WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.700 I am Brian Conlon. I am president of DAX US. 00:00:03.180 --> 00:00:05.599 I run the day -to -day operations here for our 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:09.539 US business. I was employee number one of Audio 00:00:09.539 --> 00:00:12.699 HQ 11 years ago when our founders Matt Katera 00:00:12.699 --> 00:00:15.500 and Jeff McCarthy started the business. Now I'm 00:00:15.500 --> 00:00:18.559 overseeing the next phase of DAX and kind of 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:21.239 taking us into the future of programmatic audio 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:23.719 and especially podcasting as an area of focus 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:26.539 for us as we go forward. So you're part of Global, 00:00:26.660 --> 00:00:28.879 which owns radio stations and podcast companies 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:32.960 and out -of -home advertising and DAX. What's 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:35.939 the elevator pitch for what DAX is and what DAX 00:00:35.939 --> 00:00:40.979 does? DAX is an audio SSP that connects why with 00:00:40.979 --> 00:00:44.859 brands and makes curation of inventory easy for 00:00:44.859 --> 00:00:47.820 advertisers to activate campaigns and measure 00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:50.509 outcomes, I think would be elevator pitch. The 00:00:50.509 --> 00:00:53.409 challenge we have is DAX US is slightly different 00:00:53.409 --> 00:00:55.969 than DAX UK because they operate with all of 00:00:55.969 --> 00:00:57.810 the owned and operated radio stations that Global 00:00:57.810 --> 00:01:01.350 owns. Here we are a reseller of inventory. So 00:01:01.350 --> 00:01:04.609 right now we partner with 20 different Cure Clay 00:01:04.609 --> 00:01:07.269 partners and about 400 radio stations in the 00:01:07.269 --> 00:01:10.859 US market. that are 100 % exclusive to DAX. So 00:01:10.859 --> 00:01:13.799 the DAX US elevator pitch is, we have access 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:16.359 to over 40 million monthly uniques that are exclusive 00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:19.420 to the DAX US team. And that makes up about a 00:01:19.420 --> 00:01:21.859 fifth of the streaming audio marketplace. So 00:01:21.859 --> 00:01:24.280 by not buying DAX, you're missing out on a fifth 00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:27.000 of the potential consumers for your brand. Yeah, 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.420 my notes tell me that DAX reaches more listeners 00:01:29.420 --> 00:01:32.700 than Spotify or Pandora or iHeart. So where are 00:01:32.700 --> 00:01:36.400 those listeners? Those are subscribers that pay 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:39.180 for the... free version without the ads. And 00:01:39.180 --> 00:01:41.620 I think what we try and lean into is that Dax 00:01:41.620 --> 00:01:44.239 is an advertiser first organization, not a subscriber 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:47.340 first organization. Andorra and Spotify are great 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:50.060 platforms, right? There's no combating that statement. 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:52.920 They are where brands want to be. But I think 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.859 in reality, the actual ad supported audience 00:01:55.859 --> 00:01:58.159 is much smaller than brands may perceive the 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:00.799 platform to be in the overall landscape. One 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.250 thing that we really leaned into is If you look 00:02:03.250 --> 00:02:05.730 at Spotify, Pandora, and iHeart, they only account 00:02:05.730 --> 00:02:08.430 for about 55 % of the digital audio ad spend 00:02:08.430 --> 00:02:11.389 currently. So there is a large portion of consumers 00:02:11.389 --> 00:02:14.289 you are not reaching by only buying those three. 00:02:14.409 --> 00:02:16.310 So those three absolutely have a seat at the 00:02:16.310 --> 00:02:18.840 table. But what DAX looks to do is become that 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.620 reach and efficiency advertiser or audience at 00:02:21.620 --> 00:02:23.680 that scale, essentially, is really what we try 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:26.300 and do here and be that reach extension and efficiency 00:02:26.300 --> 00:02:28.360 play to bring in the overall buy and help them 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.639 fill that untapped gap of audience. DAX is clearly 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:35.300 a very big company in terms of the amount of 00:02:35.300 --> 00:02:37.159 audience that you are reaching and everything 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:41.360 else. I'm wondering why... I've not written an 00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:43.580 awful lot about DAX, and I'm wondering why we 00:02:43.580 --> 00:02:45.560 haven't heard more. You know, it's almost like 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:49.240 a sleeping giant, isn't it? Why is that? I think 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:51.259 that's why we're talking today, to be honest. 00:02:51.379 --> 00:02:54.039 Is it my fault, Brian? No. Is it my fault? I 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:56.139 don't think it's your fault. I think when we 00:02:56.139 --> 00:02:58.520 first started the company at Audio HQ, we tried 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:00.500 to do a lot of press releases, talking about 00:03:00.500 --> 00:03:03.699 our exclusive partnerships. Post -COVID, we just 00:03:03.699 --> 00:03:06.180 kind of let the business run steady course, right? 