WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.120 We're joined by a good friend of the show. His 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:04.759 name is Justin Jackson. He is the co -founder 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:07.400 and CEO of Transistor. Hello, Justin. How are 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:09.720 you? Good morning. I'm doing well. This is the 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:11.480 earliest I've ever gotten up for an interview 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:15.980 ever. Excellent. Strike one for me. Now, well, 00:00:16.059 --> 00:00:18.339 the reason you're up so early is because Apple 00:00:18.339 --> 00:00:20.879 dropped a bombshell yesterday. It was a Monday. 00:00:20.980 --> 00:00:24.140 Easy Apple. Yeah. What did they tell us? What 00:00:24.140 --> 00:00:28.539 did they drop, Justin? They announced HLS video 00:00:28.539 --> 00:00:32.340 support. inside of Apple podcasts, something. 00:00:32.340 --> 00:00:34.640 Don't we just go woohoo, that's what we want. 00:00:34.939 --> 00:00:38.500 This is what, at the Podcast Standards Project, 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:40.799 we've been talking about this. We've been talking 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.759 about video from the beginning. Back in 2022, 00:00:43.979 --> 00:00:46.520 I think our first blog post mentions adding video, 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.799 more support for video. And we really ramped 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:54.880 up discussions and demos and specs for HLS video 00:00:54.880 --> 00:01:02.560 in 2025. So even back in August, I said in particular 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:06.980 having Apple podcasts adopt HLS video would legitimize 00:01:06.980 --> 00:01:10.019 the standard and likely trigger widespread adoption 00:01:10.019 --> 00:01:14.200 across the entire podcast ecosystem. So here 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:16.879 it is, it was a surprise. No advanced warning 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:20.420 aside from a few select launch partners that 00:01:20.420 --> 00:01:25.040 they had. But overall, I think this is going 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:29.840 to be good. Overall, I am pleased. Overall, it's 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:33.560 nice to see Apple moving in this direction. It's 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:35.980 a very different approach than Spotify and YouTube. 00:01:36.700 --> 00:01:38.900 It's a bit of a different approach than we were 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:43.439 hoping for. But I think on the whole, this is 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:47.079 good news for the open podcast ecosystem. I remember 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:51.640 talking to Buzzsprout. probably in that 22 time 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.719 window where I said are you gonna support video 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:58.180 and I got a resounding no hell will freeze over 00:01:58.180 --> 00:02:01.040 before we do that because it's too expensive 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.359 why would we use mp4 blah blah blah and this 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:07.040 was just when YouTube was raising its little 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:09.280 head above the parapet and going we're about 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:11.620 to do podcasting everyone went oh my god here 00:02:11.620 --> 00:02:14.280 we go and there was a counter I was trying to 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:17.259 get hosts to do something and I was getting a 00:02:17.259 --> 00:02:20.139 deep strong no we're not going to do this and 00:02:20.139 --> 00:02:22.460 then the conversation around HLS was raised well 00:02:22.460 --> 00:02:24.819 is this an alternative way you know you don't 00:02:24.819 --> 00:02:27.439 download the whole lot maybe you stream elements 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:29.979 of it could that work and maybe charge it as 00:02:29.979 --> 00:02:32.780 a premium and that's when the PSP took it on 00:02:32.780 --> 00:02:34.860 board and I think you've been banging the drum 00:02:34.860 --> 00:02:37.080 very well for that and we've had meetings in 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:41.780 London I don't think what we got from Apple yesterday 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:45.199 was everything we wanted because, correct me 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:48.759 if I'm wrong, Justin, but HLS only works in the 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:52.759 Apple channels and it doesn't work in the main 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:56.520 podcasting app. No, I think it will work everywhere. 00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:58.740 I thought they're only going to support MP4 in 00:02:58.740 --> 00:03:01.659 the main app. Oh, I see. No, I think once podcasts 00:03:01.659 --> 00:03:06.680 adopt this, if you have HLS video enabled, then 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:08.819 it'll show up in the app. It'll show up in search. 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:11.639 It'll show up on their home screen if they feature 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:14.240 you. And hopefully, eventually, what I would 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:18.280 love is for them to also have that old switcher 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:22.080 at the top, which was in iTunes and even early 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:24.580 Apple podcasts. You could switch between show 00:03:24.580 --> 00:03:26.699 me all the audio only podcasts and then show 00:03:26.699 --> 00:03:29.659 me the podcast that support video. I think hopefully 00:03:29.659 --> 00:03:31.300 that's coming. But yeah, I think this will be 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:33.259 throughout the Apple podcast app. This is just 00:03:33.259 --> 00:03:36.020 their first release. We often criticize Apple. 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:40.500 And I think it's harder inside that machine than 00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:43.819 we give them credit for. And I think they have 00:03:43.819 --> 00:03:47.120 lots of constraints on their side. For example, 00:03:47.139 --> 00:03:50.000 I don't think they're being malicious when they 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.960 hold back information until launch day. It does 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.699 really suck. They told all podcast creators that 00:03:55.699 --> 00:03:58.979 it's coming. And so then, of course, every podcast 00:03:58.979 --> 00:04:01.939 hosting platform is gonna get inundated with 00:04:01.939 --> 00:04:04.250 customer support. Requests saying hey, what do 00:04:04.250 --> 00:04:06.590 you offer this yet? But I think they've got a 00:04:06.590 --> 00:04:09.849 lot of constraints on their side so I can appreciate 00:04:09.849 --> 00:04:13.669 that I think this is just the first announcement 00:04:13.669 --> 00:04:16.810 for example. This does not preclude them from 00:04:16.810 --> 00:04:19.949 eventually supporting HLS video in the alternate 00:04:19.949 --> 00:04:26.250 enclosure tag video has lots of difficult implementation 00:04:26.250 --> 00:04:31.540 factors like What are we going to do about explicit 00:04:31.540 --> 00:04:34.600 material? What are we going to do about truly 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:37.360 