Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. I'm your host, Vyla Levy, beauty journalist
and founder of Copilot branding agency, Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to create your
brand voice and craft the story behind it. Today I'm thrilled to welcome Estée Lalonde
to the podcast, a voice, a face and a founder many of us know and admire in the beauty world.
Estée first captured attention as one of the early digital influencers in beauty with her
relatable down-to-earth personality and inspiring content that resonated deeply with her audience.
Since then she's evolved from content creator to brand founder with Mirror Water,
a brand that reflects her journey of self-discovery and commitment to wellness and mindfulness.
Over the years Estée has become a pioneer in redefining beauty and self-care,
shifting the focus towards authenticity, feeling good and living with intention.
Her work continues to inspire countless followers and fans around the world.
Today we'll delve into her incredible journey from navigating the beauty industry as one of its
first influences to the challenges and triumphs of launching her own brand and what it truly means
to stay authentic in an ever-changing digital landscape. Estée, thank you so much for joining me today.
Wow, what an intro.
Mirror Water has become such a unique and personal expression of you from your values to your experiences.
So looking back, how has that journey from starting out as a content creator to now a brand
founder shaped who you are today? What do you say?
Well, when I started creating contents about 15 years ago, I had no idea what was in store for me.
I truly started doing it as a hobby because I wanted to share and I wanted to connect with other people
and there was no sort of ulterior motive. I never thought about all the followers and the money
and that sort of thing, which I think is obviously what the industry has become and it's exciting and amazing.
But I really was doing it for myself and for anyone who might connect with it.
So over time, I think when I started sharing my life, I was so young, I was 19 and I shared a lot of things
and it shaped me in every single possible way. I mean, most 19-year-olds don't share the ins and outs of their
first relationship. They don't share the ups and downs of their mental health.
I had a platform of people almost looking to me, not necessarily for guidance, but for reassurance
that there was someone else out there experiencing the highs and lows of life, I guess.
And because it was such a new thing, there weren't that many people doing it.
So I can completely understand why that whole YouTube thing took off at that time in terms of vlogging.
When I look back to it now of how it shaped me as a 34-year-old woman, there's been so many positives
and negatives, I think, of having a life lived online. Some of the positives obviously include
having this amazing career, having a following of people who truly get me. Sometimes when I meet
people on the street or whatever, it's like running into a long-lost friend, even though I've never
met them, but there's just like a kinship there. And some of the negative ways it's impacted me is
it's actually made my anxiety probably a lot worse because of the pressure of it all. But
equally, I know that sharing my mental health is helping other people. And maybe some other negatives are...
Well, if I talk about this a lot in therapy, I don't sometimes know the difference between the real
estate and the estate belongs that I put online. And so sometimes there's a disconnect there
within myself. So I mean, I could talk about that a lot, but those are just some broad examples.
And do you think kind of looking back, you would have been a bit more kind of...
I wouldn't say like closed off, but would you have approached things differently within
terms of how sort of open, authentic you were? Did you think that, you know, now knowing that
there's a bit of a personal cost? I mean, it's great that people were able to relate to you
and that you were able to sort of put content out there that people felt less alone. But for
your sake, would you say that you would perhaps have done things differently knowing sort of what
the consequences your anxiety perhaps were? The thing is, like, if I would have done things
differently, I wouldn't be where I am today. I think if I was starting today, I wouldn't do it
the same way, but obviously I was much younger and I didn't understand that. I don't think anyone
really understood what it feels like to be 15 years down the line and having everything you've
ever shared still be available on the internet. You know, any person I meet can Google me and they
can see what I've been up to. And especially for my personal life, like say I go on a date with
someone, they Google me, they can tell that I was previously engaged, they can see that I previously
did this. You know, it's like, it's like the next level, it's a next level look into somebody's life
that is, it's quite hard to deal with, you know, like I have to manage that with every single person
I meet, you know, sometimes. So that's a lot. I don't think I would do it differently,
because that was just of the time, but I'm definitely a lot more conscious of it going forward.
Yeah, particularly as a brand founder, I imagine, is like the brand ambassador. I mean, I think there's
a lot of pressure on particularly female founders to be like, quite and quite authentic.
