1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:18,760 Hello and welcome to the Smart Beauty podcast. I'm your host, Vyla Levy, beauty journalist 2 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,960 and founder of Copilot branding agency, Smart Beauty Creative. We're here to create your 3 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:34,480 brand voice and craft the story behind it. Today I'm talking to the amazing Sarah McCartney. 4 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:41,560 She has graced this podcast before so you can go back and listen to the episode I did 5 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:50,200 with her talking about her range for 160 Tuesdays. She is a perfumer so that was a really interesting 6 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:56,240 chat and she has so many amazing insights and opinions about the fragrance industry 7 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,080 and it's a fountain of knowledge so I do suggest checking out that episode if you haven't already 8 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:06,800 we'll include a link in the show notes. But today she has kindly joined us to talk about 9 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:13,120 Lush so before she started her own brand earlier on in her career she was the editor of the 10 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:19,960 Lush Times which I fondly remember as a student getting very excited when it dropped through 11 00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:26,960 my letterbox. This was pre-social media days and today she is talking about a new collection 12 00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:33,480 that Lush have launched called the Lush version. Slightly provocative, well not even slightly, 13 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:40,120 rather provocative and controversial, it focuses on the body shop's best sellers that Mark 14 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:45,160 Constantine, I have to pronounce that correctly as I was saying Constantine which Sarah pulled 15 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,520 me up about. Apparently he gets very angry as well if you mispronounce his name. I have 16 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:54,280 to bear that in mind if I ever meet him. Anyway Mark Constantine created this range because 17 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:59,920 he used to work with Anita Roddick and her husband at the body shop and he formulated 18 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:06,720 all of these products so you could argue that he has a prior claim but given that he is 19 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:14,320 now with Lush his own brand and the body shop are still going they were recently acquired 20 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:19,520 by the Aurea Group and have a new CEO so it's very exciting times for them. So it's a very 21 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,200 interesting move from Lush some would say quite a controversial one. So Sarah is here 22 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:30,240 to provide her insights and opinions having been a member of the Lush team and having 23 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:35,320 worked with Mark Constantine herself. She was one of the only previous Lush team members 24 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:41,000 to have not signed an NDA so she can speak a bit more freely than some others who have 25 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,000 worked there. I was very excited to hear what she had to say and really enjoyed this chat 26 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,880 and I hope you will too. So thank you so much Sarah for joining me once again on the podcast 27 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:57,320 and really looking forward to chatting with you as I'm sure you've got a lot to say on 28 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:05,680 this topic. So Lush have recently launched a new range called the Lush version which 29 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:14,880 is, they say in no uncertain terms, it's a fresh take on the body shop's treasured favourites 30 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:21,120 and basically for those who aren't aware Mark Constantine created a lot of these products 31 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:26,480 while he was working with the body shop or co-created them should we say. So he does have 32 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,840 a claim that he's not, you know they were the products that he created and you know 33 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,560 one could argue that he should be kind of celebrating his legacy but the body shop is 34 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:43,640 still going and that is why people have raised a few eyebrows because arguably you know it's 35 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,480 still a rival brand which is still in business and when you look on the website what they've 36 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:54,200 sort of said about it is kind of taken swipes in no uncertain terms talking about how customers 37 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,880 felt betrayed when the body shop was sold to L'Oreal and they say the body shop never 38 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,240 recovered from its former glory and I was like well give it a try it's still going it 39 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:08,880 could still recover and a change of ownership ultimately couldn't revive the heart and soul 40 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:17,320 and quality of a brand once loved by so many which yeah not exactly awash with ambiguity 41 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,400 and I wanted to chat to you because obviously you worked at Lush you were the editor of 42 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:27,760 the Lush Times and worked closely with Mark and the founding team so I'd really love to 43 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,840 get your thoughts because obviously it's quite a you know we all love a bit of industry theatre 44 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:37,360 but do you think this is more of this is an interesting move and that Mark has a right 45 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,280 to celebrate the products that he arguably created or do you think it's not really in 46 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:46,880 keeping with the Lush ethos like what are your what are your initial thoughts? 47 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:54,680 Knowing them as I do I would say that this is entirely 100% consistent with the way the 48 00:04:54,680 --> 00:05:01,000 Constantine family always felt about the body shop and the end of their relationship with 49 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,840 them and even from the beginning of their relationship with them right through to the 50 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:16,480 point at which Nita Roddick sold to L'Oreal and onwards after that so I was involved in 51 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:25,000 all of that time so and I can tell you a number of things that came up which would indicate 52 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,640 I mean this just did not surprise me the slightest little bit. 53 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:30,640 Oh really? 54 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:40,840 Yeah it's as you only have to mention Nita Roddick it's Constantine by the way and 55 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:44,240 that was one of the things that kept coming up when people called him Constantine he also 56 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,760 used to slightly get annoyed so just so you know it's Constantine. 57 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,400 Good to know in case I ever meet him. 58 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:51,400 Thanks for the heads up. 59 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:52,400 Yeah just in case. 60 00:05:52,400 --> 00:06:04,360 Yes so yes I'm not surprised there's a lot of stored bottled up rage about what happened 61 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:10,880 between the Lush founders who were supplying products for the body shop. 62 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:11,880 Can imagine. 63 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:17,680 Until a certain point at which it all fell apart which I can also tell you about because 64 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:23,800 I'm one of the few people who got out and didn't sign in NDA but this all comes from 65 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:37,280 a genuine powerful knowledge belief and it's that they know that they will write about 66 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:38,440 this. 67 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:45,120 They are absolutely certain that they're doing the right thing otherwise they wouldn't do 68 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:46,120 it. 69 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:51,360 They know they're probably they will have discussed is it a good idea and a lot of people around 70 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:56,480 would say oh I don't think so and they would have go well you know what I'm doing it anyway 71 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:02,120 because what they've done for this brand isn't outrage and it's not fair and we're doing 72 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:03,120 it. 73 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:12,000 And also I think you mentioned that the ingredients they're using a much higher quality whereas 74 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,880 the body shop kind of diluted them to get the cheapest version that they could and Lush 75 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,800 is kind of bringing that quality element back. 76 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:26,600 Yeah what's actually happened I'm pretty sure although obviously I wasn't in the room but 77 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:32,360 looking at the picture of the product the Lush version it's evident that there are actually 78 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,000 bananas in it again. 79 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,960 I'm suddenly like dawn while we're talking I was thinking to myself oh of course this 80 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:45,640 is the original formulas which they fell out of use because the original formulas that 81 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:52,760 Lush made were made with fresh fruits and all the naturals that they could squeeze into 82 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,120 them to try and get the best effect. 