horrendous material that can be images that can 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.339 be uploaded as video? There's a lot of things 00:04:39.339 --> 00:04:43.339 to figure out there. So yeah, kudos to them for 00:04:43.339 --> 00:04:47.339 this initial launch. The ultimate test is that 00:04:47.339 --> 00:04:49.660 creators have to care. And so I think this is 00:04:49.660 --> 00:04:51.079 something else I've been thinking about a lot. 00:04:51.699 --> 00:04:56.649 We... the ecosystem and the industry and as well 00:04:56.649 --> 00:05:00.649 -meaning stewards of the open standard could 00:05:00.649 --> 00:05:04.709 say this is the way it should be and this is 00:05:04.709 --> 00:05:07.870 what we hope it to be but if creators don't use 00:05:07.870 --> 00:05:13.860 it and if consumers don't care then it doesn't 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:16.120 really matter what we implement. It doesn't even 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:19.560 matter if Apple supports it. Apple is a big deal 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:21.540 because they've got a lot of reach and they've 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:26.240 got a big install base, but unless creators start 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:31.620 using HLS Video and adding those podcasts to 00:05:31.620 --> 00:05:36.600 Apple, and then unless consumers start enjoying 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:42.060 that video and watching it, then it doesn't matter 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:44.560 what we want, what we care about, what we're 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.180 trying to push. What's exciting is that I think 00:05:48.180 --> 00:05:50.180 in the open ecosystem, we've been looking for 00:05:50.180 --> 00:05:54.199 a big platform partner that can at least give 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:58.600 us a chance to get the distribution. So they 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:00.459 emailed all of their podcast creators saying 00:06:00.459 --> 00:06:03.160 this is happening. It's in the discussion. People 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:05.939 were talking about it on Reddit. And again, we 00:06:05.939 --> 00:06:09.860 got lots of customers asking us about it. I was 00:06:09.860 --> 00:06:12.629 on holiday and I actually got The reason I found 00:06:12.629 --> 00:06:16.290 out is because customers were messaging me personally 00:06:16.290 --> 00:06:18.350 saying, hey, are you going to support this? So 00:06:18.350 --> 00:06:21.209 they have a lot of distribution with creators. 00:06:21.529 --> 00:06:24.810 And if they do the implementation right on the 00:06:24.810 --> 00:06:28.569 consumer side, and if they eventually add this 00:06:28.569 --> 00:06:32.410 to Apple TV and their whole ecosystem, this has 00:06:32.410 --> 00:06:36.110 a good chance of at least seeing if consumers 00:06:36.110 --> 00:06:39.319 care. And so, yeah, I'll be looking at that, 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:42.040 I think. But yeah, not everything we wanted, 00:06:42.139 --> 00:06:47.959 but I think it's a good first step. OK, so a 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:50.480 couple of questions come to mind. First of all, 00:06:50.779 --> 00:06:53.800 I think consumers, the younger consumers, certainly 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:56.420 if I look at my 26 year old and my 21 year old 00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:58.800 and their friends, where they consume YouTube 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.360 is they don't actually watch YouTube all the 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.660 time. It's there. It's in the background. The 00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:06.180 audio is playing. they can hear it, and then 00:07:06.180 --> 00:07:08.620 they'll switch their head to the video if there's 00:07:08.620 --> 00:07:11.660 something that's relevant. From my basic test 00:07:11.660 --> 00:07:14.899 with iOS 26 .4, which I think you need, it's 00:07:14.899 --> 00:07:17.899 the beta, so it's not the final version. They're 00:07:17.899 --> 00:07:20.620 doing what Spotify does is you upload a video 00:07:20.620 --> 00:07:23.680 and then when you want audio, they're fundamentally 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:26.040 just using the audio of the video. They're not 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.459 actually switching to an audio file. It brought 00:07:30.459 --> 00:07:33.100 up a really interesting question yesterday on 00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:36.199 LinkedIn where somebody asked me, should I just 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:39.800 produce video only now and let Apple, Spotify 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:43.560 and YouTube use the video? And then they will 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:46.860 switch it to audio in terms of just removing 00:07:46.860 --> 00:07:50.660 the visual image. And therefore do I no longer 00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:54.519 need to do an audio edit as well? Yeah, this 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:56.540 is actually one of those big unanswered questions 00:07:56.540 --> 00:08:00.959 and this came up as we were creating HLS demos 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:03.800 and then eventually had apps like true fans and 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:07.959 fountain support it which is Yeah, you could 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:11.339 so the way it works on true fans Correct me if 00:08:11.339 --> 00:08:14.240 I'm wrong is if you're streaming HLS video and 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:16.279 you switch to the audio version It actually switches 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.139 to the audio enclosure, right? Yes in practice 00:08:20.139 --> 00:08:23.149 what ended up and this is again, this is One 00:08:23.149 --> 00:08:26.230 of the, I think the most important things is, 00:08:26.449 --> 00:08:28.730 especially for the open podcast ecosystem, is 00:08:28.730 --> 00:08:31.149 we need to get out of the theoretical as soon 00:08:31.149 --> 00:08:34.309 as possible and into the real as soon as possible. 00:08:34.669 --> 00:08:37.649 So as soon as we released this, Steven Robles, 00:08:37.850 --> 00:08:40.690 who has the primary technology podcast, he was 00:08:40.690 --> 00:08:42.529 one of the first people to adopt it. He's like, 00:08:42.529 --> 00:08:44.889 I'm going to use that HLS enclosure on transistor. 00:08:45.629 --> 00:08:47.629 And then he was like, but wait a second. He's 00:08:47.629 --> 00:08:51.100 like, I produce a separate audio version. That's 00:08:51.100 --> 00:08:55.340 very distinct from my video version. But on True 00:08:55.340 --> 00:08:57.740 Fans and Fountain, when you switch between them, 00:08:58.419 --> 00:09:01.019 it's not one for one. The length of the file 00:09:01.019 --> 00:09:05.720 isn't the same. And so now we have a power user 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:07.779 that's saying, like, this doesn't really work 00:09:07.779 --> 00:09:11.320 for me. However, the paradigm that emerged on 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:13.899 Spotify is switched between audio and video. 