1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,600 Jack is the host of Darknet Diaries. 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,520 And Jack, first of all, tell us who you are. 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,260 What's your background and what was your life 4 00:00:10,260 --> 00:00:12,040 before podcasting? 5 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:17,040 Yeah, I worked for about 10 years in a very technical role 6 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:19,960 trying to detect hackers in the network 7 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,160 and doing InfoSec type stuff. 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,860 And while I was there doing that, I'd go to conferences 9 00:00:26,860 --> 00:00:28,940 and I would just hear so many people tell stories 10 00:00:28,940 --> 00:00:31,560 about this time hackers attacked their network 11 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,420 or even stories from hackers 12 00:00:34,420 --> 00:00:36,400 about the time they did something. 13 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,360 And I thought, you know what, we need to start capturing 14 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:43,200 some of this stuff and putting it in story format. 15 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,160 I didn't think I could do it justice, 16 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:46,880 so I really didn't do much about it. 17 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:48,600 I kind of told some other podcasters about it, 18 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,480 but there just wasn't any podcast 19 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:52,880 that was just telling hacker stories. 20 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,160 So I just eventually said, you know what, 21 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,920 I might try it myself and I started looking into it. 22 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,800 And I kind of took the kind of the NPR sound 23 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,280 where it's this American life and stuff. 24 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,540 I wanted to add music behind it and interviews and stuff 25 00:01:05,540 --> 00:01:06,500 and play it like that. 26 00:01:06,500 --> 00:01:09,160 So I had to do a lot of research on how NPR did it. 27 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,880 And eventually I did enough research, 28 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,880 probably about four months looking into 29 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,400 how to do storytelling. 30 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,200 And I made my first episode and showed it to my friends 31 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,280 and family and they said, go for it, this is great. 32 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:22,960 We can't wait to hear the episode two. 33 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:24,220 And it just kept going from there. 34 00:01:24,220 --> 00:01:27,960 So when did you launch your first episode? 35 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:30,640 About October of 2017 last year. 36 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,280 Okay, so you've been doing them for a year now. 37 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,140 Do you do them every week? 38 00:01:36,140 --> 00:01:38,760 No, every two weeks. 39 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,200 And for a little while I was doing it once a month. 40 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,120 And the thing is is that I put so much effort 41 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,360 into every episode that I barely can keep up 42 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:47,280 with every two weeks. 43 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,140 You know, I'm working on this actually full time now. 44 00:01:50,140 --> 00:01:52,560 And it just takes the whole two weeks 45 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:53,960 to get one episode out. 46 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,280 I noticed that there's a lot of detail in your podcast. 47 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:58,840 So how are you doing the research? 48 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,180 Is it all searching the web? 49 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:05,000 So I tap on a lot of shoulders on Twitter 50 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,080 and at conferences and say, hey, 51 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,000 I think I recognize you from a story or something. 52 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,680 Do you have any sort of story to share publicly? 53 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,220 So I'll ask a lot of people. 54 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:17,360 And then if I can't get someone to agree to come on, 55 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,320 then I'll start finding some stories 56 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,120 that have already been covered. 57 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,080 And all the stories I've done so far 58 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,600 have all just been stories that have already been covered 59 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,080 or somebody telling me their own private story. 60 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,080 But I'm starting to get into some investigative journalism 61 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,200 stuff where I'm gonna research something 62 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,440 that I don't think anybody's researched before 63 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,720 and try to come up with answers to some problems. 64 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,760 So after your friends and your family, 65 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,960 the first episode, you start pushing it out, 66 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,260 how did you promote it? 67 00:02:46,940 --> 00:02:49,360 So for about seven years before that, 68 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:50,680 I also kept a blog. 69 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,360 And that blog actually had some pretty good traction. 70 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:54,560 I don't know what I'm getting, 71 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,760 like 30,000 visitors a month to the blog. 72 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,680 And I think that was a big help, right? 73 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,320 Writing and writing and writing and writing and writing, 74 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,200 like hundreds of articles for that blog 75 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,920 to try to explain really technical concepts 76 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:12,920 as simply as I can was just phenomenal for me to do this. 77 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:15,600 So the blog was just a huge help. 78 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,840 And so I put links to my podcast on the blog. 79 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,120 And so I get about seven clicks a day 80 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:23,840 from my blog to my podcast. 