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Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. I'm your host, Viola Levy, beauty journalist

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and founder of Copilot branding agency, Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to create your

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brand voice and craft the story behind it. In this episode we explore the rise of Dr.

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Led skincare brands with our guest Dr. Sabrina Shah, a UK trained oculoplastic surgeon and

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aesthetic practitioner with decades of experience and numerous accolades. She recognized a significant

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gap in effective science-backed solutions for the eye area, so she harnessed her extensive

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expertise to develop her eponymous skincare line. Her collection addresses common concerns

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such as dark circles, puffiness, fine lines and wrinkles, using clinically proven ingredients

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supported by independent studies. We discuss the challenges and successes of building a

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skincare brand rooted in medical expertise and discover how Dr. Sabrina is transforming

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the landscape of skincare with her innovative, patient-focused approach. Hope you enjoy our

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chat. Thank you so much Dr. Sabrina for being on the podcast and to kick things off I'd

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love to hear a little bit more about why you decided to focus on oculoplastic surgery in

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particular because I know you've been in aesthetic medicine for over two decades now. So what

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was it about this particular area that interested you so much?

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So just a little bit of background. First of all Leola, thank you so much for inviting

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me on the podcast. My name is Sabrina Shah. I am an ophthalmologist and an ophthalmic

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plastic reconstructive surgeon. So we shorten it to oculoplastics. So my core training is

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actually as an eye surgeon, an ophthalmologist and in another life more than 25 years ago

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I did cataract surgeries too. And I was always interested in plastic surgical procedures around

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the eye area purely because the eye is such a delicate structure and it's the minutiae

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of the eyes along with the anatomical layers which are really, really delicate. That is

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a challenge. I mean it's a fine skill and I think it's an art form really and so that's

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what really attracted me to plastic surgical procedures particularly around the eyes and

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the natural extension of that was going into aesthetic medicine and just so that it's a

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little more artistic as far as I'm concerned but still very grounded in science and again

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around the very delicate area of the eye. So that's what drives me, the art and science

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of aesthetic medicine and oculoplastic surgery.

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And we've got the amount of new technologies that are kind of cropping up at the moment.

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Are there any that you think are kind of that merit the enthusiasm? Are there any kind of

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trends that you're a bit skeptical about because it can be a bit of a mixed bag, can't it?

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Yeah, I mean definitely. I'll tell you what, every week almost it seems like there's this

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new groundbreaking treatment with unlimited exciting possibilities and incredible potential.

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I think from all that hype there are some technologies that are really exciting and

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innovative particularly the innovations in lasers which are making them less painful

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with less downtime and more able to treat skin of color safely and I think that's what

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is really exciting. I think the way ultrasound has developed, I mean Ultherapy was the first

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FDA approved ultrasound device and now we've got SoftWave which I've got in my clinic and

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it's phenomenal. The results we see with SoftWave, you know synchronous beams of ultrasound.

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So the treatments have got faster, less painful, less side effects, less adverse events and

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it's corroborated by hard evidence, clinical trials that show, you know, clinical studies

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that show that these work. So I think these treatments are worth the hype. I think in

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terms of exciting new frontiers, definitely autologous exosomes and stem cell therapy

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is very exciting but I don't think we're there yet in terms of all the claims. I think there

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are some claims that do work and it's exciting. I mean we have autologous exosomes in our

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clinic too but I don't think that all the hype around it is there 100% and then 100%

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in terms of the stuff that's being done like, you know, exosomes in skincare, I don't think

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that stability factor of it is questionable. You know, microcurrent facials work but then

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the short term, I think that, you know, these cryo facials and what the long-term effect

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of this kind of really subzero temperatures or really cold temperatures doing on the skin,

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working on the skin is a concern for me. The sort of vegan injectables can be misleading

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because, you know, these products are synthetic and they may not be more safer or more effective

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than traditional options. So I think there's a trend, a lot of marketing hype that needs

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to be separated from the scientific evidence but yes, I mean there are treatments that work,

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they're worth the hype as I mentioned and then there are some that are perhaps in that

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watch this space innovation and then there are just some that, you know, they just come

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and go, they're just like fads.

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For sure and just to clarify exosomes, is that to do with fat transfer and how does

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that? No.

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So exosomes are extracellular vesicles. So they are parts of your cell that are released

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by the cell and they contain mRNA, DNA, which is your, you know, genetic code and they work

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like signaling messengers and they signal the messengers to heal, to regenerate, you

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know, and there are different types of autologous, there are different types of exosomes. What

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was a big buzz was human derived, that means it came from another human being and that's

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illegal in UK.

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Yes, yeah, I was hearing, I was reading about that.

