WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.899 Steve, you did about five years at Sony. You've 00:00:02.899 --> 00:00:05.719 just left. I had a really weird thought. The 00:00:05.719 --> 00:00:08.339 industry is about to go gangbusters, it feels 00:00:08.339 --> 00:00:11.539 like, in 2026. Why leave Sony right now? That's 00:00:11.539 --> 00:00:13.859 a great question because you're right. I think 00:00:13.859 --> 00:00:16.559 things are about to hit another really fantastic 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:18.899 moment. It was a really personal decision and 00:00:18.899 --> 00:00:21.399 actually a lot of it really was personal because 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:23.059 I was living in the States. I've got three adult 00:00:23.059 --> 00:00:25.379 kids there in London. So that was obviously a 00:00:25.379 --> 00:00:28.350 big... driver really and look I had an amazing 00:00:28.350 --> 00:00:30.390 time at Sony Music it's full of amazing people 00:00:30.390 --> 00:00:33.250 I've not got a bad word to say about them but 00:00:33.250 --> 00:00:36.030 equally I spent 20 years being my own boss and 00:00:36.030 --> 00:00:37.990 I felt it was time to get back properly to just 00:00:37.990 --> 00:00:39.979 being a bit more in charge of myself. Now, I 00:00:39.979 --> 00:00:42.079 understand that for personal reasons. Now, what 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:43.859 are you doing with yourself at the moment? I 00:00:43.859 --> 00:00:45.679 think you've already encapsulated it. I'm really 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:47.740 acting as a board advisor to a bunch of businesses 00:00:47.740 --> 00:00:50.579 and a consultant. So I'm working with lots of 00:00:50.579 --> 00:00:52.880 different folks, both in the US and the UK, but 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:55.240 really helping different businesses grow or take 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:57.079 on different business challenges. You've got 00:00:57.079 --> 00:01:00.240 a bit of an exclusive for us. Yeah, well, just 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:02.280 through serendipity of when we're recording this, 00:01:02.420 --> 00:01:04.659 it is now being announced that I'm joining the 00:01:04.659 --> 00:01:06.959 board, as in the company board of the podcast 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:09.549 show. that much -loved event, and I'm going to 00:01:09.549 --> 00:01:11.870 be helping them grow as a business, both within 00:01:11.870 --> 00:01:14.790 the UK and around the world. It's that last bit 00:01:14.790 --> 00:01:18.349 you said, around the world. I will lay my cards 00:01:18.349 --> 00:01:20.549 down and say I'm a London boy. The London Podcast 00:01:20.549 --> 00:01:23.890 Show is a great show. I know Jason and Ferg have 00:01:23.890 --> 00:01:26.159 done an amazing job. pulling that all together 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.219 my big worry it matters not what i think is that 00:01:29.219 --> 00:01:31.760 it will water it down if we do the americans 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:33.859 won't come then we'll suddenly have just the 00:01:33.859 --> 00:01:35.920 brits in london the americans in america and 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:37.879 wherever else you are i worry that you're going 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:40.420 to take the magic of the london podcast show 00:01:40.420 --> 00:01:43.260 away well i think that's a really fair thing 00:01:43.260 --> 00:01:46.219 to raise and of course i think i I can speak 00:01:46.219 --> 00:01:47.859 on behalf of everyone at the podcast show when 00:01:47.859 --> 00:01:49.420 I say that's the last thing we want to happen 00:01:49.420 --> 00:01:51.040 to London. It's the jewel in the crown. It's 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:53.079 the flagship. But the world's a really big place. 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:56.719 And what's so exciting is our industry is becoming 00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:58.719 a bigger and bigger industry and is absolutely 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:01.620 a global industry. And so I think having events 00:02:01.620 --> 00:02:03.780 around the world that can continue the conversation 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:06.260 throughout the year and allow different folks 00:02:06.260 --> 00:02:08.620 to attend where maybe London is a long way to 00:02:08.620 --> 00:02:11.060 go or too expensive to go does throw open the 00:02:11.060 --> 00:02:13.620 opportunity to look at what else we can do. Jason 00:02:13.620 --> 00:02:15.759 and I have spoken to on numerous occasions who 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:18.259 runs the London Podcast Show, two areas that 00:02:18.259 --> 00:02:20.960 I've always wanted him to evolve into. Given 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:23.080 Jason's background with the BBC and given your 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:25.680 background as a radio DJ and somebody who loves 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:28.280 music, there isn't a whole area of independent 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.560 musicians who are using podcasting RSS fundamentally 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:34.419 to distribute their music. I would love there 00:02:34.419 --> 00:02:37.879 to be a way to get the musicians into that London 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:41.219 podcast show in some format, even if it's a panel, 00:02:41.340 --> 00:02:42.979 even if it's a discussion, because one of the 00:02:42.979 --> 00:02:46.039 things I find is the conversation will be video, 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.259 AI, monetisation, rinse and repeat, and there'll 00:02:49.259 --> 00:02:51.360 be everyone having their different spin on it, 00:02:51.379 --> 00:02:53.860 but that's where we are. There's a whole area 00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:56.159 around music, and