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:17.919 And... They've kept that paradigm and they're 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:22.200 testing a lot of things and they're Consumers 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:25.740 apparently like that feature on Spotify YouTube 00:09:25.740 --> 00:09:28.559 music also launched with that same feature and 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.159 people apparently like that feature on YouTube 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:35.340 music and from a creator's perspective I often 00:09:35.340 --> 00:09:40.419 think about like the 80 90 95 98 percent of podcasts 00:09:40.419 --> 00:09:44.210 like 95 percent of podcasts are currently getting 00:09:44.210 --> 00:09:46.830 under a thousand downloads per episode. What 00:09:46.830 --> 00:09:48.490 about them? What are they going to do? And I 00:09:48.490 --> 00:09:51.710 think we, we often focus on the top end of the 00:09:51.710 --> 00:09:54.070 market. Like what are the top 20 podcasts and 00:09:54.070 --> 00:09:57.169 who are the power users like Steven Robles and 00:09:57.169 --> 00:10:00.669 what do they want? But the reality is, especially 00:10:00.669 --> 00:10:02.629 for the open ecosystem, we have to care about 00:10:02.629 --> 00:10:06.990 that 95 % who are just making a podcast for fun 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:09.230 or just making a podcast to make a little bit 00:10:09.230 --> 00:10:12.090 of money or just making a Dungeons and Dragons 00:10:12.090 --> 00:10:14.730 podcast because they want to do something fun 00:10:14.730 --> 00:10:16.889 with their friends. What are they gonna do? I 00:10:16.889 --> 00:10:19.149 think most creators are just gonna wanna upload 00:10:19.149 --> 00:10:22.470 one video file and have that be their podcast. 00:10:23.409 --> 00:10:25.809 And yes, all of the audio nerds are gonna be 00:10:25.809 --> 00:10:28.950 like, you can't do that, you need to craft the 00:10:28.950 --> 00:10:32.169 audio just for audio. And sure, obviously, on 00:10:32.169 --> 00:10:34.230 the upper end of the market, people have all 00:10:34.230 --> 00:10:38.190 sorts of opinions. But the vast majority of creators, 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:40.570 I think, if they're gonna do video, are gonna 00:10:40.570 --> 00:10:44.690 wanna upload one video file. And by the way, 00:10:44.730 --> 00:10:46.850 they're gonna want it distributed to YouTube 00:10:46.850 --> 00:10:51.769 and Spotify. And what's exciting about this Apple 00:10:51.769 --> 00:10:54.009 announcement is it at least gives us an option 00:10:54.009 --> 00:10:56.450 in the open ecosystem that they can take if they 00:10:56.450 --> 00:11:00.669 want it. So that will also be available to them. 00:11:01.190 --> 00:11:03.690 And I think they're just gonna upload one video. 00:11:03.730 --> 00:11:06.889 So I think we're gonna see more people that are 00:11:06.889 --> 00:11:10.669 recording. their podcast, at least the creators 00:11:10.669 --> 00:11:13.070 I talk to and the surveys we've done of transistor 00:11:13.070 --> 00:11:16.570 customers, most creators are recording video 00:11:16.570 --> 00:11:19.070 already. You can do it in... Well, we are here. 00:11:19.070 --> 00:11:22.830 You can do it in StreamYard. Yeah. So if you're 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:26.370 doing it already, all you have to do then is 00:11:26.370 --> 00:11:29.490 switch your editing technique to now instead 00:11:29.490 --> 00:11:32.110 of editing the audio waveform, I'm editing the 00:11:32.110 --> 00:11:35.490 video and audio waveform at the same time. It's 00:11:35.490 --> 00:11:38.370 a little bit more time to edit. Again, for a 00:11:38.370 --> 00:11:40.230 regular creator, it's just going through, adding 00:11:40.230 --> 00:11:42.409 a little bit of music, maybe normalizing the 00:11:42.409 --> 00:11:45.929 audio, if you're lucky, and maybe cutting out 00:11:45.929 --> 00:11:53.169 a few spots. Yeah, so I think, yeah, if I was 00:11:53.169 --> 00:11:55.330 advising creators, and what I have been advising 00:11:55.330 --> 00:12:01.590 creators is just create a video and edit that. 00:12:01.710 --> 00:12:04.570 export the video, export the audio, that's your 00:12:04.570 --> 00:12:06.529 podcast. They're the same length, they're the 00:12:06.529 --> 00:12:09.990 same thing. And I think especially with this 00:12:09.990 --> 00:12:14.990 switching paradigm, having a separate audio version 00:12:14.990 --> 00:12:17.730 from video version, I don't know what we're gonna 00:12:17.730 --> 00:12:20.029 do about that, but from the app side, they've 00:12:20.029 --> 00:12:22.429 gotta solve that problem. And I think they're 00:12:22.429 --> 00:12:24.509 just gonna be like, well, if they start watching 00:12:24.509 --> 00:12:28.409 the video, we're just gonna switch. And they 00:12:28.409 --> 00:12:30.330 turn off their screen. We're going to continue 00:12:30.330 --> 00:12:33.929 to use that video version Can't see another way 00:12:33.929 --> 00:12:38.710 of managing that problem Okay, so a couple of 00:12:38.710 --> 00:12:40.629 other things that came out the announcement I 00:12:40.629 --> 00:12:43.169 want to ask your thoughts for first of all what's 00:12:43.169 --> 00:12:45.649 interesting about the announcement is YouTube 00:12:45.649 --> 00:12:49.409 and Spotify have promised dynamic ad insertion 00:12:49.409 --> 00:12:51.710 for a while, but neither deliver. It's a Spotify 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.580 are seeing content creators losing money right 00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:58.940 now with their video solution on Spotify, because 00:12:58.940 --> 00:13:03.320 it's a percentage of subscription with no DAI. 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:06.080 YouTube have promised DAI, but there isn't any. 00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:09.059 So if you're uploading to Spotify or YouTube, 00:13:09.139 --> 00:13:11.379 you have to remove all your ads. It can do host 00:13:11.379 --> 00:13:13.600 read ads, but you can't do dynamic ads, right? 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:19.070 Now, with this announcement of leapfrog the pair 00:13:19.070 --> 00:13:22.129 and go, yeah, we'll do DAI through our partners 00:13:22.129 --> 00:13:24.529 and you can now do it through Apple channels. 00:13:25.350 --> 00:13:28.210 So will we see Spotify and YouTube respond, I 00:13:28.210 --> 00:13:31.710 suppose, is the question. I mean, YouTube is 00:13:31.710 --> 00:13:35.009 already doing dynamic ads of some sort with a 00:13:35.009 --> 00:13:38.090 select few of their creators, so they might not 00:13:38.090 --> 00:13:44.259 be that far behind. Yeah, it'll be really interesting. 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.259 It was interesting to see who showed up for all 00:13:47.259 --> 00:13:50.019 of those HLS discussions that the podcast standards 00:13:50.019 --> 00:13:55.899 project held because all of a sudden folks from 00:13:55.899 --> 00:13:58.059 the industry that had never attended a meeting 00:13:58.059 --> 00:14:01.659 were attending and a lot of them were from the 00:14:01.659 --> 00:14:08.919 large ad network companies and I think from their 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:12.269 perspective They're thinking how are we going 00:14:12.269 --> 00:14:16.090 to battle this wall these walled gardens if people 00:14:16.090 --> 00:14:18.909 are now uploading video to Spotify and that takes 00:14:18.909 --> 00:14:22.789 them out of the dynamic ad insertion pipeline 00:14:22.789 --> 00:14:26.789 and takes them out of our ability to track downloads 00:14:26.789 --> 00:14:30.850 and If people are uploading to YouTube while 00:14:30.850 --> 00:14:33.669 we can't dynamically insert ads in there at all 00:14:33.669 --> 00:14:37.879 they're getting squeezed out and so I think from 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:39.720 their perspective, this Apple announcement is 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:43.980 very interesting because it gives them a place 00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:50.460 to do that. And again, often we talk about the 00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:53.960 podcasting market using overall averages, like 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.360 overall Spotify is at, I don't know, 36 % and 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:01.860 Apple's at 15 and YouTube's at whatever. But 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:04.120 when you actually slice up, for example, the 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:07.919 top 20 podcasts, A lot of them, their primary 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:12.799 audience is on Apple. And so I think for publishers 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:15.399 of those shows where it's like we have a sizable 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:18.919 audience on Apple podcasts, that audience also 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:24.620 often skews their higher value customer or higher 00:15:24.620 --> 00:15:29.179 value consumer for target ads to. And so I think. 