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Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. I'm your host, Vyla Levy, beauty journalist

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and founder of Copilot branding agency, Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to create your

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brand voice and craft the story behind it. Today I'm thrilled to welcome Estée Lalonde

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to the podcast, a voice, a face and a founder many of us know and admire in the beauty world.

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Estée first captured attention as one of the early digital influencers in beauty with her

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relatable down-to-earth personality and inspiring content that resonated deeply with her audience.

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Since then she's evolved from content creator to brand founder with Mirror Water,

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a brand that reflects her journey of self-discovery and commitment to wellness and mindfulness.

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Over the years Estée has become a pioneer in redefining beauty and self-care,

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shifting the focus towards authenticity, feeling good and living with intention.

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Her work continues to inspire countless followers and fans around the world.

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Today we'll delve into her incredible journey from navigating the beauty industry as one of its

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first influences to the challenges and triumphs of launching her own brand and what it truly means

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to stay authentic in an ever-changing digital landscape. Estée, thank you so much for joining me today.

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Wow, what an intro.

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Mirror Water has become such a unique and personal expression of you from your values to your experiences.

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So looking back, how has that journey from starting out as a content creator to now a brand

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founder shaped who you are today? What do you say?

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Well, when I started creating contents about 15 years ago, I had no idea what was in store for me.

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I truly started doing it as a hobby because I wanted to share and I wanted to connect with other people

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and there was no sort of ulterior motive. I never thought about all the followers and the money

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and that sort of thing, which I think is obviously what the industry has become and it's exciting and amazing.

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But I really was doing it for myself and for anyone who might connect with it.

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So over time, I think when I started sharing my life, I was so young, I was 19 and I shared a lot of things

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and it shaped me in every single possible way. I mean, most 19-year-olds don't share the ins and outs of their

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first relationship. They don't share the ups and downs of their mental health.

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I had a platform of people almost looking to me, not necessarily for guidance, but for reassurance

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that there was someone else out there experiencing the highs and lows of life, I guess.

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And because it was such a new thing, there weren't that many people doing it.

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So I can completely understand why that whole YouTube thing took off at that time in terms of vlogging.

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When I look back to it now of how it shaped me as a 34-year-old woman, there's been so many positives

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and negatives, I think, of having a life lived online. Some of the positives obviously include

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having this amazing career, having a following of people who truly get me. Sometimes when I meet

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people on the street or whatever, it's like running into a long-lost friend, even though I've never

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met them, but there's just like a kinship there. And some of the negative ways it's impacted me is

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it's actually made my anxiety probably a lot worse because of the pressure of it all. But

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equally, I know that sharing my mental health is helping other people. And maybe some other negatives are...

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Well, if I talk about this a lot in therapy, I don't sometimes know the difference between the real

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estate and the estate belongs that I put online. And so sometimes there's a disconnect there

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within myself. So I mean, I could talk about that a lot, but those are just some broad examples.

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And do you think kind of looking back, you would have been a bit more kind of...

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I wouldn't say like closed off, but would you have approached things differently within

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terms of how sort of open, authentic you were? Did you think that, you know, now knowing that

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there's a bit of a personal cost? I mean, it's great that people were able to relate to you

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and that you were able to sort of put content out there that people felt less alone. But for

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your sake, would you say that you would perhaps have done things differently knowing sort of what

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the consequences your anxiety perhaps were? The thing is, like, if I would have done things

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differently, I wouldn't be where I am today. I think if I was starting today, I wouldn't do it

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the same way, but obviously I was much younger and I didn't understand that. I don't think anyone

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really understood what it feels like to be 15 years down the line and having everything you've

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ever shared still be available on the internet. You know, any person I meet can Google me and they

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can see what I've been up to. And especially for my personal life, like say I go on a date with

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someone, they Google me, they can tell that I was previously engaged, they can see that I previously

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did this. You know, it's like, it's like the next level, it's a next level look into somebody's life

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that is, it's quite hard to deal with, you know, like I have to manage that with every single person

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I meet, you know, sometimes. So that's a lot. I don't think I would do it differently,

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because that was just of the time, but I'm definitely a lot more conscious of it going forward.

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Yeah, particularly as a brand founder, I imagine, is like the brand ambassador. I mean, I think there's

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a lot of pressure on particularly female founders to be like, quite and quite authentic.