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That's illegal in UK but of course a lot of practitioners were practicing it and were

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injecting it and they were just getting disclaimers from the patients and then came plant-based

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exosomes which is a bit dubious again because, you know, of the mimicking of human DNA. We

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don't know if plant exosomes mimic human DNA this closely and whether they will signal

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appropriately but I think plant-based exosomes in topical skin care can be interesting and

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now we've got your own stem cells or autologous exosomes which are a type of stem cell and

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in our clinic we take it from your platelets. So the first pass is like creating PRP and

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then the second pass is an ultra filtration and so it is completely your own and we use

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it for hair, it re-densifies hair, encourages hair growth, you need less treatments of it,

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we use it for skin rejuvenation and particularly for inflammatory skin conditions like psoriasis

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etc and it's got, you know, good results with it but we're not there yet with all the evidence-based

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publications on it. It is exciting, we're seeing it, I think in a few years we will have,

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you know, the hard evidence to support it. I think it's a bit like nutraceuticals and

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hydrolyzed collagen, I know, you know, five years ago we were saying, oh, it doesn't work

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and now everybody takes it, you know, just accepted that there are good randomized controlled

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trials that show that the cocktails work of new physical cocktails along with hydrolyzed

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collagen so I just think it's one of those things where definitely, I think in the area

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like the eyes you don't really want to start playing fast and loose, if you feel like the

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technology isn't quite there yet, it's one area that you don't really want to gamble with,

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isn't it? Exactly. And I imagine like you have a lot of patients coming to you with concerns,

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what are the most common ones that you see in your clinic? So, you know, it's really

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interesting, the eyes are the biggest non-verbal communicators of the most. Yes, definitely,

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good nose to the soul and all that. Yeah, but even I tell you the number of times I hear in a day

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that I look tired, not me, but my patients come in and they tell me that they look tired. And the

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reason they come in is because tiredness can come from saggy eyelids, hooded eyelids, it can come

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from saggy brows, it can come from very deep hollow temples, which can make you look gaunt,

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it can come from the under eye hollows that can make the under eye look dark, it can come from

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just dark circles because of skin hyperpigmentation, it can come from eye bags. So the whole peri orbital

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area which is involves like the ski goggle area of the face is so important for non-verbal communication

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and that people just end up looking tired and they don't feel tired and I hear this all the time,

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they come, they say, you know, I just look tired and I don't feel tired. And so rejuvenating that

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area, it's like just turning back the clock 10, 20 years, you know, it is like changing. And I think

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that's what is another thing that I love about it is that it's how it suddenly emotionally changes

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the person or how you're perceiving the person from, you know, either operating in this area or

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giving treatments in this area. So yeah, that's the commonest thing I hear in my clinic. We also

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and skin, you know, the skin is the biggest envelope and the eyelid skin is unique, but facial

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skin when you get older and it becomes dehydrated, thin, slack and sags and has an uneven tone,

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it's interesting, people look tired. And if I, you know, just show people the results of treatments

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or just energy based or skin tightening treatments or even a simple like skin booster treatment to

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restore hydration back in the skin, the person looks less tired and they may still have the

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same facial features, but it's just the glow of the skin that changes and it just makes you look

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healthier. And I think that's what is really interesting. And that's what people come and see

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me for. Excuse me, because it's not about necessarily looking, it's not about necessarily

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looking younger, is it? It's just looking more refreshed. It's a healthier, more awake version

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of you. That's the kind of goal that people aim for. Exactly. With people getting, you know,

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you can get Botox in your forehead or for your crow's feet, but then I think people are then

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paranoid that because their foreheads smooth as an egg, their eyes look older or kind of more tired

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in contrast. Do you see that's a common concern in your clinic? Yeah. And I think that's why we've

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moved away from frozen, the kind of look of Botox. And I still see it on some people where

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there's no movement of the eyebrow and they just want it completely frozen. And actually, it makes

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the eye area in some people look really harsh because there's, you know, no emotion, you're

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almost dead because you don't have a little bit of movement. But, you know, we do baby Botox,

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we do very delicately nuanced toxin treatments so that you still retain facial expression

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and emotion because that's what you have to, that's what a natural look is about.

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Definitely. And you advocate more of a holistic approach, would you say? Yeah. And I started

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that many, many years ago. So you're absolutely right. I mean, I'm 25 years into this business of

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surgery and about 17 years of non-surgicals. And essentially, very early on, I trademarked

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a concept of mine. It was called Perfect 360. And that is trademarked. And it's a concept of

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looking at surgery and non-surgical interventions, both energy-based skin tightening and, you know,

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dermal fillers, toxins, combined with surgery. So it's a very holistic approach to restore

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back harmony of the face and balance of the face, not just the eyes.

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And when we met, there was something you said that really kind of stayed with me,

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that when you came over here from India, where you were from, dark circles weren't

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seen as an issue because everyone had them, they were kind of a natural genetic

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feature of most people. But when you came over to the UK, you were made to feel that

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that was a problem. Do you think that's kind of an issue with the industry, that they create

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problems that might not otherwise be seen as such? Because they are, with some people,

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dark circles are just a natural genetic feature, right? So how do you kind of approach that when

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it comes to treating them yourself? I mean, that's interesting. Like I came to England in 1995.