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.289 Yeah, I think there was a. Definitely an appetite 00:15:33.289 --> 00:15:37.230 from the big ad networks and publishers to have 00:15:37.230 --> 00:15:40.889 some sort of solution on their side. But listen, 00:15:41.350 --> 00:15:43.950 this is, there's multiple, we're talking about 00:15:43.950 --> 00:15:46.889 multiple markets now. We're talking about the 00:15:46.889 --> 00:15:50.649 market for advertising. And advertisers have 00:15:50.649 --> 00:15:54.269 lots of options and they make decisions, all 00:15:54.269 --> 00:15:56.450 sorts of decisions based on all sorts of criteria. 00:15:56.870 --> 00:15:58.830 Like they could spend money on Google AdWords, 00:15:58.909 --> 00:16:01.730 they can spend money on... ads and chat gbt they 00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:06.629 can spend money on ads on amazon prime so they 00:16:06.629 --> 00:16:11.149 have a lot of options and they're going to choose 00:16:11.149 --> 00:16:14.809 whatever is giving them results so if if all 00:16:14.809 --> 00:16:20.330 of a sudden i know triton is selling ads ad impressions 00:16:20.330 --> 00:16:24.129 on apple podcast video and those are delivering 00:16:24.129 --> 00:16:28.529 really good return on investment then people 00:16:28.529 --> 00:16:32.720 will keep It'll it will work in that way if it 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:35.500 doesn't then they'll they'll put their money 00:16:35.500 --> 00:16:39.799 in YouTube ads are fairly easy to book YouTube's 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:42.820 ad platform is definitely has a lot of advantages 00:16:42.820 --> 00:16:49.279 as well. So the problem on YouTube is that a 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:52.179 lot of kind of the desirable customers are paying 00:16:52.179 --> 00:16:56.460 for YouTube premium and So this is another interesting 00:16:56.460 --> 00:17:01.120 thing is how is this on Apple going to all converge? 00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:04.119 Are people going, is this also going to, I imagine 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:06.200 it would partner with Apple Podcast subscriptions, 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:10.980 right? So now you're going to be able to say, 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.680 oh, this is actually the premium subscriber. 00:17:14.019 --> 00:17:19.359 And so Apple will know to just not have ads in 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:21.940 that stream. Spotify is trying to do something 00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:26.670 similar, I believe. So yeah, it's a... Yeah, 00:17:27.029 --> 00:17:29.150 interesting time and lots of moving pieces that 00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:34.069 have to play themselves out eventually the ultimate 00:17:34.069 --> 00:17:38.829 Determining factor will be Do consumers watch 00:17:38.829 --> 00:17:41.849 these videos if they do watch these videos? Are 00:17:41.849 --> 00:17:45.029 they responding to the ads if that happens? Well 00:17:45.029 --> 00:17:48.049 advertisers keep booking them. There's a lot 00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:52.509 of unanswered questions right now Okay, so I 00:17:52.509 --> 00:17:54.910 fully agree. There's a lot of unanswered questions, 00:17:54.970 --> 00:17:57.910 but try and answer these two ones for me. Does 00:17:57.910 --> 00:18:03.690 the API requirement for hosts to be able to send 00:18:03.690 --> 00:18:07.990 HLS basically into the Apple channels mean that 00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:12.970 broken RSS? You still need to have an RSS feed. 00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:19.210 And it sounds like this is selective in the same 00:18:19.210 --> 00:18:22.569 way that you can upload a video to Spotify for 00:18:22.569 --> 00:18:26.690 one episode, but not the other. So there could 00:18:26.690 --> 00:18:28.990 be folks that are like, oh, I've got a big interview 00:18:28.990 --> 00:18:30.829 coming up. I want there to be a video version 00:18:30.829 --> 00:18:34.230 of that. And advertisers want to sponsor the 00:18:34.230 --> 00:18:37.369 video version. So I'm going to make an API call 00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:42.329 to add an HLS manifest URL to that episode. But 00:18:42.329 --> 00:18:46.000 my audio episodes remain the same. It's still, 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:51.839 you still need an RSS feed to submit to Apple 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:54.759 podcasts and for even for this to work. The RSS 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:58.240 feed is still the foundation, the key that gets 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:04.480 you in. I think understand why Apple's doing 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:08.960 it this way. In some ways, Like, for all we know, 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:10.779 we don't know what's motivating them, but for 00:19:10.779 --> 00:19:13.140 all we know, the motivation for all of this, 00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.180 including, for example, we haven't talked about 00:19:15.180 --> 00:19:18.200 it, but they're gonna charge some sort of fee, 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:20.319 Apple's gonna charge some sort of fee, first 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:22.400 time they've ever done this, for dynamically 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.579 inserted ads. So every time an ad runs, they're 00:19:24.579 --> 00:19:26.819 gonna get some sort of fee. We don't know if 00:19:26.819 --> 00:19:29.240 this is like a revenue opportunity for them or 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.380 this is just a convenience fee so that they can 00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:34.240 pay for all the lawyers that they've had to hire 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:39.329 for this. But I can understand, Why Apple would 00:19:39.329 --> 00:19:41.609 want the initial release of this to be like we 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:45.049 need to get people? We need to get hosts to sign 00:19:45.049 --> 00:19:47.349 a bunch of legal documents We need them to use 00:19:47.349 --> 00:19:50.049 an official channel, and then we need creators 00:19:50.049 --> 00:19:53.490 probably to sign something because there's just 00:19:53.490 --> 00:19:58.430 again As soon as you're dealing with images It 00:19:58.430 --> 00:20:01.869 is a whole new ballgame right like what can get 00:20:01.869 --> 00:20:06.269 uploaded to as images and video can be truly 00:20:06.269 --> 00:20:10.039 horrific And they have to have some sort of way 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:13.519 of managing it. And I can understand why they 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:15.980 would launch it this way. It doesn't preclude 00:20:15.980 --> 00:20:20.539 them from doing alternate enclosure and or even 00:20:20.539 --> 00:20:23.900 saying the primary enclosure. Like maybe eventually. 