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.199 I don't think we did a lot of news flashes post 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:11.449 -acquisition. But now in my role, I think this 00:03:11.449 --> 00:03:14.069 is a big opportunity for us to lean in now and 00:03:14.069 --> 00:03:15.830 start to get some recognition in the marketplace 00:03:15.830 --> 00:03:18.530 because we do have a tremendous value prop for 00:03:18.530 --> 00:03:20.930 advertisers. We've built a lot of loyal customers 00:03:20.930 --> 00:03:23.430 over 11 years in business. You're not going to 00:03:23.430 --> 00:03:25.150 succeed for 11 years if you're doing something 00:03:25.150 --> 00:03:27.330 wrong, right? I mean, we built these relationships. 00:03:27.430 --> 00:03:30.650 We provide ROI for advertisers. We've got a lot 00:03:30.650 --> 00:03:33.509 of these Fortune 500 brands that have come to 00:03:33.509 --> 00:03:35.389 us. We've gotten verbal approval. And then we 00:03:35.389 --> 00:03:37.960 go to the client phase and they're like... Who 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:41.139 is Dax, right? To your point, we're a giant that's 00:03:41.139 --> 00:03:45.120 a little bit invisible. So I think what I'm trying 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:46.960 to do is just get our message out there and let 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:49.439 people know that we are here to help with monetization 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:52.379 and then help brands find unique audience that's 00:03:52.379 --> 00:03:54.319 added to their media plan. When we were setting 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:56.599 up this interview, I was told that you would 00:03:56.599 --> 00:04:00.919 tell us why audio is broken today. And that sounds 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:04.020 interesting. So Brian, why is audio broken today? 00:04:04.509 --> 00:04:07.030 We don't get a proper seat at the table, right? 00:04:07.110 --> 00:04:10.810 I think there is a lack of measurement to get 00:04:10.810 --> 00:04:13.189 audio. It's proper recognition on a media plan. 00:04:13.590 --> 00:04:15.629 That's why I think it's broken. Something that 00:04:15.629 --> 00:04:18.009 I've spoken about, I think it last time was with 00:04:18.009 --> 00:04:20.829 Brian Barletta, the podcast movement was around. 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:23.420 If you look at these media plans, it's very easy 00:04:23.420 --> 00:04:25.360 for audio to be the first one that gets thrown 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:27.160 off the planet because it's just not performing 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:30.160 in these MMM models within the industry holding 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.879 companies. But for me, we know it provides tremendous 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.160 value for brands. We know it provides reach. 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:39.199 It's providing an ROI. It's just not being measured 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:42.959 the same way CTV and display and search are holistically 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:45.720 on these media plans. So there's no way for these. 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:48.819 these agencies to kind of talk about the value 00:04:48.819 --> 00:04:51.720 prop and get brands to commit to it. So I think 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:54.100 we've solved for measurement attribution, but 00:04:54.100 --> 00:04:56.220 it's still within our ecosystem with companies 00:04:56.220 --> 00:04:59.240 like Claritas and PodScribe providing great benefits 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:01.600 to advertisers, but that's still in a siloed 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.000 fashion, right? We're not talking about it holistically 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:06.660 across the budgets and how do we take budget 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:09.339 from social and convert it to audio dollars? 00:05:09.459 --> 00:05:11.040 Like there's no way to really do that easily 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:13.180 now. And that's why I feel like our industry 00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:17.060 is broken. One of the things that drives me personally, 00:05:17.339 --> 00:05:20.379 frustrates me personally, is the statement that 00:05:20.379 --> 00:05:22.839 we've heard for five or six years now where audio 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:26.120 is 30 % of a consumer's day, but it's still 5 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:29.060 % to 6 % of the budgets. We've talked about that 00:05:29.060 --> 00:05:31.180 for many years in a row, and we're still not 00:05:31.180 --> 00:05:34.699 figuring out how to properly change that. So 00:05:34.699 --> 00:05:36.480 I think that's something that we need to holistically 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:39.980 come together. competitors, frenemies in the 00:05:39.980 --> 00:05:42.459 space and put our heads together about how do 00:05:42.459 --> 00:05:45.519 we actually drive impact and change to allow 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.519 audio to get proper recognition, drive more dollars 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:49.259 for everyone in the space. Yeah, there was a 00:05:49.259 --> 00:05:51.740 report recently from Oxford Road saying that 00:05:51.740 --> 00:05:54.660 podcasting is missing a billion dollars in ad 00:05:54.660 --> 00:05:57.379 revenue because it doesn't have good enough measurement. 