83 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,720 Because of course over the years body shop the original kept that formula but over the 84 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:11,360 years these things have been tweaked looked at changed altered such that body shop the 85 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:16,520 name no the brand name remains the same but actually what they stood for when the Lush 86 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:21,080 guys were making the products that's completely different. 87 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:29,120 So the fact that these formulas were in effect lost the real genuine products had been lost 88 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:37,600 so I think what's happened is that taking the originals the very originals remaking 89 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:44,960 those it's not even the same product at all in fact it's miles away product wise and I 90 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:51,080 think that the constant times are going to be going right this is what the body shop 91 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:56,680 ought to be whoever you are who's bought it you need reminding of what the body shop 92 00:08:56,680 --> 00:09:02,400 actually stood for and the quality that the products had and so we're just going to show 93 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,400 you how it's done. 94 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,400 Yes, that's the thing. 95 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:17,640 And once this happened once before and it was coming up to 2020 when everybody suddenly 96 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:24,440 had to declare the product ingredients on the label and that hadn't happened before 97 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:29,360 and Lush was saying coming up to that point they were going to be crossing the line into 98 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:37,640 the new millennium and the products the ingredients list the QI lists Lush were already listing 99 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,120 all the fruit and veg and essential oils they're going to put in there and they said just wait 100 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,080 till people start reading what's actually in the body shop because the obsession is not 101 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,480 new then wait they start reading the ingredients list then have a look at them and then they'll 102 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:56,400 think aha that's the difference the Lush products are way superior but actually nobody 103 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,480 really looks and nobody really notices and that was a big disappointment to them you 104 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:09,840 know 2001 is like actually nobody reads ingredients lists but they were helping that there'd be 105 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:15,760 a you know clear blue sky is it clear blue water whatever a big gap that people would 106 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:21,040 notice the big gap between what Lush was actually doing with the products and what the body 107 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:29,560 shop had done with the products and I I begin to suspect that what's actually in it the 108 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:34,240 quality of it is the most important thing to them and it's just to realise of course 109 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:40,080 they put the bananas back in they've actually gone back to the genuine original really expensive 110 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:50,240 really difficult to make have to be made by hand genuine natural materials and I think 111 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:55,520 that's way more important than than the IP and everyone's obsessing about the IP how 112 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:06,760 dare they know how dare they in effect encroach upon the body shops IP but it's more about 113 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:12,560 the quality of the products that's that's what that's what finally I think this is all 114 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:16,400 about it is a kind of dodgy legal territory I mean they might feel like they they have 115 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:21,000 that moral high ground and which many people will agree but they're not even being they're 116 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,120 not even you know being subtle about it they're like yeah this is the body shop we you know 117 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,520 we did these products and we're gonna make them we're gonna make our versions of what 118 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:35,480 our rival brand the products that made our rival brand's name and arguably I was gonna 119 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,360 say that they are kind of iconic not just because they're great products but because 120 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:45,040 of the brand that Anita Roddick built that's what kind of made them the icons they are 121 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,960 today so I think for them to sort of claim that they are kind of now under the lush umbrella 122 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:57,920 is a little bit unfair in that respect would you agree well I would imagine that when they 123 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:04,360 decided to do this it looked like the body shop was ended and finished forever and so 124 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:12,280 they thought right we'll take it forwards they're gone and then by the time the products 125 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:20,280 are ready to come out the body shop hadn't gone it's you know it's lingering we'll see 126 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:26,080 what happens and so they thought well we'll do it anyway I'll give you a little bit background 127 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:35,520 which was I mean there's much but when when Anita Roddick sold to L'Oreal I mean Mark 128 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:44,040 was incensed there was steam coming out of his ears for months and he decided that because 129 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:49,840 they'd developed Ice Blue Shampoo because when they first started working together 130 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:56,320 body shop didn't have a factory they didn't make any products they bought in products 131 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,480 and they bought in products which were made by the team which then went on to form Cosmetics 132 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:10,600 the Go and then went on to form Lush when Princess Diana came to visit they bought themselves 133 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,240 in new lab but they didn't have anything in it so they had to bring in the whole Lush 134 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,440 team with a load of equipment to make some stuff in front of her to make it look like 135 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:26,000 they were actually manufacturing so it's not as simple as somebody said oh Mark was working 136 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:32,440 for body shop it wasn't they presented products they developed the top selling product that 137 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:42,120 the body shop did and then the body shop marketed them as their own Mark maintains that Anita 138 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:50,120 Roddick wasn't the slightest bit interested in animal testing for example until they brought 139 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,640 that principle with them and told them you should you should do this it's really important 140 00:13:53,640 --> 00:14:00,400 and she went she went yeah okay because before that Mark had worked with Beauty was called 141 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:06,280 Beauty Without Cruelty BWC and it was the kind of 1970s cruelty free brand Mark had 142 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:12,040 worked with them and Anita Roddick hadn't heard of it the non-animal testing thing was you 143 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,040 know according to the Constantine they introduced her to that idea she thought well that sounds 144 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:25,280 good and took it on so there's a lot of what Lush people did that informed where the body 145 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:31,120 shop stood and what everybody knew about it so anyway they had made Ice Blue Shampoo 146 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:36,280 on the day the sale was announced Mark said he was going to make a product called Ice 147 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:44,160 Blue Cube and that would be indicative of his feeling that Anita Roddick could actually 148 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,760 go and sell the brand to the people who were doing more animal testing than the rest of 149 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:55,960 Europe's cosmetics companies put together at that time he was like I say he was he was 150 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:04,080 incandescent he was uncarmable he wanted to turn the whole front page of the Lush Times 151 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:09,800 Black which actually he did because I was away for one meeting and I came back he printed 152 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,560 the whole Lush Times with a black front page and of course nobody in the shop picked it 153 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:21,600 up and the sales went down but that was kind of that was less important to him than than 154 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:27,160 making a statement about it because that was something he genuinely believed in and 155 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,280 going to say was it more that he was angry on principle or was it more that she'd thrown 156 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:37,960 his brand under the bus and his name by doing that oh no that's that was they'd separated 157 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:44,960 a long time before that I could tell you about that if you like but it was so there was already 158 