00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:27.039 And again, I don't know what folks in the ecosystem 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.480 will think about this, but. There is a world 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:37.190 where the HLS. HLS becomes the primary delivery 00:20:37.190 --> 00:20:40.369 mechanism and you just put your HLS manifest 00:20:40.369 --> 00:20:45.069 in the primary enclosure and HLS manifest can 00:20:45.069 --> 00:20:47.470 have all of your video versions at all the different 00:20:47.470 --> 00:20:51.190 resolutions and an audio version. So you can 00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:55.890 have it all in that text file basically and then 00:20:55.890 --> 00:21:01.670 that could be in the primary enclosure tag and 00:21:01.670 --> 00:21:04.740 maybe that's eventually where we're going. I 00:21:04.740 --> 00:21:08.740 don't think it breaks RSS. I think, again, right 00:21:08.740 --> 00:21:12.440 now you've got to add these via API, but that 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:15.019 doesn't necessarily mean it has to be that way. 00:21:15.819 --> 00:21:19.640 It doesn't preclude Apple from eventually accepting 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:23.740 these in other ways. It might mean actually that 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:30.559 we need to add... Yeah, it might just mean that 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.750 we add, I guess this is... Possible already but 00:21:33.750 --> 00:21:36.269 the idea that you might just add an alternate 00:21:36.269 --> 00:21:38.950 enclosure for certain episodes. So this episode 00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:43.009 has video So hey Apple you can pick it up here 00:21:43.009 --> 00:21:46.049 So yeah, I don't think it breaks RSS. I think 00:21:46.049 --> 00:21:49.730 Apple is still the best of the big companies 00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:53.210 is still the best supporter of the open ecosystem 00:21:53.210 --> 00:21:57.829 and this is a good move towards In that direction 00:21:57.829 --> 00:22:00.349 still right? It's still the creators hosting 00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:03.700 the video We can add that HLS manifest URL to 00:22:03.700 --> 00:22:06.700 the alternate enclosure tag and make the API 00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:10.960 call. That's fine. And maybe APIs also need to 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.640 be a part of the open ecosystem. That's another 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:19.720 piece to this is maybe that's another ingredient 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.619 that we need to be considering more often. I 00:22:23.619 --> 00:22:26.200 think the alternative enclosure is something 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:29.640 that we hope Apple will adopt. Yeah, I think. 00:22:30.340 --> 00:22:34.279 Manifest, as you pointed out, is a pseudo alternative 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:36.920 enclosure in its own right, because it has audio 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:40.019 and video capability. But I think within the 00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:43.339 podcasting community, I've heard other uses of 00:22:43.339 --> 00:22:45.480 the alternative enclosure. So for one, it could 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:47.779 be language translation, right? It doesn't want 00:22:47.779 --> 00:22:50.619 to be in that primary manifest, maybe. Secondly, 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.420 Mary at Fountain and myself have certainly been 00:22:53.420 --> 00:22:57.119 working on premium RSS, which is encrypted content, 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.380 which is an alternative to Apple. subscription 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:03.779 channels right so again there are other places 00:23:03.779 --> 00:23:05.819 that the alternative enclosure will have value 00:23:05.819 --> 00:23:08.960 within the open ecosystem not just for video 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.500 and audio yeah i think if this goes well for 00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:16.220 apple like if this test goes well they are there's 00:23:16.220 --> 00:23:19.220 lots of incentives for them to want to increase 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:21.940 the amount of video content on apple podcasts 00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:27.140 so if it turns out in these in this limited initial 00:23:27.140 --> 00:23:30.059 release that they're just seeing consumption 00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:32.359 on their side that's like, wow, people really 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:35.099 love this. People are really using it. Advertisers 00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:38.019 love it. Creators love it. Everybody loves it. 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:43.220 How can we get more of this content on our devices 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:49.640 and on eventually on Apple TV? And then to be 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:52.059 able to expand the pie, they might be like, well, 00:23:52.059 --> 00:23:55.019 let's adopt the alternate enclosure tag. So, 00:23:55.059 --> 00:23:58.980 yeah, I think it could still happen. And again, 00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:04.319 I think the Apple is a big company. They have 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.500 they have billions of users. They have a lot 00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:09.380 of they've got to do things and they have a lot 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:11.339 of lawyers. I don't know if I mentioned that. 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:14.099 So they've got to do things a certain way. That's 00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.279 just the reality of being a giant corporation. 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.460 And I'm just pleased that they continue on to 00:24:21.460 --> 00:24:26.619 support the open ecosystem. Is it is this perfect? 