WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.899 I'm so excited. We're joined by a good friend 00:00:01.899 --> 00:00:04.259 of the show, Sharon Taylor. She's the wonderful 00:00:04.259 --> 00:00:07.700 Chief Revenue Officer at Triton Digital. Sharon, 00:00:07.820 --> 00:00:10.220 hello. How are you? Hello, I'm great. How are 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:13.060 you? Good. Now, you're the anomaly, aren't you? 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.500 The Australian in Canada. Yes, I got transplanted 00:00:16.500 --> 00:00:19.019 up from the most beautiful weather that you could 00:00:19.019 --> 00:00:21.800 imagine into the frozen north. And she took that, 00:00:21.899 --> 00:00:24.859 accepted it, and went, yes. And I'm in the French 00:00:24.859 --> 00:00:26.879 -Canadian part of Canada as well. So I've got 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:28.960 like a really thick Australian kind of meaty 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:31.600 bonjour, mate kind of vibe. So it's good. It's 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:33.960 going really well. Excellent. Now, the reason 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:35.460 we wanted to have a chat with you is because 00:00:35.460 --> 00:00:38.439 Triton's been making lots and lots of announcements 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.399 very excitedly. And I wanted to catch up with 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:44.219 you. So the main thing really is you've moved 00:00:44.219 --> 00:00:46.640 towards video now. You're an audio platform. 00:00:47.229 --> 00:00:49.210 Let's start off with, for those who have never 00:00:49.210 --> 00:00:51.270 heard of Triton, the three people left under 00:00:51.270 --> 00:00:55.490 one rock, what is Triton? Triton is an audio 00:00:55.490 --> 00:00:57.990 services provider to what started out as the 00:00:57.990 --> 00:01:00.170 commercial broadcast industry, so a big streaming 00:01:00.170 --> 00:01:03.750 provider, an ad insertion, and then now all audio, 00:01:03.829 --> 00:01:07.090 so podcasting on demand, etc. We have a few different 00:01:07.090 --> 00:01:09.670 pillars. We do podcast hosting through two CMS 00:01:09.670 --> 00:01:12.549 that we own, Omni Studio and Spreaker. We do 00:01:12.549 --> 00:01:15.640 all advertising, dynamic and programmatic. We 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.239 do measurement of the industry. And then we have 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.140 the streaming business still as well. So anything 00:01:20.140 --> 00:01:21.959 audio you can think about is Triton Digital. 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:25.379 Nice. You've now started to make announcements 00:01:25.379 --> 00:01:27.799 about moving towards video. So the first one 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:31.900 was the support for MP4. And then you did a deal 00:01:31.900 --> 00:01:33.760 with Spotify. So talk to me about those two and 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:37.040 why you went into that video solution. Yeah, 00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:40.000 I think for those that know me, know me as like 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.140 a real true audiophile. You know, when I was 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:45.319 running Omni Studio, Omni Studio for years has 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:47.780 just been an audio CMS. It's built for podcast. 00:01:47.980 --> 00:01:50.200 It's built for audio on demand. And that was 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.540 Triton's take on the industry as well. We did 00:01:52.540 --> 00:01:55.560 audio really well and we still do. Obviously, 00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:57.739 in the last few years, all of us have watched 00:01:57.739 --> 00:02:02.000 this groundswell towards YouTube and podcast 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:05.319 video in general. And in the early days, some 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:07.640 of us with our tinfoil hats were like, it's a 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.580 flash in the pan. It wasn't a flash. And so I 00:02:10.580 --> 00:02:13.550 think. How we thought about video has changed 00:02:13.550 --> 00:02:16.710 as the market kind of has moved. Essentially, 00:02:16.710 --> 00:02:20.030 our job is just to be a hosting and distribution 00:02:20.030 --> 00:02:23.550 and monetization platform for audio content. 00:02:23.810 --> 00:02:26.750 And if audio content is becoming video as well, 00:02:26.830 --> 00:02:29.830 then we need to do that. And so halfway through 00:02:29.830 --> 00:02:33.509 last year, we decided to build video into the 00:02:33.509 --> 00:02:36.750 Omni Studio CMS so that publishers could upload 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:40.370 an MP4 and... Apple at the time was really the 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:43.330 only one that allowed MP4 in RSS. It's not new 00:02:43.330 --> 00:02:45.810 technology. It was Apple's best or worst kept 00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:47.889 secret. And so we built that as like a beta product 00:02:47.889 --> 00:02:50.590 because for us on video, especially, and for 00:02:50.590 --> 00:02:53.689 me, it's very, very important that a publisher 00:02:53.689 --> 00:02:56.090 stays in the driver's seat of their audience 00:02:56.090 --> 00:02:59.469 and their monetization. Because I think we've 00:02:59.469 --> 00:03:01.789 made missteps as an industry over the years of 00:03:01.789 --> 00:03:04.969 giving away the keys to that kingdom. And for 00:03:04.969 --> 00:03:08.080 us, it's really important that... How you monetize 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:10.900 and the ads that you run are delivered from a 00:03:10.900 --> 00:03:13.139 central point. And so that's why we did the MP4 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:16.639 RSS to start. Now, a lot of other hosts have 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.479 intimated that, oh, it's far too expensive to 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:22.060 do MP4. You have to download a one gig file. 00:03:22.139 --> 00:03:24.479 It's too much. Why would we do it? Yada, yada. 00:03:24.620 --> 00:03:26.979 So where have you found the cost model then? 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:29.360 Because clearly you've decided to implement it, 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:33.039 but is it a big charge to the podcast creator 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:35.610 covering your cost? Or have you found a clever 00:03:35.610 --> 00:03:39.389 way of downloading MP4s at a reasonable price? 