given... Jason's background 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:58.620 at the BBC as well I wonder whether that could 00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:00.719 come into it now I'm throwing my wish list at 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:02.419 you just simply because you've announced it so 00:03:02.419 --> 00:03:04.180 I'm allowed to do that you don't have to answer 00:03:04.180 --> 00:03:06.199 any of this by the way but that's just me asking 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:08.479 well no I will answer because I think I'll say 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:10.800 that I think one thing that Jason Carter and 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:12.539 the team have just done so brilliantly over five 00:03:12.539 --> 00:03:14.439 years is the podcast show has continually evolved 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:16.560 I think anybody who was there for the first event 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:18.680 and has been in subsequent years would hopefully 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:20.729 agree with that And of course, it will continue 00:03:20.729 --> 00:03:22.310 to evolve. And that means hopefully you bring 00:03:22.310 --> 00:03:24.069 in more and more different constituencies. I 00:03:24.069 --> 00:03:26.409 think, for instance, one constituency who I would 00:03:26.409 --> 00:03:28.750 expect to attend more in numbers this year than 00:03:28.750 --> 00:03:30.990 in previous years are those related to the TV 00:03:30.990 --> 00:03:32.930 industry. Of course, because of everything that's 00:03:32.930 --> 00:03:34.370 happening in video, we wouldn't have expected 00:03:34.370 --> 00:03:36.129 to necessarily see them at the podcast show a 00:03:36.129 --> 00:03:38.030 few years ago. So I'm sure it will continue to 00:03:38.030 --> 00:03:39.750 evolve with other constituencies getting involved. 00:03:39.889 --> 00:03:42.490 And of course, if we can find a valid reason 00:03:42.490 --> 00:03:44.490 why the music industry should be there, then 00:03:44.490 --> 00:03:46.659 I think that would make sense. So let's move 00:03:46.659 --> 00:03:49.340 on then, given your background and the way that 00:03:49.340 --> 00:03:51.500 the podcast industry is moving towards video. 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:54.240 We've seen YouTube adopt the podcasting world. 00:03:54.340 --> 00:03:57.300 We've seen Spotify. We saw the exclusives within 00:03:57.300 --> 00:04:01.539 Spotify come and go. Where do you see video at 00:04:01.539 --> 00:04:04.560 the moment as a podcaster? Is that something 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:07.340 that you have to do? Is it a nice to do? Where 00:04:07.340 --> 00:04:10.340 are we? Well, first of all, I think we need to 00:04:10.340 --> 00:04:13.069 come at video with just great optimism. I'm a 00:04:13.069 --> 00:04:16.290 little bit sniffy about the folks who get agitated 00:04:16.290 --> 00:04:18.509 about video and argue about, well, is it a podcast 00:04:18.509 --> 00:04:21.009 or not? Frankly, who really cares? The point 00:04:21.009 --> 00:04:24.370 is, it's allowing podcasters to reach new audiences 00:04:24.370 --> 00:04:27.009 on other platforms. And certainly all the research 00:04:27.009 --> 00:04:29.910 I've seen shows that video does not cannibalize 00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:32.829 audio. It's additive. It finds new folk. And 00:04:32.829 --> 00:04:35.050 that can only be great for the industry. Do you 00:04:35.050 --> 00:04:37.730 have to have video? Not for every show. But I 00:04:37.730 --> 00:04:39.930 think certainly if I was starting a regular show 00:04:39.930 --> 00:04:42.329 now, a weekly show and always on show, I think 00:04:42.329 --> 00:04:44.230 you'd be pretty crazy not to be thinking about 00:04:44.230 --> 00:04:46.350 video. We've obviously got Spotify and YouTube 00:04:46.350 --> 00:04:49.170 in play. We know Apple's coming. In fact, the 00:04:49.170 --> 00:04:51.170 BBC, for those in the UK, have just announced 00:04:51.170 --> 00:04:53.310 today that they're extending what they do on 00:04:53.310 --> 00:04:54.689 the video side. And of course, it's going to 00:04:54.689 --> 00:04:56.769 keep on rolling out amongst other folks as well. 00:04:56.910 --> 00:04:59.629 So video has to be part of the ecosystem now. 00:04:59.769 --> 00:05:01.449 And it's a good thing it is. It's opening up 00:05:01.449 --> 00:05:03.230 new revenue streams. It's opening up new creative 00:05:03.230 --> 00:05:07.589 opportunities. Do you think Spotify's video entry 00:05:07.589 --> 00:05:09.949 has been successful. It's now been going for 00:05:09.949 --> 00:05:12.389 over 12 months. What's your take on it? I think 00:05:12.389 --> 00:05:16.189 it's been successful for those shows that are 00:05:16.189 --> 00:05:19.189 big enough to see a good return on revenue. I 00:05:19.189 --> 00:05:21.829 think the challenge with Spotify has been the 00:05:21.829 --> 00:05:23.649 mid -range, the lower -range shows. For some 00:05:23.649 --> 00:05:25.550 of those shows, it just doesn't make sense to 00:05:25.550 --> 00:05:29.910 put your show on video on Spotify. And I think 00:05:29.910 --> 00:05:32.430 the other potential challenge for Spotify is 00:05:32.430 --> 00:05:34.910 every 12 or 18 months there's a different strategy. 