81 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,440 So seven new people interested in the show a day 82 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,240 is pretty good. 83 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,880 And the thing about promoting something 84 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,760 is you don't wanna use big brushstrokes. 85 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,640 You kinda wanna do little things and very gradually go up. 86 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,280 And it's just, it's not because you have to, 87 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:41,720 or it's just because you have to, 88 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,360 it's not because you don't want to. 89 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,800 So getting one new subscriber a day, 90 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,880 five new subscribers a day is a really good goal 91 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,880 at the beginning to just, it's doable. 92 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,160 You think about, well, I need to put a billboard 93 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,440 in an airport or something. 94 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,680 No, that's not doable. 95 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,040 You're not gonna be able to get to that point right away. 96 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,800 So how could I get one new subscriber today 97 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,480 or five new subscribers today? 98 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,960 And I was doing things like reaching out to Twitter 99 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,040 because I had a blog following already. 100 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,400 So I had about 5,000 Twitter followers 101 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,120 and that was a massive, massive way to have a good launch. 102 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,320 It's just to have an existing Twitter audience. 103 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:20,800 And a lot of people try to grow their Twitter 104 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,680 after they make a podcast, 105 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,560 but really a lot of the more successful podcasters out there 106 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,720 already had a Twitter following before they launched. 107 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,600 Right, now the blog that you write, 108 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,640 you said you had 30,000 followers or readers. 109 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,640 What kind of information are they looking for? 110 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,520 That's just kind of like technical questions, 111 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:39,840 stuff I would find out, 112 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:43,440 some stuff I would be doing at work. 113 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,880 So kind of lessons learned. 114 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,240 I was doing really technical stuff with firewalls 115 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,480 and intrusion prevention systems and stuff. 116 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,800 So I'd hit some problems with that. 117 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,680 Google question, the problem, nobody would have the answer. 118 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,000 And so I'd have to figure it out on my own. 119 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,960 That's perfect stuff to blog about. 120 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,360 Or just notes that I wanted to keep real handy 121 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,320 instead of looking through tons of white papers 122 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,040 and stuff to try to find answers to certain things. 123 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,800 Just figure it out once and then blog about it. 124 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,600 And so it's really simple to read for my record. 125 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,320 So a lot of people just Google a question, 126 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,000 they get to my blog, get the answer and get out. 127 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,440 It's not something where you're learning about, 128 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,320 I don't know, it's not like a stream of thought 129 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:22,520 or consciousness out of my mind. 130 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,600 It's all very technical questions. 131 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,120 So Jack, this may sound like a dumb question 132 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,120 and tell me if it is, 133 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,560 but is there really a dark side of the internet 134 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,980 that there's a lot of people surfing on? 135 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,600 Yeah, and I think what I wanted to capture on my show 136 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,080 is just kind of all that stuff that is kind of hidden. 137 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,000 The stuff that's just below the surface. 138 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,880 Not really on the dark net per se, 139 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:51,040 but just like stuff that's going on 140 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,920 that we wouldn't ever see because it's secret, 141 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,960 it's hidden, it's off our radar 142 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,440 on just normal people looking at the internet. 143 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,040 So that could include hacking, 144 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,720 it could include stuff going on in the dark net. 145 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,920 And yeah, there's all kinds of chat rooms and forums 146 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,920 and stuff where people figure, people get together 147 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,840 and they plan certain, I don't know, takedowns or attacks 148 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:20,760 or theft of things. 149 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,840 And yeah, it's kind of like a, 150 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:25,280 often where a lot of this stems from 151 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:30,280 is teenagers playing video games late into the night, 152 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,320 learn how to cheat in the game, 153 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,720 and then they say, well, what could I do in the real world? 154 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:36,940 How could I cheat the real world? 155 00:06:36,940 --> 00:06:39,240 And then they figure out a hack on a certain website 156 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,960 or something to do something else. 157 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,400 And the thing is that these teenagers, 158 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,100 they have, they stay up late at night 159 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:47,880 to get really into whatever they're doing. 