1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,800 The first question I like to ask everybody, Lauren, is who is Lauren Shippen? 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,000 Well, I don't ask them that, but I'll ask you that. 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,840 Oh, gosh. 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:15,320 What a question. 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:20,760 I would say a writer, creator working mostly in audio. 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,600 Now how did you get involved in podcasting? 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:32,680 So about four years ago, I was living in LA and acting and trying to forge my path as 8 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:37,760 a creative person and just really wanted to make something that I could control every 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:44,280 aspect of and that I could make myself and not have to rely on other people's expertise 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,560 or funding or whatever. 11 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,640 And I was really enjoying a couple of fiction podcasts at the time and just thought it'd 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,640 be fun to try my hand at it. 13 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,960 And I had this idea for this character who was a time traveler and only time traveling 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,880 between panic attacks and started to think about who I could put her into conversation 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,360 with and then I realized it would be interesting to put her in therapy and the whole story 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:08,360 kind of grew from there. 17 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:15,160 But it was really just a desire to make something and have a creative project that was entirely 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,240 on my own. 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,640 So which fiction podcast were you listening to? 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:19,640 I'm curious. 21 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,080 I was listening to Welcome Tonight, Bill, of course, which I feel like is a lot of people's 22 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,400 very first fiction podcast. 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,880 And actually, it's not a podcast, but I was also listening to a lot of Cabin Pressure, 24 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,440 which is a BBC Radio 4 sitcom. 25 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:33,440 Got you. 26 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,800 Now, how did you decide you want to get into podcasting or audio? 27 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,200 What steps did you take? 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,480 I mean, the first step was writing the scripts. 29 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,280 I wrote nine episodes and reached out to a couple of friends of mine who had been in 30 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,920 acting class with and asked if they would be willing to kind of hop in and try this 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,720 thing just for free as an experiment. 32 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:04,560 And I borrowed my friend's Blue Yeti mic and kind of figured out how to use it and 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,840 got Adobe Audition and figured out how to edit. 34 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,520 And just, I mean, really, it was just a trial and error and watching lots of YouTube tutorials 35 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,840 and Googling lots of things about what's the best RSS feed host and things like that. 36 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:22,280 But yeah, the first step was just writing essentially, the first season especially is 37 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:23,280 just scenes. 38 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,560 They're just long scenes of therapy sessions. 39 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,160 And so I was just sitting down and writing those scripts and then roping some actors 40 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,520 into it. 41 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:39,640 So what's it like to sit down and write nine episodes of a show? 42 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:44,400 It was pretty gradual and then sort of all at once, if that makes sense. 43 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,200 So I wrote the first episode actually back in 2014. 44 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:53,280 And very little actually changed from that initial script and what ended up in the podcast. 45 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,320 But I wrote it and I sent it to some friends and sort of like started tossing around some 46 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,320 other ideas and then I just sat on it for a year because I was really busy with other 47 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:07,000 things and I was just hustling and working at a restaurant and acting and all this kind 48 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,000 of stuff. 49 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,200 And I didn't really think that I could write. 50 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,640 I didn't think it was something I could do because I'd never really done it before. 51 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:17,720 I wrote short stories and half finished novels when I was growing up but never anything I 52 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,760 shared with anybody and I never took a creative writing class or anything like that. 53 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,200 So I think I just sort of got a little bit of imposter syndrome about it. 54 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:33,840 And then finally, about a year later, I was just very creatively unfulfilled and just 55 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,040 decided to revisit it because it had just been on my mind. 56 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,760 In the interim year, all these other characters had kind of come up and Dr. Bright was really 57 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,440 beginning to take form in my head. 58 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,560 And so I figured out, okay, here's the two characters that I've been thinking of that 59 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,200 interest me most other than Sam and Dr. Bright. 60 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,960 It's Chloe, this mind reader, and Caleb, this empath. 61 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,320 And I'm just going to sit down and write their first episode. 62 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:04,040 And so I did that and I realized, okay, well, this kind of set of three is nice. 63 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,120 So I'll do three sets of three. 64 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:11,160 So nine episodes, three patients, three sessions each. 65 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,420 And then just sort of thinking about what arc for each character I wanted and little 66 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:20,280 seeds I wanted to plant for this mystery that had been building in my own head of who Dr. 67 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:23,080 Bright is and what our motivations are. 68 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,520 And then from there, after I sort of had those first three written, it went pretty quickly. 69 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:34,560 I think I wrote the first nine scripts in about two months, which in retrospect actually 70 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,040 isn't that quickly because they're pretty short scripts. 71 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,260 But for me at the time, definitely felt like writing a lot very, very quickly. 72 00:04:41,260 --> 00:04:46,840 So tell us about the conversations you have with people that you want to be in your podcast. 73 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:52,240 So one of them, Anna Laurie, who also did all of our graphic design for the Bright Sessions 74 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:53,420 is one of my best friends. 75 00:04:53,420 --> 00:04:59,720 And so she was kind of hearing about the process as I was going through it. 76 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,800 And I wrote the character of Chloe really specifically for her. 77 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,640 And so that was just an easy kind of organic thing because we love making stuff together. 78 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,880 We met in a UCB improv class and just it was sort of a no brainer. 