Steve, you did about five years at Sony. You've
just left. I had a really weird thought. The
industry is about to go gangbusters, it feels
like, in 2026. Why leave Sony right now? That's
a great question because you're right. I think
things are about to hit another really fantastic
moment. It was a really personal decision and
actually a lot of it really was personal because
I was living in the States. I've got three adult
kids there in London. So that was obviously a
big... driver really and look I had an amazing
time at Sony Music it's full of amazing people
I've not got a bad word to say about them but
equally I spent 20 years being my own boss and
I felt it was time to get back properly to just
being a bit more in charge of myself. Now, I
understand that for personal reasons. Now, what
are you doing with yourself at the moment? I
think you've already encapsulated it. I'm really
acting as a board advisor to a bunch of businesses
and a consultant. So I'm working with lots of
different folks, both in the US and the UK, but
really helping different businesses grow or take
on different business challenges. You've got
a bit of an exclusive for us. Yeah, well, just
through serendipity of when we're recording this,
it is now being announced that I'm joining the
board, as in the company board of the podcast
show. that much -loved event, and I'm going to
be helping them grow as a business, both within
the UK and around the world. It's that last bit
you said, around the world. I will lay my cards
down and say I'm a London boy. The London Podcast
Show is a great show. I know Jason and Ferg have
done an amazing job. pulling that all together
my big worry it matters not what i think is that
it will water it down if we do the americans
won't come then we'll suddenly have just the
brits in london the americans in america and
wherever else you are i worry that you're going
to take the magic of the london podcast show
away well i think that's a really fair thing
to raise and of course i think i I can speak
on behalf of everyone at the podcast show when
I say that's the last thing we want to happen
to London. It's the jewel in the crown. It's
the flagship. But the world's a really big place.
And what's so exciting is our industry is becoming
a bigger and bigger industry and is absolutely
a global industry. And so I think having events
around the world that can continue the conversation
throughout the year and allow different folks
to attend where maybe London is a long way to
go or too expensive to go does throw open the
opportunity to look at what else we can do. Jason
and I have spoken to on numerous occasions who
runs the London Podcast Show, two areas that
I've always wanted him to evolve into. Given
Jason's background with the BBC and given your
background as a radio DJ and somebody who loves
music, there isn't a whole area of independent
musicians who are using podcasting RSS fundamentally
to distribute their music. I would love there
to be a way to get the musicians into that London
podcast show in some format, even if it's a panel,
even if it's a discussion, because one of the
things I find is the conversation will be video,
AI, monetisation, rinse and repeat, and there'll
be everyone having their different spin on it,
but that's where we are. There's a whole area
around music, and given... Jason's background
at the BBC as well I wonder whether that could
come into it now I'm throwing my wish list at
you just simply because you've announced it so
I'm allowed to do that you don't have to answer
any of this by the way but that's just me asking
well no I will answer because I think I'll say
that I think one thing that Jason Carter and
the team have just done so brilliantly over five
years is the podcast show has continually evolved
I think anybody who was there for the first event
and has been in subsequent years would hopefully
agree with that And of course, it will continue
to evolve. And that means hopefully you bring
in more and more different constituencies. I
think, for instance, one constituency who I would
expect to attend more in numbers this year than
in previous years are those related to the TV
industry. Of course, because of everything that's
happening in video, we wouldn't have expected
to necessarily see them at the podcast show a
few years ago. So I'm sure it will continue to
evolve with other constituencies getting involved.
And of course, if we can find a valid reason
why the music industry should be there, then
I think that would make sense. So let's move
on then, given your background and the way that
the podcast industry is moving towards video.
We've seen YouTube adopt the podcasting world.
We've seen Spotify. We saw the exclusives within
Spotify come and go. Where do you see video at
the moment as a podcaster? Is that something
that you have to do? Is it a nice to do? Where
are we? Well, first of all, I think we need to
come at video with just great optimism. I'm a
little bit sniffy about the folks who get agitated
about video and argue about, well, is it a podcast
or not? Frankly, who really cares? The point
is, it's allowing podcasters to reach new audiences
on other platforms. And certainly all the research
I've seen shows that video does not cannibalize
audio. It's additive. It finds new folk. And
that can only be great for the industry. Do you
have to have video? Not for every show. But I
think certainly if I was starting a regular show
now, a weekly show and always on show, I think
you'd be pretty crazy not to be thinking about
video. We've obviously got Spotify and YouTube
in play. We know Apple's coming. In fact, the
BBC, for those in the UK, have just announced
today that they're extending what they do on
the video side. And of course, it's going to
keep on rolling out amongst other folks as well.