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:55,200 bad blood you're saying oh yeah they okay history so the body shop was set up when Anita Roddick 159 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:01,840 had been to San Francisco and had seen a shop called the body shop which had wooden floors 160 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,520 green packaging they refilled the bottles and it was kind of very hippie and she thought 161 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:13,600 her big business idea was oh I know I'll do that in England so that's why they couldn't 162 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:22,000 open the body shop couldn't have a US company they were in Canada but they couldn't work 163 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,360 in the US for a long time because the brand body shop was owned by the two women who established 164 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:36,160 the actual original body shop so that became quite a difficult time for them they wanted 165 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:42,800 to do something in the US so Gordon Roddick Anita's husband asked Mark Constantine because 166 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,720 they were working together at the time and they're the Constantine's their company with 167 00:16:47,720 --> 00:17:00,880 this myth this myth no the Constantine's with Liz Weir at the time who went on to form cosmetics 168 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:07,720 to go and then lush they were working very closely together making lots of products for 169 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:13,280 the body shop. They're formulators at the time. Yeah but also manufacturers yeah but 170 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:21,480 yes they had a company called Constantine and Weir Mark Constantine and Liz Weir his 171 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,120 business partner they were they were manufacturing they were also formulating but they started 172 00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:34,640 off by doing manufacturing. So their formulas were like top bestsellers the body butters 173 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:42,560 the ice blue shampoo they were consistently number like one two three in the body shop's 174 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:48,400 bestselling list so this made it a bit of an odd relationship because they the lush team 175 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:54,800 as they are now they owned the formulas. Body shop did not own formulas their top selling 176 00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:01,360 products they did not have the intellectual property for. So there they were unable to 177 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:08,640 go into the US and Gordon Roddick said to Mark do you want to go into partnership we 178 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:15,600 can open a shop in Seattle and they called us shop bodkins they went over they put a 179 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:22,800 lot of products in they opened it up and at the launch party I quote Mark he said to Gordon 180 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:29,560 so is there a need to not coming and Gordon Roddick said to Mark oh I haven't told her 181 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:37,080 about this yet. Well anyway the thing did not see well Gordon Roddick set up a business 182 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:42,760 of Mark Constantine he haven't told his wife. Why haven't you not told his wife? Well he 183 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:49,520 didn't in case you didn't like the idea so he did it anyway. Oh okay. So this is where 184 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:56,600 the difficulty started is that then Gordon got back on said oh by the way Mark Constantine 185 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,800 made me set up a business in Seattle and it's lost I've lost all of this much money and 186 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:08,760 so she was absolutely fuming and in order for them to stay married and I mean obviously 187 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:16,600 I speculate but I get I got this this is a story that Mark told that Gordon had to blame 188 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:25,360 him otherwise he would his situation would have been not possible to continue so. Domestic 189 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:32,920 situation you mean? Domestic situation yeah and so for that reason they then didn't speak 190 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:41,760 so then the body shot it was quite messy but anyway so bodkins was that shop which started 191 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:48,400 and failed in a very short period of time I think and they both of them had put in 200,000 192 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:55,400 pounds each Mark said and they I have a memory for facts okay so I mean I left 14 years ago 193 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:02,080 but some of these things, unless you're so full of drama and gossip all the time but 194 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:08,920 all of these things seem so important that they stuck in my memory but that was the kind 195 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:19,040 of parting so at that point the body shop offered to buy out Constantine and Weir to 196 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:27,200 buy the formulas from them and separate so they sold those original formulas so that 197 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:33,800 was the point at which these formulas that the Lush team as they are now had developed 198 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:40,120 those then changed hands and went to the body shop now they're not the same formulas because 199 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:45,920 you can't use exactly the same things no because of the little wrinkle yeah things will have 200 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:54,120 changed but I'm sure they'd be very similar and so then they lost those the rights to 201 00:20:54,120 --> 00:21:00,760 all of those formulas they went with body shop now on the tiny tiny level I've had that 202 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,560 happen to me somebody bought a formula from me and then discovered that they couldn't 203 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:11,480 afford to to reproduce it to big quantities and just reformulated makes somebody something 204 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,600 completely different and people come to me and say oh but I really used to like that 205 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:21,640 one I can't make it can't make it it's not mine I sold it and it really drives me not 206 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:28,800 so that's on a tiny tiny tiny scale so I imagine when a whole load of your formulas get bought 207 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:35,600 and is then a like unable to be produced. 208 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:44,040 International property doesn't take as big a role as emotional input when you've been 209 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,120 through all of these dramas with somebody and you've lost stuff and you think it should 210 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:55,000 be yours that's why I think they do it I don't think they're doing it in any kind of cynical 211 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,520 business way they don't need that. 212 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,440 That's what I thought and given like Lush's ethos that they're they you know they seem 213 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,800 very much like this hippie-dippy brand that not you know for lack of a better phrase but 214 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:14,000 that you know it doesn't seem in keeping with their kind of their spirit that it's kind 215 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:22,800 of driven by what they think is right or mostly for the planet and animals not necessarily 216 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:30,320 for individuals who have a different idea from what they want to be doing but they are 217 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:39,160 driven by what they think is going to be the greater good for the planet the animals and 218 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:49,600 the plants on it and the constant time family that's that's the constant drive but and there 219 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,480 was a document once I think I shredded it I wish I kept it but Mark wrote a document 220 00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:00,400 called why Lush is a legendary company and he spent quite a lot of time on it and it 221 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:07,000 describes how he believed that every single cosmetics company pretty much it set up after 222 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:14,360 he started had copied them in some way and so that Lush is singularly responsible for 223 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:20,600 every brand following that to have copied them now there are a lot they know the solid 224 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,280 shampoo bar without doubt that's that's the thing now it's all over the place but they 225 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:29,760 invented it yeah the bath bomb they invented it and so there are lots of companies who 226 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:38,480 don't even know that they are inspired by or copied Lush and they they were so inventive 227 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,800 but there are some other things which is perfectly possible as I know and others know when you 228 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,840 start making things somebody else makes pretty much exactly the same thing as you just develop 229 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,360 it in your lab you they don't know you you don't know them and they come out at the same 230 00:23:53,360 --> 00:24:03,600 time and you might both have got your inspiration from the same place but I think that I mean 231 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,600 something something's happened in Lush meetings sometimes whether they like we've developed 232 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,600 this brand new product and we're going to call it this and there's one particular one 233 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:18,240 where Mary had a process had to kind of put her hand on say um that's an Estee Lauder 