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So obviously at that point, you know, aesthetics and social media was, it's not fully developed as

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it is now. And, but it was just a cultural thing because obviously, you know, I had genetic dark

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circles and I was surrounded by people who didn't have genetic dark circles. And so I think it was

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just that they didn't understand it. And they kept asking me if I was tired. And, but what I see now

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is that marketing around beauty treatments really emphasizes correcting flaws. So it sees even

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wrinkles or a slightly uneven skin tone or facial asymmetry as a flaw, which then leads people to

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feel very pressurized to conform to certain beauty standards. And I don't think these are

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attainable by everybody. And I also don't think they're realistic because it plays have a quick

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mental health. And you only have to see how many people are using filters all the time. And, you

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know, we never did these many selfies. We never had 100% you know, cell phones, first of all,

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look how they've advanced with all these kinds of with the selfie, then the filters. And, you know,

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they've got used to seeing themselves in a filtered reality, or, you know, which is not

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really how they look in real life. And, and then they want to look like that through so surgical

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and non-surgical treatments. And I think that this is a concern is a definite concern. We're

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seeing more and more mental health issues in the younger and younger and younger users. But I also

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see mature people coming to me because now they feel under pressure. They never ever considered it.

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But they suddenly feel like, you know, everybody around them is getting fillers and toxin and,

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you know, surgery and they feel like formal, you know, so, so there is a society

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of pressure. But I think that I think ethical responsible medical professionals

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really need to educate and they need to use the consultation as a tool to educate and empower

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their patients rather than pressurize them. You know, so I do a lot I use I mean, every patient

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of mine is actually assessed with with the photograph. It's multiple photographs from

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different angles of their face. And every time they come in the same photographs are taken and we

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look at because sometimes they come in and they tell me they want more and I tell them go home,

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you don't need more. And sometimes they'll be pointing at an area and then when we look at

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the face, we realize that there's something else. It there's another area that needs to be

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anatomically supported. And that's how I look at fillers, you know, that we're providing hydration,

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we're providing some anatomical support, but we don't want to balloon a face. And, you know,

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that's that's something that we've learned the hard way because obviously, you know, 20 years ago,

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people were just ballooning the face 10 years ago, people were just ballooning the face. And now we

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understand that we really need to be mindful of how fillers are going to last and the adverse events

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of 20 years of having fillers in somebody's face. Yes, because we don't really know how they behave

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over time. I think that's the problem with a lot of these treatments. Like with bat injections,

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for example, like if somebody injects fat from their stomach into their face, you don't know

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that fat's going to behave in the same way as facial fat would over like, you know, the next 20

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or 30 years. It's really interesting. You see that's a Coleman Coleman was the person who had

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started off the fat transfer. And what they saw is when women gained weight, if they had used,

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it was a fact, it was a thicker kind of fact they were putting in. And these fat

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transfers, you know, they grew, they became bulkies. So the face grew. So that led to a new era of,

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you know, using micro fat, not the bulky fat and using around the eye nano fat. But there's just

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been an interesting publication, I think coming out of the Far East, I was reading it last week,

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and it looks at the variable resorption of fat. And one of the things is with fat is it's fantastic,

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it's your own tissue. And, you know, when it works, it works beautifully, but there's a variability

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to the resorption. And that's, you know, what that means, the way it absorbs, right? And it can be

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lumpy, it can be bumpy, and the risk to sight loss is the same, if not more than doing HA fillers.

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But if you, if I were to say that we now have more than 20 years of evidence with HA fillers,

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and that's why we're seeing that fillers can migrate, they can swell, and we retain them for

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years and years and years, and they don't go away. And it's not dissimilar to what happened with

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breast implants. So we realized that, you know, if you've had a breast implant 20 years down the road,

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that breast implant probably needs to change because it can leak. You know, the, and so we're

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learning that. So it's not like it's all just fillers are bad, we're learning that even the

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procedures, the long-term outcomes of them, they're not always risk-free, you know.

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But I think in the end, you know, education and I think the self-image that you're cultivating,

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you know, and I'm all the time encouraging realistic outcomes and advocating just, you know,

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small tweaks rather than drastic changes in my patients and, and so they still look like them.

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It's not like, exactly.

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I'm forming into someone else, but do you get patients that bring you a photo of them with a

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filter on it and say, can you make me look like that?

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100%. I think sometime ago, I did a post which, which, which a lot of other practitioners

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reposted it was my own photograph in the plane. And I just moved my head from one side, it took

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a selfie and then the other side. And on one side, you could see a mild eye bag under my eye on the

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other side when I tilted my head. It looked beautifully smooth. And I get this all the time.

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Patients come and show me their iPhone pictures at different angles. They show me filtered images

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and they say, I used to look like this, but then, you know, overnight, I don't look like that anymore.