So video has to be part of the ecosystem now.
And it's a good thing it is. It's opening up
new revenue streams. It's opening up new creative
opportunities. Do you think Spotify's video entry
has been successful. It's now been going for
over 12 months. What's your take on it? I think
it's been successful for those shows that are
big enough to see a good return on revenue. I
think the challenge with Spotify has been the
mid -range, the lower -range shows. For some
of those shows, it just doesn't make sense to
put your show on video on Spotify. And I think
the other potential challenge for Spotify is
every 12 or 18 months there's a different strategy.
And of course, that reflects the way the world's
changing very quickly as well. And I wouldn't
be surprised if on the video front, they have
to make some adjustments again. And that's partly
because they were one of the first movers. And
so credit to them for that. But also because
obviously, as we just mentioned, other platforms
are now evolving or doing other things. And that's
going to throw out questions for Spotify. So
has it been a success? Well, I think credit to
them for getting in there early and sort of forcing
the hand of other folks. But I think it depends
who you speak to. Some folks will say it's been
really good for them and other folks will say
it hasn't been so useful. Apple, they've just
got into the video game. They've done it in a
roundabout way. I think it's controlling the
flow of video because they've gone to four partners.
They're using an API. They're not using OpenRSS.
What do you think Apple will do with this? Will
it be a success or do you think this is going
to be something that they dip their toes in and
like Spotify sort of drift along? Well, I'm sure
Apple are the same as most platforms. Of course,
you want to look at what's the audience behavior
and how is it impacting on the platform. I'm
less bothered about the fact that a few partners
are involved. First of all, they're big partners.
They come with a lot of shows. And of course,
you have to start somewhere. It's pretty difficult
to roll something out immediately. But I think
the Apple announcement is a really exciting one.
First of all, the folks at Apple are really thoughtful.
We shouldn't forget they've been supportive of
the podcast industry for a long time, and they
should get some credit for that. And on the video
side, i think what they've announced is really
exciting especially because they're going to
allow dynamic ad insertion and i think that's
a really important development you know youtube
announced that last year they haven't announced
when that's rolling out but i think that's a
really important development because ultimately
i do think that can be a revenue game changer
at the moment unless you really have huge amounts
of views on youtube it's not a fantastic monetization
channel it's fantastic for getting views and
marketing your show not fantastic way to make
money if you're a medium or small size show which
of course the majority of the shows are i think
what apple are offering that chance for you to
sell your own ads into video and to really maximize
that inventory because of course you can have
different ads in different territories or you
can take an ad out and replace it with another
one after a few months i think that's a really
big move and i'm looking forward to hopefully
when youtube announced the date when they'll
start doing that as well Spotify have a totally
different model. They pay a percentage of revenue
from the subscription. It's really interesting
when you look at it. So Apple have pushed the
onus back on to the hosting companies, the Acast,
the AdWiz, to say, look, you serve the ads, you
control that part of it. But then there's Apple
taking a cut of that money. So they're making
it a revenue generator. Whereas Spotify have
done it the other way around. They're saying,
we're going to generate revenue from subscriptions
and give you a percentage of that revenue. Do
you think they will change that whole model now
to mimic what Apple are doing and maybe bring
other partners into the Spotify video market?
I think it depends on the confident Spotify feel
around their model. And that's something that's
going to be very private to them internally in
the discussions they have. Without doubt, Apple
doing what they're doing. And as I said, if YouTube...
do roll out what they've said they're going to
do which is basically the same thing as apple
i think potentially that does put spotify a little
bit on the back foot however we all know by now
don't bet against spotify because all right they're
innovators and experimenters and there's loads
of things you can point to that sometimes they
try and don't get right but at the end of the
day there's plenty of things they have got right
And they've also been super important for the
growth of podcasts and the podcast ecosystem.
And I would love to be a fly on the wall inside
Spotify and privy to the discussions they have.