160 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,080 I mean, I was there too, right? 161 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,520 I'd stay up all night, even in college, 162 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,240 working on some video game or something, 163 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,040 and then you just get drawn into the next thing, 164 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,800 like programming or something. 165 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,520 And so they just have all this time and energy 166 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,380 and motivation to just do something crazy. 167 00:07:01,380 --> 00:07:04,120 And so they end up learning how to hack. 168 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,240 And a lot of stuff just comes from that kind of space. 169 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,480 So is it really easy to, 170 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,440 or how easy is it to hack into a bank 171 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,840 or hack into a government database? 172 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,560 It sounds like we're reading about that all the time. 173 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:20,400 Yeah. 174 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,200 If you try to go to the front gates 175 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,680 and try to hack in through the front door kind of thing, 176 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:27,500 it's really hard. 177 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:28,560 You're not gonna get anywhere. 178 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,280 The easy thing is that you can send a phishing email 179 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:33,700 to somebody who works there 180 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:36,160 and they can click it and they can get infected. 181 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,480 And now you have control over somebody, 182 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,920 maybe a teller's computer or something right in the bank. 183 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,200 And so the humans are usually the biggest weakness still. 184 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:51,200 And there's not a good solution to keeping them, 185 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:52,800 securing that kind of thing, 186 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,120 because everyone has some sort of excitement, 187 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,440 like, oh, there's money waiting for me. 188 00:07:58,440 --> 00:07:59,280 What's this email? 189 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,360 Or this is the spreadsheet for all the payroll 190 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:04,600 for the whole company? 191 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,520 Why did somebody accidentally send this to me? 192 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,720 And so they have this curiosity, they have this ego, 193 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,120 they wanna figure it out. 194 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,920 And they'll click on it and open it 195 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,760 and it says, do you wanna install these macros 196 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,080 and enable this JavaScript? 197 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,840 And you're like, yeah, I wanna see this. 198 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,880 Whatever's in this email, I wanna see it. 199 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,280 So people get hacked a lot that way. 200 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,920 So you're a year into the podcast now. 201 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,340 First of all, when you first started, and even now, 202 00:08:28,340 --> 00:08:30,920 what equipment are you using and who's hosting it? 203 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,560 Tell us the kind of nuts and bolts 204 00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:35,200 of how you got started there with the equipment 205 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:36,640 and the hosting and all that. 206 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:37,580 Yeah, great question. 207 00:08:37,580 --> 00:08:39,080 I'm glad you asked me specifically 208 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,040 because I have a lot to say about this. 209 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,780 I started with just a USB mic that I already had, 210 00:08:46,780 --> 00:08:48,200 which was the Blue Snowball. 211 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,160 And I wanted to start without any extra cost. 212 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,480 And I started with the Blue Snowball 213 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,320 and I started hosting with Amazon free tier 214 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,920 for like a year or something like that, 215 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,360 saying, okay, no extra cost. 216 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,080 And I was using Audacity to do. 217 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:08,760 So it's literally zero cost. 218 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:09,740 And I think that's the best way 219 00:09:09,740 --> 00:09:11,240 to do anything for a hobby, right? 220 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,240 It's just bring together the equipment that you have 221 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,920 and see what you can make with your own stuff. 222 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,320 I hate having this limitless capability 223 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,000 because then you end up realizing your creativity 224 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,120 is really the thing that's, or your motivation 225 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,140 or your drive is really what's the limiting factor here. 226 00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:30,080 And it's not really the equipment. 227 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,480 And so taking a really limited pieces of equipment 228 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,040 and seeing how far you can go with that 229 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,400 is always a big goal for me. 230 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,000 So I used just this equipment that I had for a long time, 231 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,600 the free stuff until that didn't work. 232 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,680 And in a few months, the AWS free tier was up. 233 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:50,760 I had used all the space that I did. 234 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,240 And so I moved to Libsyn, which is a great hosting provider. 235 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,600 But at the same time, I thought, okay, 236 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,680 I'm five episodes into this. 237 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:00,160 People are starting to like it. 238 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:01,520 I'm gonna upgrade my microphone. 