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And they really, really believe that. They truly believe that. But we, we know from reams of, like,

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you know, studies that people delete their pictures, they take about 20, 25 pictures before you,

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you keep one or two from that series where you feel that that's your self image. That's what the picture

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you're happy with. So, yeah, we see that I see this all the time. Luckily, I don't have a huge practice

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of young people. And I, and I'd say that the reason I don't have, I don't encourage it. First of all,

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I don't see anybody, you know, under the age of 21 in my clinic. But I don't encourage it because

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of my kind of social media posting. So what I put out there on all my platforms is very responsible

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and it's very empowering. And I'm, I'm not just hopping onto a fad or a trend or click-baiting

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people because I'm not really interested in having gazillion million followers. You know, I'm not an influencer

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in, in terms of trying to promote, you know, just rubbish on, on, on the, on the gram. What I'm really interested in is, is, is educating in a responsible manner.

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And so my social media is very responsible when I talk and, and that's the kind of people you attract. So I attract patients now who are realistic,

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who understand that, you know, that they, they're not going to go to somebody who's going to do something very drastic or who's just going to encourage them to put a lot in their face.

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And I think that's where this industry needs to be regulated and what's being said on social media and on websites needs to be regulated too.

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It's terrifying because it's hardly, there's hardly any regulation at all. And you see these girls who are 21 and younger having copious amounts of filler and lip fillers.

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And I wonder like, what, what are these people going to look like sort of 20, 30 years down the line when they're already tell you they're coming for dissolving and they're a mess because we were already seeing it.

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Remember, fillers have been around for more than 20 years. And these, these girls have just started putting whatever they wanted in whatever quantity they wanted.

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And they chose on price and they chose on marketing spiel are coming to have a dessert and they, they regret it.

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It's quite frightening.

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I mean, we can talk about regulation in the aesthetic industry. I mean, when it comes to surgical procedures, what do you think about the current rules and standards in place when it comes to like aesthetic, like cosmetic surgery.

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Do you think that there's still more work to be done on that front?

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There's a lot of work to be done in terms of training and qualifications.

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First of all, both, where whilst surgical procedures are a bit more regulated and a lot gets done a lot of people fly in, perform surgery and they fly out.

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A lot of, you know, there's it's a training and qualifications thing a lot of people go online and suddenly become, you know, they don't have the experience but they they're very clever on how to present themselves so they talk the talk, but they really can't walk.

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But they really can't walk the walk, but patients don't know.

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And I think that that is a concern.

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Even even with Botox, while Botox is prescription only medication and it's, you know, at least UK has managed to regulate that much.

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They haven't regulated the minimally invasive treatments either they've not regulated in terms of the training and qualifications they just rely on a couple of certificate courses and then you go and get the experience.

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So I think a lot of that and advertising and ethical practices, you know, so it is, we definitely need stricter regulations for both medical professionals and non medical professionals.

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You know, and who can perform these procedures and I think a licensing system that requires comprehensive training, you know, and certification is what is required.

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100% because I think some countries only certain individuals are allowed to do procedures like certain a qualified right now here, you know, you can you can just go online and I know people who have who call themselves plastic surgeons but they, they have never worked as a consultant plastic surgeon they've

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dropped out halfway through their rotation programs so basically, you know, yeah.

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So there's a lot of that that you hear often like don't go abroad like the UK has reputable surgeons and if you go abroad you're not going to get that same quality but I guess even even here there's still dodgy practices and.

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Yeah, I think I think that you know there are good practitioners and I think this is where the patient has to really becomes very important that the patient understands to not be be gaslighted in a way by the medical practitioner and not to be taken in by the marketing, the slickness of the website the

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slickness of the Instagram, you know, or their ticktock. I mean that is not really you know you need to do your research you need to.

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Look at reviews. Because, you know, in my day you could buy reviews but now nobody buys reviews because you get penalized by Google.

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So reviews are a very good point to start because you can't buy reviews.

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And you look at a couple of things and you look at how experienced they are, how many years they've done it,

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and experience in that particular procedure that you want.

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Yes.

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Oftentimes what I see is like a breast surgeon is doing a tummy tuck or anaboo job and then offers them an upper lip blepharoplasty at a discount, right?

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And they'll go for the whole shebang.

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And I think that kind of incentivization is a real concern for me.

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It doesn't mean the surgeon doesn't know what they're doing or they're not experienced enough.

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But it's the fact that you've sort of incentivized the patient to go and have an extra procedure just on price.

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And so therefore they choose not to go to somebody who specializes in that area.

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Yes.

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But they go to a general plastic surgeon.

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I think that's the concern.

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And let's talk about your range.

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So you created Dr. Sabrina Perfect Eyes to compliment your treatments in your clinic.

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Did you see a kind of real need for good quality products for the eye area that the current skincare market wasn't really offering?

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Yeah.

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I mean, 100%.

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So all through my formative years, I had patients telling me they had dark circles and they would either react because certain skin types,

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but have because the under eye skin is so thin and delicate and it's naturally dehydrated because it doesn't have a large volume of oil glands.

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It loses its barrier function very quickly and you have to be very, very careful of what you're applying on it.

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But also a lot of because it's so close to the eye.

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You want to make sure that, you know, it's a sensitive skin.

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So you want to make sure that the products are formulated so that they don't cause irritation and they can be used near the eye.