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.959 Do you agree with Dan there? Yeah, I do. I think 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:05.060 they definitely are onto something there and 00:06:05.060 --> 00:06:07.269 I think... One of the things we have to worry 00:06:07.269 --> 00:06:11.829 about as an industry is YouTube is this big, 00:06:11.850 --> 00:06:14.529 great partner for a lot of people from a podcast 00:06:14.529 --> 00:06:17.230 reach standpoint. But what does that do for the 00:06:17.230 --> 00:06:19.769 audio strategy long term, right? We're leaning 00:06:19.769 --> 00:06:22.269 into video so much. You're seeing Spotify and 00:06:22.269 --> 00:06:24.910 iHeart do these Netflix integrations. And there's 00:06:24.910 --> 00:06:26.769 a place for that from a reach extension standpoint. 00:06:26.850 --> 00:06:29.069 But if they're not providing the backend measurement 00:06:29.069 --> 00:06:31.850 to holistically tell the story of the episode, 00:06:32.149 --> 00:06:35.519 is it really helping your audio budget? grow 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:37.819 right and the perception of audio it's really 00:06:37.819 --> 00:06:40.759 it's helping the video component of it grow not 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.480 the audio side and i think podcast is such a 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.319 interesting medium because you're getting that 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:48.540 one -to -one connection in your headphones with 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:51.660 the host that you trust every single day and 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:53.879 i think the video component is because that's 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:55.740 how consumption is shifting in the landscape 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:59.139 but Again, audio is the core of what a podcast 00:06:59.139 --> 00:07:01.819 really is. I was in Norway about 10 years ago, 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:05.040 and I remember going to one of the radio stations, 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:08.019 and they were explaining how their research works. 00:07:08.259 --> 00:07:12.720 And they used exactly the same system, the same 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:17.250 sort of automatic pager thing as TV. did. So 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:19.810 the TV numbers and the radio numbers were identical 00:07:19.810 --> 00:07:25.430 and that enabled advertisers to see total impressions 00:07:25.430 --> 00:07:27.970 and all of that stuff right across broadcast 00:07:27.970 --> 00:07:30.129 media, which I thought was an interesting model. 00:07:31.050 --> 00:07:33.970 Are we talking about measurement in terms of 00:07:33.970 --> 00:07:37.350 just measurement of actual audience or are we 00:07:37.350 --> 00:07:40.069 talking about the ROI part of that as well? The 00:07:40.069 --> 00:07:42.870 ROI part of it for sure. I mean, again, I think 00:07:42.870 --> 00:07:46.139 years ago I was talking to some bigger brands 00:07:46.139 --> 00:07:49.439 that said we weren't providing ROAS on the audio 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.300 channel based on DCM reporting. But that measurement 00:07:52.300 --> 00:07:54.959 is holistically tied to display banners, right? 00:07:55.060 --> 00:07:57.519 It's not tracking it off of audio. And I know 00:07:57.519 --> 00:07:59.399 there's been enhancements to that over the years, 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:02.480 but still, I think just it's holistically looking 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:04.959 at their media plan and DCM and looking at ROAS 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:07.720 as the, here's the ROI, but they don't truly 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.579 understand the challenges or limitations with 00:08:10.579 --> 00:08:12.300 those metrics for audio. I think that's maybe 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:14.220 something that we can be doing better as an industry 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:16.920 is. socializing what those challenges and limitations 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:21.000 are so that way people are more educated. Again, 00:08:21.259 --> 00:08:23.300 I don't know if we're going to change agencies 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:25.620 or advertisers' minds given the scale of the 00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:28.560 budgets on the other channels, but at least if 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.399 they do understand the limitations going into 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:32.679 it, it can help us a little bit just get a different 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:35.100 look at the true ROI for audio as a channel. 