00:05:35.660 --> 00:05:37.920 And of course, that reflects the way the world's 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:40.519 changing very quickly as well. And I wouldn't 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:42.500 be surprised if on the video front, they have 00:05:42.500 --> 00:05:45.360 to make some adjustments again. And that's partly 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:47.279 because they were one of the first movers. And 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:49.579 so credit to them for that. But also because 00:05:49.579 --> 00:05:52.540 obviously, as we just mentioned, other platforms 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:54.959 are now evolving or doing other things. And that's 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:56.600 going to throw out questions for Spotify. So 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:58.839 has it been a success? Well, I think credit to 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:00.879 them for getting in there early and sort of forcing 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.240 the hand of other folks. But I think it depends 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:05.389 who you speak to. Some folks will say it's been 00:06:05.389 --> 00:06:07.389 really good for them and other folks will say 00:06:07.389 --> 00:06:10.050 it hasn't been so useful. Apple, they've just 00:06:10.050 --> 00:06:12.209 got into the video game. They've done it in a 00:06:12.209 --> 00:06:15.350 roundabout way. I think it's controlling the 00:06:15.350 --> 00:06:17.670 flow of video because they've gone to four partners. 00:06:17.709 --> 00:06:20.029 They're using an API. They're not using OpenRSS. 00:06:20.230 --> 00:06:23.149 What do you think Apple will do with this? Will 00:06:23.149 --> 00:06:24.949 it be a success or do you think this is going 00:06:24.949 --> 00:06:26.649 to be something that they dip their toes in and 00:06:26.649 --> 00:06:29.769 like Spotify sort of drift along? Well, I'm sure 00:06:29.769 --> 00:06:32.329 Apple are the same as most platforms. Of course, 00:06:32.350 --> 00:06:34.149 you want to look at what's the audience behavior 00:06:34.149 --> 00:06:36.529 and how is it impacting on the platform. I'm 00:06:36.529 --> 00:06:38.689 less bothered about the fact that a few partners 00:06:38.689 --> 00:06:40.329 are involved. First of all, they're big partners. 00:06:40.430 --> 00:06:42.509 They come with a lot of shows. And of course, 00:06:42.509 --> 00:06:44.269 you have to start somewhere. It's pretty difficult 00:06:44.269 --> 00:06:46.589 to roll something out immediately. But I think 00:06:46.589 --> 00:06:48.810 the Apple announcement is a really exciting one. 00:06:48.970 --> 00:06:51.529 First of all, the folks at Apple are really thoughtful. 00:06:51.949 --> 00:06:53.889 We shouldn't forget they've been supportive of 00:06:53.889 --> 00:06:55.990 the podcast industry for a long time, and they 00:06:55.990 --> 00:06:58.050 should get some credit for that. And on the video 00:06:58.050 --> 00:07:00.480 side, i think what they've announced is really 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:02.699 exciting especially because they're going to 00:07:02.699 --> 00:07:05.060 allow dynamic ad insertion and i think that's 00:07:05.060 --> 00:07:07.560 a really important development you know youtube 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:08.939 announced that last year they haven't announced 00:07:08.939 --> 00:07:10.360 when that's rolling out but i think that's a 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:12.060 really important development because ultimately 00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:14.100 i do think that can be a revenue game changer 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:17.240 at the moment unless you really have huge amounts 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.160 of views on youtube it's not a fantastic monetization 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:22.139 channel it's fantastic for getting views and 00:07:22.139 --> 00:07:24.850 marketing your show not fantastic way to make 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:27.170 money if you're a medium or small size show which 00:07:27.170 --> 00:07:29.149 of course the majority of the shows are i think 00:07:29.149 --> 00:07:31.189 what apple are offering that chance for you to 00:07:31.189 --> 00:07:33.970 sell your own ads into video and to really maximize 00:07:33.970 --> 00:07:35.610 that inventory because of course you can have 00:07:35.610 --> 00:07:37.050 different ads in different territories or you 00:07:37.050 --> 00:07:38.529 can take an ad out and replace it with another 00:07:38.529 --> 00:07:40.310 one after a few months i think that's a really 00:07:40.310 --> 00:07:42.370 big move and i'm looking forward to hopefully 00:07:42.370 --> 00:07:43.990 when youtube announced the date when they'll 00:07:43.990 --> 00:07:46.740 start doing that as well Spotify have a totally 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:48.980 different model. They pay a percentage of revenue 00:07:48.980 --> 00:07:50.920 from the subscription. It's really interesting 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:53.160 when you look at it. So Apple have pushed the 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:56.319 onus back on to the hosting companies, the Acast, 00:07:56.540 --> 00:07:59.199 the AdWiz, to say, look, you serve the ads, you 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.819 control that part of it. But then there's Apple 00:08:01.819 --> 00:08:04.959 taking a cut of that money. So they're making 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:07.480 it a revenue generator. Whereas Spotify have 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:08.439 done it the other way around. They're saying, 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.399 we're going to generate revenue from subscriptions 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:12.660 and give you a percentage of that revenue. Do 00:08:12.660 --> 00:08:14.500 you think they will change that whole model now 00:08:14.500 --> 00:08:17.199 to mimic what Apple are doing and maybe bring 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:19.980 other partners into the Spotify video market? 00:08:20.220 --> 00:08:23.759 I think it depends on the confident Spotify feel 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:25.740 around their model. And that's something that's 00:08:25.740 --> 00:08:28.139 going to be very private to them internally in 00:08:28.139 --> 00:08:30.439 the discussions they have. Without doubt, Apple 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:32.980 doing what they're doing. And as I said, if YouTube... 