Because genuinely, I'm not sure you or I can
really call it. I think they're going to know
what they're trying to develop as an ecosystem
and how much they feel threatened or not by what
Apple and YouTube are doing. I think one of the
telling things is there's no data coming out
of them on success metrics. And that often tells
me that it's not going the way they want. But
we'll see. You're right. We're not privy to it.
One of the other things that you did before,
you had a company called Something Else that
produced a lot of content for radio, and then
you went into multi -content production, so you
were doing social media and podcasting. Given
what the BBC have just announced, that companies
who are independent podcast companies can now
monetise that, would that have been a really
big milestone win when you were running Something
Else? Where's your take on it, given your background?
Yeah, it would have been really important. And
frankly, for many years, we tried having discussions
with the BBC around being able to monetize. the
content we were making away from the BBC, admittedly
a different time. This is almost pre -podcasting,
really. And even once podcasting started, I do
remember a conversation that someone at something
else had with a BBC exec, where the BBC exec
said, what do you mean there's a market for you
to take your shows to in podcasting? Of course
there isn't. It's just us. And they could not
get their heads around the fact that we were
already speaking with companies in America, or
obviously platforms like Spotify or Audible,
about... shows so that's changed now the bbc
are definitely both feet in in terms of podcasting
and i've always felt the bbc has a really special
role in the uk creative ecosystem which is to
help the creative industries they did a brilliant
job of that with the tv independent production
sector they have done a good job of that with
the audio production sector but i felt as audio
has become a space that can be more commercialized
where ad revenue becomes important. And of course,
where IP becomes important. I think maybe the
BBC been a little bit slow reacting here. I know
the discussions have been taking place for a
long time. The will has been there. I know from
folks inside the BBC, but of course, it's a slow
moving beast. But I do think it's a real plus
they're doing it now. It's only a positive and
it's only to be encouraged. So one of the other
players that's come into the market is Netflix.
Left Field suddenly announced it. One of my takes
is that Netflix is a nighttime platform. YouTube
is a daytime platform for me. I know a lot of
people now consume content on YouTube on their
main screen, but Netflix have highlighted that
YouTube is one of their biggest, if not their
biggest competitor. Why have they gone into podcasting?
Will it be a success in your opinion? Well, I
don't think I'm the first person to really describe
what Netflix is. are doing as a chat show strategy
and when you look at what a traditional tv style
chat show might have cost if you look at the
late night shows on us network tv these are shows
crewed up by 150 people expensive hosts big sets
live audiences they're expensive shows to make
and yet really when you break down the content
it's pretty similar to what podcasts are doing
in fact you might argue inferior because you
get five or ten minutes of conversation with
a huge name and then of course they move on to
the next guest or the next feature as opposed
to exactly what we know with podcasts that amazing
ability to really have a very long conversation
with someone in a way you may not have heard
them before so i think it's a fantastic move
from netflix it's going to be really interesting
to see if it performs for them but of course
all the metrics are saying that screen consumption
of podcast is going up continually And I'm not
sure I quite agree with you about YouTube being
a daytime medium and Netflix being a nighttime
medium. I think if you're going for younger audiences,
I don't think that's necessarily true. I think
being an old person, I wouldn't know that. Yeah,
exactly. And listen, I'm alongside you. But when
you look at lots of the research, it doesn't
necessarily true. And so, of course, YouTube,
if you see it in that context, actually becomes
even more of a competitor with Netflix than I
think. even your question may have suggested.
So it's absolutely the right strategy. And again,
what a fantastic thing for podcasting, right?
If ever there was an example of podcasting eating
TV's lunch or eating the lunch of TV production
companies, this is it. Something that always
gets left out of this conversation is Amazon.
I just never hear anyone on any podcast go, oh,
and of course, Amazon are going to be able to
do, never hear it. What's happening? Why is this
sleepy giant not doing anything? Well, I think
Amazon, is fascinating. In a way, we might have
said the same about Apple until the announcement
a few weeks ago. First mover advantage isn't
necessarily an advantage when you're in this
space because, of course, Apple and Amazon and
the like can throw huge amounts of resource at
something as soon as they decide that's the direction
they want to go in. So I would be amazed if Amazon
don't do something in this space in the next,
I don't know, 12 to 24 months. But let's see.