239 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,080 So I got the Shure SM58, 240 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,760 which is probably an $80 microphone is what I paid for it. 241 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:08,960 Really rugged. 242 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,160 It had a lot of great sound quality to it. 243 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,980 I like the intimacy and the closeness 244 00:10:13,980 --> 00:10:17,120 that you get out of that sound from that mic. 245 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,640 And so I still bought that used from eBay. 246 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,120 In fact, it's dented. 247 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,620 It's very worn, 248 00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:27,160 but it was perfectly sounding mic. 249 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,560 So it's a really rugged mic. 250 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:31,960 And I knew even if it was dented, it'd be fine. 251 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,560 And I think all the stuff I bought was always used. 252 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:40,240 And then, that goes for another six or eight months. 253 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,920 And I kick up like a Patreon 254 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,200 and some fans start supporting the show. 255 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,200 And what they want is a better quality show. 256 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,020 And so I used the money from Patreon 257 00:10:49,020 --> 00:10:53,020 to just recently buy the Shure SM7B, 258 00:10:53,020 --> 00:10:55,440 which has been my dream mic since the beginning. 259 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,360 And listener supported kind of thing is the approach 260 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,560 I recommend a lot of people do. 261 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:05,120 Use what you already have or get very cheap or borrow. 262 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,880 In fact, I did borrow mics for a long time as well 263 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,560 before actually buying my own. 264 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:15,040 Because you don't wanna spend $500, $1,000 on something, 265 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,160 and then just three, five, seven episodes later you quit. 266 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:19,520 And now you've got all this equipment 267 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,720 that you're never gonna use again. 268 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,160 So yeah, take it the slow, cheap way 269 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,780 and make your audience pay for your equipment. 270 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:31,200 Now, if people go on your website, they'll see you, 271 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,000 it's kind of an eerie picture. 272 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,360 I'm not sure if that's a picture of you 273 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,860 or a drawing or a logo, but tell us what that is. 274 00:11:37,860 --> 00:11:41,620 Because it fits, exactly fits right into your content. 275 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,980 Yeah, I got on Fiverr and I had somebody draw me 276 00:11:45,980 --> 00:11:48,920 a version of a photo that was of me. 277 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:50,880 And I use that as my avatar everywhere. 278 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,960 And I kind of wanted a little bit stylized version of me. 279 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,360 And not so much an exact photo, 280 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:58,680 and a wet photo to use and all that. 281 00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:02,400 But a little cartoon image is what it is. 282 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,640 And I just really like the style of it 283 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,320 and I've been using that everywhere. 284 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,480 Okay, you said Fiverr? 285 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,080 Yeah, Fiverr is a place where you can outsource 286 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:12,920 all kinds of things. 287 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,520 You can get podcast editors there, 288 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,760 you can get graphic designers there, all kinds of stuff. 289 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:18,800 And how is that spelled? 290 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,360 I've never even heard of that before. 291 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:21,560 I know I should. 292 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:25,640 Sure, it's F-I-V-E-R-R dot com. 293 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:26,480 Gotcha. 294 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,120 Now, when I was listening, I also noticed you had Casper 295 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:31,120 as one of your sponsors. 296 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,160 So obviously the show is doing great. 297 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,440 Just recently I joined Megaphone 298 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,200 and turned on the Megaphone Targeted Marketing Place. 299 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:46,200 And this allows me to put in ads that are not made by me, 300 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,120 but are dynamically inserted by Megaphone. 301 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,680 So if you're looking for a new bed, 302 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:53,840 you might get the Casper ad. 303 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,960 If you live in Seattle, you might get a coffee ad. 304 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,400 It's all based on where you are in the world 305 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,400 and maybe what your previous online shopping habits have been. 306 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:05,900 It's really fascinating the way 307 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:07,440 that they do dynamic ad insertion. 308 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,920 But yeah, the answer is I'm getting currently 309 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,580 about 40,000 downloads per episode. 310 00:13:13,580 --> 00:13:16,440 And that is just now making me say, 311 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,320 okay, I better start monetizing this. 312 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,480 So I am currently looking for ads, deals, and sponsors. 313 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,720 Cool, so 40,000 is an excellent number. 314 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,520 It doesn't sound like you're gonna have a problem 315 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,280 getting sponsors for that. 316 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,520 What number of sponsors do you wanna limit it to? 317 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,460 Because that's always the dilemma. 