00:08:33.259 --> 00:08:34.679 do roll out what they've said they're going to 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:36.259 do which is basically the same thing as apple 00:08:36.259 --> 00:08:38.620 i think potentially that does put spotify a little 00:08:38.620 --> 00:08:41.820 bit on the back foot however we all know by now 00:08:41.820 --> 00:08:44.559 don't bet against spotify because all right they're 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:46.940 innovators and experimenters and there's loads 00:08:46.940 --> 00:08:48.460 of things you can point to that sometimes they 00:08:48.460 --> 00:08:50.399 try and don't get right but at the end of the 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:52.139 day there's plenty of things they have got right 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:54.240 And they've also been super important for the 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:56.159 growth of podcasts and the podcast ecosystem. 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:58.759 And I would love to be a fly on the wall inside 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.320 Spotify and privy to the discussions they have. 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.539 Because genuinely, I'm not sure you or I can 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:05.240 really call it. I think they're going to know 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.159 what they're trying to develop as an ecosystem 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:10.419 and how much they feel threatened or not by what 00:09:10.419 --> 00:09:12.240 Apple and YouTube are doing. I think one of the 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.580 telling things is there's no data coming out 00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:17.399 of them on success metrics. And that often tells 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.480 me that it's not going the way they want. But 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:21.259 we'll see. You're right. We're not privy to it. 00:09:22.029 --> 00:09:24.350 One of the other things that you did before, 00:09:24.450 --> 00:09:26.230 you had a company called Something Else that 00:09:26.230 --> 00:09:28.690 produced a lot of content for radio, and then 00:09:28.690 --> 00:09:31.549 you went into multi -content production, so you 00:09:31.549 --> 00:09:34.309 were doing social media and podcasting. Given 00:09:34.309 --> 00:09:37.309 what the BBC have just announced, that companies 00:09:37.309 --> 00:09:39.610 who are independent podcast companies can now 00:09:39.610 --> 00:09:42.129 monetise that, would that have been a really 00:09:42.129 --> 00:09:44.389 big milestone win when you were running Something 00:09:44.389 --> 00:09:46.769 Else? Where's your take on it, given your background? 00:09:47.230 --> 00:09:49.769 Yeah, it would have been really important. And 00:09:49.769 --> 00:09:52.990 frankly, for many years, we tried having discussions 00:09:52.990 --> 00:09:56.789 with the BBC around being able to monetize. the 00:09:56.789 --> 00:09:59.730 content we were making away from the BBC, admittedly 00:09:59.730 --> 00:10:02.309 a different time. This is almost pre -podcasting, 00:10:02.389 --> 00:10:05.250 really. And even once podcasting started, I do 00:10:05.250 --> 00:10:07.429 remember a conversation that someone at something 00:10:07.429 --> 00:10:09.789 else had with a BBC exec, where the BBC exec 00:10:09.789 --> 00:10:11.570 said, what do you mean there's a market for you 00:10:11.570 --> 00:10:13.250 to take your shows to in podcasting? Of course 00:10:13.250 --> 00:10:15.669 there isn't. It's just us. And they could not 00:10:15.669 --> 00:10:17.230 get their heads around the fact that we were 00:10:17.230 --> 00:10:19.330 already speaking with companies in America, or 00:10:19.330 --> 00:10:21.490 obviously platforms like Spotify or Audible, 00:10:21.529 --> 00:10:25.019 about... shows so that's changed now the bbc 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:27.779 are definitely both feet in in terms of podcasting 00:10:27.779 --> 00:10:29.860 and i've always felt the bbc has a really special 00:10:29.860 --> 00:10:32.779 role in the uk creative ecosystem which is to 00:10:32.779 --> 00:10:34.840 help the creative industries they did a brilliant 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.320 job of that with the tv independent production 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:39.299 sector they have done a good job of that with 00:10:39.299 --> 00:10:42.100 the audio production sector but i felt as audio 00:10:42.100 --> 00:10:44.840 has become a space that can be more commercialized 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:47.389 where ad revenue becomes important. And of course, 00:10:47.389 --> 00:10:49.850 where IP becomes important. I think maybe the 00:10:49.850 --> 00:10:53.269 BBC been a little bit slow reacting here. I know 00:10:53.269 --> 00:10:54.690 the discussions have been taking place for a 00:10:54.690 --> 00:10:56.549 long time. The will has been there. I know from 00:10:56.549 --> 00:10:58.929 folks inside the BBC, but of course, it's a slow 00:10:58.929 --> 00:11:00.769 moving beast. But I do think it's a real plus 00:11:00.769 --> 00:11:03.350 they're doing it now. It's only a positive and 00:11:03.350 --> 00:11:05.679 it's only to be encouraged. So one of the other 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:07.879 players that's come into the market is Netflix. 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.059 Left Field suddenly announced it. One of my takes 00:11:11.059 --> 00:11:14.259 is that Netflix is a nighttime platform. YouTube 00:11:14.259 --> 00:11:16.620 is a daytime platform for me. I know a lot of 00:11:16.620 --> 00:11:19.419 people now consume content on YouTube on their 00:11:19.419 --> 00:11:22.279 main screen, but Netflix have highlighted that 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.019 YouTube is one of their biggest, if not their 00:11:24.019 --> 00:11:27.419 biggest competitor. Why have they gone into podcasting? 