1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,200 I'm joined by the CEO of PodX, his name is Stefan Rossell, he's over in Sweden. 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,440 Stefan, how are you? 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:07,600 I'm fine, thank you. 4 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:08,600 How are you? 5 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,200 Very well, very well. 6 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:16,880 Now, Stefan, you came onto Pod News' radar about April last year when we wrote about 7 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,280 the fact that there's a new podcast investment company that's launched in Sweden called the 8 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:22,640 PodX Group. 9 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:28,440 And your goal was to invest into international podcast IP rights and offer financing business 10 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:35,560 development, internationalisation and commercialisation to emerging podcast producers and creators. 11 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:36,920 So that was the background to it. 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,040 We were like, oh, that sounds very interesting. 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,720 And subsequent to that, you got very active. 14 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,560 So you started to get into buying companies in France like Nouvellequests and companies 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,080 in the UK like Gold Hawk Productions. 16 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,880 But before we get into some of those stories, take us a step back. 17 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,440 What is your background and how did you come about forming PodX? 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:07,080 Well, I worked in media for the past 20 years and I've been leading the operations for Viacom, 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:14,720 Proceedings Ations, Discovery and last before I founded PodX, Bauer Media here in the Nordic 20 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:15,720 market. 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,720 Yeah, very big group. 22 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:18,720 Yeah. 23 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:23,280 And during that time, the last five years, I was really driving the digital and the podcast 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:30,960 agenda within Bauer internationally and mission, the importance of radio companies embracing 25 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:35,200 and developing their digital future. 26 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,960 So that's sort of my background and my thinking behind PodX. 27 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:42,680 Now, who are your co-founders in the business then? 28 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:48,600 It's Patrick Svenske, who's been a TV man, you could say he's built Odiak, which is today 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:55,880 a part of the BannerJ and Nice Entertainment for the Viaplay Group and also Fredrik Said, 30 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:01,700 who comes from ACOST and is really the one of us who has the most sort of international 31 00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:03,760 podcast background. 32 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:09,600 So Patrick, he has built, if you like, something like PodX in the TV world and Fredrik has 33 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:14,160 been an important part of the international expansion of ACOST. 34 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:19,440 And I've been working with audio entertainment for most of my work life. 35 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:25,120 So given what I said right at the beginning, that your goal is to help emerging podcast 36 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:30,640 producers, creators with finance as well as IP rights, what is your business model then? 37 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:32,240 What is PodX's model? 38 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:38,920 What we like to do is to build a world leading international podcast collective, if you like, 39 00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:45,760 a collective or a group of the best, including the best podcast creators in the world. 40 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:52,840 We think that by bringing them together, they will become stronger, learn from each other, 41 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:58,440 take each other's formats international and really because the background is really that 42 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:04,220 we see that many of the podcast businesses are very small, but very talented, but together 43 00:03:04,220 --> 00:03:05,820 they will become stronger. 44 00:03:05,820 --> 00:03:10,720 So the business model is really to invest in these companies and to become a majority 45 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,220 shareholder. 46 00:03:12,220 --> 00:03:15,600 It's not because we want everyone to become the same. 47 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:22,960 Everyone will keep their brands, their podcasts, their culture, their language, their nationality. 48 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:28,800 But if we can consolidate this in one group, we think that the sense of belonging to one 49 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:34,080 group and the, what you say, the will to actually help each other will be much stronger. 50 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,600 So we become majority shareholders of the businesses that we invest in and the founders 51 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,740 of those businesses become minority shareholders of PodX. 52 00:03:42,740 --> 00:03:45,280 So that's why we believe it's truly a collective. 53 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:51,320 I mean, in a few years time, podcast creators from all over the world will together own 54 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,560 maybe half of PodX. 55 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,960 In the Web 1.0 world, I used to work for a company called CMGI based out of Boston. 56 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,560 I was their marketing director and we had a very similar model. 57 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,680 We had AltaVista, Turome, Navio. 58 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,680 I mean, we had about 60 companies eventually within the portfolio. 59 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,000 And the synergy that those companies brought to each other was what raised the value. 60 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,760 I think CMGI was raised to over a billion dollars. 61 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,040 I guess what you're saying is the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. 62 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,440 It's the PodX family together will make a stronger proposition. 63 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,880 How do you fund and finance it? 64 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,880 We're financed and funded by a company called Calbo, an investment company. 65 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:37,680 So they are the majority shareholder now of PodX and they provide the financing for the 66 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,400 investments that we do. 67 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:44,240 And we're not necessarily looking for an advertising network. 68 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,320 We are very neutral when it comes to business models. 