we've launched this literally this week so we
went live with it on wednesday the idea of it
sort of the initial meetings and stuff were happening
sort of january time but i i had a big realization
about this time last year that i've been in the
podcasting space for a long while but mainly
in the paid for sort of production realm looks
like this is the thin end of the wedge when i
was looking at what the likes of Peter Crouch
doing and what Gary's doing with Goldhanger and
what the fellow studios are doing. There's a
big opportunity here, but the bigger opportunity
comes with obviously bigger risks and therefore
bigger rewards. I was just at a point, I was
like, I can't just keep doing the pay -for -production
thing as it stands. I wrote a blog about... five
years ago, which I think James actually published
in Pod News. And I was like, why doesn't Peter
Crouch leave the BBC and run his own thing? Because
if he owned the IP of it, he'd earn loads more
money. Ironically, I've subsequently found out
that Peter Crouch actually read that blog. I'm
not saying that's why he left the BBC and started
his own thing. Take it, James. Claim it is your
idea. Don't be shy. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so
that was the rationale around it, essentially.
There's a massive opportunity in podcasting right
now. And I think we're very uniquely placed in
terms of the celebrity talent we can reach, plus
the experience that we've got, that we can actually
help people to really maximise the value opportunity
that there is right now for people to own their
IP and build platforms rather than just having
a podcast as a paid for, you know, 500 quid,
1 ,000 quid session talent sort of thing. So
why pivot? Because, I mean, obviously, Kara Swisher
might be coming after you. Yeah, so Pivot Productions
Group, I very carefully checked. There is nothing
that is copywritten. It was also for me. So I
got into this business with who's obviously very
well known for football. He's very well known
as playing for England, playing for Tottenham,
Newcastle. He's also a very well known broadcaster.
He's very well known that he left that broadcaster
very swiftly last year when he was unceremoniously
sacked. So we sat there one day. I was like,
well, this is a pivot for me because I've been
in the production space, but it's a different
direction. He went, well, it's definitely a pivot
for me. As we all know why. So I was like, do
you know, I actually like Pivot. And also he
played. in central midfield which is the pivot
role i was like this just works so it's got a
couple of double entendres for us okay cool now
so jermaine genus yourself um you you say you've
got access to numerous people so what is the
goal i mean you know is it just to create a platform
for celebrities and then monetize it or you know
you said it's wider than podcasting i think one
of the things we are seeing now and it'll be
lovely uh hear your take on it which is you know
audio only podcasting so i assume you're going
to be video i assume you're going to be multi
-platform so so where are you going to start
what's the first show and what's the format yeah
so we're calling it visualized because that's
what the cool kids in shoreditch are calling
it apparently yes Yeah, OK, fine. Oh, maybe I'll
retract that then and we'll just go video. So,
yeah, so it's already up and running literally
again as of this week. So the first show we've
launched, Jermaine is one of the co -hosts of
it. The other co -host is famous international
heavyweight boxing legend Derek Chisora, who
is, again, a very interesting character, hence
the name why it fitted under the Pivot brand.
And we've launched a show called Let Me Tell
You Something. And it's really an opportunity
for Derek and Jermaine are actually really good
friends, but people don't know about it. So they're
basically getting on. their celebrity pals to
have conversations that you wouldn't otherwise
hear in a podcast format because obviously they
know stuff about each other that other people
wouldn't ordinarily so we've already recorded
the first sort of 10 episodes we've got katherine
ryan eddie hearn lethal bizzle joe cole michael
venn and page were some really really cool people
but to that extent like michael venn and page
came on and normally i've only ever heard him
talk about The UFC Cajun fighting, he talked
about his conversion to Islam, which is a really
interesting conversation that you wouldn't necessarily
think you're going to get on a podcast with MVP.
Definitely not one that's co -hosted by Jermaine
and Derek as well. But that's what we want to
do, create content opportunities that surprise
people. And to your question about what's the
bigger picture here, as I say, I spotted the
opportunity in 2021 with celebrity talent. I
was like, why don't people just own the IP? But
it has to be bigger. than just the show it's
a monetized the audio listens via programmatic
inserted ad sponsorship etc but where i think
the opportunity is the biggest at the moment
is building that community And I know community
has been the buzzword for marketing since 2023.
I think it was like word of the year, wasn't
it, in the marketing space. But people who get
it genuinely right and can have opportunities
for their listeners and their viewers and their
watchers to come and see them in a live show,
but also do watch alongs and have an opportunity
to come down to recording sessions and where
we're uniquely placed, because obviously we've
already got some sort of celebrity quote unquote
clout in terms of the people behind the business.
But also I've run lots and lots and lots of podcasts.
So we know you're going to get a really good
show. So I think it's going to give us the opportunity
to show talent in a different way and give them
the opportunity to be seen in different ways
as well. Because that's another big thing I've
done in my career is help people to really communicate
the brand message that they want to communicate.
