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My name is Ed Ryan

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I am the editor of the podcast business journal and this is the PBJ Spotlight where we interview a podcast host

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Dig deep into their show and shine a light on how they become successful

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So we can help other podcasters also become successful

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If you'd like to be considered for the PBJ Spotlight send your show link and a short description of your program to Ed Ryan the editor

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At gmail.com that's Ed Ryan the editor at gmail.com in the PBJ Spotlight on this episode

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Who are these podcasts? It's a show hosted by Carl

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He'd rather we did not use his last name because well his show is basically all about

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Criticizing other podcasts and as you'll learn from our interview that turned ugly for him once in this quick clip Carl

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Takes aim at former Howard Stern sidekick stuttering John that was that was a great moment though

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He goes, I don't know why Joe Rogan wouldn't have me on his show

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Have you seen the guests that Joe Rogan has on his show? They're like celebrities. You're stuttering John

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You're a joke as of January 2020 Carl has recorded

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187 episodes and has about

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260 paying patreon followers. He started the show four years ago

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Here's our interview with Carl from who are these podcasts and the first question Carl is who is Carl?

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Hey, thanks so much for having me on the show. So I am a musician and

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I was in a lot of comedy joke bands over the years and I'm a huge passionate fan of talk radio

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I got to go on a lot of talk shows being a musician

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So I got to see the inner workings huge fan of Opie and Anthony and Don and Mike and Howard Stern

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growing up sports talk overnight radio and

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so took all of

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That experience and built it into the podcast who are these podcasts?

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So when and why did you start this podcast called who are these podcasts and then we'll get into exactly what it's about

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When and why did you decide to launch it?

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We started it four years ago and it wasn't my idea to start a podcast. It was my friend Kevin's

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He wanted to start one. I had the idea for the format. So then we decided well, let's just see what happens

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We started recording some shows that we never released just to see if they were gonna be any good or not

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We started getting on a weekly schedule

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Eventually, we put one together. I said, oh, this isn't that bad

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maybe we should start uploading these and putting it out and

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Really Kevin was doing all of the legwork. He built the website. He figured out the

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RSS he did everything that we needed to do to get it up in all the different channels

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And I was just kind of along for the ride. So that's how it that's how it started

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So tell us about your setup when you when you do the show

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What do you have in front of you equipment wise and who do you use to host all the details to get the show out?

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Sure. I have a blue Yeti that I use it's just directly into the USB

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I'm using a loop back in order to make sure that I'm pulling in all the different channels because

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When I'm recording I have a soundboard that I play all my audio clips off of

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Typically on discord bringing somebody in through that. I'll bring someone in through Skype

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Sometimes I'll have someone live with me in the studio. There's a lot of different sources

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I might go right to YouTube and start playing some things

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So I want to make sure that everything is coming down and being recorded. So I use the loop back for that

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I don't have a mixing board. Everything is on the fly and then it's a lot of post-production

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The way that we record the show and you know, sometimes it's a little hit or miss and I'm still learning as I go

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So how did you come up with the concept? Tell us about what the show's about

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We do a review show which is really a roast style podcast where we pull in clips. It's based on

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A jocktober segment that Opie and Anthony used to do where they would pick on other morning shows and they pull specific clips out

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And just kind of riff on whatever they were doing that was ridiculous. So I've done the Mike O'Mara show

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I've done Opie radio quite a bit

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We just did hey Todd the Todd Pettengill

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Podcast that he's doing and the thing that I've discovered is that these ex radio jocks are really bad at podcasting

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They don't understand how to record them and I think that's one of the things when I pulled in the Todd Pettengill

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Show into my software and I could just see that the waveforms were all over the place. He would do a

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Phone scam which is his prank call segment, which was probably

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10 DBs lower than when he's just talking with an audio bed behind him and it's very difficult to listen to a show where

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They've done no compression. No

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Normalizing it's like all over the place as far as the levels go and

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we had Eric Nagel on who was a longtime producer of the Opie and Anthony show and

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Eric Nagel said yeah

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It's amazing these radio guys don't know anything about actually

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Recording or any of the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on in order to put a show out that sounds decent

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So they think that that's all the easy stuff like oh, I'm the personality

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I can I can do this and then they get on and put out a pretty awful product in a lot of cases

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Well, you know, it's funny you say that about radio because I was turned on to your show from a radio host

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Who loves your show ever you have any idea who it is? Oh, I I don't it's Drew Lane who from the Drew and Mike show

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He does it's a podcast now

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He's a former radio guy with a very successful a podcast the Drew and Mike podcast

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Mike is no longer alive, but he still calls it that so Drew turned me on to your show

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I listened to the Todd show that you did and

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But his show is very successful and he loves your show and I think you're right about that

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Just because you do a radio show doesn't mean that you can do a successful podcast and there are a lot of bad ones out there

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But his is is excellent

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They really I think if you listen to that one, you'll see the difference in somebody that understands the medium

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Compared to some that just think that they can easily transfer over. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that to Drew

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Thanks so much for spreading the word. That's amazing

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So how do you choose which show you're going to?