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So I think that I found that whilst there were a lot of products out there for the under eye area cheap and to really, really luxury high end premium.

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You know, if they didn't address the three common things my patients were coming and telling me and what we see as evidence of how the under eye age is.

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So everybody is going to age with thinning skin that is getting darker and ring clear.

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So I wanted to create a product that had that address that.

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And then everybody eventually gets a bit of an eye bag. So I wanted something that would depuff that under eye area and tighten and lift.

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And I also wanted to have something that would restore barrier function and would be preventative anti aging just but looking at all the various factors that affect.

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So my product, the first product I came out with the IC room has actually 11 actives in it, which we don't normally see in an under eye product.

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We normally see maybe one, two, maybe three actives in it because everybody's a bit worried about putting actives on such delicate skin.

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But I had to really work with a formulator to make sure that it was safe for the under eye area.

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And that's that patent pending molecule called Chiara molecule, because it has actives that are looking at pigmentation, they're tickling the skin, they're working on the sensitive on the barrier function of the skin.

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They're antioxidant rich.

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And they're working on hyper pigmentation and also depuffing the eye.

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So and it comes, I wanted it in a rollerball. I wanted it to be gender neutral.

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I wanted the person to carry it in their handbag or their gym bag, the plane.

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And so it's, you know, it's, it's really versatile and it lasts three months and we have lovely feedback on it.

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I have so many people who just absolutely love it and say that they've noticed such a significant difference with it.

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So that was my first product and I've just launched an LED, which is amazing home care.

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And again, you know, LEDs, properly made LEDs that are, you know, this LED that I have is FDA approved in USA this, you know, so it's, it works, it's red in your infrared and the clinical studies support that it stimulates collagen elastin reduces fine lines wrinkles and helps with dark circles and deep puffs the eye and

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it you only have to use it three times a week for 10 minutes.

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And I often I'm working or watching TV when I use it.

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So I was looking to create all my aim was always to create something that people would use that would fit in with their lifestyle.

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That was scientifically sound result driven and pretty much covering a vast majority of skin types.

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I did not want to exclude any gender, any skin type.

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And I didn't want to make it cumbersome, you know, because once it becomes difficult, nobody uses it.

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And with LEDs, they're fantastic.

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But when you go on a holiday or when you're traveling, it's a big ass piece of kit and really what area that you really need to look after all the time is the under eye area because you're going out in the sun.

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You know, you're you're you're exposing that delicate skin.

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And that's why I think the LED works so well because it's a little pouch, everything fits in it and it's rechargeable comes with the two years, you know, manufacturers warranty.

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And so that was my whole aim to create lifestyle suitable.

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You know, targeted care for the peri orbital area.

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So I think what do you say that if you're going to invest in any area of your face, then the orbital area is the place where you should be really investing when it comes to skin care and sort of gadgets sort of lift that, you know, to give you that kind of lifted

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radiant look for people that are worried about looking time.

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I think and I think this that you should be starting it sooner, rather than fillers.

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So, you know, you see all these young girls and you know, they look, I say love Island but they're they're looking at this kind of look, and they're so enhanced, but actually, we really, and they've been articles saying how they look much older than what they actually

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are.

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And that's pumping their face full of this kind of stuff but really all you want to do is is is work on your cellular renewal.

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You know, eat well nutritious food that is nutrient dense fiber rich because there's a huge gut skin access.

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Yes, definitely.

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Learn to look after your skin from inside and then do these topical skincare and LED because it's all preventative and that's what you should be doing when you're in your 20s and carrying it on.

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You shouldn't really be pumping yourself with fillers in your 20s.

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But it's kind of that immediate gratification isn't I think that's why people just immediately jump to fill it because you're getting that instant effect.

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People don't want to have to wait sort of however many weeks for a topical product.

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The problem is with that instant gratification, they also get instant complications because they're just going they're choosing on price.

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And and and that's the issue that they get it done. And then I can honestly tell you I have a huge complications practice and the number of young people who come to me and I'm just dissolving.

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And it's a mess they have you know fastoons and mailer bags and then they're spending so much money to try to rectify what they should have just been very careful about right in the beginning.

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And how easy is it to rectify.

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It just depends you know some people if it's caught early, it's dissolved early, the skin snaps back and they're they're fine.

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And some people who've just not stopped and have had loads and loads and loads and you know have significant swelling which has stretched their skin.

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And they sit on it they wait because they're too scared to get anything done that really distorts the anatomy and then the recovery of that takes time.

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But I still think that you know four to six months after they've had their procedures they're dissolving the surgical procedures or the non surgical procedures to tighten their skin etc.

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They are in a much better place six months down the road.

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You know, there's a lot of misconceptions with regards to products for the eye.

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In general, as a beauty journalist you hear sort of conflicting information where some people are like oh you can just use a face cream and just take it up to the eye area.

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How do you educate people with your brand as to the importance of using a specific product for the orbital area.

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And that's a huge challenge I think for brand founders is you also have to educate customers as opposed to just telling them you've got a great product.