318 00:13:33,460 --> 00:13:34,880 You don't wanna have too much clutter in there 319 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,840 because obviously people are there to hear you. 320 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,640 Yeah, I had to shop around for quite a while 321 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,560 to find somebody willing to agree 322 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:45,240 to the number of sponsors that I wanted in. 323 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:50,240 And that's only two ads per episode. 324 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,480 And some of the bigger networks, 325 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,680 I actually got approached by numerous big networks 326 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:57,680 and they said, no, we won't do it for less than three 327 00:13:57,680 --> 00:13:59,080 or four ads per episode. 328 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,640 And I'm like, that's just too many. 329 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,560 I don't wanna even, I'm okay with two 330 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:05,200 and I don't wanna, that's my limit. 331 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,520 I don't wanna go over that. 332 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,100 So it took me a while to find somebody 333 00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:10,600 who would agree to that. 334 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,960 Well, can you tell us who those networks were? 335 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:13,800 No. 336 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,680 I noticed you have, I mean, you're doing great, man. 337 00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:19,680 You have 421 people on the Patreon account 338 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,080 and 1200 bucks, that's a killer month right there. 339 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,580 Yeah, yeah, it's really looking good on Patreon. 340 00:14:26,580 --> 00:14:30,840 I would like to go 100% no ads, 341 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,480 but I did quit my job to do this full time. 342 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,600 So I need something now and kind of in a dip. 343 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:37,560 I'm running out of cash, 344 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,720 so I need something to just get me through it. 345 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,560 Come on, people, he's running out of cash now. 346 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:42,480 Let's go, let's go. 347 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,440 This is great stuff here. 348 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,160 So I think as I get through that, 349 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,320 I'll be able to pull back the ads again 350 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,200 and I got other plans in the works. 351 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,200 I may write a book, I may make an online video course 352 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,160 and I think that's where the big money is in podcasting 353 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,920 is to use your existing influencer status 354 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,560 or the size of your audience 355 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,360 to sell them on the next thing you're making. 356 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,320 And if you sell something else to them 357 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,440 and they're already big fans of yours, 358 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,560 chances are they're gonna buy your next thing. 359 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,000 Right, now the last episode that you did was about the IRS 360 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,480 and you had snippets of the IRS director 361 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,320 talking about the money. 362 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,720 I mean, the content of the clips wasn't as important as, 363 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,160 I'm wondering, do you have to get permission for those? 364 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,300 Well, that was a Senate hearing 365 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:36,340 and Senate hearings are public domain, 366 00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:39,760 so I did not have to get permission to use those. 367 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,560 I do use a lot of music in my show, 368 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,920 but I did pay a licensing fee that lets me use music. 369 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,560 I use a place called Epidemic Sounds. 370 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,120 Let me double check that. 371 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:56,120 Yes, Epidemic Sounds and they gave me a one year license 372 00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,960 to use as many songs as I wanted in my podcast. 373 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,880 And there are a lot of free places to get music online. 374 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:10,120 What you're looking for is Creative Commons free music. 375 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,960 Now there, I'll just stop there. 376 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,200 What did that cost you, you remember? 377 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,300 I found like a big sale on it, 378 00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:23,040 so I'm gonna say probably around 300 or $400 a year. 379 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,160 Okay, gotcha. 380 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,120 So now that you're doing this so often 381 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,360 and you quit your job, how are you gonna make it work? 382 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:34,440 What's your next step? 383 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,680 What's your plan to make a full time good living at it? 384 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,920 Yeah, so the ads I think are gonna start bringing in. 385 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,500 So here's the thing with Megaphone. 386 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:44,360 It's a hosting provider. 387 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,200 I moved from Libsyn. 388 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:46,040 I really love Libsyn. 389 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,160 I highly recommend Libsyn for everyone. 390 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,440 But what Megaphone lets me do is dynamically insert ads 391 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,400 which would allow me to monetize the whole back catalog. 392 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,900 So even though I'm getting 40,000 listeners per episode, 393 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:02,160 I get about 200,000 downloads a month. 