234 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:24,600 trademark that's their biggest new skincare but have you not have you not do you not how 235 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:30,880 do you not know and they just didn't go at the shots so they would they would get inspiration 236 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:38,200 from lots of other places but not from anybody else's product ever so sometimes they had an 237 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:45,040 inspiration for a product but and it already existed but um yeah that that that used to 238 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:50,840 occur in meetings sometimes we'd have to talk them down because Mark and Elizabeth we are 239 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,560 they were real trailblazers when you think about it in that sense that they didn't vent 240 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,840 these these products that now are kind of ubiquitous on the shelves and they were the 241 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,800 pioneers behind it but then I'd argue that why not just celebrate that legacy as opposed 242 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,040 to directly ripping off the body shot it just feels like it's beneath them given beneath 243 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,040 Lush given you know the amazing brand that they built they could just be celebrating 244 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:23,240 the the legacy of their founder in a more yeah I guess classy way at the moment yeah yeah 245 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:31,880 they used yeah there were a lot of things that um could have happened that would have 246 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:40,960 indicated the very much more emotional side um I forget about the IP this is what's important 247 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,080 a lot of things didn't happen that could have happened when we used to have the big creative 248 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:51,160 team meetings and if it was like there'd be 40 people in the room you know and if it was 249 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:58,960 39 to 1 and Mo actually turned around to Mark and said really no you can't do this he might 250 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:05,080 not do it and it was only like Mark Mark's wife yeah Mo Constantine the inventor of 251 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,280 the bath bomb yeah he I mean he truly believes that Mo is the most creative person on the 252 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:18,200 planet and also the best writer the only reason they employed me was because Mo was busy so 253 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:26,200 I mean there is this you kind of have to understand if you want to work with the Lush team that 254 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:33,040 they do honestly think that they are powerhouse creatives like no one else and they have the 255 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,760 proof you know but they don't really need other people it's just found a way they have 256 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,560 to employ other people because they're busy I've worked at a work at companies like it's 257 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:48,120 founder syndrome where the kind of the founding team are placed kind of on a higher on a higher 258 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:53,920 plane of worthiness to the rest of us which is lucky to kind of be within their be within 259 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,440 their aura shall we say would you say that and if you understand that then you can kind 260 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:04,360 of toggle on I know people who were there before me who are still there and you know 261 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:10,840 fit fit nicely in with that I was a bit too much of a I think that's not right but if 262 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,720 you were there was the phrase out of the room out of the deal if I missed one meeting then 263 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,720 I come back and find something I've done have been completely rewritten in a way I've 264 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:29,640 been told I published that oh too late but I mean I got lots of marks once when I come 265 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:36,000 up with this headline about Easter and say there was an Easter bunny product that they'd 266 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:45,000 made and I wrote on it the headline was take the bunny and run this happened to coincide 267 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:53,240 with Anita Roddick selling to L'Oreal now this was separate and but Mark thought it was the 268 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:58,840 most brilliant thing I'd ever done because he thought I was talking about the the buah 269 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:05,960 non animal testing bunny and Anita Roddick taking the money it was coincidence I was 270 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:12,040 happy to sit back quietly and not and say oh yeah great but I I didn't I didn't write 271 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,480 it because Anita Roddick had sold to L'Oreal I wrote it because it was Easter and there 272 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:23,000 was a bunny bath ballistic so um happy coincidence but but you think it's the best intentions 273 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,640 it wasn't a case of just taking the bunny and running as you would say exactly but I've 274 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:33,360 heard this directly from Mark Constantine who had been told by Gordon Roddick after Anita 275 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:43,280 died they spoke again and he told Mark that he thought she basically died of a broken heart 276 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:51,320 that she got to L'Oreal for her first meeting and they said I'm sorry you're not invited 277 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:59,280 now this is this is two stages of PSA of course so Gordon got it from Anita who turned up for 278 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:07,200 the meeting she came home absolutely devastated because she thought she was being invited in 279 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,600 to give them all of her expertise and changed the way L'Oreal did everything and they pretty 280 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:17,360 much wanted only ownership of the L'Oreal of the body shop brand you know and obviously 281 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,560 L'Oreal don't own it any longer but then it's gone on the message has sort of been 282 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:28,880 watered down yeah every time it gets bore so it wasn't a kind of a lack of integrity on 283 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:35,000 Anita Roddick's part she was just maybe a bit naive and perhaps misled um by thinking that 284 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:40,120 L'Oreal were going to do something good and actually it was a lot more she was she was 285 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:46,120 flattered into it she was convinced that she was going to be the great animal savior you 286 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:57,320 know that she uh she had a huge ego um without shadow of doubt I've been in other other situations 287 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:05,880 long before I I joined Blush I worked with people who had encountered her and she she 288 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:17,360 sideline people at events it was she had this I don't know well she was particularly egocentric 289 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,480 I think I think it's an argument that you can't yeah that's kind of unavoidable if you're 290 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,280 going to be a founder or a key or key figure that's an element of narcissism isn't there 291 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:31,800 within yeah a founder that's going to drive anything that massive I think yeah does have 292 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:38,520 the narcissism um but she I don't think they found it difficult to convince her that they 293 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:44,680 would take her on and she could change everything for them but they that's not what they wanted 294 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:53,240 according to Jordan according to Mark that's really sad and yeah yeah it's a sad ending 295 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:59,480 given everything that she and Mark had built um with regards to that but going back to 296 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,400 what you were saying about how lush feels so strongly about their environmental principles 297 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,440 I think what another thing that people are shocked about is that they're using the same 298 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,560 plastic tubs for like the bodybutters as the body shop and you think well why are they not 299 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,040 you know using more sustainable packaging if that's the case because they are just recycled 300 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:23,560 yeah I mean the thing is that it's very easy to go oh plastic the plastic argument is very 301 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:32,200 very very complicated um I mean there's use on plastic packaging on food for example means that 302 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:38,040 food will last five ten times longer you can fill the packaging if it's sealed you can fill it with 303 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:43,960 nitrogen instead of oxygen so that there's far far less food waste and yeah you've got kneejerk 304 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:50,200 reactions about oh we've got to get rid of all the plastic because it's plastic um and it's 305 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:56,840 leading to massive worldwide worldwide food waste so saying oh but look it's plastic it's 306 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:04,440 it's a very very easy um low hanging fruit points to judge people on but lush have used 307 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,560 recycled plastic for their packaging ever since it was available and that was when I was there so 308 