The point is... If they want to move, they can
move pretty fast. And therefore, the fact they
haven't done anything yet, I don't think it's
a lack of indication of ambition going forward.
So now you can take your Sony hat off, given
your ability to look back, where does Sony fit
in all this ecosystem? That's a great question.
I think Sony Music's focus and certainly the
brief I had and everything we tried to develop
was always on trying to develop an IP -focused
business. And the aim for Sony Music was never
to be the biggest player in the market because
they don't need to do that. They just need to
prove the model. And I think we started to do
that. And frankly, Sony is definitely one of
the few businesses that is in both of the major
markets of the US and UK. So there's lots of
ways in which Sony Music's making the right impression.
They're also one of the few places, I think,
that has a full -service podcast business, by
which I mean in -house creative, marketing, ad
sales, subscription. And that allows that team
to experiment in lots of different ways. So I
would keep my eyes on what they're doing. They
continue to be a really dynamic bunch of people
with great leadership. And I certainly will be
fascinated to see. what comes next so given that
you've had one foot in the us and thankfully
haven't got a transatlantic accent you're back
home i've heard you say that america is dynamic
it's a bigger market But when I look at the UK
market, I look at Goldhanger, I look at Persephone,
I look at Crowd Network, I look at all the satellite
production companies around that. I look at PodX,
the London podcast show. It's a real buzz over
here in the UK. There's a real energy. So why
can't we compete with America? What's holding
us back? Well, I don't think it is that we can't
compete. I think you just can't underestimate
the size of the market in the States. not just
a podcast, it can be true for any industry, right?
It is just huge and ginormous. And therefore,
frankly, you can have a medium -sized show in
the States and earn really phenomenal money out
of that show in a way that is more difficult
here. We all know that folks like Goldhanger
want to break the States. They've got the rest
of its history that does well over there. But
I think they haven't had many other shows that
have really penetrated over there. And that's,
I'm sure, a big part of the churning investment.
And the challenge now is really, can some of
those companies start to break shows and content
that can appeal to US audiences? So the scale
is a big thing. I also feel that for a lot of
our production sector, and it doesn't apply to
Goldhanger, but it does apply to some production
companies, there's still that reliance on the
commissioned model. as opposed to the willingness
to back yourself or to go out and raise money
so that you can release your own shows. Persephoneca,
great example where they're doing that. But I
think in the States, you see that far more often.
People willing to venture, to back themselves.
There is an easier ability to raise money. So
that's certainly true. But they go in with a
mindset of, I want to create a business that
has value, that has IP, as opposed to here, where
I think a number of production companies have
gone in with a view of, I want to earn money.
And that's not quite the same as creating value
in a business. I come from an entrepreneur background.
I've been in the UK entrepreneur space for about
30 years. And one of the biggest challenges is
you talked about raising money. It's fascinating
that Goldhanger went US to raise their money.
They didn't raise it in the UK. I think that
is one of the biggest things that holds back
the UK is the VC scene in the UK is all focused
on financials and fintech. If you're Revolut,
you'll raise billions. But if you're a podcast
company, I don't think you can raise the numbers.
I saw this morning a company raise 5 million
for a little. badge device and it's like how
can you raise five million dollars for that and
yet you try and raise that in the uk they wouldn't
give you 50p in a mars bar look the stereotype
is true there is a greater risk -taking culture
there there is an easier access to money there's
much greater levels of wealth you cannot believe
what wealth looks like until you live in the
states and see what the very wealthiest the sort
of lifestyle that the very wealthiest can sort
of buy and i'm not saying that as a positive
or negative it's just an observation but there
is an easier route to money and it is true VCs
here I think are not so willing to take risks
but of course part of that is also the ambition
we have as an industry. And I really encourage
folks to get away from the slightly, certainly
the UK, the slightly inward looking mentality.
And I do think one thing that folks in the States
do really well, and I've mentioned this a few
times, is they're great at puffing their chest
out and looking upwards and being ambitious.