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How do you kind of balance that? Because I think that, like you say, there can be a cost of being

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too authentic. And do we really have to be authentic to be likable? Like, is there a balance between

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having that sort of level of authenticity and being kind of strategic with how you manage that,

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manage your personal image and putting yourself out there?

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People always say they want authenticity, but I honestly think people can't handle authenticity

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because it's the truth of it all is messy. And there's so much judgment. And, you know,

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even if I talk about my brand and I say like, I am so stressed with that, people will say,

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wow, it must be really stressful making body scrubs for a living. You know, like you get that

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feedback. And it's like, there's always so much context to something. And obviously, everything's

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relative and everybody's stress is relative. And, you know, I'm in a very privileged position

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and I'm grateful and all those things, but I can't share my authentic story.

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Because I know that it's just up for so much scrutiny. And I think maybe if it was the early

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days, I would have a thicker skin and I have a really thick skin now, but I don't have as much

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tolerance for it. I just can't be bothered. I can't be bothered to share a lot of the stuff

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because I don't want to explain actually, you know, running a company and launching a beauty

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brand is incredibly difficult. And, you know, I don't have to explain myself. So to answer your

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question, I do think you can have authenticity without sharing the real woes of life. I mean,

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the tricky thing is I've done it for so long. I want to share like more than anything, I would

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love to just like get on YouTube and be like, girls, here's what's actually going on. But

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unfortunately, there's a few bad apples that spoil it and it can get kind of blown out of

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proportion and turned into this whole thing that I personally just don't have the mental capacity

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to deal with. I think a lot of what I'm doing now is trying to navigate how I move forward

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as a content creator on one hand and a brand founder on the other and how I can kind of merge

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the two while still, you know, having that connection that brought my audience to me in

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the first place. So it's actually a really tricky task. Yeah, I can imagine. And that people say,

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like, I see these tick-tock videos, whereas these kind of finance bros that are like, oh,

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you know, you should be polarizing, you need to be polarizing, people should either love you or

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they hate you. But I feel like for us, for women and for minorities, we don't have that luxury.

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Like there's still that element that there's, you have to be likable in order to be successful.

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And it's a very tricky balance, like you say. You're so right. I think any time I do something,

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and it's like maybe off what people are used to seeing from me, and it doesn't get,

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you know, a great response, the followers drop immediately. I don't want to be a polarizing

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person. That's not in my nature to be like any presses, good press. That's not actually what

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I'm seeking. I don't want to just have like, fame for being somebody that's a polarizing

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personality, you know, but equally, like you're never going to be liked by everyone. And I think

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especially in the startup world, I know Grace Beverly always says this stat, which is only 2%

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of female founded companies get venture backed. And, you know, there's many reasons for that.

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And I think like, yeah, if I even have a chance at that 2%, I'm going to have to be a likable person.

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No, for sure. And on that note, I think a lot of female founders, there's that pressure that you

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also have to be a brand ambassador and an influencer, even if you didn't sort of come up through that

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path. What are your thoughts on that? Because obviously, I think people underestimate that

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that is a kind of full time job in itself. People really do underestimate that. And honestly, I've

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obviously started as a content creator. So I have all that history and I have that amazing platform,

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but they're not there to listen to me talk about my brand. They're there to hear me talk about my

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life. And in some ways, I sort of envy people who start beauty brands without a platform first,

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because they can then make their prep platform about the brand. I can't do that with my brands,

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with my existing Instagram. I can't just turn it into the mirror water behind the scenes channel.

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I have to maintain two very different sides of my life and then occasionally try to put my brand

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into my personal Instagram because that is my life. And it's quite tricky. I see amazing

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brand founders like, oh, I can't remember her name now, the founder of Crown Affair, what's her name?

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Diana Cohen. She is amazing. And she shares a lot about Crown Affair. I could never do that. I

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would lose most of my audience, I think. So there's pros and cons of everything.

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For sure. And for me personally, having just launched Smart Beauty, I'm now having to kind of

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put myself out there a lot more. And that is kind of goes against every sell in my bodies. Just get

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out, get out. Because I think as women as well, a lot of us don't feel comfortable putting ourselves

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out there. What would be your advice to somebody in that position who maybe, unlike yourself,

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isn't a content creator or doesn't have, isn't used to kind of, yeah, being the face of something?