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:31.000 Not yet, but I'm still waiting. Sometimes we 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:34.400 just got to give them time. And again, I think 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.640 the encouraging part is that if a lot more creators 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:43.019 are publishing HLS manifests, then it's super 00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:45.859 easy for the host to say, oh, well, we now also 00:24:45.859 --> 00:24:48.000 support the alternate enclosure tech. For example, 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:52.240 like all these initial partners, right? Omni 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.670 and all them. For their advertisers, why wouldn't 00:24:56.670 --> 00:25:01.390 they also just add? That for the first time by 00:25:01.390 --> 00:25:03.970 the way I don't think any of them support the 00:25:03.970 --> 00:25:06.190 alternate enclosure tag right now any of these 00:25:06.190 --> 00:25:10.269 initial hosting providers so now What why not 00:25:10.269 --> 00:25:12.009 why not just add the alternate enclosure tag 00:25:12.009 --> 00:25:16.029 with HLS? Manifest in there and now pocket cast 00:25:16.029 --> 00:25:19.579 is saying they're gonna add HLS support True 00:25:19.579 --> 00:25:21.500 fans has it fountain has it you're gonna get 00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:23.319 way more distribution for your video. That's 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:25.359 what you want right you want to sell more of 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.920 those Those ad impressions, so I think it's gonna 00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:31.420 have a positive ripple effect throughout the 00:25:31.420 --> 00:25:34.619 industry Especially for apps that aren't Spotify 00:25:34.619 --> 00:25:40.039 YouTube or Apple Putting your co -founder CEO 00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:42.819 hat on for transistor. What does this mean for 00:25:42.819 --> 00:25:45.769 you? What do your customers think because? You're 00:25:45.769 --> 00:25:48.130 not an ad platform, you're not like Acast or 00:25:48.130 --> 00:25:50.109 Triton, so you're not delivering ads through 00:25:50.109 --> 00:25:53.029 dynamic head insertion, but you're obviously 00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:55.690 a partner of Apple, you do delegated delivery. 00:25:56.990 --> 00:26:00.509 So, day two after the announcement, what do you 00:26:00.509 --> 00:26:04.329 now say you're going to do for Transistor in 00:26:04.329 --> 00:26:06.829 terms of feature and function that you add? We've 00:26:06.829 --> 00:26:11.750 been talking about video for a long time. I got 00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:15.039 into podcasts because of video. I was watching 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.900 Dignation and Leo Laporte, all of those folks, 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:22.960 Tekzilla, all of those shows on the bus, on my 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.099 iPod Classic. That's how I got into podcasts, 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:31.779 was video first. So it's a big deal for me. As 00:26:31.779 --> 00:26:35.000 a creator, I think every show I've created in 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:38.019 the last four years has been video and audio. 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.079 We're recording the video already. got an editing 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:45.660 system where we just edit the video, and then 00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:47.940 we publish, export the video file, export the 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:50.359 audio file. That's just part of our routine. 00:26:51.339 --> 00:26:54.220 When we survey our customers, the majority are 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:57.619 doing video and audio. And so, to me, it's just 00:26:57.619 --> 00:27:01.759 undeniable. This is where it's going. Practically, 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.779 for a team of our size to build video infrastructure, 00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:08.640 it's definitely a heavier lift, but I've built 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:10.980 a prototype that I'm using myself right now. 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:17.119 I think it will be tiered like the adding HLS 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:19.759 video is definitely a bigger lift than uploading 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:23.720 video to YouTube and Spotify. But our customers 00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:28.839 are asking for it. And in my mind, it's just, 00:27:29.059 --> 00:27:31.740 we're always gonna charge value for value. So 00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:35.480 yes, if you want us to distribute your video 00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:39.000 to YouTube, Spotify, you'll pay for that if you 00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:43.859 want to. upload if you also want us to host it 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:49.019 and Stream the HLS video and have that on Apple 00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:52.740 then you'll pay for that as well So it's I think 00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:55.759 from a business perspective. There's an opportunity 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:58.160 there There's still some open questions about 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:00.420 it. It does add a lot more complexity to this 00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:03.299 nice little podcasting world We had I can completely 00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:06.799 understand Players in the industry that don't 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.759 want to touch video and I honestly I still think 00:28:09.930 --> 00:28:13.490 There will if you want to be an audio first or 00:28:13.490 --> 00:28:17.309 audio only Podcasting platform whether you're 00:28:17.309 --> 00:28:19.849 a hosting platform or a listening platform. I 00:28:19.849 --> 00:28:21.750 think there's still plenty of opportunity for 00:28:21.750 --> 00:28:24.009 that I think that market will continue to grow 00:28:24.009 --> 00:28:27.369 10 15 percent a year. I think it'll be fine but 00:28:27.369 --> 00:28:30.109 yeah, we're thinking about it and If you think 00:28:30.109 --> 00:28:34.150 about again, there's a type of creator now that 00:28:34.150 --> 00:28:37.069 is either selling their ads directly like acquired 00:28:37.069 --> 00:28:40.450 or they have They're selling their ads directly 00:28:40.450 --> 00:28:43.390 and they have a big subscriber paid subscriber 00:28:43.390 --> 00:28:47.329 base like Steven Robles Those for those folks 00:28:47.329 --> 00:28:49.710 they want this like as soon as they heard about 00:28:49.710 --> 00:28:52.750 this Apple thing their highest value listener 00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:57.490 is on Apple and They want to give them the best 00:28:57.490 --> 00:29:01.210 experience. So It's going to be depending on 00:29:01.210 --> 00:29:03.089 how you monetize. I think it's going to be interesting 00:29:03.089 --> 00:29:06.869 for a lot of different podcasters and Yeah, so 00:29:06.869 --> 00:29:08.890 it's something we're thinking about for sure 00:29:10.540 --> 00:29:14.160 Okay, switching hats, Justin, putting your PSP 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:19.539 hat on now. Which of the tags do you hope or 00:29:19.539 --> 00:29:23.380 expect Apple to adopt next? The easy lift would 00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:28.400 be the person tag. That's the one that I'm... 00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:31.200 Because the worry with the person tag is that... 00:29:30.809 --> 00:29:33.930 people are going to fake that there's somebody 00:29:33.930 --> 00:29:36.849 famous. But that's already happening on Apple 00:29:36.849 --> 00:29:38.769 Podcasts. They make mistakes all the time with 00:29:38.769 --> 00:29:42.849 their tagging system. So I think the one piece 00:29:42.849 --> 00:29:47.690 that we have talked about is how can we verify 00:29:47.690 --> 00:29:51.309 these people tags? Can we have a central repository 00:29:51.309 --> 00:29:55.250 for like, you just update, similar to Gravatar, 00:29:55.410 --> 00:29:57.789 you just update your Gravatar one place and then 00:29:57.789 --> 00:30:01.450 that syndicates. everywhere. So I think we need 00:30:01.450 --> 00:30:02.990 to have more discussions about that. But the 00:30:02.990 --> 00:30:06.670 person