394 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,840 So if I can monetize all those past episodes, 395 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,920 all that 200,000, I'm really looking at 200,000 downloads 396 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,360 a month of monetizing. 397 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:13,400 And that's what's great right now 398 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,640 is to be able to go back into all those episodes 399 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,200 because when people find the show, 400 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,400 they often binge listen to at least seven episodes 401 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,620 before falling off. 402 00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:26,920 So getting them, the new listeners to get through, 403 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,660 I mean, the show's growing. 404 00:17:29,660 --> 00:17:32,520 And we can get into this if you want, 405 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,480 but I do a lot of marketing of the show. 406 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,800 And I've listened to a ton of podcasts about marketing 407 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,400 and read a lot of books on marketing. 408 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,600 And so I think that in 2019, my show's gonna double in size. 409 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:45,440 Nice. 410 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,380 And having that back catalog monetized 411 00:17:48,380 --> 00:17:49,900 is really gonna be helpful. 412 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:53,320 So what are one or two of your favorite marketing podcasts, 413 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,840 or yeah, podcasts, just in case other people out there 414 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,840 wanna log on and listen to them? 415 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,320 Wow. 416 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,740 One or two favorites. 417 00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:05,280 It's hard to choose. 418 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,220 I have, I pull a little bit about from everybody here. 419 00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:09,840 So Gary Vaynerchuk, I think, 420 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,520 has been a big influence of mine 421 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,840 to just kind of get off my butt and start doing something. 422 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,840 He can be a little rough around the edges 423 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,840 because he'll yell at you and call you names 424 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,480 and wonder why you haven't done anything. 425 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:25,300 Let me see here. 426 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:28,780 The Smart Passive Income one with Pat Flynn 427 00:18:28,780 --> 00:18:30,620 has always been a favorite of mine. 428 00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:34,620 The Tim Ferriss Show has really given me a lot of ideas. 429 00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:38,420 And then there's littler ones like Everyone Hates Marketers, 430 00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:40,260 which is by a French guy. 431 00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:42,220 That one has a lot of really great ideas. 432 00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:46,220 Online Marketing Made Easy by Amy Porterfield is great. 433 00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:50,380 And yeah, there's a lot of them out there. 434 00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:51,220 Excellent. 435 00:18:51,220 --> 00:18:54,660 So anything else that you wanna add, 436 00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:56,940 anything else that you want people to know 437 00:18:56,940 --> 00:19:00,300 about how you threw in the towel on your day job 438 00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:03,420 and you decided to just jump in with both feet 439 00:19:03,420 --> 00:19:05,180 and become a podcaster? 440 00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:07,300 Yeah, that's a great question. 441 00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:09,260 That was kind of a scary leap, 442 00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:11,060 but at the same time I was burnt out at work, 443 00:19:11,060 --> 00:19:13,220 so I needed something new. 444 00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:17,380 The thing that I think really made me realize, 445 00:19:17,380 --> 00:19:21,060 I've got something here, is the amount of fan mail I got. 446 00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:22,680 There was just so many emails 447 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,260 and so many people messaging me on Twitter 448 00:19:24,260 --> 00:19:26,660 and Instagram and Facebook saying, 449 00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:29,540 man, this show is unbelievable. 450 00:19:29,540 --> 00:19:31,260 I had to sit my whole family down 451 00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:33,260 and have them listen to this one episode 452 00:19:33,260 --> 00:19:35,980 because they needed to understand this. 453 00:19:35,980 --> 00:19:38,180 There's hacking stories that your family 454 00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:39,660 doesn't get to hear very often 455 00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:42,740 because you maybe as a techie didn't share it with them 456 00:19:42,740 --> 00:19:45,700 or something and I explain it in a simple way 457 00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:49,020 that it's even reachable by a bigger audience. 458 00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:51,660 And so I hear people telling me 459 00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:53,980 that their nine-year-old kid listens 460 00:19:53,980 --> 00:19:56,340 and even their grandma listens 461 00:19:56,340 --> 00:19:58,500 and I'm just like, I'm hitting something here. 462 00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:01,980 I've got something that if these people love it so much 463 00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:03,460 that they're willing to take the time out of their day 464 00:20:03,460 --> 00:20:05,500 to explain in like six paragraphs 465 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:07,100 how my show has changed their life 466 00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:08,860 or influenced them in some way. 467 00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:10,780 Some people are telling me they changed their career, 468 00:20:10,780 --> 00:20:12,540 then I know I've got something here. 469 00:20:12,540 --> 00:20:15,460 I just need to set it on fire 470 00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:17,460 and this thing could be my career. 471 00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:21,920 And so that's what I kind of set up before leaping into it. 472 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,740 I was podcasting for probably six months 473 00:20:23,740 --> 00:20:25,180 before quitting my job. 474 00:20:25,180 --> 00:20:26,820 Now, do you ever have guests on 475 00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:29,740 or is it mostly you doing the show with the research 476 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:31,980 and the sound bites and the music? 