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Well, I would say I didn't come out of the womb like this. I trained myself. So if I can do it,

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anyone can do it. Because when I started, I was incredibly introverted. I would say just be comfortable

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with the fact that you're not going to be good immediately. And that sucks, because everybody

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wants to be good. No one wants to be bad at something. But it does take practice. It's like

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any other job, you learn how to do it with more experience. It's funny because sometimes my friends

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like, they won't like make fun of my job, but they'll, they kind of sometimes people think it's

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just an easy job. And when they come over, sometimes I say, okay, here's this lip balm,

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and I'm going to film you. And I want you to tell me why you like this lip balm so much.

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They freeze on the camera. It's because it's a skill.

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It looks so easy from the outside, but to get in front of a camera, be able to switch it on is

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just so difficult. I've tried it myself and yeah, it failed spectacularly.

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The entire point of being an influencer is to make it look easy. That's the job. And I've said that

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to people so many times when people are like, all you do is get your hair done and get your nails done.

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And I say, well, I must be doing a really good job then because you think I don't do anything.

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You have to say that to you. That is wild. Oh man, that's just the tip of the iceberg. But

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um, yeah, I guess my advice would be just practice, except that you're probably going to look a little

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bit stupid for the beginning and do it in the comfort of your own home and just get over it

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and just get it out there. You know, we're not looking for perfection here. We're just looking

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to get it out there. Yeah, Dan is better than perfect. You say? Yes, big time. And you're part

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of a growing number of brands who are influencer founded. How do you think brands like yours are

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kind of helping to shape the beauty industry? Because I think it's a great thing. I think to

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have, you know, more female founders in general, but also sort of content creators that have a

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prominent voice in the end can only be a good thing. I think it's a really exciting natural

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progression for, you know, a lot of us that started earlier. I'm a huge fan of people like Jamie,

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Genevieve, of course she's got to be beauty. And, um, you know, to go from someone like I was 19,

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I dropped out of university and I became a content creator and now I'm running my own business.

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You know, this is all things that I was, I, this is all self taught, you know, and that's

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empowering to me. And I'm sure Genevieve feels the same. I feel so empowered by it. I don't know

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the answers. I don't know the outcome of how it will go, but I'm learning so many new skills,

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which is great. And I think it's inspiring to the people that watch us too, you know,

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I could have been an influencer probably for the rest of my life and just had a pretty comfortable

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life. But instead I wanted to kind of challenge myself and take this on. I mean, looking back,

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I'm like, I missed that old life. I thought I was stressed then while I'm stressed now.

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But I think it's, I think it's wonderful. I think it's amazing. And I love showing more of the

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behind the scenes of starting the brand because it is, you know, typically a man's world. And there

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is this barrier to entry. Like I didn't know how to start a brand before this. I didn't know what

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a business plan was. Like I genuinely had never seen a business plan before I started this whole

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thing. And now I've made like tons of them. I've started investing in other companies. And I think

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all of that is an amazing thing. And I think if you have a platform and you have influence and you

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can talk about those sorts of things, you're only empowering and inspiring other women.

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No, for sure. And how important was kind of your brand story and putting, putting all that

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together? Because obviously you've got great products, but you need to have a good story to

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sort of go with them. So how did, what was the, how did all that come about?

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It's harder than, than it seems. And I think there have been a few iterations of it. I mean,

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our brand just turned three years old. I mean, I say our brand, but it is my brand.

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I always feel weird saying that, but yeah, I guess it is mine. And, you know, we've spent

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three years trying to find that perfect product market fit, you know,

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where do we fit in the landscape of body care wellness? So although like the embers and the,

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you know, foundation of the brand story has been the same over time, it just, it does evolve and

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things start to just make a little bit more sense. And obviously I'd never done this before. I didn't

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know what brand pillars were. I didn't know anything about that. I just wanted to start

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a beautiful brand because I wanted the products. So, you know, the way I've kind of worked a bit

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backwards, but yeah, I would say the most important thing when you launch is to have a good business

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plan and a solid foundation for a brand story. And do you think that brands like yours are part of a

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growing kind of shift in the industry that sort of products to make us feel good as opposed to just

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look good? Absolutely. I think, you know, I am someone that doesn't wear loads of makeup. I'm

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tired all the time. My stress levels are through the roof. I'm always trying to find ways to make

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myself feel better. I like being at home. I love wellness, but I'm not like a gym bunny. So, you

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know, I'm just trying to find ways here and there that can help me. And interestingly, I was having

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a conversation with Mecca, the retailer in Australia. And I don't know if this is a secret,

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but anyway, whatever I'll just say it, they are merging their body care range with a category

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called well-being. So, you know, everything's kind of shifting to kind of merge any sort of product

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that's going to help you relax, reset, slow down. They're merging that with what's called well-being.