00:03:40.090 --> 00:03:42.509 No, we control the file size. And so I think 00:03:42.509 --> 00:03:45.770 at the moment, we're only doing 720. The reality 00:03:45.770 --> 00:03:49.330 of that beta product is it still exists. It was 00:03:49.330 --> 00:03:51.650 great for many reasons that I outlined, like 00:03:51.650 --> 00:03:54.469 remaining in that driver's seat. But it's challenging 00:03:54.469 --> 00:03:57.069 because it was published to Apple specifically. 00:03:57.610 --> 00:04:00.740 As a podcast consumer, And I will admit that 00:04:00.740 --> 00:04:03.379 I'm firmly locked in Apple's ecosystem, but I'm 00:04:03.379 --> 00:04:06.259 not leaping out of bed on a Monday morning looking 00:04:06.259 --> 00:04:08.780 at Apple podcasts, all of the shows that I already 00:04:08.780 --> 00:04:12.219 follow, and then thinking to myself, I should 00:04:12.219 --> 00:04:15.199 search again for this show to see if there's 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:17.680 a video version. And one of the downsides of 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.519 the MP4 product and the way Apple does it is 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:23.399 that it had to be a separate show. And so candidly, 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:26.339 like uptake of that was not huge, but it did 00:04:26.339 --> 00:04:29.189 give us the foundation. for what turned into 00:04:29.189 --> 00:04:31.449 surprise conversations with Spotify and Apple 00:04:31.449 --> 00:04:33.649 as they announced their own offerings. And so 00:04:33.649 --> 00:04:36.490 we were ahead of the curve in terms of a UI to 00:04:36.490 --> 00:04:39.449 allow for video upload. And it gave us a lot 00:04:39.449 --> 00:04:41.250 of good learnings in terms of how to push the 00:04:41.250 --> 00:04:43.870 file down. Video advertising and video delivery 00:04:43.870 --> 00:04:46.529 is wildly expensive, to your point. And so I 00:04:46.529 --> 00:04:48.449 think that that was the framework. And now we 00:04:48.449 --> 00:04:51.040 can move into the Spotify, Apple offerings. and 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:53.019 take that learning with us as we figure out the 00:04:53.019 --> 00:04:55.000 model for consumers and for publishers. Before 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.420 we get into the Spotify and the recent Apple 00:04:57.420 --> 00:04:59.519 announcements, let me ask a few more questions. 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:03.579 So Apple in the past used to have a filter for 00:05:03.579 --> 00:05:05.579 audio and video. Do you think they're going to 00:05:05.579 --> 00:05:08.459 have to now update the UI to bring that back? 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:11.819 From what I know of what they're planning, and 00:05:11.819 --> 00:05:14.899 obviously we were a launch partner for the announcement 00:05:14.899 --> 00:05:18.089 for HLS, Apple are very good at... only letting 00:05:18.089 --> 00:05:19.829 Apple know what they're going to do and, you 00:05:19.829 --> 00:05:23.089 know, very successful at that. Their UX and their 00:05:23.089 --> 00:05:25.790 UI, I think, is going to change quite drastically 00:05:25.790 --> 00:05:28.769 to let users toggle between audio and video. 00:05:28.829 --> 00:05:30.209 And they've been public about how they're going 00:05:30.209 --> 00:05:33.769 to change that. I think that the podcast consumer 00:05:33.769 --> 00:05:36.550 on Apple podcasts and how they want to find video, 00:05:36.649 --> 00:05:38.769 there'll be lots of learnings there. And then 00:05:38.769 --> 00:05:40.709 we'll be able to toggle between the two. And 00:05:40.709 --> 00:05:42.189 if publishers still want to have a whole separate 00:05:42.189 --> 00:05:44.209 show, they could do that as well. But I think 00:05:44.209 --> 00:05:46.670 there's a lot we are. yet to find out in terms 00:05:46.670 --> 00:05:49.829 of how that's going to roll. Okay. Now, one of 00:05:49.829 --> 00:05:52.769 the things that I've been banging the drum about 00:05:52.769 --> 00:05:54.550 is something called the alternative enclosure. 00:05:55.089 --> 00:05:58.529 God rest his soul, Todd Cochran had a show with 00:05:58.529 --> 00:06:00.910 Rob Greenlee and he had an audio feed and a video 00:06:00.910 --> 00:06:03.389 feed. And I kept saying, oh, come on, Todd, put 00:06:03.389 --> 00:06:06.410 the alternative enclosure, put the audio in the 00:06:06.410 --> 00:06:08.430 primary in the video and the blah and vice versa. 00:06:08.610 --> 00:06:11.029 And never the twain was met. He never did it. 00:06:11.250 --> 00:06:14.560 Rob Greenlee has now done it since. One of the 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:17.060 things that we're asking Apple to do as an industry, 00:06:17.139 --> 00:06:20.639 I guess, is to support it. But I think Triton, 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:23.600 or as part of Omni, have now supported the alternative 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:26.379 enclosure. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. 00:06:26.500 --> 00:06:29.399 Yep. What do you think you're going to use it 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.199 for then? Because if the primary is MP4, what 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:34.519 do you think people start to use the alternative 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:38.319 enclosure for when they're your customer? Yeah, 00:06:38.379 --> 00:06:40.560 a lot of our customers have their owned and operated 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.689 apps. A lot of our customers have their own aggregator 00:06:43.689 --> 00:06:45.910 apps that pull in content from the rest of the 00:06:45.910 --> 00:06:48.990 podcast ecosystem as well. And so I think it's 00:06:48.990 --> 00:06:50.750 too early to understand what they want to do 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:53.310 with it. But we knew that there was a groundswell 00:06:53.310 --> 00:06:56.009 that is asking for the alternative enclosure 00:06:56.009 --> 00:06:58.550 URL. And so it's just our job to make sure that 00:06:58.550 --> 00:07:00.189 all the technical opportunities are there for 00:07:00.189 --> 00:07:02.629 publishers to choose how they want. I think it'll 00:07:02.629 --> 00:07:05.430 be mostly in their own apps because you want 00:07:05.430 --> 00:07:08.050 to, again, that driver's seat analogy, you want 00:07:08.050 --> 00:07:10.610 to remain in that seat. especially to control 00:07:10.610 --> 00:07:13.050 costs of allowing people and where you want to 00:07:13.050 --> 00:07:16.589 distribute that video out. Okay. Now, along came 00:07:16.589 --> 00:07:18.949 Spotify, knocked on the door of Triton and said, 00:07:19.009 --> 00:07:21.769 hello, we're going to do video. What did you 00:07:21.769 --> 00:07:24.829 think about that and what has the relationship 00:07:24.829 --> 00:07:28.470 been? Yeah, that's a good question. My thoughts 00:07:28.470 --> 