I am, what am I called, head of digital audio
at RNZ. So I run the podcast team here at New
Zealand's National Broadcaster and a bunch of
the weekly radio shows and our overall digital
strategy. RNZ, is that kind of the same as the
BBC or CBC, that sort of thing? Exactly right.
We talk a lot to the BBC, ABC, CBC. We're state
funded, but obviously independent at arm's length
with that funding. But yes, we're a traditional
public broadcaster. And you do a bunch of different
podcasts, don't you? And I think you've been
podcast first for quite some time. Yeah, we have.
We've since about 2017. have about 140 shows
on the slate probably. Half of those roughly
would be repurposed radio shows, but the rest
are all podcast originals or various versions
thereof, some video, some not. But yes, all digital
first, all very much focused on our digital audience
and trying to make sure they are the glorious
thing that is digital audio as opposed to just
hacked up radio. Yes, which is a big difference.
We'll get on to NARC in a minute, but what are
some of your biggest shows that we would have
heard of? Look, people might have listened to
Gone Fishing and The Service, which are kind
of true crime or spy shows that we have done
in the past. Black Sheep is a history show that
we do that has got some global renown. Yeah,
that's the kind of thing we spend a lot of time
on. Did Titanic Sink has been playing quite a
bit in Australia. um our changing world is our
science show that plays weekly on both the cbc
and the abc as well as rnz so yeah we we like
to think we punch them up our weight now you've
just launched a new show called narc and uh it's
all to do with the um the murder of a prison
inmate in 1985 um i i'm interested in this show
i mean firstly why don't you tell us what narc
is about it's a it's a 17 episode series so we
could stay here for weeks discussing it. It really
is one of those true crime shows where you just
think you couldn't want for anything more. It
is a murder in a prison, the first in Mount Eden,
New Zealand's biggest prison in 1985. Obviously
the people who were witnesses or around at the
time were all convicted criminals so who do you
believe? The man who was ultimately convicted,
not once but twice for the crime, and had his
conviction quashed by the Governor -General twice
for the same crime, was a guy called Rosser Pelgrin,
who was a low -time burglar who was in prison
at the time. The police had started talking deals
and money even before he made a statement. Ultimately,
it was evidence from a narc that got Rosser Pelgrin
convicted of murder. Perhaps the most dangerous
type of witness is the incentivised prison witness.
So NARC's not only a story about the 1985 murder
of Darcy Tehera, it's also the story of Rosa
Pelgrin, the man twice convicted of the crime.
He went to his grave in 2013, insisting he was
innocent, and he did not murder Darcy Tehera
on January the 6th, 1985, on a Sunday morning
as they were getting breakfast. The key part
in that sentence was that Rosa Pelgrin has been
dead for... the best part of 13 years. But his
widow is going back to court, and this is part
of this news that we just broke with the release
of the podcast. His widow is going back to court
to try and clear his name 13 years after his
death, using a precedent that was set by the
Peter Ellis case here in New Zealand, which people
might have heard the conviction podcast that
we did about the Peter Ellis case, in which an
offender was able to clear his name after he
had died. This is... unprecedented territory
we're getting into legally, but it's a fascinating
case of a palgrin. He escaped prison at one point
and went on talkback radio to insist on his innocence.
He has had a remarkable story, as has the NARC,
who is the man who testified to seeing a palgrin
commit the murder. He has also had a remarkable
life since he made that witness statement. And
the question is whether we believe him or not.
And you say that a pilgrim has been dead for
some time, but he's on this new show, isn't he?
And he's actually explaining some of the things
that went on. You've clearly used AI for this.
How have you used AI for this? Yes. Well, the
first thing to say, I mean, to be very precise
and transparent about these terms, we're careful
to say he is not on it. This is AI, but it is
not him. We want to be really clear that we're
not trying to be cute about this. We're not trying
to be in any way deceptive. And so we've spent
a bit of time in episode two and then repeated
some of it in later episodes explaining exactly
what and why we did it. What we had in the investigation
was screeds of written evidence. He had written
his memoirs before he died. He had, over the
years, there were transcripts from court cases.
There were affidavit. signed sworn and signed
there were print articles written about him so
we had his voice in written form in great volumes
but we had very little audio of him um some we
were you could have claimed through fair dealing
some we could get the rights to but just generally
there was just not a lot and there was not a
lot of him saying the things that he had written
down so how did we meet the medium in that regard
well usually we'd use an actor and That would
have been common practice and was when we started
working on the podcast two and a half years ago.
But as we walked through, and this has been a
very long investigation, as we worked through
the investigation, it became clear that AI was
giving us options that we didn't have before.
