I'm Sean King, and I'm the chief revenue officer
and general manager for the commercial division
at Veritone. Veritone, we're an AI software company
where we help organizations in both the public
and private sector help make sense out of their
unstructured data, specifically meaning audio
and video. So across our organization, we ingest
about 150 ,000 hours of content a day. and append
kind of frame -by -frame analysis of what's taking
place in the audio or in the video, who's speaking,
what are they talking about, what objects, what
logos may be in the background. And we turn that
into kind of actionable data that they can use
for a litany of different opportunities across
their organization. We obviously have heard the
news about Wondery this week. What do you think?
What do you think went on there? Why have Amazon
made the big changes that they have? At the end
of the day, all these organizations make strategic
decisions about what their priorities are in
the organization. And then especially in an organization
as big as Amazon, what are those downstream implications,
broadly speaking, across that organization? But
in my opinion, that restructuring is what I'll
consider a little bit more of a recalibration.
their shift potentially for more of that traditional
studio models into more potentially integrated
audio ecosystems. I mean, obviously with having
Wondery and having Audible and having these different
groups, there's a natural opportunity to kind
of consolidate those different ecosystems. And
also at the same time, kind of set themselves
up. I mean, more and more podcasts are becoming
video orientated and more platform agnostic even
in those. Like even when I go through my social
feeds these days, just how many videos I'm watching
that is basically just a recording of a podcast
that I would likely listen to as well. And you're
just starting to see different ways in which
the medium is being consumed. And at the same
time, allowing their brands to... you know, potentially
be able to navigate some more of their kind of
what I'll consider platform control distribution
and monetization. And obviously, in an organization
that has so many assets in it from Amazon, if
you just think about it from their audio divisions,
their film divisions, their, you know, their
streaming platforms across that, you know, having
these abilities to be able to consolidate, I
mean, it's typically what you would expect to
see in these organizations. Yeah, yeah. And I
mean, it's interesting, we were looking at how
Wondery has done. Wondery has done more podcast
to TV conversions than any other company has.
has done. They've done particularly well in terms
of that. They've obviously released a massive
amount of content. But of course, Amazon being
Amazon, we can't quite see whether or not that
was a sustainable business model. What's your
gut feel in terms of that? Well, I mean, it's
a game of numbers. And those. And look, at the
end of the day, content is still king. You know,
I think a lot of the success that Wondery had
in that even dates back to Hernan and the founders
and having background in Fox and everything else
that's there. So being able to, you know, make
the right bets on what type of content and what
content and what things may be able to transcend
platforms and transcend, you know, from an audio
only, you know, medium into, you know, more storytelling
from those. But again, to that point. What a
wonderful opportunity in these areas and why
I've always loved the podcasting space from those
is. The barrier to entry in podcasting and being
able to be able to create this and be able to
do this, to be able to incubate, to really develop
these things and build that audience. I mean,
and build the storytelling elements of it there
to be able to kind of elevate that through the
different, you know, I'll consider entertainment
supply chains is is is. And I think just looking
at Amazon specifically and knowing that from
an audio to potentially a streaming platform
to Twitch, to video, to, you know, movies. and
everything else that they do. I mean, they have
an entire stack, so to speak. Is the revenue
for the podcast industry still very much focused
around host -read ads? I mean, clearly, when
you look at some of the content that Wondery
was producing, host -read ads are quite difficult
in that sort of narrative. you know, experience
anyway. But are we still essentially a host -read
ad industry or are we moving to something a bit
more complex? Well, I hope we're going to something
that's a healthy medium before. You know, I always
loved about the, what I always still love about
the podcasting space is, you know, it reminds
me of, you know, driving to work in the 90s.
And I had my favorite entertainment that I would
listen to. And it was structured in the timeline
that I would listen to it. And I would go to
those. And it's the trusted voices. It's on demand.