00:07:32.009 on Spotify have, and I'd say this to their face, 00:07:32.050 --> 00:07:33.329 and so I don't think they'd be upset if they're 00:07:33.329 --> 00:07:35.519 listening to this. It is a walled garden. It 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.180 has been historically. And in order to monetize 00:07:38.180 --> 00:07:41.399 on Spotify or upload a video, it really meant 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.339 cutting off your RSS feed. You know, I was speaking 00:07:44.339 --> 00:07:47.519 to a publisher just this morning who still uploads 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.480 the video into Spotify and the access to the 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:53.560 video audience is enough of a carrot for them 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:56.240 to cut off their advertising because obviously 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:58.740 it breaks RSS. No longer can you get dynamically 00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:01.740 inserted ads, programmatic or direct sold. And 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:05.319 so it's been... a hard sell, I think, historically 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:08.540 for publishers to think about that. It is fascinating 00:08:08.540 --> 00:08:11.639 that publishers think about YouTube video totally 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:14.339 different to audio first apps. Publishers seem 00:08:14.339 --> 00:08:17.399 to think of YouTube as this whole different platform. 00:08:17.620 --> 00:08:19.980 It doesn't matter if my ads appear in it. I'll 00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:22.720 just burn them in as video reads and I'll take 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:25.759 the YouTube money. That thinking hasn't pulled 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:28.560 across into Spotify, especially, which are doing 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.660 the same business model, which is you upload 00:08:30.660 --> 00:08:33.240 something separately to their system. And then 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:35.220 you allow them to monetize it if you're on their 00:08:35.220 --> 00:08:37.559 platform. But it really does split apart from 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.059 audio advertising. And so when they came to us, 00:08:41.100 --> 00:08:43.779 it's because they wanted to open the door to 00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:46.960 a greater amount of content on their system. 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:48.940 And so I think they came to us and Acast and 00:08:48.940 --> 00:08:51.320 Audioboom and a couple of others. And so we now 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.740 have access to an API that would allow publishers 00:08:53.740 --> 00:08:57.120 on Omni to push a video file out to Spotify. 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:00.960 It still does not allow for dynamic ad insertion. 00:09:01.340 --> 00:09:03.419 And I personally am very passionate about that. 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:05.860 And I think Triton's job is to ensure that the 00:09:05.860 --> 00:09:08.220 ads that you run appear in as many places as 00:09:08.220 --> 00:09:10.919 you have an audience for. And so I'm interested 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:14.080 to see how that develops over time and how they 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:16.080 respond to what Apple has put in the market. 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:19.039 And again, hopefully that rising tide lifts all 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:21.600 of our podcasting boats. Yeah. Before we get 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:23.919 into what Apple and you guys are doing today. 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:26.679 One of the interesting things is the revenue 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:29.519 model that Spotify put forward to creators was 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:31.320 that they get a percentage of the subscription 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:35.039 revenue. Now, they've never revealed the results 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.940 of that, and that's been quite telling. And we've 00:09:37.940 --> 00:09:40.399 had it for now over a year. So they have the 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:42.620 data, they're just not revealing, which suggests 00:09:42.620 --> 00:09:45.779 something anyway. Now, the other part of that 00:09:45.779 --> 00:09:48.399 is also we're hearing anecdotally quite a few 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:51.899 creators are now coming away from Spotify video 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:54.549 back to the audio only. so they can get into 00:09:54.549 --> 00:09:57.049 the span advertising market and also do dynamic 00:09:57.049 --> 00:10:00.330 ad insertion. So I think Spotify's got some rethinking 00:10:00.330 --> 00:10:02.549 to do, and I'll ask you a question about that 00:10:02.549 --> 00:10:06.629 in a minute. But fast forward then to today, 00:10:06.710 --> 00:10:10.330 and Apple last Monday came out with a bombshell 00:10:10.330 --> 00:10:13.590 announcement. We're going to be doing video HLS. 00:10:13.850 --> 00:10:17.309 Of course, timely, you'd already announced that 00:10:17.309 --> 00:10:19.309 you're going to be supporting HLS as a platform, 00:10:19.470 --> 00:10:22.250 so that was really good. So I'm guessing that 00:10:22.250 --> 00:10:24.389 was in line with what you were probably working 00:10:24.389 --> 00:10:26.669 with Apple on anyway. So you probably had early 00:10:26.669 --> 00:10:28.690 access because you weren't going to be just dropped 00:10:28.690 --> 00:10:31.470 into the, you know, by the way, here we go on 00:10:31.470 --> 00:10:33.350 Monday and here's a partner. So I'm sure you 00:10:33.350 --> 00:10:36.929 were given early access. But with the new way 00:10:36.929 --> 00:10:39.730 that it works as a secret API key, you deliver 00:10:39.730 --> 00:10:44.129 an HLS file playlist to Apple and then those 00:10:44.129 --> 00:10:48.289 ads get injected into the audio. That again now 00:10:48.289 --> 00:10:51.659 is. a new model that is in the market that gives 00:10:51.659 --> 00:10:54.059 you a really good competitive advantage. How 00:10:54.059 --> 00:10:57.820 have you found, as Triton, adopting to this new 00:10:57.820 --> 00:11:00.159 model? Have you had to change anything? Is it 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:02.399 just business as usual and we've just got on 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.120 with it? How's it been? At the moment, it's business 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:07.519 as usual. We still have a couple more weeks to 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:10.240 finish off the HLS build. And so now that we 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:12.200 can talk about it with publishers in the industry, 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:14.460 it has been received incredibly well. I feel 00:11:14.460 --> 00:11:17.440 like, again, that driver's seat, every publisher 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.029 wants that. Every publisher wants to access a 00:11:20.029 --> 00:11:22.629 video audience, but also maintain their revenue 00:11:22.629 --> 00:11:25.429 and their top and bottom lines. And so the conversations 00:11:25.429 --> 00:11:27.889 have been incredible in terms of how people are 00:11:27.889 --> 00:11:31.309 thinking about it. How we are approaching it, 00:11:31.450 --> 00:11:37.669 I think, is another layer of our video offering. 