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It's that scientific detail isn't it but obviously you don't want to kind of include too much, you know, science journals.

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Yeah, I don't think I've got the balance right to be honest because you know sometimes I can just practice on about the the evidence and the and that that can just that's not what the consumers looking for.

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I think in very simplistic terms the eyelid skin is so thin that and sensitive that you don't really want to have the level of actives that are there in face creams put in the under eye area.

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You know their eye creams are typically designed for very small quantities and you just gently tap it into the eye you don't really rub it in it's very different.

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You know and you can use serums you can use moisturizing eye creams, but they are fragrance free they have to be fragrance free because otherwise you can get an allergic reaction to to the product and a lot of face creams will have fragrance in it.

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So I think that in terms of education. It's important to just speak to people so that they understand that these are all the things that your under eye is prone to developing and getting and therefore you need to choose a product that is scientifically formulated

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and more targeted for the under eye area. It doesn't always work viola to be honest, you know, not everybody wants is drawn to scientific evidence. Yeah, to results.

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I mean, a lot of what we see in the industry is they're they're enamored by celebrity endorsements. They're enamored by these influencer posts, you know, perhaps I need to be dancing with the eye serum.

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And it more people will learn to the educational content but it's just one of those things that it's actually what the consumer how consumers consume the educational material or the information is so very.

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And not all of them are interested in the safety, efficacy and integrity of the product, you know, or the scientific evidence behind it. And so I think that's where the balance is difficult, particularly for Dr. Lead Brands, you know, as opposed to celebrity or just large big

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pama companies or postmaceutical companies. I mean, let's be honest, we can never compete with people like L'Oreal and Estee Lauder they own half the brands they own good medical grade skincare brands too.

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But they, they're like everywhere, you know, so they have.

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It's like, they own the Asda and the little and they own the Waitrose and the Harrods. So they've got the whole spectrum and they've got the power behind them to market. So, you know, I think people are going to independent brands like yours because you have that sort of unique

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voice you're not kind of beholden to like a border, you know, an executive board, for example. So I think that's what people like is that those kind of pioneering lines where they are kind of independent and unbiased, shall we say.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that they like medical expertise because I think they understand the doctors are bound by code of conduct. I have to be very careful. I mean, I, you know, I wouldn't let my marketing team come up with any claims that, you know, the bot just like that.

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Exactly. It's got that built in authority having you at the helm and your credentials that kind of gives people that peace of mind without them having to sort of trench through a load of different sort of marketing tools to work out.

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So I think people who do buy the products and you know, I have patients who trust and they just buy it because they trust me because they know I've invested in the science and the evidence and the studies and, you know, and they trust the product.

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But I think I, you know, so they're always going to be doctorate brands and there's always going to be, you know, these other brands that are out there and it doesn't, I wouldn't say one is superior to the other, because as I said, you know, a company like L'Oreal has got these medical grade with and they and they do put in a lot of

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like things like skin pseudocals, they get dermatologists involved, plastic surgeons involved, and they do a whole body of research. So, you know, it's not like they don't do, they don't work on evidence based formulations.

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But I think that medical grade is sorry, doctorate brands are niche. And there always be consumers who will veer towards doctorate brands because they trust them and they trust the expertise and they also realize that doctorate brands like mine, for instance, is tailored to a specific area specific

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concern. And that's very niche. You know, I'm not doing the whole face, I am only sticking to my area of expertise. And so it's a very niche product, it's a targeted sound product. And I think that's what consumers like.

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But we'll never, we'll never hit the mass market with it.

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Do you think that doctorate brands are kind of, I see them as kind of the future of skincare because you've got that expertise and authority built in to the brand's DNA. It's not like you have to really prove, prove yourself in that sense.

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I don't think it's actually I don't think it's the future of skincare to be honest, Viola, I think that, you know, consumers that are looking for professional grade skincare to address specific concerns will veer towards the doctorate brands, but not every

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customer shops that way, you know, I think the people are just so cynical about how they're being sold to and the claims that companies are putting out there. I think they're just happy to kind of sort of have any kind of stamp of authority aren't they in that

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sense. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

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And, yeah, it's just so interesting, like, what other reasons do you think people like sort of Dr. Lead Brands because you sort of talk about the fact that you've got that sort of medical reputation but you sort of see any other reasons why they are.

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I mean, I think, you know, most Dr. Lead Brands are very strongly focused on education and results. And, you know, using ingredients, sourcing ingredients that are medical grade ingredients that, you know, they were very, I'm very particular about what went into my product, you know, and I think

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almost other doctors who have their brands and I speak to are the same. So I think that, you know, a strong focus on results, strong focus on education of the consumers, using ingredients that are medical grade ingredients and, you know, sort of really being careful about the kind of

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the way that they are active, the studies, the results. I think Dr. Lead Brands do influence industry trends because of these ethical, you know, considerations.

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But I still feel that, you know, that that we're too small, unless you're an Augustine is better, who's taken over by another investor to who's going to pump in money to to grow that I think Dr. Lead Brands will still be niche.