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Review and criticize and talk about and do any of the shows wind up being positive. Okay, both great questions

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How we choose them is people send in suggestions now in the beginning

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it was more of looking through iTunes and kind of picking out something that looked interesting and I'd give things a

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Listen for a little while. Okay. I think I could have an angle on this and and pick it now. I have a

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document where I put in all the suggestions that come in and the document is about 80 pages of suggestions and I I just

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Continue to build on that and people will make a case for specific podcasts

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Ones I've never heard of that sound interesting. I'm like, alright, that sounds cool

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I'll check that out and then we'll end up reviewing it or a lot of times if it's a more popular

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Podcast like a deck shepherd or something like that. I'll say yeah, we should definitely review this because

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Everyone's listening to it. So it makes sense that we'd put a show out even just from an SEO perspective

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It makes sense that we would want when someone's googling deck shepherds podcast

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You'd want who are these podcasts showing up somewhere on that first page of Google?

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So a lot of times what we choose to review is based on what's really popular

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There's a show called call her daddy

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Which is a bar stool sports show with these these two young women who just talk about sex

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And it's the worst thing ever. It's the worst podcast and every time I go on to iTunes. It's right at the very top

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It's like the most listen to show and I'm sure it's all 12 year old boys

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But still when you see something that's really bad and it's a lot of people listening to it

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That's where I'm definitely I'd have to review those types of shows

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as far as if I've ever liked ones, yes, and

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What's cool is that some of the shows that we've reviewed?

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we've said negative and positive things and the hosts of those shows get it and

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They appreciate the roast that style comedy that we do and now they're part of our show

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So for example, Dick Masterson from the dick show was a show that I reviewed

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And I didn't know all of the backstory is one of those shows where you have to know all these things that happened over the years

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To really get into it. I just listened to a random episode, but I could tell there was something to it

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I'm like, oh, this is actually pretty funny. I like this and now

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Dick comes on my show. I go on his show a lot. We actually just started up a crossover show. We're doing bonus episodes for patreon

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Where it's the dick show who are these podcasts crossover?

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Also, kya orson from the official podcast comes on all the time and he has a huge show

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But he really appreciated what we did. So it's worked out well when we've had shows that were like, oh, this is interesting

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I I kind of like what they're doing and then they end up coming on and being part of the show going forward

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So Carl, what is the best way to get the show out there to get people to start listening to the show to market?

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The show how did you do it? And what advice do you have for other podcasters to get their show out? It's almost impossible

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It nobody wants to listen to yet another podcast

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So you have to have some type of angle

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One of the things that I rail on quite a bit when i'm talking about people's podcasts is

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There's a lot of open micers who think they can just hang out with their friends and shoot the shit

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And that that's going to be interesting content that people are going to want to listen to

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You have to create a quality product and I think the way to do that

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Is to have some type of format something that's unique about your show. I think

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One of the reasons why our show is caught on is not because i'm all that compelling

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But because the format of the show lends itself to a very entertaining listen

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You are immediately no matter which episode you pick you immediately understand what we're doing

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And why we're doing it and how it's all working. You don't have to have listened to 80 hours

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To understand why episode 118 is interesting

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So that's part of it is to have something that anybody who stumbles upon it in a one-off

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Might find it compelling and interesting

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I find that a lot of these podcasts you start to review them and they already have

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Their own vernacular and they're using acronyms or they're talking about these references that you don't know what they are

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And it doesn't invite new listeners when you do that. It makes it very difficult for people to get into your show

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So that's been one of the things that we found success with is no matter which episode you listen to

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You're like okay, I get this and then I see a ton of people who discover us and then go back and check out the back catalog

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Because it doesn't matter what order you listen to the stuff in it all makes sense

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But the way that we caught on was very fortunate

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Opie and anthony had a falling out and opi does his show and anthony does his show and they hate each other now

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We did a review of opi's at the time new podcast opi radio

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and we did a review just like we always do and and put it out just like we always do and

