1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,000 Hi, I'm Pary Bell. I'm the Chief Executive Officer of The Podcast Exchange. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,000 And later, we're going to be talking about podcasting in Canada. 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:18,000 The Podcast Exchange is a... I would call it a boutique agency in Canada that specializes in understanding 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:25,000 the research and the platform of podcasting with a rich history of being a first mover in Canada. 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:32,000 And it offers services of helping brands and agencies connect with listeners on podcasts 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000 by representing publishers that are in Canada, both Canadian and international publishers. 7 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:44,000 We also offer research and production assistance and other services. 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:52,000 But the majority of our business really is in, let's call it, evangelizing the benefits of the podcasting platform 9 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:59,000 to agencies and brands who are looking to really connect the dots with their audience and their targeted users. 10 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,000 So that's where we live. 11 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:08,000 And you joined from Rogers Sports and Media and transitioning away, I guess, from sort of sports broadcasting 12 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:14,000 and sports work into podcasting. What was your initial impression when you joined TPX earlier this year 13 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,000 in terms of the Canadian market? 14 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,000 Yeah, I have been working in the Canadian media industry since 2000. 15 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,000 So I've been a pioneer on the digital space. 16 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,000 And I've seen the digital evolution from traditional broadcasting and traditional magazines 17 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,000 and the growing pains that went with it. 18 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:43,000 And in stepping into the podcast industry, I've noticed it feels a lot like 2009 or 2010 did digitally 19 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:50,000 where there was a race to acquire inventory and scale and learnings from the past. 20 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:56,000 And so I find it a very interesting, almost Wild West, where it's finding its footing, 21 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,000 both in Canada and internationally. 22 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:03,000 And there is no doubt that the platform is growing in leaps and bounds. 23 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,000 Everyone, even my own 79-year-old mother, is listening to podcasts. 24 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,000 And it's amazing how passionate people are about it. 25 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:19,000 But what I would say is lagging is connecting the dots for marketers to understand how rich a platform it is. 26 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,000 I think there's still a concern over the measurability, 27 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:29,000 over the inherently trackable digital behaviour that can be challenging in podcasting. 28 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:37,000 And so there is a resistance to putting what I would say is probably the right amount of budget into podcasting. 29 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,000 But there's still hesitation and there's still a little aversion to that at the moment. 30 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,000 That's my broad picture. 31 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,000 And do you think the measurement piece is just a misunderstanding, 32 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,000 or do we have somewhere to go in terms of the industry? 33 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:58,000 I think if you're only comparing it to digital platforms, I think that was where some of the challenges are. 34 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:05,000 If you look at media more holistically, you understand that magazines were measured for 100 years 35 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,000 without actually any tracking or any pixels or any attribution. 36 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,000 You simply found a sample that you agreed to and you move forward. 37 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,000 Same thing with television, same thing with outdoor signage. 38 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,000 You get comfortable with the measurement. 39 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:27,000 I would say podcasting is still in that stage of there's a desire for it to be as completely digital as other digital platforms. 40 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:35,000 Yet the convenience of it is by being downloaded and being offline, there are certain things you can't actually get. 41 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,000 And so from a user perspective, it's actually really nice and convenient. 42 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,000 But from a deeper tracking perspective, it's not there. 43 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:53,000 And so I think the industry needs to figure out that balance point where you understand the values of the platform and the limitations and you move forward. 44 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,000 So I'd say it's more a nascent issue. 45 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,000 It's still not understood and it hasn't come to a comfortable spot. 46 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:08,000 One thing I find incredible having stepped into this industry relatively recently is the notion of collaboration across the whole industry. 47 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:18,000 That there are competitors who understand that it's on all of us to increase the awareness of what podcasting can do. 48 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,000 And that relationship with the listener and how intimate it is. 49 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,000 We are all, I mean the old saying of all boats rise with the tide. 50 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,000 We all will benefit if we work together. 51 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:37,000 It's been fascinating to read some of the stuff that you've been writing about with regards to ad standardization, about a community. 52 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,000 I have felt a sense of community even with our competitors. 53 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:50,000 So one of the things I've done is I've been meeting with our competition and I haven't worked in any other media industry where it hasn't been knives out. 54 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,000 This has been incredible. 55 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:57,000 There is a genuine interest for everyone to make podcasting successful. 56 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,000 So I found that really inspiring. 57 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,000 You have a big neighbor to the south of us. 58 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:13,000 What's the difference do you think between the US podcast industry and the Canadian podcast industry? 