How do you kind of balance that? Because I think that, like you say, there can be a cost of being
too authentic. And do we really have to be authentic to be likable? Like, is there a balance between
having that sort of level of authenticity and being kind of strategic with how you manage that,
manage your personal image and putting yourself out there?
People always say they want authenticity, but I honestly think people can't handle authenticity
because it's the truth of it all is messy. And there's so much judgment. And, you know,
even if I talk about my brand and I say like, I am so stressed with that, people will say,
wow, it must be really stressful making body scrubs for a living. You know, like you get that
feedback. And it's like, there's always so much context to something. And obviously, everything's
relative and everybody's stress is relative. And, you know, I'm in a very privileged position
and I'm grateful and all those things, but I can't share my authentic story.
Because I know that it's just up for so much scrutiny. And I think maybe if it was the early
days, I would have a thicker skin and I have a really thick skin now, but I don't have as much
tolerance for it. I just can't be bothered. I can't be bothered to share a lot of the stuff
because I don't want to explain actually, you know, running a company and launching a beauty
brand is incredibly difficult. And, you know, I don't have to explain myself. So to answer your
question, I do think you can have authenticity without sharing the real woes of life. I mean,
the tricky thing is I've done it for so long. I want to share like more than anything, I would
love to just like get on YouTube and be like, girls, here's what's actually going on. But
unfortunately, there's a few bad apples that spoil it and it can get kind of blown out of
proportion and turned into this whole thing that I personally just don't have the mental capacity
to deal with. I think a lot of what I'm doing now is trying to navigate how I move forward
as a content creator on one hand and a brand founder on the other and how I can kind of merge
the two while still, you know, having that connection that brought my audience to me in
the first place. So it's actually a really tricky task. Yeah, I can imagine. And that people say,
like, I see these tick-tock videos, whereas these kind of finance bros that are like, oh,
you know, you should be polarizing, you need to be polarizing, people should either love you or
they hate you. But I feel like for us, for women and for minorities, we don't have that luxury.
Like there's still that element that there's, you have to be likable in order to be successful.
And it's a very tricky balance, like you say. You're so right. I think any time I do something,
and it's like maybe off what people are used to seeing from me, and it doesn't get,
you know, a great response, the followers drop immediately. I don't want to be a polarizing
person. That's not in my nature to be like any presses, good press. That's not actually what
I'm seeking. I don't want to just have like, fame for being somebody that's a polarizing
personality, you know, but equally, like you're never going to be liked by everyone. And I think
especially in the startup world, I know Grace Beverly always says this stat, which is only 2%
of female founded companies get venture backed. And, you know, there's many reasons for that.
And I think like, yeah, if I even have a chance at that 2%, I'm going to have to be a likable person.
No, for sure. And on that note, I think a lot of female founders, there's that pressure that you
also have to be a brand ambassador and an influencer, even if you didn't sort of come up through that
path. What are your thoughts on that? Because obviously, I think people underestimate that
that is a kind of full time job in itself. People really do underestimate that. And honestly, I've
obviously started as a content creator. So I have all that history and I have that amazing platform,
but they're not there to listen to me talk about my brand. They're there to hear me talk about my
life. And in some ways, I sort of envy people who start beauty brands without a platform first,
because they can then make their prep platform about the brand. I can't do that with my brands,
with my existing Instagram. I can't just turn it into the mirror water behind the scenes channel.
I have to maintain two very different sides of my life and then occasionally try to put my brand
into my personal Instagram because that is my life. And it's quite tricky. I see amazing
brand founders like, oh, I can't remember her name now, the founder of Crown Affair, what's her name?
Diana Cohen. She is amazing. And she shares a lot about Crown Affair. I could never do that. I
would lose most of my audience, I think. So there's pros and cons of everything.
For sure. And for me personally, having just launched Smart Beauty, I'm now having to kind of
put myself out there a lot more. And that is kind of goes against every sell in my bodies. Just get
out, get out. Because I think as women as well, a lot of us don't feel comfortable putting ourselves
out there. What would be your advice to somebody in that position who maybe, unlike yourself,
isn't a content creator or doesn't have, isn't used to kind of, yeah, being the face of something?