And Mike Wesley -Smith, who's the host and lead
producer on this podcast who we're working with,
came to us and said, what about using AI? We've,
you know, the voice. of many was, well, would
his family, would his widow be okay with that?
What would he think? We had those conversations.
His widow, Julie, was very keen, loved the idea.
We got permission from her and his estate to
do that. We went through our AI working group
here at RNZ to have the ethical discussions and
ultimately we got to the place where we thought
it was the right. thing to do and would really
enhance the podcast. And so we used some of the
few radio interviews that he gave and taught
an AI voice cloning tool his voice. I had a fair
idea of who was in on it, but I wasn't 100 %
sure. There was about three or four who I thought
were going to be in on it, with one or two giving
him a bash, while one or two kept an eye out.
When Tahira came into the kitchen, I was thinking,
I don't want to be near this, just in case. you
never know what's going to happen. This is the
first time that AI has been used by RNZ. It is.
It is. And as far as we know, the first time
that we've heard in a podcast or radio show of
AI being used by a dead criminal to try and clear
their name. So it's a very specific use, and
that was part of our consideration as well. RNZ
will treat this on a case -by -case basis. But
we thought... You know, if part of journalism
is giving voice to the voiceless, then it's often
to people who are the most vulnerable. And if
you've been accused of murder, there is no greater
stain on your reputation. And if you're insisting
that you're innocent, and look, we don't come
to conclusions. This is an investigation which
raises a lot of questions about the safety of
the conviction, but it certainly doesn't take
sides as to whether we believe the narc or whether
we believe a pilgrim. It is a balanced and fair
approach to the story. We figured that a pilgrim
had a right to a voice in there and to make his
case, declare his name. And I guess the bottom
line, James, is how much more powerful to hear
a simile of his voice pleading his own case.
You know, it just takes the connection with the
audience to another level. You said something
right at the beginning of this. Normally, we
would have used an actor. And I think, you know,
it's very easy to turn around and say, oh, you
know, AI, this is a dreadful idea. Well, actually,
this is a better idea, it seems to me, to have
the real person's voice reading his own words
rather than having an actor coming in and reading
those words for him. I mean, how much more powerful,
right? The sense that, again, you know, it is
a machine ultimately. It was so moving for his
family and how much more powerful as a listener
to actually hear the guy's tones and, as he says,
his words. I was a career criminal. People thought
it was strange, but it wasn't. We still, in terms
of actors, and from an audience point of view,
we think it's a really good call. Obviously,
there are issues around the use of actors, for
example. We still use... crikey a couple of dozen
actors i think there is as i say over 17 episodes
there are many parts um and things to be read
out so we still use actors i'm out and we still
used an actor in conjunction with the um ai voice
we fed the words we wanted from the memoir and
the articles and so forth into the the ai tool
and it very um two really interesting things
one we ended up using only one minute of really
high quality audio to teach the voice. There's
a lot of advice out there when we started looking
into it saying you'll need 30 minutes of a voice
for AI to learn it. We did it with one minute
of audio. We tried it with several minutes of
lower quality audio and it didn't sound as good
or as realistic. So we found that less audio
of a higher quality is more useful to AI than
more audio of a lower quality. But then when
we initially fed it in, it was very, the accent
was hard for AI to get and it ended up sounding
either very American or very English to start
with. So we used a New Zealand actor who had
listened to Russell Prelgrin's interviews to
try and mimic his intonation and his pace and
also to get the Kiwi accent. And so it was a
combination of that AI voice. but also the actors'
abilities. Ross, yeah. Yeah, so you're doing,
I think Eleven Labs calls it parrot mode. Which
tool did you use, were you able to say? I guess
not, and given you just mentioned them, we used
Eleven Labs. All right, okay. Well, that's nice
and easy. I'm guessing this isn't in video. This
is just purely an audio show? Purely audio. Yep,
purely audio. It's 17 episodes. And the episode
is, I don't know, 35 to 65 minutes each. So there
is a lot of audio. And this is the point, right,
that it would have been, there's a lot of Ross
Appelgren in there, a lot of him trying to tell
his own story. And an actor is great, but...
over that kind of duration. And when you're trying
to, you know, a man's trying to plead for, not
for his life, we don't have the descendants in
New Zealand, but plead his innocence. It's just
that much more of a connection, I think, for
the audience to hear him speak himself. Really
interesting to hear about AI being used in this
way. NARC is available wherever you get your
podcasts, I'm assuming? It sure is. And it's
rolling out between now and the first week of
December, three episodes a week. And I tell you,
it's the best true crime story I've heard for
a very long time. Tim, thank you so much. Thank
you.