59 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:22,000 It's both a blessing and a challenge at times in terms of the US culture does definitely roll into Canada. 60 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:28,000 So in terms of often the biggest shows and the most popular shows are the ones that are in the US. 61 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:37,000 Canadian culture in Quebec, the French culture is very similar to Australia where there is this notion of nationalism. 62 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:44,000 And your top shows are going to be intrinsically French Canadian and they're going to not be replaced by France. 63 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:51,000 But in English Canada, our biggest and most popular shows are generally going to be the US shows. 64 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:58,000 The challenge with the Canadian market is that we are a fraction of the scale in terms of population. 65 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:04,000 We have a community that tends to be...we're very cautious people. 66 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:13,000 I think Canadians historically have taken risks, but we are often very conservative on our approach and we like to wait and see. 67 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:19,000 And so it puts us in a situation where there's tremendous growth happening in podcasting in Canada. 68 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:26,000 But we are probably four or five years behind the trend line of what it is in the US per capita. 69 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:32,000 And so there is still opportunity. I see it as continuing to evolve, but we're behind. 70 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:41,000 What podcasts do you represent in terms of ad sales? You're representing Canadian stuff or is it more than that? 71 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,000 We have a mix. We have some brands that we have helped get up and going. 72 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:55,000 We host, we provide nurturing and support with them and they are good Canadian grassroots businesses like the Looney Hour. 73 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:03,000 We have brands that we represent in Canada, some exclusive like Chorus, some non-exclusive like the CBC. 74 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:11,000 We work with great Canadian publishers, but we also do a lot of our work is with some amazing US content, 75 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:17,000 with iHeart Media, with All Things Comedy, Soundrise, with WNYC. 76 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:27,000 We've been extending our own networks and we're doing a lot of business development around trying to find appropriate premium publishers to partner with. 77 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:36,000 How many podcast ad companies are global in nature? You've got Spotify out there, you've got Acast out there, 78 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:50,000 Global's DAX, although that's sort of changed a little bit in this market. What advantages does TPX have in being a Canadian focused on Canada? 79 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:57,000 I think it's another - again I step back into the media industry, there is something great about being Canadian, 80 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:07,000 about being focused on Canadian people, on Canadian listeners, on Canadian brands. There is always a strong global presence. 81 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:15,000 In digital in the past it was, it's been and continues to be Google and Facebook and Instagram and TikTok. 82 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,000 It was Yahoo in the past, it was, it has been other brands, I guess they're still around. 83 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:28,000 But in terms of dominance there was always a look at Canada from the international perspective as, well we'll just open it as a sales territory. 84 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:36,000 Without really understanding the culture, without really understanding the problems that marketers in Canada might have that might be different from Sweden, 85 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,000 or they might be different from the UK, or they might be different from America. 86 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:46,000 And so one advantage that we have is we are very Canadian and we're very focused on Canadian solutions. 87 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:57,000 So we are 100% Canadian, we are not selling internationally, we are focused on monetizing and helping Canadian marketers connect with Canadian listeners. 88 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:05,000 I think that often times global companies look at Canada as a little bit more of a, you're just like the America market. 89 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:11,000 And so we are often treated very homogeneously and thought of as very similar to our American cousins. 90 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:18,000 Once you step into Canada you realize that there is a nationalism, there is a unique identity and culture. 91 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:23,000 And so our approach is very much through that Canadian lens. 92 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,000 And where do you see the future going in terms of podcast advertising? 93 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:38,000 And I guess I'm particularly interested in whether there is something that the industry could be doing to help the industry grow. 94 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,000 I'm really excited about the opportunity. 95 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:49,000 I think as the media world gets more and more challenging to prove the return on ad spend, 96 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:54,000 as marketers have more and more challenge in defending their budgets, 97 00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:03,000 one of the really interesting things is podcasting is one of the platforms where the data shows that if it is good advertising, 98 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:10,000 it's contextual and you're leveraging that host listener relationship, people don't mind listening to the ads. 99 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,000 In fact, they will listen to the ads and they'll act on the ads. 100 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:22,000 And so I think that there will be a bit of an awakening as more marketers are actually looking to legitimize where they're spending their money. 101 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,000 And they will find that they will start to increase. 102 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:35,000 So the first step is trying it and then you'll get they'll get good feedback, whether it's through brand attribution, through brand list studies. 103 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:40,000 There is a way to show that there is ROI on their spend. 104 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,000 I think it's getting harder and harder and harder for marketers to defend that. 105 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,000 And so ultimately, this area of growth is it's fascinating to watch. 106 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,000 Thank you so much for your time. 107 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:56,000 Our pleasure. Thank you.