00:11:37.950 --> 00:11:41.970 And so it's not going to be for everyone. Video 00:11:41.970 --> 00:11:45.009 is expensive to create. And we should talk a 00:11:45.009 --> 00:11:48.179 little bit more about the... advertising structure 00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:51.379 that Apple is offering and how the HLS will be 00:11:51.379 --> 00:11:53.600 delivered. Like HLS will still be delivered via 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:56.639 download and auto downloads will still be enabled. 00:11:56.840 --> 00:11:59.259 And I think the jury is out on what advertiser 00:11:59.259 --> 00:12:02.039 appetite for video advertising in a video podcast 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:04.240 that's downloaded will be. So I think we're in 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.419 like a watch and wait there along with many publishers. 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:10.340 But in terms of HLS and the opportunities that 00:12:10.340 --> 00:12:13.379 affords podcasting to move into a more streaming 00:12:13.379 --> 00:12:16.340 focused world, I think is... the biggest upside 00:12:16.340 --> 00:12:19.740 that we are hoping for. So first of all, given 00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:21.940 that HLS is a streaming platform, it means that 00:12:21.940 --> 00:12:23.919 you're sending packets of data, not downloading 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:26.240 the whole file. So that should be a cost -effective 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:29.559 model for you as a host. But secondly, it now 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:32.320 gives you better metrics. You now get who's playing 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.960 the actual audio and video and how long they 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:37.350 did that for. The minute they stop playing, the 00:12:37.350 --> 00:12:39.870 packets stop getting delivered. So before you 00:12:39.870 --> 00:12:41.970 were talking about Spotify being a walled garden 00:12:41.970 --> 00:12:44.149 within many ways. Apple was also a walled garden. 00:12:44.210 --> 00:12:46.029 First party data wasn't given back to their host. 00:12:46.370 --> 00:12:48.590 Those that had done delegated delivery didn't 00:12:48.590 --> 00:12:51.210 get any benefit. There was no extra data coming 00:12:51.210 --> 00:12:53.210 back. So this feels like... Just the workflow 00:12:53.210 --> 00:12:56.250 saving. Yeah, exactly. And so this feels like 00:12:56.250 --> 00:12:59.690 you as a partner now are going to get first party 00:12:59.690 --> 00:13:01.730 data back because you're the ones delivering 00:13:01.730 --> 00:13:05.470 the video as a... hls file so you've got the 00:13:05.470 --> 00:13:08.769 information now that used to be encapsulated 00:13:08.769 --> 00:13:12.070 and controlled by apple i do think that is one 00:13:12.070 --> 00:13:15.330 of the beliefs out there and it's one of the 00:13:15.330 --> 00:13:16.730 conversations that we've been having especially 00:13:16.730 --> 00:13:19.809 with publishers but what is transmitted back 00:13:19.809 --> 00:13:23.990 is still largely in control of apple and so the 00:13:23.990 --> 00:13:26.929 reason we built hls and we're building that before 00:13:26.929 --> 00:13:29.360 the announcement is because, again, we have all 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:30.559 these publishers that have got their own and 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:32.659 operated apps. And we do believe that that is 00:13:32.659 --> 00:13:34.740 a nice way. If you could get to 10 % of listening 00:13:34.740 --> 00:13:37.700 and prove that like an ad was listened to, is 00:13:37.700 --> 00:13:40.220 that a big enough of a sample to stop the industry 00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.360 commentators from saying that, you know, podcast 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:43.820 ads aren't listened to, even though it's been. 00:13:44.169 --> 00:13:46.429 A decade in advertising. I'm the worst of those, 00:13:46.470 --> 00:13:48.990 yes. I saw James on LinkedIn with you the other 00:13:48.990 --> 00:13:51.950 day. Advertisers wouldn't come back if it wasn't 00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:53.950 working. And I think we are very unique as an 00:13:53.950 --> 00:13:56.070 industry. No one in the out -of -home industry 00:13:56.070 --> 00:13:59.110 talks about, well, are the eyes actually on the 00:13:59.110 --> 00:14:01.570 billboard? We know that advertising as a beast 00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:04.429 works and there are some assumptions built in. 00:14:04.590 --> 00:14:06.629 So with HLS and obviously it being streaming, 00:14:06.809 --> 00:14:10.590 yes, the protocol allows for that. But only if 00:14:10.590 --> 00:14:13.529 the player sends things back. And so, no, we 00:14:13.529 --> 00:14:16.850 don't get to see anything about first party data 00:14:16.850 --> 00:14:18.990 that Apple won't send us. And I think that's 00:14:18.990 --> 00:14:21.450 also a nice thing about podcasting, that it is 00:14:21.450 --> 00:14:24.190 a less privacy invasive version of other advertising 00:14:24.190 --> 00:14:27.049 that's out there. And so, no, we won't be able 00:14:27.049 --> 00:14:29.710 to see that, not on day one. As the industry 00:14:29.710 --> 00:14:31.950 moves, and I think Apple has shown they're quite 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:34.269 good at listening to industry feedback, my hope 00:14:34.269 --> 00:14:37.090 is that advertisers and publishers say, hey, 00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:39.730 we would love some extra data back. And in a 00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:42.179 way that kind of helps us control. the release 00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:44.500 of that data and the narrative around it to the 00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:46.720 advertising industry, as opposed to it just being 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:49.080 one day, it all just moves to streaming. Because 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.519 that's going to be hard to get our arms around 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:55.360 and talk about coherently, I think, to advertisers. 