79 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:17,920 And then for Brighen and Julia, Caleb and Dr. Bright respectively, I had been in acting 80 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:23,040 class with them for maybe a year, year and a half at that point and just really admired 81 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,880 their work and thought they were really cool, but didn't really know them that well, which 82 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,200 is really funny to think about now because they're two of my closest friends. 83 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,800 But I just reached out to them over Facebook message and like a joint Facebook message 84 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:40,200 and was like, hey, like I'm writing this thing right now and I've been thinking about 85 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:41,760 you guys and writing these characters. 86 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,160 And I don't know if you would be interested. 87 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,920 I can't pay you, but it'll be really quick and I'll do everything else kind of like 88 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,240 very kind of hat in hand message. 89 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,480 They like to make fun of me for that now. 90 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:53,480 Like you were so uncertain. 91 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,960 But yeah, I just reached out and kind of asked if they would be willing to kind of come in 92 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:58,960 and read. 93 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,920 And then they said yes, because they were just so willing to try what was in a lot of 94 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:09,880 ways a new medium for them and a new way of jumping into an acting role. 95 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,920 And the four of us had a table read where we read all nine episodes in one sitting and 96 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,120 just sort of went through it, which was exhausting. 97 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,520 And then we recorded the first episode of each patient sort of by themselves. 98 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:31,840 And then once we got through that first session, I was like, okay, we can probably do both 99 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:34,560 the remaining episodes for this character in one recording session. 100 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,520 So other than Julia, who obviously was in every recording session, each actor only had 101 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,880 two recording sessions for that first season. 102 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:42,880 Okay. 103 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,960 So where does the story come from? 104 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,880 It comes from Sam was really the first step. 105 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,880 So she's the character by the time traveler. 106 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:00,920 And she was just rolling around in my head because I was thinking about it's a bit of 107 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,360 a chicken and egg thing where I can't quite remember if I was trying to think about stories 108 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,640 to tell in audio or if I was thinking about her and thought that she would work well in 109 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,840 audio because I think they sort of happen simultaneously. 110 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:16,720 But I was just spending a lot of time in LA traffic and listening to these audio dramas 111 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:23,640 and thinking about sort of my own struggles with anxiety and the sensation of having a 112 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:30,480 panic attack and how interesting it would be if that manifested in some sort of supernatural 113 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,600 sci fi way. 114 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:37,680 And so there were a couple different iterations of Sam as a character. 115 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:44,120 I knew I wanted her to be an isolated person who kind of travels into these different universes 116 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,720 and that sort of had taken a couple different forms. 117 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,280 At first she was traveling into novels and things like that. 118 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,680 And then as I started to think about my own anxiety and was struggling with panic attacks 119 00:07:53,680 --> 00:08:01,760 myself, all of the various threads of ideas that I'd been having kind of formed into 120 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,480 that character, there's been a lot of time just thinking about how I would tell her story 121 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:06,840 in audio. 122 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,920 And eventually I realized like, okay, I don't want to listen to my voice the whole time. 123 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,760 I don't want to edit my voice the whole time. 124 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,840 I want there to be another person in there. 125 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,040 And that's when I thought of, well, maybe she's talking to a therapist. 126 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,160 And then that kind of opened the floodgates because then it all became about who's the 127 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:23,160 therapist? 128 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:28,440 Or a client who can time travel who are her other clients? 129 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,480 It just sort of spun out from there. 130 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,120 Now storytelling podcasts are not easy. 131 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,440 It's not as easy as me just calling you up and we're doing a question answer podcast. 132 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,360 So you get all these voices together, you do the recording, then you're going into the 133 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:44,960 studio to edit it, right? 134 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,320 And right now it's an idea. 135 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:49,760 You're not making money from it. 136 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:55,440 And so kind of take us through the process of how difficult that is from you're writing 137 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,680 scripts and then you're asking people to help you out and now you're editing. 138 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:00,680 It's a long process. 139 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:05,400 It's some of the storyteller podcasters that we spoke to in the past, you have a huge staff 140 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,000 that are helping them do this. 141 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,000 Yes. 142 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,160 And now I have a staff, which is very nice. 143 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:15,640 But I think, despite the fact that I knew nothing about making a podcast when I first 144 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:22,040 started, I knew a little bit about sounds. 145 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:27,160 I was a music major in college and I had a radio show and the college radio that I had 146 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,760 turned into an mp3 that I uploaded to Mixcloud. 147 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,760 It's probably still out there somewhere, honestly. 148 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,320 And so I knew a little bit about some things. 149 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,720 But despite the fact that I knew nothing about podcasting, I think the one thing that I will 150 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:48,040 credit myself with making a smart choice was that I knew I didn't know that much. 151 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,240 And so I knew to keep it simple. 152 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:55,840 And so I knew to, I made it specifically so that the format of the show is that you're 153 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:01,360 hearing these recordings that this therapist is taking because that would justify in-world 154 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,000 a crappy sound quality. 155 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,120 I thought that people, the audience might be more willing to have the sound be a little 156 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,560 bit shoddy if it was for narrative purposes. 