And actually, when you look at the UK, I think
you could apply this to some degree around Europe
as well. But certainly the UK is a creative powerhouse
across multiple industries, including the podcasting
industry. We are home to the greatest filmmakers,
musicians, TV producers, audio. producers, script
writers, authors, the list goes on and on. We're
a fantastic creative nation. And I would like
folks in the UK to slightly look upwards and
realize that with that comes the ability to achieve
greater things. Look, in the something else days,
we were able to just do the obvious, which was
to say, there's money in the state. Let's see
if we can pick up work there. And we opened up
an office there. We had two or three people working
there because we could see there was an opportunity
there. And so it is also on the shoulders of
folks who run businesses or would like to run
businesses to have that ambition. also and to
look outward and to think how can i grow my business
and where is the opportunity the last hot topic
that everyone's talking about currently is ai
not in the production sense i don't think that's
a problem and you've got people who use it to
create transcripts to do things like apple with
timed links you do things like creating show
notes that's all a great use of what i call assisted
intelligence ai but there's a lot now that's
coming around with voice related ai and inception
point ai is one of those companies that is churning
3 ,000 plus podcasts out a week. It really is
the definition of slot. But that isn't going
to be the only place where AI voice is used.
Where do you sit on the fence of AI? Well, I
don't think when you work in a creative industry
like ours, you can be a Luddite in the sense
of putting your hands on your ears and just saying,
I'm not going to join in the conversation. We
all know within the way we're all working, that
AI is bringing lots of positive things, just
in the basic ways that we work, research or writing
or... whatever i think when it comes to creativity
i do think ai is something to offer i'm fascinated
with what that can mean for translation and putting
shows into different languages I'm fascinated
for what that can mean in terms of speed of movement
around editing. Already a bunch of companies
that I know are certainly using AI for the generation
of their social media assets, which obviously,
again, allows them to be properly multi -platform
production companies without necessarily incurring
crazy costs. So I think there's lots of positive
ways in which creativity can be applied. Do we
want AI slot with 3 ,000? I'm definitely on the
side of the argument that says... No, but that's
because I'm a defender of creativity and I always
will be. We're a creative industry and creative
always has to come first on everything that is
done. Ultimately, we're about serving audiences
and I don't think serving audiences is giving
them something to listen to or watch that frankly
isn't very good. Now, last question. Given your
time in Sony and you were looking outbound towards
the industry, one of the areas that I spend a
lot of my time in, and James and Adam Curry and
Dave Jones and many other people, is in what
we've termed podcasting 2 .0. I'm always curious,
because we are slightly myopic in our view. We're
talking about it all the time in this small little
niche group. Does it actually resonate outside
to people like you in Sony when you were there?
Or is it, oh, what's that? No, not bothered.
Move on. Until it gets... to Apple adding transcripts
or Apple adding chapters which came out of the
work from that group. Is it just an annoyance
or a background noise or do you actually take
note of any of that stuff going on? No, I think
it's a bit of both. Innovation comes in lots
of different shapes and sizes. I'm a massive
believer in innovation and just constantly looking
for improvement. And again, I think as long as
we keep our eyes on the prize, which is not about
what makes us as producers or as an industry
feel good, it's about the audience. always got
to be about the audience and so when you look
at things like chapterization or transcript well
frankly if that helps the audience to consume
in a better way then of course it's a good thing
and of course it should be part of the conversation
and therefore anyone who's having those conversations
should be encouraged it's a positive thing last
but not least and steve where are you going to
be in the world where are you are you going to
be at podcast movement are you going to be in
south by southwest the london podcast show where
can we find you next Definitely going to be at
the podcast show, seeing as I'm now part of the
team. I think for the next few months, I'll be
giving a few other events a skip, only because
having lived outside the UK for a few years,
I had a lot of time on aeroplanes and I'm quite
happy to have a few months less so. I'm going
to see how things settle down with other events.
But I think in my mind, there were some podcast
events that have become less valuable than others.
So we'll see how things settle down there. But
I'll certainly be at the podcast show. I'll certainly
be at a few other sort of creative industry related
events like Adweek. So yeah, come and say hi.
If you're listening today and we haven't met
before, come and say hi to me. Steve Ackerman,
thank you so much. Congratulations on a wonderful
career so far. Congratulations on the move into
the London podcast show. I think that's going
to be an exciting move for you. Well done. Thanks,
Sam. Appreciate it.