WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.580 Right, let's go a little bit round the world. 00:00:01.620 --> 00:00:06.080 We'll start in Nigeria, because we've learnt 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:09.980 things about Nigerian podcasting. For example, 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:15.000 they are much less likely to podfade. 74 % of 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:18.420 shows remain active in the country. Spotify for 00:00:18.420 --> 00:00:21.100 Creators is the number one podcast host in the 00:00:21.100 --> 00:00:24.050 country as well. And I thought this is really 00:00:24.050 --> 00:00:26.690 interesting because we hear an awful lot of shows, 00:00:26.890 --> 00:00:32.829 an awful lot from the UK and from the US and 00:00:32.829 --> 00:00:36.649 from Australia. We hear very little coming out 00:00:36.649 --> 00:00:39.950 of Africa. So I thought, well, let's find out 00:00:39.950 --> 00:00:43.310 a little bit more. In a first for this very podcast, 00:00:43.630 --> 00:00:47.950 joining us live from Lagos is the person who 00:00:47.950 --> 00:00:53.189 put this work together, is Tony Doe. Greetings, 00:00:53.329 --> 00:00:56.850 Tony. Hey, James. Thanks for having me. Hi. Hello, 00:00:56.990 --> 00:00:59.810 Sam. Hey, how are you, Tony? I'm great, and you? 00:01:00.090 --> 00:01:02.969 There you go. You see, look, the technology works, 00:01:03.130 --> 00:01:07.209 which is a fantastic thing. Nigeria is massive, 00:01:07.290 --> 00:01:09.870 isn't it? 224 million people who live there. 00:01:10.010 --> 00:01:12.730 And counting. Yeah, and counting. 60 million 00:01:12.730 --> 00:01:17.069 people speaking English. 64 million people speaking 00:01:17.069 --> 00:01:19.430 Hausa. And one of the things that I was interested 00:01:19.430 --> 00:01:23.890 in on this data is that the data which comes 00:01:23.890 --> 00:01:27.510 from the Nigerian Podcast Index, over 90 % of 00:01:27.510 --> 00:01:32.390 shows are in English. And Hauser is, I think, 00:01:32.390 --> 00:01:35.310 from memory, something like 2 .7%. Why aren't 00:01:35.310 --> 00:01:38.930 there more shows in Hauser, Tony? There are lots 00:01:38.930 --> 00:01:42.950 of shows, but not enough shows registered as 00:01:42.950 --> 00:01:47.620 podcasts. Ah. Hauser, yes. When it comes to radio, 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:49.959 there's a lot of content. There's a lot of outside 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.060 content on radio, live radio, community radio, 00:01:53.299 --> 00:01:56.099 communal radio. But when it comes to podcasting, 00:01:56.099 --> 00:01:58.219 and I'm still searching, so it's not as if the 00:01:58.219 --> 00:02:01.099 journey is over per se, but it comes down to 00:02:01.099 --> 00:02:06.099 platforms. There's a limit to language options 00:02:06.099 --> 00:02:12.479 in terms of primary speech for content creators. 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:16.969 So we're dealing with major languages, usually 00:02:16.969 --> 00:02:20.229 English, French, maybe Spanish, languages that 00:02:20.229 --> 00:02:25.770 seem to have more global appeal. And only until 00:02:25.770 --> 00:02:29.280 recently... We started having platforms that 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.740 decided to look a little inward and create content 00:02:32.740 --> 00:02:36.080 or rather create a place or a home that would 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:40.240 allow local language podcasts to thrive. Another 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:42.500 thing is, you know, education as well. If they 00:02:42.500 --> 00:02:45.719 know that platforms exist, then they can come 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:48.900 on board and speak their languages with a bit 00:02:48.900 --> 00:02:51.669 more ease. A lot of them don't know that you 00:02:51.669 --> 00:02:55.009 can do that yet. Yeah, and I guess if you were 00:02:55.009 --> 00:02:58.509 to use Spotify for creators, then all of that, 00:02:58.590 --> 00:03:01.110 I'm going to guess, is in English, is it? It 00:03:01.110 --> 00:03:05.129 is. Everything is in English. Even the ones I 00:03:05.129 --> 00:03:08.370 managed to get on the index actually belong to 00:03:08.370 --> 00:03:12.680 a service. A new service, I think RFI or so, 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.139 they're not exactly based in Nigeria, but they 00:03:15.139 --> 00:03:19.020 do cater to local languages and then have podcast 00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:23.419 structures. Tony, hi, it's Sam here. Talking 00:03:23.419 --> 00:03:27.300 of Spotify, the top podcast app in Nigeria is 00:03:27.300 --> 00:03:29.819 Spotify. Yes. But for the benefit of our sponsors, 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:33.460 Buzzsprout, who is the most popular podcast hosting 00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:38.039 company? There are a lot of... podcasters using 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:41.599 buzzsprout i have friends who are using buzzsprout 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:45.400 and not just using the platform but actually 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:48.460 benefiting from all the features of the platform 00:03:48.460 --> 00:03:50.919 which means they're actually monetizing with 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:54.580 it which is not which is not exactly as popular 00:03:54.580 --> 00:03:57.479 with other podcasters but i do know a few people 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:00.819 who who are using buzzsprout but spotify has 00:04:00.819 --> 00:04:04.139 a massive massive gap I think Buzzsprout is next 00:04:04.139 --> 00:04:07.840 or Acast. I'd have to go through again. Excellent. 