69 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,720 I mean, we see that there is an advertising business model. 70 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,040 There is a subscription business model out there. 71 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:01,360 There are commissioners ordering and asking for content from podcast creators. 72 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,180 There are branded podcasts. 73 00:05:03,180 --> 00:05:07,880 So there are multiple business models around podcasting at the moment. 74 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,920 And we don't know and I don't think anyone knows which of those will grow the fastest 75 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:12,920 and be more successful. 76 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,920 I think that many of these models will exist in parallel. 77 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,180 And if you compare with the television and other medias. 78 00:05:20,180 --> 00:05:26,240 So it's very important for us to say that we like podcast companies that do great content 79 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,520 and that have found a business model that works for them. 80 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,600 And it's not necessarily the same business model as another company that we invest in. 81 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,680 So that's how we think around that. 82 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:42,200 So given that you've got quite a large portfolio now and quite a diverse portfolio, I mean, 83 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:48,080 you've got companies in Argentina now and recently you acquired the one in Finland. 84 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,480 How do you determine which one to go for next? 85 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,440 Do you just say, right, Italy is a market you want to be in, let's go and find a player 86 00:05:55,440 --> 00:06:00,240 or do you go and find a company first that just happens to be in another country? 87 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,680 What's the criteria for acquiring the next company? 88 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,320 Very relevant question and something that we talk about a lot. 89 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:12,520 But we have decided to limit ourselves to Europe primarily and Latin America. 90 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:18,600 And we believe for business purposes very much in big languages that could reach many 91 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:19,600 people. 92 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,840 English being the most important one, but also Spanish and French. 93 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:30,440 So we believe very much in the greater markets in Europe and Latin America with a lot of 94 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,760 people and big languages. 95 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,280 So that's sort of the frame. 96 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:39,960 But within that frame, we are looking for very creative and successful companies when 97 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:46,080 it comes to content creation, companies that won prizes, but also companies that have proven 98 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:51,960 that they can make successful podcasts over and over again and generate revenue around 99 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:53,280 those podcasts. 100 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:55,660 So content is the core. 101 00:06:55,660 --> 00:06:57,980 That's the most important part. 102 00:06:57,980 --> 00:07:01,920 Management is very important, showing that you can actually do something with your content 103 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,320 business wise. 104 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:09,440 And then we also like evergreen content so that you actually can use your content over 105 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,000 and over again. 106 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,880 History is a perfect example. 107 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:19,000 True crime documentaries where you can actually listen to something today and you can listen 108 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,640 to the same thing in five or 10 years with the same level of excitement. 109 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,520 That's the type of content that we like. 110 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:32,360 And then last but not least, we like companies that have the ambition to protect and keep 111 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:37,800 as much as possible of their content in order to be able to do business with it onwards 112 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,280 and in the future. 113 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,160 So that's the main criteria, as I would say. 114 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:47,520 Given one of your founders has got a TV background, do you see taking these podcasts and putting 115 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,200 these to TV and film? 116 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,240 Is that one of the roads to market? 117 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,100 It could be, but it's not one of the main roads. 118 00:07:55,100 --> 00:08:00,560 We say to all the companies that we meet that it's audio first, it's podcast first. 119 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,520 And if you're successful and you have something fantastic that someone wants to make television 120 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,520 or film out of, that's great, but that's a bonus. 121 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,080 It's the icing on the cake. 122 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:16,060 We are almost a bit worried about podcast companies that think too much of the possibility 123 00:08:16,060 --> 00:08:19,480 that everything will become television and film because that's not going to happen. 124 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,000 That will be, I think, the exception rather than the rule. 125 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:29,680 So when it comes to format development and how to make business out of your IP, we much 126 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:36,040 more believe in that a great podcast in Finland could be translated to French and English 127 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,320 and Spanish and be successful as a podcast in other territories. 128 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:41,320 Right. 129 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:48,120 So Podimo, based out of Denmark, has a very similar model to you, although they acquire 130 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,000 it to go into the Podimo app. 131 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,520 And then they look at translating that into multiple other different languages and countries. 132 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,440 And they've stayed out very much until recently the UK market. 133 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,920 But what is it with Sweden? 134 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,800 You've got Spotify, you've got Acast, you've got Podimo, you've got PodX. 135 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,320 I mean, what's going on in the water over there? 136 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,760 It's probably not for me to answer because it's a much bigger question. 137 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,760 But you're right that, you know, starting maybe with Spotify and even earlier, there 138 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,640 is a business culture here. 139 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:20,800 Yeah, absolutely. 