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:17,160 that was before 2010 yeah given that that the packaging that they normally use is very different 309 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,040 you kind of think why wouldn't they just use the same packaging that they've or similar packaging to 310 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,480 what they've always been using because clearly they think that that's a more sustainable choice 311 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:33,640 um don't know can only speak to the past can't really speak to the present um but I I think they 312 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,720 will definitely have looked for the most sustainable option you know there are some 313 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:43,960 what looks like plastic I've got here that I'm testing for a perfume for somebody it looks like 314 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:49,560 plastic it isn't it's biodegradable to all intents and purposes you just think oh it's a plastic bottle 315 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,720 it's not um so and we're doing stability tests on that at the moment it's manufactured in Spain 316 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:02,520 it's not plastic but it looks and feels like plastic so maybe if we ask it'll turn out to be that 317 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,000 yeah because there are so many better alternatives I mean not to just derail the conversation but 318 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,920 things like aluminium for example and um yeah obviously like the waterless solutions as well 319 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,720 or another is another avenue but yeah I just thought that was interesting really that they would use 320 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,600 the original kind of they would copy the packaging as well as use the the formulations 321 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,960 that's a point the ip point yeah I mean I genuinely don't know what it's made I haven't seen the 322 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:33,000 products I've only not in real life have any seen pictures of them so I don't know what the actual 323 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,440 source is yeah I would I would doubt very much that lush would just go out and buy plastic I mean 324 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:43,400 I know they wouldn't yeah they just wouldn't they just they just can't it's not it's not in their 325 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:52,600 nature so it's going to be but yeah I I can only think and this I don't know but um I think that 326 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,480 this must have sprung to them quickly and they are a bit that they're often they make quick off the 327 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:04,120 mark it's like this has happened this is important we need to do it now boom um they're always rushing 328 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:09,080 things yeah always like we have an idea it's got to be it's something wrong just you know other 329 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:14,040 brands will take 18 months from concept to get something out but she's like okay stability test 330 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:21,720 boom out the door and um I think that's I think that's likely to have been what occurred um and 331 00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:28,520 probably they they also like to be cheeky they did seriously like to push it as far as they could go 332 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:36,040 um and you know if somebody then issues them with a cease and desist they'd cease and desist 333 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,200 so I was going to say what do you think are going to be the legal repercussions of this in your 334 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:45,720 kind of professional opinion with your sort of knowledge of the industry what do you think do 335 00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:50,280 you think that they this is going to backfire on them or do you think they're going to get away 336 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:56,360 with it given the state that they're just appointed a new CEO so they want a kind of new fresh start 337 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,080 and I imagine they're not going to really stand for sort of stunts like this moving forward 338 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:08,840 yeah I think they've probably got bigger fish to fly than you see a body shot for the moment but 339 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,520 okay so cost and lush is entirely as they say vertically integrated they make everything 340 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,520 they design in-house everywhere everything's in-house or at least it was when I was there 341 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:24,200 they might have brought in external companies now but pretty much everything's in-house so 342 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:29,480 they'll make a batch of something if people didn't buy it they wouldn't make another 343 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:37,160 yeah it's there are so many other things that they can do so it's possible that they've made a 344 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:43,560 statement expecting to get the cease and desist at which point no okay don't don't make another batch 345 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:51,080 that's possible it would not be unlike their thinking I would say to be like I say they just 346 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:58,520 when they see an important what they think is like you say an ethical issue and in this case it's 347 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:05,480 you took our good stuff and you've shut it down and now customers can't get it and that's not fair 348 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:12,680 that for them would be an ethical issue yeah so like if customers can't get it you know you've 349 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:18,360 closed come it looked like the company was going to close okay fine it's being rescued I mean at one 350 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:26,760 point Mark considered buying the body shop and then changing its name to keep it fluffy it's a long 351 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:34,120 story but they didn't eventually do it because it would have just been too much extra stress but 352 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:39,880 you know that's how strongly they have felt about it in the past that when it was sort of rumoured 353 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:46,440 to be for sale or before the Oriole bought it Mark did go to the city and talk about getting 354 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:53,160 backing and you know funding to buy the whole blinking body shop so in order to get their formulas back 355 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,840 yeah how would that have worked given that they're now a competitor I guess would it just be kind of 356 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,400 to sort of absorb it under the lush umbrella and then like you say just get the formulas back 357 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,840 as opposed to they were going to rebrand all the shops and call them keep it fluffy 358 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,760 that's what I that was going to happen then instead they brought out a perfume called keep 359 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,120 it fluffy when they launched being ever too busy to be beautiful but scrolling back even further to 360 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:28,120 when I first met them I mean I was a cosmetics to go customer and then that failed and then they 361 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:34,840 brought out a new brand which then eventually turned into lush and I started working with them in 362 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:45,400 1996 so but I think it was 94 maybe it all went wrong um maybe no no no lush was that there was 363 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:53,800 1992 so what happened was when they got all the money from body shop for buying out their formulas 364 00:37:54,360 --> 00:38:01,480 they set up cosmetics to go and it grew and grew and grew far too quickly they couldn't keep track 365 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,400 of the orders they were making big mistakes I was getting the wrong parcel and lots of people were 366 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,600 and then they'd say oh don't worry we'll send you another one so I was thinking this cannot last it 367 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:18,280 was it was you can see it must have been chaos down there and sure enough then what happened was 368 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:24,680 there was some a pipe burst and took out the computer system and nobody knew who'd ordered 369 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,600 what and the whole thing they had to call in the administrators because they wanted to do it right 370 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:36,920 you know they wanted to pay everyone that they owed but the company's just cease trading wallet so 371 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:43,960 that had happened that really really hurt them and what's more I think there somebody who used to 372 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:52,120 work for them bought the rights to cosmetics to go and all the formulas so they lost the right 373 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:59,080 to they lost the trademark for bath bomb they lost the rights to use a whole lot of things 374 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:06,120 that they'd invented and they were really hurt I interviewed mark for a dissertation I was writing 375 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:18,440 in 1995 and he was in pain talking about losing all their rights to their own worth so that's 376 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:24,680 what already happened to them once and the absolute joy they had when they finally bought back that 377 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,400 company and bought back the rights to all their brand names and all their products again they'd 378 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,600 built up flesh in the meantime but then they reabsorbed cosmetics to go and brought back some 379 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:39,800 of those so there's history to this there's a precedent they've