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:10.979 Yes, yes. Well, I suppose because it's free, 00:04:11.180 --> 00:04:14.539 right, Tony? I mean, just on the very basis that 00:04:14.539 --> 00:04:16.279 it's free, that people are going to go there 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:21.300 first. Yes, that. And let's not forget what it 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:23.800 was before it became Spotify for Creators, which 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:28.279 was Anchor. Besides the fact that it's free, 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:31.660 it's the nature in which it was even created. 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.959 people could, from their phones, record their 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:38.959 content and publish directly. And what Ankur 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:42.079 was doing at the time was also submitting on 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:45.560 behalf of the creators to the podcast directories. 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:47.379 So a lot of people who didn't even know what 00:04:47.379 --> 00:04:51.399 was going on with the RSS feeds ended up in actual 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:56.480 podcast directories. So there's a lot of content. 00:04:57.550 --> 00:05:00.930 coming from that time and then you know maybe 00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:04.790 now people you know are starting with what they 00:05:04.790 --> 00:05:08.269 see as free but a lot of people actually started 00:05:08.269 --> 00:05:11.970 podcasting when anchor was available and because 00:05:11.970 --> 00:05:15.730 of the nature of ANCO itself. And a lot of them 00:05:15.730 --> 00:05:18.230 have remained on that platform since, even with 00:05:18.230 --> 00:05:21.230 all the transitions. Yeah, you make a really 00:05:21.230 --> 00:05:23.189 good point because, I mean, I remember going 00:05:23.189 --> 00:05:27.629 to, I did some training in Ghana and talking 00:05:27.629 --> 00:05:32.670 about what to put on your radio station website. 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:38.660 Suddenly realized, of course, that most people 00:05:38.660 --> 00:05:41.180 are accessing the internet through mobile phones, 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:43.600 not necessarily through a laptop or a desktop. 00:05:44.019 --> 00:05:46.699 And of course, Anchor was brilliant at that because 00:05:46.699 --> 00:05:49.360 Anchor had an app that you could use to record 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.879 stuff straight into Anchor and publish and away 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:56.100 you go. Yes, exactly. And I think that's what's 00:05:56.100 --> 00:05:59.079 missing in the space now. And I think people 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:02.319 actually look forward to something like that 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:05.529 happening again. or a resurgence of that type 00:06:05.529 --> 00:06:09.610 of um that type of availability and it's not 00:06:09.610 --> 00:06:12.949 it's not there anymore yeah there you go sam 00:06:12.949 --> 00:06:14.730 there's another there's another hint and tip 00:06:14.730 --> 00:06:18.170 for how true fans work Yeah, I'll stick that 00:06:18.170 --> 00:06:21.370 on the 2027 roadmap. I don't think we're going 00:06:21.370 --> 00:06:25.850 to get that anytime soon. Sorry. Now, Tony, I 00:06:25.850 --> 00:06:29.610 was looking at the genres of the shows and religion 00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:32.730 and society and culture are the two big genres, 00:06:32.889 --> 00:06:37.689 which are much the same, actually, as in the 00:06:37.689 --> 00:06:41.370 UK or the US or here in Australia. But what's 00:06:41.370 --> 00:06:44.670 the big difference between podcasting in Nigeria? 