And when you understand what you're trying to
put out there as the perception, you build content
around that. So it's definitely not for us the
case of. Like some sort of big networks of anyone
who's famous and it was got a bit of a TikTok
following. Let's get them on and do a podcast
because we can monetize it for five minutes.
I don't think everyone should have a podcast
as a man who's launched 187 for clients around
the world in the last seven years. Should everyone
have a podcast? No, absolutely not. You know,
some people are only interested in 15 second
short form TikTok videos, and that's absolutely
fine as a medium. And that's not to disregard
it. But that doesn't mean that short form, short
attention audience wants or needs to come across
for longer term. You know, somebody's dancing
to TikTok trends. Does anyone care about their
thoughts on, you know, deep -seated psychology
and manifestation for 45 minutes? Probably not.
Just got visions of Derek Chisore doing TikTok
dances now. I'm sorry. That's going to happen.
I'm not going to be the person to force him to
do it. Someone braver and bigger than me is going
to have to. I was going to say, I wouldn't ask
him either. So, okay, so we get that. One of
the interesting trends that James and I are talking
about, obviously, is more and more content going
behind paywalls. People are beginning to value
quality content, finally. You know, podcasting,
I've always called the second -class digital
citizen because the expectation is free with
ads wrapped around it, right, as the way of monetizing
it. And advertising isn't generating for most
people the type of return they need in order
to grow. So we are seeing a lot of money being
put into Patreon, Memberful, we're seeing Substack,
we're seeing a lot of, you talked about watch
-alongs again, people paying, super chats. So
it's very interesting. Zateo is Mehdi Hassan,
who I really love, went onto Substack. We had
a couple of people talk about not putting their
content onto YouTube because they want to own
the IP. They don't want to lose control of it.
So as the IP creator, what platform are you going
to put your content through as the filter? Is
it going to be on Substack? Are you going to
put it to Patreon? Are you going to leave it
to the open podcasting world? Are you going to
go to YouTube? Where are you? I think moving
forward, and it depends on a show -to -show basis,
I think one thing that we still not cracked in
the podcasting space, and I've been obsessed
with podcasts since 2010, and I've never seen
the discoverability challenge. I know you guys
talk about it regularly on the show, but the
person who cracks that discoverability challenge
is going to do very well for themselves. But
we're not there yet. So fundamentally, I'm of
the belief that you need to go and build an audience.
You need to go and be where people are. If people
like Apple Podcasts, even though they haven't
done anything very innovative, in the last 20
years, apart from making Battersea Powers Apple
for a night, then so be it. And I'm one of those
people, by the way. I know that Spotify's got
a bunch of new shiny bells and whistles and they
serve me up clips and blah, blah, blah. I just
don't like it as a user experience. I prefer
Apple. So we need to be on Apple. We need to
be on Spotify. We need to be on YouTube. However,
there will be extensions and brand extensions
which will be put behind paywalls, which will
be behind subscriptions. But I think it's also
got to fit. So something like... Let me tell
you something, which is a very varied entertainment
-based podcast. I don't know, because one week
we've got, you know, Catherine Ryan, who's obviously
a massive comedian. Then we'll have UFC, then
we'll have football, then we'll have, you know,
music with Lethal Bizzle. I don't think you're
going to get the sort of audience that's going
to go, right, I'm going to pay for the additional
content because it's so varied. However, obviously
with Jermaine's background, we're already sort
of working on a slate of shows at the moment.
Next one being football being an obvious place
for us to go, because again, there's a big sort
of market, a big market opportunity. With that,
I do think that there will be a lot of additional.
revenue streams that could potentially be things
like you know being behind a paywall would it
be a patreon would it be if we're going to bring
in an element of fantasy football would we let
people join our league would we come and do watch
alongs we would let people come and do you know
could we do something with the ballers league
for example well i think that lends itself more
towards it one of the big things and you know
they haven't really the will but i think the
rest of this football has been very much driven
the growth of that show via a newsletter i mean
Again, they haven't reinvented the wheel. Newsletters
have been a thing, but podcasters haven't traditionally
used them. Does a show like Let Me Tell You Something
need a newsletter? No, I don't think it does.
Does one about football? Yeah, I think it will.
So we're going to do it on a case -by -case and
a show -by -show basis. We won't be going one
-size -fits -all. Right, let's chuck everything
onto all the platforms for six months and then
we'll do a half an episode and the other half
you have to get on Patreon because I just don't
think it's going to work in that format, really.