Well, I would say I didn't come out of the womb like this. I trained myself. So if I can do it,
anyone can do it. Because when I started, I was incredibly introverted. I would say just be comfortable
with the fact that you're not going to be good immediately. And that sucks, because everybody
wants to be good. No one wants to be bad at something. But it does take practice. It's like
any other job, you learn how to do it with more experience. It's funny because sometimes my friends
like, they won't like make fun of my job, but they'll, they kind of sometimes people think it's
just an easy job. And when they come over, sometimes I say, okay, here's this lip balm,
and I'm going to film you. And I want you to tell me why you like this lip balm so much.
They freeze on the camera. It's because it's a skill.
It looks so easy from the outside, but to get in front of a camera, be able to switch it on is
just so difficult. I've tried it myself and yeah, it failed spectacularly.
The entire point of being an influencer is to make it look easy. That's the job. And I've said that
to people so many times when people are like, all you do is get your hair done and get your nails done.
And I say, well, I must be doing a really good job then because you think I don't do anything.
You have to say that to you. That is wild. Oh man, that's just the tip of the iceberg. But
um, yeah, I guess my advice would be just practice, except that you're probably going to look a little
bit stupid for the beginning and do it in the comfort of your own home and just get over it
and just get it out there. You know, we're not looking for perfection here. We're just looking
to get it out there. Yeah, Dan is better than perfect. You say? Yes, big time. And you're part
of a growing number of brands who are influencer founded. How do you think brands like yours are
kind of helping to shape the beauty industry? Because I think it's a great thing. I think to
have, you know, more female founders in general, but also sort of content creators that have a
prominent voice in the end can only be a good thing. I think it's a really exciting natural
progression for, you know, a lot of us that started earlier. I'm a huge fan of people like Jamie,
Genevieve, of course she's got to be beauty. And, um, you know, to go from someone like I was 19,
I dropped out of university and I became a content creator and now I'm running my own business.
You know, this is all things that I was, I, this is all self taught, you know, and that's
empowering to me. And I'm sure Genevieve feels the same. I feel so empowered by it. I don't know
the answers. I don't know the outcome of how it will go, but I'm learning so many new skills,
which is great. And I think it's inspiring to the people that watch us too, you know,
I could have been an influencer probably for the rest of my life and just had a pretty comfortable
life. But instead I wanted to kind of challenge myself and take this on. I mean, looking back,
I'm like, I missed that old life. I thought I was stressed then while I'm stressed now.
But I think it's, I think it's wonderful. I think it's amazing. And I love showing more of the
behind the scenes of starting the brand because it is, you know, typically a man's world. And there
is this barrier to entry. Like I didn't know how to start a brand before this. I didn't know what
a business plan was. Like I genuinely had never seen a business plan before I started this whole
thing. And now I've made like tons of them. I've started investing in other companies. And I think
all of that is an amazing thing. And I think if you have a platform and you have influence and you
can talk about those sorts of things, you're only empowering and inspiring other women.
No, for sure. And how important was kind of your brand story and putting, putting all that
together? Because obviously you've got great products, but you need to have a good story to
sort of go with them. So how did, what was the, how did all that come about?
It's harder than, than it seems. And I think there have been a few iterations of it. I mean,
our brand just turned three years old. I mean, I say our brand, but it is my brand.
I always feel weird saying that, but yeah, I guess it is mine. And, you know, we've spent
three years trying to find that perfect product market fit, you know,
where do we fit in the landscape of body care wellness? So although like the embers and the,
you know, foundation of the brand story has been the same over time, it just, it does evolve and
things start to just make a little bit more sense. And obviously I'd never done this before. I didn't
know what brand pillars were. I didn't know anything about that. I just wanted to start
a beautiful brand because I wanted the products. So, you know, the way I've kind of worked a bit
backwards, but yeah, I would say the most important thing when you launch is to have a good business
plan and a solid foundation for a brand story. And do you think that brands like yours are part of a
growing kind of shift in the industry that sort of products to make us feel good as opposed to just
look good? Absolutely. I think, you know, I am someone that doesn't wear loads of makeup. I'm
tired all the time. My stress levels are through the roof. I'm always trying to find ways to make
myself feel better. I like being at home. I love wellness, but I'm not like a gym bunny. So, you
know, I'm just trying to find ways here and there that can help me. And interestingly, I was having
a conversation with Mecca, the retailer in Australia. And I don't know if this is a secret,
but anyway, whatever I'll just say it, they are merging their body care range with a category
called well-being. So, you know, everything's kind of shifting to kind of merge any sort of product
that's going to help you relax, reset, slow down. They're merging that with what's called well-being.
