would you give
them well again just don't market something because you think that you know oh my god we're
struggling do some research you know find a solution only now are we starting to hear and I'm only
reading things in the news about male pattern baldness what about female pattern baldness
who's doing that research you know um I I worked for a guy called Shuemura Mr.
Weymour had said to me back in the mid 80s that women would start to lose their hair like men
because of the stress that they were under with the increased presence in the workplace and with the
um hormone imbalance that they that and the and the increase in um life expectancy and he's
absolutely right he was right right now he's we could have it all we're bloody doing it all
exactly into the ground exactly and I think that so I so I do again I think that that is the thing
what I don't want to see is a brand go here's our cream this one is for you know this one it
it does what it does but here's one for menopause and it's exactly the same thing I do you know what
I mean I just feel like that that's where I start to get a bit annoyed and we're almost at the end
of our time but I know you said about creating like celebrating the small wins are important but
if you could see one major change in the beauty industry what would it be um I would like to see
more women more people of color more people from the lgbtqia community more people in your
know divergence at the around the board table around the boardroom I'd like to see
people like me sitting around the table and not and I think that's very important I think career
progression is really important because I think we'll have a much better industry I think the
trickle down effect having uh um multi-ethnic multi-gender multi you know um you know just just
people from a wider group of characteristics sitting around more people with physical disabilities
sitting around the table you know I think we I think we won't better ourselves as an industry
until the people at the top come from a variety of different backgrounds where they can have
constructive conflict around a table so that what lands on our shelves represents the world
in a better way you know hopefully attitudes are changing um slowly but surely I really hope so
we've come to the end of our time but thank you so much Millie for joining me and um for your
insights it's been so lovely chatting with you and hopefully we can work on that again soon
lovely to chat
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