00:11:27.419 --> 00:11:29.899 Will it be a success in your opinion? Well, I 00:11:29.899 --> 00:11:32.720 don't think I'm the first person to really describe 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.279 what Netflix is. are doing as a chat show strategy 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:40.519 and when you look at what a traditional tv style 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:43.100 chat show might have cost if you look at the 00:11:43.100 --> 00:11:46.000 late night shows on us network tv these are shows 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:49.960 crewed up by 150 people expensive hosts big sets 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:53.320 live audiences they're expensive shows to make 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:55.440 and yet really when you break down the content 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.799 it's pretty similar to what podcasts are doing 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:00.340 in fact you might argue inferior because you 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:02.360 get five or ten minutes of conversation with 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:04.840 a huge name and then of course they move on to 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:06.940 the next guest or the next feature as opposed 00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:09.840 to exactly what we know with podcasts that amazing 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:12.039 ability to really have a very long conversation 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:14.279 with someone in a way you may not have heard 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:16.480 them before so i think it's a fantastic move 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:18.679 from netflix it's going to be really interesting 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:21.120 to see if it performs for them but of course 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.299 all the metrics are saying that screen consumption 00:12:23.299 --> 00:12:27.159 of podcast is going up continually And I'm not 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:28.919 sure I quite agree with you about YouTube being 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:30.899 a daytime medium and Netflix being a nighttime 00:12:30.899 --> 00:12:33.019 medium. I think if you're going for younger audiences, 00:12:33.019 --> 00:12:35.700 I don't think that's necessarily true. I think 00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:38.059 being an old person, I wouldn't know that. Yeah, 00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:42.460 exactly. And listen, I'm alongside you. But when 00:12:42.460 --> 00:12:44.059 you look at lots of the research, it doesn't 00:12:44.059 --> 00:12:46.360 necessarily true. And so, of course, YouTube, 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:49.100 if you see it in that context, actually becomes 00:12:49.100 --> 00:12:51.139 even more of a competitor with Netflix than I 00:12:51.139 --> 00:12:53.360 think. even your question may have suggested. 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:56.220 So it's absolutely the right strategy. And again, 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.639 what a fantastic thing for podcasting, right? 00:12:58.779 --> 00:13:00.779 If ever there was an example of podcasting eating 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:03.240 TV's lunch or eating the lunch of TV production 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.419 companies, this is it. Something that always 00:13:06.419 --> 00:13:08.519 gets left out of this conversation is Amazon. 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:11.639 I just never hear anyone on any podcast go, oh, 00:13:11.659 --> 00:13:13.740 and of course, Amazon are going to be able to 00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:16.940 do, never hear it. What's happening? Why is this 00:13:16.940 --> 00:13:19.919 sleepy giant not doing anything? Well, I think 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:22.110 Amazon, is fascinating. In a way, we might have 00:13:22.110 --> 00:13:23.750 said the same about Apple until the announcement 00:13:23.750 --> 00:13:27.870 a few weeks ago. First mover advantage isn't 00:13:27.870 --> 00:13:29.330 necessarily an advantage when you're in this 00:13:29.330 --> 00:13:31.909 space because, of course, Apple and Amazon and 00:13:31.909 --> 00:13:34.490 the like can throw huge amounts of resource at 00:13:34.490 --> 00:13:36.629 something as soon as they decide that's the direction 00:13:36.629 --> 00:13:39.889 they want to go in. So I would be amazed if Amazon 00:13:39.889 --> 00:13:43.289 don't do something in this space in the next, 00:13:43.350 --> 00:13:45.809 I don't know, 12 to 24 months. But let's see. 00:13:45.929 --> 00:13:48.129 The point is... If they want to move, they can 00:13:48.129 --> 00:13:49.610 move pretty fast. And therefore, the fact they 00:13:49.610 --> 00:13:51.590 haven't done anything yet, I don't think it's 00:13:51.590 --> 00:13:53.590 a lack of indication of ambition going forward. 00:13:53.870 --> 00:13:57.350 So now you can take your Sony hat off, given 00:13:57.350 --> 00:14:00.309 your ability to look back, where does Sony fit 00:14:00.309 --> 00:14:02.429 in all this ecosystem? That's a great question. 00:14:02.490 --> 00:14:04.570 I think Sony Music's focus and certainly the 00:14:04.570 --> 00:14:06.409 brief I had and everything we tried to develop 00:14:06.409 --> 00:14:08.570 was always on trying to develop an IP -focused 00:14:08.570 --> 00:14:12.169 business. And the aim for Sony Music was never 00:14:12.169 --> 00:14:14.350 to be the biggest player in the market because 00:14:14.350 --> 00:14:16.100 they don't need to do that. They just need to 00:14:16.100 --> 00:14:18.340 prove the model. And I think we started to do 00:14:18.340 --> 00:14:21.500 that. And frankly, Sony is definitely one of 00:14:21.500 --> 00:14:23.440 the few businesses that is in both of the major 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:25.779 markets of the US and UK. So there's lots of 00:14:25.779 --> 00:14:28.340 ways in which Sony Music's making the right impression. 