I'm so excited. We're joined by a good friend
of the show, Sharon Taylor. She's the wonderful
Chief Revenue Officer at Triton Digital. Sharon,
hello. How are you? Hello, I'm great. How are
you? Good. Now, you're the anomaly, aren't you?
The Australian in Canada. Yes, I got transplanted
up from the most beautiful weather that you could
imagine into the frozen north. And she took that,
accepted it, and went, yes. And I'm in the French
-Canadian part of Canada as well. So I've got
like a really thick Australian kind of meaty
bonjour, mate kind of vibe. So it's good. It's
going really well. Excellent. Now, the reason
we wanted to have a chat with you is because
Triton's been making lots and lots of announcements
very excitedly. And I wanted to catch up with
you. So the main thing really is you've moved
towards video now. You're an audio platform.
Let's start off with, for those who have never
heard of Triton, the three people left under
one rock, what is Triton? Triton is an audio
services provider to what started out as the
commercial broadcast industry, so a big streaming
provider, an ad insertion, and then now all audio,
so podcasting on demand, etc. We have a few different
pillars. We do podcast hosting through two CMS
that we own, Omni Studio and Spreaker. We do
all advertising, dynamic and programmatic. We
do measurement of the industry. And then we have
the streaming business still as well. So anything
audio you can think about is Triton Digital.
Nice. You've now started to make announcements
about moving towards video. So the first one
was the support for MP4. And then you did a deal
with Spotify. So talk to me about those two and
why you went into that video solution. Yeah,
I think for those that know me, know me as like
a real true audiophile. You know, when I was
running Omni Studio, Omni Studio for years has
just been an audio CMS. It's built for podcast.
It's built for audio on demand. And that was
Triton's take on the industry as well. We did
audio really well and we still do. Obviously,
in the last few years, all of us have watched
this groundswell towards YouTube and podcast
video in general. And in the early days, some
of us with our tinfoil hats were like, it's a
flash in the pan. It wasn't a flash. And so I
think. How we thought about video has changed
as the market kind of has moved. Essentially,
our job is just to be a hosting and distribution
and monetization platform for audio content.
And if audio content is becoming video as well,
then we need to do that. And so halfway through
last year, we decided to build video into the
Omni Studio CMS so that publishers could upload
an MP4 and... Apple at the time was really the
only one that allowed MP4 in RSS. It's not new
technology. It was Apple's best or worst kept
secret. And so we built that as like a beta product
because for us on video, especially, and for
me, it's very, very important that a publisher
stays in the driver's seat of their audience
and their monetization. Because I think we've
made missteps as an industry over the years of
giving away the keys to that kingdom. And for
us, it's really important that... How you monetize
and the ads that you run are delivered from a
central point. And so that's why we did the MP4
RSS to start. Now, a lot of other hosts have
intimated that, oh, it's far too expensive to
do MP4. You have to download a one gig file.
It's too much. Why would we do it? Yada, yada.
So where have you found the cost model then?
Because clearly you've decided to implement it,
but is it a big charge to the podcast creator
covering your cost? Or have you found a clever
way of downloading MP4s at a reasonable price?
No, we control the file size. And so I think
at the moment, we're only doing 720. The reality
of that beta product is it still exists. It was
great for many reasons that I outlined, like
remaining in that driver's seat. But it's challenging
because it was published to Apple specifically.
As a podcast consumer, And I will admit that
I'm firmly locked in Apple's ecosystem, but I'm
not leaping out of bed on a Monday morning looking
at Apple podcasts, all of the shows that I already
follow, and then thinking to myself, I should
search again for this show to see if there's
a video version. And one of the downsides of
the MP4 product and the way Apple does it is
that it had to be a separate show. And so candidly,
like uptake of that was not huge, but it did
give us the foundation. for what turned into
surprise conversations with Spotify and Apple
as they announced their own offerings. And so
we were ahead of the curve in terms of a UI to
allow for video upload. And it gave us a lot
of good learnings in terms of how to push the
file down. Video advertising and video delivery
is wildly expensive, to your point. And so I
think that that was the framework. And now we
can move into the Spotify, Apple offerings. and
take that learning with us as we figure out the
model for consumers and for publishers. Before
we get into the Spotify and the recent Apple
announcements, let me ask a few more questions.