And I think Sephora is going to do a sort of similar thing. It's not going anywhere. Well,
wellness, you know, all of these anti-stress type things, we're getting more stressed by the day.
So, I think it's a really growing category. And I think we'll see a lot more well-being brands
popping up. Yeah. And it makes sense when you think about it because I feel like even like,
if I kind of work out, which is a rarity these days, but when I do, it's, you know, you feel great
in your body. And if you feel good, you feel better about your body as well. I find that my body image
kind of, how I feel just within myself. Do you find that as well? Completely. It's so strange
because like, I could wake up feeling like shit, hating myself. And I'll be like, oh, maybe I'll go
for a walk along the canal. I'll go for a walk and come back. It's like, instantly, wow, I actually
hate myself a little bit less. Yeah. That's nice. I don't know why I just do it every day. But I do
think, you know, and part of the reason I wanted to launch Mirror Waters, because sometimes I think
wellness can be a bit heavy on the guilt. And it can make you feel like you're not doing enough,
you know, you're not going to fit into that particular size. You're not doing enough gratitude
journaling. You know, all those things. I wanted to create a brand with a well with well being at
its heart that accepted you as you are and like understand that some days you don't feel great
or you don't look your best or feel your best, you know, and that's okay. And you don't always have
to jump out of bed at five o'clock in the morning for your gratitude journal and your
Pilates and your green juice before you're nine to five. Yeah. I know, that's definitely not an
option for me. I mean, in the head by toddler at five a.m. this morning. So the idea of doing
an hour of yoga and all of that. Yeah. Like, but like, don't you find that like, for instance,
it's we're recording this on a Friday, I haven't been to the gym this week. I had high hopes on
Sunday night. I was like, I'm going to try to get to a yoga class this week. I didn't. There's like
an underlying negative feeling I have about that in myself. It's like a constant undercurrent of
you're not doing enough. Yeah. I hate that feeling. I'm trying hard to work through that within myself.
It's like cultural perfectionism. It's like you need to look after yourself, but perfectly, you
know, yeah, yeah, completely. It's like we put pressure on ourselves even when we're trying
to take the pressure off of ourselves, which is exactly. And that's why I love baths so much
because the only thing you're supposed to do is chill. I like that dedicated time. And I think
like, I always say, rest is productive. And I try to remember that resting is something positive
you're doing for yourself. And just like I sort of like the schedule and meetings. And you know,
all the things I need to do, like a dentist appointment, I have to schedule in my downtime
just so I can get rid of the guilt. Like sometimes when I do a yoga class, they say at the beginning
of the class, this hour is just for you. You have nowhere else to be. Don't think about that.
Really helps me. So I kind of try to take the same approach to, to like my downtime.
Yeah, I think it's so important to kind of proactively switch off as opposed to
yeah, just trying to snap. Yeah, moments here and there. What was it like when you were growing?
What was the beauty industry like when you were growing up? And how do you feel like it's changed,
you know, in going on from what we were saying about kind of products to make you feel good,
as opposed to look good. Do you think that that's kind of changed from when you were younger and
sort of messages that were being marketed to you? Yeah, in Asia. I don't think anything was marketed
towards you making you feel better about yourself when I was growing up. I mean,
it's like you'll share your experience. Yeah, exactly. I remember going to Mac when I was
probably like 14 or 15 in high school and all my friends and I just spending all of our money that
we'd saved on like these heavy foundations and blushes and bronzers and whatever and mascara.
And I at the time like felt if I don't have these things, I'm ugly or like I'm not going to fit in
in like all of those things. That's so sad. I'm glad that's kind of going away. I mean,
we've obviously are faced with other problems now, because now I think it's more about looking natural
and looking perfect with no makeup. You know what I mean? It's like we've got other problems now.
Yeah, it's kind of like you're damned if you do damned if you don't, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
And what was it like kind of working with beauty brands in your early days as a content creator?
Like how were you treated? And was there anything sort of surprising or challenging that sort of
springs to mind? In the early days, it's just so I think a bit so fondly. I mean, I remember getting
sent my very first product for free. It was the Liz Earl hot cloth cleanser. Oh, classic. And it was
truly like I had won the lottery when that package came through my door. Like I couldn't believe it.