157 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:17,520 And then I also kept it just very simple script-wise. 158 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,840 Two people in a room, it's one scene. 159 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,320 They're ultimately very easy to cut together. 160 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:30,260 And I also, I think just my experience as an actor and working with actors and working 161 00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:36,840 with directors and all that kind of stuff, I sort of knew I could hear the final product 162 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,060 as we were in recording. 163 00:10:39,060 --> 00:10:45,440 And so it wasn't a thing where we were spending seven, eight takes trying to just trying to 164 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:46,440 get everything. 165 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,000 It's like we would do three or four takes and that's the way I've always done things. 166 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,800 And now with some of the actors that I've been working with for years, we'll do two 167 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,100 takes of something. 168 00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:56,800 Because I also like that's a skill that I've just gotten better at of hearing like, okay, 169 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:58,600 yep, that's how I'm going to cut that together. 170 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,320 I just need this one line this way because I know how it's going to come out in the 171 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:03,320 final edit. 172 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:08,600 But I think even back then I sort of knew not to give myself too much work in the post 173 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:09,600 production. 174 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:17,000 Now, of course, I still had everything to learn about like cleaning up files and doing 175 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,000 sound design. 176 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,360 But even that, like I kept the sound design very minimal where it's like the click of 177 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:27,240 a recorder, people walking in, knocking on doors, sitting down, stuff like that, stuff 178 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,080 that I could recreate. 179 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:36,560 And that was something that with the exception of like, actually, no, the door sound I think 180 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,600 actually is a combination of a couple of different sounds. 181 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,800 But basically everything in the first season of the podcast is stuff that I recorded myself. 182 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,440 I did all the foley because I was just like, you know what, instead of trying to Google 183 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,640 for a specific sound, I'm just going to record the sound. 184 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,200 So I went around my parents' house because I was visiting them in New York and just like 185 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,240 opened cabinets and doors and the clock in the Bright Sessions in Dr. Bright's office 186 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,440 is my parents' grandfather clock. 187 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:11,160 And Sam's time travel sound was like the one sound that I was like, well, I can't record 188 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,160 that. 189 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:13,160 Right. 190 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:14,160 So what am I going to do? 191 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,440 And so I got just a bunch of like weird sounds just kind of around my parents' house. 192 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:24,120 And then I literally that Misha, my sound designer has since taken the base of that 193 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,840 sound and recreated it and you know, actual software. 194 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:33,480 But the initial sound that you hear in the first 16 episodes anytime Sam time travels 195 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,200 is literally me going to a mic, just like sucking in air. 196 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,720 And it's all free and all those sound effects didn't cost you anything. 197 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,920 And I just put I just like slap some distortion on it, you know, that original sound actually 198 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:51,480 also has some like some piano strings scraping really, really buried underneath the sound. 199 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,440 Experimented, right? 200 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:59,080 But yeah, so that was the stuff that took the longest in post production just because 201 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:04,800 like I didn't know with, you know, editing and the dialogue edit and stuff like that, 202 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:05,800 I kind of knew. 203 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:06,800 Yeah. 204 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:07,800 I know how to structure a performance. 205 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,840 I know how to structure a scene, whereas I just didn't know what I didn't know about 206 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:12,840 sound design. 207 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,880 And I and you know, I stopped learning anything about sound design once Misha came on board 208 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,480 because they're much better than I am. 209 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,060 They're professional. 210 00:13:19,060 --> 00:13:25,040 And so I've been I've had the luxury of sort of capping out it back in 2015. 211 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:32,760 So did you do did you finish all nine episodes before you decided to upload them? 212 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:33,760 Pretty much. 213 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,400 OK, we had made the schedule. 214 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,680 It was going to be, you know, three weeks weekly and then one week off and then three 215 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:42,680 weeks weekly. 216 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:46,880 You know, again, that's a three episode structure starting November 1st. 217 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,560 And we started recording in September and I was giving myself enough of a runway. 218 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:55,040 And I think by the time the second episode came out, we had recorded everything. 219 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,680 And by the time the third episode came out, pretty much everything was edited. 220 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:01,040 But I didn't have I gave myself enough of a runway, but I didn't have everything completely 221 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,040 done. 222 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:03,040 And were you working at the time? 223 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,040 Yes. 224 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,040 Yeah. 225 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,520 So this is your part time thing while you're working on the side or full time or something. 226 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:10,520 Oh, yeah. 227 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:11,720 I was working. 228 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:17,240 I was working a part time job and I was working a part time job until August of 2018. 229 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:18,240 Gotcha. 230 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,720 So the entire time that I was making the Bright Sessions, I was also working part time. 231 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,520 So you upload the the first few episodes. 232 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,880 And what is it like when you did all this work? 233 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:28,880 It took all this time. 234 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:29,880 You upload them. 235 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,560 And now are you just waiting and watching like everybody else does that has a podcast? 236 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:35,560 Who is going to listen? 237 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,920 Yeah, it was the most anticlimactic thing in the world. 