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And I think Sephora is going to do a sort of similar thing. It's not going anywhere. Well,

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wellness, you know, all of these anti-stress type things, we're getting more stressed by the day.

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So, I think it's a really growing category. And I think we'll see a lot more well-being brands

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popping up. Yeah. And it makes sense when you think about it because I feel like even like,

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if I kind of work out, which is a rarity these days, but when I do, it's, you know, you feel great

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in your body. And if you feel good, you feel better about your body as well. I find that my body image

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kind of, how I feel just within myself. Do you find that as well? Completely. It's so strange

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because like, I could wake up feeling like shit, hating myself. And I'll be like, oh, maybe I'll go

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for a walk along the canal. I'll go for a walk and come back. It's like, instantly, wow, I actually

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hate myself a little bit less. Yeah. That's nice. I don't know why I just do it every day. But I do

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think, you know, and part of the reason I wanted to launch Mirror Waters, because sometimes I think

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wellness can be a bit heavy on the guilt. And it can make you feel like you're not doing enough,

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you know, you're not going to fit into that particular size. You're not doing enough gratitude

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journaling. You know, all those things. I wanted to create a brand with a well with well being at

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its heart that accepted you as you are and like understand that some days you don't feel great

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or you don't look your best or feel your best, you know, and that's okay. And you don't always have

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to jump out of bed at five o'clock in the morning for your gratitude journal and your

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Pilates and your green juice before you're nine to five. Yeah. I know, that's definitely not an

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option for me. I mean, in the head by toddler at five a.m. this morning. So the idea of doing

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an hour of yoga and all of that. Yeah. Like, but like, don't you find that like, for instance,

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it's we're recording this on a Friday, I haven't been to the gym this week. I had high hopes on

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Sunday night. I was like, I'm going to try to get to a yoga class this week. I didn't. There's like

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an underlying negative feeling I have about that in myself. It's like a constant undercurrent of

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you're not doing enough. Yeah. I hate that feeling. I'm trying hard to work through that within myself.

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It's like cultural perfectionism. It's like you need to look after yourself, but perfectly, you

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know, yeah, yeah, completely. It's like we put pressure on ourselves even when we're trying

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to take the pressure off of ourselves, which is exactly. And that's why I love baths so much

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because the only thing you're supposed to do is chill. I like that dedicated time. And I think

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like, I always say, rest is productive. And I try to remember that resting is something positive

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you're doing for yourself. And just like I sort of like the schedule and meetings. And you know,

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all the things I need to do, like a dentist appointment, I have to schedule in my downtime

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just so I can get rid of the guilt. Like sometimes when I do a yoga class, they say at the beginning

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of the class, this hour is just for you. You have nowhere else to be. Don't think about that.

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Really helps me. So I kind of try to take the same approach to, to like my downtime.

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Yeah, I think it's so important to kind of proactively switch off as opposed to

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yeah, just trying to snap. Yeah, moments here and there. What was it like when you were growing?

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What was the beauty industry like when you were growing up? And how do you feel like it's changed,

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you know, in going on from what we were saying about kind of products to make you feel good,

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as opposed to look good. Do you think that that's kind of changed from when you were younger and

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sort of messages that were being marketed to you? Yeah, in Asia. I don't think anything was marketed

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towards you making you feel better about yourself when I was growing up. I mean,

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it's like you'll share your experience. Yeah, exactly. I remember going to Mac when I was

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probably like 14 or 15 in high school and all my friends and I just spending all of our money that

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we'd saved on like these heavy foundations and blushes and bronzers and whatever and mascara.

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And I at the time like felt if I don't have these things, I'm ugly or like I'm not going to fit in

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in like all of those things. That's so sad. I'm glad that's kind of going away. I mean,

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we've obviously are faced with other problems now, because now I think it's more about looking natural

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and looking perfect with no makeup. You know what I mean? It's like we've got other problems now.

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Yeah, it's kind of like you're damned if you do damned if you don't, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

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And what was it like kind of working with beauty brands in your early days as a content creator?

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Like how were you treated? And was there anything sort of surprising or challenging that sort of

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springs to mind? In the early days, it's just so I think a bit so fondly. I mean, I remember getting

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sent my very first product for free. It was the Liz Earl hot cloth cleanser. Oh, classic. And it was

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truly like I had won the lottery when that package came through my door. Like I couldn't believe it.