they've already lost the 380 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:48,680 load of formulas and bought them back and reestablished them they feel about their creative work 381 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:57,320 like extra members of their family and you know that sense of loss of their creative work is 382 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:04,520 is tangible and in fact it affects so when you talk to Mark about these things you can see that 383 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:11,880 he's you know he he he would grieve the loss of the company the formulas and all the creative work 384 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:20,760 yeah um and I'm I'm not saying that I think any other company should or would have done this but 385 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:28,360 I can see that the passion they felt about their ownership of this and if it were to be just lost 386 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,800 and gone forever then they'd want it back and I suspect that they were halfway through to this 387 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,200 when somebody said oh it's fine we've got a new CEO it's all going to be fine they're not lost after 388 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,440 war and they'd already manufactured them so they might as well put them in the shops I think that's 389 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:49,400 where it is and also take the publicity they love a good headline they love causing controversy they 390 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:58,200 yes love you know even all all kinds of marvelous things are patterned even when I was there that 391 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:05,400 you know shops trashed by people who go hunting um when they were you know started their anti-fox 392 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:15,400 hunting campaign they they they'd like to make statements you'd say they were kind of more 393 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,760 of the original mavericks as opposed to I mean obviously the body shop were maverick as well 394 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:26,440 but from what you've said it sounds like lush all at mark constantine created the blueprint for the 395 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:33,400 kind of activism driven branding in the beauty industry that we see today absolutely I mean 396 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,760 yeah there was this American Express ad that came out featuring Anita Roddick at one point and about 397 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:47,080 how she'd gone to Brazil to meet the women who grew the nuts and mark said huh further she ever 398 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:56,040 went for Brazil nuts was same's brief because you know it was I mean he did think it was sort of 399 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,760 funny but it just thought it was outrageous that she'd go oh yes I feel passionately about going 400 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:07,560 and visiting the indigenous communities but she never did and at least not until way after it was 401 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:14,840 established in the AmEx beta whereas lush actually go out there and do visit the growers and buy 402 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:22,760 directly from the growers and do really good things to make sure that communities are growing 403 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:31,320 growing sustainably and yeah I like to walk the walk whereas there was like yeah there's a bit of 404 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:39,000 greenwashing involved when the body shop was concerned yes I mean I saw a body shop truck 405 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:45,720 a long long long time ago that said on it I mean this is like the 80s probably said 406 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:53,640 that before you throw something away remember there's no such place as a way and I remember that 407 00:42:53,640 --> 00:43:00,520 and the things that they said the things that they did had a huge effect on the way the cosmetics 408 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:07,480 industry changed now I do think that a lot of that was driven by the people who are now lush 409 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,640 and I think if it's looked at it just oh it's just another cosmetics company having a go at 410 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:22,760 another cosmetics company that's not that's to misunderstand and I mean not very many people 411 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:31,400 are aware of all of this and most of the ones who are won't talk about it either because they've signed 412 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:36,120 an MBA when they left because I was never actually employed by Lutty I was technically freelance 413 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:44,600 so I never really joined and I never really left but I do lush will probably talk about it if you 414 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:51,640 get hold of Mark Constantine you probably tell you all there but it's just not simple it's not as 415 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:59,960 simple as saying oh look it's an IP issue to them I think the IP part of it's probably about 5% of 416 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:07,320 the decision-making but the passion about their formulas just disappearing forever 417 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,120 I want to reclaim that ownership and the narrative around those formulas I guess 418 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:21,160 yeah and this practically gives me PTSD you know I just like I've not really thought about 419 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:28,120 being in those meetings for about 14 years and say well providing it's not too triggering what 420 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,600 was it like working can you provide some insight into what Mark was like to work with and what 421 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:39,240 it was like working there in those kind of early days yeah yeah it's awesome it's um 422 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:47,960 um Mark loves to be surrounded by a lot of people he likes very high energy meetings and I like quiet 423 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,960 also he's always very he's always very warm so he come in we just get room just about right and he 424 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,840 fling out in the windows I'd sit there absolutely freezing also he'd like the meetings to start at 425 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:04,600 10 and I'd have been healing there in full and so I was always cold and tired at meetings and 426 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:12,120 he thought I wasn't interested and I was just cold and tired so um with lush you kind of have to be 427 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,960 you have to be right in front of Mark and tell him exactly what you're doing in order to get the brownie 428 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:26,840 points um so even I was writing you know 60 000 words every three months he somehow thought that 429 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:33,720 got done in a fortnight I think that um that I didn't realize that I was working all the hours 430 00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:38,280 that God gives him or to try and get it finished and liaising with the Canadians at midnight and 431 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:47,640 the Japanese at eight in the morning and so it the places the people who succeed there stick 432 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:54,040 very close to him and remember to tell him of all the great things they've done and I was really 433 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:59,320 quite bad at that although in the early days he would call me a lot you know Sundays I'd get a 434 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:05,240 call like right I want to ask you a pin on this this this and so it was it was like very excited 435 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:10,600 there were no boundaries I can imagine I can imagine it's one of those like startup mentality 436 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:15,080 where this is my baby and I've put everything into it therefore it should be your baby as well 437 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,200 and you should be putting everything into it and it's actually yeah yeah I would say that for me it 438 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:26,200 changed when I mean Mark stopped calling the rest of us there was a generation of like about 439 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:33,480 about my age that came in slightly younger than the founders but older than their children 440 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:40,360 and once Mark and Mo brought their children into the business they always they consulted them about 441 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:49,000 everything and some of us older ones were then mildly superfluous to requirement so seeing the 442 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:55,880 writing on the wall that I trained up some young people to do my role and then I kind of I did 443 00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:03,320 I just kind of slid out it got it marked like this kind of gladiatorial let's let's put people in 444 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:08,600 competition with each other with each other and see who does the best work but what he'd done was he 445 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:16,520 had employed people that he liked and we all tended to like each other and so it didn't work 446 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:21,960 that kind of no it's so I get a play for say like oh Mark's asked me to write the copy for the soap 447 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,600 boards can we get together yeah of course we can and we get together we write new copy of the soap 448 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,400 boards and then we get to the meeting and Mark said you're supposed to do it together you're supposed 449 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:36,920 to compete because he'd read a business book and he'd give him some new ideas and he'd say right I'll 450 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:47,400 try that one and so but we kind of collagulated like oil on top of um but yeah but collaboration 451 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:53,640 