238 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,920 You know, because it's like because I uploaded it. 239 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,720 I remember I uploaded it on October 27th because I, you know, wanted to submit the RSS feed 240 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:50,440 to iTunes and make sure that there were enough and I had enough time to actually release 241 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:51,440 everything on November 1st. 242 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,320 But I remember I was just like sitting in my apartment. 243 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:55,320 I just uploaded it. 244 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,320 It was done. 245 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,320 And I was like, oh, and now nothing happens, which is very, you know, very different from 246 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:02,600 from other things. 247 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,240 And then, you know, November 1st was actually like our release day. 248 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:06,240 So that's when we started tweeting. 249 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,720 And I've been like teasing it on my social media. 250 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,360 But like, I didn't have that many followers on social media at that point. 251 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,720 Maybe like a couple hundred. 252 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,240 And I had a I had a YouTube channel, which is now defunct. 253 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:26,400 But that had like maybe, you know, eight or nine thousand subscribers on it. 254 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,760 And so I, you know, had had mentioned it on that. 255 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:29,760 I did an announcement on that. 256 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,360 So I was hoping to get some of the people from there over there. 257 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,640 But mostly it was just like Facebook friends. 258 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:35,960 Right. 259 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,760 And yeah, that first I think by the end of that first day, I mean, I would have to like 260 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:41,800 actually go back and look. 261 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,120 But we had maybe, you know, 15 downloads. 262 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,440 So when and how does it start catching on? 263 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,560 So yeah, this is a question that a lot of people ask me because I want to know like 264 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,440 what I what I did to sort of make it catch on. 265 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,000 Honestly, like it was there was no one big thing that I think made it catch on. 266 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:08,600 It was sort of a cascading effect and also, I think, like with anything in any kind of 267 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,600 creative career and really life in general, so much of it was just luck and timing. 268 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:18,480 You know, the fact that the fall of 2015 is when Limetown came out, Black Tapes came out, 269 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:23,800 like all of these fiction podcasts were coming out and, you know, Limetown and Black Tapes 270 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,100 were much, much more popular than we were. 271 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:30,040 But it was we were able to kind of ride the wave of fiction podcasts that started in like 272 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,120 mid 2015, which was really, really great. 273 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:38,680 And it also it was it was a rising tide, but it wasn't super overcrowded. 274 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,000 And, you know, there weren't so many fiction podcasts to choose from. 275 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,200 So we were able to kind of to find an audience for the people that were listening to the 276 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,660 Black Tapes and Limetown and stuff like that. 277 00:16:49,660 --> 00:16:55,500 But what I did, honestly, was I just spent a ton of time just guerrilla marketing, essentially. 278 00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:59,480 So I would go onto Tumblr and Reddit were the biggest places. 279 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,360 I've been on Tumblr for over a decade, which is a horrifying thing to say. 280 00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:08,680 And it's a it's a social media platform that I would say. 281 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,720 Unless you are like me and you've sort of been entrenched in fandom for many, many years, 282 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,720 Tumblr is completely opaque as a platform. 283 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:21,600 It's very hard to use and promote on because the typical sort of promotional strategies 284 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:27,320 don't work because you have people who are incredibly skeptical of sort of, you know, 285 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,600 corporate promotion or self promotion or anything like that. 286 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,120 So it was about, you know, speaking the language of Tumblr, which thankfully I already did 287 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:36,800 just like natively having been on it for so many years. 288 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,120 And so I was able to sort of find the audience there. 289 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:43,000 And I knew that Tumblr was how I personally found Welcome Tonight Vale. 290 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,440 And so it's like I knew that there was an audio drama audience there. 291 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,480 And then a friend recommended Reddit to me and I was very scared of Reddit. 292 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,240 But I just went on and and started having conversations with people in the podcast I 293 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,480 read about audio drama. 294 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,040 And I was finding I would look for posts of people looking for audio drama recommendations, 295 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,920 you know, the posts that were like, I love Welcome Tonight Vale and we're alive. 296 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:05,920 What else should I listen to? 297 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:12,400 And I think the thing that I learned very quickly is it's just like the way that I 298 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,400 tend to go into spaces. 299 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:20,000 And then I found it to be very effective is that always doing promotion as a community 300 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,080 minded person versus self motion person. 301 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:28,800 So I would go in and say, you know, if somebody posted like, I love Welcome Tonight Vale, 302 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,840 what other fiction podcast could I listen to? 303 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,600 I'd go in and say like, oh my gosh, I'm obsessed with Lime Town right now. 304 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,280 It's really spooky. 305 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,440 And like, you know, like it's but it's genuinely scary, which I know like Night Vale isn't. 306 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,980 So keep that in mind if you know. 307 00:18:40,980 --> 00:18:43,700 But if you want something that's like a little bit less scary, but still really spooky, Black 308 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:45,240 Tapes is so great. 309 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,960 Also, I do a podcast, you know, and sort of like genuinely recommend and be enthusiastic 310 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,960 about shows that I genuinely was enthusiastic about, and then mentioned that I also had 311 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:54,960 a show. 312 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:55,960 Right. 313 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,960 And people, you know, are more are more trusting than if I just gone in and been like, oh, 314 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,080 listen to my show. 315 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:07,160 And so and then, you know, eventually I found other audio drama creators like, you know, 316 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:13,160 Ars Purae Dacusica and the whole Whisperforge, Wolf for 59, Archive 81, all of these these 317 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,440 podcasts that were kind of being released at the same time. 318 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:20,720 And we started to build a community and and promote each other on Twitter and stuff. 