My name is Ed Ryan
I am the editor of the podcast business journal and this is the PBJ Spotlight where we interview a podcast host
Dig deep into their show and shine a light on how they become successful
So we can help other podcasters also become successful
If you'd like to be considered for the PBJ Spotlight send your show link and a short description of your program to Ed Ryan the editor
At gmail.com that's Ed Ryan the editor at gmail.com in the PBJ Spotlight on this episode
Who are these podcasts? It's a show hosted by Carl
He'd rather we did not use his last name because well his show is basically all about
Criticizing other podcasts and as you'll learn from our interview that turned ugly for him once in this quick clip Carl
Takes aim at former Howard Stern sidekick stuttering John that was that was a great moment though
He goes, I don't know why Joe Rogan wouldn't have me on his show
Have you seen the guests that Joe Rogan has on his show? They're like celebrities. You're stuttering John
You're a joke as of January 2020 Carl has recorded
187 episodes and has about
260 paying patreon followers. He started the show four years ago
Here's our interview with Carl from who are these podcasts and the first question Carl is who is Carl?
Hey, thanks so much for having me on the show. So I am a musician and
I was in a lot of comedy joke bands over the years and I'm a huge passionate fan of talk radio
I got to go on a lot of talk shows being a musician
So I got to see the inner workings huge fan of Opie and Anthony and Don and Mike and Howard Stern
growing up sports talk overnight radio and
so took all of
That experience and built it into the podcast who are these podcasts?
So when and why did you start this podcast called who are these podcasts and then we'll get into exactly what it's about
When and why did you decide to launch it?
We started it four years ago and it wasn't my idea to start a podcast. It was my friend Kevin's
He wanted to start one. I had the idea for the format. So then we decided well, let's just see what happens
We started recording some shows that we never released just to see if they were gonna be any good or not
We started getting on a weekly schedule
Eventually, we put one together. I said, oh, this isn't that bad
maybe we should start uploading these and putting it out and
Really Kevin was doing all of the legwork. He built the website. He figured out the
RSS he did everything that we needed to do to get it up in all the different channels
And I was just kind of along for the ride. So that's how it that's how it started
So tell us about your setup when you when you do the show
What do you have in front of you equipment wise and who do you use to host all the details to get the show out?
Sure. I have a blue Yeti that I use it's just directly into the USB
I'm using a loop back in order to make sure that I'm pulling in all the different channels because
When I'm recording I have a soundboard that I play all my audio clips off of
Typically on discord bringing somebody in through that. I'll bring someone in through Skype
Sometimes I'll have someone live with me in the studio. There's a lot of different sources
I might go right to YouTube and start playing some things
So I want to make sure that everything is coming down and being recorded. So I use the loop back for that
I don't have a mixing board. Everything is on the fly and then it's a lot of post-production
The way that we record the show and you know, sometimes it's a little hit or miss and I'm still learning as I go
So how did you come up with the concept? Tell us about what the show's about
We do a review show which is really a roast style podcast where we pull in clips. It's based on
A jocktober segment that Opie and Anthony used to do where they would pick on other morning shows and they pull specific clips out
And just kind of riff on whatever they were doing that was ridiculous. So I've done the Mike O'Mara show
I've done Opie radio quite a bit
We just did hey Todd the Todd Pettengill
Podcast that he's doing and the thing that I've discovered is that these ex radio jocks are really bad at podcasting
They don't understand how to record them and I think that's one of the things when I pulled in the Todd Pettengill
Show into my software and I could just see that the waveforms were all over the place. He would do a
Phone scam which is his prank call segment, which was probably
10 DBs lower than when he's just talking with an audio bed behind him and it's very difficult to listen to a show where
They've done no compression. No
Normalizing it's like all over the place as far as the levels go and
we had Eric Nagel on who was a longtime producer of the Opie and Anthony show and
Eric Nagel said yeah
It's amazing these radio guys don't know anything about actually
Recording or any of the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on in order to put a show out that sounds decent
So they think that that's all the easy stuff like oh, I'm the personality
I can I can do this and then they get on and put out a pretty awful product in a lot of cases
Well, you know, it's funny you say that about radio because I was turned on to your show from a radio host
Who loves your show ever you have any idea who it is? Oh, I I don't it's Drew Lane who from the Drew and Mike show
He does it's a podcast now
He's a former radio guy with a very successful a podcast the Drew and Mike podcast
Mike is no longer alive, but he still calls it that so Drew turned me on to your show
I listened to the Todd show that you did and
But his show is very successful and he loves your show and I think you're right about that
Just because you do a radio show doesn't mean that you can do a successful podcast and there are a lot of bad ones out there
But his is is excellent
They really I think if you listen to that one, you'll see the difference in somebody that understands the medium
Compared to some that just think that they can easily transfer over. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that to Drew
Thanks so much for spreading the word. That's amazing
So how do you choose which show you're going to?