So Apple in the past used to have a filter for
audio and video. Do you think they're going to
have to now update the UI to bring that back?
From what I know of what they're planning, and
obviously we were a launch partner for the announcement
for HLS, Apple are very good at... only letting
Apple know what they're going to do and, you
know, very successful at that. Their UX and their
UI, I think, is going to change quite drastically
to let users toggle between audio and video.
And they've been public about how they're going
to change that. I think that the podcast consumer
on Apple podcasts and how they want to find video,
there'll be lots of learnings there. And then
we'll be able to toggle between the two. And
if publishers still want to have a whole separate
show, they could do that as well. But I think
there's a lot we are. yet to find out in terms
of how that's going to roll. Okay. Now, one of
the things that I've been banging the drum about
is something called the alternative enclosure.
God rest his soul, Todd Cochran had a show with
Rob Greenlee and he had an audio feed and a video
feed. And I kept saying, oh, come on, Todd, put
the alternative enclosure, put the audio in the
primary in the video and the blah and vice versa.
And never the twain was met. He never did it.
Rob Greenlee has now done it since. One of the
things that we're asking Apple to do as an industry,
I guess, is to support it. But I think Triton,
or as part of Omni, have now supported the alternative
enclosure. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct.
Yep. What do you think you're going to use it
for then? Because if the primary is MP4, what
do you think people start to use the alternative
enclosure for when they're your customer? Yeah,
a lot of our customers have their owned and operated
apps. A lot of our customers have their own aggregator
apps that pull in content from the rest of the
podcast ecosystem as well. And so I think it's
too early to understand what they want to do
with it. But we knew that there was a groundswell
that is asking for the alternative enclosure
URL. And so it's just our job to make sure that
all the technical opportunities are there for
publishers to choose how they want. I think it'll
be mostly in their own apps because you want
to, again, that driver's seat analogy, you want
to remain in that seat. especially to control
costs of allowing people and where you want to
distribute that video out. Okay. Now, along came
Spotify, knocked on the door of Triton and said,
hello, we're going to do video. What did you
think about that and what has the relationship
been? Yeah, that's a good question. My thoughts
on Spotify have, and I'd say this to their face,
and so I don't think they'd be upset if they're
listening to this. It is a walled garden. It
has been historically. And in order to monetize
on Spotify or upload a video, it really meant
cutting off your RSS feed. You know, I was speaking
to a publisher just this morning who still uploads
the video into Spotify and the access to the
video audience is enough of a carrot for them
to cut off their advertising because obviously
it breaks RSS. No longer can you get dynamically
inserted ads, programmatic or direct sold. And
so it's been... a hard sell, I think, historically
for publishers to think about that. It is fascinating
that publishers think about YouTube video totally
different to audio first apps. Publishers seem
to think of YouTube as this whole different platform.
It doesn't matter if my ads appear in it. I'll
just burn them in as video reads and I'll take
the YouTube money. That thinking hasn't pulled
across into Spotify, especially, which are doing
the same business model, which is you upload
something separately to their system. And then
you allow them to monetize it if you're on their
platform. But it really does split apart from
audio advertising. And so when they came to us,
it's because they wanted to open the door to
a greater amount of content on their system.
And so I think they came to us and Acast and
Audioboom and a couple of others. And so we now
have access to an API that would allow publishers
on Omni to push a video file out to Spotify.
It still does not allow for dynamic ad insertion.
And I personally am very passionate about that.
And I think Triton's job is to ensure that the
ads that you run appear in as many places as
you have an audience for. And so I'm interested
to see how that develops over time and how they
respond to what Apple has put in the market.
And again, hopefully that rising tide lifts all
of our podcasting boats. Yeah. Before we get
into what Apple and you guys are doing today.