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I think drive trends. And certainly, we can integrate it with clinical treatments, our skin care treatments. So that's the advantage but I don't I don't think that they will lead the market.

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I think they will drive trends in the market.

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And it's quite interesting that, you know, if somebody produces a study you assume that that's kind of, you know, the last word on the matter. But we were speaking the other day when we about an article in the Times that said that a study had apparently shown that LED masks aren't as effective as

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you have to correct me on this is low level laser therapy. Yes, and then it turned out it was a it was a brand selling this product commission this study so you make sure what the, what the authenticity, you know, obviously these studies aren't impartial.

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So how do you as a kind of navigate that because I think first of all, that's where I would have said responsible journalism should have come in. Okay, I think that the journalist should have checked the facts.

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The, that study was the very poor study it was not even a published study it was just somebody talking and comparing apples to pairs.

351
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So comparing and saying making a statement like a single LED compared to a laser light where a single LED is never going to be as effective as a laser light, you know, but I think there were a lot of flaws in that study and I think that the reporting of that study was flawed.

352
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:26,120
But I mean, you know, you're always going to have this sensationalism right that says that it's a clickbait it's the same thing that that I guess sells newspapers and gets people reading about it.

353
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:42,120
And, but, you know, we, okay, so low level, low level light therapy is one acronym and low level laser therapy is one acronym, and then LLLT and LED is light emitting diodes.

354
00:43:42,120 --> 00:44:08,120
And there is good scientific evidence that supports that supports the claims of LED working, both red and blue light of proper created LEDs penetrate up to the upper dermis and near infrared penetrates deeper into the dermis up to the hyper dermis or the subcutaneous tissue.

355
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:17,120
But there are lots of cheap LED masks out there. Okay, and that and and those are really not effective you just buying something colored lights.

356
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:30,120
You know, you really need to make sure that you are, you know, researching the brand. Very often, like as I said, my LED is got every approval is every cleared in USA.

357
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:51,120
So it's a proper LED. So you need to really understand the brand and the studies that the brand is publishing but not just created by the brand but also independent studies that that other researchers and scientists are publishing and just going on YouTube and talking about some study they did, which is not published.

358
00:44:51,120 --> 00:45:04,120
So many people do and I think that's why companies, they're banking on that they kind of exploit people's naivety by saying, well, here's a study. And everyone's okay, well, it's a study that must, you know, be credible if there's a study.

359
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:12,120
And, you know, they can't go into detail about that, you know, the nuances of that study and whether it was carried out correctly like yourself.

360
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:25,120
Exactly. And I think that's the issue. The issue is that no, but not a lot of people know how to read the studies. And so sometimes you can really manipulate a study to come out with what you want, you know, or just report what you want.

361
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:31,120
So I think, I think that does exist, even in academia.

362
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:50,120
And it's sad, it's hard for the consumer. But I think, you know, I was always told if it's too good to be true, if, you know, there's a free lunch, okay, there's nothing like a free lunch if you're going to, you know, buy something for 20 or 40 quid.

363
00:45:50,120 --> 00:46:06,120
And this is going to magically erase your eye bags and everything, then really it's question, you know, you put a question mark to it and think, right, you know, am I just putting hyped up Vaseline on my skin?

364
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:15,120
Definitely. But you'd be surprised how, you know, what people would try and sell us. I remember being a beauty journalist a few years ago and this guy had this cream.

365
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:28,120
He was like, you put it on and it will instantly have this effect. And I was like, well, you can't instant a cream can't instantly have any effect beyond like a cosmetic effect. It can't kind of change your skin suddenly in that moment.

366
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:33,120
Doesn't change it immediately, but you will have an instant hydration. Yes, exactly.

367
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:50,120
It will make your skin glow. And so you see that instant kind of result or a little instant tightening of filling, but it doesn't last because it's then the actives have to work for you to see that change and change in skin takes time and it depends on what you're trying to change.

368
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:58,120
Nothing is going to change in, you know, you need a minimum three to four weeks of application oftentimes you need three months of application.

369
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:09,120
For sure. But people don't have the patience, I think that's the problem. And then you get before and afters like don't get me started on those because it's always like a different angle, different lighting.

370
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:15,120
The person's looking happy in the after photo and like moody in the before photo. So it's like completely.

371
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:16,120
Yeah.

372
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:23,120
No, it's it's a very interesting one. Do you think skincare gadgets are having a moment and what drove you to create one?

373
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:40,120
Oh my God skincare gadgets have been having a moment I think for at least the last few years. And I think that, you know, we saw a shift with the pandemic where people really explored home care and we saw the sales of skincare go through the roof because people were just buying online to look after themselves.

374
00:47:40,120 --> 00:48:03,120
I think devices are definitely having, you know, a fantastic period. And I think that more and more devices are pushing the limits of what can be achieved. And in terms of prejuvenation preventative treatments, they're very, very cost effective.

375
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:12,120
They're home care devices and I think that they're more attainable. You know, they're convenient, and they're accessible to a larger population.