Review and criticize and talk about and do any of the shows wind up being positive. Okay, both great questions
How we choose them is people send in suggestions now in the beginning
it was more of looking through iTunes and kind of picking out something that looked interesting and I'd give things a
Listen for a little while. Okay. I think I could have an angle on this and and pick it now. I have a
document where I put in all the suggestions that come in and the document is about 80 pages of suggestions and I I just
Continue to build on that and people will make a case for specific podcasts
Ones I've never heard of that sound interesting. I'm like, alright, that sounds cool
I'll check that out and then we'll end up reviewing it or a lot of times if it's a more popular
Podcast like a deck shepherd or something like that. I'll say yeah, we should definitely review this because
Everyone's listening to it. So it makes sense that we'd put a show out even just from an SEO perspective
It makes sense that we would want when someone's googling deck shepherds podcast
You'd want who are these podcasts showing up somewhere on that first page of Google?
So a lot of times what we choose to review is based on what's really popular
There's a show called call her daddy
Which is a bar stool sports show with these these two young women who just talk about sex
And it's the worst thing ever. It's the worst podcast and every time I go on to iTunes. It's right at the very top
It's like the most listen to show and I'm sure it's all 12 year old boys
But still when you see something that's really bad and it's a lot of people listening to it
That's where I'm definitely I'd have to review those types of shows
as far as if I've ever liked ones, yes, and
What's cool is that some of the shows that we've reviewed?
we've said negative and positive things and the hosts of those shows get it and
They appreciate the roast that style comedy that we do and now they're part of our show
So for example, Dick Masterson from the dick show was a show that I reviewed
And I didn't know all of the backstory is one of those shows where you have to know all these things that happened over the years
To really get into it. I just listened to a random episode, but I could tell there was something to it
I'm like, oh, this is actually pretty funny. I like this and now
Dick comes on my show. I go on his show a lot. We actually just started up a crossover show. We're doing bonus episodes for patreon
Where it's the dick show who are these podcasts crossover?
Also, kya orson from the official podcast comes on all the time and he has a huge show
But he really appreciated what we did. So it's worked out well when we've had shows that were like, oh, this is interesting
I I kind of like what they're doing and then they end up coming on and being part of the show going forward
So Carl, what is the best way to get the show out there to get people to start listening to the show to market?
The show how did you do it? And what advice do you have for other podcasters to get their show out? It's almost impossible
It nobody wants to listen to yet another podcast
So you have to have some type of angle
One of the things that I rail on quite a bit when i'm talking about people's podcasts is
There's a lot of open micers who think they can just hang out with their friends and shoot the shit
And that that's going to be interesting content that people are going to want to listen to
You have to create a quality product and I think the way to do that
Is to have some type of format something that's unique about your show. I think
One of the reasons why our show is caught on is not because i'm all that compelling
But because the format of the show lends itself to a very entertaining listen
You are immediately no matter which episode you pick you immediately understand what we're doing
And why we're doing it and how it's all working. You don't have to have listened to 80 hours
To understand why episode 118 is interesting
So that's part of it is to have something that anybody who stumbles upon it in a one-off
Might find it compelling and interesting
I find that a lot of these podcasts you start to review them and they already have
Their own vernacular and they're using acronyms or they're talking about these references that you don't know what they are
And it doesn't invite new listeners when you do that. It makes it very difficult for people to get into your show
So that's been one of the things that we found success with is no matter which episode you listen to
You're like okay, I get this and then I see a ton of people who discover us and then go back and check out the back catalog
Because it doesn't matter what order you listen to the stuff in it all makes sense
But the way that we caught on was very fortunate
Opie and anthony had a falling out and opi does his show and anthony does his show and they hate each other now
We did a review of opi's at the time new podcast opi radio
and we did a review just like we always do and and put it out just like we always do and
Somebody picked up on it created a youtube video put it out on youtube and it was
Like pretty much overnight the thing got a hundred thousand views and everybody started to discover
Who are these podcasts from that opi review and I listened to opi and anthony for years
So it was one that I knew a lot about and I had a lot to say on that one other podcast
I don't know anything about and so I say things that are dumb and people make fun of me
But this one I actually do what I was talking about. So it's a good episode people enjoyed it
And because of that anthony kumia picked up on the fact that we reviewed his show
Invited me to come down to new york and be a guest on his show
and so that really helped open us up and bring in a lot of uh new listeners and subscribers that come into the show
And how are you interacting with your with your listeners and your subscribers?