140 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:26,600 There is a business culture here around technology that is it's just here. 141 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,880 And it's like I said, I'm humble enough to realize that I'm not the person to explain 142 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,240 that because it's a much bigger topic, but it's here. 143 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:40,440 And yeah, I guess you have to have certain financial resources to be successful in building 144 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,680 businesses and maybe especially global businesses with the technology. 145 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:51,000 And you know, this part of the world is lucky enough to have a high GDP and good schools 146 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,120 and all the rest of it. 147 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,720 So social welfare and what have you. 148 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,340 But it's interesting that many companies come from here. 149 00:09:58,340 --> 00:10:03,400 But back to your first question there, we do not at all see Podimo as competitors. 150 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:09,680 We rather see them as business partners because they are commissioning content from several 151 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:12,480 of our companies. 152 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:13,480 So they are really clients. 153 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,000 I mean, they are coming to our companies and asking for content. 154 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:23,680 We see them more as a platform and a distribution partner for the content that our businesses 155 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:24,680 create. 156 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:28,600 So did I miss something in the story of PODX? 157 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:33,560 Did you do a funding round because obviously Podimo raised 75 million, which has allowed 158 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:36,840 them to go and do what they're doing. 159 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:43,680 You've obviously got backers, but you know, is the backer a VC or private equity? 160 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:47,880 I mean, how much more can you invest, you know, going forward? 161 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,800 We don't know exactly how much more we can invest, but the company, Carbo, that found 162 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,780 us has great backing. 163 00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:59,720 It's not private equity, but the money comes from private equity originally. 164 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,880 And now it's a private office. 165 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,760 And if they like what we're doing, they could invest a lot more. 166 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,880 So we're not going for any external rounds trying to find money elsewhere. 167 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,480 We have the financial backing that we need. 168 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,840 So fast forward six months from now, I mean, more acquisitions in the pipeline? 169 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:17,840 Yeah, absolutely. 170 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:23,880 I think we will probably do, you know, two to four more acquisitions within that period. 171 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,840 But we're also now going into a very interesting phase. 172 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,440 And this is really where the work begins, that we want to deliver the advantages of 173 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,480 being a products company to the companies that we have invested in the last six months. 174 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:42,360 So we're now working hard with the business development, content creation, exchanging 175 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:48,880 ideas, exchanging formats, working with IP and the legal side of things in order to not 176 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,680 give everything away to the commissioners. 177 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:56,780 But now it's really when the fun and the real work starts when we actually have six companies 178 00:11:56,780 --> 00:11:58,380 in the group. 179 00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:02,240 So what's the exit strategy for products if there is one yet? 180 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,120 Yeah, I like to say and to think that you should not think too much about the next strategy. 181 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,760 You should think about building a fantastic business, because if you have a fantastic 182 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,420 business, you can keep it and live from the dividends. 183 00:12:15,420 --> 00:12:19,240 You can put it on the stock market or you could sell it. 184 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,600 So the core of any business exit strategy should be to build a fantastic business. 185 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,320 And that's what we're trying to do. 186 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,800 I only mentioned it because Spotify and Acast are both floated on markets right now. 187 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,460 I just wondered if that's a natural evolution for you guys. 188 00:12:33,460 --> 00:12:37,640 It could be, but it could be keeping it or it could be selling it as a whole or it could 189 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:38,640 be the stock market. 190 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:39,640 Definitely. 191 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,720 But we are really at a very early stage. 192 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,400 We have just bought the first six businesses in the last six months. 193 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:53,320 And we want to build a group to become bigger and more profitable and a leader when it comes 194 00:12:53,320 --> 00:13:01,160 to content development and IP creation and development of business around IP in the world 195 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:02,400 for podcasters. 196 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:03,560 And we are not there yet. 197 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:05,360 So we have some more work to do. 198 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,360 Stefan, thank you so much. 199 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:14,560 Now before you go, where can content creators and companies go to find out more about products? 200 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:19,800 We have a webpage and they could email me or call me or I'm sure they could find us. 201 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,240 But the webpage is a good start. 202 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:23,240 PodXGroup.com. 203 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,720 Stefan, thank you so much for your time. 204 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,440 Exciting times for PodX. 205 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,240 And I look forward to meeting Frederick in London. 206 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,080 And thank you so much for talking to me Sam. 207 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:33,080 It's been great. 208 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:47,760 Talk to you again soon.