376
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:28,120
I think that's what drove me to it. The advances in technology and the fact that I'm going to be able to educate and reach out to a larger group and make it more attainable for them because not everybody can afford fillers.

377
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:48,120
Not everybody wants to have fillers. Okay, and not everybody can afford surgery. And, you know, but for me, I always think of this kind of stuff we brush our teeth twice a day and we understand it's preventative it doesn't mean, you know, that you're not going to get a cavity, or you're

378
00:48:48,120 --> 00:49:03,120
not going to go to need to see the dentist, but you're looking after your and you're brushing your teeth and you so you're using toothpaste. So I always think that these kind of preventative skincare has, you know, improved leaps and bounds we have such hard scientific evidence

379
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:24,120
that we have these ways to show how these actives work that they work we can see magical changes on the skin. And with the devices. We're just seeing incredible changes, apart from it being convenient and accessible the technology has advanced and become so sophisticated that I think, driven by this desire

380
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:43,120
to see invasive options and home care, and, and, you know, patients consumers taking it into their want some ownership of this. And I think that's what we're seeing but equally we're seeing so many cheap devices, you know, making all sorts of claims.

381
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:55,120
And not great for the environment either. Yeah, that don't necessarily work. But the ones that work, work, and they're really worthwhile investing in.

382
00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:08,120
And as a wildcard question, how do you, as a brand founder, like to position yourself because I know you were talking earlier about how you're not a tick tock influencer you're not going to see videos of you dancing with the ice

383
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:19,120
cream. And, but there is that kind of pressure I think for founders, specifically female founders that you have to be that kind of brand ambassador as well.

384
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:35,120
How do you kind of position yourself and obviously you're not going to some sort of influencer led brands for example they can be like well I'm an open book, like this is me I'm completely, you know the same, you know, authentic this is my life whereas obviously, as a doctor led brand

385
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:51,120
you have to kind of position yourself slightly differently so how what's your kind of, you know, I have a quirky funny side of me that I let out the box every now and then you know my social media where you just suddenly, you know you go oh what happened to her she

386
00:50:51,120 --> 00:51:08,120
you know I just show a quirky side that I have but I think that I'm very clear I, you know I'm a professional, and you're going to trust me because I'm a professional, and I am going to share information in a manner that perhaps you can understand, and that you can

387
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:34,120
refer back to, and, and, and so for me it is about responsible education, consumer education, and hopefully make it a little more fun, I think I can be very serious so I'm trying to work on that because, you know, I think I do need to be able to communicate with a consumer, which is very different from my, the customer coming to me as a

388
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:51,120
patient, is very different from the customer coming to me as a skincare brand. And I think I'm still learning that because for me I'm always in doctor mode when I'm facing the world, you know, and it's hard because it's always doctor mode, doctor mode, professional mode so I think I'm

389
00:51:51,120 --> 00:52:06,120
I'm, I'm, I'm learning that I have to change. I'm still doctor mode but it's a little more fun education doctor mode. You know, still keeping it friendly and professional, as opposed to when I'm talking to patients on Instagram, kind of mode.

390
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:24,120
But I think I'm learning but I think, you know, my bottom line is listen I'm responsible I'm a responsible doctor and a professional and people at the end of the day are going to, you know, that I am accountable for what I'm saying so I'm not not going to say anything, just a self product.

391
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:49,120
You know, definitely not. You've built an amazing body of work and created this incredible brand I don't know how you have the time to do all of this to be honest. And what would you like your legacy, your lasting legacy to be, what do you say, you know, legacy is a very big word and often like my, I feel it's a very pompous word to use I just feel that for me.

392
00:52:49,120 --> 00:53:13,120
If I could be remembered particularly by, by women, because I would like to be an inspiration for women, young women mature women, showing that success is possible, despite the challenges and even at a later age, and I think if they could see my story as a story of resilience, overcoming

393
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:26,120
obstacles, and being able to turn challenges, you know, into opportunities but still remain graceful and kind.

394
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:51,120
And through that process, rather than being hard and embittered, then I think that would be a way I would like to be remembered as somebody who inspired women to be, you know, to by telling my story of resilience and allowing them to overcome challenges and being an inspiration for them.

395
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,120
I think that's all I would want to leave behind.

396
00:53:53,120 --> 00:54:11,120
That's so lovely and you're an absolute delight to talk to you know, it was, it was lovely to meet you in person as well the other day so yes thank you so much for for coming on the podcast and yeah but you can't wait to see like where you take the brand in the next few years and yeah.

397
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:19,120
Thank you so much. I need an investor big time investor marketing expert to take that to the next level.

398
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:35,120
Brilliant. Thank you so much again.

399
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:51,120
I hope you enjoyed that episode. All links will be in the show notes and feel free to visit smartbeautycreative.com or visit us over on Instagram to find out more about what we do. And if you enjoyed listening, please don't forget to rate and review smart beauty on iTunes as it helps people find us.

400
00:54:51,120 --> 00:55:07,120
See you next time.