Before we get to the patreon account, how do you help?
Ask them to help you get the word out about the show. So you're always growing the numbers there
I don't really ask people to help us get the word out. I
Make it a point to respond to every single email that comes in
Every dm that comes in
And I just appreciate people for listening and caring. It's one thing I learned
early on and I actually learned this from dick masterson
Is he's grown a huge fan base of very loyal listeners?
Because he's very much involved in that community
So when people are talking about him in the subreddit, he'll pop in there and respond to it
And we have a discord server. We have the subreddit. We have twitter
We have twitter facebook
I'm always on these platforms and responding when I think it's appropriate
And acknowledging when people come in and they they offer a suggestion or they want to donate to the show or something like that
Making sure that i'm recognizing that because it's amazing that people actually want to participate, you know, I
I remember when we started this podcast and it was pretty much for
Kevin myself and a few of our friends to listen to it was not getting out there very much
So I really appreciate anyone who takes the time to listen to the podcast. There's 700,000 options out there
uh, so I just make sure to
communicate with everybody appreciate that they're listening and
Uh genuinely care that they're finding this entertaining. I take their suggestions
You know a lot of people will give me grief because it's kind of what i've set up. I'm i'm constantly
Uh making fun of people going after people for things. So of course i'm going to be a target quite a bit
We i'm very proud of the fact that we have over 600 one star reviews on itunes
We're one of the worst reviewed podcasts of all time
And it's because we go out there and we ruffle some feathers and get people upset
So that's one of the ways that we've spread the word is just by as
The listeners have built up like the reddit. I didn't create that our discord
I didn't create that as they kind of build these places. I just make sure that i'm participating and just being a part of that
How were you downloads every episode?
Well, they uh, they continue to grow
Um, it's been it's been awesome because we've never really had
uh a downward turn
as
The opi thing got picked up and then a couple months later
I was on anthony and then I started going on the dick show pretty regularly in the official podcast
Uh, it just continues to grow and grow and grow and one of the things that i've made a point to do is
When there's an opportunity to go on someone else's show regardless of the size of it. I've been trying to do that
Just to get on I know that for me having people who have bigger shows come on my show is a big deal
And so I I don't mind doing that
It was something that I was trying not to do at first and i'm like, you know what if someone asks me to be on the show
It's the least I could do is to spend a half an hour an hour with them and shoot the shit
So what kind of numbers are you getting every episode? We're doing about 10 000 downloads an episode at this point. Nice. Nice
So you have a you have a patreon account last time I checked you had uh, like 260-ish
Uh folks that support you with uh with money. You looks like you're making almost 1300 bucks a month on this
Are you making a living from the podcast yet? I am not and
It's definitely a hobby of mine
um, I still
Play music and play regularly in bands. I also am a partner at a marketing agency
So I keep very busy. I'm not looking for the podcast to be my uh,
My source of income how much time do you put in on the show each week?