00:14:55.580 --> 00:14:57.840 And so this is a nice first step into that world, 00:14:57.940 --> 00:15:01.519 I hope. Do you think Apple will enable HLS in 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:04.120 the primary enclosure without this API, so within 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:07.220 the RSS model? Oh, I don't know. I don't know, 00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:09.840 generally. Okay. And that would be the ideal, 00:15:10.019 --> 00:15:11.639 that the step one was we'll do it through this 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:14.259 secret API because we want to control the ad 00:15:14.259 --> 00:15:16.940 revenue spend and measurement. Well, I mean, 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:18.559 they're listening to this primarily probably 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:20.840 to make sure I don't breach an NDA, but if they're 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:23.480 listening, it would be great. Yeah. It's okay. 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:25.419 We cut out all the bits that you're not allowed 00:15:25.419 --> 00:15:27.039 to say. No, no, don't say that because they'll 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:28.840 think that I breached it and then like you edited 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:31.399 it out. I didn't. I didn't. Anyway, let's get 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:36.440 back on track. So, okay. So we hope that... Apple 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:38.960 will do one of two things. A, allow HLS in the 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:40.980 primary enclosure, and B, support the alternative 00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:43.620 enclosure as well. So we'll see. That's a big 00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:46.980 step forward. We will, yes. It's so early days, 00:15:47.179 --> 00:15:49.379 and I think that, especially as the industry 00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:51.720 gives feedback, I think that what we have today 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:53.620 is going to be different to the next version 00:15:53.620 --> 00:15:55.899 of this episode we do in a year's time. Yeah, 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.120 I always wind up Apple saying they're one engineer 00:15:58.120 --> 00:15:59.960 that has now been moved on to another project 00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:02.120 anyway. So Spotify must be sitting there going, 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.940 hang on a minute, wait a minute. Apple has gone 00:16:05.940 --> 00:16:08.259 to these partners and they've said, you host 00:16:08.259 --> 00:16:10.480 it, you pay the cost of hosting and delivery, 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:13.659 and if there's any naughtiness in the video, 00:16:13.779 --> 00:16:17.139 you're liable, but you pay us a little transaction 00:16:17.139 --> 00:16:20.419 for every ad. And Spotify must be saying, that's 00:16:20.419 --> 00:16:22.580 a much better model than we've got right now, 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:24.779 where we're giving creators a percentage of revenue. 00:16:25.450 --> 00:16:27.889 Wish I knew the answer because to your earlier 00:16:27.889 --> 00:16:30.250 point, like none of this data has ever been released. 00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:32.429 I do think it's quite telling as well as an industry 00:16:32.429 --> 00:16:35.110 that we're all moving to video, but there's not 00:16:35.110 --> 00:16:37.549 really any revenue data out there. Like if the 00:16:37.549 --> 00:16:40.029 pot of gold was substantial at the end, I do 00:16:40.029 --> 00:16:43.710 think that's again, why I like our MP4 RSS and 00:16:43.710 --> 00:16:46.309 the HOS idea, because again, you control that 00:16:46.309 --> 00:16:49.090 and you can forecast and you can budget and you 00:16:49.090 --> 00:16:50.710 can understand like where your costs are going 00:16:50.710 --> 00:16:53.769 to be. I don't know what Spotify would be thinking 00:16:53.769 --> 00:16:58.100 at the moment. I would imagine that the rev share 00:16:58.100 --> 00:17:02.200 is probably greater than a CPM that they could 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:06.420 charge. I think YouTube, Spotify and Apple have 00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:08.559 been watching the industry and making adjustments. 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.059 There's a reason that Spotify announced that 00:17:11.059 --> 00:17:14.079 this API would be open to more platforms. And 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.680 so, yes, I think that they will adjust because 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:19.480 that's what they've done in the past, all three 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.650 of these platforms, how they adjust. and how 00:17:22.650 --> 00:17:25.490 they position themselves uniquely in market compared 00:17:25.490 --> 00:17:28.609 to YouTube and Apple, while they're all essentially 00:17:28.609 --> 00:17:31.990 fighting over audience, and we are just hoping 00:17:31.990 --> 00:17:34.509 to catch some benefits as an industry on the 00:17:34.509 --> 00:17:36.650 way through. I don't know. If I was at Spotify, 00:17:36.950 --> 00:17:39.029 I would be thinking about a different model, 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:41.970 for sure. Yeah, I think it has to be a conversation 00:17:41.970 --> 00:17:44.609 that's going on. Now, you've got the title of 00:17:44.609 --> 00:17:46.410 Chief Revenue Officer, so I'm going to ask you, 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:49.769 what do you think will be the uptake then of... 