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Somebody picked up on it created a youtube video put it out on youtube and it was

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Like pretty much overnight the thing got a hundred thousand views and everybody started to discover

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Who are these podcasts from that opi review and I listened to opi and anthony for years

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So it was one that I knew a lot about and I had a lot to say on that one other podcast

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I don't know anything about and so I say things that are dumb and people make fun of me

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But this one I actually do what I was talking about. So it's a good episode people enjoyed it

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And because of that anthony kumia picked up on the fact that we reviewed his show

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Invited me to come down to new york and be a guest on his show

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and so that really helped open us up and bring in a lot of uh new listeners and subscribers that come into the show

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And how are you interacting with your with your listeners and your subscribers?

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Before we get to the patreon account, how do you help?

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Ask them to help you get the word out about the show. So you're always growing the numbers there

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I don't really ask people to help us get the word out. I

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Make it a point to respond to every single email that comes in

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Every dm that comes in

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And I just appreciate people for listening and caring. It's one thing I learned

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early on and I actually learned this from dick masterson

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Is he's grown a huge fan base of very loyal listeners?

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Because he's very much involved in that community

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So when people are talking about him in the subreddit, he'll pop in there and respond to it

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And we have a discord server. We have the subreddit. We have twitter

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We have twitter facebook

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I'm always on these platforms and responding when I think it's appropriate

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And acknowledging when people come in and they they offer a suggestion or they want to donate to the show or something like that

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Making sure that i'm recognizing that because it's amazing that people actually want to participate, you know, I

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I remember when we started this podcast and it was pretty much for

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Kevin myself and a few of our friends to listen to it was not getting out there very much

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So I really appreciate anyone who takes the time to listen to the podcast. There's 700,000 options out there

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uh, so I just make sure to

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communicate with everybody appreciate that they're listening and

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Uh genuinely care that they're finding this entertaining. I take their suggestions

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You know a lot of people will give me grief because it's kind of what i've set up. I'm i'm constantly

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Uh making fun of people going after people for things. So of course i'm going to be a target quite a bit

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We i'm very proud of the fact that we have over 600 one star reviews on itunes

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We're one of the worst reviewed podcasts of all time

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And it's because we go out there and we ruffle some feathers and get people upset

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So that's one of the ways that we've spread the word is just by as

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The listeners have built up like the reddit. I didn't create that our discord

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I didn't create that as they kind of build these places. I just make sure that i'm participating and just being a part of that

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How were you downloads every episode?

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Well, they uh, they continue to grow

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Um, it's been it's been awesome because we've never really had

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uh a downward turn

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as

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The opi thing got picked up and then a couple months later

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I was on anthony and then I started going on the dick show pretty regularly in the official podcast

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Uh, it just continues to grow and grow and grow and one of the things that i've made a point to do is

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When there's an opportunity to go on someone else's show regardless of the size of it. I've been trying to do that

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Just to get on I know that for me having people who have bigger shows come on my show is a big deal

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And so I I don't mind doing that

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It was something that I was trying not to do at first and i'm like, you know what if someone asks me to be on the show

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It's the least I could do is to spend a half an hour an hour with them and shoot the shit

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So what kind of numbers are you getting every episode? We're doing about 10 000 downloads an episode at this point. Nice. Nice

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So you have a you have a patreon account last time I checked you had uh, like 260-ish

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Uh folks that support you with uh with money. You looks like you're making almost 1300 bucks a month on this

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Are you making a living from the podcast yet? I am not and

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It's definitely a hobby of mine

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um, I still

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Play music and play regularly in bands. I also am a partner at a marketing agency

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So I keep very busy. I'm not looking for the podcast to be my uh,

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My source of income how much time do you put in on the show each week?

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So that is ridiculous. I put so I have to listen

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It's so it's so much time. I have to listen to a podcast

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and pull clips and make notes and

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Then go on and review the podcast

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And then the next day I go in and do all the post-production work and editing

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And uploading so I am spending most of my weekend every weekend on the podcast which is very annoying for my wife

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And then we've added even more work into it because now we're not just reviewing one podcast

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We're typically reviewing a podcast plus checking in on opi or stuttering john

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Or there's this guy patrick michael who puts out like 20 podcasts who I find fascinating

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So we've been uh adding his show into the mix quite a bit

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We've added new segments like cringe of the week people send me in

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segments from other podcasts that they find cringe worthy so it just continues to get

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More and more homework and work that goes into the show and have you ever had somebody uh,