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A brand was sending me this for free. Like it's insane. Looking back, I had one of the top three

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beauty blogs in the UK, and I was getting millions of views a month. And obviously, I was, you know,

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helping them out by featuring it. But it wasn't positioned like that at the time. And I didn't

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feel that way. This was a much different era. And in a way, like I miss those days. Nobody will do

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anything for free anymore. And I understand this from both sides, because I'm a seasoned content

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creator who likes to get paid for the work I do. But equally now, I have a startup brand, and we

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truly have no money to pay people to do those things. And I think it's sad that it's kind of

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rarer and rarer for someone to feature a product just because they like it. You know, they're

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always looking for that paycheck. But equally, I get it. And especially with the rise of UGC,

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you know, I was doing UGC for 10 years for free. Yeah, you know, yeah. But obviously,

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I love that people are empowered to get paid for that. And they should get paid for that. But

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it's just harder now that I'm on the brand side. And I understand how difficult it is to get a

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brand off the ground. But when I was first starting, it was the Wild Wild West out there.

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Yeah, the best of times, the worst of times.

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No, for sure. And there's like, there's chatter online. I mean, I feel like this conversation

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has been around for years, but there was a brand that gifted influences, like I think it was a

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Cartier bracelet or something. Yeah. And people are now saying, look, we want to move away from

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that. We don't want to see influences being given these extravagant gifts. We want to see like

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customers, real people who actually love and use the brand. Like what's your kind of

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taker brand founder? You know, I think influencers, and I put myself in the category, obviously,

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our value is kind of going down because the audience, whether it's true or not, thinks that

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we're just getting paid to talk about something. So we don't really care about it. It's not,

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it doesn't hold as much weight as it used to be in the early days when we were just talking about

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things that we loved. I think now, you know, customer reviews, word of mouth, that is so

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important. And I don't know about you, but when I go on Instagram, everything I look at is an ad.

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And I'm not, I'm not really buying from that. Now I'm more look at influencers as a form of

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advertising. I don't think it's necessarily converting into sales like it once was. Like I

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remember back in the day, you know, if I mentioned a lipstick, it would sell out. Whereas now it's

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more sort of like, oh, I stay using that lipstick. That's cool. That looks really good on her. And

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then that customer will probably have to see that four or five more times somewhere else.

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It's just working with influencers in a bit of a different way now, I think. But absolutely,

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I think like micro influencers, nano influencers, their weight is amazing. And they have like

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genuine relationships with their audience that feels a little bit closer than at an

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arms length, which is maybe how it feels with some of the bigger influencers now.

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I can imagine. And when you kind of were putting together your strategy as a brand

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founder, did you kind of decide, right, I'm going to do X, Y and Z differently to when I was on the

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other end of this, when I was sort of being working with them? Yeah. Well, I had really grand

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ideas when I started the brand. I was like, I'm going to do this so differently. And then now

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that I'm on the other side, I'm like, actually, it's a lot harder to do things differently than I

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thought it was going to be. But I have to say, I have had so much support from other content

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creators and people in my network for the brand, you know, all of my friends have posted about

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the product, they do obviously believe in it. And actually, some of my friends have invested in the

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brand, which is amazing. That's like the ultimate belief. So I must say, like, I'm so grateful to

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anyone and everyone that's like mentioned the product, because without that, I just don't know

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how else we could get the word out. I mean, I can't afford to do paid media. I can't afford to do

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any marketing. I don't have press. You know, it's really hard to cut through the noise.

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I think now that we're three years on, I'm sort of starting to think, right, like, how can we work

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with influencers in a meaningful way? Of course, I can't afford those high rates. Like, I don't

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even take a salary from the company myself. So I don't have the money to do that. But I think,

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like, UGC is a great way to get content. And I think we'll start working with some

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creators for that. And also, I think just like personally reaching out to influencers and telling

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them the truth, like, hi, I must say, this is my brand. Like, I would love to send you some. I'm

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sorry, I don't have any budget to put behind this. But if you liked it, it would be amazing. And I

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think just like that transparency is what people like. And ultimately, you know, people do love

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to support small female founded businesses like other women in the industry. So, yeah, I'm really

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grateful. And I think I think that's probably the way I'm going to approach it from this point up

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until hopefully we get some money and then we can pay everyone and everyone.