tag. Creators have looked at Apple's guest 00:30:06.670 --> 00:30:09.430 credits thing forever and gone, how come I can't 00:30:09.430 --> 00:30:12.230 access that? And yeah, so I think the person 00:30:12.230 --> 00:30:14.509 tag would be great. I think pod roll would be 00:30:14.509 --> 00:30:17.849 great. I love to see different implementations 00:30:17.849 --> 00:30:21.410 of that. True fans, pocket cast, like just like 00:30:21.410 --> 00:30:24.390 show other recommended by the creator. Like that's 00:30:24.390 --> 00:30:28.410 such a great opportunity and feels like a relatively 00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:31.569 small lift. And then the other one is the lit 00:30:31.569 --> 00:30:36.329 tag the live like now you've got As soon as you 00:30:36.329 --> 00:30:39.230 add video Here's the other thing that a lot of 00:30:39.230 --> 00:30:42.289 podcasters are doing is they're recording I do 00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:44.910 a show called the panel. We record the live version 00:30:44.910 --> 00:30:49.150 on YouTube and That's we're live. Hey, we're 00:30:49.150 --> 00:30:54.319 live and I think being able to I'll have an indicator 00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:57.000 in Apple podcast that your favorite show is live 00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:59.400 Just like you can see in other apps like true 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:02.400 fans and fountain like it's a really cool experience 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.160 to like show up live and be like oh Here we are 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.359 So and I've seen really simple implementations 00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:12.759 of live blue sky for example Just rolled out 00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:15.720 a live now thing where all you do is you put 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:18.619 in your twitch URL and say how long you're gonna 00:31:18.619 --> 00:31:22.200 be live for so There's no API. They're not checking 00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:24.140 anything. It's just like, hey, I'm going live 00:31:24.140 --> 00:31:26.759 on Twitch. Here's the URL and I'll be live for 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:29.759 two hours. And then when people are scrolling, 00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:31.619 they say, oh, Justin's live right now. I'm going 00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:36.720 to check that out. So those three are interesting 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:42.779 to me. And having, for example, pod roll on the 00:31:42.779 --> 00:31:45.039 episode level, I think could also be very interesting. 00:31:45.500 --> 00:31:47.660 That's not implemented, but that's something 00:31:47.660 --> 00:31:51.069 I'd love to see. as well so hey you enjoyed this 00:31:51.069 --> 00:31:54.609 episode here's five more episodes like this that 00:31:54.609 --> 00:31:57.450 you might enjoy i think those are all really 00:31:57.450 --> 00:32:04.170 good candidates the other two i would love to 00:32:04.170 --> 00:32:08.009 see i think one they won't one i would love them 00:32:08.009 --> 00:32:10.410 to see i expect them to see do as well is the 00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:13.130 location tag if you look at the transcript with 00:32:13.130 --> 00:32:16.859 timed links and you look at the fact that Transcription 00:32:16.859 --> 00:32:19.119 is basically a building block, in my opinion, 00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.319 for other services on top, layered on top. So 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.140 Apple's gone, okay, we can now read this with 00:32:25.140 --> 00:32:27.660 AI and we can highlight, I don't know, books, 00:32:27.819 --> 00:32:30.680 events, location, whatever. Right, look at that. 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.519 Now we can send it to more Apple services, right? 00:32:33.579 --> 00:32:36.920 It's very ecosystem block based. But you look 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:38.940 at what Spotify just announced last week, it's 00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.880 very similar. They're doing that as well now. 00:32:41.049 --> 00:32:44.309 But if you take location, given that both, well, 00:32:44.430 --> 00:32:47.069 given that Apple's got an Apple Maps product, 00:32:47.390 --> 00:32:49.529 it's not very hard to say that you could lay 00:32:49.529 --> 00:32:53.049 location on top with categories. You take one 00:32:53.049 --> 00:32:55.849 of my ideas has been I live here in Marlowe in 00:32:55.849 --> 00:32:58.650 Buckinghamshire, and my categories for PodNews 00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:01.950 Weekly Review are news, tech and business. So 00:33:01.950 --> 00:33:05.250 can I now, using the location tag, find other 00:33:05.250 --> 00:33:07.849 people who have podcasts local to me with those 00:33:07.849 --> 00:33:10.789 same categories? Oh, look, I can. And now suddenly 00:33:10.789 --> 00:33:13.910 I can do a real world meetup or I can do a guest 00:33:13.910 --> 00:33:16.789 interview or I can just talk to somebody locally 00:33:16.789 --> 00:33:19.029 about some of the challenges that we both have 00:33:19.029 --> 00:33:21.410 with podcasting. I think there's lots you can 00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:25.890 build. So I hope Apple implement location. The 00:33:25.890 --> 00:33:29.369 one that's frustrating me from the podcasting 00:33:29.369 --> 00:33:33.359 to the community is the publisher tag. Which 00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:35.880 is fundamentally what apple channels is if you 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:39.180 took laundry on apple you've got a combination 00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:42.900 of freemium and premium content within that channel 00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:46.940 and then what apple has just said is that okay 00:33:46.940 --> 00:33:50.599 we will provide. dynamic ad insertion into the 00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.839 free content within that channel. Um, but if 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.099 you want to pay a subscription for some of that 00:33:57.099 --> 00:33:59.359 content in that channel, then we'll remove the 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:01.579 ads or the ads aren't dynamically inserted, right? 00:34:01.779 --> 00:34:05.839 Yeah. We have had publisher feeds as a approved 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.579 tag for over two years. And I hate to say it, 00:34:09.579 --> 00:34:12.239 Oscar and Dovey Das from Fountain came up with 00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:14.579 the idea. True fans implemented the idea and 00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:17.559 no one else has implemented it. Um, we're sat 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:21.139 here. looking at Apple channels. Now, I think 00:34:21.139 --> 00:34:26.579 we have missed, I think, a big opportunity. So 00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:29.380 publisher feeds is one, I think, that has slipped 00:34:29.380 --> 00:34:31.920 through the net for a lot of the podcast community. 00:34:32.139 --> 00:34:34.400 I think that's a good one to bring up. Yeah, 00:34:34.579 --> 00:34:36.820 that there's one thing that, again, I just want 00:34:36.820 --> 00:34:39.840 to bring up again, which I think is important, 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:43.719 is ultimately, this has to be creator driven. 00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:46.219 Creators have to want to use these features. 