319 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,880 Eventually Jeffrey Kraner of Night Vale tweeted about us and that kind of, you know, legitimized 320 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,840 us to a lot of Night Vale fans, which was amazing. 321 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,580 And then we got featured on iTunes at the end of our second season. 322 00:19:30,580 --> 00:19:35,320 And that was kind of like from there, it was like we could say we were, you know, you know, 323 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,120 we've been featured and we were best of 2016 and everything. 324 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,780 And that that was sort of off the races by that point. 325 00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:45,520 So what is the number of downloads at this point for that first season? 326 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:46,920 For that first season? 327 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,320 And then, yeah, for that first season or overall, I mean, I read in Forbes that it was seven 328 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:52,320 million. 329 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,320 Yeah, it's more it's more than that now. 330 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,320 It's about a dollar now. 331 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:58,320 Wow. 332 00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:59,320 Yeah. 333 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,120 And what was it like to be featured in Forbes? 334 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:04,560 Oh, it's it was so weird. 335 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:05,560 It was so wild. 336 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:16,000 I was like I woke up and like had, you know, an email from from Forbes and I like I thought 337 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,840 it was like a like a spam thing at first. 338 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,040 I almost deleted it and then I opened it and I was like, oh, wait, what? 339 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,020 Because they didn't really like they didn't I don't know that they necessarily like told 340 00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:30,840 me in advance because they I knew that some friends had nominated me. 341 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:31,840 OK. 342 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,080 And then they sent like a sort of follow up like, can you answer this survey and also 343 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,620 provide a photo? 344 00:20:36,620 --> 00:20:40,000 And I thought that that was just just meant that I had like been gotten to like the next 345 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,000 round or whatever. 346 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,360 I didn't realize that that meant that like I, you know, was actually one of the thirty 347 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:46,360 hundred thirty people. 348 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,680 So it was it was very it's still now kind of surreal and strange. 349 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:50,680 Nice. 350 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,840 So now you you you clearly you're on to something, right? 351 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:59,720 You figured out all this work and this editing and recording my parents door slamming is 352 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,500 is is resulted in a smashing success. 353 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:04,500 How do you follow that? 354 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:05,500 How do you follow that up? 355 00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:07,640 You know, what was your plan after that? 356 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,160 And and then how did you start making money at it? 357 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:17,920 I mean, there, oh, there was no plan at no point in any part of the transitions was there 358 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:18,920 a plan. 359 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,520 And I think I see that from like a sort of, you know, meta business standpoint. 360 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:29,120 I think story on the story level, you know, I had I had a general plan and I knew kind 361 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:32,720 of when I wanted to end the show, I had some goals for certain character arcs, things like 362 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:33,720 that. 363 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:34,720 And it was a political episode. 364 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,480 That was something I wanted to do. 365 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,520 And so, yeah, from a story perspective, I was building a plan. 366 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:48,040 But honestly, it was that like, you know, that that that gif of Gromit from Wallis and 367 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:53,000 Gromit just like putting the railroad tracks down in front of him as he's on this train 368 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,560 that's moving. 369 00:21:55,560 --> 00:22:00,440 And it was just I mean, completely, you know, by the seat of my pants type of type of thing. 370 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,880 And I never I never really expected to to make money from it. 371 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:10,440 And I mean, you know, honestly, other than getting paid for acting in it, because I'm 372 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,860 a SAG actor and legally have to have to get paid if I'm under SAG contract. 373 00:22:15,860 --> 00:22:21,860 Other than that, I didn't really ever get consistently paid for writing or producing 374 00:22:21,860 --> 00:22:23,760 or show running the Bright Sessions. 375 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,320 You know, if we had a little surplus in our budget, I would like pay myself for writing, 376 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:28,320 you know, a season. 377 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,440 And I was sort of figure out, you know, OK, like this is this is what I can sort of give 378 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,000 myself and because there's no way to. 379 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,480 You know, if I was if I was paying myself hourly, you know, oh, yeah, forget it. 380 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,680 Even ten dollars an hour for the work that each of the Bright Sessions. 381 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,360 It's like that would be, you know, eight hundred times our budget. 382 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:50,400 So, yeah, it was just sort of whatever surplus I think that we could we could afford. 383 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,160 But pretty much all of the money that we made went directly back into making the show, because 384 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,160 especially once Misha came on board and I could get more flexible with what I could 385 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,560 write because I didn't have to sound design it myself. 386 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,360 And you know, then when we got Evan on board as our composer and we started to get, you 387 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:10,440 know, advertising money and and and Patreon money, things like the musical episode and 388 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:16,400 like having a 30 minute episode with seven actors became possible where it hadn't been 389 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,000 possible before. 390 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,120 And so really, the money went to the service of of the story plan versus any kind of real 391 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,680 life plan. 392 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,560 And it was really only sort of like 2018, you know, two and a half years into the show 393 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,000 where I started to slow down. 394 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,480 It was really towards the end of season four where I was like, OK, you know, I've been 395 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,480 doing this. 396 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,920 I cannot sustain the thing that I've been doing for for, you know, the past few years 397 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,000 because I'm not 24 anymore. 