But the accessibility of it is just great. And
I think the host read ads is a special key component.
to podcasting but for podcasting to continue
to scale to continue to evolve there has to be
a healthy balance on being able to create and
develop what i'll consider the relationship and
the engagement and how do you support that with
other ads i mean we see this all the time in
traditionals you know you have you know let's
pick pick on tv for a second Okay, well, yeah,
you want to have your Super Bowl ad. You want
to have that tentpole opportunity. But as a standalone
basis, it's really hard to make that tentpole
event work if you don't have a supporting cast.
of advertisements and other medias and other
things taking place to make you leverage that
the most. And so it's similar here, in my opinion,
on the podcasting spaces. You have to leverage
that relationship that you have the opportunity
to with the host, but you also have to support
it with everything there to make sure that you're
staying consistent. What's coming? Who's the
stranger at the gate that your dog is barking
at? What should we be worried about? uh in the
future in terms of the podcast industry how are
things changing i mean i think things are changing
so much as we're seeing such acceleration and
all these other different platforms and i do
apologize for my i'm i'm afraid to go down and
don't worry about the dog 200 dog downstairs
is 200 pound dog but but i think what is changing
is being able to find and where and navigate
the connections across these multi -platforms
you know what is your core podcasting group that's
listening to it are you live streaming that and
that audience on youtube how does that transcend
over to the different social networks either
on instagram or facebook or tiktok or any of
these others you know your audience just pool
just got much more fragmented and and and how
do you make sure you're you know staying connected
And as a brand, how you're making sure that you're
trying your best to uniquely be able to serve
the target customer that you're trying to see
without inundating them all over the place. It's
a challenging balance that's a requirement of,
you know, smart people and good technology and
better data. that will allow you to be able to
help make the right decisions. I mean, I guess
the world of podcasting has seen what TV has
seen in the last decade, what radio has seen
in the last decade, in that instead of being
consumed on one platform, whether that's live
TV or whether that's AM, FM. all of a sudden
things are being consumed on lots of different
platforms. How complicated does that make it
in terms of advertising and reaching audiences?
It's challenging in a case because you're talking
about diverse medias that have very diverse measurements.
And because they have very diverse measurements
means they have very different forms of currency.
And trying to figure out that, you know, trying
to make $1 kind of equal the same across those.
It's very different when you're looking at a
television audience measured on, you know, how
many thousands Nielsen or Comscore may estimate
may have watched or listened to this across AM,
FM or television. How does that differ when you're
listening to it from your, you know, Apple streaming
device? Or how does that differ when you're downloading
through iTunes? you know you all very different
unique and all the currencies are a little different
on that uh so it's really the right mix of you
know your media mix modeling and and how you're
doing that so i always you know would advise
everyone to think about and agree on you know
there's not the silver bullet quite yet But you
at least have to stand on what you're going to
put your value, your importance against and define
on what your measurement is and how you're going
to measure success. And then you're going to
have to look at each one of these things somewhat
uniquely different, uniquely to make sure that,
you know, you're accounting for it appropriately.
And in a future where podcasting is certainly
talking to some people, podcasting is essentially
shifting to YouTube. Is that a good future for
where the industry is going in your view or where
do we go from that? I think it's a good complementary
piece to those. At the end of the day, it was
true 100 years ago and it'll be true in 100 years.
Content is king. And what's wonderful about both
YouTube and podcasting is, again, as I was mentioning
earlier, that low barrier to entry. on i mean
on how you can create and how you'll be able
to do that and there are people like myself like
i don't like to sit down and watch a podcast
on youtube like and it's it's for those i like
to engage in a podcast like just purely just
me and my ears It's my opportunity. It's my focus.
That's how I enjoy it. That's how I get the most
out of it. You know, when I'm going to sit down
and watch something, I'm not going to want to
watch that. But there are people that are probably
the antithesis of me and like to have that sight,
sound, and motion with everything. I look at
it as if I watch my daughter. I mean, and she
does everything on YouTube. Very different than
me. But it's just all you're doing is you're
making sure that your content is accessible and
all the different fragmented vehicles that are
there to consume it. And, you know, and you're
just meeting your your audience where they're
at. Sean, it's been great to chat. Thank you
so much for your time. My pleasure. Thanks for
having me, James.