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.400 People now saying they want to put their ads 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:57.940 into video on Apple because it's a fairly niche 00:17:57.940 --> 00:18:00.440 thing to do as well. So, you know, we talked 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:04.099 about the uptake of MP4 into Apple because the 00:18:04.099 --> 00:18:06.660 UI and the UX doesn't really lend itself. And 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:09.640 if you're then taking the time, effort and energy 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:12.779 to put a video up and to get ads put into it 00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:16.559 and then distributed to Apple and the UI is not 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:19.579 supportive of it. Again, must have some sort 00:18:19.579 --> 00:18:21.720 of early predictions of where you think the percentage 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:25.980 will be in uplift of revenue. I'm a little sceptical, 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.180 personally. I think that, especially on day one, 00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:33.539 the opportunity of putting ads into a video podcast 00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:37.980 on Apple exists. Whether that's 1%, 10 % or more, 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:42.019 I think in the initial phase, those numbers feel 00:18:42.019 --> 00:18:46.480 right to me. I think the jury is out on how existing 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.099 advertisers will respond to what Apple is offering. 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.940 There's a video advertiser that exists right 00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:55.640 now in the industry, like writ large in advertising, 00:18:55.940 --> 00:18:58.299 and they are used to getting very specific video 00:18:58.299 --> 00:19:00.460 metrics back. They are used to getting average 00:19:00.460 --> 00:19:02.440 view duration and all the things that YouTube 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:06.700 give. I don't know how they're going to respond 00:19:06.700 --> 00:19:10.240 to this new offering, which is a primarily audio 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:14.579 first audience. listening to audio ads or getting 00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:18.519 video ads in their video show but as a download 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.759 and as an impression that market size could be 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:23.920 substantial and it's obviously why we have jumped 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.240 at this opportunity because it is like the next 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.380 kind of meaningful revenue move will existing 00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:31.579 advertisers who already understand how podcast 00:19:31.579 --> 00:19:34.099 downloads work be the first ones to come in like 00:19:34.099 --> 00:19:36.740 i feel like the first step will be transmitting 00:19:36.740 --> 00:19:39.299 maybe like a logo or you could do product placement 00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:41.559 for the advertiser now in the show if you have 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:43.539 a sponsorship. There are other ways to drive 00:19:43.539 --> 00:19:46.440 a CPM higher, I think, and to show that there 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.460 is a new audience on Apple and maybe the revenue 00:19:48.460 --> 00:19:51.339 growth in general, if the CPM stays flat, is 00:19:51.339 --> 00:19:54.339 what makes up the difference. Basically, my quantifications 00:19:54.339 --> 00:19:57.980 are, I hope so, I think so. I don't know what 00:19:57.980 --> 00:19:59.799 that number is. And they haven't launched yet. 00:19:59.900 --> 00:20:02.019 Like, ask me in two months and I'll tell you 00:20:02.019 --> 00:20:05.240 what I can. Now, looking... Beyond that then, 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:07.079 one of the interesting things I wanted to cover 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:10.559 off with you was where you see the market going. 00:20:10.660 --> 00:20:13.200 Now, Triton released a report recently, which 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:17.160 was a state of podcasting 2025. And in it, I 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.660 think the result was 7 % watch video as a dedicated 00:20:20.660 --> 00:20:24.400 mechanism. The middle ground was about 80 % and 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.299 the remainder was just audio only. So can you 00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:29.940 really extrapolate that, you know, the audience 00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:33.119 is moving away from audio to video or is it? 00:20:33.639 --> 00:20:35.920 everyone's just happy to mix and match. What 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.960 did you take as a summary of that report? The 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.039 report was fast. We've had amazing pickup on 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:42.599 that report, and I think it's because it does 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.339 show the nuance that does matter between creators 00:20:45.339 --> 00:20:48.819 and advertisers. There's a lot of industry commentating 00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:52.039 around podcasting Zed Long Live videos, which 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:54.539 I don't subscribe, like I said at the top, an 00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:57.259 audio file, and I want to listen because, you 00:20:57.259 --> 00:20:58.980 know, it's just how I choose to consume this 00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:01.769 content. But I think the report showed that That 00:21:01.769 --> 00:21:04.210 is still true. Like, yes, there is a watch only 00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:07.910 audience, but there is still like nearly 13 % 00:21:07.910 --> 00:21:11.009 listening exclusively via audio. And then we 00:21:11.009 --> 00:21:13.329 showed that show genre consumption is dependent 00:21:13.329 --> 00:21:15.990 on the genre. And so like history, for instance, 00:21:16.089 --> 00:21:19.210 is very audio first. I think we also showed that 00:21:19.210 --> 00:21:21.950 sports and music lent more towards video, which 00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:26.450 makes sense because as a consumer of media, there 00:21:26.450 --> 00:21:28.069 are things that you sometimes want to watch and 00:21:28.069 --> 00:21:29.609 there are things that you sometimes kind of want 00:21:29.609 --> 00:21:35.019 to listen. And so I do think that Apple getting 00:21:35.019 --> 00:21:38.619 into the game is a unique audience. YouTube is 00:21:38.619 --> 00:21:41.299 video first. This is a consumer base that is 00:21:41.299 --> 00:21:44.799 very video focused, video first. And so, of course, 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.359 all the data to date has been about people wanting 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.279 to watch podcasts. Apple podcast is a primarily 