398 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,560 And I'm just you know, it's been it's been a long road and it's been a lot of fun, but 399 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,360 I need to I need to make. 400 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,880 I think that this can be my career and I need to now start treating it as such. 401 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:56,880 And yeah. 402 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,920 And so I started, you know, writing on other shows and, you know, doing like pitching the 403 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:01,920 Am Archives out. 404 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,240 Now it's coming out on Luminary and actually treating it like something that I actually 405 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,520 need to be paid for. 406 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,400 So where so where are you now with The Bright Sessions, another season in July? 407 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:12,400 Is that right? 408 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,760 No, no, no. 409 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,240 So The Bright Sessions itself is wrapped. 410 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,240 OK. 411 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,920 We just released our final bonus episode in just a couple of weeks ago. 412 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:29,600 So we wrapped the whole the whole series last June because I knew I knew I wanted to to 413 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,840 sort of conclude these character arcs at this particular point. 414 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,360 I'm always I'm definitely one of those TV fans who like some shows go on, you know, 415 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,240 seven seasons, season five. 416 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,240 Right. 417 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,240 And so I wanted to really end it on my terms. 418 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,280 And then we did these bonus episodes of just like extra therapy sessions for the past nine 419 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:54,640 months and we're doing our first spinoff. 420 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,520 So we're doing a show called the Am Archives. 421 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,340 It's coming out on Luminary, a new platform on April 23rd. 422 00:24:59,340 --> 00:25:01,240 The first episode drops. 423 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,280 And that's in some ways a continuation of The Bright Sessions in the sense that there's 424 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,240 five returning characters from The Bright Sessions and it picks up after The Bright Sessions 425 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:15,120 ends, but it's a completely new format, a completely new story. 426 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:19,040 It's like one of the things that I one of the reasons I wanted to do like a spinoff 427 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,640 instead of just saying like, OK, well, here's season five of The Bright Sessions and it's 428 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,820 just different is that The Bright Sessions to me is like this very it's very important 429 00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:27,820 to me. 430 00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:28,820 It's very precious to me. 431 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:33,080 It's this contained emotional story, these really small, intimate conflicts. 432 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,040 You know, there's not a lot of there's not a lot of plot in The Bright Sessions. 433 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,560 The Bright Sessions isn't about plot. 434 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,800 It's about emotions. 435 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,480 And and I wanted that I wanted that to be what it is forever. 436 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,160 I didn't I didn't I didn't want to like add just continue to write it and just add more 437 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,320 and more plot and more and more characters. 438 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,720 But I still love this world and there are so many different ways to go. 439 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:59,400 And so the Am Archives is it's you know, it's it's a very contained kind of plot driven 440 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,760 show with a cast of 20. 441 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:08,520 So you know, 50 new cast members and it's got it's like fully scored. 442 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,880 It's you know, it's not kind of, you know, in that record, like everything's recorded 443 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,080 kind of format. 444 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,080 It's completely just like a like an audio drama. 445 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,520 You're just dropped into the action, which means that, you know, we're able to do things 446 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,880 like go time traveling with Sam, which we've never done before, which we do in the Am Archives. 447 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,880 And so, yeah, it's I'm really, really excited about what just like getting to expand. 448 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,440 What did the listeners what did the listeners think when you said this is it season four 449 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,600 shutting her down? 450 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,080 I mean, people people were sad. 451 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,760 I think that, you know, they understood that like all things must come to an end and that 452 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:51,480 I think that there's I think there's a degree of like satisfaction that comes with knowing 453 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:57,480 because we announced in between our in between our sort of two halves of season four. 454 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,720 So after our first eight episodes and before we went into our last eight and we said, you 455 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,920 know, this is this is going to be the last eight episodes of the show. 456 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,520 OK, it was also, you know, tempered with like we have a book like my first book comes out 457 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,360 in September, which is a bright section of novel. 458 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,160 And we're going to be doing these nine bonus episodes. 459 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,800 So it was like it was a it was a slow, like gentle let down. 460 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,040 Like we're ending, but also here's two things and we're hoping to do some spinoffs. 461 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,760 And because at that point, I wasn't sure that we were going to be able to do the Am Archives. 462 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,960 So I said, you know, kind of stay tuned, but who knows? 463 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,640 And so I think people knew that it was not like the end of this universe or these characters. 464 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,880 But yeah, I think I think there's a there seemed to be a degree of satisfaction over 465 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:41,120 just like watching these people, you know, grow and and grow closer and kind of find 466 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,320 this family and then come to a place where they're OK, you know, because that's really 467 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:45,520 what the work is about. 468 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,360 It's about just trying to be OK. 469 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:51,280 And so I wanted to make sure I got all those characters to a place that they they were 470 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:52,280 OK. 471 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,640 Well, tell us about the connection or the call you get from Luminary. 472 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:56,640 Yeah. 473 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:06,120 So I, you know, had been been trying to figure out a way to, you know, get the Am Archives 474 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:09,680 made because just looking at what I wanted to do with it, you know, we hired two other 475 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,680 writers. 476 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,280 I knew I needed to get paid for writing. 477 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,560 I wanted to have a lot more actors. 478 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,160 I wanted to have the full score. 