So that is ridiculous. I put so I have to listen
It's so it's so much time. I have to listen to a podcast
and pull clips and make notes and
Then go on and review the podcast
And then the next day I go in and do all the post-production work and editing
And uploading so I am spending most of my weekend every weekend on the podcast which is very annoying for my wife
And then we've added even more work into it because now we're not just reviewing one podcast
We're typically reviewing a podcast plus checking in on opi or stuttering john
Or there's this guy patrick michael who puts out like 20 podcasts who I find fascinating
So we've been uh adding his show into the mix quite a bit
We've added new segments like cringe of the week people send me in
segments from other podcasts that they find cringe worthy so it just continues to get
More and more homework and work that goes into the show and have you ever had somebody uh,
Uh get really angry with you about your review. Oh, yes, I have
Yes, I have
All right, so
This is going back a few years
We reviewed a podcast called the vanished
And this is a a show that's hosted by a woman named marissa jones. You might know who she is
She's pretty big in in the podcasting world
So we did a review like we always do
Where we pulled clips from the show and we made jokes about it
I
Well first she went to itunes and asked them to take the show down for copyright infringement
iTunes denied the request
So then she went to libson our syndication company
And requested that they take it down and they said well you have to file a formal request and you have to go through these steps
And libson was really cool. They even called me up and said just so you know
There's a podcaster trying to take you guys down
We're not going to do it unless they actually have a case. We don't think they do
There is a fair use clause under the copyright act
Which allows anyone who's reviewing something to pull segments of it
So if you were doing a movie review or a book review
You could pull out segments of it for your review and you don't need to be the copyright owner
for that
so
marissa then
when well she reached out to me a few times and threatened lawsuits and things and
Basically, I said look at we're well within our rights here
You know, it's not a big deal. Honestly people where people hear your show than my show. I wouldn't worry about it
Well, she was very worried about it. She decided to
mobilize all of her listeners and went on twitter and her facebook group
And put together a very damning
YouTube video that took things out of context and made it seem like we were the worst people on earth. Meanwhile
She's dealing with kidnappers and people who are actually criminals on her show but decides that i'm the worst person on earth
Mobilizes all of her listeners to try to get me fired from my job and essentially ruin my life
Which is kind of a an act of violence in my opinion not a huge fan of that
So what happened was all of the sudden and I was I was flying out somewhere
So this all occurred when I was in the air and didn't have access to the internet
But they had tens of thousands of people
Tweeted my company go on linkedin
Reach out to anyone who worked there my business partners
And tell them that I should be let go from the job and i'm the worst person and all these things
Which is why you know
You asked me about my last name and I try not to give that out all that money
I don't know when the next job lynch mob is going to come for me, but
Fortunately
I am a partner at the company else. I definitely would have been fired and it definitely would have ruined my life
But what I decided to do was
I called a truce. I said, all right, this is now infringing on my real life, which is not what i'm trying to do here
I took the episode down
So it was episode number 88 which was when we reviewed the vanished and I said all right
Well, we will we'll take this down marissa you win. You got the job lynch mob after me and
My business partner wasn't happy about it. So it's like that's fine
Uh, so that's that show still is not on our feed to this day
uh because of that
That occurring did all of that help your show grow it
Uh essentially did we had
Before we took that down we had thousands and thousands of downloads of that episode now people were hateless
To it was all her fans listening to it. But obviously as you probably know, there's no such thing as bad publicity
And if you get a lot of new listeners, there's going to be some percentage of those people who go
Well, actually, I kind of like what these people are up to
And so that definitely helped springboard us to some degree
And what's worked out well in hindsight, which I wasn't planned at all
Is that now this episode 88 to people who have discovered our show
Since then is this thing that you can't get and it's wow
I wonder what happened on this show that was so bad
So now we've actually put that behind the paywall if you sign up for our patreon
You get a link to episode 88 and you can listen to it
So it's actually helped me from a marketing standpoint a little bit back to the patreon for a second
Do you feel under pressure to have a patreon following of uh, you know 260 ish folks that you have
to provide something to them because they're paying you for extra content or whatever you're giving them
If it's a you know, uh, uh gear or things like that
Do you feel pressure that you always have to have to come up with something to keep them satisfied?
So you don't you lose them as fans or lose their revenue?