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.960 audio first medium and the way that they are 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:56.309 pushing it out. I do think it's a different audience 00:21:56.309 --> 00:21:59.150 there and how they choose to engage between the 00:21:59.150 --> 00:22:01.650 video and audio will be really hopefully tasty 00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:04.910 data and really quite telling because I do think 00:22:04.910 --> 00:22:07.150 that as an industry, we need to remember that 00:22:07.150 --> 00:22:10.390 audio first is podcasting. Do you know what I 00:22:10.390 --> 00:22:12.589 mean? Like we're such an interesting beast. Like 00:22:12.589 --> 00:22:14.890 a book can be an audio book, but it's adapted 00:22:14.890 --> 00:22:18.109 differently for TV or movies. And yet we have 00:22:18.109 --> 00:22:20.829 decided that like our visual version of the shows 00:22:20.829 --> 00:22:23.960 is the same as the audio version. And I think 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:25.859 that's telling in the data based on the audience 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:29.960 numbers, because how people choose to consume, 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.000 if it's an audio -first experience, makes sense 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:35.059 that they're kind of that 80 % are swapping between 00:22:35.059 --> 00:22:37.460 the two, because sometimes it might be interesting 00:22:37.460 --> 00:22:40.720 enough to watch, and other times it's still audio 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:42.559 -first and powerful. It's like a relationship 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:45.940 in your ears. And again, I think we will let 00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:49.579 the market decide, but YouTube claims that the 00:22:49.579 --> 00:22:52.069 market's moving their way. Now, one of the new 00:22:52.069 --> 00:22:55.569 entrants into the market is Netflix. Yes. Which, 00:22:55.609 --> 00:22:58.549 surprise, I mean, is it cheap TV? Is it filling 00:22:58.549 --> 00:23:01.930 out the schedule because they can't? Or is it 00:23:01.930 --> 00:23:04.049 the fact that, I think I said this to James, 00:23:04.190 --> 00:23:08.210 I watch YouTube during the day and I watch Netflix 00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:11.549 at night. And the two never really mix. That's 00:23:11.549 --> 00:23:13.230 from a Brit. Of course, I understand YouTube 00:23:13.230 --> 00:23:16.029 in the North American market is also a primary 00:23:16.029 --> 00:23:18.349 channel. But generally, that's how I see it. 00:23:19.819 --> 00:23:23.279 Has Triton got a relationship with Netflix? Will 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.980 you be working with any of those podcast platforms? 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.079 Will you be serving ads? Or is there nothing 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.660 at all that works between the two of you? At 00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:33.019 the moment, Netflix are doing licensing deals 00:23:33.019 --> 00:23:35.859 direct with the publishers and creators. And 00:23:35.859 --> 00:23:37.960 so they're just getting the video file separately 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:40.920 and then pushing onto their own servers. And 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.180 so there's no technical gateway there between 00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:45.480 us. There are other apps that have come to us 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:47.299 and said that they would like to get the video 00:23:47.299 --> 00:23:50.440 versions onto their podcast apps. I think that 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:54.119 the licensing model in podcasting, so funny with 00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:55.700 Netflix and Hulu getting into it. You know that 00:23:55.700 --> 00:23:58.039 meme with the butterfly and it's like, is this 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:00.319 a podcast? I forget who it was. I listened to 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.299 a podcast called The Town and there was a wonderful 00:24:02.299 --> 00:24:06.079 woman on there who I will now butcher what she 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.000 said, which is Netflix and these entertainment 00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:11.750 giants. are not getting into podcasting because 00:24:11.750 --> 00:24:15.029 they want to be in podcasting. They have an audience 00:24:15.029 --> 00:24:16.890 who are looking for a certain type of content 00:24:16.890 --> 00:24:19.750 and podcasting has a lot of content and they 00:24:19.750 --> 00:24:22.049 are marrying that up and then using the halo 00:24:22.049 --> 00:24:24.890 effect of podcasting to try and hopefully move 00:24:24.890 --> 00:24:26.890 an audience there as well. And so it's just content 00:24:26.890 --> 00:24:29.509 being found by an audience. I don't imagine a 00:24:29.509 --> 00:24:31.150 world where Netflix and others are pulling from 00:24:31.150 --> 00:24:33.890 the RSS feed or even looking to a podcast host 00:24:33.890 --> 00:24:36.349 like us to get that file because their systems 00:24:36.349 --> 00:24:39.349 are built specifically for video in a very specific 00:24:39.349 --> 00:24:41.839 way. I am interested to see what happens with 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.380 Apple TV. We're not pushing 4K, to your point 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:49.140 about costs, but maybe Apple TV puts podcasts 00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:51.819 there as like follow -up to the shows the way 00:24:51.819 --> 00:24:54.079 that Disney Plus is doing potentially. And maybe 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:56.299 because they already have the relationship on 00:24:56.299 --> 00:24:58.359 the Apple podcast side, maybe that's an easier 00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:01.099 doorway, especially onto mobile devices. But 00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:03.720 no, Netflix and the entertainment industry writ 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.079 large are doing what they want to do and calling 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.759 what they want to call a podcast. No shade. Yeah, 00:25:08.819 --> 00:25:10.039 in the marketing departments, I think you're 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:11.680 spot on. Like, are you using the halo effect? 