479 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,960 I wanted to pay Misha, you know, their actual rate for sound design versus the friend rate 480 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,880 that they've been giving me for years. 481 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:31,640 And you know, I worked at the budget and I was like, oh, yeah, we can't make this. 482 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,880 And I got I got connected with Luminary and just like talking to Matt Sachs, the CEO there 483 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,520 and just like seeing his passion for his genuine passion for podcasts and then talking to him 484 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,480 about what a partnership would look like and the amount of creative freedom that I would 485 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,880 have and the fact that like Luminary really, really trust their creators to just make the 486 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,800 content that they make and make it well. 487 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,960 And they're very hands off, and that's just such a rare thing, especially somebody who, 488 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,240 you know, lives in Los Angeles and has a lot of friends in television. 489 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,560 It's like that's just unheard of. 490 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,080 So yeah, it just seemed it just seems like a no brainer. 491 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:11,440 And it would just to just to be able to really to make something where everybody's actually 492 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,640 being paid fairly and that is sustainable and that we can not only make a great show, 493 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,080 but we can level up in a huge way. 494 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,080 It was so exciting. 495 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,340 So you took some there was some backlash when you announced you were going to be on Luminary 496 00:29:25,340 --> 00:29:28,920 because it will be a paid it will be a paywall for people. 497 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,480 So you tried to deal with that as nicely as you could. 498 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,600 But people just want things for free, it seems. 499 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:38,600 Yeah. 500 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:39,600 Yeah. 501 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,600 And like I get it. 502 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:46,640 You know, it like it sucks when when something that you love, you know, sort of changes or 503 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:51,000 you like you, you know, you expect to consume something in a certain way. 504 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,320 And then it's not that way anymore. 505 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:53,560 It's like it's it's jarring. 506 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,560 And I get that. 507 00:29:54,560 --> 00:30:00,240 And I think, you know, where I have no no regrets about, you know, decisions I've made 508 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,480 is that this isn't the Bright Sessions, right? 509 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,280 Like it shares a lot of DNA with the Bright Sessions. 510 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,720 It has some of the same characters. 511 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,880 And obviously, you know, it's in the same universe. 512 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,440 But the Bright Sessions ended. 513 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,880 And like and regardless of of making a spinoff, the Bright Sessions was always going to end 514 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:15,880 in the way that it ended. 515 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,760 And the Bright Sessions is always going to be free. 516 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,920 But you know, it was either I make it and it goes behind a paywall or I don't make it 517 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,880 at all. 518 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,040 And in my mind, it's like I I want to continue to work with this team. 519 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,720 I want to give these incredibly talented people more stuff to work with. 520 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,140 I want to work with these writers and help give them, you know, a different kind of platform 521 00:30:40,140 --> 00:30:43,640 for their for their amazing writing. 522 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:50,640 And you know, it is it is drawing, but also like it's just not sustainable to make 523 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,360 audio drama completely for free. 524 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,340 And it's like, yeah, it's like, you know, if you can if you can make an audio drama 525 00:30:56,340 --> 00:30:59,840 and completely fund it through Patreon, through advertising, absolutely do that. 526 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,920 I'm hoping to do that with future audio dramas and things like that. 527 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,920 But just this was not going to be something that looking at all the numbers that we had 528 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,920 and kind of, you know, working out all the potentialities that I would be able to ensure 529 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,760 that I actually could pay everybody. 530 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,760 And that's you know, I never want to be in a position where I'm making something and 531 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,120 then laid on payments to people who are working really hard. 532 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:25,860 And so, yeah, I understand the frustration, but also I just also somebody who is very 533 00:31:25,860 --> 00:31:32,000 invested in audio drama succeeding as an industry and as a legitimate form of entertainment. 534 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,560 I think that, you know, somebody needs to take take the leaps and somebody needs to 535 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,200 to, you know, make take, I guess, take, you know, take the risks of like, all right, I'm 536 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,200 going to try something new and we're going to see if it works. 537 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,680 And I feel that that's as one of the, you know, more established audio drama creators, 538 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,680 I feel that that's something that I can do with with maybe less consequence than somebody 539 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,760 who's just coming up. 540 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:03,280 And also I can use it to then hopefully elevate, you know, other audio drama creators who don't 541 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,320 have the access to things that I do. 542 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,040 And to me, it's like I have it is my responsibility as a creator who cares about this this medium 543 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,400 to just throw a spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. 544 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:22,240 So you're in your 20s when you start writing this, at least according to Forbes, you're 545 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,240 writing this script. 546 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,320 And did you did you ever think, man, I'm doing all this work. 547 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,160 It's it just doesn't seem like all this time is going to pay off. 548 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,680 Did you ever think, you know, of throwing in the towel and what advice do you have to 549 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:41,000 for other people, other folks that want to be podcasters and be storytellers to get them 550 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,000 over that hump? 551 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:47,940 Yeah, I mean, there were definitely times in season two, which I was just I was very 552 00:32:47,940 --> 00:32:48,940 dumb and ambitious. 553 00:32:48,940 --> 00:32:52,720 And, you know, we we finished our first season, we were having such a good time that not a 554 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,240 lot of people were listening, but we were having a great time. 555 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,680 And so I was like, all right, we're going to do season two and we're going to do 20 556 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,720 episodes and we're released them weekly, which was a completely insane thing to do. 557 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,920 Because it was just I mean, I don't remember the spring of 2016 at all because I was just 558 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,200 so overworked. 