One of the interesting things is the revenue
model that Spotify put forward to creators was
that they get a percentage of the subscription
revenue. Now, they've never revealed the results
of that, and that's been quite telling. And we've
had it for now over a year. So they have the
data, they're just not revealing, which suggests
something anyway. Now, the other part of that
is also we're hearing anecdotally quite a few
creators are now coming away from Spotify video
back to the audio only. so they can get into
the span advertising market and also do dynamic
ad insertion. So I think Spotify's got some rethinking
to do, and I'll ask you a question about that
in a minute. But fast forward then to today,
and Apple last Monday came out with a bombshell
announcement. We're going to be doing video HLS.
Of course, timely, you'd already announced that
you're going to be supporting HLS as a platform,
so that was really good. So I'm guessing that
was in line with what you were probably working
with Apple on anyway. So you probably had early
access because you weren't going to be just dropped
into the, you know, by the way, here we go on
Monday and here's a partner. So I'm sure you
were given early access. But with the new way
that it works as a secret API key, you deliver
an HLS file playlist to Apple and then those
ads get injected into the audio. That again now
is. a new model that is in the market that gives
you a really good competitive advantage. How
have you found, as Triton, adopting to this new
model? Have you had to change anything? Is it
just business as usual and we've just got on
with it? How's it been? At the moment, it's business
as usual. We still have a couple more weeks to
finish off the HLS build. And so now that we
can talk about it with publishers in the industry,
it has been received incredibly well. I feel
like, again, that driver's seat, every publisher
wants that. Every publisher wants to access a
video audience, but also maintain their revenue
and their top and bottom lines. And so the conversations
have been incredible in terms of how people are
thinking about it. How we are approaching it,
I think, is another layer of our video offering.
And so it's not going to be for everyone. Video
is expensive to create. And we should talk a
little bit more about the... advertising structure
that Apple is offering and how the HLS will be
delivered. Like HLS will still be delivered via
download and auto downloads will still be enabled.
And I think the jury is out on what advertiser
appetite for video advertising in a video podcast
that's downloaded will be. So I think we're in
like a watch and wait there along with many publishers.
But in terms of HLS and the opportunities that
affords podcasting to move into a more streaming
focused world, I think is... the biggest upside
that we are hoping for. So first of all, given
that HLS is a streaming platform, it means that
you're sending packets of data, not downloading
the whole file. So that should be a cost -effective
model for you as a host. But secondly, it now
gives you better metrics. You now get who's playing
the actual audio and video and how long they
did that for. The minute they stop playing, the
packets stop getting delivered. So before you
were talking about Spotify being a walled garden
within many ways. Apple was also a walled garden.
First party data wasn't given back to their host.
Those that had done delegated delivery didn't
get any benefit. There was no extra data coming
back. So this feels like... Just the workflow
saving. Yeah, exactly. And so this feels like
you as a partner now are going to get first party
data back because you're the ones delivering
the video as a... hls file so you've got the
information now that used to be encapsulated
and controlled by apple i do think that is one
of the beliefs out there and it's one of the
conversations that we've been having especially
with publishers but what is transmitted back
is still largely in control of apple and so the
reason we built hls and we're building that before
the announcement is because, again, we have all
these publishers that have got their own and
operated apps. And we do believe that that is
a nice way. If you could get to 10 % of listening
and prove that like an ad was listened to, is
that a big enough of a sample to stop the industry
commentators from saying that, you know, podcast
ads aren't listened to, even though it's been.
A decade in advertising. I'm the worst of those,
yes. I saw James on LinkedIn with you the other
day. Advertisers wouldn't come back if it wasn't
working. And I think we are very unique as an
industry. No one in the out -of -home industry
talks about, well, are the eyes actually on the
billboard? We know that advertising as a beast
works and there are some assumptions built in.