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What were the biggest kind of, you know, challenges? I mean, I imagine it's terrifying. I mean, I've

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started a business, I don't even have a product and I find it terrifying. What were the biggest kind

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of unexpected challenges? Looking back kind of three years on?

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I really approached this brand completely naively. I knew it would be difficult. But

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you know what, if I knew how difficult it was going to be, I would never have done it. Truly,

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I never would have done it. It's just, it's exactly. So I'm glad in some ways. I think some of the

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most difficult things that I've had to learn is operational, logistical things. You know, we have

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a warehouse in the US. We have a warehouse in the UK, dealing with things like tax in the US and

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the UK, especially with everything that's going on politically. Supply chain. I didn't understand

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things like lead times, you know, my glass jars for my body oil, that might be on a 16-week lead time.

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I need to order the caps. That might be on a 27-week lead time, you know, and then managing

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cash flow on top of that. I don't know about these things. I've never gone to business school. I didn't

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even know what cash flow meant before I launched this company. But we're not bloody taught these

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things at school as well, which is annoying. It is annoying. But that's kind of my personal

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bugbear isn't it? Totally. I wish I just had a general idea of how to run a business. Yeah. And I

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thought in a way because I've been running my content creation business that I had a good idea

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of. No, I didn't know how to do this. I think also legal, there's a lot of legal loops to jump

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through, especially with beauty products. You know, you have to get your products tested. You have to

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get them registered. You have to have certain things on the packaging. You have to have certain

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font sizes on the packaging. You know, all of this costs so much money because I'm not an expert in

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it. I have to hire someone who knows about that. Otherwise, your product gets recalled, you're out

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of the business. So many things. Another hard thing is maintaining the Instagram page with what

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content, who's taking that content, who's photographing that content, who's writing the captions,

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who's writing our newsletter every week. We're a team of 2.5 people. And I'm also a full-time

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content creator. So it's truly, it can feel really, really overwhelming. So I feel like I'm drowning

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pretty much most days. But it's the only thing that gets me out of bed. I'm excited about it.

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I'm optimistic about it. So I think all entrepreneurs kind of love that mix of feelings, probably.

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What keeps you from consumed by that? How do you keep going?

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Well, I messaged one of my founder friends literally two days ago because I was like,

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I just don't know what's going to happen here, you know, with a certain situation. And she said,

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running a business is kind of like being a recovering alcoholic. You just have to take it one day at

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a time. And honestly, I will look at, say, it's like I'm stressing about finances, I'll look at the

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bank account one day, and I will literally not be able to sleep because I'm like, I don't know how

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I'm going to pay my staff. I don't know how I'm going to pay the warehouse. I don't know how to do

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all this stuff. And then a couple days will go by and you know what, I'm still here. Everything's

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going to be okay. And it's just things change so quickly when you have your own business. It's

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not a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's a climb. And every day you just have to

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basically do something. You don't have to solve every problem every single day. And I think

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that's one piece of advice I would give to people, you know, my inbox, I have at least four or five

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hundred emails that I need to reply to, they're all flagged. And I'm like, I can't get to all this

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today. And it's just like accepting that, which is so hard. It's really tricky, because there's

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just so many moving parts aren't there? And I'll just jump in one thing you said about all the

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moving parts. I think that's another thing that is is not really spoken about or understood before

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launching a business is how your brain needs to switch between in one hour even operations,

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then it'll be something about marketing, then it'll be a finance call. And then you have to talk

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about this and then you have to be creative and talk about product launches. It's like, your brain

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is in overdrive. And one thing that's helped me a lot is time blocking. And I'm not perfect at it.

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But I think that's sort of where that entrepreneurial fatigue has really hit me is like

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having to switch from subject matter to subject matter and having to like recalibrate my brain

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all the time. I'm trying to get better at saying, okay, I stay from nine in the morning until 10

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in the morning, you're going to deal with all of your product issues, then just focusing on that

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and not getting distracted by all the messages on Slack or the, you know, customer issue. And it

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does really, really help. Do you think you have to be a certain personality type to go into this

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go into this? I feel like myself personally, I think a lot of us call up we don't have any

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other choice because of things like anxiety or just being neurodiversity. And I'm still pushing

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to get a diagnosis for myself. But I feel like for me, like work choosing my own hours is the only

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way that my brain can function. Do you feel like that that some of us just don't fit into that

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regular nine to five mold and we have to come out and absolutely on our own.