477 00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:35,580 Yeah, I do have a lot of guests on. 478 00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:37,340 Some of them are ex-hackers 479 00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:40,420 where maybe they've even been to prison and come back 480 00:20:40,420 --> 00:20:41,940 and trying to redeem themselves 481 00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:43,900 but still have a good story to tell. 482 00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:47,340 And others are FBI agents that I've interviewed, 483 00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:48,500 anyone that's been involved 484 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:50,140 with some sort of hacking incident. 485 00:20:50,140 --> 00:20:52,820 And trying to find those guests is very difficult. 486 00:20:52,820 --> 00:20:55,220 Like I was saying earlier, I tap a lot of shoulders 487 00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:57,420 and I just get a lot of no answer 488 00:20:57,420 --> 00:20:59,900 or just no, can't talk about it. 489 00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:01,820 Because I hear about something in the news 490 00:21:01,820 --> 00:21:03,580 and I'm like, hey, this person just did this. 491 00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:04,620 Here they are on Twitter. 492 00:21:04,620 --> 00:21:07,460 Let's see if they wanna tell their story 493 00:21:07,460 --> 00:21:09,100 and they don't wanna talk about it. 494 00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:14,100 And so I do spend a lot of time trying to get people to talk. 495 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,440 And then one of the things I'm not so good at 496 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,220 is organizing time and calendars 497 00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:21,940 and setting this kind of schedule up. 498 00:21:21,940 --> 00:21:24,380 But I go through a ton of people. 499 00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:27,820 And in fact, sometimes I get someone on my show 500 00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:29,700 and they're just kind of a dud. 501 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:31,140 It didn't work out. 502 00:21:31,140 --> 00:21:33,660 Their story isn't as exciting as I thought 503 00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:35,820 and it just doesn't go. 504 00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:37,860 And that's kind of another thing you gotta do 505 00:21:37,860 --> 00:21:40,420 is kind of filter your show 506 00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:43,220 to be at the quality you really want it to be. 507 00:21:43,220 --> 00:21:45,820 And if something, you gotta guess all set up 508 00:21:45,820 --> 00:21:47,620 and it just doesn't turn out right, 509 00:21:48,940 --> 00:21:51,500 just gotta let it go and filter it out. 510 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:54,100 How much time editing are you putting into each show? 511 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:58,980 I'd say about 60 hours. 512 00:21:58,980 --> 00:22:00,600 No kidding. So 60 hours I think it takes 513 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:01,660 to make each episode. 514 00:22:01,660 --> 00:22:03,060 That's not just editing. 515 00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:05,460 So I have to write. 516 00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:08,580 I write every word that I say on the show. 517 00:22:08,580 --> 00:22:10,780 And so there's a lot of writing and a lot of research. 518 00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:13,940 And then the interview and then cutting up the interview. 519 00:22:13,940 --> 00:22:15,740 There's a lot of cutting it up the interview. 520 00:22:15,740 --> 00:22:17,500 I don't just take it and post it. 521 00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:20,700 I take a little bit from the end of the interview 522 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:21,540 and put it here. 523 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:23,420 I take a little bit from the middle and I put it there. 524 00:22:23,420 --> 00:22:26,140 And I talk all around it and this kind of stuff. 525 00:22:26,140 --> 00:22:28,700 And then there's a lot of music to be added as well. 526 00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:31,460 So it's just a ton of work to be put into it. 527 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:36,180 And the next question I had was 528 00:22:37,220 --> 00:22:39,860 advice that you have for any podcasters out there 529 00:22:39,860 --> 00:22:41,460 that are thinking, I know you're not gonna say 530 00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:43,020 quit your day job tomorrow, 531 00:22:43,020 --> 00:22:47,180 but what advice do you have for people 532 00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:49,220 that are interested in eventually 533 00:22:49,220 --> 00:22:50,740 making a living out of it? 534 00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:53,500 Yeah, I think there's three biggest challenges 535 00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:56,780 that you should be familiar with as a podcaster. 536 00:22:56,780 --> 00:22:59,780 And the first one is creating a great show. 537 00:23:00,820 --> 00:23:03,380 Mediocre shows and good shows don't spread. 538 00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:06,980 Nobody's like, oh, I've heard this really mediocre show. 539 00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:08,460 I wanna tell you about it. 540 00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:09,860 And that never happens. 541 00:23:09,860 --> 00:23:12,660 People only say, hey, I listened to this amazing episode 542 00:23:12,660 --> 00:23:14,900 of this one podcast, you have to hear it. 543 00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:16,940 And that's how your stuff spreads. 544 00:23:16,940 --> 00:23:19,900 And so getting such a high quality show 545 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,460 is like the biggest challenge you're gonna first face. 546 00:23:22,460 --> 00:23:26,100 And you can get over that by pumping out a lot of content 547 00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:28,340 and just doing it and doing it and practicing. 548 00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:30,340 And that might take years 549 00:23:30,340 --> 00:23:32,500 before you finally get to a point where it's good. 550 00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:37,500 And pretty much a lot of the big time podcasters, 551 00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:41,140 they seem like overnight successes, 552 00:23:41,140 --> 00:23:44,460 but there's probably five or 10 years of hard work 553 00:23:44,460 --> 00:23:46,220 that went into that before they got to that point. 554 00:23:46,220 --> 00:23:47,620 Maybe they were already on the radio 555 00:23:47,620 --> 00:23:49,420 or doing some other podcast 556 00:23:49,420 --> 00:23:52,820 or standup comics in nightclubs 557 00:23:52,820 --> 00:23:54,900 or something that already got them to the point 558 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:57,740 where they feel good at what they're doing. 