is way more productive than competition I think well that's what we all thought we didn't really 452 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:59,400 understand what was going on why he got so angry when we'd we'd actually all decided to work together 453 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:05,800 but then he put me in competition with one of his sons and I could obviously see that that wasn't 454 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:12,200 going to go well so that was the point at which I decided sort of quite kind of as quietly as I could 455 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:20,760 to train up other writers I already had an international team by then um and just I mean I needed a rest 456 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:27,400 you know I I'd done 14 years ago I really needed a break we moved house once and the last thing to 457 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:33,320 be moved out there was nothing left in the house except me the modem the computer on the floor 458 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:39,320 in one corner and I was moved out put into a car driven to the new place the modem the computer and 459 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,640 I were plugged in as everybody else brought the stuff around because I could not stop work 460 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:50,120 for a day yeah because the lush times deadline was on and yeah I've had jobs like that I can 461 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:56,200 completely sympathise yeah yeah and and if you're not there because I was in London and they were 462 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,600 in full mostly and they couldn't see me working they didn't know it was happening even though the 463 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:07,000 words appeared by magic so unfortunately I kind of they just wore me out you know it's I'm a 464 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:13,080 I'm I don't like big noisy meetings full of lots of people I think that start-up environment it can 465 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:18,120 be sorry carry on no it's just that you're absolutely right I agree with you it is that but 466 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:24,120 they just got bigger and bigger it was fine when it started off like seven ninety people or in a room 467 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:30,360 I could cope but it just got bigger and bigger and bigger and it's yeah it's a common kind of um 468 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,520 thing that happens so I feel like that start-up environment it can be so exciting and dynamic 469 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,440 and like you say it's all these people in a room all these ideas and you're all like geared up and 470 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,080 and then as a company gets bigger and bigger it just gets like you say too noisy and you're like I 471 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,640 have to take a step back I can't cope with cope with this and obviously the more people the more 472 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:56,440 politics there are yeah yeah I mean I did some good stuff I mean I did the launch of Lush in 473 00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:01,960 Paris because I spoke French so I did the press launch which was you know you could be picked out 474 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:08,840 for things that you can do and like you do that and Mark was very good at just if somebody expressed 475 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:17,480 an interest in something say okay you can do that um which I admire um I love the way so much and I 476 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:22,600 feel like you kind of helped create that or you did create that in a way because like with the 477 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,720 the Lush times it was very used to get it as a student I loved it I loved the kind of that way 478 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:34,200 of talking about beauty that beauty could be fun it wasn't this very sophisticated very um 479 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,960 you know or steer kind of world that it had been in the past it was you know it was fun and quirky 480 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:45,000 in a reverent and I feel like do you feel like you kind of helped build that tone of voice for him 481 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:52,040 or for the brand yeah I do I just I I wanted it to be like and we eventually I gave it a 482 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:58,280 a description and I ran it past them and said what do you think we think we call it this when I'm 483 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,680 explaining it to other people when I'm teaching people overseas how to do it because they'd all 484 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:08,600 try to write like blinking lawyer on it oh this gives you the glossiest shiniest hair with no stop 485 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:15,480 that it's um a friendly conversation with a customer who's asked you a question that's the way I 486 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,640 wanted everybody to write this is how you write somebody's come in said oh my hair's looking a 487 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:24,520 bit shit what shall I do you want that one because your hair's a bit like this so if your hair's like 488 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:29,160 that then you need this and it's got that in it this and it this and it and it that that'll fix 489 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:36,040 it it'll be great so it was take that and put it on paper and the staff used it as like training 490 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:41,720 manual almost they would write oh all right I can say that let's see what the lush time says and so 491 00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:47,000 it was I'm actually smiling now that you talk about this I have a complete collection of the 492 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:55,480 lush times from 1996 Christmas edition was the first one I did right through to the first one in 493 00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:03,480 2010 so I think I've got the only complete collection I was going to give it to the lush archive but 494 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:08,600 they they they were going to send a band to collect it and they never did so I've got four boxes 495 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:17,080 sitting in my front room but maybe I'll keep them um but yes it was it was it was it was great to do 496 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:21,640 it was it was great to do but it's kind of the importance of tone of voice when it comes to a 497 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,720 brand success because I think a lot of the lush you know it's all right the products are great and 498 00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:31,400 they pioneered so many different things but I think the tone of voice is like a key component of 499 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:38,120 why lush is is the iconic brand it is today yeah putting it into Italian that's quite interesting 500 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,920 as well because they we use lots and lots of adjectives and it's always like oh no you shouldn't 501 00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:47,960 be using adverbs and you shouldn't be using adjectives like put them all in I was told by a teacher once 502 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:55,160 they used to use the lush times to show their students how to use adverbs like get in um 503 00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:02,520 yeah for Stephen King says cut them all out like nah put them all in um so yeah that 504 00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,400 yes I'm not I'm not comparing myself with Stephen King you understand this it was we 505 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:12,760 were we had different reasons well he was trying to he was he was writing fiction and I was selling 506 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:19,240 bath bombs so um you know uh but I think I think adverbs have their place especially if they're 507 00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:26,280 surprising ones I don't want to get too technical now but no it was um I mean it was very it was 508 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:32,600 very gossipy that's the only thing about it Mark loved hearing bad things about people you know 509 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:39,080 naughty things about people and people would make shit up and I used to spend quite a lot of my 510 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,400 time knowing that that's not what happened I was there and it didn't happen that's not fair 511 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:49,720 with um the head of press kind of trying to give me a stare to say shut up don't argue with him he 512 00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:59,080 doesn't want to be argued with so I got a bit of a reputation for being um contrary but that was 513 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:04,840 well deserved I am yeah given the spirit of lush and the fact that they are a contrary brand I'm 514 00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,960 sure that you would that would have been very welcome to an extent I think I I had a place I 515 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:16,920 had a place um but yeah I did I really liked getting I'm still friends you know a lot of the 516 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:22,920 customers that I met on the the lush forum was one of the first like internet places you can go 517 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:30,440 and chat about stuff and because I was anti-pamela who wrote the problem page um I was on the forum 518 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:36,440 as anti-pamela so yeah I still see people around the world sometimes I met somebody last week and 519 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:43,640 I said oh yeah I was anti-pamela she went oh my god no you're anti-pamela but yeah you know it's 520 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:49,640 like oh I used to read it when I was at school I'm going yeah right thanks for that yeah it's 521 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,760 a big fond memories even though it was yeah you know it's a very complicated place and Mark's a very 522 00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:01,800 