559 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:17,040 And you know, I think in some ways, though, releasing weekly and sort of the insane amount 560 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,240 of content we were releasing is one of the reasons that we built an audience so fast 561 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:27,120 and so hugely in season two, because it was exciting and there was lots of content coming 562 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,160 out. 563 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,800 But yeah, there were times where I was like, this is just unsustainable. 564 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:39,560 I can't I cannot work, you know, 80 hours a week at this and then still, you know, work 565 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,640 20, 30 hours a week in my part time job. 566 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,120 And like that math doesn't work. 567 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,120 Right. 568 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:50,360 But I think for me, the thing that I even even then I didn't necessarily anticipate 569 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:57,440 it being something that would actually ever pay my rent or turn into a career. 570 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,720 But I just kept going because I just loved making the story. 571 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,960 I just loved working with my actors. 572 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,560 And you know, that's when Misha came on board and getting to work with them and just really 573 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,080 expand my storytelling. 574 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,240 It was just it was just so fulfilling and so, so much fun. 575 00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:19,200 And so I think that's my advice is like, don't like I think, you know, it's an audio drama 576 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,080 and podcasts in general are just a very hot thing to get into right now. 577 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:29,520 Because it's like the budgets are much less taxing than, you know, other mediums. 578 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,320 There's that whole like low barrier to entry discourse, which I have a lot of opinions 579 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,320 about. 580 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,920 And, you know, and, you know, you can really find your audience, you can make something 581 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,960 really specific and find your audience. 582 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,280 And so I think a lot of people are getting into it. 583 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:50,520 And I think if you are making a show and your main priority making a show is like, OK, I'm 584 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,800 looking at the landscape of podcasting, I think this type of show is going to do well 585 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,160 with this kind of audience. 586 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,560 Maybe maybe don't bother if that's why you're making the show. 587 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,760 Like it just because you think that there's an audience and podcasting and it will be 588 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:04,760 successful. 589 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,200 I don't know. 590 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,720 I'm skeptical about how successful that actually will be, because once you actually get into 591 00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:14,400 the grind of making a podcast, unless you really, really love it, it's it's not going 592 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,400 to be worth it. 593 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:16,400 Right. 594 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:17,880 You have to have the passion for what you're doing. 595 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:18,880 Yeah, it has to. 596 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,600 The story, whether it's nonfiction or fiction, like the project itself always has to come 597 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:23,600 first. 598 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,200 That has to be the thing has to be like, I just really want to tell the story. 599 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:27,960 And I think audio is the best way to do it. 600 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,560 Or audio is the thing that I have access to or whatever it is. 601 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:31,560 But I want to tell the story. 602 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,280 I want to talk about this thing, whatever it is. 603 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,480 That has to be your number one priority, because that'll make the late nights and the grind 604 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,680 so much more bearable. 605 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,000 So last question, Lauren, you're you're you're writing your first script. 606 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,560 You're thinking about making a podcast like this, and this August you're going to be the 607 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,960 keynote speaker at Podcast Movement. 608 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,480 Yeah. 609 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:55,480 Put that into perspective. 610 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,480 It's very weird. 611 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,480 Yeah, it's it's it's wild. 612 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,680 And actually, it's it's funny, because I've been thinking about that. 613 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,040 When they asked me to be the keynote speaker, I was like, my first reaction was like, what 614 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,600 am I going to talk about? 615 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,360 And even now, it's like thinking about, you know, I still have a couple of months to actually 616 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,360 write a thing. 617 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:25,240 But thinking about what I can, you know, the the pearls of wisdom or the, you know, relatability 618 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:28,880 or whatever I can that I can relate to an audience interested in fiction podcasting. 619 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:34,360 I'm thinking about, you know, like, well, why am I why am I qualified to do that? 620 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,380 And it still feels like I think there's still that degree of imposter syndrome of like, 621 00:36:37,380 --> 00:36:42,980 this doesn't feel like something that I'm an expert in, despite the fact that, like, 622 00:36:42,980 --> 00:36:47,480 in the grand scheme of things, there aren't that many experts in in, you know, audio fiction 623 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,540 and in the US at least, obviously, in the UK, there's a much longer tradition of this kind 624 00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:53,540 of storytelling. 625 00:36:53,540 --> 00:36:59,160 But like, yeah, it's it's bizarre to really actually be a professional in this space, because 626 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,600 I still feel like I'm learning constantly, which I think is a good thing. 627 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,400 You know, I want to constantly be challenged and I want to learn from my peers and continue 628 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,940 to grow and grow the medium, but it definitely feels I definitely feel a little bit still 629 00:37:08,940 --> 00:37:12,360 like I'm, you know, a kid walking in my parents shoes or something. 630 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:18,200 Well, when they hear you say Blue Yeti, and I was editing myself on Adobe, it's it's 631 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,200 there. 632 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,600 They're all going to feel like, you know, they're in your shoes, too. 633 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:28,320 So well, listen, good luck with the with the new podcast on April 23rd, AM Archives, and 634 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,400 that'll be on Luminary. 635 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,000 So everybody's looking forward to that. 636 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,000 And thanks so much for your time. 637 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,000 Thank you. 638 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,000 Have a good one.