00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:48.920 And You see it on the podcast hosting site all 00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:50.639 the time. We have all these things that they 00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.519 can use. They could use the person tag. They 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:54.880 can build themselves a little website and they 00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:56.980 can even choose a different theme on that website. 00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.980 What do most people do? Most people choose just 00:34:59.980 --> 00:35:02.119 whatever is the first website theme we give them. 00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:04.679 That's what they choose. Same colors, everything. 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.480 They don't modify anything. Very few people use 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.019 the person tag right now and pot roll as well. 00:35:10.340 --> 00:35:13.269 So some of it is a visibility issue, but There 00:35:13.269 --> 00:35:15.250 are definitely some things that creators want 00:35:15.250 --> 00:35:17.909 more. And I think live is actually just a great 00:35:17.909 --> 00:35:21.070 example. So many people go live and like live. 00:35:21.409 --> 00:35:24.630 And so what can we prioritize in terms of what 00:35:24.630 --> 00:35:27.409 do most creators want most of the time? I think 00:35:27.409 --> 00:35:31.269 live is a great one. But as you go up, like you 00:35:31.269 --> 00:35:36.929 can see a kind of higher tier creator or a more 00:35:36.929 --> 00:35:40.070 professional creator, things like a publisher 00:35:40.070 --> 00:35:42.769 tag. that echoes what they have on Apple at the 00:35:42.769 --> 00:35:45.409 channel level becomes pretty compelling. But 00:35:45.409 --> 00:35:47.510 I want us to be thinking about weighing both 00:35:47.510 --> 00:35:50.869 of those things. Like, what do 95 % of podcasters 00:35:50.869 --> 00:35:54.210 want? And what could we even realistically get 00:35:54.210 --> 00:35:57.010 them to do? And there's a lot of folks doing 00:35:57.010 --> 00:35:59.710 video, so it makes sense for us to do something 00:35:59.710 --> 00:36:02.409 with video. A lot of folks are doing live. Makes 00:36:02.409 --> 00:36:05.329 sense for us to do something live. And then everything 00:36:05.329 --> 00:36:07.289 else, I think we have to apply the same filter 00:36:07.289 --> 00:36:09.340 to. But yeah, I think this is an exciting time 00:36:09.340 --> 00:36:11.480 for the Podcast Standards Project because now 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:14.940 it's like, OK, it was always Apple's not doing 00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:17.320 anything. Well, now Apple has started doing things. 00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:20.699 And again, in my conversations with Spotify and 00:36:20.699 --> 00:36:23.599 even YouTube, there's opportunities there as 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.260 well. I don't think they're as opposed to things 00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:29.860 as we think. Podcast transcript tag being a great 00:36:29.860 --> 00:36:33.099 example. Like, why not grab it? It's there. Just 00:36:33.099 --> 00:36:36.449 treat it like YouTube treats. Transcript uploads 00:36:36.449 --> 00:36:38.650 like you can upload your own transcript or we'll 00:36:38.650 --> 00:36:41.570 generate one for you So I think there's yeah, 00:36:41.610 --> 00:36:43.849 this latest move by Apple is very encouraging 00:36:43.849 --> 00:36:46.630 again I would love to know how long they've been 00:36:46.630 --> 00:36:48.909 working on this because if this was a fairly 00:36:48.909 --> 00:36:51.650 recent development first That's exciting because 00:36:51.650 --> 00:36:54.250 that means the podcast ecosystem does have a 00:36:54.250 --> 00:36:57.150 voice that Apple's listening to I and The second 00:36:57.150 --> 00:36:58.809 thing is it means Apple can actually move a bit 00:36:58.809 --> 00:37:01.130 faster than we thought so if this was something 00:37:01.130 --> 00:37:03.440 they've been working for like three, four years 00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.719 on, then, well, okay, it was just in the pipeline, 00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:07.280 whatever. But if this is something they're like, 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.239 you know what, like a year ago, they're like, 00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:12.260 we should look into this. And then they started 00:37:12.260 --> 00:37:14.360 working on it and building it, and they were 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:16.699 able to get it initially launched in a year? 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:20.239 That's exciting because that means that they 00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.340 could also move on other things as well. And 00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:26.900 we just might see, and when Apple moves, it just 00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:30.760 really does help for it to go across the open 00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:33.920 ecosystem. And also, like you said, like now, 00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:37.199 like if you can do dynamic ads on Apple podcast 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:39.440 video, but you can't do it on Spotify or YouTube, 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:41.420 how does that move them? It makes things more 00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:45.519 interesting. So, yeah, I'm pleased and and I'm 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:49.199 hoping that maybe we'll see maybe the live tag, 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:51.579 maybe the person tag, maybe the publisher tag. 00:37:51.900 --> 00:37:55.400 It's all in play now. And now all we have to 00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:58.500 do as an open ecosystem is make the best possible 00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:02.699 case. the honest case that creators are actually 00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:05.539 asking for it. This is something creators want. 00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:07.739 This is something that a lot of creators want. 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:09.800 This is something that a lot of listeners want. 00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:12.920 And if we can make that case, I think that's 00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:14.920 what became compelling about video is that we 00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:17.139 could say, well, creators want it and consumers 00:38:17.139 --> 00:38:20.440 want it. And so it becomes a lot more palatable 00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:23.260 if there's evidence of demand. Justin Jackson, 00:38:23.260 --> 00:38:25.360 we probably could talk for ages, but I'm sure 00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:27.760 we have to end this podcast at some point. Thank 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.880 you so much. I think we're going to be talking 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:33.420 about this a lot more in 2026. I look forward 00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:36.340 to seeing you in London. Yes. At the London podcast 00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:38.599 show. I'm sure we'll be chatting about it there 00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:40.099 as well. See you soon. Thank you.