100% and I was reluctant to start a patreon
I probably started a year too late
But I like I said, I put a lot of work into the podcast each episode takes hours and hours of my time
I'm also coordinating guest co-hosts every week and scheduling and I I have a guest host that comes on a lot
Uh who lives in uh, the midwest. I have one from la one in germany
Who's also in turkey from time to time so coordinating schedules and it's a lot of work. So
When I did the patreon, I said, okay, i'm gonna put out at least one bonfire
I said, okay, i'm gonna put out at least one bonus episode every single month
And so far we've done that
There's three bonus episodes that I have to kind of work and I don't want to take away from the weekly show
So I try to work that into the week at some point and what i've been doing is patreon will
Pull the monthly money out at the beginning of the month. So I make sure to get the bonus episode out
During that week or the week before so people remember like oh, yeah, that's right. I got something for this
I'll continue to donate my 10 bucks a month
But yeah, there's a lot of pressure and I do guarantee that there'll be a bonus episode
Every single month the nice part about it the thing that I've been pleasantly surprised by
because
The regular podcast is a lot of work and segments and production
I relax a lot more on the patreon episodes
I know that they're only being listened to by people who really enjoy the show
I don't have to win them over and so it's more of a relaxing kind of
You know, it's still the same format and we still go through and we review shows
But I don't make it such a point that it has to be
Very much segmented the way that the regular podcast is it's just more laid back and relaxed
Well, you've been doing this for four years now and you're consistent and you're putting shows out there and you're making some money at it
What advice do you have for anybody that's thinking about it? That's just getting started? Uh that you know, maybe
At episode number seven where we know they all turn back and say nobody's listening to uh to succeed at it
What do they what do they need to do in your opinion? I know that this is a cliche but perseverance is very important
You have to do it because you enjoy doing it not because you're trying to get a lot of listeners
If we had podcasted hoping to get thousands of listeners, I definitely would have quit before that happened
so
Hopefully if you're podcasting you're doing it for the right reasons because you enjoy doing it
And if people listen, that's more of a bonus than anything else
But and this is going to sound extremely pompous and i'm fine with that
I would this is my advice listen to who are these podcasts?
I can't tell you how many people have told me legitimately that listening to my show has made them a better podcaster
And it's a lot of people who we've made fun of but also just podcasters who become fans of the show
We give a lot of do's and don'ts
As we critique other podcasts a lot of things just like people talking over each other
You know things that if you came from radio you would know like the back of your hand
There's like very simple rules about how to do a show and how to broadcast the podcasters just don't know
They they've never learned these things
And we try to bring it back to here's how you do a professional show
Here's the prep work that should go into it. Here's what not to do
it's a lot of what not to do from the examples that we play but
Um, definitely I think we do a really good job of explaining how to put together a quality podcast
Even if we miss the mark from time to time
Uh, I think that we do a good job of explaining what people are doing wrong
You know, it's so funny. There is an atlanta, uh
Radio host that just uh lost his job
Uh station got sold change format
Whatever the reason was and he decided he was gonna there's three now in atlanta that are launching podcasts one already out there
Two that are starting right up
The first thing that he said in his kind of trailer episode was that he needed four to five thousand paid subscribers
To make the show work. That was the first thing he said and I said to myself
No way that show is ever going to work because people are not going to pay for something
Especially when you beg right at the beginning
Right, and I find that people do not
Have any problems supporting a show even if it's very successful
Uh dick show the dick show or even like a show like hometown
Where these guys are making tons of money and they're not asking for it
But they they literally almost never mentioned their patreon
I know that dick masterson throws it out at the very end of his show come town never talks about it
You're better off not asking for money putting out a quality product that people like and then they want to support you
Then you don't have to ask them over and over again. They're like, oh, I really enjoy what these people are doing
They go on patreon. They see that they're making six figures just from doing their show and they're like that's fine
I want to support them. I also want to contribute to this thing
So that would be my advice when we started the patreon. It was you know, like I said
I was a little bit reluctant to do it
But uh, but now that we're doing it, I I think it's um, you know
It's only grown and I think it'll continue to
Right and once you have a patreon you really got to work it
you got to I mean you got to work hard to to maintain the page maintain the information because like
We're talking about before there is a little bit of pressure to make sure those people feel like they're getting something even though
It's you know, it might only be five dollars. It's still five dollars. He could be spending somewhere else
So carl where can people find you get in touch with you listen to the show contact you?
Suggest their show for you to listen to give us all the info
All right. I always say at the beginning of the show just go to who are these.com
On our website if you go to the contact and about pages, you'll find links to everything that we do
You'll be able to find our email. There's a form on there that you can get in touch with us directly
the facebook twitter the discord server patreon
The one thing that we don't have is an instagram page
But one of the podcasts that we made fun of last year or two years ago now, I guess
I got very butthurt about what we said about them and they started an instagram page for us
So if you go on instagram, you will find who are these podcasts on there. I do not control that
I have nothing to do with it
So don't follow that thinking that you're following our show
Well carl, thanks for coming on appreciate it very much
Thanks for having me in