Yeah, you will hear on Pod News Weekly in the
coming weeks, I'm a very auntie. patreon and
member for in the way that it's done i think
you split your audience and i think what you're
asking your audience to do and the creator to
do is have an open account then a private account
and then go left and right it needs to be in
one place at one time but we'll we'll talk about
that in the future but so given given that you
talked about you know goldhanger and the rest
is is their suite of podcasts are you going to
go through the moniker of naming all your shows
in a very similar way to get a brand stable environment
of them so there's brand recognition or are you
going to go and individualize your shows but
the plan is to individualize them because the
people who are behind them are all individuals
i think what goal hanger accidentally hit on
with one show name really working it's been a
brilliant bit of branding brilliant to be fair
like our first episode sorry our first show let
me tell you something like that lends itself
really nicely let me tell you something about
football let me tell you something about boxing
let me tell you something about but we'd already
sort of And brokered the deal in a way that that
wasn't going to work for us. So because there's
actually one of the sponsorship networks who
were in initial talks with like, that's a brilliant
brand and brand extension. I was like, yeah,
it really is annoyingly, but we can't really
use it in that instance. I also think that I
think that the rest is as a brand is good because
all the shows are brilliant. I don't think you
necessarily, you know, maybe 2 % of that audience
growth is down to it being part of the rest is
stable. The rest of it is down to it just being
really, really good content. So, yeah, we're
going to go down the individual option. Had I
have brokered the IP rights agreement, well,
let me tell you something, that might be a different
conversation, but hindsight is 20 -20. It is
indeed. Now, look, going forward then, so...
How big do you think you want this to be? Are
you going to be stateside? Are you going to go
international language? Where's the sky and the
limit? I can't say it's going international language
because, to be honest, it's just not a space
that I've been in. But this is where I have to
be really careful because I've been making podcasts
since 2017. As I mentioned, I've launched 187
shows for clients around the world. I operate
traditionally in the B2B. paid for production
space so clients like a ted baker for example
we've done their show earlier this year they'll
come to us go we want a podcast and we make it
based on making really good content but this
whole new space has got new opportunities so
i'm being very mindful to bring my you know so
and i've been around the radio and the branding
game for over 20 years i'm very mindful to bring
all that experience but also not bring my uh
my preconceived ideas to a certain extent but
i think that the pie of UK and English language
podcast is big enough in the here and now. Will
there be offshoots into other countries? Yeah,
for sure. You know, would we do something around
a particular sporting example? Again, with Jermaine's
background in football, it makes sense that we
would have an offshoot podcast for, you know,
if we'd have got our act together a bit quicker,
FIFA World Club Championships, for example. Will
we do something for the Euros and the World Cup?
Yes, we'll do that. But I think we will be plenty
busy enough without needing to venture into sort
of like... different languages and that kind
of stuff for me personally and again this is
you know just a personal choice i don't want
to have an acast number of shows under our stable
you know i don't want to be responsible for thousands
of shows i love the idea of a dozen or a couple
of dozen really really brilliant shows that are
very well curated that have got a great team
around them i've got brilliant producer short
form editor exec producer that's where i see
it being i love the for me if i'm looking at
it now in the next sort of where do we want to
go in 36 months i'm looking more at goal hanger
flight studio fellas studios rather than sort
of tried to become wandry i guess yeah and i
mean i mean wandry being you know the prime example
that then sells out to amazon and you know and
has the 300 podcasts in its stable um What keeps
you awake at night? What's the thing that worries
you? Is it market saturation? Are you going into
a market that's a very congested space? Is it
a revenue growth? Do you fear that we're plateauing
or there's much more growth to come from podcasting?
What keeps you awake at night when you start
this idea? I don't think anything really keeps
me up at night other than just literally the
workload of launching a new show. Anyone who's
done this before knows how much work goes into
it when you add into the fact that you've got
sort of big name talent and you've got lots of
logistics and there's a team involved in it and
all that kind of stuff. So logistically, it's
been a very fraught couple of months. But in
terms of what keeps me up at night in terms of
from a fear perspective, I think we've just got
so much further to go with podcasts. You look
at all the stats, you know, still under 50 %
of people are listening on a monthly basis. It's
just over a quarter of people listening on a
weekly basis. I still think we're not quite blue
ocean in the podcasting space, but we're definitely
not red ocean. We're maybe like a bit of a murky,
bluey purple, realistically. But I also think
that the cream will always rise to the top. It
doesn't matter how busy the space gets. Great
shows will find an audience and there's a great
opportunity. And the brilliant thing with how
we're doing it in terms of shared ownership with
our talent and shared IP with our talent is that
everyone's got a vested interest to pull as hard
as each other in the same direction. And we're
also in a really fortunate position because we've
got... you know, a sort of a, we've already had
three or four people literally the last day go,
oh, it's amazing what you're doing. Can we work
for you? Three out of those four are completely
not right for us as a fit. So we're in a great
fortunate position because we're bootstrapping
it and we're not taking on VC money to get this
up and running. We can decide who and what we
want to work on really. So it's just the only
thing that I guess would keep me up at night
is the excitement around the opportunity and
how big this can be really. Excellent. So that's
the way to do it. Stay awake at night thinking
of big dreams. That's better than, oh my God.
Than fear. Yeah. James, look, congratulations
on Pivot. Tell everyone if they want to find
out more about it, where would they go? Thank
you, Sam. So they can go to pivotproductionsgroup
.co .uk for more information. You can go and
check out our first show on the slate, which
is Let Me Tell You Something, which is on Apple,
Spotify and YouTube and not behind any paywalls.
Excellent. James Burt, thank you so much, mate.
Good luck and congratulations.