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:50.500 and in the UK or the US? I'd say ours is culturally 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:55.680 driven, really. Our lifestyles, our attitudes 00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:00.639 towards things, our perspectives on issues as 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:05.000 hope and faith are really what drives what we 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:12.089 do when we create. We're a very communal... society 00:07:12.089 --> 00:07:16.990 we find excuses to gather at places which is 00:07:16.990 --> 00:07:20.490 one of the reasons remote work was kind of difficult 00:07:20.490 --> 00:07:24.050 to introduce to the workspace in Nigeria because 00:07:24.050 --> 00:07:26.269 people like seeing you people want to see you 00:07:26.269 --> 00:07:29.649 even if you're not doing anything people won't 00:07:29.649 --> 00:07:31.470 see you and then we like having conversations 00:07:31.470 --> 00:07:34.970 loud ones too talking over each other and that's 00:07:34.970 --> 00:07:37.389 why a lot of the shows you find in the index 00:07:37.389 --> 00:07:42.050 are Chat shows, more or less, co -hosted shows, 00:07:42.490 --> 00:07:46.790 hosts bringing in guests, panels, four to five 00:07:46.790 --> 00:07:50.790 hosts sometimes. And then the reason religion 00:07:50.790 --> 00:07:55.110 kind of works is because there's already a system 00:07:55.110 --> 00:08:01.079 that supports it in terms of... It's recording 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:05.620 and preservation or archiving. Long before podcasting, 00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:09.600 we used to have cassettes. We used to have Bibles 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:12.360 on tapes. We had preachers who would actually 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:18.220 put a series of monthly sermons or quarterly 00:08:18.220 --> 00:08:21.579 sermons in cassettes and then have these sold. 00:08:21.819 --> 00:08:24.379 And then when CDs became a thing, it continued 00:08:24.379 --> 00:08:31.769 with that tradition as well. space became available 00:08:31.769 --> 00:08:35.029 for this kind of content as well. It also moved 00:08:35.029 --> 00:08:37.470 into that space as well. I wrote an e -book a 00:08:37.470 --> 00:08:44.090 while ago dedicated to pastors and ministers 00:08:44.090 --> 00:08:48.929 teaching them more or less how to turn their 00:08:48.929 --> 00:08:53.429 sermons into podcasts because the content already 00:08:53.429 --> 00:08:56.970 existed and it just helped with proliferating 00:08:56.970 --> 00:09:00.139 the messages. And helping them understand that 00:09:00.139 --> 00:09:04.139 sometimes, even if the message was preached live 00:09:04.139 --> 00:09:08.080 to a local audience, there could be someone somewhere 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.779 far away who could still benefit from that message 00:09:10.779 --> 00:09:13.799 as well. I was with the church for a while. And 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:15.919 for the two years I was handling their podcast 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:19.299 management, there was a difference. There was 00:09:19.299 --> 00:09:21.940 a huge difference. And it also impacted on the 00:09:21.940 --> 00:09:25.259 way. the pastor himself began to preach because 00:09:25.259 --> 00:09:28.519 where he felt, you know, who else would listen 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:31.240 apart from everybody in here? He was able to 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:36.549 expand. on his messages and then also bringing 00:09:36.549 --> 00:09:39.570 views that he thought you know would also help 00:09:39.570 --> 00:09:42.610 expand the views of his congregation as well 00:09:42.610 --> 00:09:45.870 and then he you know he testified of um having 00:09:45.870 --> 00:09:47.690 people reach out to him and tell him that they 00:09:47.690 --> 00:09:50.970 had his message from miles away and why was that 00:09:50.970 --> 00:09:54.340 they found it on spotify Tony, very quick question. 00:09:54.460 --> 00:09:59.000 How do people make money in Nigeria with podcasting? 00:09:59.019 --> 00:10:02.620 That is the million dollar question. It is the 00:10:02.620 --> 00:10:06.080 money question itself. The honest truth is... 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:07.399 They're not making a million dollars, that's 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:10.360 for certain. No, they're not. And then again, 00:10:10.700 --> 00:10:16.879 it's kind of a guarded situation. I can only 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:20.440 speak to... What I know for certain, which is 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.679 the fact that the successful podcasts are tied 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:29.340 to local networks, which means that the creators 00:10:29.340 --> 00:10:33.919 themselves may not even be involved. in the monetization 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.399 process. They probably just get paid fees or 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:39.940 salaries like they're coming to regular jobs. 00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:43.379 And then all the work is being handled by the 00:10:43.379 --> 00:10:45.419 networks themselves. Now, these networks are 00:10:45.419 --> 00:10:47.700 the ones who then put the shows on platforms 00:10:47.700 --> 00:10:51.980 like Buzzsprout, Acast, RSS .com, and so on, 00:10:52.100 --> 00:10:56.379 and then create the relationships with the podcast 00:10:56.379 --> 00:11:00.539 advertising agencies who place ads on these shows 00:11:00.539 --> 00:11:07.460 and make things work. For the tougher independent 00:11:07.460 --> 00:11:11.740 ones, me, for instance, I don't exactly monetize 00:11:11.740 --> 00:11:16.419 my show, but there are skills that I exhibit 00:11:16.419 --> 00:11:20.460 through my show that enable me to monetize, one 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:23.460 of which is voiceover work that I do. I also 00:11:23.460 --> 00:11:29.220 produce podcasts. I also produce... radio commercials 00:11:29.220 --> 00:11:32.200 and jingles. So these are like audio adjacent 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:37.220 things I do. I think Dave Jackson says that you 00:11:37.220 --> 00:11:40.080 don't monetize podcasts, you monetize your audience. 