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You're so right. There is no other option for me. I don't know how people go into work every day

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and sit around people all the time and have a smile on and get their work done. And I truly

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couldn't do it. Same. It's that kind of game face on office. Office chit chat was the one

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that you feel like. Nightmare. Yeah. Obviously, you know, if push came to shove, I would have to

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do it. But yeah, I definitely wanted to take like a chance at it. And I think if you are someone

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that's like has this idea and has this feeling of I want to do it, just try it. Just try it.

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Yeah. And I feel like when those moments come, we are just like, oh my God, how am I going to

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pay X, Y and Z? But things have a way of just maybe this is naive, but things have a way of

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working themselves out. Like, yeah, that's what I tell myself anyway. And one other thing that

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if I could start it over, I would do differently is I would start smaller. So I think like when

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I launched the brand, I sort of maybe had a little bit of ego and I was like, this is going to be

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like, you know, a huge launch and whatever else. And I don't think you need to start off

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huge, you know, start small. It's difficult with beauty brands because the minimum order

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quantities are so high. So like I had to make 5000 units of each product. That is a lot.

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Yeah. And if you think about like the money behind that, so like if just say my body oil,

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which this is a fake price, just say it costs 10 pounds, which it doesn't, but just say it's it,

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you know, I have to order 5000 of those and I have three products. So you guys listening can do the

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math. It's like, where is that money coming from? And then how do you replenish that? It's like,

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I wish maybe I started with one product. I wish I started found a manufacturer who could make a

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smaller run. I wish I just started smaller. So if anyone's listening, you know, there is no shame

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in starting a bit smaller and growing. And I wish I did that. And what's it like speaking to

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kind of investors and retailers and people like that? Like, it is, you know, how do you kind of

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approach that having kind of not got into business before? And like you say, kind of being very new

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to this. I'm not going to, that was kind of quite, you know, intimidating to say the least. How do

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you deal with that? Well, I raised some money during COVID to launch the brand because like I

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just mentioned the prices of launching the products. And also, you know, things like trademarks and

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websites. So I had, I did my first investor pitch during COVID over zoom. I didn't know what I was

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talking about. I rehearsed several, several times with other people who have done it before. But

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honest to God, I don't think I've ever been so nervous in my life. And he was a man. And I just

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felt less than I felt like I didn't know the answers to anything. I really didn't understand the

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finances. You know, I still have a lot of room to learn with the finance department because my

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brain just doesn't work that way. But anyway, I got through it and I came out a better person. I

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have since done probably hundreds, if not thousands of pitches to investors and most of them end with

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a no. That's the thing. Yeah, it's really, really tough. And it's hard to deal with the rejection.

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But then you occasionally get a yes and they're an amazing partner. And I have some amazing angel

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investors in the brand. And you're like, okay, it's validating. And then with retailers, I love

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speaking to retailers because they get the vision most of the time. And you know, we have so many

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amazing retail partners, Space MK Liberty. We're launching with Selfridges soon. You can't get

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any better than that really. Like they're so amazing. And when you have those buyers saying we

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believe in the brand, and it's so, so gorgeous and whatever, it's like, okay, so I should just

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keep going. And those are all those little things that as a founder, you kind of have to hold on to

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when you're getting rejected and yet another investor pitch.

391
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It must be so tricky. And how did you kind of go into developing? So I love the brand's sort of,

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you know, such a unique kind of look and feel and like personality. Can you give us a little

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insight into, into the process? Like how much of yourself was in the brand? And did you kind of

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struggle with not knowing where kind of you ended in the brand began, so to speak?

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Yes. Well, I knew I wanted the brand to have its own name and its own identity. So it's called

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Mirror Water because it's all about self reflection and going inwards and looking at your life and

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yourself in the mirror, blah, blah, blah, I could go on about that. And I knew the sort of gist of

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what I wanted to have this sort of like ethereal, like kind of ripples and maybe spirals and things

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like that. But equally, I am not a designer. So I was introduced to an amazing designer based in

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Australia. Her name is Manuely and I still work with her today. So we've been working together

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for at least four and a half, maybe almost five years, because it took about two years to develop

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the brand before I launched it. And she took all of my mood boards and turned it into this amazing

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Mirror Water world, which truly is like better than anything I ever could have imagined. So I have

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to give all the credit to her. She really like saw what I was trying to do and elevated it.

405
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Were you together? You're like, holy shit, this is actually the most.