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Uh get really angry with you about your review. Oh, yes, I have

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Yes, I have

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All right, so

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This is going back a few years

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We reviewed a podcast called the vanished

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And this is a a show that's hosted by a woman named marissa jones. You might know who she is

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She's pretty big in in the podcasting world

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So we did a review like we always do

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Where we pulled clips from the show and we made jokes about it

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I

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Well first she went to itunes and asked them to take the show down for copyright infringement

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iTunes denied the request

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So then she went to libson our syndication company

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And requested that they take it down and they said well you have to file a formal request and you have to go through these steps

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And libson was really cool. They even called me up and said just so you know

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There's a podcaster trying to take you guys down

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We're not going to do it unless they actually have a case. We don't think they do

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There is a fair use clause under the copyright act

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Which allows anyone who's reviewing something to pull segments of it

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So if you were doing a movie review or a book review

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You could pull out segments of it for your review and you don't need to be the copyright owner

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for that

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so

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marissa then

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when well she reached out to me a few times and threatened lawsuits and things and

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Basically, I said look at we're well within our rights here

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You know, it's not a big deal. Honestly people where people hear your show than my show. I wouldn't worry about it

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Well, she was very worried about it. She decided to

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mobilize all of her listeners and went on twitter and her facebook group

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And put together a very damning

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YouTube video that took things out of context and made it seem like we were the worst people on earth. Meanwhile

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She's dealing with kidnappers and people who are actually criminals on her show but decides that i'm the worst person on earth

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Mobilizes all of her listeners to try to get me fired from my job and essentially ruin my life

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Which is kind of a an act of violence in my opinion not a huge fan of that

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So what happened was all of the sudden and I was I was flying out somewhere

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So this all occurred when I was in the air and didn't have access to the internet

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But they had tens of thousands of people

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Tweeted my company go on linkedin

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Reach out to anyone who worked there my business partners

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And tell them that I should be let go from the job and i'm the worst person and all these things

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Which is why you know

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You asked me about my last name and I try not to give that out all that money

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I don't know when the next job lynch mob is going to come for me, but

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Fortunately

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I am a partner at the company else. I definitely would have been fired and it definitely would have ruined my life

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But what I decided to do was

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I called a truce. I said, all right, this is now infringing on my real life, which is not what i'm trying to do here

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I took the episode down

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So it was episode number 88 which was when we reviewed the vanished and I said all right

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Well, we will we'll take this down marissa you win. You got the job lynch mob after me and

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My business partner wasn't happy about it. So it's like that's fine

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Uh, so that's that show still is not on our feed to this day

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uh because of that

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That occurring did all of that help your show grow it

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Uh essentially did we had

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Before we took that down we had thousands and thousands of downloads of that episode now people were hateless

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To it was all her fans listening to it. But obviously as you probably know, there's no such thing as bad publicity

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And if you get a lot of new listeners, there's going to be some percentage of those people who go

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Well, actually, I kind of like what these people are up to

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And so that definitely helped springboard us to some degree

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And what's worked out well in hindsight, which I wasn't planned at all

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Is that now this episode 88 to people who have discovered our show

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Since then is this thing that you can't get and it's wow

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I wonder what happened on this show that was so bad

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So now we've actually put that behind the paywall if you sign up for our patreon

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You get a link to episode 88 and you can listen to it

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So it's actually helped me from a marketing standpoint a little bit back to the patreon for a second

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Do you feel under pressure to have a patreon following of uh, you know 260 ish folks that you have

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to provide something to them because they're paying you for extra content or whatever you're giving them

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If it's a you know, uh, uh gear or things like that

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Do you feel pressure that you always have to have to come up with something to keep them satisfied?

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So you don't you lose them as fans or lose their revenue?

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100% and I was reluctant to start a patreon

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I probably started a year too late

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But I like I said, I put a lot of work into the podcast each episode takes hours and hours of my time

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I'm also coordinating guest co-hosts every week and scheduling and I I have a guest host that comes on a lot

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Uh who lives in uh, the midwest. I have one from la one in germany

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Who's also in turkey from time to time so coordinating schedules and it's a lot of work. So

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When I did the patreon, I said, okay, i'm gonna put out at least one bonfire

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I said, okay, i'm gonna put out at least one bonus episode every single month

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And so far we've done that

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There's three bonus episodes that I have to kind of work and I don't want to take away from the weekly show

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So I try to work that into the week at some point and what i've been doing is patreon will

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Pull the monthly money out at the beginning of the month. So I make sure to get the bonus episode out