complicated um you know creative creative genius but that comes with its problems like if you're 523 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,040 dealing with that day and day but it sounds like you have really nice kind of memories yeah I mean 524 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:12,040 it's it it's taken it takes a while to explain as we as we know now it takes a while to explain the 525 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:21,560 like 40 year history of what brought it to the point where they felt that they needed to do this 526 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:28,760 because it's the right thing to do and by without a shadow of a doubt this is this is done because 527 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:37,320 Mark thinks it is the right thing um and also probably a bit naughty so it's kind of saving 528 00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:44,280 those formulas rather than just letting them die out with the other company yeah yeah yeah I think 529 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:50,840 had had body shop not looked like it was about to disappear off the plate the face of the planet 530 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:57,160 I don't think they would have done it um and I think it probably just didn't disappear in the 531 00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,560 middle of what they were planning and so in which case they thought well in that case let's make a 532 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:08,040 big fuss about it because you know it'll probably be a cease and desist I mean I've I've lived through 533 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:13,080 many cease and desists at lusher was on in the room he allowed us to be in the room he put the 534 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:20,120 phone on speaker when sir allen sugar bollocked him about putting a cartoon in the shop window 535 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:25,640 that looked an awful lot like him I would love to have been a fly on the wall in that oh god that 536 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:31,800 was funny he's like we were we were trying or trying hard not to laugh because um is it like an 537 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,480 episode of the apprentice where he's where he's bollocking them in the boardroom was it kind of 538 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:41,560 like um it was well what had happened there's been an episode of the apprentice and they'd all 539 00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:49,400 made some really terrible products so mark um invited his own team into the labs and they'd gone 540 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:55,400 down to lusher and film um and mark thought they were so uninspired he got his own people 541 00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,800 anyone who wanted to go and join a team and work in the labs could invent their own product 542 00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:06,440 and one of them made one called the sugar scrub um and my headline was sugar's never been this good 543 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:13,800 for your figures because their people I was proud of that yes thank you the people on the show had 544 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:22,200 all lost money because they mixed mixed up sandalwood and cedarwood and uh so in the window um 545 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:28,520 Hannah Diamond had she was a very talented illustrator she drew a picture of somebody sugar 546 00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:33,240 scrubbing their arse and tattooed on the arse was somebody who looks possibly a bit like 547 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:37,640 Helen sugar and so they're in an overshot window it's because sugar's never been this good for 548 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:43,560 your figures and it's people having a nice scrub with a sugar scrub uh I think actually he called 549 00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:50,040 it sir allen which might have possibly been the problem um and so you got mark going oh well it 550 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:56,920 was just a bit of fun and you were getting a screaming down the other right bad so yeah um good 551 00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:03,720 times it they've never been afraid of a bit of controversy no no that's very clear and when it 552 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,920 comes to the body shop what do you think um just quickly what do you think the future is for them 553 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:14,520 and uh Anita Roddick's kind of legacy because her legacy seems very ambiguous some people were saying 554 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:19,320 still saying she sold out whereas I think what she built was incredible with the body shop and I 555 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:24,680 really think she should um get her credit for that but where do you see the kind of the future of 556 00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:31,240 the body shop now especially in light of what lush have done you know I haven't been in one for about 557 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:42,600 25 years um and I just I don't really care I I think if she sold out she didn't mean to sell out 558 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:49,640 she thought she was climbing up the ladder of saving more animals she thought she was getting 559 00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:57,000 into a place where that she was really going to make a huge difference um end animal cruelty and 560 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:01,560 end the testing once and for all. You also made a huge ton of money in in the process obviously. 561 00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:07,960 This is true although they're the man the man she sold one third of the business to made the most I 562 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:15,400 think um way back when Gordon went on his finding himself mission um he went away for a year and 563 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:21,720 she sold the third of the business to fund some expansion and the guy who I think he owned a garage 564 00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:30,440 in Brighton or something he he I think he did best out of it um but yeah it if somebody gets 565 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:38,600 hold of it again and chooses to use it as a tool for good again that'd be great yeah I think that 566 00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:46,280 that's what that's what distressed Mark most is it was being used as a tool for profit generation 567 00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:54,760 as you know most businesses most businesses that size are and it could have been better. 568 00:59:54,760 --> 01:00:00,440 I think that's what it's all about I do I mind if body shop stays or goes I mean 569 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:09,240 I don't know it I want it I want it to I want it to stand for something I want it to change the 570 01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:14,680 world again and that's what I hope and for me it's like that nostalgia because it was the sort of 571 01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:19,640 one of the first um you know places I would shop for beauty so I have that child those childhood 572 01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:25,080 memories of like as many people do like white musk and jubbery and all of that so for me there's a 573 01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:30,440 sentimental um aspect that I would I would like to see it carry on or maybe carry on Christmas 574 01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:37,240 through lunch. Remember the little baskets you could fill up with yes oh oh my gosh memory unlocked 575 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:43,320 those were like my favorite my favorite thing. I got everybody one of those one Christmas 576 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:49,880 everybody I knew got a basket full of body shop stuff yeah we've all got we've all got memories 577 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:54,200 I think of them. I think we year old 10 12 and people stopped getting me toys I just got body 578 01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:58,680 shop baskets because I think relatives were like what do we get 12 year old so I got about like 10 579 01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:04,040 different body shop baskets that year because 12 for Barbies so let's just get one of these and 580 01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:10,760 everyone had the same idea but yeah. Those weird pearls that look great and you put them in the 581 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,920 bathroom left them for a while and they turned into a pile of sludge. Yeah those were then they're all 582 01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:22,600 left with these weird like skins. Yeah yeah that was before yeah before the EU brought in stability 583 01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:28,520 testing. Yeah for sure um well Sarah thank you so much for chatting with me I know you're very 584 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:32,600 busy so I won't take up any more of your time but thank you so much for your insights it's been 585 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:38,840 really interesting and I think gives more um of a nuanced perspective um on the situation that I think 586 01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:45,400 a lot of people will appreciate so yes thank you thank you so much and uh oh yeah looking forward 587 01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,960 to having you possibly on the podcast again at some stage because I was saying the surprise yeah 588 01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:55,240 I think I need to lie down like a patina but otherwise it's been a delight. Great stuff and 589 01:01:55,240 --> 01:02:11,160 I'll let you go and do that thanks again Sarah take care. Bye. 590 01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,520 I hope you enjoyed that episode all links will be in the show notes and feel free to visit 591 01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:22,200 smartbeautycreative.com or visit us over on Instagram to find out more about what we do 592 01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:26,920 and if you enjoyed listening please don't forget to rate and review smart beauty on iTunes as it 593 01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:52,920 helps people find us. See you next time.