A brand was sending me this for free. Like it's insane. Looking back, I had one of the top three
beauty blogs in the UK, and I was getting millions of views a month. And obviously, I was, you know,
helping them out by featuring it. But it wasn't positioned like that at the time. And I didn't
feel that way. This was a much different era. And in a way, like I miss those days. Nobody will do
anything for free anymore. And I understand this from both sides, because I'm a seasoned content
creator who likes to get paid for the work I do. But equally now, I have a startup brand, and we
truly have no money to pay people to do those things. And I think it's sad that it's kind of
rarer and rarer for someone to feature a product just because they like it. You know, they're
always looking for that paycheck. But equally, I get it. And especially with the rise of UGC,
you know, I was doing UGC for 10 years for free. Yeah, you know, yeah. But obviously,
I love that people are empowered to get paid for that. And they should get paid for that. But
it's just harder now that I'm on the brand side. And I understand how difficult it is to get a
brand off the ground. But when I was first starting, it was the Wild Wild West out there.
Yeah, the best of times, the worst of times.
No, for sure. And there's like, there's chatter online. I mean, I feel like this conversation
has been around for years, but there was a brand that gifted influences, like I think it was a
Cartier bracelet or something. Yeah. And people are now saying, look, we want to move away from
that. We don't want to see influences being given these extravagant gifts. We want to see like
customers, real people who actually love and use the brand. Like what's your kind of
taker brand founder? You know, I think influencers, and I put myself in the category, obviously,
our value is kind of going down because the audience, whether it's true or not, thinks that
we're just getting paid to talk about something. So we don't really care about it. It's not,
it doesn't hold as much weight as it used to be in the early days when we were just talking about
things that we loved. I think now, you know, customer reviews, word of mouth, that is so
important. And I don't know about you, but when I go on Instagram, everything I look at is an ad.
And I'm not, I'm not really buying from that. Now I'm more look at influencers as a form of
advertising. I don't think it's necessarily converting into sales like it once was. Like I
remember back in the day, you know, if I mentioned a lipstick, it would sell out. Whereas now it's
more sort of like, oh, I stay using that lipstick. That's cool. That looks really good on her. And
then that customer will probably have to see that four or five more times somewhere else.
It's just working with influencers in a bit of a different way now, I think. But absolutely,
I think like micro influencers, nano influencers, their weight is amazing. And they have like
genuine relationships with their audience that feels a little bit closer than at an
arms length, which is maybe how it feels with some of the bigger influencers now.
I can imagine. And when you kind of were putting together your strategy as a brand
founder, did you kind of decide, right, I'm going to do X, Y and Z differently to when I was on the
other end of this, when I was sort of being working with them? Yeah. Well, I had really grand
ideas when I started the brand. I was like, I'm going to do this so differently. And then now
that I'm on the other side, I'm like, actually, it's a lot harder to do things differently than I
thought it was going to be. But I have to say, I have had so much support from other content
creators and people in my network for the brand, you know, all of my friends have posted about
the product, they do obviously believe in it. And actually, some of my friends have invested in the
brand, which is amazing. That's like the ultimate belief. So I must say, like, I'm so grateful to
anyone and everyone that's like mentioned the product, because without that, I just don't know
how else we could get the word out. I mean, I can't afford to do paid media. I can't afford to do
any marketing. I don't have press. You know, it's really hard to cut through the noise.
I think now that we're three years on, I'm sort of starting to think, right, like, how can we work
with influencers in a meaningful way? Of course, I can't afford those high rates. Like, I don't
even take a salary from the company myself. So I don't have the money to do that. But I think,
like, UGC is a great way to get content. And I think we'll start working with some
creators for that. And also, I think just like personally reaching out to influencers and telling
them the truth, like, hi, I must say, this is my brand. Like, I would love to send you some. I'm
sorry, I don't have any budget to put behind this. But if you liked it, it would be amazing. And I
think just like that transparency is what people like. And ultimately, you know, people do love
to support small female founded businesses like other women in the industry. So, yeah, I'm really
grateful. And I think I think that's probably the way I'm going to approach it from this point up
until hopefully we get some money and then we can pay everyone and everyone.