So with HLS and obviously it being streaming,
yes, the protocol allows for that. But only if
the player sends things back. And so, no, we
don't get to see anything about first party data
that Apple won't send us. And I think that's
also a nice thing about podcasting, that it is
a less privacy invasive version of other advertising
that's out there. And so, no, we won't be able
to see that, not on day one. As the industry
moves, and I think Apple has shown they're quite
good at listening to industry feedback, my hope
is that advertisers and publishers say, hey,
we would love some extra data back. And in a
way that kind of helps us control. the release
of that data and the narrative around it to the
advertising industry, as opposed to it just being
one day, it all just moves to streaming. Because
that's going to be hard to get our arms around
and talk about coherently, I think, to advertisers.
And so this is a nice first step into that world,
I hope. Do you think Apple will enable HLS in
the primary enclosure without this API, so within
the RSS model? Oh, I don't know. I don't know,
generally. Okay. And that would be the ideal,
that the step one was we'll do it through this
secret API because we want to control the ad
revenue spend and measurement. Well, I mean,
they're listening to this primarily probably
to make sure I don't breach an NDA, but if they're
listening, it would be great. Yeah. It's okay.
We cut out all the bits that you're not allowed
to say. No, no, don't say that because they'll
think that I breached it and then like you edited
it out. I didn't. I didn't. Anyway, let's get
back on track. So, okay. So we hope that... Apple
will do one of two things. A, allow HLS in the
primary enclosure, and B, support the alternative
enclosure as well. So we'll see. That's a big
step forward. We will, yes. It's so early days,
and I think that, especially as the industry
gives feedback, I think that what we have today
is going to be different to the next version
of this episode we do in a year's time. Yeah,
I always wind up Apple saying they're one engineer
that has now been moved on to another project
anyway. So Spotify must be sitting there going,
hang on a minute, wait a minute. Apple has gone
to these partners and they've said, you host
it, you pay the cost of hosting and delivery,
and if there's any naughtiness in the video,
you're liable, but you pay us a little transaction
for every ad. And Spotify must be saying, that's
a much better model than we've got right now,
where we're giving creators a percentage of revenue.
Wish I knew the answer because to your earlier
point, like none of this data has ever been released.
I do think it's quite telling as well as an industry
that we're all moving to video, but there's not
really any revenue data out there. Like if the
pot of gold was substantial at the end, I do
think that's again, why I like our MP4 RSS and
the HOS idea, because again, you control that
and you can forecast and you can budget and you
can understand like where your costs are going
to be. I don't know what Spotify would be thinking
at the moment. I would imagine that the rev share
is probably greater than a CPM that they could
charge. I think YouTube, Spotify and Apple have
been watching the industry and making adjustments.
There's a reason that Spotify announced that
this API would be open to more platforms. And
so, yes, I think that they will adjust because
that's what they've done in the past, all three
of these platforms, how they adjust. and how
they position themselves uniquely in market compared
to YouTube and Apple, while they're all essentially
fighting over audience, and we are just hoping
to catch some benefits as an industry on the
way through. I don't know. If I was at Spotify,
I would be thinking about a different model,
for sure. Yeah, I think it has to be a conversation
that's going on. Now, you've got the title of
Chief Revenue Officer, so I'm going to ask you,
what do you think will be the uptake then of...
People now saying they want to put their ads
into video on Apple because it's a fairly niche
thing to do as well. So, you know, we talked
about the uptake of MP4 into Apple because the
UI and the UX doesn't really lend itself. And
if you're then taking the time, effort and energy
to put a video up and to get ads put into it
and then distributed to Apple and the UI is not
supportive of it. Again, must have some sort
of early predictions of where you think the percentage
will be in uplift of revenue. I'm a little sceptical,
personally. I think that, especially on day one,
the opportunity of putting ads into a video podcast
on Apple exists. Whether that's 1%, 10 % or more,
I think in the initial phase, those numbers feel
right to me. I think the jury is out on how existing
advertisers will respond to what Apple is offering.