559 00:23:57,740 --> 00:23:59,460 And they're not just grabbing their phone, 560 00:23:59,460 --> 00:24:01,780 hitting record and saying, let's just talk about my day. 561 00:24:01,780 --> 00:24:03,300 Those low effort shows 562 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:04,940 are gonna have a really hard time picking up. 563 00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:08,540 So you gotta put a lot of focus on making great show. 564 00:24:08,540 --> 00:24:11,740 And the second biggest problem you're gonna hit 565 00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:14,460 is marketing the show. 566 00:24:14,460 --> 00:24:16,700 And a lot of people who finally make a great show, 567 00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:17,980 they don't know how to market it. 568 00:24:17,980 --> 00:24:19,460 And the thing is, 569 00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:21,580 is that there's no secret about marketing a podcast. 570 00:24:21,580 --> 00:24:23,460 It's the same as marketing anything. 571 00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:25,140 You market a blog, you market a product, 572 00:24:25,140 --> 00:24:28,060 you market your favorite song, whatever. 573 00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:29,300 It's all the same. 574 00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:33,540 Get on social media because that's where everyone is. 575 00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:35,500 Billions of people are there looking at their phones 576 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:37,340 instead of looking at the road 577 00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:38,380 while they're driving down the street, 578 00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:39,220 they're looking at their phones. 579 00:24:39,220 --> 00:24:41,900 So get in front of them wherever they are. 580 00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:44,940 Get in those conversations that's in your niche 581 00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:48,820 and just be part of whatever world your audience is in. 582 00:24:48,820 --> 00:24:51,420 Be there with them and you're gonna get people 583 00:24:51,420 --> 00:24:53,740 picking up on what you're putting down. 584 00:24:53,740 --> 00:24:56,140 And then the last challenge that you're gonna face 585 00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:59,100 is sustaining it. 586 00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:00,900 A lot of people quit after five episodes, 587 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:02,340 seven episodes, 10. 588 00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:03,980 And as you get going, 589 00:25:03,980 --> 00:25:07,620 you're going to maybe need some money to keep it going 590 00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:09,620 and motivation and stuff. 591 00:25:09,620 --> 00:25:13,500 And so figuring out how to make a high quality show 592 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:15,580 without burning yourself out too fast 593 00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:17,740 or pumping out so many episodes, 594 00:25:17,740 --> 00:25:19,500 you wanna pump out as many episodes as you can 595 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:21,060 that doesn't burn yourself out as well. 596 00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:23,420 So I cut back to once a month 597 00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:25,500 because I was feeling burnt out by podcasting. 598 00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:26,980 Even though I even quit my job, 599 00:25:26,980 --> 00:25:28,500 I could still only put out one a month, 600 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:30,860 which is crazy to think. 601 00:25:30,860 --> 00:25:32,640 I've quit my job, I'm doing this full time, 602 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,380 but I'm still only doing once a month. 603 00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:35,980 And if you look at like, 604 00:25:35,980 --> 00:25:37,380 Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, 605 00:25:37,380 --> 00:25:39,460 he only puts one out every few months. 606 00:25:39,460 --> 00:25:40,980 And so, but the thing is, 607 00:25:40,980 --> 00:25:41,820 is when he does it, 608 00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:45,100 he brings such high quality to every single episode. 609 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:48,420 And so he does it in a way that's not burning himself out. 610 00:25:48,420 --> 00:25:50,500 If he wakes up one day, he doesn't wanna podcast, 611 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:52,900 he doesn't have to because he's not on a schedule, right? 612 00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:55,260 So you set yourself goals 613 00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:56,880 that you're continually making things 614 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,500 because that's how you're gonna make better, 615 00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:01,120 but you don't wanna overextend yourself so you burn out. 616 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:04,100 And the other part of sustaining yourself 617 00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:05,460 is making money off of it. 618 00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:07,560 And that's kind of a skill all on its own. 619 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,860 In fact, I don't even wanna get into that 620 00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:12,360 because I'm overworked already. 621 00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:14,380 So that's why I hired an agency 622 00:26:14,380 --> 00:26:19,080 who's I'm paying 30% of all my podcast income to them 623 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,420 to help me find the sponsors 624 00:26:20,420 --> 00:26:23,820 and get all the monetization of it. 625 00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:24,960 Wow. 626 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,160 Well, Jack, we're out of time. 627 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,180 You are awesome, man. 628 00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:28,220 Very motivational. 629 00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:30,420 And I'm sure everybody that listens to this 630 00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:31,780 will agree with that. 631 00:26:31,780 --> 00:26:33,580 How can people listen to your show, 632 00:26:33,580 --> 00:26:35,900 reach you, follow you, lay it all out there 633 00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:40,060 so people can get in contact with you and follow you? 634 00:26:40,060 --> 00:26:42,460 Yeah, I love helping people out. 635 00:26:42,460 --> 00:26:45,540 So you can reach out to me on Twitter. 636 00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:47,180 I'm Jack Reciter. 637 00:26:47,180 --> 00:26:50,180 And you can listen to my show, Darknet Diaries. 638 00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:51,740 But I also blog about a lot of things 639 00:26:51,740 --> 00:26:54,980 podcasters can get tips on and stuff. 640 00:26:54,980 --> 00:26:58,020 And my blog, this is a new blog I started making. 641 00:26:58,020 --> 00:26:59,380 It's called Lime Link. 642 00:26:59,380 --> 00:27:03,800 And the URL is lime.link. 643 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,020 That's as simple as that. 644 00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:06,140 Gotcha. 645 00:27:06,140 --> 00:27:07,940 Well, thanks a lot so much for coming on, Jack. 646 00:27:07,940 --> 00:27:08,780 We really appreciate it. 647 00:27:08,780 --> 00:27:09,620 Good luck. 648 00:27:09,620 --> 00:27:10,700 And I hope to have you on again. 649 00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:12,500 And were you telling us you're making 650 00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:14,580 tens of thousands of dollars per episode? 651 00:27:14,580 --> 00:27:15,420 All right, good luck. 652 00:27:15,420 --> 00:27:35,780 I hope you make a ruckus.