00:08:35.629 --> 00:08:37.230 Yeah, I mean, it certainly sounds as if working 00:08:37.230 --> 00:08:39.330 together is a good plan and working together 00:08:39.330 --> 00:08:42.970 with competitors right now is a good plan because 00:08:42.970 --> 00:08:44.850 actually, you know, a rising tide gathers all 00:08:44.850 --> 00:08:48.409 boats, as somebody said a long, long time ago. 00:08:48.769 --> 00:08:51.529 It's true, though. Yeah, but that's absolutely 00:08:51.529 --> 00:08:53.590 right. And I think probably calling things the 00:08:53.590 --> 00:08:56.830 same name is also useful. One of the things that 00:08:56.830 --> 00:09:01.399 has... You know, after eight years of writing 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:04.299 about this industry, it is fascinating seeing 00:09:04.299 --> 00:09:07.100 how different people who sell different bits 00:09:07.100 --> 00:09:10.139 of podcast advertising call what they sell different 00:09:10.139 --> 00:09:13.620 names. It's very frustrating to work out what 00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:17.639 is a sponsorship? What is an ad read? Yeah. So 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:20.340 all of that is a little bit weird. Are there 00:09:20.340 --> 00:09:23.700 other mechanisms in place to help you work together 00:09:23.700 --> 00:09:26.980 with others? I think the IAB is doing a good 00:09:26.980 --> 00:09:30.039 job of trying to facilitate this. Again, I think 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:32.259 it's just doing it more frequently and making 00:09:32.259 --> 00:09:34.340 sure you have the right people in the room to 00:09:34.340 --> 00:09:37.500 help facilitate that change. But I know that 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:40.019 this has been a topic of conversation at some 00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:42.879 of the last few audio days. So I personally am 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:44.600 going to try and get more involved in some of 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:47.500 those events to share my thoughts on it. But 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:50.840 I think that's probably the best way to do it 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.080 right now. And I think trying to lean into... 00:09:54.669 --> 00:09:57.210 what Brian's doing now with podcast movement 00:09:57.210 --> 00:09:58.929 and these new event schedules of just getting 00:09:58.929 --> 00:10:01.029 people in the room for a dinner around these 00:10:01.029 --> 00:10:02.730 events when you have the right decision makers 00:10:02.730 --> 00:10:05.190 there and keep this conversation moving in the 00:10:05.190 --> 00:10:07.830 right direction because it's not going to, one 00:10:07.830 --> 00:10:10.470 day a year is not going to move this thing forward. 00:10:10.509 --> 00:10:13.389 It has to be consistent and a combined effort. 00:10:13.590 --> 00:10:16.509 So what's the one thing that you wish the industry 00:10:16.509 --> 00:10:19.389 could do now that would help grow the industry 00:10:19.389 --> 00:10:22.360 further? collectively figuring out the measurement 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.120 piece is what will grow us to a whole different 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:28.879 level. I mean, again, the YouTube is the thing 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:31.159 we talked about earlier today around a lack of 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:32.940 measurement and attribution on YouTube. And Dan 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:34.940 said it's a billion dollars sitting out there 00:10:34.940 --> 00:10:37.720 that we really can't measure. But you know that 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:39.799 that audience is converting. So it's just really 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:42.159 just happening behind the scenes without any 00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:44.279 recognition for the work that these creators 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.539 are doing. So I think that's really the holistic. 00:10:48.139 --> 00:10:50.100 uh, solution I think would help grow everyone 00:10:50.100 --> 00:10:53.500 right now. And, uh, more events like podcast 00:10:53.500 --> 00:10:56.419 movement and others, um, to, to actually help 00:10:56.419 --> 00:10:59.759 get, uh, industry leaders like you together would 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:01.679 certainly help as well, I guess. Yeah. And I 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:04.600 think it's also about how do we get more brands 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:06.559 into the room? And this is something we've talked 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:09.139 to Brian about, right? It's like, it's definitely 00:11:09.139 --> 00:11:12.500 a lot of the same supply partners, podcast creators 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:14.879 that are showing up to these events and it's 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.279 great to do it two, two times a year, but, How 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:20.379 do we get the decision makers with the dollars 00:11:20.379 --> 00:11:22.580 that are controlling audio budgets to be in that 00:11:22.580 --> 00:11:25.100 room, whether it's comp tickets or having sponsors 00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:28.779 bring certain brands into the room? But we need 00:11:28.779 --> 00:11:31.399 to hear from them what the pain points are, not 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:33.360 just what we think the pain points are, right? 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:34.899 Because I think they're on the front lines every 00:11:34.899 --> 00:11:37.350 day. talking to clients, putting together these 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:40.029 media plans so they know where the challenges 00:11:40.029 --> 00:11:42.730 are and what the opportunities are to scale budgets. 00:11:42.830 --> 00:11:45.690 So having them in the room and up on stage to 00:11:45.690 --> 00:11:48.409 present those findings and learnings is really 00:11:48.409 --> 00:11:50.409 impactful, in my opinion. Brian, it's been great 00:11:50.409 --> 00:11:52.190 to talk. Thank you so much for your time. Yeah, 00:11:52.250 --> 00:11:53.649 nice to speak with you as well, James.