What were the biggest kind of, you know, challenges? I mean, I imagine it's terrifying. I mean, I've
started a business, I don't even have a product and I find it terrifying. What were the biggest kind
of unexpected challenges? Looking back kind of three years on?
I really approached this brand completely naively. I knew it would be difficult. But
you know what, if I knew how difficult it was going to be, I would never have done it. Truly,
I never would have done it. It's just, it's exactly. So I'm glad in some ways. I think some of the
most difficult things that I've had to learn is operational, logistical things. You know, we have
a warehouse in the US. We have a warehouse in the UK, dealing with things like tax in the US and
the UK, especially with everything that's going on politically. Supply chain. I didn't understand
things like lead times, you know, my glass jars for my body oil, that might be on a 16-week lead time.
I need to order the caps. That might be on a 27-week lead time, you know, and then managing
cash flow on top of that. I don't know about these things. I've never gone to business school. I didn't
even know what cash flow meant before I launched this company. But we're not bloody taught these
things at school as well, which is annoying. It is annoying. But that's kind of my personal
bugbear isn't it? Totally. I wish I just had a general idea of how to run a business. Yeah. And I
thought in a way because I've been running my content creation business that I had a good idea
of. No, I didn't know how to do this. I think also legal, there's a lot of legal loops to jump
through, especially with beauty products. You know, you have to get your products tested. You have to
get them registered. You have to have certain things on the packaging. You have to have certain
font sizes on the packaging. You know, all of this costs so much money because I'm not an expert in
it. I have to hire someone who knows about that. Otherwise, your product gets recalled, you're out
of the business. So many things. Another hard thing is maintaining the Instagram page with what
content, who's taking that content, who's photographing that content, who's writing the captions,
who's writing our newsletter every week. We're a team of 2.5 people. And I'm also a full-time
content creator. So it's truly, it can feel really, really overwhelming. So I feel like I'm drowning
pretty much most days. But it's the only thing that gets me out of bed. I'm excited about it.
I'm optimistic about it. So I think all entrepreneurs kind of love that mix of feelings, probably.
What keeps you from consumed by that? How do you keep going?
Well, I messaged one of my founder friends literally two days ago because I was like,
I just don't know what's going to happen here, you know, with a certain situation. And she said,
running a business is kind of like being a recovering alcoholic. You just have to take it one day at
a time. And honestly, I will look at, say, it's like I'm stressing about finances, I'll look at the
bank account one day, and I will literally not be able to sleep because I'm like, I don't know how
I'm going to pay my staff. I don't know how I'm going to pay the warehouse. I don't know how to do
all this stuff. And then a couple days will go by and you know what, I'm still here. Everything's
going to be okay. And it's just things change so quickly when you have your own business. It's
not a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's a climb. And every day you just have to
basically do something. You don't have to solve every problem every single day. And I think
that's one piece of advice I would give to people, you know, my inbox, I have at least four or five
hundred emails that I need to reply to, they're all flagged. And I'm like, I can't get to all this
today. And it's just like accepting that, which is so hard. It's really tricky, because there's
just so many moving parts aren't there? And I'll just jump in one thing you said about all the
moving parts. I think that's another thing that is is not really spoken about or understood before
launching a business is how your brain needs to switch between in one hour even operations,
then it'll be something about marketing, then it'll be a finance call. And then you have to talk
about this and then you have to be creative and talk about product launches. It's like, your brain
is in overdrive. And one thing that's helped me a lot is time blocking. And I'm not perfect at it.
But I think that's sort of where that entrepreneurial fatigue has really hit me is like
having to switch from subject matter to subject matter and having to like recalibrate my brain
all the time. I'm trying to get better at saying, okay, I stay from nine in the morning until 10
in the morning, you're going to deal with all of your product issues, then just focusing on that
and not getting distracted by all the messages on Slack or the, you know, customer issue. And it
does really, really help. Do you think you have to be a certain personality type to go into this
go into this? I feel like myself personally, I think a lot of us call up we don't have any
other choice because of things like anxiety or just being neurodiversity. And I'm still pushing
to get a diagnosis for myself. But I feel like for me, like work choosing my own hours is the only
way that my brain can function. Do you feel like that that some of us just don't fit into that
regular nine to five mold and we have to come out and absolutely on our own.