406
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Yeah, I know. And as soon as I saw the logo, because first of all, when I wanted to name it

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Mirror Water, everyone said no. Everyone was like, that is the most stupid name. It's way too long.

408
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It's not going to fit on any of your packaging. It's not memorable. It's a mouthful. And I just,

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I love it. I'm not just saying that. Like I really, thank you. I love it too. I think it's different.

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And I'm so glad I went with it because now it's like one of the most complimented things about

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the brand. So that's another lesson in trusting your instincts. And yeah, so I have to say my

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designer is amazing. And then I have a great, like a small but mighty team of people who help with

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like the Instagram and everything. And I have to say, like, I just let them run with it. So it's

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run by Holly, who's my full time employee. She's our brand marketing manager. And yeah, she's just

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taken like the initial design that Manuely did and turned it into like a more social friendly

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look and feel. So I think I'm a big believer in like when you hire someone, you need to let them

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fly with what they do best. And although it is hard as a founder to give up control, I think she's

418
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done an amazing job. What's it like kind of managing a team because I'm personally

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shit at managing people. And that sort of terrifies me. And I think you could be good at your job.

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But then kind of managing people is a whole completely different skill set. I mean, you

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might be very good at it. I don't know. If I didn't have to be doing content creation,

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like if that wasn't part of my life, I think I would be a much better manager because I would

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have more time to manage and prep and plan. But it'll be like a Sunday night at nine o'clock

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at night. And I'm trying to think like, okay, what should the team be working on to this week?

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You know, there are it's managing people is hard. And to anyone out there who has done it and is

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good at it, like that, that's another skill that I would love to get better at. It's, it's quite

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difficult. I'm not the best at it, but we use things like Slack and Notion. And that helps keep

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everything in place. And I think like, ultimately, the most important thing is people need to know

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what they're working on. They need to know what they're doing. And I'm a very involved founder,

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like every single day I'm talking to the team on Slack and I'm not just kind of like running around,

431
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you know, not plugging in. I'm, I am very, very hands on, maybe sometimes a little too hands on.

432
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Well, it's good. I think it's to be expected when it's your brand. And do you believe in like

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00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:31,280
manifestation? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think we have to, don't we? I'm just manifesting everything

434
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at the moment. Yeah, I think we have to. Yeah, I think like, I think Oprah said this, and she said,

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a lot of people don't get to where they want to go because they don't know where they want to go.

436
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And I think that is really true. Like if I don't say I want to launch at this retailer by the end

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of this year and work backwards, how am I ever going to make that happen? And things don't just

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fall on your lap. So I don't believe in like blind manifestation, but I do believe in like setting

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a goal and working towards it. I think it's like creating a psychological roadmap, isn't it? And

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just yeah, the end of our time. But I wanted to just ask you like if there's anything that you

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could go back and tell your 19 year old self when you were starting out, what would it be?

442
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Save your money. My mom used to tell me that all the time. And I would never do. You never do.

443
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No, but in all seriousness, if I could go back, you know what, I'm really like happy with the way

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I went about everything. But I think I would just go back and say, how do I put this? I think when

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I was 19, I was just kind of going with the flow. And like, I thought, okay, I'm going to be a content

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creator and whatever. And whatever. I kind of had a one track mind about what it looks like to be

447
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a content creator and what my career would be. And I just kind of focused on that. I wish I

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felt empowered, younger to start my own type of company or to start at least learning and

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investing in my future, like taking more business courses. Even though I didn't necessarily know

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how to apply those skills, I wish I would have just started learning about that stuff back then

451
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when I had more time, even though I felt like I had no time, you know, learning things like how to

452
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use Excel. Wish I knew. Yeah, it's so true. I think entrepreneurship is the only way that we will

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ever achieve true equality and empowerment. I think trying to kind of change the way traditional

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companies operate is just, you know, the wrong way to go about it. I think we should, yeah,

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just do it for ourselves as they, as Aretha Franklin said, completely. Well, we're at the end of our

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time. But essay, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate how insanely busy you probably are.

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So really, really grateful and it's been lovely chatting with you. Thank you. You've also helped

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me work out a few things in my head as well. So I feel better coming out of the conversation.

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I hope you enjoyed that episode. All links will be in the show notes and feel free to visit

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smartbeautycreative.com or visit us over on Instagram to find out more about what we do.

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And if you enjoyed listening, please don't forget to rate and review smart beauty on iTunes as it

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helps people find us. See you next time.