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:30.320 They're also one of the few places, I think, 00:14:30.419 --> 00:14:32.559 that has a full -service podcast business, by 00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:35.259 which I mean in -house creative, marketing, ad 00:14:35.259 --> 00:14:38.559 sales, subscription. And that allows that team 00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:41.559 to experiment in lots of different ways. So I 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:43.559 would keep my eyes on what they're doing. They 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:45.679 continue to be a really dynamic bunch of people 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.320 with great leadership. And I certainly will be 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:52.009 fascinated to see. what comes next so given that 00:14:52.009 --> 00:14:53.870 you've had one foot in the us and thankfully 00:14:53.870 --> 00:14:56.350 haven't got a transatlantic accent you're back 00:14:56.350 --> 00:14:58.970 home i've heard you say that america is dynamic 00:14:58.970 --> 00:15:02.139 it's a bigger market But when I look at the UK 00:15:02.139 --> 00:15:04.500 market, I look at Goldhanger, I look at Persephone, 00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:07.039 I look at Crowd Network, I look at all the satellite 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:10.000 production companies around that. I look at PodX, 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.519 the London podcast show. It's a real buzz over 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:16.039 here in the UK. There's a real energy. So why 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:19.320 can't we compete with America? What's holding 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:21.460 us back? Well, I don't think it is that we can't 00:15:21.460 --> 00:15:23.960 compete. I think you just can't underestimate 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.370 the size of the market in the States. not just 00:15:27.370 --> 00:15:29.610 a podcast, it can be true for any industry, right? 00:15:29.730 --> 00:15:33.289 It is just huge and ginormous. And therefore, 00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:35.950 frankly, you can have a medium -sized show in 00:15:35.950 --> 00:15:38.029 the States and earn really phenomenal money out 00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:40.570 of that show in a way that is more difficult 00:15:40.570 --> 00:15:42.919 here. We all know that folks like Goldhanger 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:44.320 want to break the States. They've got the rest 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:45.799 of its history that does well over there. But 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:47.279 I think they haven't had many other shows that 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:48.940 have really penetrated over there. And that's, 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:50.840 I'm sure, a big part of the churning investment. 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:53.419 And the challenge now is really, can some of 00:15:53.419 --> 00:15:55.600 those companies start to break shows and content 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.000 that can appeal to US audiences? So the scale 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:00.379 is a big thing. I also feel that for a lot of 00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:03.000 our production sector, and it doesn't apply to 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.179 Goldhanger, but it does apply to some production 00:16:05.179 --> 00:16:07.200 companies, there's still that reliance on the 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.710 commissioned model. as opposed to the willingness 00:16:09.710 --> 00:16:11.649 to back yourself or to go out and raise money 00:16:11.649 --> 00:16:14.870 so that you can release your own shows. Persephoneca, 00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:17.289 great example where they're doing that. But I 00:16:17.289 --> 00:16:19.250 think in the States, you see that far more often. 00:16:19.350 --> 00:16:21.470 People willing to venture, to back themselves. 00:16:22.169 --> 00:16:24.330 There is an easier ability to raise money. So 00:16:24.330 --> 00:16:26.190 that's certainly true. But they go in with a 00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:28.169 mindset of, I want to create a business that 00:16:28.169 --> 00:16:30.950 has value, that has IP, as opposed to here, where 00:16:30.950 --> 00:16:32.870 I think a number of production companies have 00:16:32.870 --> 00:16:35.049 gone in with a view of, I want to earn money. 00:16:35.230 --> 00:16:37.269 And that's not quite the same as creating value 00:16:37.269 --> 00:16:40.470 in a business. I come from an entrepreneur background. 00:16:40.610 --> 00:16:43.450 I've been in the UK entrepreneur space for about 00:16:43.450 --> 00:16:46.360 30 years. And one of the biggest challenges is 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.419 you talked about raising money. It's fascinating 00:16:48.419 --> 00:16:51.200 that Goldhanger went US to raise their money. 00:16:51.259 --> 00:16:53.299 They didn't raise it in the UK. I think that 00:16:53.299 --> 00:16:55.019 is one of the biggest things that holds back 00:16:55.019 --> 00:16:58.980 the UK is the VC scene in the UK is all focused 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:01.679 on financials and fintech. If you're Revolut, 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:04.099 you'll raise billions. But if you're a podcast 00:17:04.099 --> 00:17:06.019 company, I don't think you can raise the numbers. 