You're so right. There is no other option for me. I don't know how people go into work every day
and sit around people all the time and have a smile on and get their work done. And I truly
couldn't do it. Same. It's that kind of game face on office. Office chit chat was the one
that you feel like. Nightmare. Yeah. Obviously, you know, if push came to shove, I would have to
do it. But yeah, I definitely wanted to take like a chance at it. And I think if you are someone
that's like has this idea and has this feeling of I want to do it, just try it. Just try it.
Yeah. And I feel like when those moments come, we are just like, oh my God, how am I going to
pay X, Y and Z? But things have a way of just maybe this is naive, but things have a way of
working themselves out. Like, yeah, that's what I tell myself anyway. And one other thing that
if I could start it over, I would do differently is I would start smaller. So I think like when
I launched the brand, I sort of maybe had a little bit of ego and I was like, this is going to be
like, you know, a huge launch and whatever else. And I don't think you need to start off
huge, you know, start small. It's difficult with beauty brands because the minimum order
quantities are so high. So like I had to make 5000 units of each product. That is a lot.
Yeah. And if you think about like the money behind that, so like if just say my body oil,
which this is a fake price, just say it costs 10 pounds, which it doesn't, but just say it's it,
you know, I have to order 5000 of those and I have three products. So you guys listening can do the
math. It's like, where is that money coming from? And then how do you replenish that? It's like,
I wish maybe I started with one product. I wish I started found a manufacturer who could make a
smaller run. I wish I just started smaller. So if anyone's listening, you know, there is no shame
in starting a bit smaller and growing. And I wish I did that. And what's it like speaking to
kind of investors and retailers and people like that? Like, it is, you know, how do you kind of
approach that having kind of not got into business before? And like you say, kind of being very new
to this. I'm not going to, that was kind of quite, you know, intimidating to say the least. How do
you deal with that? Well, I raised some money during COVID to launch the brand because like I
just mentioned the prices of launching the products. And also, you know, things like trademarks and
websites. So I had, I did my first investor pitch during COVID over zoom. I didn't know what I was
talking about. I rehearsed several, several times with other people who have done it before. But
honest to God, I don't think I've ever been so nervous in my life. And he was a man. And I just
felt less than I felt like I didn't know the answers to anything. I really didn't understand the
finances. You know, I still have a lot of room to learn with the finance department because my
brain just doesn't work that way. But anyway, I got through it and I came out a better person. I
have since done probably hundreds, if not thousands of pitches to investors and most of them end with
a no. That's the thing. Yeah, it's really, really tough. And it's hard to deal with the rejection.
But then you occasionally get a yes and they're an amazing partner. And I have some amazing angel
investors in the brand. And you're like, okay, it's validating. And then with retailers, I love
speaking to retailers because they get the vision most of the time. And you know, we have so many
amazing retail partners, Space MK Liberty. We're launching with Selfridges soon. You can't get
any better than that really. Like they're so amazing. And when you have those buyers saying we
believe in the brand, and it's so, so gorgeous and whatever, it's like, okay, so I should just
keep going. And those are all those little things that as a founder, you kind of have to hold on to
when you're getting rejected and yet another investor pitch.
It must be so tricky. And how did you kind of go into developing? So I love the brand's sort of,
you know, such a unique kind of look and feel and like personality. Can you give us a little
insight into, into the process? Like how much of yourself was in the brand? And did you kind of
struggle with not knowing where kind of you ended in the brand began, so to speak?
Yes. Well, I knew I wanted the brand to have its own name and its own identity. So it's called
Mirror Water because it's all about self reflection and going inwards and looking at your life and
yourself in the mirror, blah, blah, blah, I could go on about that. And I knew the sort of gist of
what I wanted to have this sort of like ethereal, like kind of ripples and maybe spirals and things
like that. But equally, I am not a designer. So I was introduced to an amazing designer based in
Australia. Her name is Manuely and I still work with her today. So we've been working together
for at least four and a half, maybe almost five years, because it took about two years to develop
the brand before I launched it. And she took all of my mood boards and turned it into this amazing
Mirror Water world, which truly is like better than anything I ever could have imagined. So I have
to give all the credit to her. She really like saw what I was trying to do and elevated it.