00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:14.119 This is a podcast. No, it's not a podcast. It's 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:17.119 not even a podcast on YouTube. Yes, yes. And 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:19.579 then we get, like, looked at like the insane 00:25:19.579 --> 00:25:22.160 ones because we are pushing our glasses up our 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:25.319 nose and saying, but it's not an RSS feed. And 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.579 then we immediately lose the media argument at 00:25:27.579 --> 00:25:29.900 that point. And so, you know, that's fine. I'll 00:25:29.900 --> 00:25:32.299 take the halo effect on our side as well. All 00:25:32.299 --> 00:25:34.400 the work that Adam Curry does and Dave Jones 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:36.119 and the rest of the podcasting 2 .0 community 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.480 is all about enhancing the RSS feed. It's the 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.720 metadata. It's not about... Yes, 100%. And therefore 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.140 a podcast without an RSS feed really is irrelevant 00:25:44.140 --> 00:25:46.720 to me because it doesn't involve any of the work 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:48.160 we've been doing for the last three or four years. 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.220 Okay. And final question, Sharon. One of the 00:25:51.220 --> 00:25:53.420 interesting things is we're seeing a lot of content 00:25:53.420 --> 00:25:57.480 go towards premium content. We've seen big numbers 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.140 really from Patreon, $2 billion paid out to content 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:04.480 creators. Supercast sold to fundamentally Fox 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.339 and they were paying out $26 million to their 00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:11.740 top 10 creators. How do you see the market going 00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:14.680 between the advertising and the premium content? 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:16.920 And how does Triton deal with that? Do you provide 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:19.819 premium content capabilities as well? Okay, yes, 00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:21.960 we do. And I have thought about this for a long 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.599 time. So we built a product called Secure Distribution 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.960 five years ago, again, for the publishers that 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.230 have got their owned and operated apps. And it 00:26:31.230 --> 00:26:33.690 allowed them to sell subscriptions without having 00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:35.910 to think about a third -party platform. So if 00:26:35.910 --> 00:26:37.710 you have your own membership database and your 00:26:37.710 --> 00:26:39.930 own payment gateway, you can sell that and retain 00:26:39.930 --> 00:26:42.450 a lion's share of the revenue. Again, that driver's 00:26:42.450 --> 00:26:44.890 seat analogy that's really important to us. But 00:26:44.890 --> 00:26:48.029 we do integrate with Spotify Open Access. And 00:26:48.029 --> 00:26:50.430 then we were one of the launch partners that 00:26:50.430 --> 00:26:53.789 Apple chose as well for the premium feeds that 00:26:53.789 --> 00:26:56.089 they have, the delegated delivery that you were 00:26:56.089 --> 00:26:58.990 talking about earlier. And so, yeah, I think 00:26:58.990 --> 00:27:01.670 that... especially as business models continue 00:27:01.670 --> 00:27:05.029 to change and as video plays a larger role. Our 00:27:05.029 --> 00:27:08.049 job is just allow for whatever model publishers 00:27:08.049 --> 00:27:11.069 want and mix and match. If you want a show that 00:27:11.069 --> 00:27:13.529 is premium, have a show that's premium. Going 00:27:13.529 --> 00:27:16.190 back to video, I would love it if some of those 00:27:16.190 --> 00:27:18.329 things were able to do premium video as well, 00:27:18.410 --> 00:27:20.289 because I think that also solves part of the 00:27:20.289 --> 00:27:22.690 advertising conundrum with video podcasting. 00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:26.309 So no, I mean, 100%, I think paid audiences work 00:27:26.309 --> 00:27:28.920 for a very specific type of show. I don't know 00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:32.000 that it works for podcasting, you know, as an 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.420 industry writ large because the content's been 00:27:34.420 --> 00:27:36.839 available and ad supported for so long. But for 00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:39.299 a very specific show with a very engaged audience 00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:41.680 and a huge fan base, I think it's an amazing 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:44.299 business model. Now, if I want to find out more 00:27:44.299 --> 00:27:47.200 about Triton, Omni, Spreaker, everything that 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:51.150 you guys do, where would I go? Head up to tritondigital 00:27:51.150 --> 00:27:53.650 .com is the best port of call. There's a blog 00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:55.930 there. There's like a whole pile of information 00:27:55.930 --> 00:27:57.769 that we keep updated around what's going on in 00:27:57.769 --> 00:28:00.269 the industry and what we're up to and a way to 00:28:00.269 --> 00:28:01.569 get in touch with us there through the contact 00:28:01.569 --> 00:28:04.609 form. Cool. And last and most important question, 00:28:04.769 --> 00:28:07.589 will we be seeing you for a beer in London? Yes, 00:28:07.609 --> 00:28:10.190 I will definitely be there. Yes, looking forward 00:28:10.190 --> 00:28:12.230 to it. Violet of the podcasting calendar of the 00:28:12.230 --> 00:28:15.369 year, honestly. Excellent. Sharon, thank you 00:28:15.369 --> 00:28:17.809 so much. Congratulations to everything that you 00:28:17.809 --> 00:28:19.809 guys are doing. It must be exciting right now 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:21.549 with all the things that are changing and moving 00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:24.450 around. It gets audio, video, HLS subscription. 00:28:24.630 --> 00:28:26.890 It's a good time to be in podcasting, I think. 00:28:27.289 --> 00:28:29.089 It's always been a great time. I've said it's 00:28:29.089 --> 00:28:31.470 every year that I've been in the industry, that 00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:34.190 it's a great time to be in the industry and an 00:28:34.190 --> 00:28:36.170 interesting time to be in the industry as like 00:28:36.170 --> 00:28:38.650 everything kind of changes. So it's continuing 00:28:38.650 --> 00:28:41.509 to be another one in 2026. Brilliant. See you 00:28:41.509 --> 00:28:41.809 soon, mate.