There's a video advertiser that exists right
now in the industry, like writ large in advertising,
and they are used to getting very specific video
metrics back. They are used to getting average
view duration and all the things that YouTube
give. I don't know how they're going to respond
to this new offering, which is a primarily audio
first audience. listening to audio ads or getting
video ads in their video show but as a download
and as an impression that market size could be
substantial and it's obviously why we have jumped
at this opportunity because it is like the next
kind of meaningful revenue move will existing
advertisers who already understand how podcast
downloads work be the first ones to come in like
i feel like the first step will be transmitting
maybe like a logo or you could do product placement
for the advertiser now in the show if you have
a sponsorship. There are other ways to drive
a CPM higher, I think, and to show that there
is a new audience on Apple and maybe the revenue
growth in general, if the CPM stays flat, is
what makes up the difference. Basically, my quantifications
are, I hope so, I think so. I don't know what
that number is. And they haven't launched yet.
Like, ask me in two months and I'll tell you
what I can. Now, looking... Beyond that then,
one of the interesting things I wanted to cover
off with you was where you see the market going.
Now, Triton released a report recently, which
was a state of podcasting 2025. And in it, I
think the result was 7 % watch video as a dedicated
mechanism. The middle ground was about 80 % and
the remainder was just audio only. So can you
really extrapolate that, you know, the audience
is moving away from audio to video or is it?
everyone's just happy to mix and match. What
did you take as a summary of that report? The
report was fast. We've had amazing pickup on
that report, and I think it's because it does
show the nuance that does matter between creators
and advertisers. There's a lot of industry commentating
around podcasting Zed Long Live videos, which
I don't subscribe, like I said at the top, an
audio file, and I want to listen because, you
know, it's just how I choose to consume this
content. But I think the report showed that That
is still true. Like, yes, there is a watch only
audience, but there is still like nearly 13 %
listening exclusively via audio. And then we
showed that show genre consumption is dependent
on the genre. And so like history, for instance,
is very audio first. I think we also showed that
sports and music lent more towards video, which
makes sense because as a consumer of media, there
are things that you sometimes want to watch and
there are things that you sometimes kind of want
to listen. And so I do think that Apple getting
into the game is a unique audience. YouTube is
video first. This is a consumer base that is
very video focused, video first. And so, of course,
all the data to date has been about people wanting
to watch podcasts. Apple podcast is a primarily
audio first medium and the way that they are
pushing it out. I do think it's a different audience
there and how they choose to engage between the
video and audio will be really hopefully tasty
data and really quite telling because I do think
that as an industry, we need to remember that
audio first is podcasting. Do you know what I
mean? Like we're such an interesting beast. Like
a book can be an audio book, but it's adapted
differently for TV or movies. And yet we have
decided that like our visual version of the shows
is the same as the audio version. And I think
that's telling in the data based on the audience
numbers, because how people choose to consume,
if it's an audio -first experience, makes sense
that they're kind of that 80 % are swapping between
the two, because sometimes it might be interesting
enough to watch, and other times it's still audio
-first and powerful. It's like a relationship
in your ears. And again, I think we will let
the market decide, but YouTube claims that the
market's moving their way. Now, one of the new
entrants into the market is Netflix. Yes. Which,
surprise, I mean, is it cheap TV? Is it filling
out the schedule because they can't? Or is it
the fact that, I think I said this to James,
I watch YouTube during the day and I watch Netflix
at night. And the two never really mix. That's
from a Brit. Of course, I understand YouTube
in the North American market is also a primary
channel. But generally, that's how I see it.
Has Triton got a relationship with Netflix? Will
you be working with any of those podcast platforms?