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:42.539 You monetize the people who you reach through 00:11:42.539 --> 00:11:46.379 the podcast, which I think makes a bunch of sense. 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:52.799 Stupid question, Tony. The podcasts that are 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.039 in the Nigerian podcast index, are they mostly 00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:00.240 listened to in Nigeria itself? Or is there a 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.320 diaspora that also listen? Or, you know, how 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.120 does that bit work? It's a bit of both. And the 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.440 interesting thing is the index doesn't just concern 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.529 podcasts created in Nigeria. It actually... It 00:12:13.529 --> 00:12:16.029 contains podcasts created by Nigerians abroad. 00:12:16.269 --> 00:12:19.389 I found some very interesting ones. There's a 00:12:19.389 --> 00:12:24.649 high percentage of diaspora listeners, but the 00:12:24.649 --> 00:12:26.929 bulk of listeners are still Nigerians, interestingly. 00:12:27.470 --> 00:12:32.070 And many of them, I wouldn't know what class 00:12:32.070 --> 00:12:34.129 to put them in now because we really don't have... 00:12:34.690 --> 00:12:37.590 the middle class anymore, but many of them are 00:12:37.590 --> 00:12:42.169 predisposed to digital or many of them are digitally 00:12:42.169 --> 00:12:44.990 savvy. So it's kind of easy. You're talking to 00:12:44.990 --> 00:12:46.830 people in universities, you're talking to young 00:12:46.830 --> 00:12:51.269 professionals and corporate society, banking, 00:12:51.429 --> 00:12:54.370 infrastructure, oil and gas. And, you know, these 00:12:54.370 --> 00:12:56.029 are people who are growing up more or less with 00:12:56.029 --> 00:12:58.210 the technology. So they're pretty much exposed 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:02.490 to it. Many of them eventually travel and, you 00:13:02.490 --> 00:13:05.909 know, The listening is really heavy locally, 00:13:06.269 --> 00:13:10.850 but there's a growing audience of listeners abroad, 00:13:11.009 --> 00:13:15.549 but probably still Nigerian listeners abroad, 00:13:15.750 --> 00:13:18.590 those who miss home and still want a taste of 00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:21.730 home without the limits of radio. Well, if you've 00:13:21.730 --> 00:13:25.340 got 224 million people who live there. you would 00:13:25.340 --> 00:13:26.539 imagine that there are going to be quite a lot 00:13:26.539 --> 00:13:30.440 of people that are currently overseas as well. 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:32.820 So there is always that. What's the best way 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:35.820 to get in touch with you? You can obviously find 00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:38.259 out more about the Nigerian Podcast Index by 00:13:38.259 --> 00:13:41.659 searching the PodNews newsletter. But where else 00:13:41.659 --> 00:13:44.500 should people be having a look? The website is 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:48.460 up, NigerianPodcastIndex .com. My email is Tony. 00:13:48.940 --> 00:13:51.980 at NigerianPodcastIndex .com. You can find me, 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.779 Tony Doe, I'm everywhere. LinkedIn, Instagram, 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:59.860 Xthreads. And if you search Nigerian Podcast 00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.860 Index slash Tony Doe or whatever, you'll probably 00:14:02.860 --> 00:14:05.940 find me lurking somewhere. Tony, thank you so 00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:08.580 much. And congratulations by putting together 00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:11.169 the index. Thank you, Sam. Thank you so much. 00:14:11.190 --> 00:14:13.470 It's been great having our first live guest. 00:14:13.769 --> 00:14:15.330 Thank you. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, James. 00:14:15.809 --> 00:14:19.350 Thank you, Tony. That's super interesting. And 00:14:19.350 --> 00:14:21.789 I do think that there's a bunch of really interesting 00:14:21.789 --> 00:14:25.889 things going on in parts of the rest of the world 00:14:25.889 --> 00:14:29.169 that we don't know too much about. So, yeah, 00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:30.649 always, always fascinating.