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.920 I saw this morning a company raise 5 million 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:12.349 for a little. badge device and it's like how 00:17:12.349 --> 00:17:14.730 can you raise five million dollars for that and 00:17:14.730 --> 00:17:16.569 yet you try and raise that in the uk they wouldn't 00:17:16.569 --> 00:17:18.809 give you 50p in a mars bar look the stereotype 00:17:18.809 --> 00:17:20.990 is true there is a greater risk -taking culture 00:17:20.990 --> 00:17:23.410 there there is an easier access to money there's 00:17:23.410 --> 00:17:25.970 much greater levels of wealth you cannot believe 00:17:25.970 --> 00:17:28.930 what wealth looks like until you live in the 00:17:28.930 --> 00:17:31.589 states and see what the very wealthiest the sort 00:17:31.589 --> 00:17:33.829 of lifestyle that the very wealthiest can sort 00:17:33.829 --> 00:17:35.430 of buy and i'm not saying that as a positive 00:17:35.430 --> 00:17:37.289 or negative it's just an observation but there 00:17:37.289 --> 00:17:40.559 is an easier route to money and it is true VCs 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.200 here I think are not so willing to take risks 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:44.920 but of course part of that is also the ambition 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:47.849 we have as an industry. And I really encourage 00:17:47.849 --> 00:17:50.450 folks to get away from the slightly, certainly 00:17:50.450 --> 00:17:52.789 the UK, the slightly inward looking mentality. 00:17:52.990 --> 00:17:55.349 And I do think one thing that folks in the States 00:17:55.349 --> 00:17:56.910 do really well, and I've mentioned this a few 00:17:56.910 --> 00:17:58.450 times, is they're great at puffing their chest 00:17:58.450 --> 00:17:59.930 out and looking upwards and being ambitious. 00:18:00.210 --> 00:18:02.549 And actually, when you look at the UK, I think 00:18:02.549 --> 00:18:04.670 you could apply this to some degree around Europe 00:18:04.670 --> 00:18:07.470 as well. But certainly the UK is a creative powerhouse 00:18:07.470 --> 00:18:10.690 across multiple industries, including the podcasting 00:18:10.690 --> 00:18:12.930 industry. We are home to the greatest filmmakers, 00:18:13.289 --> 00:18:16.519 musicians, TV producers, audio. producers, script 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.160 writers, authors, the list goes on and on. We're 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.500 a fantastic creative nation. And I would like 00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:23.859 folks in the UK to slightly look upwards and 00:18:23.859 --> 00:18:26.740 realize that with that comes the ability to achieve 00:18:26.740 --> 00:18:28.680 greater things. Look, in the something else days, 00:18:28.779 --> 00:18:31.119 we were able to just do the obvious, which was 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:33.539 to say, there's money in the state. Let's see 00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:35.279 if we can pick up work there. And we opened up 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.240 an office there. We had two or three people working 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:39.079 there because we could see there was an opportunity 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:41.420 there. And so it is also on the shoulders of 00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:43.319 folks who run businesses or would like to run 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:45.519 businesses to have that ambition. also and to 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:48.119 look outward and to think how can i grow my business 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:50.640 and where is the opportunity the last hot topic 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.759 that everyone's talking about currently is ai 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:54.900 not in the production sense i don't think that's 00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:56.779 a problem and you've got people who use it to 00:18:56.779 --> 00:18:59.460 create transcripts to do things like apple with 00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:02.400 timed links you do things like creating show 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.200 notes that's all a great use of what i call assisted 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:08.079 intelligence ai but there's a lot now that's 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.519 coming around with voice related ai and inception 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.309 point ai is one of those companies that is churning 00:19:14.309 --> 00:19:17.930 3 ,000 plus podcasts out a week. It really is 00:19:17.930 --> 00:19:20.329 the definition of slot. But that isn't going 00:19:20.329 --> 00:19:22.589 to be the only place where AI voice is used. 00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:25.390 Where do you sit on the fence of AI? Well, I 00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:27.789 don't think when you work in a creative industry 00:19:27.789 --> 00:19:30.250 like ours, you can be a Luddite in the sense 00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:31.990 of putting your hands on your ears and just saying, 00:19:32.069 --> 00:19:33.970 I'm not going to join in the conversation. We 00:19:33.970 --> 00:19:36.170 all know within the way we're all working, that 00:19:36.170 --> 00:19:38.109 AI is bringing lots of positive things, just 00:19:38.109 --> 00:19:41.029 in the basic ways that we work, research or writing 00:19:41.029 --> 00:19:43.720 or... whatever i think when it comes to creativity 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:46.380 i do think ai is something to offer i'm fascinated 00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:50.039 with what that can mean for translation and putting 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.799 shows into different languages I'm fascinated 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.339 for what that can mean in terms of speed of movement 00:19:56.339 --> 00:19:58.380 around editing. Already a bunch of companies 00:19:58.380 --> 00:20:01.819 that I know are certainly using AI for the generation 00:20:01.819 --> 00:20:03.900 of their social media assets, which obviously, 00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:07.099 again, allows them