Will you be serving ads? Or is there nothing
at all that works between the two of you? At
the moment, Netflix are doing licensing deals
direct with the publishers and creators. And
so they're just getting the video file separately
and then pushing onto their own servers. And
so there's no technical gateway there between
us. There are other apps that have come to us
and said that they would like to get the video
versions onto their podcast apps. I think that
the licensing model in podcasting, so funny with
Netflix and Hulu getting into it. You know that
meme with the butterfly and it's like, is this
a podcast? I forget who it was. I listened to
a podcast called The Town and there was a wonderful
woman on there who I will now butcher what she
said, which is Netflix and these entertainment
giants. are not getting into podcasting because
they want to be in podcasting. They have an audience
who are looking for a certain type of content
and podcasting has a lot of content and they
are marrying that up and then using the halo
effect of podcasting to try and hopefully move
an audience there as well. And so it's just content
being found by an audience. I don't imagine a
world where Netflix and others are pulling from
the RSS feed or even looking to a podcast host
like us to get that file because their systems
are built specifically for video in a very specific
way. I am interested to see what happens with
Apple TV. We're not pushing 4K, to your point
about costs, but maybe Apple TV puts podcasts
there as like follow -up to the shows the way
that Disney Plus is doing potentially. And maybe
because they already have the relationship on
the Apple podcast side, maybe that's an easier
doorway, especially onto mobile devices. But
no, Netflix and the entertainment industry writ
large are doing what they want to do and calling
what they want to call a podcast. No shade. Yeah,
in the marketing departments, I think you're
spot on. Like, are you using the halo effect?
This is a podcast. No, it's not a podcast. It's
not even a podcast on YouTube. Yes, yes. And
then we get, like, looked at like the insane
ones because we are pushing our glasses up our
nose and saying, but it's not an RSS feed. And
then we immediately lose the media argument at
that point. And so, you know, that's fine. I'll
take the halo effect on our side as well. All
the work that Adam Curry does and Dave Jones
and the rest of the podcasting 2 .0 community
is all about enhancing the RSS feed. It's the
metadata. It's not about... Yes, 100%. And therefore
a podcast without an RSS feed really is irrelevant
to me because it doesn't involve any of the work
we've been doing for the last three or four years.
Okay. And final question, Sharon. One of the
interesting things is we're seeing a lot of content
go towards premium content. We've seen big numbers
really from Patreon, $2 billion paid out to content
creators. Supercast sold to fundamentally Fox
and they were paying out $26 million to their
top 10 creators. How do you see the market going
between the advertising and the premium content?
And how does Triton deal with that? Do you provide
premium content capabilities as well? Okay, yes,
we do. And I have thought about this for a long
time. So we built a product called Secure Distribution
five years ago, again, for the publishers that
have got their owned and operated apps. And it
allowed them to sell subscriptions without having
to think about a third -party platform. So if
you have your own membership database and your
own payment gateway, you can sell that and retain
a lion's share of the revenue. Again, that driver's
seat analogy that's really important to us. But
we do integrate with Spotify Open Access. And
then we were one of the launch partners that
Apple chose as well for the premium feeds that
they have, the delegated delivery that you were
talking about earlier. And so, yeah, I think
that... especially as business models continue
to change and as video plays a larger role. Our
job is just allow for whatever model publishers
want and mix and match. If you want a show that
is premium, have a show that's premium. Going
back to video, I would love it if some of those
things were able to do premium video as well,
because I think that also solves part of the
advertising conundrum with video podcasting.
So no, I mean, 100%, I think paid audiences work
for a very specific type of show. I don't know
that it works for podcasting, you know, as an
industry writ large because the content's been
available and ad supported for so long. But for
a very specific show with a very engaged audience
and a huge fan base, I think it's an amazing
business model. Now, if I want to find out more
about Triton, Omni, Spreaker, everything that
you guys do, where would I go? Head up to tritondigital
.com is the best port of call. There's a blog
there. There's like a whole pile of information
that we keep updated around what's going on in
the industry and what we're up to and a way to
get in touch with us there through the contact
form. Cool. And last and most important question,
will we be seeing you for a beer in London? Yes,
I will definitely be there. Yes, looking forward
to it. Violet of the podcasting calendar of the
year, honestly. Excellent. Sharon, thank you
so much. Congratulations to everything that you
guys are doing. It must be exciting right now
with all the things that are changing and moving
around. It gets audio, video, HLS subscription.
It's a good time to be in podcasting, I think.
It's always been a great time. I've said it's
every year that I've been in the industry, that
it's a great time to be in the industry and an
interesting time to be in the industry as like
everything kind of changes. So it's continuing
to be another one in 2026. Brilliant. See you
soon, mate.