Were you together? You're like, holy shit, this is actually the most.
Yeah, I know. And as soon as I saw the logo, because first of all, when I wanted to name it
Mirror Water, everyone said no. Everyone was like, that is the most stupid name. It's way too long.
It's not going to fit on any of your packaging. It's not memorable. It's a mouthful. And I just,
I love it. I'm not just saying that. Like I really, thank you. I love it too. I think it's different.
And I'm so glad I went with it because now it's like one of the most complimented things about
the brand. So that's another lesson in trusting your instincts. And yeah, so I have to say my
designer is amazing. And then I have a great, like a small but mighty team of people who help with
like the Instagram and everything. And I have to say, like, I just let them run with it. So it's
run by Holly, who's my full time employee. She's our brand marketing manager. And yeah, she's just
taken like the initial design that Manuely did and turned it into like a more social friendly
look and feel. So I think I'm a big believer in like when you hire someone, you need to let them
fly with what they do best. And although it is hard as a founder to give up control, I think she's
done an amazing job. What's it like kind of managing a team because I'm personally
shit at managing people. And that sort of terrifies me. And I think you could be good at your job.
But then kind of managing people is a whole completely different skill set. I mean, you
might be very good at it. I don't know. If I didn't have to be doing content creation,
like if that wasn't part of my life, I think I would be a much better manager because I would
have more time to manage and prep and plan. But it'll be like a Sunday night at nine o'clock
at night. And I'm trying to think like, okay, what should the team be working on to this week?
You know, there are it's managing people is hard. And to anyone out there who has done it and is
good at it, like that, that's another skill that I would love to get better at. It's, it's quite
difficult. I'm not the best at it, but we use things like Slack and Notion. And that helps keep
everything in place. And I think like, ultimately, the most important thing is people need to know
what they're working on. They need to know what they're doing. And I'm a very involved founder,
like every single day I'm talking to the team on Slack and I'm not just kind of like running around,
you know, not plugging in. I'm, I am very, very hands on, maybe sometimes a little too hands on.
Well, it's good. I think it's to be expected when it's your brand. And do you believe in like
manifestation? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think we have to, don't we? I'm just manifesting everything
at the moment. Yeah, I think we have to. Yeah, I think like, I think Oprah said this, and she said,
a lot of people don't get to where they want to go because they don't know where they want to go.
And I think that is really true. Like if I don't say I want to launch at this retailer by the end
of this year and work backwards, how am I ever going to make that happen? And things don't just
fall on your lap. So I don't believe in like blind manifestation, but I do believe in like setting
a goal and working towards it. I think it's like creating a psychological roadmap, isn't it? And
just yeah, the end of our time. But I wanted to just ask you like if there's anything that you
could go back and tell your 19 year old self when you were starting out, what would it be?
Save your money. My mom used to tell me that all the time. And I would never do. You never do.
No, but in all seriousness, if I could go back, you know what, I'm really like happy with the way
I went about everything. But I think I would just go back and say, how do I put this? I think when
I was 19, I was just kind of going with the flow. And like, I thought, okay, I'm going to be a content
creator and whatever. And whatever. I kind of had a one track mind about what it looks like to be
a content creator and what my career would be. And I just kind of focused on that. I wish I
felt empowered, younger to start my own type of company or to start at least learning and
investing in my future, like taking more business courses. Even though I didn't necessarily know
how to apply those skills, I wish I would have just started learning about that stuff back then
when I had more time, even though I felt like I had no time, you know, learning things like how to
use Excel. Wish I knew. Yeah, it's so true. I think entrepreneurship is the only way that we will
ever achieve true equality and empowerment. I think trying to kind of change the way traditional
companies operate is just, you know, the wrong way to go about it. I think we should, yeah,
just do it for ourselves as they, as Aretha Franklin said, completely. Well, we're at the end of our
time. But essay, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate how insanely busy you probably are.
So really, really grateful and it's been lovely chatting with you. Thank you. You've also helped
me work out a few things in my head as well. So I feel better coming out of the conversation.
I hope you enjoyed that episode. All links will be in the show notes and feel free to visit
smartbeautycreative.com or visit us over on Instagram to find out more about what we do.
And if you enjoyed listening, please don't forget to rate and review smart beauty on iTunes as it
helps people find us. See you next time.