to be properly multi -platform 00:20:07.099 --> 00:20:09.079 production companies without necessarily incurring 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.480 crazy costs. So I think there's lots of positive 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:13.920 ways in which creativity can be applied. Do we 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.519 want AI slot with 3 ,000? I'm definitely on the 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:18.500 side of the argument that says... No, but that's 00:20:18.500 --> 00:20:20.359 because I'm a defender of creativity and I always 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:22.519 will be. We're a creative industry and creative 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.079 always has to come first on everything that is 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.220 done. Ultimately, we're about serving audiences 00:20:27.220 --> 00:20:29.240 and I don't think serving audiences is giving 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:31.460 them something to listen to or watch that frankly 00:20:31.460 --> 00:20:34.380 isn't very good. Now, last question. Given your 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:38.220 time in Sony and you were looking outbound towards 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:40.740 the industry, one of the areas that I spend a 00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:43.400 lot of my time in, and James and Adam Curry and 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:45.740 Dave Jones and many other people, is in what 00:20:45.740 --> 00:20:48.799 we've termed podcasting 2 .0. I'm always curious, 00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:51.559 because we are slightly myopic in our view. We're 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:53.519 talking about it all the time in this small little 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:55.819 niche group. Does it actually resonate outside 00:20:55.819 --> 00:20:58.039 to people like you in Sony when you were there? 00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:00.440 Or is it, oh, what's that? No, not bothered. 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.799 Move on. Until it gets... to Apple adding transcripts 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:05.819 or Apple adding chapters which came out of the 00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:08.039 work from that group. Is it just an annoyance 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:10.180 or a background noise or do you actually take 00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:12.339 note of any of that stuff going on? No, I think 00:21:12.339 --> 00:21:14.279 it's a bit of both. Innovation comes in lots 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:16.259 of different shapes and sizes. I'm a massive 00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:18.480 believer in innovation and just constantly looking 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:20.859 for improvement. And again, I think as long as 00:21:20.859 --> 00:21:23.859 we keep our eyes on the prize, which is not about 00:21:23.859 --> 00:21:26.680 what makes us as producers or as an industry 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:29.039 feel good, it's about the audience. always got 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:30.819 to be about the audience and so when you look 00:21:30.819 --> 00:21:33.339 at things like chapterization or transcript well 00:21:33.339 --> 00:21:35.259 frankly if that helps the audience to consume 00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:37.180 in a better way then of course it's a good thing 00:21:37.180 --> 00:21:38.779 and of course it should be part of the conversation 00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:42.200 and therefore anyone who's having those conversations 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:44.660 should be encouraged it's a positive thing last 00:21:44.660 --> 00:21:46.319 but not least and steve where are you going to 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.259 be in the world where are you are you going to 00:21:48.259 --> 00:21:50.480 be at podcast movement are you going to be in 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:52.519 south by southwest the london podcast show where 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:54.230 can we find you next Definitely going to be at 00:21:54.230 --> 00:21:57.569 the podcast show, seeing as I'm now part of the 00:21:57.569 --> 00:21:59.589 team. I think for the next few months, I'll be 00:21:59.589 --> 00:22:01.970 giving a few other events a skip, only because 00:22:01.970 --> 00:22:04.289 having lived outside the UK for a few years, 00:22:04.329 --> 00:22:05.849 I had a lot of time on aeroplanes and I'm quite 00:22:05.849 --> 00:22:07.910 happy to have a few months less so. I'm going 00:22:07.910 --> 00:22:09.589 to see how things settle down with other events. 00:22:09.710 --> 00:22:12.230 But I think in my mind, there were some podcast 00:22:12.230 --> 00:22:14.130 events that have become less valuable than others. 00:22:14.230 --> 00:22:16.940 So we'll see how things settle down there. But 00:22:16.940 --> 00:22:18.380 I'll certainly be at the podcast show. I'll certainly 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:20.519 be at a few other sort of creative industry related 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:23.200 events like Adweek. So yeah, come and say hi. 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:24.819 If you're listening today and we haven't met 00:22:24.819 --> 00:22:26.940 before, come and say hi to me. Steve Ackerman, 00:22:27.019 --> 00:22:29.579 thank you so much. Congratulations on a wonderful 00:22:29.579 --> 00:22:32.940 career so far. Congratulations on the move into 00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:34.640 the London podcast show. I think that's going 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.839 to be an exciting move for you. Well done. Thanks, 00:22:36.859 --> 00:22:37.740 Sam. Appreciate it.