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During that week or the week before so people remember like oh, yeah, that's right. I got something for this

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I'll continue to donate my 10 bucks a month

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But yeah, there's a lot of pressure and I do guarantee that there'll be a bonus episode

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Every single month the nice part about it the thing that I've been pleasantly surprised by

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because

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The regular podcast is a lot of work and segments and production

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I relax a lot more on the patreon episodes

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I know that they're only being listened to by people who really enjoy the show

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I don't have to win them over and so it's more of a relaxing kind of

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You know, it's still the same format and we still go through and we review shows

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But I don't make it such a point that it has to be

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Very much segmented the way that the regular podcast is it's just more laid back and relaxed

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Well, you've been doing this for four years now and you're consistent and you're putting shows out there and you're making some money at it

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What advice do you have for anybody that's thinking about it? That's just getting started? Uh that you know, maybe

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At episode number seven where we know they all turn back and say nobody's listening to uh to succeed at it

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What do they what do they need to do in your opinion? I know that this is a cliche but perseverance is very important

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You have to do it because you enjoy doing it not because you're trying to get a lot of listeners

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If we had podcasted hoping to get thousands of listeners, I definitely would have quit before that happened

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so

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Hopefully if you're podcasting you're doing it for the right reasons because you enjoy doing it

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And if people listen, that's more of a bonus than anything else

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But and this is going to sound extremely pompous and i'm fine with that

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I would this is my advice listen to who are these podcasts?

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I can't tell you how many people have told me legitimately that listening to my show has made them a better podcaster

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And it's a lot of people who we've made fun of but also just podcasters who become fans of the show

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We give a lot of do's and don'ts

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As we critique other podcasts a lot of things just like people talking over each other

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You know things that if you came from radio you would know like the back of your hand

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There's like very simple rules about how to do a show and how to broadcast the podcasters just don't know

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They they've never learned these things

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And we try to bring it back to here's how you do a professional show

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Here's the prep work that should go into it. Here's what not to do

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it's a lot of what not to do from the examples that we play but

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Um, definitely I think we do a really good job of explaining how to put together a quality podcast

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Even if we miss the mark from time to time

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Uh, I think that we do a good job of explaining what people are doing wrong

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You know, it's so funny. There is an atlanta, uh

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Radio host that just uh lost his job

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Uh station got sold change format

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Whatever the reason was and he decided he was gonna there's three now in atlanta that are launching podcasts one already out there

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Two that are starting right up

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The first thing that he said in his kind of trailer episode was that he needed four to five thousand paid subscribers

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To make the show work. That was the first thing he said and I said to myself

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No way that show is ever going to work because people are not going to pay for something

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Especially when you beg right at the beginning

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Right, and I find that people do not

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Have any problems supporting a show even if it's very successful

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Uh dick show the dick show or even like a show like hometown

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Where these guys are making tons of money and they're not asking for it

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But they they literally almost never mentioned their patreon

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I know that dick masterson throws it out at the very end of his show come town never talks about it

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You're better off not asking for money putting out a quality product that people like and then they want to support you

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Then you don't have to ask them over and over again. They're like, oh, I really enjoy what these people are doing

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They go on patreon. They see that they're making six figures just from doing their show and they're like that's fine

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I want to support them. I also want to contribute to this thing

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So that would be my advice when we started the patreon. It was you know, like I said

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I was a little bit reluctant to do it

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But uh, but now that we're doing it, I I think it's um, you know

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It's only grown and I think it'll continue to

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Right and once you have a patreon you really got to work it

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you got to I mean you got to work hard to to maintain the page maintain the information because like

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We're talking about before there is a little bit of pressure to make sure those people feel like they're getting something even though

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It's you know, it might only be five dollars. It's still five dollars. He could be spending somewhere else

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So carl where can people find you get in touch with you listen to the show contact you?

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Suggest their show for you to listen to give us all the info

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All right. I always say at the beginning of the show just go to who are these.com

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On our website if you go to the contact and about pages, you'll find links to everything that we do

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You'll be able to find our email. There's a form on there that you can get in touch with us directly

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the facebook twitter the discord server patreon

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The one thing that we don't have is an instagram page

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But one of the podcasts that we made fun of last year or two years ago now, I guess

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I got very butthurt about what we said about them and they started an instagram page for us

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So if you go on instagram, you will find who are these podcasts on there. I do not control that

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I have nothing to do with it

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So don't follow that thinking that you're following our show

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Well carl, thanks for coming on appreciate it very much

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Thanks for having me in